Personal Trust Communities in Adoption with Mike Thorne - Ep 163

Welcome to this episode of Unraveling Adoption, an intentional space to delve into adoption's complexities together. I'm Beth Syverson. I'm an adoptive mom of a talented and courageous 20-year-old son, Joey, who's trying to launch as an adult. I'm walking beside him while working on my own personal growth and healing.

I'm also a certified coach, helping primarily adoptive parents. Joey and I are committed to helping anyone impacted by adoption, and we want to help the general public understand adoption's complexities better too. So listeners, have you found your tribe yet? Do you have people in your life that are available for you when you need help, that really get you? Do you feel comfortable asking them for help? Well, today's guest is Mike Thorne, an adoptee who

is a community and corporate leader. His excellent TED Talk is called, Three Words That Can Transform Our Lives, and They Aren't What You Think. His memoir is called Hustle with Heart, Unlocking Self-Worth Through Personal Trust Communities. He

has learned how to ask for help and to gather a supportive team around himself. He's here to talk about how we in the adoption community can better support each other. Thanks so You're welcome, Beth. Thank you for having me and for the great work you and Thank you. Thank you so much. Glad to have you on board. Well, first, I always want to highlight adoptee stories. So what part of your adoption When I was nine years old, I was living in Sturbridge, Massachusetts,

about 45 minutes outside of Boston. And my parents asked me to come down into the family room in the basement of the house. And it's the old shag carpeting, the wood panel side. And my favorite part was the tinfoil on the TV so we could watch the Bruins games. Oh, yes. And they sat on the couch next to each other. And I sat on my favorite beanbag chair. And my parents just looked at each other and looked back at me and said, Michael, we just want to tell you that we love you very much and

that you're adopted. And it was like, boom, my whole life just shattered my self-worth, my who I was shattered. And that began my journey of understanding what exactly adoption Wow, that story is so vivid. And the fact that you remember all those details, it's like a major milestone, probably the major milestone of your life. And did your parents have many conversations with you right afterwards, like in the following weeks and

No. This was back in the early 70s when nobody talked about this stuff and it was not supposed to be talked about. So it was more like it felt like they were just sharing a piece of information. So I was informed. but had no tools, resources or assets to go find. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was not I had to kind of navigate it myself. Not Yeah, we're not throwing them under the bus. That was the way it was back At all. because many people weren't told at all. So

they're probably like, look, we did this. And he's only nine. Yes. But as a nine year old, you're like a person that's like, you're developed your identity or you know, whoo, that is really, really rough. Do you consider yourself a late discovery adoptee or LDA? Do you label yourself like that? Or is I don't even, I haven't thought about that, honestly. I sort of just navigated life, but I guess if that is a term that exists today, it didn't exist back then.

I guess I would be considered, because to your point, at nine, you're old enough to understand that something happened, there's something going on, but not able to process it the way I would describe it. Yeah, I would call you an LDA. I think if you remember being

Well, I think I think that the way we're supposed to do it nowadays is to tell your child as soon as they're in your arms, however old they are, and just make it part of their story and just not have So I think there's a lot of discussion around age appropriate communication. My daughter is a teacher in second grade, and she has usually half a dozen kids every year. they're dealing with some dynamic related to adoption. Yep, fostering or

something. And all the parents really struggle with what are they supposed to say and not say, and that's second grade kind of thing, which is close to that eight, nine year old age. Yeah. I go down the last three or four years and she has a family segment that she does with the kids. And I typically go present my family to the kids. And she has told me every year that the kids that have some connection to a lost parent or adoption, it's super powerful for them to hear somebody as an adult talk

about this loss. And so according to her, the kids really grow out of that. And even at second grade, it's like

I said, I lived it. So I know it still means you really get it more than people Oh, for sure. And that's beautiful that you do that because the other kids that aren't adopted, they come away with a better understanding of, oh, some kids were not given the same playing pieces, you know, for the game. Yeah. They have some extra obstacles and that's good for them to understand, have more compassion. Wow.

