S3 – INTERVIEW 1: Adam Wood

Adam's work in the pages of Reparologist magazine. Adam has curated and sharpened the questions, speculation, and debates around the Whitechapel murders, as well as editing good work by others. Adam has also written detailed studies of people like Donald Swanson and coroner Win Baxter, who you'll know well from this season of Unobscured. But Adam's contribution to understanding Victorian

Whitechapel goes beyond the pages of books and magazines. He has been essential to developing the community of writers and thinkers hunting the killer online and in person, and conferences and conversations about Whitechapel have relied on Adam for guidance and insight for years. Were delighted to have his perspective on Unobscured. Researcher Carl Nellis asked Adam to describe how he came to write a biography of Donald Swanson and met the Swanson family along the way. That's where we'll

get started. This is the Unobscured Interview series for season three. I'm Aaron Manky. I began researching for an article of Replogious magazine which, as you said on the editor on and it's regarding the Swanson marginalia which our pensonentations made by Donald Swanson his retirement, which seemed to identify Jack the Ripper. And while I was researching for that article was someone asked where if I'd like to be introduced to the Swanson family, and of course I jumped at

the chance. It turned out they didn't live too far from me, and they kept a vast amount of papers, notebooks and documents belonging to Donald, and most of it was information which has never been seen before outside of the family. I quickly realized there was a fantastic story needing to be told, So when that article was finished, I told the family would like to write a book,

and they couldn't have been more helpful. I made a number of times with Donald's great grandson Nevill swansor it would hand me a box of material exchange for one which I just photographed, and eventually I sorted everything in chronological order first and then researched each case or incident in Swanson's life to build up the complete picture before writing it up. That seven years later got to the point where the book was almost in good shape yea.

And very early on I realized as an opportunity not just to tell swanson story, but also to relate the evolution of the Met Police throughout that period, so I could link it together all the appointments and regular nations of the various police commissioners, which has a bearing on police activity during the White Shape or murders. So the events in the book didn't just happen in isolation. And

I realized everything has context. One incident leads to another, and so one, and in Swanson's career and personal life, I wanted to get across that context, so it gives us an understanding of why certain events happened in the

way that they did. Yeah, let's explore a little bit more about what he just said, that the book covers far more than the Whitechapel murders, and by following Swanson's life story we get to see kind of a lot about Victorian London, but beyond London too, because of course he grows up in Scotland and he has contacts outside of London. He investigates cases that have implications and the

reaches of empire. Um. So maybe would you offer us a few thoughts on what's valuable in your opinion about studying the Victorian period in that kind of robust way following the eyes of particular people, But really, what do we get when we step into the Victorian world? What does it offer us? Well? I think the mid to light Victorian era is extremely important in terms of studying place history, particularly because the Metropoluan Force it on even

formed forty years before Swanson joined in. They're still senting officers for Cutler's training in response to the Fenian bombing campaign, which is ongoing at the time, and the Detective Department was only twenty five years old. And by contrast, when Swanson retired, the men had just started using fingerprint evidence. So the thirty five years of Swanson's career covering the late Victorian period saw an enormous development and forensics and

methods of detection. We can carry that evolution through to more recent times, the introduction of the photo fit, chemical composition forensics and of course DNA before we really step into exploring the White Chapel case and in East London in detail. UM, I'd love to just for our listeners, especially to hear a little bit more about the work that you've done for reparologists and maybe Mango books as well. UM, to give a little sense of what you really bring

to this study. Well, I've been on the editorial board at Reparatist magazine since which is three years after the magazine was founded, and I've been the exact de editor since two thousand and eight. Our most recent issue is number A hundred and sixty seven, So it gives you an idea of how much work is in that in that volume. And I think it's interesting looking back over the articles over the years to see how attitudes to

the Whitechapel murders case have changed. I've had fads for various suspects, the Diary of the Ripper and more recently katherinett o'shaw, we're just tested for DNA. So there's been a lot of changing attitudes over the years. It's been really good for me personally as the editor of the magazine because it's helped me to stay neutral in my approach to the case. I don't really have a favorite

suspect as such in the Ripper investigation. But when I started work on the Swanson book in twos and twelve, as I said earlier, with the amount of offshoots and different lines of research, I knew that was going to be in there. I thought it was going to be unlikely if I went to a mainstream book publisher to get the whole story, told if I happen to chop out at least half of the research. So I decided

just to self publish it. Basically, my backgrounds in graphic design and printing expertise, so I decided to self publish it and just really cover everything that I found in the research. And a friend of mine, Neil Bell, who's a core from the first book that had published in Mango Books, h said, Yeah, that's a great idea. Swampson

can be completely as you want it. But I've got on an idea for a book, which is the Police Code nine, which was the guide for the Victorian Police that the director the c I D. Howard Vincent, had created. We took the versions as a really as an exercise to to try out the printer that I identified and see if they're you know, the marketing expertise. It went very well, and then someone said, I didn't know you're a publisher. I've got an idea on the craze, another

Eastent crime story, and it just went from there. Every time I published a book, didn't intend to create Mango Books at such. It was more of a personal um project. I just get getting more and more sudden sitions and

I think it's gone very very well. And now there's probably about thirty five to forty titles on the Mango Books in print and Blue Lamp Books, which is police history various topics ranging from Victorian era through to the craze in the sixties, and for me personally has been obviously quite good setting up the bit, not only the business side of things, but I've learned quite a lot as well with various cases um learning the publishing industry.

But I do I do always say that that that the creation of Mango Books is probably half the reason why the Swanson book took seven years rather than the

two and a half that I've planned in the first place. Yea, ah, well, so many of us are both grateful for your work and reparologists and from Mango Books and the kinds of things you've produced, and in this case in particular, of course, I'm really glad that you made that choice with Swanson, because it did mean it can be a little bit of a unique project that has, as you say, so many offshoots, so many interesting aspects that if it was

being published elsewhere, might have been kind of shaved off without UM. But there's so much interesting detail, and it really gives us a sense for the texture of of his life and gives us fascinating glimpses into the world around him. UM. Let's step into that world. Let's go to London's East End in UM and start talking about crime in London at that time. UM, there's violent crime on record in the neighborhood, uh throughout the eighteen eighties.

But if we focus only on the White Chapel murders, it might give us a slightly distorted picture of what life was like there. So how violent was White Chapel and surrounds in the eighties? What was the general understanding of that violence among the people who lived there, maybe the middle as readers of the press, the police, what was Can we get a clearer picture of maybe violence

in White Chapel in eighties? Well, I think the thing to remember about the East End at that time was it that that was the area where most poverty in London was really where the residents suffered, and through that and the desperation at those poor people felt the crime crime was was bred. And that was also the area where the immigrants first landed when they arrived in London.

So there was simmering tensions among the whole population really, But fifty years earlier, the rookeries where the poor and the criminal classes congregated were to be found in the east in the West End, rather in St Charles area and spill Fields and White Chapel in the early teen

hundreds were by comparison and quite prosperous. When the West End was developed, a large number of people were forced from the rookeries, and when Oxford Street and Sharp Revenue, which are well known West End streets now were developed, St Charles area was Demolis. All the five five thousand poor residents were relocated to the East End. And when you combine that large movement of poor, poverty stricken residents into an area, as to say, which had been prosperous,

but the buildings were getting older and dilapidated. Certainly the the the sewage facilities around the East End were getting dated. It just become too overcrowded um and obviously, unfortunately poverty and overt and overcrowding does bread criminal element. And with the mistrust of the growing numbers of Jewish imrigrants settling in Whitechapel, the area was a bit of a powder keg waiting to explode, and is not surprising in those

in that situation. The unprovoked attacks on others or domestic violence was was quite commonplace and to some degree expected, and of course with the press until the Ripper murders, it was almost sort of overlooked the East endia. It was incredible how close it was to the city which obviously at that time London, the UK had a large empire run from London, and it was interesting and surprising

really how close to that center of that empire. East End was, but it was almost forgotten about and pushed to one side. So the problems that the East Ends were having with violence and all the poverty, we were ignored by the press until the Ripper came along. So in a way it sort of acted as a little bit of a sort of social cleanser. But violence less so much murder, but more petty violence and domestic violence was quite prevalent in the East End that time, m HM.

And Donald Swanson as a member of the police is in that environment, not always in the East End, often serving elsewhere in London. But is there something we could say to kind of sum up a commonality to the majority of crimes investigated by Donald Swanson during that time If it wasn't murder after murder after murder, um, what kinds of crimes was he investigating and how often was

he in the East End versus elsewhere in London? Well, the street violence was usually dealt with by the uniform policeman on the beat, and those officers were who gained promotion such as spons would be transferred to a different division within the mat So not always once you became a sergeant inspector or joined the detectives, you'd move out of one division move into another, and so it was

his sponsor. And he served the first two years of his career as a police comsortable in a division which is in Westminster where the government and other official buildings were situated. So it's unlikely that in those early years he saw much in the way of street violence while

on his beat. He was transferred to Y Division in Highgate, which is North London, and the following year promoted to sergeant, transferred to Bowen in East London in eighteen seventy one, and then from there to Plast those stations also in the East End, and finally he's moved to Scotland Jared

in eighteen seventy six. So he served as hople of five years in the East End during the early eighteen seventies, and he probably knew the area well, but because he served his early days on the beach, where he would have seen that sort of violence were really served elsewhere. Although he had been aware that the Eastern was a very violent area, he wouldn't have seen much personally. In Swanson.

