Connecting with Ancestors for Healing with Helena Soholm, PhD - Ep 140

Welcome to this episode of Unraveling Adoption, an intentional space to delve into adoption's complexities together. I'm Beth Syverson. I'm an adoptive mom of an open-minded and empathetic 20-year-old son, Joe, who is launching as an adult. I'm walking beside him while working on my own personal growth and healing. I'm also a certified coach helping primarily

adoptive parents. Joe and I are committed to helping anyone impacted by adoption, and we want to help the general public understand adoption's complexities better too. So listeners, are you in touch with your ancestors? Do you ever seek or receive messages from your lineage, whether or not you know who they were in real life? Today's guest is Dr. Helena Soholm, and she might help us open up our minds about the power of

the ancestors' voice in our life. Typically, our guests at Unraveling Adoption are adoptees, and occasionally we bring in birth parents or adoptive parents. Helena is none of these, but she has helped dozens of adoptees as a Korean mudang or shaman. She immigrated to the U.S. from South Korea at age nine and spent her young adulthood studying psychology

and theology. She received a master's in theological studies from Harvard Divinity School, then pursued another master's in existential phenomenological psychology at Seattle University. I don't even have any idea what that's about, but that sounds amazing and interesting. Today, she combines her passion for contemporary forms of shamanism and

psychology, integrating them in a unique way. In 2018, she became both a doctor of psychology and a mudang, Korean shaman, I've never met someone quite like Helena, and I'm excited for you to meet her too. She will share about her awakening to the ancestors and how she helps adoptees move along their own path through communicating with their ancestors. So welcome to Unraveling Adoption, Helena. I'm so glad you're here. Thank you, Beth. Thank

you for having me. Yeah. Does anyone else have anything similar to your credentials? It's so unusual, Pat. I suppose I think it's good to think that there are others like you doing the kinds of work that you are doing. And I know of other Korean American shamans now coming up in the world. And of course, there are many, many healers of all forms doing wonderful healing work.

I just have followed the path that I have and here's where It's fascinating because you have both Western and Eastern, you know, the science-based and the deeply spiritual and you've combined it in such a unique way. I love it. Okay, when you were growing up, did you dream of becoming a shaman? Did you want to be a psychiatrist or go into psychology or what So I was a very odd child. Now I understand why I had the childhood and the family system

that I grew up in. But as a child, you don't understand these things. I do have, let's say, spiritual gifts in my genetic line. So my mother was a single parent. And even while we were in Korea, I was surrounded by women who were intuitives. My mother had very powerful spiritual gifts that she never quite utilized in a professional way or even I guess expressed in her personal life. But she and I often talked about spirits and I have a lot of aunties and

they all talked about their dreams. Like when we spend time together, we would wake up in the morning and the first things that we're talking about are dreams and who we saw in our dreams. And that would be very meaningful. So that's part of the Korean culture. It's a very shamanistic culture, but it was also unique to our family. So the women in our family are intuitive. And then by later walking the path of a mudang, a shaman, I understood what

Okay. So you have other mudangs in your line or just There may be mudang. I'm not sure about that, but there was a deep devotion to the indigenous spirituality in my mother's side of the family. And my great grandmother, that side of the family is from North Korea in Pyongyang. And I hear they were an aristocratic family. And my great-grandmother apparently kept a very large shrine to the indigenous spirits.

And she prayed to the seven stars, the Big Dipper deity, which is a big deity in the Korean cosmology, to conceive my grandfather, who is the only son. So I know that they worship these nature spirits and Now, I know, at least here, many, many Korean Americans are Christian. There's a lot of Korean churches here. Was your family Christian, Yes. So here's the story that gets very interesting. So I'm born with these kind of natural spiritual gifts. I

was always intuitive. I've had premonition dreams ever since I was a very young child. And as I developed these skills, I would have dreams where I would understand the nature of a situation or a person before I could know it in my human way. So these things guided me throughout life to not fall prey to dangerous situations or people. So these guidances have always been present. So my grandfather on my maternal side, like I mentioned, he's from North Korea. During the Korean War, he had

a family already, existing family in Pyongyang. And of course, the communists were going after the upper classes. So they were in danger. So my grandfather and the oldest son, my uncle, decided to run away for a few days to And he left his first wife and other children there and then came down to a different area to the south. OK. Well, they thought they were going to go back in a very short period of time. However, the way that the war turned out, they drew the lines and they couldn't go

