Welcome to this episode of Unraveling Adoption, an intentional space to delve into adoption's complexities together. I'm Beth Syverson. I'm an adoptive mom of a wise and hardworking 20-year-old son, Joey, who is trying hard to launch into adulthood. I'm walking beside him while working on my own personal growth and healing. I'm also a certified coach.
I'm helping primarily adoptive parents. Joey and I are committed to helping anyone impacted by adoption, and we want to help the general public understand adoption's complexities better too. Well, in our podcast, you've heard us talk about addiction many times. Many of you know that my son Joey has struggled with addiction for at least six years, and we've talked to many other adoptees and birth parents who've struggled with
addiction on the show. But did you know you could be addicted to people? And that it's pretty common for adoptees to have codependent behavior because adoption trauma, you know? So today's guest is Jonathan Newbern. He's a same-race domestic adoptee who has been deeply involved with Codependents Anonymous, or CODA, since 2018. He had a pretty rough childhood, which he'll tell us about, and he will explain the connection between his relinquishment trauma, adoption trauma, reunion
trauma, and his codependency. And he'll give us some practical tools to help those of us who struggle with this issue. So Thank you for having me. Anytime I'm invited in these rooms or meeting places, I come in here with open arms and an open mouth and open ears and open heart to hopefully communicate and get the point across and hopefully give some hope and strength to people and
Thank you so much. That's beautiful. Well, so we've never talked about codependency explicitly, and I'm grateful to have you on because you seem like you've really dug deep into this issue and have some real insight about codependency from the adopted person's point of view. And I struggle with this myself too. So obviously codependency is not only for adoptees. We're not going to be labeling people or blaming anyone, but I
thought it'd be really great for us to dig into this topic. And first, can you just give us the highlights of your adoption Yep. I am a same-race, late-discovery adoptee. My second mom actually put in for adoption when she had a miscarriage. I believe that miscarriage was due to her having a severe drinking problem. To let everybody know, she put in for adoption. My second dad didn't know till foster kids were dropped off his door at Whiteman's Air Force Base in
Missouri. Long story short, they adopted me. And even though my instincts told me these two people who are African-American, just like me, aren't my parents, pretty Later on, my grandfather mentioned... Oh, so you didn't know you were I didn't know I was adopted, but about the age of 12 to 14, I'm sitting on the porch with my grandfather in Tennessee, and he answers the phone and says, I'm Oh, and that's the first time you've heard this word talked about
Yes, this is the first time I've heard it. So, of course, I run back to my second mom. She squashes it. No, no, no. I gave birth to you. She calls him. And the one thing I can say about my grandfather, G.A. Newbern, most honest man out there, known as the cursing deacon, as they called him in church. He was honest. Any time I would ask him, hey, you said something about me being adopted. He wouldn't reply. He would just keep saying, you know, your mom and dad love you. And years later,
it just manifests. I got a voice in the back of my mind. That's my natural instincts. That's usually correct. So at 19, I'm giving my dad the business because here's a little insight. So my mom was a severe alcoholic. I call it she turned into a demon. I tell everybody when she was sober, loved her. One of the reasons I watch professional wrestling today There we are sitting on the couch, drinking soda, watching wrestling. And my dad, retired Air Force, he's
a minister of music. He had an issue with dating multiple women. So my relationship with him was I was very neglected. I call him the cameo dad. If he needed me to unload equipment, load something up, he'll be there. He'll stop in real quick to show me how to change a but not a real relationship like feelings or day-to-day No, there were times we lived in the same house and I didn't physically see him for like two or three days because he was up or gone at
work before I was at school or he was asleep when I went to school. So we had a knock-down, drag-out argument. It really wasn't, it was more me just verbally giving him venom. And he starts crying out and asks God to forgive him. Then he asks me to forgive him. Both of us are over there crying, and I ask him, am I adopted? And he said, yes. The late discovery adoptees are going to understand this phrase. The smoke screen that was put on me is clear, but then all this adoption fog
sets in. So I'm like, yes, the smoke screen's gone. Hey, this fog's a little bit thicker and this fog's wet and Yeah, my second mom comes down and her reaction is more of I'm your mom, I'm your mom. So my story goes like this at 18. Of course, I go to the library, you know, these young folks ain't gonna understand that you have to go to a library and get a book, pull