Well, thank you for sharing that story. And it sounds like a struggle that you've dealt with your whole life and that probably you'll continue dealing with. But it seems like you've done OK for yourself. You've been a leader in corporate world and you've also been a leader in the adoption community. You were a board member

for 10 years at NCFA, the National Council for Adoption. And I wanted to talk to you about that because historically that organization has been the purpose is to serve adoptive parents, I think. Adoptive parents' interests and the adoption profession's interests, not adoptees, but you were there brought in, I think,

as an adoptee on purpose. Like they wanted more adoptive voices, It started when I was watching TV during National Adoption Month and I just really reconciled with who my family really was, meeting my biological mother and all that. I read about their work was education, research, and advocacy. And I thought, boy, that's an area that I think is much needed. And then at the end, they said, if anybody wants to share their adoption story,

please send this address. And that's really what was the first time in my life I actually shared it openly. And so I sent the letter in, and they reached back out and said, boy, we would love to have a voice from adoptees in the organization. And so the evolution of NCFA really has become all the people that are involved in adoption and how do we provide the best education, research, and advocacy for all of them and not

really gravitate to one or the other. But it's been an evolution because the adoptee

Yeah, which is unfortunate. And I'm glad that they're changing that. And No, there was one gentleman. He had been on the board for literally 35 years. Okay. Sharp. He's also an adoptee. But I think where mine came in, I was younger, and I was in the business world. He had been retired many years was probably in his maybe even 70 by the time I got in there. Okay. So I think they just wanted a really new relevant voice. And since that time, we've got a couple other new board members that

are also adoptees. Okay. One owns a nonprofit strategy firm. So it's been an evolution. Yeah, it's a really good dynamic board right now. Very good. I love hearing that and that more adoptee voices are coming on board. And when we talked earlier, you talked about the most recent conference you had and they had an adoptee panel. Yes. There were four of us in the adoptee panel from all different experiences. And we also just finished an adoptee research project, which is on the website, which is

fantastic. It's the largest research project ever done on adoptees. So we really are trying to dig and understand where their perspectives are coming from. Yeah, the conference was last year in St. Louis and so many people come up after because mostly the adoption community has actually been gravitating towards

all but the adoptee. So for them to hear different adoptees, different perspectives, some international, some domestic and what have you, foster care, they said was super powerful for them, especially the moms coming in who had adopted children without any knowledge of all the background story.

And the other part was several people said, I've not heard a male. I was only male on the panel actually speak openly about their experience in a vulnerable way. That was new to me. I didn't know that was a big deal, but her son was adopted and Oh yeah, that's a huge thing. Everywhere I go, there's like 80% women, white women, also has white people too. So the adoption space is filled with white women talking about their story, which

is relevant. I mean, everyone's story is relevant. But on our podcast, I try very hard to go every other episode is a man or non-binary person. because I want to balance it out. I want my son to hear people that are similar to him. And the male voice is so important too. And I'm glad you're available and out speaking. I met you on a panel with Simon Ben. He did a webinar about advocating for kids and Yeah,

so it's great to have more men in this space. And I'm so glad that NCFA is opening up a bit more to adoptees. I think that's really important. And I know there is a segment of the adoption community that just seems very blocked against organizations like NCFA, but I think it's important to recognize that Even big, long-standing organizations can shift and change and grow and maybe hear more closely what adoptees are asking for. And you're part of that change. So congratulations on

that. And I think it's good for us all to remain open

Yeah, it's not an easy thing to do because you're trying to run an organization with members and there's lots of viewpoints and you're still going to deliver the expectations and revenue. But I think the thing that I would say that I loved about National Council of Adoption more than anything, Ryan Hammond, the CEO, is terrific. He's got a research background. He's just an incredible human being. And he leads from a space of, I always call

it a strong spine and soft heart. You've got to make the right choices to move the business forward, but you do it with a soft heart. And so we've always tried to be down the middle of trying to say, hey, here's where to think about a particular issue or legislative piece of document or advocacy work. And Ryan is always open to have a conversation and listen. And he's only been the CEO. So I became chair two and a half years ago, and we hired Ryan into that role. He'd been with the organization

in a different role. And so I think that's another part of why the organization is evolving is Ryan is a young leader with his own adoption child

story. And then Andrew, who's taken over as chairman for me is terrific as adoptive mom. So I think there's an evolution that's going on there. But there's also towing a line of members who want to talk about certain Sure. It's nothing ever shifts immediately and it's always an evolution and which voices get heard. And well, No, I spent 10 years there and just finished as chairman. And what I want to do now is I live in the state of Maine and I hear and see an awful lot

of challenges here connected to adoption and foster care. So I stepped back in here and I ended May 1st and now I'm trying to find an organization up here that I can connect to. or start to build a better understanding of how adoption is impacting people and kids. So I'm meeting a lot of people, politicians, nonprofits, Nice. That sounds great. You're using all of your skills. And your

book talks about creating personal trust communities. And I want to hear what that means, but would you like to give a little background about your

