BONUS: Update + Interview With Dr. J. Allen Hynek

Hey guys, it's Chris here. I wanted to jump on real quick, and give you an update as to what's going on with the podcast. And why there isn't a story episode today. As of right now, my wife and I are traveling in our camper van across the country, visiting, friends, and family. And to be completely honest, this week has been super busy, I haven't had a moment. It's time to really focus on the story episode and that is definitely in the works, but I didn't want to leave you guys

hanging in today's episode. We're going to be listening to an interview with dr. J Allen hynek. Now if you recall from episode 1 Grandma's, UFO encounter dr. J Allen hynek was the lead investigator hired by the government to Decayed, the strange UFO encounters that were happening in Michigan during 1966. If you haven't listened to that episode, I highly recommend going back and listening to that first.

Now this interview was conducted in 1977, so Ten Years After Grandma's. UFO encounter, dr. Hynek has changed his opinion over the years, and has really made it. His life's mission to figure out. Out what on Earth. These UFO sightings are in the interview conducted by JP McCarthy. You get to really hear the hard-hitting questions and dr. Hynek I think handles it. Very scientifically and practically but it's also extremely fascinating. How he's changed his viewpoint

on what these things are. People also call in with their experiences, he answers their questions and this may seem I did, but I think it's very applicable to what we're experiencing today with all of the news and the UFO sightings that are happening around the world. So, without further Ado, here's the interview with dr.

J Allen, hynek, there has been new interest, rekindled, because of the incredible success of a movie called Close Encounters of the Third Kind for which dr. Hynek was a technical consultant made a cameo appearances. A matter of fact, and we thought It might be interesting to peruse with him some of the reports over the last 30 years in the information that he has sifted through and see what he really thinks about it.

All some of his credentials. Well, he four years headed up the Air Force's investigations into unidentified flying object. Seems self was a debunker for a very long time.

You remember the marsh, guess explanation for the sightings in Washtenaw County and in Hillsdale, 10 years ago, that was dr. Hynix idea, he Till very recently was professor of the astronomy department at Northwestern University's head of the center for UFO studies in Chicago and he has devoted a good portion of his life into studying the phenomenon known as UFOs dr. Hynek. On a very snowy, blowy morning on this Friday in Detroit were pleased that you were here.

Welcome. Well, I'm glad to be here. I wanted to know the correct tooth minor points wonders. I did not head up. The are forcing. I was a consultant to them and I'm still L. Am professor of astronomy at Northwestern. I I did not have one more year to go there before calendar catches, and I rich something. Just this morning. I had been advertising all week long, I thought I'd read something, just this morning that said, that you had resigned

that I'm gonna bore. I resigned my chairmanship are chairman for 15 years. Yes. Okay. Well you were still with Northwest. Yes. Still with Northwestern, right? He did not unidentified flying objects. Have been popular since 1947 1948. When the the Bevy of them were cited before that were there any reports in history? As far as you're concerned of UFOs.

Oh yes. There are many reports but still, they're so hard to track down and even now if any reporters more than they say you're too old, it's hard to track down but we course clear back to Biblical times the Z Qs wheel would have been a good example and Saul of Tarsus and the road to Damascus. And the old all through history, there have been reports and stories of strange sights in the sky and on the ground. But I have my hands.

So full, with the present ones, I mean, the current ones that it's hardly any point to worry about the others. How do you go about investigating a UFO report? A, you get a report of a sighting. The you if it sounds reasonable to you dear? Then contact the people and do an in-depth interview with them.

Oh not only the people, but a lot of peripheral material, we have an outgoing W line and we have a full-time paid investigator and as calls come In and we get through our police hotline, we get several calls a day. Certainly, he then contacts not only the original Witnesses, but the police departments in that area. The FAA, the weather bureau NORAD radar installations. In other words, he does everything he can to break it down into a normal thing. We say, who we talking about?

I'm talking about are paid investigator, mr. Allen, Henry. Who is the chap? Who does a very fine job in tracking down? And then of course, we have a quorum Vestigators around the country who so we can enlist on a voluntary volunteer basis. There's some that are just so ridiculous and seemed so unlikely to be anything worthwhile she just simply on the after the initial evidence you don't bother investigating

him any further. Well it's the ones that are unlikely, the strange ones are the ones we really find. We have to investigate the ones that we don't have to investigate are so typical. For instance, we will get stories of That are generated by these advertising planes. You know the planes that have these rotating Marquee lights from a distance. Those look like a rotating disk but we we can spot them and mr. Henry has the phone numbers is, I'm 70 airplane, advertising companies.