an article off, you know, like old Commodore and Apple computers. I pull an article about adoption in Missouri, reading a guy's article. I'm like, this is me. I go to find my first parents at 18, they tell me I have to wait till I'm 21, throw a fit. By then at 20, I am married with my daughter. And then at 21, go to search for my biological mom, biological father. And the state of Missouri at that time, 27 years ago, had to close adoption. And it literally made me jump through hoops. Voice
in the back of my mind said, she doesn't want to find you. My parents, now this is key, my second parents told me what they heard from a social worker while she was a young girl. being raped. So 21, can't find her. I get mad after running through all the loops. Try again, three years later, nothing. Try again, 25. By that time, Internet's up. I'm on the Missouri Adoption Registry. Go through life, sort of struggle with that. Have a family, getting some bad relationships. First
marriage ends. Get married right after that. Forgot what the therapist told me. And this is where a lot of codependent issues come in. And then after the second marriage ended and this happened, Also, in 2018, my therapist finally got tired of yelling and trying to twist my arm, and after about seven, eight months, got me a codependence anonymous 12-step group, which she revealed in a lot of therapy with my second wife, with me saying things like, I'm not happy if you're not happy. You're
the emotional compass of me. If I reached out to First Brother a few years later, still didn't know I existed. One great thing I can say is I did something on my bucket list that I want to do at 18, work set it up, and I was actually able to go down to where my First birth mother lived and rang her ring doorbell and thanked her and told her I wasn't mad at her. She was shocked to see me and she just basically told me, I just want you to have a good life. I
said, my life wasn't great, but it's getting better. But I just want you to know I'm not mad at you because I feel as an adoptee reading articles, there's so many first birth children or adoptive children mad at their birth parents. And I can tell adoptees right now, you're going to have to really do some self-evaluation. And that's one of the things in
our CODA 12 step, you do a self-inventory. And there's some things you're going to have to write down that you're going to have to be responsible for and understand that. you made that decision. Granted, you making that decision, you probably didn't have the best information and resources. So that's pretty much my story. And then I met Astrid at Adoption Mosaic event, and she sort of got me enrolled in some meetings and groups. I actually got on a male panel of adoptees in
January of 2024. That's where you saw Yes. And the great thing I can tell everybody who's out there, whether you're a first birth mother, whether you're an adoptive our second parent or adoptee. Adoption organizations are great. They understand you. And people out there who think they're codependent or might be codependent, 12 steps or greater therapies. Great. And codependency, I like to say, is pretty much the best friend cousin
for adoptees. You know, sort of goes hand in hand. Don't see So why do you think that shows up For me, I'm going to say this right now, I am not a doctor. I just have a PhD in life experiences. That's about all I have. But I can tell you for an adoptee standpoint, you have to understand that I didn't realize this actually doing a deep study is we already walk around, I call it like a genetical or an emotional sense of loss. because we're separated from
our first parents or first mother. And the great example I use, and basically what's happened in some of my previous relationships I just figured out being adoptee, is when you're walking around with a sense of loss, or you feel like your first mother or first family don't want you, there's two ways you go about this. Either A, you're going to get really enmeshed and get real clingy because you don't want to lose. Or B, you get this detachment, and as adoptees and groups sometimes
say, I'm going to leave you before you leave me. But most of the time what I see is the clinginess when I talk to people who've been in a relationship with adoptees. And the great example I explain is somebody breaks up with somebody, they're heartbroken. When an adoptee breaks up in a relationship, it is equivalent and probably equal to your favorite family member or favorite pet dying. Yeah, I've had my son. He's told me that to be alone, to break up with someone or to be alone feels
like he's going to die. I mean, he's not even kidding. It's not just like, oh, it feels bad. Like he literally feels Yeah, it does resonate for me, life and death. And what I like to say is having that sense of loss. And the other thing, too, is my generation of adoptees were a little bit different because I'm not saying that this isn't happening now, but for me, birth mom giving birth to me, then being off to a couple other foster families and then getting over to my second parents.
