107: Grant: For the People w/ Kerry Washington

I mean you're suit You're much younger than I am. But there was no show called Romper Room. And the host in the beginning would look into this magical mirror and be like, I see you Tommy and Katie and John and Barbara and Ted, and like, how about in New York when you go into the trinket stores and it's like you can get a little license played or a little pencil with like Katie's always on there. Yeah, and it's always in a variation of spellings. Yeah, I

might get Katie, which is how I spell it. There might be kat why whatever, But you are just straight up fun. No. They would be like, well, get a, William William is garm I'm like, is William gear Well? William is like the English version of Guillermo. So my friends, you know, teachers and um my, my friends I couldn't pronounce Giarmo would call me Willie like Willie was my name in school, like for you wi l e Willie. Oh God, not Willie call you that from now? Please?

I like it. I actually like it. I'm gonna get Willie tatted on me. I don't know if you can tell Willie Willie Willie William that. Um, I have a lot of extra kick and pep in my step today, do you why? Well, because we have the most exciting guest for our listeners today. I mean we're obsessed with her. We're obsessed with her and obsessed with us. Yeah, I mean clearly. I mean, and there is no scandal without

this person about this person's performance. Yea. And honestly, she changed my life in like every way, because well, that's just because that's the person she is. I don't think anyone who has been lucky enough to spend time with the one and only Number one of Scandal could say that she hadn't changed their life, because that's just the magnitude of human that she is. Yes, she's fucking hilarious. Ye, that's the other thing, Like, Okay, she's an activist, she's

the best actress ever. She's a director, she's a producer. She's been on Broadway, she's been in movies. She's led the Democratic National Convention. She's ridiculously the accolades and the respect and all of that, but girl is fucking hill. That's one of my favorite things about Carrie is remember laughing with her on set, Like laughing with her was so much fun, so so much fun. And look, I wear my shirt that says Queen, because Carrie is the queen.

She's our queen, and she's our queen of Scandal. And she also was the best number one. Yes, I honestly think this business has ever seen. She's spoiled. Ye spoiled all of other TV shows that I was a regular la on, which was like two others, But she spoiled that for because the amount of you know, class and h just a positiveness and respect that I expected from my number one after Scandal was like anything that I

ever got. Yeah. Yeah, it was like you're no Kerry Washington. No, I mean she was and also how I behaved on set, Like I truly think there was like speeches made. You know, obviously you guys have heard on the podcast that well, we knew that the end was coming our last season,

so there were so many goodbyes. But they kept saying over and over again that everyone who was lucky enough to be on this set could go off into their other sets, of their other jobs, knowing that this type of family feel and behavior was even possible, and that you could strive for that and like exist, you should try to have your cast and crew feel like this.

But my god, this woman, I mean, she didn't. Every time she got nominated for an award, which was all lot, she would gather the entire crew do you remember this shit? Rather gather the entire crew and cast and just like make the most beautiful speech about that. It was about she did at all the time, but how it was everyone like that she was nothing without the rest of us, like the and the crew and the grip. She knew everyone's names, everyone significant others names, who was expecting children,

who was purchasing homes, who needed help? Like it was yeah, and she would also, Katie, do you remember she would when we had background on set. Whenever we had background, she would take a moment, either before we started shooting or after, to say, Hey, I just want to take a minute to say thank you to you guys. Without you, guys, we cannot have you know, made scandal, So thank you background actors, you oh the world. She always did that, and that's the first time I ever saw that on

set on I've never seen that either. Remember the lawn Chair episode with UM. With UM the first one that Courtney b Vance, the background actors have to be screaming horrific racial slurs because it's about us shooting all this and and Carrie is like saying, like, thank you so much for your performance. Like I know this is not easy. I know this is hard. This is taking so much energy and it's hard, ugly things to say. And like

the girl is a leader. I mean, she's not going to run for president, but my good god, if I wish she would. We would be so lucky because it's not only you can't do yeah, And not only do we have Carrie Washington on this episode, we have a plethora of other amazing guest actors. One of my favorites is Matt Lesher, who plays Jimmy Chambers. Of course, George Newberne is in this episode who plays Charlie Freaking Kate Burton d oh Brendan Hines as Gideon Wallace, although in

this episode he Doys did in this episode. Yo Bellamy Young is listed as a guest star in this episode because she's not a regular yet on the show. Bellamy did not become a regular until we got picked up for a second season. And by the way, we're talking today about episode one oh seven called Grant for the People, which aired on May seventeenth and twenty twelve. It was written by Shanda Rhymes, our other queen. There were two queens to make Scandal, Shawn Carry and it was directed

by Roxanne Dawson. But at the time that we shot this episode, we didn't know we were going to get a second No, we had never aired an episode like yeah, we shot it and no one had seen it. So we were still in this like perfect little bubble where we have no clue how the show was going to be received. Listen, what I love about our show and about our cast is not not one year of our seven seasons did I ever or any of us ever feel like, ah cool, I'll see you guys next year.