corporate training and your corporate leadership and so they know where Yeah. So first half of my career was in sales and business development, and the last half was running businesses. And all those businesses were reimagined, rethinking businesses, is why I got thrown in there. And it wasn't planned, it just worked out that way. And the one thing that I uncovered is that there's a profit loss. If I said P&L, most people think of a business operating. What I

uncovered and where my gift was, was on people and listening. Ah, different P&L. I got fired at age 40 and the first time I was ever president. And it was because of body language and emotional issues and so on. And I learned a lot from that. And when I came out of that, the feedback from the organization that worked for me and with me was like, hey, we're going to miss all the one-on-ones and the time you spend trying to understand us and our stories and what we're up against. They

said that was unusual as a leader. But I also got feedback from people that were peers of mine that, you know, I called getting hit by a two by four cushion on it. They basically shared

feedback in a way that I didn't see it as a judgment. I saw it as helping me get better. And I started to realize that there are people in your life that if you listen to them with openness, they're there to help you grow and become better. And that became people I trusted versus people that are judging you for good or bad or what have you. And that was a massive step. And I really spent time trying to say, can I go find a company, an organization, a business and

a leadership team that thinks that way? so I can continually evolve as a leader. And that's why I left the sporting goods industry and went to Yankee Candle. And I've spent the last 20 years of my life trying to develop that people listen inside for myself and for others. And I've noticed that the business is really growing when you

do that. And I now have a statistic from the Harvard Business Review that actually defines a purpose-driven organization actually can now deliver others on the EBITDA, which is always the profit discussion we want us to have, by 12.5% over four years. Now I actually have a viable statistic. Wow. So instead of just being pushed and saying, well, Mike, that's great. You want to do all that stuff with

people, but I don't care about that. I now have data that says if you do both these, you take care of the financials and the people, the business will grow. And so I've spent 20 years working through all that and spending a lot of time and I'm seeing enormous benefit. Unlocking leaders to become human beings is what space I do today. Yeah. Wow. That's really great. Do you think being an adoptee gave you a special insight into this particular piece of your business life?

Yeah, I believe and I got this from a guy named Ed Milad who has a podcast and I think it goes, you are most equipped to help those that you used to be. You're most equipped to help. So in other words, I was this person who was always trying to be perfect, always judging myself on whether I fit in a perfect and I've transitioned to this. This is who I am. This is what I'm all about. I've got my trust community around me. I've wrestled the ground who I am. And now that I'm with other people and

I do executive coaching or working with leaders, I can quickly pick up on there's something locking them up. There's something happened to them that we need to explore and understand. And so I think that's the gift I bring and then I surround myself with experts in areas I don't have the expertise in. I have knowledge, I have interest

in but not expertise. And so by building that internal community to company or externally in my own life has been a huge, huge unlock to be more effective and happier That's great. That's amazing. And as an adoptee, I know my son and I've talked to many, many adult adoptees that have that kind of perfectionism, people pleasing kind of nature, because like, it's super deep, like you literally don't want to get

Right. That was exactly what it was. I walked down Blueberry Lane where I live when I was nine years old and thought, Boy, my friends, Ricky Farr and Jimmy Nash, they weren't adopted. I was, I adopted. And I thought at that point in time, I'm never, ever going to be someone who's going to be needed to be given up again. That's how I got into sports. Sports became the place I could be who I wanted to be. The scoreboard measured who I was and whether I was successful and if

I played. And so that's not a great model, but that's where I sort of gravitated until I realized that's not the great way to live either. Yeah, I bet sports, any sort of overachieving kind of situation. I think a lot of people go one way or the other. They either like really try to overachieve or they just say fuck it all and just don't Yeah, something you're probably more involved in and have a

deeper understanding, but I've always tried to get my head around. Like, I know people that have six kids, they were all put up for adoption, one makes it and five don't or whatever. I've been trying to get to the bottom of, is there some way, and it probably isn't easy, but I just think the further you are away from center, in other words, I'm a white male, I had a very good upbringing, adopted, versus I'm a person of color, I'm a female, I have trauma. It's harder and

harder and harder. And so when you talk to people in various communities, you can get a lot of pushback and a lot of venom coming at you when you start to talk about this stuff. And I think you just have to realize it's really nuanced and you give people space and grace to unravel because it's deep. There's some real deep, as you well know. Oh, yeah. And I'm trying to figure out if there's people that really want to get unlocked, how can I help them?