You tell an interesting story of a case and and the coverage in the book is brief, and I've gone back and looked at the newspapers and and the coverage of the papers is brief, but this is seventeen years before the Whitechappel murders. In one. Uh, some of our main figures that we think about when we think about the Whitechappel murders, especially Frederick Aberline, and now with your book so healthfully lifting Swanson to the same deserved level

of attention. Uh. Those two men together infiltrated in the illegal playhouse. Can you describe that operation? Well, that's the only case I was able to find were Swanson and Outline work together. But there must have been more, as though we both stationed at Kentish Town Police station for the fifteen months that's wantson was on Wy Division, so that they must have they must have worked more closely.

But this one, as you said, found out for yourself, Carlie, is the only one in the newspapers, and it's only briefly reported on. But it occurred in July one. Swanson was a PC and Aberline a sarjump and complaints have been made to the police that the infamous fear to Presario in Presario, George Sanger was putting on plays without a license, and to get around this he placed advertisements

stating that entry was free. But when nearly four dred people turned up on the night, they were told they had to buy a program before they had gained admittances. Ab Line went along in playing clothes and watched the performance and observed what the new newspapers described. Got it written here as several drunks, men of a doubtful character and women have an immral character causing nuisance to the billet to the public in justslymation. What an evening that

that was like. Sanger eventually appeared before the magistrates and was fined just five pound. And I know a little bit about saying that he he did go on to continue with these with these um illegal playhouse career, should we say, And he was quite quite notorious. Swanson was transferred to Bow in the East End three months later, on Atline

to Whitechapel two years later. And as you said, they worked on the near ripro investigation to get and there's no doubt at that time they would have remembered each other and in facting Swanson's personal address book, which I'm very lucky to own, he's got Abelene's address in that address book, Um, where where he retired to? So the detectives obviously remained friendly throughout all those years. M hm. So let's spend a little more time focused on Donald Swanson.

Who he was. Um, he's a Scott from ter So you give a compelling portrait of his early life and his entry into the London Police. And I've heard you say in other parks that when you're reading biographies you're often frustrated when all the early life gets skipped over in the first page. And that's just onto something that happens when the subject is in their fifties or something like that. So let's talk a little bit about some

of that early formation of who Swanson was. Um, can you give us a picture of his of his family and where he grew up? Well, Swanson, I think perhaps uniquely among policemen of that time. You know a lot of a lot of comfortables joined the police, were from out of London, laborers or farm workers and came looking for regular work, which which the police obviously was at that time. Um. But Swanson grew was born to a

brewing family. His father, John Swanson, moved around Cafe Nest, which is in the far north of Scotland, even beyond the Highlands. If you tell anyone from Thurso where he grew up, that we grew up in the Highlands, they get quite upset because they count it as the lowlands

up there. But he's his family moved around from basically from distilleriy distillery, very small affairs, even brewing whiskey breen beer rather or just still in whiskey m and I visited the small farmhouse where where he was born and it's just literally a small stone affair on a on a bend of a river with sheep grazing around. There's there's nothing around for about seven or eight miles. Unfortunately,

Donald's father, John Swanson, had an accident. This is this is before Donald was born, but his mother was pregnant with him. He had an accident where he got his clothing was caught in a bit of shanery in his

student his arm was dragged in. Eventually had to have that removed, and with the elder sons having to left home for other types of work, John Swanson couldn't continue in that trade anymore and moved to thursoh which was the nearest town about seven miles away, and that was quite That was quite good for Donald because it was he meant he didn't have to work in the distillery, didn't become a laborer on the farm. He obviously had

quite a high degree of intelligence. Um he was. He went to the local school in thursoh which at that time it wasn't compulsory to send your children to school and it was basically had to pay for an education. But I think that his parents must have seen something in there youngest son, Donald and they paid for him

to go to school. He spent eleven years into schools in thirdsone and proved to be an exceptional pupil, regularly winning prizes in educational and annual educational examinations, and eventually, by Tommy was sixteen, he became a second master at the Miller Institute, which is the school he was in assisting the head teacher, and it looked as though he had a career marked out in education. But I'm not quite sure there's there's there's two possible reasons why he

gave up that job in the June and moved to London. Either, as as often reported, he didn't see much of a future in education, but again that that could have been a secure trade for for someone like night Donald Um, but also his two sisters and had married to firemen in and had moved to London. I don't know how that came around. I don't know whether the two firemen and been to Scotland and met or the girl. The two sisters had gone to London met than there, but

they're both married firemen and had children. Sister Mary, her husband Peter, died in early only sixty seven, and again unfortunately, she was pregnant and gave birth to Donald's niece, Petro sheer Um and Donald went to London quite soon after and stayed with the second sister. Now I don't know whether, as I said, Donald just gave up turned his back on a educational career, or he went to London to support the family, which I suspect may have been the case.

He got a job quite quickly in the offices of a city clerk, just as a general clark. Nothing nothing too strainuous, but again some degree of intelligence was required.

But the interesting thing is that that his employer, John Michele, would later write that he knew he'd known of Donald Swanson for a number of years, and I suspect although I haven't found any evidence that John Michaele was related in some way to Robert Michael, who was Donald's tutor at the school back in thursoh So John Michall, he was in his late fifties at this time. He had been working in London for quite some time. He was

from Manchester. I think it Rothery's Scott who had made a home in Manchester and he decided to close the business and retire move back to Lancashire UM in the March of eight and Donald had a choice then, you know, did he move back to Third Zone, resume teaching career or did he look for work in London? And he literally picked up that day's newspaper and looked in the Situations can Colum and saw an advert from the Metropolitan Police and just literally that day just just wrote in

a letter of application UM. And that was the start of his career. Mhm, m hm. So let's continue stepping

forward in his career. Maybe talk about a couple of significant moments for policing London after the time when Donald had joined UM, especially thinking of the turf fraud scandal of eighteen seventy seven and the trial of the detectives, um, what were the consequences for the reputation of the police in London and and the structure of the police force even and and what was what was someone Swanson doing at the time of the turf fraud scandal on The turf fraud was a long running scam in which a

London game committed a fraud on a rich French widow. They pretended to be honest bookmakers and promised to guaranteed winnings on horse races. And it went in for some months, and the gang slowly encouraged her to send more money until he has listened to discover she sent ten thousand pound which was the equivalent of more half a million pounds to day. You think she would have realized long before that point the money you're sending wasn't guaranteeing the

same amount of income. But Superintendent Frederick Williamson of the Detective Department sent his best men to investigate. But for some reason, the gang always seemed to be one step ahead and avoided arrest. They're eventually captured and sent to prison, but one of them then wrote to the government revealing the reason they had been so difficult to arrest. Was that the detectives had been bribed to warn them when

the police were getting close. Three detectives from the department and one corrupt solicitor were put on China found guilty as you say in eighteen seventy seven, and the result was that the Detective Department of Scotland Yard was completely disbanded and replaced by a new system called the Criminal Investigation Department, or the c i D. All of the detectives who had served in the old department that had not been arrested replaced on free months probation had to

prove they could be trusted. Luckily, for Donald, he had only been appointed to detectives two weeks before the discovery of the turf fraud, so he can have been evolved in the cover up by the corrupt detectives. One there's no evidence he was in any way less than honest. Had he joined six months earlier, it might have been difficult to resist the large amount of regular money on offer in the form of bribes, but as it was.

As one of the first new officers of the new c i D, he was one of the new wave of young detectives who helped restore the reputation of the department following the scandal. Do we know what his role was in reforming that? That's the idea. After the scandal, well, there were around that time there were in the detective department. Before the fraud was discovered, there were I think just just a dozen detectives and they covered the whole of London. Um Donald was working I think in class Bow station

when he took his detective examinations became a sergeant. Of course, at that time there was no detective departments within each of the divisions, so if you become a detective, he basically moved to Scotland Yard. So he became detective sergeant and moved and moved there. But Um, the first the first sort of two or three weeks, I'm sure he was just finding his feet. While the detectives are waiting

for trial. There was a notorious forger called called himself Captain George, which I think is a fantastic name of how you wouldn't be suspicious for someone who introduced themselves as Captain George, uh and to try and swindle you out of your money I think would be quite quite unusual.

But he eventually was rested recognized by Swanson honor surveillance with another detective called Frederick Saw and they followed him go into a fence to mostly porn porn or change the bonds that he Captain George had stolen, and he

was he was well wanted all around Europe. Eventually they caught him and it was quite an interesting example in Swanson's personal memoranda where he writes about the arrest of Captain George and when they tried to take him to Scotland Yard, they call a passing cab and they wrestle him in and he's sat between the two of them and the just having a bit of a chat, and and suddenly Captain George becomes very violent and tries to get this piece of paper out of his pocket which

has got his confirmation of his address and his name and all those details which obviously would have secured his conviction. But he tries to shove the paper into his health to try eating the evidence, and Swanson's grabbing one arm and Shaw's grabbing the other, and they're wrestling, and as the cabs rattling along towards Scotland Yard. Um, I think Share gets bitten for his trouble and Swampson tries dragging

the paper out of his mouth, but they do. They do get him to court and he is arrested and convicted and I think there's someone from Switzerland has come over from the Swiss police and they taken away to be tried for crimes over there. But that was one of probably one of the first cases that Swanson was involved with once he became a detective, so again different

sort of work. Rather than being a police comfortable or sergeant where they'll be sent by someone to arrest someone, he was the one that was doing the investigation and conducting the surveillance. And then a few years later we get to another volatile period in London policing that ends up again changing the structure and I believe leads to the formation of Special branch Um or what eventually become

Special Branch. Can you describe the Fenian bombing campaign of the eighteen eighties and what role Donald Swatson would have had as a member of CIETY at the time. Well, the Fenian bombing campaign started in eight eighty one and it lasted for four years. There was a previous campaign in the eighteen sixties and again they were trying to establish Irish independence. But in the eighteen sixties heads of state and other notable people were attacked in an attempt

to highlight the campaign. But the eighties they were they were a little bit more direct in that they realized that if they targeted landmarks around around London and elsewhere around the UK, that they didn't still fear in the public and achieve an audience with the government. Um. And in the age eighties there are nineteen bombs exploded in Brittany Leavin in London, and these were places such as

Scotland Yard itself was attacked. There were there were bombs put around the base of Nelson's Column which failed to explode. At London Underground saw four explosions. And it's quite interesting because obviously in the UK this is something that happened quite a lot in the seventies with the I RARA similar sort of thing um. But in terms of in terms of Swanson's involvement, he had been in the c I D for five years and he build a reputation as a discreet and shrewd officer, had been well known

for his arrest of the railway murder. Personally for him made returning and eighty one, and he'd been entrusted with delicate investigations involved in the aristocracy, and this time he was taken under the wing of Superintendent Williamson, who was incidentally quiet Um, an ill man. He was greatly regarded by all the police officers and the public and the press, but he obviously wasn't very well and was perhaps looking for a younger detective that he could act as a mentor.