We were picked up. It was ever after every single season we were like, oh please God, I hope we were fortunate enough to get picked up. We never got cocky about this stuff. Never. We didn't take it for granted, no pun intended grant for the people. The name of this episode grant taken for granted for the people. But yeah, we were always just super humble and just like so great.

That's because shit rolls down hill and carry. Yeah. Never, yes, never took the show, the job, or characters, the writing for granted. Before she comes on, which we're obviously tickled. Tickled, let me just tell you fill in the rest, which is we we said Brendan Hines is on this episode, but this be it because he died. We have Bryan Lesser is Tom Troy Winbush's Morris Elcott, love him so much. Shannon Cochrane is the Attorney General Sawyer. Mark Harrelick is

the Press secretary. Marvin Colgate, You're fired, Marvin. That's my favorite by Aaron. Marvin. Get the fuck out. The synopsis is Olivia and the team rally after Quinn finds Gideon Wallace dying in his apartment. Cyrus turns to Olivia with an anouncement that affects fits his presidency. And that's all we're giving you. It's a very short synopsis. What did

you think of my acting in this episode? Katie? I love your act Katie, Katie, listen, can you look my my first page of notes, says Katie's performance in the scene where she walks in a Gideon and with the team is electric. It's guttural and raw. It's mesmerizing, literally the stuff that. Really, what are you doing to me? Willie? Willie? Oh my god, I love that. I told you. My friends called me Willie like for eighteen years of my life about you were so so good in this episode, Katie,

Like truly, I think so. I think you thrive on. I think I'm the same too. It was such a you had to play all this raw like tragedy like death, and I think you you thrive and you just oh, you were just so real. Love a high steak moment, people, I love a high steak moment. And the shivering you were shivering through your lines. Oh my god. If you guys have not seen this episode, you gotta watch it.

It's not just for finale episode of the first season and Quinn walks in and sees that giddy She's like, oh, great bagel place down thing and like I got your coffee and we fucked last night and like woo whoo. And then it's like oh no, and the coffee falls on the ground, which I remember being on a Friday night and they said, you can only do this once. I had to nail that coffee drop slip out of my hand that spoils everywhere one time. I love it.

And then I see Giddyon just wow, scissors scissors in his neck that Billy Chambers put in there because he was really close. So a couple of things I remember is A that I had to nail that coffee drop once and b I had to reshoot pulling the scissors out of his neck. No, why do you remember? No, we shot the first season and I get a call like months later saying you have to come in, And first of all, I was like, I'm fired always every

time we got that call, I'm fired. After not getting fired, they were like, you have to come back in and shoot reshoot the Billy Chamber death scene, and I was like, are you kidding? That was like the hardest thing I've ever done in my entire life, like pulling the scissors out, screaming, crying, like trying to reach the phone and realizing he's dead because the first angle that they should the way they shot it the first time around, it looked like I

killed him. Oh are you serious? This is my remembering of it. We will be back with more after the break, Okay, guys, without further a duty, Without further a duty, we would like to present We're the stupidest. We would like to present the one, the only, the Queen, the the i'm a, i'm a I'm getting top drawer. She's top drawer, She's tops of everything. She is our friend, she is one of the loves of our lives. She is our colleague. She is well we would just for real go over

a cliff for this person. Yes, and also the biggest goofball just like us. Yes, here she is the one and only. Yeah, hello, you look so beautiful. We're so high. Tried to put on some concealer for you, guys. So I mean, I mean, I prefer the five am, four thirty am Monday morning in makeup trailer of Kerry Washington, that I miss some rings. I do wake up, and

I'm like, those were pretty special insane times. Yeah. I saw on social media you posted about being in hair and makeup with Garma by your side when you guys were doing some press, and it's true. It's just like

you know what I was worried. I was worried that when we didn't have the hair and Makeup trailer, that we wouldn't all still be obsessed with each other and in love with each other, you know, because you have like we could just take for granted our friendships because they were scheduled, but the fact that we're all still so madly in love with each other, it's everything. Yeah.

But we were just saying before you came on that that comes from you, And I mean, look, we're all very special, yes, but you were How did you know how to be a number one like that? Like for real? Would you think it was like you had worked on so many things and had sort of always taken note of how to be a leader or it's just innately

in you. So I'm having a little bit of weird Like I feel it's like a proud mommy because I feel like when I met you, Katie Lows, you were always asking me questions like this, But it wasn't for like a national podcast. It wasn't for like right, it was for the press. Wasn't you ever have people questions not a little bit less like Barbara Walters to it

and more just like I need to know one. Oh yeah, but you're so it's so sweet because it's still the essence of you, Like you have figured out a way to you know, stay, like you are just a naturally curious, yes, very you know, inquisitive, adventurous, ambitious person. So you have it's like, but it's no longer that five am version of like you this, it's like now this very formal presentational version, which I love, Thanks Carrie. I have I think the number one, number one in the whole history

of number ones in the business. And do people know what it means to be a number one on the call sheet? Like do we have to explain that? Let's explain it. So every character is assigned a number on the call sheet based on how important that character is perceived to be on the show, and sometimes relative to the status of the actor playing them. And so if you're number one on the call sheet, you're like the most important character according to the writers. And the producers.