back. So my grandfather came to south with his first born son, and they were never to be united again with the North Korean family. And then he eventually met my grandmother, who also lost her husband in the war. And she had prior children from the prior marriage. And then they got together and they had the rest of the family, including my mother. OK, so my grandmother was the Christian person

and she converted my grandfather to Christianity. And that side of the family, I believe, were like fourth generation Christians. So deep Christianity running through that family. And my entire life has been infused by Christianity. When I was in Korea, I went to church often, multiple times a week. And then throughout my time growing up in America, we also were part of a church community. And like you mentioned, a lot of Korean American immigrants are Christian, because

it's also a support network for them. So you leave your families, you come here, you know, and you don't have family here. And for my mother, she was a single parent. So the church community was really our extended family, and I spent most of my childhood in church camps, going to church, church events, youth, Sunday school, and there was a time in my life when I was considering becoming an Okay, okay. Now the Korean Christian churches, do they have No, there's no room, but the churches are very

shamanistic in the way that they worship. So if you know of the Pentecostal and Evangelical churches in America, they work with spirit energy and they speak in tongues. But in Korean churches, even if you are part of a more conservative church, they may still Yes, it's shamanistic in its flavor because it's syncretism. These religions coming together and expressing itself differently than Interesting. Fascinating. Now, how did your family like it when you decided

So my mother had these gifts that never got realized. She knew me. My mother knew who I was and what I had. So it's been one of her biggest fears that I would become a mudam. This is a fear she held in her heart deeply throughout my life. And Reminds me of Elsa in Frozen. Is that how you felt? Oh, yes, yes. Like you needed to wear the gloves. Like I have so much power inside of me and you had to kind of hold it in.

Hold it in. I didn't do very well. I also have a very independent minded personality and it caused a lot of friction, not just in my family system, but throughout my life. I've always been an independent thinker. The initiation took place in 2018. All the way through my late 20s and into my 30s, my shamanic, what we call shamanic illness. Sometimes it can be expressed into a very severe illness psychologically or physically. When people are going through this experience, I

started feeling different energies. Let's just call it, Okay, so shamanic illness, is this when you're not expressing your gifts or is it some sort of curse? I'm It's not a curse. It's like spirits become very interested in you because you have your own spirits but also other types Oh, so the other spirits were glomming on to you and then making It could be. It could be the case that shamans experience that. In my case, I was suffering from a lot of nightmares where

I saw spirits coming towards me. But also when I would sit and meditate, I can feel my helping spirits Yes, because they're the ones who are going to protect you and help you do the But you believe there are also negative spirits. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So your helper spirits were trying to protect you, but Yeah. So it can express itself into confusion, sometimes psychotic events, you know, for me, what helped me was that I already knew a lot of theory about mental health. I

was already a practicing psychotherapist by then. Yeah. But I was in the midst of writing my dissertation, which was already late. I was procrastinating on that, so madly stressed about that and then working full time as a psychotherapist. At the time, I was working at an art college doing counseling with the students there. And in addition, I also had a private practice. So I was stressed to the max and the energies kept building and

building. But this is the ancestral piece. Throughout this period, my grandmother, who passed away long before, started showing up in my dreams. I believe this was an ancestor who's further back than my grandmother. Okay. But I think she took on the face of my grandmother. So you would recognize... Because that's the grand... Yes. Okay. Yes, that's the grandmother I know. So she's like a compilation of the different ancestors. Okay. And she started showing up. And in one dream, I

was in Korea. And I was shopping with my family for a white hanbok. Hanbok is the traditional costume of The beautiful dress that women wear? Yes. Okay. Yes. I know what Yes. And hanbok is the general term for the men's and women's wear. And I thought, what a strange dream because the only understanding of white hanbok that I had at the time was that you wear it during funerals. That was the traditional color that you would wear at funerals. So

I thought it's someone passing away. But later I understood because the mudang, the shamans, wear white Okay, okay. So they were saying, knock knock, we want you to be a shaman. Yes. And did you say okay? Yes, it was hard. But it's kind of like, if I don't take that step, I would never Yeah. I knew this was my calling. It's like becoming your authentic self. Yes. Wow. Wow. Wow. Okay. So you eventually finished your dissertation because I read that you got a doctorate of psychology. Yes.