And all we do is call those places and ask them. Did you have a plane at that point at that time? I would we do in this the publication you have on your elbow there, the international UFO reporter each month we publish. If you take a look at the back page each Each month. We publish a map of the United States and which we plot all the cases that have come to our attention. Those that we can solve. We put in as we plot as dots. Those are, we can't solve we

plot as stars. Of course, it's the stars were interested in, but you can see also that the dots far outnumber the Stars. The people simply are not aware of the number of purely normal things that a person can see, in the sky. Now, what's an ifo? The dots are ifos. Those are identified flying objects, can you've got a looking in the It looks as though there were three or four identified flying objects

spotted in the Detroit area. Or I'm sure each month now this I think maybe I don't want to mention this several times may be a good starter right now. You started out with the introductory music from Close Encounters which Title by the way was my title. I call this the 18 million dollar movie with a thousand dollar title because that's all I got for the title. Let's go. Describe this to me on the phone month ago or so, well, actually three weeks ago but let's let's do it again.

Let's let's go back to the beginning, what does a close encounter mean, okay? Close encounter is citing that is closed and buy clothes. I mean, within a few hundred feet, less than 500 feet. Generally, other words there should be little chance of misidentifying it with a Venusaur twinkling star. I mean, it's close by Okay. And they I divided them purposely into three kinds Close, Encounters of the first kind, the second kind of Third Kind. The first kind is closed, but

nothing really happens. Outside of the fact that people get frightened and it's quite an experience for them and Close. Encounters of the second kind. Are those in which some sort of physical residue, not a part of the UFO. We still don't have a front bumper from a few F or anything like that but we do have hundreds of cases.

And I mean words of cases in which at the precise spot where the UFO was seen, there is a burnt ring or holes in the ground that obviously, or obviously don't seem to be coming from anything else. Broken tree, branches animals affected animals affected, how so. Well, they'll get tremendously panicky cattle. Stampede for instance. A horses were raised a fuss in the barn and we've had cases of Workhorse dogs.

Early barking. That's, that's not terribly exciting, but we've had cases of of the bull. For instance, there was tethered by to an iron Rod through its nose and got so frightened about the iron rod in half. So that I'd say, is an animal effect, or an effect on the animal. And we had that the center for UFO studies. We have now published a catalog of some 800 of 1,100 now of such cases. Okay, this UFO, reporter, this monthly That you release for a dollar will get to in just a few minutes.

I want to talk to you though, about the much, celebrated release of information by the Air Force for years. The Air Force, kept the lid, on all this UFO information in People, magazine and August 1976, and a big article about you. You said the Air Force will open its UFO files and it will make juicy reading. Well, that's a year and a half ago.

Nothing started. He has come up the President, Carter indicated, or at least US News and World Report magazine indicated that President. Carter this year would make some sort of announcement about UFOs. Nothing. There's always been an awful lot of smoke but no fire, what is it? Well, the only only solid thing that's come out of that. CU President Carter asked NASA to undertake a study of UFOs and they very politely refused, and they had good reasons, but I would like to talk about those

later. The Air Force did the National Archives did release the files of Project Blue Book on which I was Consulting for a good many years. And that is Incorporated in my new book, The, which is very modestly called the hynek UFO report. What I do there is I think that does many of those do my juicy reading. Juicy, not in the usual newsstand sense, but you see in the sense that it shows how they are formed, Horse really bungled, many of the cases and there. Did they very real job of

keeping cases from the public? They why? Why would they do that? Largely because they had were operating under a very strong recommendation of this from the CIA which convened a panel of special town in 1953 called the Robertson panel and which I was an associate member. Incidentally, the CIA was not frightened of UFOs. They were frightened of UFO reports.

They were afraid that the public might panic, and at that time, particularly, they were terribly concerned about subversive elements in the country and they thought that these, these subversive elements, a communist might use the whole UFO phenomenon, UFO clubs and UFO organizations as fronts for subversive activities. And so they strongly recommend that the Air Force to everything. You can could to debunk the situation, you were one of the major. I was one of the major

debunkers. I mean, because I thought that the whole thing Was a lot of junk if you change your mind. Yes, I agree. Absolutely significant the otherwise I wouldn't be heading up the center for UFO studies. Do you believe that many of these UFO reports are? Not only real, but that are extraterrestrial. E directed. There are three basic theories of the UFO today. Won the first, of course, is that. It is complete nonsense.