So I learned how to be a number one. I've had incredible number ones I've worked with through the years. Julia Stiles is an amazing number one. Force Whittakers an incredible number one, But hands down, the award for number one number one goes to Jamie Fox. He's a beast he is. He not only like does his homework, is fully prepared, is always happy to be there, really passionate, knows everybody's name, he takes care of the background. He's grateful,

he's humble, he works really hard. He's all of those things. And you know, I worked with him on Ray and then ten years later on Jay Go, and so I got his seed. Like it really is who he is. He's just like Wow, he's a leader. He's a true leader and a generous leader. And he loves his job like he really he loves He gets that we're lucky to do what we do, and he never let a day go by without us all feeling that. And so I think, really, I just spent all those seasons on

Scandal pretending to be Jamie FOXX. Hey, we love it. We were talking earlier carry about how you either before we shot a scene or after you would take a moment to address the background actors and just be like, thank you guys so much for being here. We could not have done this scene without you, guys, just the respect you showed background actors. And for someone who started in background work, I did a ton of background work before.

Oh my god, I didn't know that I was in Green Card, I was in I did background work on student films even yeah, and then a little by Little Butt. But you know, it's rare that the lead actor or even producers or directors, you know, unfortunately, treat background actors with any sort of you know, I mean, you know, the sure like yes, yes, but you are the first,

so important to scenes. Oh my gosh, can you imagine if we didn't have those background actors in the White House, we're just like a bunch of idiots and hallways like yeah, it's like so dumb. It's like you're making s ten yes. And how many times have you watched something where the background totally ruins the scene. I don't believe any of those people are at a party. I don't believe any of those people are, you know, walking like background, looking

at the camera. Background. They're so vital to the very similitar. Yes, and you could tell on our show, you can tell invested in what they're doing today. Just to jog your memory is about episode one oh seven, which is like, who is Quinn Perkins? Quinn pulls the night scissors out of Gideon's throat. Yeah, and I there's the scene where everyone is deciding, yeah, I'll jog your memory. I'll jog your memory. Everyone's like, do we don't they clean it up?

Do we don't? Right? And you're like, we clean it up. But it was the example of an opa. It wasn't so much about character development. Maybe it was for other people, but not for me as much as it was like an ensemble theater piece of like do not drop your line,

especially this is pace. Yes, this is like everyone has got one line, two lines, like, and it was keeping a ball or we got together on the weekend to rehearse yes, yes, yes, about because because it was a play play, we all thought it was a act play. And I remember Betsy Beers being like, you guys, did what our producer bring, Like, yeah, we've never heard of that,

that's bananas, But we just it was a play. It was a one act play, and we were a bunch of theater kids who had been lucky enough to find ourselves on some screens, and so we got up together on our own to rehearse. I think back to that and just think we were so lucky that none of us had done a ton of prime time at work television show to know that we weren't supposed to do that.

We're so lucky what we didn't know because and I think, but before Scandal, the job I'd had before Scandal, it was a movie, but the but right before I just it was a movie, but right before that they start before Scandal. I wanted to ask you that why TV.

I originated a role in David Mammitt's play Race, and to this day, I feel like one of the reasons why God put me in that play was to figure out how to do that mammt thing, like how to affor them, how to say the word has written no matter what, how to get out of the way of the language. Because I felt like I brought so much

of that with me to Scandal. The work ethic that you had on Scandal was to me, and I'm not one, but was like like being an Olympic athlete, which is what you are when you do Broadway, like, yeah, you do a race or you do a scandal, and you're a number one, like you are a machine. You can't get sick, you can't not know your life lines like it's so everyone is. It's like you're yeah, there's Me and Katie were talking about earlier and in other episodes that we've done, how you know we'd see you in

the hair makeup trailer. You'd be on set, but you were always running lines. And Katie brought up you were running lines sometimes for the next scene. Oh yeah, yeah, next. They were like monologues. You'd be like, let's go to the next scene, Let's go to tomorrow's scene. Like it was like you had to do that shit non stop. I know every since Scandal, when somebody come up comes up to me on the set and says like, I'm really sorry, I know it's a lot today, I laughed

like this is nothing. Yeah, oh my gosh. When you got the Scandal script, why television, why this script, why this part? And how did you get it? So everybody knew about this script, Like every black woman in Hollywood between the ages of like nine to ninety nine, everybody wanted it we knew it was like a historic, once in a lifetime kind of opportunity. I heard about it through the grape vine. My manager, who both know Caty, called me and she was like, there's this new Shanda