In the middle of all this. Wow. And it seems like it all happened It did. So I went to Korea alone. My husband was supportive of me going even though he didn't understand. He's Danish American. He came to America when he was 17, 18. from Denmark and grew up in a very secular society. Danes are very secular people. So he didn't understand, but he knew that this is something I had to do. So I went to Korea alone. I

didn't tell any of my family there. And I didn't tell my mother who was alive back then that I was going because I didn't want any disturbances energetically. And my grandmother was in my dreams. She showed me And this is the most beautiful thing. She actually pointed it out to me, the exact person that I need to work with as a teacher. Wow. So the spirits are very concrete that way. They're not just like general. They can be very detailed

about what they want from you. And I followed. I went to Korea, had the initiation, which took all day. And I stayed with my teacher and other shamans for the whole week. And then I returned. That was summer. I came back and I finished up my dissertation and really started my new life. with Wow. Fascinating. We're going to get to the adoptee part in just a moment. Yes. What do you say to people that say it's a bunch of hooey that you can talk to ancestors like this is not real. There's I'm sure

a lot of atheists or agnostics or humanists. They're like, you need to live in reality. What are you doing? What do you say to people like Yes, I suppose. I mean, everyone has a right to their opinion. But it's really the direct experience that I want people to trust. So I have no interest in trying to convince anybody of a way of thinking that they can't understand. But I know that if they have

an experience, then they can understand. And I teach methods of decolonizing our minds to gain our indigenous way of thinking again. So it is science. And by the way, there are reputable scientists, Western scientists who have studied paranormal or energetic spiritual phenomenon using Western scientific methods. So there's a body of research that you can tap into and learn about. However, my way of teaching spirituality is every one of us has ancestry going back to people who

lived with earth-based practices. Sure, okay. If you go back far enough? Yes. Everyone lived in connection to the earth and the cycles and rituals and it's a different way of existing in the world where it's not one or the other. But if you open up to that world and I will give examples from my own life of the shocking things that have happened to me that

Well, okay, we now go into the adoption and the adoptees. So I have no personal connection to adoption. I'm not an adoptee. And actually, I've really not thought about adoption much or adoptees, other than the average person who might have known people who are adopted, but I did start my journey as an immigrant with Korean adoptees. On the flight from South Korea to the Seattle area, we came along with a group of Korean babies who

were finding their new homes in America. And I remember my mother, actually, because she loved babies, and she was playing with the babies on the plane. and actually held some of them. So my first images of coming to America was Wow. That's really interesting that you remember that and that forms such a strong memory. I can imagine a Wow. Okay. Yes. And I didn't have an understanding other than, oh, wow. You know, I was a child. I was nine years old. And then I have two friends I remember from

childhood in America who were Korean adoptees. They both had mothers who were Korean and fathers who were Caucasian and served in the military. So that's how the parents met in Korea. And again, I didn't have any kind of awareness other than that. No, it must be at least nice to have a mother who can give them that culture. So I shared this culture with them. And I remember both of them were able to speak Korean and,

you know, they had the cultural peace. But then later I started meeting Korean adoptees who were not connected at all and started learning about the painful childhoods Yeah, that's more often the case, no? Is that what you've experienced with Koreans? Yes. Yeah. They're more often separated from the language and Yeah. Yes. So in 2018, when I returned from my initiation, one of the most powerful visions I experienced was of seeing all the Korean ancestors of

the adoptees. They showed up in a large group, thousands of How did you know they were the adoptees' ancestors? They just told you? Yes. It's more like just a deep knowing. Just a knowing who Yes. And they wanted to connect. They wanted to connect to all their children, grandchildren. I woke up from the state and I thought, wow, I didn't think that I could do this alone. Of course. I mean, I alone cannot help everybody. But I thought, wow, what a