That's five, six months of separation. And we know now due to research that that bonding period, that parents, especially mothers, have with that baby so important that now they're giving parents at least three to four months off so they can Yeah, that shows how important that is. And we're just so happy to take infants away. It boggles my mind. We don't do that with dogs. You know, the baby stays with the dog parent for weeks
Oh, and I'll give you a great example, some things I wrote down. So I'm going to write down from adoptee standpoint. Adoptee wants to protect their second parent, first parent, second family or first family. Our adoptees, these feelings due to not being raised by their first family, second family, our relationship with first or second family. And I'm just going to write down some of the things I've
listed out of the Codependents Anonymous book. And there are a lot of different things from denial patterns to emotional enmeshment, but these are just some example. Minimize, alter, or deny how they truly feel. Mask your pain with anger, humor, isolation, or drugs. Drugs is always a big one. Value others approval of their thinking, feelings, and behavior over their own. Perceive not to see themselves as lovable or worthwhile people.
And we can get in the legal standpoint of that, too, because, you know, first birth mothers and adoptees in some states and in some countries don't have rights, especially in America. You know, everybody's supposed to have rights, but it's real amazing as soon as you're an adoptee or first or birth mother, depending on who sets up everything, you have no rights or what state you're born in. are extremely loyal, remaining
in harmful situations too long. I am not only a member of that club, but I am actually the vice president and I'm the treasurer of that club, too, as well. I want to point that Staying in places too long that are harmful. Got it. Yep. I are afraid to express their beliefs, opinions, and feelings when differ from those of others, especially others who they love, and give up your truth to
gain approval of others to avoid change. Intimacy is frequently difficult for adoptee adults, feelings of rejection, guilt, and shame, and sometimes do not have an identity. How can you be your true, authentic self to somebody you love and be vulnerable if you don't know who you really are? Yeah, literally. The other thing too about not having rights for simple things that other people have rights for is sometimes you feel you're not good
enough. And that translates in a relationship, I can tell you that, especially if you're adoptee and you're in a relationship with somebody who has all their rights and they can just go get their birth certificate and they're close with their family and they have all the plaques and, oh, I come from third generation family of army or I'm a third generation nurse. those things sort of seep in and there's the sense of loss that we sort of walk around with. So those are some great examples
Yeah. I want to just dig in a little bit. This is very helpful and I'm sure that many adoptees that are listening are like, Oh yeah, check, check, check. And parents that are listening are like, yep, I can imagine how that could happen and maybe in their own life too. But I know when people have attachment issues or identity issues, they either go super enmeshed, like cannot live without other people, or super distanced. Is just the enmeshed part the part that codependency is, or
It can be on the other end of the spectrum. You got like a type A codependent who is very mesh, very needy. We call them a sweater because they're just on you all the time. They won't leave. They're itchy. They're making you sweat. And then you got like a type two personality, which is very distant. You want that relationship. And basically, I'd like to look at it as a rescue dog or the rescue dog wants to get close
to you, but it's back away. might get close to you, then all of a sudden it doesn't want to get close to you for a day. And pretty much you're building walls instead of boundaries. Yep, yep, yep. So both of those types of attachment are codependent differently. And Codependent Synonymous manages both types, Yes. And Coda manage both types. Before people start saying, I don't have time, I'm going to throw the BS flag. Because if you go to coda.org, C-O-D-A dot
You can hop online. Most of the Coda meetings are on Zoom and you can attend anyone around the world. I tell people when you're signing up for a 12-step group, it's like you're trying to find your tribe. And there are so many tribes out there. You're like, I don't like how they do this. I like how they do this. Ooh, I like this meeting. And the one thing I can tell anybody out there about being a part of a 12-step group is this. The greatest thing about being about a 12-step group is you will
get time to speak without judgment. They might say, we just read this like an R group. We just read this. We got this many people. We got this much time left. Everybody gets four minutes. You get to speak with no crosstalk, no feedback, no interruptions, no nothing. And literally, I want everybody to think about when's the last time you ever shared your feelings or thoughts for four to five minutes, and you can do it with no feedback or
no crosstalk. It really does something to you because you're like, Yeah, just that alone, not to mention all the things that you learn and read and learn together, but just the fact that somebody will listen to you without telling you what to do or giving you advice. I think that's so valuable. I love that part about 12-step programs in general. That's really great. And what was the straw that broke a camel's back? I know your therapist told you to go to COTA, but can