If they've got an adoption background, then even more powerful for me. Yeah, I agree with you about those layers, you know, adoption is a gigantic layer. So you get that one, you get a big giant point for that. And then some people also like my son is also a person of color. He's also I drag him across the world through a different country, then I got divorced, you know, so each person just gets handed a pile of

whatever, some people's pile is bigger than others. But you know, everybody gets to figure out how to how they want to deal with that pile. You don't get to choose which pile you've been given most of the time, but you get to choose how you manage I was angry until I met my biological mother. And

I remember sitting in that room with my siblings who I met for the first time and everyone's chatting and trying to understand what happened because they had a different father than I did and so on. I remember sitting in that room and thinking to myself, well, I'm actually very grateful because I was given up for adoption at birth. So I realized at that point in time how grateful I was. And that's when I really started to say, wait a minute here, there's

probably other people like me that are struggling with this. Yeah. And that's when I love your term layers. That's when I started realizing a lot of layers. Yeah. Mine isn't super deep. Well, yours sounds very, Yeah, even your half siblings who are kept, they have layers to they lost a sibling, and they might have grown up with other things. I mean, everybody's got their things. Everybody's got their things. So tell me about these personal trust communities. It sounds like a fascinating concept.

And so important. I think I do this, but I just didn't know Yeah, there's a lot of people that talk about networking and going network and I find that to be very transactional and also

very stressful for people. My belief is that you spend time, really there's a lot of work behind the personal trust means, but once you have clarity where you're going in life and declare it, sort of the North Star, which is the work I would say you do first, but then you've got to ask yourself, who are those people that are going to help you cross that bridge where you want to get to in life? And I realized even myself, I might be training for an event. I love doing sports events. So I was

training for an Ironman. And so my mother was in my trust community, but she's not the right person to be telling her what I wanted to do. She's going to try to protect me and say, oh, don't do Yes, that's why the community has physical, intellectual, emotional, social, and spiritual, because these different people have expertise that can help you in different aspects of your life. You know, I have a mental skills coach, Tim, who helps me intellectually and emotionally a lot of

times. I don't feel like I'm really stressed or I'm really not feeling great. I describe it as, Tim, I can text and say, Tim, I need some

help. And I know on the other end of it, And this is just a visual. Tim looks at his phone and says, oh, Mike needs help. Let me look at my account and see when I can get to him. And when he gets back to me, and then we have a conversation, he's not solving my situation. But I know he's listening to me and hearing me and trying to help me get through it. I get off the phone and feel like I'm lifted back up again. And I'm back in the

middle of the trampoline bouncing up and down. I have a priest, Father John, who I met in fourth grade, who's still a very good friend of mine. So spiritually, I talked to him about many things. Now, it doesn't mean I agree with the Catholic Church on several things, and we have lots of issues, but I know I can call him. We can have conversations at a very deep level that nobody else I could have. And he'll share with me both ideas, read this book, do this. And so those are the

people in your life that you need to sit down and say, who are they? Sometimes they could be a podcast person that you just admire. It could be a book person, author. So that'd be an actual live person, but it's nice when you have those. And so I think it's just physically, intellectually, emotionally, social and spiritual to find one or two people to get started. And eventually it'll start to blossom and you'll have all these people that

That's so great. And I think a lot of people just expect maybe their spouse to be all of those things, or their best friend or whatever. And there's no one that can hit the right buttons for you for each of those. Like your mother is not going to be a good Ironman coach, not at all. She'd be like, Oh, honey, you're gonna You're going to break something. So she did. Yeah, but you find another athlete. Yeah, that's a great example.

And I love that. And I know that in the adoption community, we definitely all need our advocates and our people that get us. So maybe we in the adoption community, we all also need an adoption person on the side there. But can you talk a little bit about how particularly in

I think it's super important because the people that you're going to connect to, and I'll give you an example. So the person who I ended up using to help train me for the Ironman, her name was Susan, had an adopted child. And so when I was going through the training and it was a daunting, and I ran a 5K and now I'm going to do an Ironman, it's crazy. Oh my gosh. But she knew what adoptees have been through. And so she knew, she knew there

was going to be some challenges for me that other people wouldn't recognize. And so her background around adoption was super helpful to me in terms of being able to navigate some of the things that maybe I would deal Yeah, like we had a big storm and the race was going to be in the ocean. And I live on the ocean. I call her. I said, Susan, I don't think I can do this. It's really scary. And she said, Mike, take a deep breath. I want you to put your wetsuit on. I want you to walk down to

the ocean and just walk in it. Don't worry about swimming. Just walk in and get comfortable with the water. Start trusting yourself. And she did it in such a way that I didn't feel threatened. Like, what are you, a dummy? You've got a race in a week and you're so afraid of the water. Like, what's wrong with you? And I had a coach when I first started on the swimming side of it who treated me that way. And he was an expert swimming coach.