What a powerful vision. Then when I opened my shamanic practice, many, many Korean adoptees started showing You didn't advertise for it or write an article or anything. They just And it makes sense at the basic level. If you are an adoptee trying to connect to your culture, this is a reasonable way that you would want to connect to the spirituality, right? Because many people are also trying to heal themselves and they want to find ways of

healing themselves through their indigenous spirituality. And I thought, wow, this is almost overwhelming. So many stories, not just from original loss, but so much abuse that took place after from either growing up in an abusive adoptive home, to the cultural abuses from racism, of being different. And it was overwhelming. And I started doing ceremonies with them. And something interesting happening there was that when I tapped into the ancestral energy, I had a lot of

anger show up. Anger from the very, very old ancestors who were very disappointed with the way that Korea behaved as a country in sending away their children. And if you know any of the individual stories involved in that, there's some very not so nice behavior. I'll just say it nicely

like that. But very abusive behavior, very shameful behavior, and the ancestors were very angry And it took me by surprise and it took some of the adoptees by surprise because they were there to connect and if that more grief or sadness would show up, but I'd just be flowing over with anger, connecting to Did the adoptees think they were angry at them? Or was it clear they were Yes. I explained where the anger was coming from and that the ancestors, deities or the spirits were very angry at

the way our collective ancestors behaved. So that started happening. Then last year, I felt the first call to take a group of Korean diaspora back to Korea for a pilgrimage. A lot of the adoptees told me that when they engaged and connected with the culture again, a lot of the institutions would have these kind of touristy cultural tours. Yeah, go to your homeland and yeah. Yes, motherland trips and They would get on a bus and just show them the sights just like they were tourists but they

never received anything spiritual. This is also because it's a taboo topic in Korea. There's a huge stigma against shamans in Korea. Most of the shamans are women and there are thousands of them and they're often hated because of their manipulative economic practices. Many of the shamans are quite corrupt and capitalistic. Really? And they will charge anywhere from $10,000 to $40,000 for a ceremony. Oh my gosh. Wow. So there's a lot of healing that needs to take place at that level as

So the Koreans don't trust the shamans. And then you're coming in as a Korean American into Korea. How do they Well, I introduced myself as a psychotherapist, not psychologist.

rather than leading with mudang because they would not take me seriously so they don't need to know that part so i thought okay the ancestors want connection let's do it right and this took years so beth when i talk about my childhood and the weird experiences i had i would have these kind of a deeper knowing i was a child i was mature because i was also the first born in a single parent

Yes, I did everything, you know. So there was a certain level of maturity, but also I used to get these kind of deeper knowings. And one of them was that I would keep my language. So I made an effort. I was nine, which was helpful. I went to school in Korea, but you can still lose the language if you don't utilize it. Yeah, use it or lose it. Yes. So I remember making an effort. And

as soon as I received opportunities to go back to Korea, I would go. And I even lived there during my 20s for a year teaching English and really reconnected. And then during my late 30s and then into my early 40s, started going regularly to make connections and build a network. And it was helpful to have that language, but there was a very distinct voice when I was young telling me, keep your language because you need it.

And so now you're able to take these Korean adoptees who have completely lost their language and you're able to be like a docent, a guide and spiritual guide, all of it. Yes. Wow. That's kind of a unique set of tools Well, you've got to learn how to listen and then This is a technique I like to teach people that I believe everybody has a purpose. And just by simply learning to have a listening practice, you can listen for what is needed from you. Okay. And you can

Okay. And when you have had these ceremonies with adoptees, what have been the outcomes? What Well, just at the basic psychological level, you feel nurtured. So I've made an effort to meet and create a community back in Korea made up of very loving, nurturing people because sometimes, not just the top Ds, but the Korean American Ds, like myself, also experience alienation because they don't speak the language well enough. And old school Korea

was brusque, if I had to describe the personality. It's a trauma response. There's a lot of cultural trauma from the war, colonization, and people were a bit rough. But that's not, of course, innately Korean. It's a result of all the traumas that happened to the culture. But just last trip with the pilgrimage, you notice how much softer people have become. And there are beautiful people out there who are also wanting to do

this work with me. As an example, in order to do my ceremony, I need musicians to help me get into an altered state of consciousness. And I do that through music and dance and jumping up and down. So when I was looking for people to help me, I don't have a network in Korea. You know, I don't know people there. And I had somebody on my social media that I knew about, but we had never talked to each other before. And his name is

Professor Dongwon Kim. And he's a traditional Korean musician, percussionist, He also played with Yo-Yo Ma's Silk Road Ensemble for many years. And he was on my Facebook friends list. And I thought, oh, he would surely know some people. So I reached out to him last year and asked, would you lend me two of your students, because I had a very small budget, who can assess me in a ceremony? And he kept probing and asking further questions. And finally, he just said, I would like to help. And