you give us an idea? Okay, I'll go because What was So first relationship I want to tell everybody. I recently connected the dots with my relationships because I was lied to by my second mom. I always gravitate towards women who lie and they're never who they say they are. First wife is actually from another country. She said she was a year older than me, and I call her the alcohol drunk version of my mom. Come to find out, she's actually three to four years older than me. She has
anger issues. I will say this as a male, I am a victim of domestic violence where I did have to call the police on her. and get out of that relationship with two wonderful, beautiful children, then meet the second wife. My therapist at the time was like, hey, take time off. I didn't. Got in a relationship four or five months later, thought she was the one. She had three girls. Luckily, we didn't have kids together. She had three girls. Her middle special needs
child loved me. I still love her kids to the day, but that's the one that we're connected with. And literally, we started going to therapy at my church with my pastor, who, you know, he has that saying, happy wife, happy life, which is a codependent statement. So then we start seeing a professional therapist, and she couldn't manipulate her. I'll tell everybody, see a female therapist,
females are smarter than men, than females. And this is scientifically, scientifically and psychologically proven. When a female pushes aside her emotions, she is twice as illogical as a man. No kidding. She couldn't pull the wool over her eyes. And I kept making codependent statements like, you know, you're my emotional compass. You're happy. I'm happy. And then she did some fraudulent things that later on got me sued for half a million dollars. And my therapist was like, you know what
I want you to do when you're out? I had shoulder surgery, too. She was like, I want you to read this book. She's like, I've been trying to get you to go to this 12 step group. Read this book, Codependence for Dummies. And my therapist would say, if you ever want to talk about adoption, I know a therapist you can talk to. And I was like, no, we're really focused on this because this relationship's ending. And she said, the first thing I want you to do is go to boundaries, read boundaries. I
was like, okay. I read boundaries and I was like, wow, I have no boundaries with this person. And the great thing about boundaries, I can tell people, is you can adjust them per person and you can change them at any given time. So you can have different boundaries for your mom and you have different boundaries for your dad. Then I started going to CODA 12-step. And this is where that year I started meeting with other adoptees at little luncheons. I wasn't meeting with Adoption Mosaic,
but I was meeting with people who were part of Adoption Mosaic. And I'm a pretty open, honest person. I'm sitting down with six people telling my story, really weird African-American man or black man talking about feelings Then I go to the 12-step CODA group and I'm like, how am I going to sit down here and talk about my feelings and what's going on and read these books? And I'm like, you know what? I
did this with some adoptees I didn't know. Start going to the meetings and literally as I go to the meetings and get therapy, the soon to be second ex-wife didn't like it because she couldn't manipulate me. And I was like, I'm on to something here. And I stuck to my guns and my boundaries of us trying to fix the relationship, understood that it takes two people to rebuild a relationship. Me and my dad showed that when we rebuild our relationship at 19. CODA
saved me from a lot of bad relationships. I got myself in some bad relationships, too, even being in Coda. But that's the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm in Coda and I'm barely speaking at my first month. And now I'm co-hosting meetings and talking about codependency on a podcast, letting Wow. It's really great to bring this stuff to light. And I admire
you greatly for doing that. And I don't know if anyone notices, I bring on a man or non-binary person every other episode because there's so many women in this space, like so many women in the adoption space. And I purposely want to hear from men. So I'm grateful that you are willing to share your story. It's a painful story. A lot
of heaviness there. And I think you're just stating your story is helpful to people and then also giving them these great tools like CODA and these books and adoption mosaics. So I think it's great. Is there anything that you would like to say Yeah, I do. As far as recovery tools, Ask for help. Do some research. Figure out what your stress buster is. A lot of people, and I tell people, right, left, cognitive motion is always the best. Whether it's walking, gardening, doing something, sitting
down, playing video games, ain't the answer. Other things you can say to yourself is, today I'm willing. I matter. You can slow down. Take care of yourself. Take time. Go get a massage. Go soak in a bubble bath. Just go out and sit under the hammock and read a book, or better yet, just go outside and relax. And then I got five questions I asked myself before I agreed to do something. Do I have enough money or funds to do this task? Do I have enough energy to
do this? Can I do this and expect nothing in return? Can I mentally handle this? And do I have time to do it? Those are the five questions. Wow. As far as my outro, I'm going to say this in our adoption constellation. That's what we call it. We are very uncanny. Uncanny means beyond the ordinary or normal, extraordinary and even difficult to explain. Opposite of uncanny is normal. And I feel as adoptees, we are uncanny. To my
fellow adoptees, your feelings and emotions are valid. We are uncanny and unique. In the spiritual realm, we have twice as many ancestors and spiritual guides as anybody else, from our adoptive parents and our first birth parents. And we have twice more. than normal children brought into this world. We are everywhere on this planet. I feel that we get double the curse and double the blessing.