Rhyme show. It starts a black woman. We feel like you're really right for it. But Shanda, I think Shanda said I was too young because the character was written to be in their forties, which I'm in my forties now, so at the time it was like I might be too young for it. But it felt when I read it, I literally did that thing which sounds so cliche, but I did that thing where I threw it across the room at some point because I was like this, like this was written for me, Like nobody asked to be

playing this role. But and but I also knew that like there were forty other actresses who felt exactly the same and like really amazing actresses who I admire and love, and peers of mind and people I looked up too, and we all just read. We all just you know, read. And at first I met with Shanda actually because I was I had done a bunch of movies and so

my team had negotiated a meeting first. So I went in and I remember getting off the elevator and seeing this huge sign that said Shonda Land and I was like, Oh, I don't know how this is gonna go. Like this seems a lot. Yeah. I was like, I like give up my citizenship and moved to somebody's land. And I was nervous. I was like, gosh, I don't know. I had done a couple arcs on television, but I'd obviously never been in a series. I'd done two other pilots

that I got fired from. Really, yes, but so I met with Shanda for all the actors listening, My god, is that like a hopeful Yeah. The two other pilots I did before Scandal I was fired and both showed why because you were two talents that are too beautiful. No, both shows wet, but they replaced me. You know why, probably because they knew you were a star and you were stealing it from the rest. No, it was a little bit and Gamo, I know will identify with this.

One of them was like they they wanted it to be a more like Girl from the Hood version of the character, and I was like, I just don't see it that way. And they were like, well, then you don't ask me. Yeah exactly. But the other one, I'm not really sure what happened, but yeah, so I so I met with Shawanda. I sat down and I loved her immediately. I just loved her immediately. I was like, oh, she's so lovely, and Betsy was so lovely, and she said to me, you know, if this goes well, this

could be like a seven year commitment. And I was like, yeah, sure, what happened? I just thought that's going to happen. Yeah, this shows barely getting out the air one as a lead, like, let's let's take it one day. Yeah exactly. But I fell in love with her, and then of course I was like, i'll read. I'll read one hundred times if you want me to. And then I did read about a hundred times. My friend Colleen Bassis was my acting coach for the audition. She best. She's still an acting coach,

so people seek her out if you're looking. And so I got to the fine screen tests. I think it was down to me and two other actresses, two or three other actresses, but I remember like the intensity around it because we all knew these opportunities were few and far between and when I got the call that it was mine, I just was I was just being I couldn't. I felt like the luckiest human being on the planet, just so blasted I was, you know, I felt so lucky. You know, when I knew it was gonna be well,

I never knew. I didn't know it was going to be a hit until the middle of second season when we were out in public and all of a sudden, women were throwing themselves at Tony Goldwyn and I was like,

what the fuck is happening. But before that, your dad, Earl said something like I know when I'm making this up in my head, but it was something like I said, say, the Last Dance was going to be the biggest thing ever, and I'm saying it right here, right now, Scandal is going to be huge, almost like Earls got the crystal ball. He knows. And by the way, like, you know, my dad. It's so funny because my dad is such a a dreamer.

He's like he really sees beyond the possibilities of what's real and so like that, you know, he gave me permission to dream big in my life. You know, I always feel like my mother's the one who taught me how to be practical and work ethic, But my dad gave me that ability to be the big dreamer. And he really he saw the potential of this show from the beginning, which I'm so great, but he and he would whenever we would encounter your parents. They were the

biggest fans of the show. They were the biggest I mean, I'll stay right here with you guys. Your dad was like and your mom were like, we love Hook, yes, and give me so much love. And I was like, oh my god. But he was sincere and honest. It wasn't like, you know, like, oh, it's Carrie's parents saying, yeah, we love the show, you were great on it. They were truly like, no, sit down for a second with me, and let's talk about Hook because he's special around. There's

scandal like raincoats. Yes, they they're set jackets. They still wear them. You know. My dad has a bit of an obsession with Scott Foley. I think I told you he's in he's in love. My father's in love. One day we were in the car, my parents were visiting set as always, and um and I was driving them home from set, and my little green Prius and I remember and my dad super quiet on the ride, and all of a sudden he says, you know what, I think that it was Scott Foley's nose that Michael Jackson

was going for random. I love it, Dad thinks about that. Yeah, like the heat that, like Scott Folly has the epitome of like a gorgeous Anglican male. If the richest, you know, talented pop star in the world was like I could pick any nose in the world, it would be Scott foleys. And I was like, Dad, you're obsessing about Scott Folly's nose on the way home. So funny. We'll be right back, guys. Wait. In one oh seven is the episode where Carrie found

out that Gearmo Diaz liked boys. Yeah, this episode, I'll never forget it because she went the whole first season not knowing. I hate that. I hate that because I don't want you to have one moment of feeling like, well, why don't you tell me? You know? No, I'm just such you know what it is, because I you know, I put my head in the sand with the work. I'm just like so in the work, and I wasn't as into the gossip, which I also was a little strategic because I was like, I don't want to be