I was like, I can't afford to pay you. But he did it anyway. because he wanted to and so he and his former student came to the ceremony to assist and we had a beautiful ceremony. So at the basic level, they're nurtured, welcomed by people in Korea psychologically. That's huge. Very, very huge. But sometimes the ceremony is just a trigger in a way that I can't know. My job is to just provide the space and people's lives, how they change after that is out of my hands. And they take on

a form of their own, their energies. And I love seeing how it unfolds in people's lives, whether it's healing or further connection, or now they feel more comfortable going back to Korea. That's one of my main purposes is to help them feel at ease in Korea so they can go back and

I know a lot of Korean adoptees are unable to find their birth families in real life. It's just really, really hard. But does this provide them some sort of connection that they might be seeking? Do they crave that connection with their lineage? And does that kind of fill that I think so. Even for ordinary people who were raised in their biological families, I don't know anyone beyond my grandparents' generation. I suppose. It's

rare that you would know the ancestors back. For adoptees, I help them do the connection to the ancestors by ritual, even if they have no idea of who that is. And I believe that's psychologically helpful. Ritual is for the spiritual, energetical, but also for the person engaged in the ritual, a two-way relationship between yourself and the universe. So I developed a very simplified version of the Korean ancestral rites, which are elaborate, to help people engage in

these practices. And I teach these skills to adoptees, but Wow. It sounds amazing. And do you only talk to Korean ancestors, or are ancestors the Ancestors are same everywhere. Sometimes when you come from a culture, even if you're an adoptee from a culture that had a tradition of ancestral worship, So my German ancestors are probably locked away somewhere deep Well, but we can find them. And the more that you do work towards it, you can be

in relationship to them. And certainly everybody's ancestors are right there present, whether we know Yeah. And other countries, like my son's Japanese, that's a They have the shines and the... Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Very good. It's also beautiful, the Mexican tradition of Día de los Muertos. Is that all the same? It's the same thing, Well, I don't want to say the same thing, not knowing what are the specific traditions, but I think it's the same idea across the globe,

Crossing the veil. Right. Okay. Yeah. Very good. Beautiful. Well, if somebody can't go to Korea with you, what can adoptees especially do to have a deeper connection with their ancestry? Is there anything we can do as laypeople or No. Well, I mean, I know that a lot of people have fears about engaging in spiritual practices, but I really want to emphasize an important point that there's nothing to fear. I want to normalize the practice of spirituality and ancestral rituals. They're

a normal part of our lives. And in Korea, even if somebody is not necessarily spiritual, if they grew up in a family where they did ancestral rites regularly, it's just part of their daily living. And I think it's good practice. Maybe you're not going on the pilgrimage with me, but I'm creating multiple opportunities where people can engage this way. I just want to spend a little time on the ceremony I did in Denmark. Something remarkable happened around that. I

suppose it took my whole adult life for that to come to fruition. So one day and two months ago, I offered my first shamanic ceremony in Denmark. Denmark is the country of my husband. the motherland of my husband, and we go back frequently every year. And I've been going back since we were married in 2006, but have never offered the ceremony until just recently. And as I started planning for it, I just knew time was now. And then very interesting set of things happened that I'm still thinking

about it. I'm so in awe of spirits and what's unfolded. So when I put the ceremony together, I had no idea that Denmark took in so many Korean adoptees. So Korea adopted out close to 200,000 children since the 50s. Most of them were adopted in the 70s and 80s all throughout the Western world. Apparently, Denmark has one of the highest transnational adoption rates in the world. And they have one of the highest number of Korean

And I didn't know either, Beth. And in the fall of 23, just last fall, in September, the New York Times and The Guardian both posted a huge article about the very abusive ways that children were sent out of the country. The leaders leading that cause and going back to Korea to get answers about their adoption histories was led by Danes. Oh, interesting. OK. So it was all Denmark. And here's this little tiny country. I didn't know much about it when I met my husband. And then I was married for

many years to him. And then now I was offering an ancestral ceremony there. And all of this was happening as I was planning the ceremony. It's all brewing. OK. Wow. Wow. And then the week of the ceremony, January 20th, both Norway and Denmark stopped all international adoptions. Wow. So I was a piece of something larger that I had no idea Interesting, fascinating. And the adoptees that were participating probably Absolutely. And so in the room were, of course, white