So and it seems to have been sponsored so that the two officers worked together quite on a quite a number of investigations and in both the Fenian campaign and later with the Bloody Sunday rights in trafug were square. They worked together looking at the overall picture of rather than individual incidents, and there were piecing together a direction for the investigation. And that's exactly what happened later on in the River case when sponsor was appointed by the

Commissioner Shovels warrant to leave the investigation from Scotland Chard. Yeah, let's talk about Charles Warren a little bit. Can you briefly describe who he was and his career leading up to to six and then and then how would you describe Warren's relationship to the various players in London policing and governance, you know what to find his approach to policing as commissioner. Warren had enjoyed a hugely successful military

career and he was a skilled surveyor and archaeologist. He had served in Gibralt, to the Palestine, South Africa, and was in Egypt. And how Secretary Huge Shilders wrote to him offering the position of Commissioner of the Met. He was wanted to take the place of the existing Commissioner's Readmund Henderson, who had been popular since his appointment in eighteen sixty eight, but in recent years had grown out of touch with the growing force and his own men.

When a riot took place in eight and eighty six and the Met bandly bungled its response, Henderson was forced to resign. And Shielders had met Warren four years earlier and was obviously impressed with his no nonsense attitude. He was exactly the man that Childer's thought was needed to restore public order in a time of riots and to bring them met back into shape. And and when when Warren was appointed, immediately brought an increased drill training to

get the bobbies in the beating better shape. He wrote to the government asking for better uniform and boots, because he realized from his military pass that the men needed to be equipped as best as possible. So Warren increased the fitness and the efficiency of the uniformed officer as an effectively molding them into a kind of army. He left the detect due department to his assistant commissioners and

his appointment was where received at first. But the problems began when Schilders lost his post as Home Secretary following a general election and a man named Henry Matthews was appointed. Whereas Warren had he joined Shilders backing right from the start, the commissioner would be unsure whether he could rely on Matthews for support. How many officers in the police command structure had done foreign service, like like Warren had. You

know you said he was in Egypt. How common was it for soldiers returning from overseas to take a post in one of London's police forces? And and did Warren have an influence on that? As you mentioned, he brought a different kind of attitude, discipline, drilling equipment um to the London police forces. But did he have any change in recruitment as well. Well. The senior posting the map right from the start were usually filled by the military or legal men who had never served in the police.

The first commissioners actually were Charles Rowan would the Napoleonic War wasn't at Waterloo, and Richard Maine, who was a barrister.

Main's eventual replacement, Edmund Henson, who we just spoke about, was lieutenant colonel in the British Army, and all the assistant commissioners were also military men because it was generally believed that this was required to maintain discipline over the rank and file police officers, and so the highest rank that someone like Swanson could achieve through promotion was superintendent. And this this was not something that Warren or any

other commission who really had a control over. That was a Home Office policy. Um it wasn't for many years until into the twentieth century when that started to change. So what although Warren gladly accepted the offer as a commissioner, it was never something that he intended to continue forever, shall we say, He knew it was only basically to bring them back into shape, and then he had returned

to his military career, which obviously he did later. Was was that also true for the for constables and kind of the barbies on the beat? Where were they being recruited from? You mentioned earlier farmers and that any thing, But it was there a more general way to describe

the backgrounds of those officers. Yeah, Well, the constables that were invited or or would apply to join the police where they'd always start at the bottom and generally they'd have three months training after they after they joined up, UM, they'd have to be physically examined and then they'd have

a very rudimentary educational test. And the reason for that really was that the the should we say, the more physical applicants who were laborers or um farm workers, people that used to working outdoors would become exceptional bobbies on the beat because they were used to the rigors of the physical demands. You know, they'd be walking up eight or nine hours a day, um, NonStop around around the streets.

Whereas people that would apply like Swans and little Child other officers who obviously had had a degree of education or showed some signs of UM intelligence when they at this rudimentary test, they were usually placed into a division which was Westminster. UM, not in Scotland Jards right away, although Scotland Yard was on a division itself. There are other police stations in a division. And yeah, and Swanson

was serving at King Street. And this was really what they'd call the pool or the reserve of officers, so that when extra help was needed that have this sort of intelligent core, if you like, of um of police constables. And you'd find that in those early years the constables that had been more of a physical background would remain

on on division really throughout their careers. They may get promoted to sergeant, but they would serve their years in the same streets, whereas the more intelligent officers, educated officers would be moved around that they'd become the detectives and work their way up in that way, eventually making their way to Scotland Yard in the main mm hm hm. And you mentioned that there was but things got more difficult for Charles Warren at the top as Commissioner when

Shoulders leaves the Home Office and Matthews comes in. UM. And then as we'll go forward, I'm I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about about some of that conflict between Warren and as Commissioner and Matthews as Home Secretary. Do we know about how Swanson, as a member of the c I D would have been involved or maybe stayed uninvolved from the kind of politics and arm wrestling

that would have happened in the leadership. Well, it's very difficult to say, because those sort of opinions don't appear anywhere in Swanson's personal recollections. I was a little bit disappointed, although not surprised, to be honest, when Nevil Swapson was giving me these number of boxes with all the notepads

and private documentation. I was hoping that I would find like a secret diary that not necessarily talked about that he's work on the Ripper or anything like that, but would real some of his more of his personal feelings about some of the officers he worked with. Um there's nothing at all about about Warren Anderson or anyone else with the colleagues, which I'm sure we talk about a

little or later. So, although I suspect that um swamps Swampson would have recognized that that Warren was working on hard on behalf of his men to get you know, the better equipment the better pension plans, that sort of thing. There's no there's no incidences anywhere to say how Swapson failed about that. I suspect he just supported his boss, who he recognized, as I said, was doing his best

for his employees, which are obviously the officers. Were there other things you did find, maybe not comments about his colleagues, but other aspects of his personal documents or the reminiscences of his family that give you a picture of his kind of personality and opinions about other things. Well, again not necessarily in terms of opinions, but certainly an insight into into his character. I mean, and he's professional on

the face of it. On his professional side, he was just very firm, but fair and methodical in his work and everyday manner. He seems to be a modest guy who didn't seek out the limelight. Um and in fact, to be honest, it would be horrified to learn there

would have been a book written about him. But there's there's one ledger which I think he was writing his cases in the mid to late eighteen seventies and up until perhaps two when he really sort of took on some delicate cases where he is a little bit more for fright in his thoughts on the work there and there's there's one case in the book which I talk about where um, a lady should we say, of a of a of a uncertain background, had almost became the

Duchess of Somerset from through marriage um and and it's just like an amazing story and that it was just started off as a fraud where there's pages stolen from her baptism register in a west end church um and and the Duke of Somersets solicitors look at it and

they realized that the dates have been altered. And when Swanson is called in by the actually by the vicar of that church wondering why the pages have been stolen, doesn't take long for just wants them to work out that these pages have been stolen as any sort of memento or anything like that. So he speaks to the solicitors, who finds out this sort of forged document there um and then really starts looking into this lady m h M Mrs Moore. Her married name was Lillian Stanhope was

was her maiden name. And it turns out that she's literally lived a completely bizarre life from a show going live of Paul who worked as a notorious prostitute. Um big amost marriages, litigimate children, all sorts of things going on the background there. H And as I said Swanson, it was he was almost beside himself in this ledge. As you right, he writes the case up um and

then he looked, he looks at the right at the end. Um. She was about to be arrested, but she she persuaded a doctor to say the woy, she's pregnant, so you can't do anything until the baby has been born. And it took ten months before they realized that it was another another fraud UM on that. But in the meantime, the Duchess of Somerset u use her influence to stop any any arrest or or any conviction of Lillian Saint. More So, Swanson recognizes what's gone on, and he does

writing's again you gotta remember these are personal comments. He didn't. I'm sure he'd been horrified to know that anyone would read these. He's saying, it's a disgraceful um blocking of justice. Um, this this woman is complete so and so UM. But that that's prutty, you know, that's the only sort of instances where he's got any opinion that's not just you know, the policeman in him, just writing things down in a

matter of fact way. M hm. Past studies of the White Chapel murders that focus on the police have explored the roles of of Charles Warren, of course, the commissioner Frederick Aberlein, who had that career in White Chapel and h Division and then is brought back because he's so familiar with it to do with the investigation. Uh, you know, it's covered Anderson. Um. Why has Donald Swanson's role often

been overlooked in previous work about the White Chapel murders. Well, I think until the Swanson marginalia was discovered in the eighties, Swanson's involvement the investigation was virtually unknown. Obviously, he's he's if you look at the police files that were opened in the nineteen seventies to the to the public um and then and then it was controlled. He just appears as an officer who has written some reports. Um, as many other officers have written reports. You don't really realize

how much of a central figure he was. But the marginalia was discovered alongside in the in the family archives, alongside a memorandum written by Charles Warren which appoints sponsor to lead the investigation from Scotland Yard. And before these discoveries of policeman, attracting most attention were those who the newspapers reporters of could access, as you say, such as

White Chapel detectives are blind and read um. The newspaper reporters would obviously be going around Whitechapel and there'd no from H Division who would be working on the case. Um. And I think combine that, combined with a blanket ban on not speaking to reports from Scotland Yard, Swanson's name hardly appears in any newspapers from and as result, the older books on the Ripper don't sometimes even mention him

at all. And it's not really until the discovery of the marginalian the memorandum that his role has been recognized and reevaluated and his position here the investigation is now understood. James Monroe hands over the c I D to Robert Anderson.