in the gossip. I kind of want to be Switzerland when it comes to the castle. Ye. So, but I remember turning to you and saying like, so, Gearmo, do you have a girlfriend. And I was like, kind of, I don't remember. He's so sexy and he's so funny and he's so smart and I'm taken, but boy, like I set him up if he's out with somebody's so hot. You also, you were you were more quiet for season. I mean it's not only like Carrie was not. You know,

that was a great player, but Garmo also wasn't. Like the only reason I knew was because I was like, where do you live? And he was like close to the parade, and I was like, what parade are you? You're talking about Saint Patrick? And I was game, Oh, I'll never forget. It was that seeky way of coming out. Do you think, well, Santa Monica, like you know, it's great, Like that's like he either said him right by the paraders. So I go to the parade and I was like,

what parade are we told? But also you guys got to remember I was born in the eighties like I was, you know, a teenager, and in my twenties during a time where this ship wasn't like people were like, all great, last time you and your boyfriend over, or like I was still very like guarded and like I don't know

if this is gonna change. Play all the roles people know, yes, yes, yes, such a trailblazer, and such a trailblazer, like being out letting people not and also like just saying, actually, now that I think about it, I think that you were really inspiring for me in terms of like when I got to a place where I was like, Okay, I'm not going to deny my personal life, but I also don't need to plaster it everywhere like you were. Just I'm living my life for me. I'm in my truth

for me. I'm not going to hide who I am, and I'm still going to play all the roles like I'm gonna I'm gonna be with women, I'm gonna be with men. I'm gonna be all of who I am and as an artist and also be in my truth as a human. So that means, oh, garmo is I remember running home and being like, oh is he out publicly, because even at the beginning of Scandal, I feel like actors, I think even a lot has changed in the last ten years, and I hope it continues to do so.

But I can remember in the beginning of Scandal me being like, I don't know if he's like out publicly, because I think that that's like a choice that actors make and whether or not they are do you talk about it or don't, And it's like a whole fucking thing. And I remember going home and being like, oh no, he's like really like out publicly. He's been in like gay magazines and like all this time. I remember the time I had done a movie called Stonewall about the

Stone all riots nine and I was the lead. I was a drag queen in it, and I remember my managers saying, you have to make a choice. Are you you're gonna be doing a lot of press. Are you gonna say you're gay? We think you shouldn't say you're gay, or are you gonna say you're you're straight? You know what I mean? And I had to make it, and I was like, there's no way I'm freaking lying. And from that point on, I was like I don't care, like,

this is who I am. If people don't want to work with me, then fine, then I don't want to work with them either. But I was like, I cannot be that person who's like, oh, there's no way, I'm too anxious for that ship. I was like, oh my gosh, when I'm going back and watching these episodes, which honestly carry you like not being my friend in one of the great loves of my life, I cannot believe the

acting you did in this part. You remember, like before the pilot, building all these things like her walk and her like neck tilt of like, and I just can't believe the person you built in your preparation for her. Did you coach with someone build her from the outside in? Was it you're fitting with Lynn Paolo? Like? How? Or did she? Was it a slow burn? Like I like, how did she come to be? No? It was actually

really interesting. I remember I remember working with Colleen on the audition, and I felt like, you know a lot of times when you are just meeting material. For me, the first work for that first hour was like what do I know about this? Where do I connect with her? How do I reveal myself in this? Right? Like? How do I find the places where she and I meet and then let the rest of it kind of fall away. So it was a lot of bringing myself to it.

But also that point in my career I had developed sort of Red Carpet Carrie who was a version of me. But it was like the version of me that I was learning to cultivate that wore fancy outfits and could go to all these premiers of all these movies I was in, and so she was like a larger than life version of me who stood differently and walked differently, and in a lot of ways, Olivia Pope was like her presentation of self in the world was a little bit Red Carpet Carrie, and then her her inner messy

emotional life was more my inner, messy emotional life. So that was kind of the job in the pilot. But then I remember meeting with Susan Batson again. I trained with Susan Batson and with Colleen Barry. Barry at the time maybe no basis to her Mary name is basis, but training with both of them for the audition, and I remember saying to Susan after I got it, how do I do this for all these episodes? Now because I don't want to just be myself on TV, like I have to figure out how to be specific about

where she ends and I begin. I felt like I didn't have to be that specific in the pilot. I was willing to be really messy about that. But I was like, if I don't start to have some delineation about where she and ten months of the year, like, that's now I go back to myself. You know, how do I return to who I am? So the clothes helped a lot. The shoes, like, I don't know if you guys remember, but I would roll up up set at crew call and be in sweatpants, but I always

had to have my foot on your heel. Yeah, yeah, I remember you never ever ever, First of all, opposite I'm a hack. I didn't wear my shoes as long as humanly possible, which actually, you know what, no fuck that, I'm not a hack. I've heard that Viola Davis does all of her Bessie and barefoot or an ugs because there either Harry and Olivia. Pope was like, I've never