He was like, well, how do you don't know how to swim? And it really made me feel like, OK, I'm not worthy. I can't do this. Yeah. Susan said to me, Mike, why don't you come visit me? It was a two and a half hour ride. I'll get you in the water and let's just talk about swimming. And for two hours, I did not feel threatened. I did not

feel unsafe. I didn't feel judged. And she taught me to swim and then she gave me some videos and she just supported me all the way through that swimming piece, which was where I was scared the most, versus the original swimming coach, who again, he was very confident. He had the credentials to be a great coach, but he had no understanding of why this perfectionism and this fear was coming because it was a little nine-year-old boy coming back and saying, oh

my God, I'm going to get abandoned. I think someone with her

context, she understood could help me would be the best example I Oh, that's a beautiful example. And that shame in any form is like poison to my son. And I bet to most adoptees, you just can't shame anything. Punishment or anything degrading. Nope. It does not work. It backfires every single time. So that's a really

great insight and beautiful that you found a coach that suited you. And I bet for a lot of adoptees, they need to find, this is why the adoption community, these groups on Facebook and whatever, all these support groups are so important because a lot of times maybe their adoptive parent might not be the person they can talk to about their adoption. But they can find other people that totally get it and they don't have to apologize for anything or feel grateful

for anything. They can just be all who they I agree, but I'd be curious. I think the challenges for the parents, at least the experiences I've had, is they're so unsure of themselves and on how to handle all these things. They, a lot of times, compound the situation because they don't know how to handle it. It's tough enough raising. I've got three daughters, 33, 31, and

29. It's hard enough raising daughters who haven't had that trauma, whatever. I think it's hard because people are struggling trying to find the kind of communities where they can have those kind of dialogues and get comfortable and feel safe in the spaces and courageous and start sharing stuff and then leveraging that, try to live the I don't know. It's been hard to find those spaces. That's why the one

we had the other day with Simon was beautiful. I talked to Simon about how do we expand this concept and get a bigger section of community of people that can share books or people like you to talk to because I think that's what's missing. All I see on social media is a lot of negative on adoption in general. A Yeah, there is a lot of negative energy and people can sometimes get stuck in a loop. It's like, oh, and just just convecting and

sharing all the negative stuff, which is important to do, I think. But if you get stuck in it, it's just like, ah, so finding those exit ramps where you can find some healing, find some transformation, find some understanding and working through would be ideal. And I definitely think that adoptive parents need to find spaces too, where

we can talk about all of the stuff that's so painful for us. I mean, many of us came from infertility, that's a huge pain and loss and watching our kids try to self-destruct is not easy to do and feeling guilt or disappointment or shame or whatever we're feeling. So finding our own part of the constellation to connect with and then also these groups like Simon put together where everyone in the adoption constellation can come together, I think

both of those are super important. And I think that would align with your personal trust communities, right? You know, you've got to find a number of people to surround yourself that are positive and trying to help you Yeah, I think the struggle I've noticed and observed, and it's not just in this space, is that a lot of the nonprofits that are designed to try to help make the community better, they need income to drive what they want to go do, so they become very protectionist about their

particular organization. So, for example, I went around and tried to find all the organizations, and I thought our outcomes are to have less kids in foster care, better outcomes for children and for the parents who are trying to have children through adoption, build families that

way. but they're all hung up and I kind of understand on one hand they're hung up in their own little world and what they're trying to do and if I just had more money for myself it's like yeah but you're doing one aspect of it you're providing clothes let's say for kids who don't if we could somehow as a community work together and then drive it forward with the outcome being we have better outcomes for everybody but it's really hard to find enough of those organizations that

aren't worried about their own little world they live in because their

money is... A lot of the funding comes from an outside source. And I've had those conversations, which is why it's taken me a little bit longer to figure out what role can I play to help. And that's been challenging. And I've talked to other people and they say, well, that's because you have a lot of passionate people that are running these nonprofits that went to their own experience, so they want to solve it. they

don't have experience about thinking about the broader picture. And that's the role people keep saying, you could play that, Mike. That's what National Council Yeah, I think you definitely have a very unique window into this, because you get the adoption trauma piece, you get how this late discovery adoption at nine years old, totally affected you. So you're not trying to downplay any of