Who were these two men and what were the circumstances of that transfer of the row in c I D. James Monroe had expected to be appointed Director of the c i D un the departure of Charles Howard Vincent Um, but the position was changed to become Assistant Commissioner rather than Director of the c i D. Monroe had to

report to the Commissioner Edward Henderson. Is that the director at the Home Office, as vincent had dumb a. Monroe then thought he would replace Henderson as Commissioner when he was when he resigned in eighty six, I need to see Charles Warren appointed. And as a result there was constant friction between the two for the a team moths

they worked together. Robert Anderson had been employed at Scotland Charge for several years an advisor on Phenia matters, and he was a friend and he became a friend of Monroe, and the two work together on the Phenian bombing campaign in the early eighties. By the summer of Monroe had enough of his own battles with Home Secretary Henry Matthews as well as Charles Warren, resigned and Anderson replaced him as Assistant Commissioner, primarily because Matthews knew he was one

of the few officers who would work with Warren. So there are a few aspects of this case that brought the police in for criticism, maybe more than a few, but uh, one of the aspects that that drew particular fire for. You know, reading the newspapers of the time, you see harsh criticism for um absentee leadership. And one

of those officers that we've just been talking about, Robert Anderson. Ah, he was absent from office on the day that Marian Nichols was killed, and he continues a monthly and sick leave the day after any chapman is killed. Um, can you describe the c i D without him? With him not present, how would the office have functioned? Well, it's quite quite a good alibi for Anderson there. He maybe

he should be put forward as a suspect. Actually, Um, and Anderson, as you said he was, He was absent for quite probably the core of the early investigation really. But it's interesting in his memoirs he makes it sound as if the c i D couldn't cope without him and the department was demoralized by Monroe's departure, But in reality, the c i D was in was in pretty good shape.

The senior officers such as Swanson, Naberline, and little Child had all worked their way up the ranks, and we vastly experienced, and they certainly were professional enough to continue their work despite the departure of their boss and the absence of Anderson. Uh. Certainly when it when it comes to October, they managed to organize and carry out a detailed house to house in search in March Apple while Anderson was away. So I think that it was more

of an issue for the press. It was. It was an opportunity for them to bash the police for not catching the killer. Um what was Anderson doing? He was away Warren and in the early days was also on the holiday, so there was no leadership at the top, but certainly the officers on the ground who were doing the work and at Scotland jards such as Swanson, we're working flat out, you know, and you can look at the reports in the official police files to see you know,

certainly work was going ahead there. And when Anderson came back, obviously he resumed control or took control of the c I D for probably for the first time, um, and and then almost made it known that you know, now I'm back in charge, everything is going to be okay. Um. But you know, I think that the the main problem for and with Anderson been away, was was for the press, and they probably quite delighted, to be honest, that he wasn't there. It gave them a reason to give the

police a bit of a bit of a bashing. M hm. When when Donald Swanson was put in charge of the White Chappel murders on September, how did he then proceed with the investigation. What do we know about his involvement with the police efforts over the next month? What did

that look like? I think when when Warren wrote that memorandum appointing Swanson to the overall overall charge at Scotland Yard, he made he made a comment saying that I found a most important letter was sent to Division yesterday without he's seeing it. This is quite an air and should not happen again. And all the papers in Central Office on the subject of the murder must be kept in

his room. And immediately from that, and in fact back dating some of the reports, every every import and telegram on the investigation was submit to Swanson at Scotland Yard.

So you can imagine that he's spent a good few weeks reading and digesting all the reports that had been generated um before his appointment and right back to m Smith and Martha Tabram before the murder of Polly Nichols, all the reports that had come from H Division in Whitechapel and J Division of bethanal Green who had been

involved in the Marria Nichols investigation. And it was only really once he'd done this he could identify potential links and lines of investigation and a good indication of how much worked there was force once and on. That was was in the report which we speak of later, and I'm sure where he writes that by the mid October it's almost a thousand dockets existed in addition to the newspaper the numerous police and newspaper reports, and they all

have to be read and digested by Swanson. So I think it was probably to start with a massive and ongoing of a massive project for him two red and understand and assimilate everything that was going on um up to that time, because you know, there probably there probably was a good three or four weeks of reporting before he was appointed on the fifteen September. M HM. Can you describe what a day in the life would have

looked like for him? You know, is he going from his home to Scotland Yards, staying there all day and then going home again. And what would he do when he was there in the office with those mounds of paper. What what did a day in his life looked like when he takes on the investigation. Well, at this time Swanson and his family were living in South London. Um I would imagine knowing that route, it would have been probably a cab ride in each day and each evening.

But we were quite fortunate because in eighty nine there was a Department committee investigating the police work into the riper investigation and looking at the likes of expenses and pensions and that sort of thing, and Swanson was one of the officers that was called to give evidence. And he does actually describe his working day in between September. It's quite quite a heavy workload, he's he said, I had to be at the office at half past eight

in the morning. Then I had to read for all the papers that had come in, which took me into eleven PM and sometimes between one and two in the morning. Then I had to go to whitechap and see the officers, generally getting home between two and three am. So you know, you can you imagine that there's there's something like about fourteen hours minimum of just literally just reading the reports

and statements which are coming each day. And that's an enormou that's an enormous amount of work two, you know, for one officer to do. And then once he's done that, as he said, he had to go to Whitechapel and see those h Division officers. And after Cabinetos was killed and the city police came in liaising with those officers as well, they obviously make their they obviously make their plans and a grass reports for the next day when it looked as though it would be the same, all same,

all over again. So very intense period for those uh, those two or three months there for him. Can you describe the Dear Boss letter? What effect would that letter have on the investigation when it arrived in the press office and would Swanson have also been involved in sorting

letters like this as they came in. Yeah, well that the Dear Boss letter was received by the Central News Agency on the twenty September and it was almost certainly written by journalist if Tom Bullying of the Central News Agency itself or American Harry dam who who was a reporter for the Star Star Wars a new paper but probably the first tabloid newspaper, but it was enjoying an enormous early sales because it were it recognized that the

Ripper investigation, or all the murders themselves were um generating huge, huge sale as they were going out of their way to um offer sensationalist headlines and reporting style. So it's quite likely that the Dear Boss letter which first gave the name Jack the Ripper, was written by a journalist because obviously can imagine it would draw enormous readership, and in fact Robert Anderson would write in his memoirs, who's

tempted to disclose the identity of the journalist? And Swanson himself said who was known to all heads of c I D. But although they came to realize the letter as a hoax in the absence of any other clues of facts, when he was published in the national press to see if the handwriting would be recognized, with the inevitable result that hundreds of copycat letters were sent to them Met and also the City of Police, all of which had to be followed up and discounted, wasting valuable

police time and certainly Swanson. I'm sure these were that it doesn't categorically state it. I'm sure these letters were sent to Swanson, a Scotland jarred along with all the other documents, and so each day he'd have to go through these hoax letters, which I'm sure they must have known at the time. But looking at pertinent points, is there a name, use of address? Is there something that

we can send a comfortable too to investigate? I mean, that was probably one of the biggest mistakes that the police made in the investigation, was publishing that letter, because it just ended up wasting so many police hours and directing um work that could should have been done on a more direct basis. Mhm. You mentioned earlier that even with Anderson gone, the c i D Was able to put together a major police mobilization in White Chapel in October.

Would you describe that operation for us. This took place on the third of October, couple of days after the double event murder of Listoide and Cafronetto's um and I do wonder whether the plan had been mooted before that. Are they certainly to put it into place in the furt of October and Whitechapple was flooded with police in plain clothes and a house to house search was carried out.

And to give an idea of the scala that operation, the police issued some eighty tho leaflets that the households and lodging houses in the area appealing for information, and in addition to the residents of the area, more than two thousand people who were staying at the common lodging

houses were questioned. An assistant commissioner of Robert Andison would later write that during my absence abroad, the police made the house to house search for the killer, investigating the case of every man in the district whose circumstances were such they could go and come and get rid of his blood stains. In secret. Conclusion we came to was that he and his people were certain low class Polish duties.