I never saw you in rehearsal without your shoes on. No, I felt like they were really important for how to stand and how to walk, and then I figured out how to be her barefoot in my apartment. But but I always had to come if if I was going to be in shoes in the scene, I had to be in her shoes otherwise I wouldn't know where in

the room I would be. I just w that was sort of a real way into her, and all the cost seems were a huge part of it, Lynn Pawlow, because I felt like that was her armor the way you know her her expertise was storytelling and narrative and how people present in the world. So I knew that how she presented in the world had to be really specific, really on point, elegant, smart. So yeah, all that stuff

really really really really helped. And then giving over to the language, you know, in that like David mahmit way and that Shana Ram's way, like just giving over to the language. She she was there, she was in the world. I don't speak like that, but she's in the words. Yeah. And when when something is written really well, it's it flows out of your mouth so easily, it's so satisfying,

it's like delicious to say the words. Right. This chemistry between you and Tony Goldwin is the stupidest shit I've ever seen in my life. Like, I'm so wildly uncomfortable. I can't believe how good it is. I can't believe how steamy it is. I love you both as people

and individuals. I can't even believe what was happening. Yeah, and I'm curious, Like in the pilot, you guys make out in the corner beneath like a curtain, and then in to get away from the cameras, and then in this episode the finale, again you look up and you have a kiss, and he says to jog your memory, Like, if I resign or if I get arrested, you know whatever, for sleeping with Amanda Tan or whatever, at least I can be a normal person. I can be with you

and you like my kiss. But oh, we've also in season two, which Gamon and I are were ahead, you know, because we're such prepared people and learning number one. We just watched the episode. I also just watched the episode where you and he were like screwing in the break room that has all the cool green Yes, Christening, it was your prisoning outfit. It was sort of like nineteen sixties. It was a very beautiful Jackie. Oh exactly what killed

me about this chemistry thing? Tell me about you and Tony. Did you ever talk about it or were you just like it's bigger than both of us and thank god because it made everyone want to watch the show. Um, it's such a good question. I don't think we talked about it because I don't think we knew until audiences were watching it. We were just like two actors doing our job. It wasn't like the first time, no, you know what the maybe I need to be honest. That

is how we felt on set. But when we camera tested, when we did hair and makeup tests for the show, we did had yeah, weber that. I remember like doing the thing you walk on camera, you're in the clothes and with the hair, and then Tony comes in and we're walking together, and I remember Shanda and Betsy freaking out at the monitors and I was like, what's happening And they were like, you guys are just magic together and we were like, okay, so we have this sense,

but I knew Tony. So Tony and I had both done a lot of work with this organization called the Creative Coalition, which is a political advocacy organization ironically, and he was co president at the time, and so my I had never worked with Tony as an actor, but our interactions as human beings had been walking up and down the halls of Congress and at the White House talking to people about arts funding and arts for the humanity and funding for the humanities, and so I had

we had this like weirdly DC context for each other, and we had a great deal of respect for each other as like thinking human beings and as politically minded individuals, and so you know, I remember saying to Saanda, like, who's going to be the president on the show? Like, who's going to be the president? And I learned at

some like CIA. It was either at their Oscar party or their Emmy party, and Tony's manager was there and he came up to me and he was like, Tony's doing it, and I was like, yes, just because I knew how smart he was and he felt and Shonda said to me she felt like he was the right person because he had directed at Gray's early on, and she knew that whoever was going to play the president was somebody who had to have executive like somebody who felt like they could tell people what to do, like

they could boss people around and have like, you know, real intelligence and leadership. And she had seen that in him as a director, so I had a lot of respect for him. I loved him already as a person, and we just hoped it worked. We just we hoped it worked. And you can't really plan that stuff, right, I mean, you can't plan that your chemistry is going to work on camera? Really, no, right, I will say for me, I and this is I'm a little bit

of a chemistry slut, like I am. I do. I don't want to say it, but you're good at it. I never worry about having chemistry. Was the only time I can't have chemistry with an actor is if that actor has decided that they don't want to have chemistry with me. And I've been in those situations like walking into an audition where it's like down to me and one other girl and the lead actor has clearly wants the other girl, and I'm like, well, yeah, yeah, here's what.

I don't have chemistry if they if I don't like their smell, Like I'm just such a pheromone person, and I have been teamed up. I've been like I've had so many love interests on different things, and sometimes I was like, oh, like, I don't know this so like and I am acting and I'm just like acting so much because I have what I call the ick for like the person, like I just like have this, like I don't want to. But then I'm like, okay, it's a paycheck, it's pyech like, let's do this. Yeah, um,

that's so there. Here's the other thing that and you we would have to im sorry you say chemistry slunt, what does that mean? It means like that when it comes to finding ways to love a character. For for me to feel like my character really loves or likes another character, I don't find that hard. And I don't know if that's the aquarious in me that like, I just really like people and I see the good in people and I like it. I like a lot of different kinds of people, and so I don't I don't

usually have a hard time. In the history of Schaele, There's maybe been one actor where I was like, oh shit, let's not I guess. I guesses most of the love interests are like, you know, there are guys that I get along with, and so you're like I can figure this out, Like, yeah, it's sort of this idea of like there's somebody for everybody. Everybody's lovable in some way.