I feel, as a whole, we are stronger than normal and average people walking around with what we have to deal with and what we have to endure. By the way, we are not second-class people or second-class citizens. Sometimes we don't have rights in states, but that doesn't mean we're second-class people. And as adoptees, we should not look at ourselves as second-class people or second-rate humans, no matter who holds us down or who tells us
these bad things or bad words. We are uncanny, and a lot of people can't explain or understand uncanny people or things. Please open your eyes, ears, hearts, and minds to my first and birth parents. You're my hero. You have a lot of courage and strength, and you sometimes don't even know it. And you've been shamed, guilted, pushed aside, emotionally beat up, and manipulated. But you are a hero. Heroes do things very few people can do and have the courage to do it and go above
and beyond. And you first and birth parents, do not be afraid of our adoption constellation. I and other people love you. We will open you with open arms. Please open your ears, your eyes, your hearts and your minds. And of course, to my adoptive second parents, who did not have, or might not have had, the resources to raise us adoptees. I know it was hard. And you tried your best with what you had. I know it was never easy and it is never easy raising a child that is not your
own. I have done that in my life. But it adds another layer to raise a child that is not yours. That's an adoptee child. Thank you for your efforts. And please open your ears, your eyes, your hearts and your minds. We have room in our adoption constellation for you. And I would like to thank the Adoption Mosaic. I'd like to thank the staff there. They are constantly trying to do work just like you, Beth, of
pulling everybody in the adoption constellation together. I feel like religion and some parts of society, whether it's for religious gains or business gains, try to keep us apart. Because once a group of people come together, and voice and have power and have resources and money, then politicians have to listen. And I just feel like they want to keep us separated.
And I say that because I would love to see one day where we can talk about anything in the adoption constellation on either side of the state or fence you're on I love that. That's kind of where I'm at, too. I really feel like we're stronger together, if we can listen to each other, understand each other better, and not just assume we're all enemies, that would be a great start. That's a great start. Thank you so much, Jonathan. That was a beautiful essay that you read, and
it hits so many really important points. I thought that was really beautiful. I really appreciate your being willing to come on here and for all the work you're doing with Adoption Mosaic and Encoda. I am on Team Jonathan. Whatever I can do to help, just Well, thank you, and I would like to thank the people once again at Adoption Mosaic, yourself, Beth. I'd like to thank your son. Your
son doesn't understand. He's a lot stronger than he thinks he is. And of course, a senseless plug for the Colorado Tuesday night CODA meeting that meets at 7 p.m. Mountain Time. Remember, C-O-D-A dot O-R-G. You're not alone. You are valuable. You are worth it. So Nice. I love that. I love that. If people wanted to get a hold of They can get a hold of me on Facebook, spelled J-O-N, and my last name is spelled N-E-W-B-E-R-N. On
Instagram, you can look me up. It's like the word John and me put together, J-O-N-K-N-E-E, one on Instagram. And then they can also shoot me an email that's spelled J-O-N-K-N-E-E. 51475 at gmail.com. I'm open. If you want to ask more questions about my adoption story, if you want to ask more questions about CODA in the whole, I'm pretty much an open book. They can reach out to me. I'm just willing to help and show people that
there's people out there that care. And if you put in the time and effort on yourself, you can make yourself a better person. Well, you're proof of that for sure. Thank you, Jonathan. That's really, really great. And everyone, make sure and check out Unraveling Adoption at unravelingadoption.com. And I want to make sure you know about an upcoming event that I'm going to be speaking at. It's for Adoption Knowledge Affiliates, a
wonderful nonprofit organization. And I'm going to be presenting a talk called Exploring the Complexities of Motherhood in the Adoption Constellation, just in time for Mother's Day. It'll be Wednesday, May 8th at 7 p.m. The unofficial title of my talk is Happy Effing Mother's Day. So I hope you come. It's free and open to anyone who wants to come and learn more about adoptions complexities. And you can find more about it at unravelingadoption.com slash events.
Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Please share it with someone you know that might be helped. Maybe somebody that you know struggles with codependency. Maybe don't tell them that though. or send it to another adoptive family that you know. And keep spreading the word about our podcast and all of the people that have been guests and they're trying to help the world. So thank you again for listening. Jonathan and I want you all to stay