For it is a remarkable fact that people of that class in the East End will not give up one of their number to gentile justice. So I think that the they must have had a bit of an understanding what they were looking for. Um. I think it stretches the imagination that they would send um but not only watch Apple police, but they drafted in officers from other divisions to assist this UM, and they questioned every every household, every resident, searched the rooms as as I said, they

questioned all the lodgers they might. I find it's a bit unusual that they would have just done that, not knowing what to expect. They probably had a little bit of an under an idea or a hope perhaps what they might uncover. And it seems a calling to Anderson UM that that that did that did come to pass. The eighties offered this police force that's doing all this work trying to come up with evidence UM. Little by

way of the forensic techniques the detective use today. You mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, what were some of the the cutting edge techniques that were that were new at the time that were considered in the course of collecting and analyzing evidence. White Chapel. I think this is this is probably one of the major problems that the police had. There were virtually no forensics. They couldn't tell the difference between human and animal blood let alone

a blood type. UM. Obviously, the the idea of of finger printing had been discovered, but it hadn't been a wasn't adopted to the police. For not another fifteen years after the White Chapel murders. So at this time there was there was virtually no um evidence that could be gleaned from clues um that sort of thing. I think the only clue, real clue that the police found in the whole investigation was the portion of Cafineto's apron which

was found beneath the writing the war writing in Ghaalson Street. Um, and that was found to match. That was a torn off piece of open that's found to match the pie she was wearing. And although that had blood stains and fegle matter on, there was there was no way that they could test those stains against anything else if that

they might have found UM elsewhere in their search. So the police were almost reliant on informers, identification parades, which I'm sure we talked about later on, and that sort of thing, or almost sort of catching catching someone red red handed. Um. It was. It was, you know, incredibly

tricky to find some money in this respect. Um. Swanson and his in his career up to this point had conducted a couple of not quite not strictly legal, um almost entrapment things where he had put put together a scenario where a suspect would be confronted with with either a witness or a victim of a crime um such as a robbery, and then they'd identify him that way. So there wasn't much they could do in terms of

forensic techniques. It was very sort of rude, rude, dementry, and they were reliant on can Pessians identifications that sort of thing. Mhm. What did the press and White Chapel locals think about this police mobilization that flooded their their neighborhoods, their streets, their homes with officers. I think it's quite interesting that, you know, you could imagine that some of the public, certainly the Jewish immigrant population, would have been

mistrusting of the police. You know, there was certainly locally there was a there was that sort of feeling typical British Empire feeling. But couldn't have been an Englishman, it must have been must have been an immigrant who's done

these horrible crimes. So you can understand that the Jewish population would have been perhaps wary of the police, not wanting to help, But in reality they were very supportive and incorporated with the police, such to the agree that that Charles Warren later wrote an open letter in The Times thanking the residents of Whitechapel for the good will shown to the officers who obviously had to carry a delicate, very delicate duty, but had to do the work um.

But that the public themselves were understanding of that they need to do this work and seemed to be a very very helpful in assisting the officers. And regarding the press, you know, as as I said with the Star a moment ago, you know, they were looking for an angle

that would selling newspaper um. And I think whenever they saw the police or the police appeared to be doing nothing, they'd be lambasted in the press and certain they didn't have a clue, and when something had come along that there might be a lead or some obvious activity by the police and they could report that because the readers, obviously we'd be looking for the catch off our latest of the of the police investigation and hunt for the killer.

So the press, the press were actually supportive of the house to house search as well, whether that was their person opinion of whether as I said, it was more a case to get get some juicy headlines and sell more copies. I think that's probably the case. You mentioned that if Swanson was known at all in the early years after the murders, it might have been from a few reports that he wrote. Would you describe the report

that's once in filed with the Home Office on October? Yeah, Well, shortly after the house to house search, the Home Office demanded a report or an update on the ongoing investigation, and Assistant Commissioner Robert Anderson was annoyed at the timing of it of this request. Um. You know, he felt he felt there was more important matters for Swanson and

the opice officers to be attending to. But nevertheless, the report that Swanson wrote, dated the nineteenth of October, was obviously a prize the Home Office at the time, but but for US researchers, it's invaluable because it gives the clearest picture of the police investigation into the murders at that point, and Swanson details each of the murders going right back to Elizabeth Stride, Martharet Tabram, Um, Mary and Nichols and Annie Chapman, and as well as the police

investigation at that point. Um and gave details of the house to house search we just heard about. Um. And Swanson writes the more than three hundred people were investigated as well as seventy six, which is and slaughter men and all the sailors who are on at that point on board ships in the Thames or or at the various East End docs MHM. And he also mentions that

a number of people were detained. Um something like a d I think, um, how many of those eighty who were detained were questioned thoroughly and how involved would Swanson have been in something like interrogations and those evidence gathering conversations or was that done by other officers. Well, I think all eighty of these people that were detained would have been questioned to some degree. You know, some were

easily dismissed, another's needed to be interrogated more closely. Um. In details of the suspects would have been held in the official suspect file a Scotland Yard, but that's been

missing since the early nineteen seventies. Before the the Met Police file on the Whitechapel murders was open to the researchers, So we have no idea who conducted the actual interviews in the main but Swanson was based at Scotland Yard and He wrote in that nineteenth of October report that the statements were taken at various stations around London, and the vast majority of suspects obviously were local Whitechapel men, so it's likely that interviews were conducted by actually Innity

detectives and apalne On circumbent there. It was only when James Sadler Thomas James Sadler was arrested for the murder of Francis Coles in doing over certain that Swanson himself conducted an interview with a suspect. So there's there's a chance he may have been involved with some of those eighty or more interrogations, but the likelihood is that they were conducted by local officers at the years pations where

they were held. UM. Another document that is significant in the White Chapel case is the one that Charles Warren gets published in Murray's magazine in November the police of the Metropolis. Um, what was the substance of that article, how was it received, what was the what was the fallout after that hit the public readership? Well, it's it's

interesting because Warren's article in itself was homeless enough. It's just just been about police administration, didn't didn't give any uh secrets away or anything that, um may be deemed to make it a a horrific publication and it was quite actually was well received by newspaper reviewers and commentators

at the time. Unsurprisingly, Warren ran foul of Home Secretary Henry Matthews yet again, who wrote to remind Warren that it'd broken a rule that prohibited civil servants from publicly discussing matters relating to their documents, and for Warren this

is the final straw. He wrote on the eighth of November to Warren to Matthews rather resigning his post, and said that if we had known there was a there was a a policy that he couldn't write, couldn't write anything about his his job, then he wouldn't have taken the position in the first place. Um. But I'm pretty sure it was just a case of matt and Matthews having another chance to need or Warren and incident niem warrant. Warren resigned on the eighth of November, which was coincidentally

Mary Kelly's last day. She was murdered in the early hours of the ninth of November, and when news of Warren's resignation broke on the day of the inquest into Mellie Kelly's murder. The two have been been linked, and to some they still are linked. Warren resigned um because of Kelly Kelly's murder um and in fact, just two weeks later Warren's replacement was announced. It was his old his old nemesis, James Monroe uh an interest in me.

They respected newspaper that Saint James Gazette commented on Matthew's use of the legislation, saying advantage was taken off. This is an incident to lead Sir Charles into what looks rather like a trap. So I think that's probably exactly what happened there. Mhm hm. At the end of October, so just before we get to that point, Robert Anderson had asked Dr Thomas Bond to examine the medical evidence

of the murders. To that point, um, why was doctor Bond of trusted observer and what did he conclude in the report that came out a few days after Warren's resignation.

Each met Police division had one doctor who was appointed not only to look after the welfare of their police officers in that division, but also assisted when medical opinion was needed in cases of murder or suspicious death, and the division was surgeon in White Chapels Dr George Baxter Phillips, who appeared at various inquests giving medical evidence, and Dr Thomas Bond was a divisional surgeon attached to a division of Scotland Chard and so in such he was not

directly involved in the White Shable cases, as he's been involved in so many howe profile cases since being appointed

in eighteen sixty seven. Um Anderson asked Bond on the October to examine the inquest reports on the four victims from Mary Anne Nichols to Kafreinetto's, but before he could do so, Mary Kelly was murdered and Bond was able to conduct a post mortem himself, adding it to the inquest reports on the earlier victims, and in his report, dated the tenth of November one concluded that all five had been killed by the same hand, the fruit cut from left to right in the first attack while the

women were lying down. The mutilations were carried out after death, and he believed a murderer did not have an anatomical knowledge, not even to the degree of the butcher. He said the knife was that commit carried out the mutilations, was at least six in years long, with a sharp point, such as a butcher's or surgeon's knife. Mhm. There's an interesting bit of background two to this because at the beginning of the year, at the beginning of there's some

friction between Warren and Bond. Can you talk about Charles Warren's effort to push Bond out of police service at the beginning of the year. I think as this is a very interesting little little backstory that perfectly illustrates when I was talking about right at the start about context. Because when I was doing the research for the book, I i I was looking for some information about divisional surgeons. Um, there's salaries, how long they've been appointed, that sort of thing.