Can you look for the thing that's like that person's not for me, right, like, not everybody's for me, am I really, but for their character you can fall in love with something in them that you can get you. And also your chemistry was not only great with love interest people, but it was also great with like Quinn

and with oh my god, Abby this friendship. Yeah yeah, and also Scott Foley right like that, and it was sod, are you team fits or you know like that, Yeah, that's very I think that that also both of those guys, by the way, are I'm so lucky to have been able to have those two guys because they're the best, dude. But that's such a great example, right, because they're also so different, like Scott Foley and Tony Goldwin. You could

not find completely different different. But I was like, I'll figure this out with these guys and their characters, I will say, and we should ask Tony's permission before we whether this should stay in or not. But one of the amazing things that happened though, was I think it

was during season two. Tony said something. We were in like one of our canoodling bedroom scenes in Olivia Polpe's bed, and he said something we were talking about like life and love and marriage, just like talking and he said something that I said, Oh, that's so interesting, because my therapist said something like that to me last week. And he looked at me and he said, who's your therapist. We found out that we had the same tree. Oh

my god, oh god, the odds of that. He wasn't currently seeing this person but I still was, and you mention it to the therapist. My therapist was like, yeah, I know. Like he was like, there's not a surprise to me, but of course he couldn't have told me. Yeah, yeah,

but isn't that great? And it also helped so much because I had I felt like, you know, Tony and I had such great boundaries, boundaries with each other, like we were able to be in this like incredibly romantic space, but our boundaries as adult, as like responsible human beings were very clear. The ultimate respect for his wife, He

is the ultimate respect for my husband. Like we there was never any despite the tabloids, there was never any messy between he and I. We were like really responsible, accountable grown ups, you know, respectful of each other in each other's lives while still like taking those deep risks as actors. And also what a scary thing to be Like most people, if you get paired up as a love interest in a movie or something like the thing

is over in three months or whatever. But for you to have a love interest that's seven years long, Yeah, that's insane. After like, that's like in stat or my husband, Tony Goldwin is the person in my life who I've made out the longest because the boyfriend I was with but seven years, four or five years. Yeah, Tony after Godwin's the guy that I, you know, kiss the weird so so weird while weird so weird. This is the last episode in this season and the last episode, I

guess of season one of Unpacking the Toolbox. This podcast Unpacking the Toolbox so cute because of you guys and your toolbox. Yeah, so there's this, like I think the winning scene of this episode is so we had mentioned you and fits sort of kiss and you're like you look up and you're like cameras and he's like I don't give a shit, and you guys kiss anyway, because guess what if I go to jail or I resign, I can be whoever I want to be and I

can marry you. And then you see Olivia sort of make the decision like, oh, hell no, this isn't going to happen. So you go to Melly and you two have Bellamy's like first big scene. At this time, Bellamy is not a serious and the scene is like, you didn't do your job. You let that girl get in you let that girl, Amanda tan Or get in his pants. I'm doing I'm working my fucking ass off as the face and the wife and this that and the other thing.

And you've fucked up. You stopped being his mistress and you let him get away, and this is all your fault that he wants to resign. And this is really where we see Bellamy step into Melly, and from that scene you go and arrange a with with fits not even having a say in it. You arrange a interview on national television where she says that was me on

the sext right clothes, and so I'm so embarrassed. This is how Olivia and her planned together, working together to spin it, which is we're seeing the beginning of how we ended the series with Melie together, that you're doing this. It's crazy. So you two start working together and be this political animal where you decide that Fitz is not resigning. It was you on the sex tape, but we're gonna lie and say it was Mellie, and then she's going

to fake being pregnant. So by the end of this series, the two of them have to go off quickly and like have sex and have and make a baby. But it's the beginning of the Mellie Olivia like when they work together, it's like, holy shit, And we learned that Olivia's like, oh, hell no, I don't want to settle down and be normal. I mean, one of your memorable

lines is being normal is overrated. In this episode, it's the first time you see Olivia and you're like, oh wow, she And another memorable line in this episode is when Cyrus says, some men aren't meant to be happy, They're meant to be great. And I think that sort of connected to Olivia as well, because I think she felt that way too, you know what I mean, Yeah, yeah, she says, don't go be the man. I voted for yes, but all of us are like, you mean the man

that you the election for me? Okay, okay, well I voted. But the fact that you that you chose not to settle down with Fits, that Olivia chose not to go that route. I mean, he speaks volumes to who. Olivia was right, she knew her life was beyond that, Like she didn't want that. She was like, oh wait a minute, wait wait, no, no no, no, no, I'm good. I'm good being the most powerful woman in DC right now. Yeah,