that. But you also have this, you know, from your corporate leadership skills, and what you've learned being in business, you can see this big picture and how maybe I think the thing that you have to figure out is everybody has different skill sets. And we have to find the right kind of people with different skill sets. And so it's not just grabbing any

organization, you've got to have the right mindset and skill sets. And so yes, but I'd want to be very selective about it because just because your title says you run an adoption or this, doesn't mean you're a great fit for this particular. That's why I like Simon a lot. Simon seems to have a good mindset about how to make this work. And the group of people he had, there was a lot of energy on

that. So I think that's the kind of group. If you can find that, maybe it's the big group that's sort of doing a global look at it, but then each locally trying to figure out how to find those people and start to drive this thing forward. Instead, what happens is we have people that are either so deep into it that you can't see the forest, the trees, or you have politicians who are beholden to somebody else telling them they got to go do this to get. And

I think that's really the difficulty. And so I think you have to be in it for the right reasons and said, I want better outcomes. It's not

Well, I have a feeling you are going to make a huge difference in whatever you end up doing up in Maine or if you do something more globally or in the larger space of the adoption world. I think you have a very unique set of tools and experiences. So more power to

you. I think that's great. Thank you. Is there anything else you'd like to mention that I I think the one thing is for those that are listening is we have a tendency as human beings to live in our past and our history, and we chain ourselves to it versus trying to say, what are our dreams and wishes? And we're afraid that that'll never happen. I know that was with me. It was like, we're never

going to get there. We put this head trash in us. So I think for people, they could just maybe spend some time thinking about this place where they really want to be. And they'll know they're there. when it really scares them, but they get super excited about it, but it's not dangerous. And when you get to that place and you've got your feeling, write that down, may take three or four times to go do it. When you get to that, that's when

you know that's where you want to be. And then you start to figure out who are the people around you to help you take on that journey because it's not going to be overnight. So I would just say just sort of just people try to step back, find that space where you take a nap, take a walk, whatever it is. My wife likes to drive in the car and just say, what is it that I really want, that North Star? Everybody has it. They

tell me they don't. I coach a lot of people on that. And once they get there, boy, they're scared like crazy, but they're also like excited. Excited and scared. What's that from? That is from Into the Woods. I love that. Excited and scared. You know, there's so many things we do in life that are exciting and scary. And if you just avoid them, then life gets really boring. So yeah, not dangerous. Yeah. Protect yourself. But yeah, go

a little bit close to that edge. Like, OK, this is a little outside my comfort zone, but it can really help a lot of people. So that's

But if you do it without having any support or having the right people with you, I mean, there's enough history that says when we got boat anchors, people are going to pull you down and say you can't do it. Oh, yeah. That's why that trusting of people that are going to keep you centered on that trampoline and make sure you're doing OK. I think they're combined together. But that's the only thing I would say is try to get out of your history and

memories. Understand them. They're never going to go away. They're always going to be there. They're going to pull you back periodically. But if you get this community. Yeah. I That sounds amazing. Well, everyone go watch Mike's TED Talk, three words that can transform our lives and read his book, which is all about building this community around yourself. Hustle with heart. So I'll put links to those two things in the show notes. Are there any other ways you want people to find you?

I do a lot of work on LinkedIn if you want to follow me on LinkedIn, but no, that's pretty OK, I will put that in there. Well, thank you very much, Mike, for coming on Unraveling Adoption and sharing your story and your vision. I am Thank you very much. I appreciate having me on here and all the great work you're doing with your son. Oh, thank you so much. And while you're on the Internet looking up Mike's stuff, go

ahead and find Unraveling Adoption at unravelingadoption.com. And if any of you are seeking a little bit extra support or guidance, especially if you're an adoptive parent, I want to just make myself available to you as a coach. I do individual coaching and also I have two group coaching opportunities coming up this week if you're listening to this episode when it first comes out. One for adoptive parents with little kids and one for adoptive parents with self-destructive kids, kids who are on

the struggle bus. So if that describes your family and you would like some extra support, please find me and we can talk about ways that we can work together as a coach and coachee. Information is at unravelingadoption.com slash coaching or unravelingadoption.com slash events for our upcoming events, especially if you're listening to this episode Thank you

everybody for listening. Make sure and share this episode with anyone you know who might want to have a broader vision of what we can do as the adoption community or people who want some more tools for how to build their own personal trust communities. So great to have you all listening. Thank you so much. Mike