So there's a far at the National Archives which is titled Divisional Searchers Divisional Surgeons. I thought that sounds perfect for what I'm looking for for for the book, and when I ready, it was this series of correspondence between Warren and Bond and the chief surgeon at Scotland Yard, Alexander mckella UM. And it's it's completely bizarre and and it just gives this complete background makes perfect sense for why um Anderson asked On to the character as report,

which didn't seem to make any sense before. But the story was that, as always with Warren, he was looking to make changes to the met to make it more efficient and as the majority of the detectives lived away from Scotland Yard in l Division, which was south of the Thames, where the new recruits were also based, as they did their training in early he moved their care to the divisional surgeons there, Dr George Farr. When On discovered this, he complained, but he obviously had had no

choice Um and he resigned as a medical officer. Attached the Detective Department and the Commissioner's office on the fourth of October, and took the opportunity to confirm it preferred to be engaged on cases, but medico legal expertise who was needed, and this is what prompted Anderson to give

Bond to prepare his report. Would you describe a previous case or two that were settled for the police by examinations and reports from Dr Band in the years before you mentioned he's attached to Scotland Yard and he's been such a helpful surgeon for them in the past. What were some of the cases that cemented his reputation in

the years before that? Well, the one which springs to mind for obvious reasons for for me is in eight one where he was called down to Brighton from Scotland jar which is probably the furthest he could get out

of his jurisdiction. He was called down to Brant to examine the body of a man found on the tracks in a railway arch and it was not initially clear with the cause of death was that he had been hit by a train or falling from a carriage, but bomb established at the man Mr Frederick Gold had been attacked on board the train and from from the carriage as it passed through the tunnel. Ironically, it was Donald

Swanson who arrested the killer person, Floyd Mapleton. So that was an example where um not not to say that the local doctors or the local medical officials in the Sussex Um jurisdiction where that where the body was found. Interestingly, in that case Um when Baxter was the carrener core at the time at the Sussex and he conducted the inquest into victim and eventual murderer. But that's not to say that those local doctors wouldn't have come to the

same conclusion. But but there was a chance that you know, they may they may have concluded that it was m misadventure or or accidental deaf hit by the train and that would have been the end of that and la Froid Mapleton would have completely avoided being arrested and executed as he did. But um Bond, Bond was the Scotland yard specially who found the cause of death, the various wounds on the body that could only been caused by

an attack um within the carriage. So yeah, that that was That was one case which it was quite interesting because as a Bond worked with Swanson and win Back Star. This was seven years before the Ripper investigation. So what was the significance when Bond writes that report you described earlier, the sharp knife that cuts on the throat um, pulling together all that medical evidence and and processing it for Robert Anderson, What was the significance of that report following

its release? Well, Bond suggested to the murderer was probably a middle aged man, quite an inoffensive looking and respectively dressed. He said he had extendic eccentric tendencies and probably lived among people who knew of his character and had suspicions, but who would probably be willing to communicate these suspicions to the police. And then the mutilations indicated that the killer was driven bisexual impulse. And this this report is generally accepted as the first attempt at a profile of

a serial killer. But it's interesting that if he hadn't been for Charles Warren's insistence earlier the year that wand relinquished his workload uh As Scotlan Yard, he might not have been asked to rewrite that report in the first place.

So it's it's an interesting report in an important report in terms of it gave the police, perhaps for the first time, an idea of the sword of man they should be looking for, rather than the simple conclusion that yet it was someone with a knife who had um some medical knowledge, which when Dr Bagster Phillips was given his inquest testimony in the earlier cases didn't give. He gave no further clues as to the type of man

the killer was or any idea of his personality. So it was really important for in terms of not only in terms of criminal history, but also in terms of the investigation, that the police finally had an idea of the man they were looking for. And I think when we get further down in the discussion, we'll be talking about Anderson's suspects and description of what happened to him, we can see that that probably came from this, This description by bonders to the sort of man at the

killer was mm hmm. Do you think it was more helpful to have Baxter Phillips's reticence or to have bonds speculative conclusions? Um? Do you mean do you mean for for us as researchers or for the police at the time. Well, I'm thinking more of the police and the time. Uh, you know, is it better to have a cleans later to have, you know, something specular and like what Bond

puts forward. I think that that this at this point, it's probably a case of how the investigation had proceeded, because if if Bond had for instances been looking at the reports, if he'd have been the one which had conducted the post mortem and for the first inquest and given this information, Um, I don't know if the police would have accepted it as readily as they did later on backs to Phillips, certainly we've been reticent, as you say, we've describing the injuries at the at the inquest that

that certainly wasn't the case. You know, he gave that information freely to the to the police, and he was trying to keep it out of the out of the newspapers, really. But I don't know whether in those early days if bags to Phillips would have even formed an opinion as to the type of killer. I don't know whether he

had that sort of approach that that bonded um. I think initially the police were sort of quite happy with what bags To Phillips had had told them, and this, you know, this is this, this is the sort of this is the sort of mutilations that have taken place or been inflicted. The police probably fought in those early days that they were going to quiet quite easily catch the killer. And it's interesting that the terminology of of that Warren gave in that memo pointing Swanson, he's referring

to the murder of any Chapman. And he doesn't say I'm appointing Swanson for the duration of these series of murders. He points Swanson for that one particular murder, and to take obviously in cittu the previous cases, and Swanson really carried on in that position as the the murders of Lis Stride and Katharinetto's and Mary Kelly happened, and subsequently later years Alice McKenzie, Francis Coles. Swanson stayed in that position. But I don't believe that Warren or any of the

other police expected there may be more. Um they probably, you know, we we we can solve this with the tools that we have medical information from backs to Phillips, but certainly by the end of October and they had no further information apart from what they may have uncovered at the house to house at the start of the month. I think they were they were very grateful for Bond

given them this sort of information. Of course, it may have turned out to be completely away of them, way off the mark, and not for helpful at all, but I think they were looking for help, any helpful guidance they could have received at that point. So let's step a little further forward in time, considering other people who attempted to put together the massive evidence and come to some kind of official conclusion about it. Um, let's go

to melvill Micknaton. Who was Melvilla mcnatin and what role did he have in the investigation or looking at the looking at the results of the investigation. Well, mc noordan was was a friend of Names Monroe, who ran his family's tea plantation in India, and they had met when

Monroe was a district judge there. He first attempted to get McNaughton into the met when Superintendent Frederick Williamson was ill, but Warren blocked blocked that move and this was the reason why Monroe resigned as assistant Commissioner Robert Anderson put in put in his place. Things changed, of course, when Warren resigned at the end of Monroe became commissioner. Mcnorton was appointed Assistant Chief Constable support in Williamson in June

and replaced him in December ninety when Williamson died. So they had the three friends together there, Anderson, Monroe and mc norton. Um But although he wasn't around at the time of the reper investigation of McNaughton, was quite actively involved in inquiries into subsequent murders in White Chapel such as Alice McKenzie and Francis Coles. UM and in his auto biography, which is completely exaggerated, he's rolling everything to be honest, UM, but he puts himself in the center

of things quite quite heavily there. But he he I think it seems to be that he was frustrated on the outside UM in eight wanting to be part of the investigation. But UM certainly certainly took to and big involvemently things after his appointment. But he's probably better known in the case for his eight nine four memorandum in which he names the free suspects M. Yeah. And it's since for for investigators and historians and and those of

us who are looking back at the case. His member and his memorandum has at times been an influential document for understanding uh, as you say, the police perspective, UM, how was it received when it was first written, and how much significance did it have, especially before those police files were open in the seventies. Um mcnorton wrote his memorandum as a result of some newspaper we've sporting an exclusive. A man named Thomas cut Bush was Jack the ripper

that found him in a lunatic asylum UM. And the memorandum actually was never published, but it was it was probably prepared for internal use should there have been inquiries a result of the Sun's claims. So there's no record of the memorandum until it was discovered by author Robin O'Dell in the mid nineties sixties, misfiled in a in a box at the Public Record Office. So that that's the official version, UM. But there's so that's dated February.

But there's there's a version which we call the Aberconway version. It seems to be a draft written by mcnorton Morley is preparing this official report, and that that was retained in the family, the McNaughton family, and made its way down to his daughter Christo Bell aber Conway, and I

think it was a late eighteen nineteen fifties. Rather the British television presenter and Ripper or for Daniel Farr soon was doing some research for television program and his friends said, well, would you like to meet my my mother who has um the document written by her father, Melvin mc norton, which names free free of the chapter Ripper suspects. You can you mention Daniel Fasson was delighted to have the opportunity to read this, and this is where three names

first came along. But um, Lady Abbert Conway gave fast and permission to mention the discovery of this abercamay versions along the condition that he didn't reveal any of the names because she felt that there may still be relatives or descendants of those three men that was still alive. And and maybe you know, take take offense, but it turned up the three names were drew It, who fastened

put forward as the number one suspect um Um. Yeah, because Minski, which is interesting because that obviously parts the name that Swanson Kate came up with. And Michael Ostrog who subsequent researchers have found that was a petty criminal, not violent at all, although McNaughton described him as such in the memorandum and we're sort of managed to discount him. Um. But what I find interesting about the mc norton report is that he names the same five victims as the

genuine Ripper Ripper victims as Thomas bonded his report. Um. And this is where we get the so called canonical five victims from Marianne Nichols through to Mary Kelly and the victims before these five and after as a genuine regarded as probably not by the ripper. But that's certainly changed in certainly in the case of Martha Tabram. But what's interesting about that is that I discovered during my

research for the book that Bonds report was missing. When UM, a Swiss doctor wrote to the met asking for a report, they couldn't be found at this time. And this sort of coincides within the within two months of when McNaughton writer's report. So I just have a what, I just have a feeling that perhaps mcnaton lifted that file from the report um, from the official files to write his report and then put it back and put it back at a later date. UM. So yes, So that really

was was in. That was probably the first document that names a suspect before the official Suspects file was accessed in the early nineteen seventies. Mhm M. Would you describe for us the arc of Donald Swanson's career in the years after. In earlier that year, Swanson had been appointing Chief Inspector on a temporary basis, and that's almost a probationary peer. It but it meant he was one of

the top six detectives at Scotland Yard. He was made Chief Inspector permanent later at the beginning of eighteen nine. And you've promoted a superintendent of the c i D at Scotland Yard affect There's the highest position he could he could attain um and it's effectively the top detective

in the country. His reporting directly to the Assistant Commissioner Anderson and then his replacement, Edward Henry, who was the man that poke fingerprinting into the met Swanson retired fifty five and I do think that if the rules have been different at that time, he might have achieved further

promotions to Assistant Commissioner and possibly commissioner itself. Mhm m. Thinking about another major case that Swinson was involved in, would you describe the arrest and trial of Leander Jamieson and the role that Donald Swason played in those proceedings. The Jameson Raid, as it was known, was was very high profile diplomatic issue. Swanson was was very proud of his he's role in that bringing Jameson and the raiders

to justice. I've described that in a moment that I know that Donald's grandson Jim always made special point that this was an international diplomatic situation that his grandfather had been involved in UM bringing bringing to a conclusion, But basically it was. It was later part of his career, but it was a good example of cooperation between multiple police forces and overseas extradition. Basically in Diamond Magnet and