Danes who were interested in connecting. I work with anybody and everybody who wants to make a connection. And then, of course, the Korean adoptees were there. And then I have some indigenous friends from Greenland, Denmark, brutally colonized Greenland. And they have, of course, adoptees from Greenland. But these are coerced adoptions, not very ethically done. Yeah. Practically stolen. And I have one friend who was an adoptee who just wrote a book about

her experiences. Her name is Kalangua. And she made these earrings for me. So I'm wearing them today. Yeah. Thank you. And she wrote a book called Little about her early adoption experiences. And so all these energies were there. And I had no idea. I didn't know who was going to come to the ceremony. I don't have a network in Denmark. I'm just a Korean-American woman who would come. But they came and my friend came all

the way from South Korea to assist with the music. And another musician who was trained by him also flew in from Switzerland and supported the ceremony. So all this came together in a way that Wow. Yeah, you couldn't have scripted that like that. I mean, it's like the stars all aligned right there for you. I bet that was a powerful ceremony. And you're doing another one in October Yes. So several events are already in the works. In October, I will be taking another group to Korea

for a pilgrimage. And we do a ceremony when we go. and we do a temple stay at a buddhist temple with there are hundreds of them in korea and of course some fun activities as well but it's really for personal and ancestral healing and then next year i'm going back to denmark in 2025 during summer solstice 21st and 22nd i'll be doing a two-day shamanic event if people are traveling or from europe they can also come to Nice. And they're all open to adoptees and non-adoptees.

Yes, anyone. Anybody who wants to connect with their ancestors. All right. So I'm just thinking that this is going to be so helpful to people that have tried everything They've tried all the things, all the Western modalities, all the things and maybe this might open up just different way of healing for people, a deeper healing perhaps. So I hope people would look into it, think about it, look into your work or

Well, there are many people doing the work now and I think a simple Google search We'll get you providers and start with whatever is in front of you and available. There's no perfect way to do it. It's just a trusting process of Sure, psychic mediums sometimes profess to have abilities to see beyond what we experience. I think we have to be careful that you have to follow your intuition. I know that there are talented psychics and mediums out in the world, it's

just that there are very few of them. who are authentic and Yeah, so being very careful. And you just trust your I suppose. And I think referrals are good, you know, if you have friends. But here's my really important teaching about spirituality. My goal when I work with individuals is to help them develop their own skills that they can trust themselves. So I encourage people even in the ceremony space to not look to me only. I'm a person who can trigger your own

That's what I believe. So there's nothing necessarily magic about you. You're just a conduit, a helper to get them Yes. So my goal is to boost your healing system so that you can trust yourself to heal yourself. And this way we don't get into power issues where you're going to just be reliant on the person external to you for answers because it's a never-ending process to always rely on somebody else for authority. But I'm trying to help you build your own spiritual authority. So I like

teaching the techniques, teaching the rituals. I will provide the settings in which the healing can

You're working yourself out of a job, I see. Well, this is fascinating. I hope someday my son and I can work on this with you. This sounds amazing. And I just wish you all the best with all of your work with adoptees and other people too. And I'm really glad I know you. How can people get a hold of you or Well, you can look at my website, helenasohom.com. I have all my events listed there. I'm active on all the social media, Facebook, Instagram. I post all

Okay. And I'll include all those links in the show notes. Is Well, thank you for including me in your podcast because I am not an adoptee. I don't have a specialty working with them and I know very little. about the adoption community, but I humbly do my work to support whoever needs supporting from me. And if I can help adoptees, specifically people in my own culture, because I'm a part of that karma that happened in our country, I'm happy to support anybody who needs

help in this area. But it's really about finding ourselves, who are we, identity, and how can we exist in the world peacefully? and there are so many ways to do that. So trust yourself and That's beautiful. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for being here and helping us all understand this a little bit better. And I hope that you will continue learning more about the adoption community. It's rich and beautiful and full of pain and growth. We're all, adoptive parents like me included, trying to

do better and trying to learn and become more authentic. So thank you for being a piece of this. Appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. And everyone, please share this episode with anyone you think who might be interested in Helena's work or just kind of opening their minds to what else is out there that can help us spiritually. And thank you all for listening. And