so good, so wild. The show figured out what it was while it was happening, Like, it wasn't predestined that Mellie would be Melly, you know. So can you talk to us quickly about like when you realize that so much of this show was going to be relationships between you and Jake and Fits, and that Melly was going to be like a very big part of that. Yeah, I don't, it's so hard. I don't remember having a lot of perspective about what the show is about while

we were doing it. It was so la. It was a scene moment to moment like we were just on this I mean, we were on this rocket ship. I remember Josh Melina seeing the second episode during lunch, the second or third episode during lunch while we were filming, and that like room. We would sometimes get upstairs where we had table reads. And he turned to me and

he was like, you can carry a show. And like coming from Josh Maline Out who was like I watched all through college on West Wing, was like obsessed, Like you're so pitical that show. Yes, it was the show I had. Both Colleen and our friend Jody. We used to get together and cook recipes from the Moosewood Cookbook and watch West Wing every week. Um, but we like so when he said that, I was like, I just remember being like, oh my god, oh my god, oh

my god. I hope he's right. And then I remember you also because I didn't know I had mostly done movies, but I remember sitting in the hair makeup trail and Katie. You were like episode three and I was like what about it? And you were like the script is really good and I was like okay. You're like, well that's when you know if you have a show or not. And I was like, oh really, oh god, try Katie out, yea, check you out, Katie. Well it's easy to make two.

You were like things fall Aparted episode three. Yeah, you're like, episode three is when you really have to know whether you can make a show. And I was like, oh, that's exciting because I think this episode is pretty good. I just was so green, you guys, I didn't know anything. I didn't know anything. You're calling us to do backstories, like, I don't think anyone does that, but what I mean they do in movies. Business of it, the business of it, I was so green about, and like the the TV

of it, I was so green about. So I wasn't green as an as an actor, Like as an actor, I was so invested and felt like I was just like, you know, the hog and mud like. So it doing everything I wanted to be doing. But I didn't know what it meant. I didn't know what the marketing men I didn't. I didn't. I just you know, yeah, I just moment to moment, I just wanted yeah, and it speaks. It's it's like, it's about the work. Right. It sounds like sort of corny and cliche, but it's it's about

the work. If the work is good and everything else that we have no control over, right, that that'll either fall into blaze or it won't and it and yes, yes, yes, And what I what I'm really proud of sitting here right now in this moment is also that it was about the process and the people. Because I remember so much more about your first house that you bought, Katie.

I remember so much more about game or your conversations about going back home in New York and what that was like, and like are the reveal of the clothing in the sacks windows and your parents waving at us through the window. Forget it. I'll never forget that. These little details I remember more than any episode of the show we ever shot, because I was so invested in

you as people. I was invested in our like we were on this rocket ship and we couldn't control like Mars and the comets and the stars, and like we didn't, but on ship, we had each other. And I'm really proud of how we did that. It really all stems

from you, Kerry, I'm serious. And the other thing about all of this pressure and everything about being the first black woman in forty years to be on a show, I remember, for one second, like I don't know if you ever felt this, or maybe I put this in my head that you said this in or I remember you being like, this has to succeed, Like what would have happened had it not? Yeah, I knew, I knew

we failed. It would be another forty years. But instead, because we didn't fail, we got to have How to get Away, and we got to have Brianka Chopra and her show. We got to have all these women of color leading network shows Station nineteen, Like, we got to have this world where women of color were number ones on the call sheet and it was no longer a big quote unquote risks. Anyway, I love you guys so much. I can't tell you how fun this first season of

Unpacking the Toolboxes such a freaking blast. It's been such a blast. I hope I hope we get to do like listen, like every single season. I hope we do all seven seasons. And that's to you all listening too. Yeah, Like, yeah, you guys like it, Tell your friends and we'll give you more life. We'll bring you more behind the scenes hot goss from Yeah, We're going to bring all the

guests more superstars. That's right, peace. Hopefully the next episode up is two h one White Hats Off, Yeah, premier of the second season but come on, you guys, give me a fucking break. The first season, we brought to you Shan Rhymes, we brought to you Tony Golden, we brought to you Lives a Wheel. We brought you Cary Washington. So stick with us. Please tell your friends this is and also because as per usual, I just want to hang out. We just want to Willy Willie Diaz all,

Oh my god, I love you so much. Hi, everyone, this is Willie Dias sign off. Goodbye, Gladiatory Gladiators on the app piece. Thank you guys for joining us on Unpacking the Toolbox. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, share with your friends, rate, or leave us a review. Scandal is executive produced by Sandy Bailey, alex Alcha, Lauren Hohman, Tyler Klang, and Gabrielle Collins. Our producer and editor is

Vince de Johnny, with music by Chad Fisher. Scandal is a production of ABC Signature, and you can follow along by rewatching Scandal on Hulu. Unpacking the Toolbox is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app or anywhere you subscribe to your favorite shows.