British nationalists Acessil. Rhodes, who had been basically annexing large areas of South Africa UM had his eye on on the South African Republic, which is a large independent country UM formerly known as a Transfile and it was governed by the President Paul Krueger. Large quantities of gold have been discovered in which thousands, which caused thousands of many British immigrants called Outlanders, who were tolerated by Kruger thanks to the taxes they had to pay on any goal

that they uncovered. But Rhodes was envious and wanted this land, and he devised the plan whereby arms and money would be provided to the outlanders in order to provoke an armed uprising by these settlers, with the result of the overthrowing of the South African Republic government and an armed force of around seven hundred men under control of Dr Leander Jameson was to be placed on the Transfile border,

ready to assist and support this insurrection. But things went badly wrong because Jameson badly ignored ignored orders to retreat and the result was that more than four hundred of

his men were captured. President Kruger arranged for the prisoners to be transported to Britain and the rank and file men were packed onto the steamer called the Harlett Castle and then we met at Madeira by Scotland Odds Inspector Frank Frost, who was the officer that Swanson acted as a mentor too, in the same way that Williamson had

done to him. Frank Frost would eventually become superintendent. Actually after Swanson um Frost, Frost met the ship at Madeira and took the details and more than two hundred men before the boat resumed its voyage to Plymouth. And waiting for them there was Chief Inspector Swanson who took a roll call of all the men and bordered the train with Frost and the troops. And when they arrived at London they were met by officers of the local elect

f Division new Mont to Donward journey. Jameson himself and the fellow officers arrived in London three days later, and they were met there by Swanson who took them into his custody, and they knocked at Waterloo Pierre and then taken to Bow Street Magistrates Court, where they brought up by Swanson and charged with engaging an unlawful military expedition

against her first South African Republic. The thirteen prisoners were eventually tried a month later and found guilty, Jameson receiving the month's imprisonment and the others short slightly shorter sentences. The ramifications of the failed road were potentially disastrous because tensions between the British and the Dutch, who owned the transfile similar for several years, culminated in the Second Boer War, and this animosity was exploited by Carls of Vilholmers second,

who wrote to the President Krueger offering support. When the contents of this telegram was reported in British newspapers, the action was one of outrage in relations between Germany and Britain deteriorated, although Vilhelmer's second later wrote to his grandmother Queen Victoria, denying that his words were meant to stir real feeling against the country. The incident was a big enough friction between the two countries, which culminated in the

First World War. So you mentioned earlier that we also have the Swanson marginalia to discuss. Um. Can you describe what this was and how it fits in with a pattern of Donald Swanson, How Donald Swantson read material and and expressed his starts, and then maybe how that marginalia itself became public. Donald Swanson died in four and all the papers and documents and possessions passed to his widow Julia.

It's quite interesting that it became clear when I was looking through the um so I having documentation there wasn't an official bequest in a will or anything of any named items. The possessions literally just passed to the next of Ken and Julia. Julia in turn passed away UM and the couple's daughters Ada and Alice inherited the possessions and took them out of London to a cottage where

they lived together for the next forty years. Um In this um pile of documents was a small library of crime books that Donald had had collected UM and it was it was this this this part of books that Donald's grandson, Jim Swanson, who was the nephew of the Voda analysts, UM, he basically inherited those books when Alice died in so this this is more than fifty years after Donald died. UM Jim cleared out of the house for it to be sold and moved into his own home.

And when he was looking through the books, because I had an interest in in his grandfather's criminal career or police career, I should say from the found a number of annotations in in several books. Actually, people tend to think that the Swantson Marginalia was the only incidents of Donald Swantson write any thought, his thoughts or corrections. And some people have said, well, that's a bit strange. Why would you specifically only comment on that particular case. But

it's not, it's not. It's not the case. There were several um examples of we'll call Swanson marginalia UM. But it was in M. Robert Anderson's autobiography The Light Aside of My Official Life, in which he talks about Jack the Ripper, Polish juice suspect Um that has some quite revealing annotations, and because Jim was so proud of his grandfather's work. He was He was twelve when Donald died, so he knew him quite well and and always said that right up till he's death at the age of

seventy six, Donald retained your these mental faculties. He's mind was a shop as a rapier. The one thing he did have was was a hand tremor um, which you know obviously he's like a thing which happens to quite a lot of people as they getting into this into their older age. But Jim decided he wanted to try and get some recognition for his grandfather's career, and a few months after discovering the margin earlier, he wrote to the Sunday newspaper The News of the World, offering the

information in the margin alia. And then his papers sent their chief crime reporter, Charles Sandel, to interview Jim m and we we did find um research and then keep Skinner found a draft of this of this unused article, as it turned out by Sandel, in the files of

the Crime Museum at Scotland Yard. So although there was a there was an article written, it didn't appear, and again we don't we don't really know why, but we we can surmise that it was a time where the Yorkshire Ripper trial was happening, so that that obviously ran in in the British press quite heavily. It was leading to the marriage of Prince Charles and Lady Diana, that

took up a lot of column inches. So looking at the unused report story by Sandel, it just appears he couldn't find enough on the suspect to make it work into a story. So it wasn't really until the centenary of the Ripper murders were approaching. But in October night eight seven, Jim contacted a different news both of their Daily Telegraph and the story was finally published and it revealed the sense of the marginalia two Ripper researchers and

the world more widely. Would you describe the marginali and a little more detail and how it influenced thinking about the reper murder sense since the centenary? What was the process for determining maybe that the marginalia was was genuine and how seriously it should be taken? Um I can ask that in one sentence, but I'm going to give

you the background into the marginalias. It consists of, as I said, a number of penncilanizations that Donald has written alongside the printed word in Anderson's book, and specifically on on a couple of pages where Anderson writes about Um Jack the Ripper, the Whitechappel murders, and Um the prime suspect we called him, Anderson writes, I'll merely add here that the only person who ever had a good good view of the murderer unhesitatingly identified the subspec at the

instant he was confronted with him that refused to give evidence against him, and Swanson's written underneath in a purple pencil. And the reason I'm turning to the color of the pencil is important because it's helpful in the later testing of the marginalia. Swanson wrote because the suspect was also a Jew, and also because his evidence would convict the suspect and witness would be the means of the murder of being hanged, which he did not wish to be

left on his mind. D. S. S. And then some later day, using a different gray pencil, Swanson's underlined Anderson's comment identified the suspect. He was confronted with him and his own comment also a jew and added in the left hand margin. And after this identification, which suspect knew, no other murder of this kind took place in London. And elaborating on the end paper UM Swanson, Swanson wrote,

continue from page hundred thirty eight. After the subspect had been identified at the Seaside home where had been sent by us with difficulty in order to subject subject him to identification he knew was identified on the suspect's returned to his brother's house in Whitechapel. He was watched by police City c I D by day and night. In a very short time, the suspect with his hands tied beyond his back. He was sent to Stephney Workhouse and

then to Colney Hatch and he died shortly afterwards. Because Minsky was the suspect d s S. So I'm mentioning that he's initialed these points because again that was an important aspect in UM, proving that the genuineness of the the marginalia. But since these these comments were first made public in the Telegraph, UM researchers have been trying to get to the bottom of Swampson's claims, which is where was the seaside home, who was the witness in the identification,

and of course who was kause Minski. But because the definity answers to these questions have yet to be found UM, some people have claimed that the Marginalia might not be genuine, and in two thousand and six, when the Swanson family loaned the book to Scotland Yard's Crime Museum, it was sent to the METS Forensic Science Service for examination and using a leegend known to be written by Swanson put

in black ink rather than pencil. Dr Christopher Davies of the Forensicy Department concluded there strong evidence that the Marginalia had been written by Donald Swanson, stating that he might be able to reevaluate his opinion if he were to compare against more contemporary writings by Swanson in pencil. So when when I began my research is back in two

thousands and twelve and access to the family archive. I discovered letters written by Swanson into the last years of his life UM and his personal address book, and they all displayed evidence of the shaking hand commented on by Dr Davies, and Swanson actually writes he's got a hand tremor so he can't continue writing one particular letter to

it to her grandson. UM I managed to contact Dr Davis and asked if you'd be willing to take another look at the MARGINALI lookates his new samples, and I was very pleased that he agreed to do so, and as a result, the conclusion was upgraded to very strong evidence the MARGINALI had been written by Swanson. Um And off the record, Dr Davies said, this is the closest we'd ever get in official report to an absolute certainty. But as far as he was concerned that the Marginalia

was written by Swanson. And then when it comes to the substance of those comments themselves, both well, both by Anderson and the pages of the book and Swanson on the margins um they're discussing a suspect, and and Swanson names him because Minsky and I suppose the question is detectives. You know, Anderson and Swanson sharing a suspect, does it require that we follow their conclusions? Do we go do we in our own minds go from? Because mins this

the suspect of Chrisminsky the murderer. How much weight do you personally give to Swanson and and Anderson's identification of a suspect. I think it's um, it's it's very difficult to evaluate um Swanson Andson based on what he's what he's probably the the more recent acceptance of the marginalia because the only Kasminski that fight that has been found in all this time that seems to fit Swanson's comments, but not all of them. He's Aaron Kasminski found by

Martin Fido. Um, we're back in actually, but he Aaron Kasminsky didn't die soon after being in cost writed in Colony Hatcher, Swanson writes, and he wasn't arrested. Anderson seems to be quite clear that the suspect was identified soon after the murder of Mary Kelly. Um Swanson doesn't correct Anderson's comment that Mary Kelly was the last White Chapel lost true Whitechappel murder. So people today said, I think, well,

kause Minski definitely was Aaron Kosminski. But how can we fit a square shaped Aaron Cosmnski into a triangle shaped Swanson marginalia. It doesn't work. So Swanson and Anderson, we weren't that they weren't that strong in their convictions, that because Minsky was the killer, maybe it's just another suspect um. So he tends to be dismissed based on that. But Anderson himself seems very confident that his Polish Jew was

the murderer, although he doesn't name because Minsky. He says, I'm almost tempted to disclose your identity of the murderer. So as far as he was concerned them, the Polish Jew who was identified by the witness who refused to give evidence was Jack the ripper. Swanson is more restrained and refers to him as the suspect in the marginalia. And yet he does say that the witness refused to testify because he didn't want his evidence to be the

cause of the murderer being hanged. So you know, there's a case that it could be claimed that the ultra professional policeman Swanson was using the correct terminology of the policeman who is a suspect until charge and convicted when he become a murderer. That's one liner thinking, But I think we need to consider Swanson's habit of correcting printed statements. In other examples of marginalia because you know, these notes

were written for his own personal use. They were never intended to be what are seen by the public or for certainly not for publication. And I feel if he disagreed with Anderson um any of Anderson's written comments he would have made, he'd have made a comment, as he does with with other suggestions in other books. He doesn't challenge Anderson's claim that the last trooper of the victim

was Kelly. He doesn't or no. That the killer was a Polish Jew was a definitely ascertained fact, and it just leads me to believe that Swanson probably also believed because Minsky to beach at the ripper rather than just another suspect. After all, he was the one officer who saw every scrap of evidence and report, and you have to assume that he knew more than anybody m MHM.

In in the final chapter of your book, Swanson, you write the Donald Swanson epitomized the evolving Victorian detective, representing that era in the force's history. Would you offer a few a few comments along those lines for our listeners. How was it that Swanson was really the epitome of

a detective in that time. As I mentioned at the beginning of the conversation, the thirty five year period in which Swanson served was nearly of great advances in in the methods of detection and forensics, and his story from the humble Bobby on the beat to return a superintendent of the c i d A Scotland Yard, it neatly mirrors the evolution of policing from a time when they were using initially the most rudimentary equipment such as rattles and Cutlassy is not even having whistles at that point

to the earlier twentieth century when he retired and the forced adopted fingerprint evidence and forensic detection was changed forever. M you've mentioned that your next project is going to be on the coroner who was so significant in the inquests and investigating this case throughout, Win Baxter. UM. Would you have a few minutes to talk with us about Win Baxter, who he was, and what you're learning about

him as you research him more. Well, I think, as you said Carla at the beginning of the conversation, UM, you'd found my UM article. It was probably just magazine on back, so that was written back in two thousand and five. I think, which is quite scary to think about that that really was a sort of precursor perhaps to my research model on the Swanson book, because now, again you know, people before that article appeared, perhaps all

Baxter has just always a fussy coroner. He's a busy body who has like to get his name in the papers and and things like that. And I thought, well, again, there's got to be more in this guy's background. Gives some context to the way he conducted the inquest. What did he do in his professional life because the coroner's obviously they although they received money for each inquest they

conducted that, that wasn't their full time job. They were they were doctors, or they were um solicitors back barris as that sort of thing um. And Baxter was was a solicitor first in Lewis Down near Brighton in Sussex, where he first became a coroner. I think he was probably in the early in his early twenties, so he

was quite young when he took on that position. And as a quite a nice story that I dug out for the for the book on Swanson, where the former coroner had had served at the Sussex for a number of years. But he was forced to give up the role in disgrace because he had been embezzling funds from from some some widow, some rich widow who being trusted him with several thousand pounds. And again that that that's a nice story which gives a little bit of understanding

how Baxter came to the job. But um, when I was researching for that two thousands of five articles, Uh, there's there's enormous amount of information locally and Lewis about the Backster family. Heat One of his uncles, George Backster, was very famous artist, color color print maker, one probably one of the first artists who had color prints made of his work. His father Wind Backs as far grandfather John was very famous in Sussex and around the whole area.

They had the first um mobile library lending out books. They became a publish in the area and in facts, Baxter's down in Lewis is still one of the largest employers in the area. They owned several of the until recent years of the Sussex newspaper. So there's there's quite

a lot. There's quite a lot in wind Baxter's background that you know, you think, well, he obviously understood from an early age with his grand fathers owning of the newspapers and the printing press and that sort of thing that let's let's rose the profile of the family name. He probably did like getting his name in the in the press. But UM, recognizing he had a few coroners positions in London after he had moved to the city in his in hislicitor's practice, Um, he was a deputy

coroner of the City of London. Um coronership and another I think the South Middlesex may have got that wrong, the South Middlesex jurisdiction. But the going right back to an early question about what was the East End like and being poor and the poverty line and lots of disease and things. There obviously were lots of inquests needed

in that area. So that was for a coroner that coronership area jurisdiction of the East Middlesex, which covered White chap in the East End, was was you know, um, something that they all aspired to because there were so many inquests into natural deaths, um violent deaths that there was quite a lot of money to be made looking

at it from from a purely economic view. UM. So back to pulled out all the all the stops really when he went when he went up for the candidacy um in ad and six when it when it came along, he put lots of adverts in the newspaper, sort of trying to get attracting the votes and that sort of thing. Um. Interestingly, when when the first vote was cast it seemed he had been beaten into second place by Roderick McDonald, who

who later conducted the inquest into Mary Kelly's death. But backstas Um supporters who were there at the count made such a noise and cause such a problem that the count couldn't be conducted, so they had to redo the vote load of date and of course backs to one quite consider read by on that occasion. So he's a very interesting character um. And in terms of the Ripper Inquest that he presided over, I don't think that he was fussy or or overstated. I think he or flashy,

as he's been described in some books. I think he was more of a conscientious um. He wouldn't officer, he wouldn't take any nonsense. He didn't let a witness off lightly if they didn't give the evidence they had been called to give. So I think he was just looking to get the biggert the most full story, you know,

as as each case deserved really um. And he stayed in in that position until he actually died in he had a he had an attack in the in the after an inquest in he'd been in position for about twenty four years and conducted over ten inquests, it was estimated at that time. And this goes right from before the Ripper time up to First World War spies, the elephant man Joseph Merrick died in Whitechapel right up through two Hounds each murders. Churchill was palty give evidence on

the inquest. So there's an enormous scope not just in Baxter's personal life, but the context and the content of the inquest. It wass aided over again a bit like Swanson with the UH the evolution of the met. I think there's a big slice of history covered by wind backs to be in the coroner for these Middle Sex, which I think we'll make for a fascinating story anyway, Well we will. I'm eager for that book. I'm looking forward to to reading that. Um. Well, Adam, thank you

again so much for joining used and and sharing your work. Uh, this is brilliant, and I hope we'll send many listeners to your book and your future book. I'm really excited for that. I'm glad you were able to share with us that you're working on that project. Baxter is such an interesting figure and to really have a detailed exploration of his life would be would be brilliant, So I totally agree and probably never get the chance to get

around to it. But beyond that, I was also thinking about a biography of Dr Bond would be an interesting one week, and with such other such a long career, but there's always there's never enough time to do all this sort of research and writing. That's it for this week's episode of Unobscured. Stick around after this short sponsor break for a preview of what's in store for next week.

One of his great answers in the book is one day lining up to place her bet and behind her incomes a top with a top hat, a rich guy for some reasons in the area, and stands behind her to place his bet. And some of the local lads who are in there think this is an opportune to here for a bit of mischief, so they reached around said tough and they pinch aunt is bossom. Now she does not ask any questions at this point, by the way, she just wheels round leading with her fist and knocks

the bloke out with one punch. So one good right hook and this port off top half doubtless flying across the blades floor is spark out on the floor, So that tells you how violent. You know, how dangerous life was for women. They had to be prepared to come out fighting and no questions asked. Unobscured was created by me Aaron Manky and produced by Matt Frederick, Alex Williams,

and Josh Thane in partnership with I Heart Radio. Research and writing for this season is all the work of my right hand man Carl Nellis and the brilliant Chad Lawson composed the brand new soundtrack. Learn more about our contributing historians, source material and links to our other shows over at History on a skewed dot com, and until next time, thanks for listening. Unobscured is a production of

I Heart Radio and Aaron Menkey. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit I heart Radio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows, h