Second is that they are extraterrestrial vehicles and the third is that they really represent something from another dimension of parallel reality. There may be four or five others that I don't know about. Oh, there are some fans for one's very fanciful. Indeed, all of these are fanciful, except the first one I think is fanciful to the. There's some people who speak of our future coming back to look at us and things. That would certainly be sure.

Sheer science fiction but it sounds like science fiction. Did you can you even buy the concept of that our future coming back? Beloved us? I can't time machine stuff. No, no I can't. Who are they for what's the parallel reality? Well, that's an intriguing concept and it shouldn't bother us so much because good Heavens. I don't know which particular religion. You happen to be. But all of our major religions and great philosophers and

Prophets of the past. Of all told us that the physical world is not the whole thing that there are other planes of existence, where do angels exist, rinse, the Bible's full of angels, for instance. Well, that would be an example of a parallel reality or another more practical example is right now, even though we're in a radio Studio, there are passing through this room, television pictures. Mmm. But we can't see, but it's it represents a sort of a parallel reality.

Okay? Another dimension, put it that way. There's nothing, nothing too fanciful about that. I mean. Well, there's this there's nothing fanciful about it from the sense that it's been discussed for a long time, but when you stop and think about it, it doesn't make any sense at all and two-dimensional thing something that has no depth. That doesn't make sense to me. And no, I would it appear

suddenly? No, I'm not hard and, you know, I'm not a two-dimensional but a four or five dimensional. Why would it suddenly appear in hours in our three-dimensional World, an interface? Have you ever read this little scene? This delightful. A book called flatland by a square. Yes. And there you see brings it down by one dimension. It talks about creatures triangles, octagons, hexagons and squares that all live on a

large sheet of paper. And the, the, I think it's the triangles have precedence over the squares and the winners triangle meets the heck that square A square has got to give way. And one day a sphere comes to visit them. You remember what happens to these people that live in the two Dimensions, they first see it as a point and enlarges it. Large Circle, and then it

disappears again. There's the sphere passes through that sheet of paper, you see, and all you have to do and I say all you have to do is just up that by one dimension instead of a two-dimensional or three-dimensional and I four dimensional thing would appear to us magically it would appear by Magic much like the Cheshire Cat in Alice in Wonderland. Remember the Cheshire Cat the Disappeared. Leaving only its grin where it went into another dimension and

Marsh gas. Gosh you invented you coined the word ten years ago or so I want to talk about that and get on the telephone to have some listeners have been very patiently. Hanging on our number is eight seven, five, four, four, seven, six, and dr. Hynek will answer your calls. Okay, we'll see what you have to say any Close Encounters. You might have had or would like to ask. Do you have been holding on the line very patiently? What is it?

You'd like to ask dr. Hynek yeah, for a good morning dr. Hynek, good morning, yes. I have two questions. And number one under the United States, Freedom of Information Act, how does a United States citizen obtain? A copy of the Project Blue Book. All right, that's available. It's a little expensive, but it's available in ninety four. Reels of microfilm that run you about a thousand dollars if you want those. However, that's precisely what I did.

I got those 90 for reals. And have extracted taken out the, my say, the juicy parts and published them in the Dell paperback. The hynek UFO report, which ought to be available in in bookstores around here and that's your easiest way of getting information. If you want to spend $1000 and buyer, the 94 reels of microfilm from the archives fine, but I it's a little on the expensive

side and my second question. If a group of men have designed a prototype of a elect electronic magnetic, ion propulsion engine, where would you recommend they go in order to get a patent on this development? Well you've you've introduced the term patent there. I think it's always a wise idea to have one's ideas protected by patents because the world is full of unscrupulous people. I would somehow I've never had a patent in my life but I've had

many copyrights but not patents. I expect a patent wire would be the first person to see about that. Well, apart from that, I would say I would certainly contact some people in, NASA in Washington, say that you have all those have this thing and they undoubtedly would be interested. Now, they're basically very honest group and I don't think they would steal your idea. Okay. Thank you sir. Thank you very much. Hello, you're on the radio here on WJR with dr. J Allen hynek.

Yes. About three years ago and Air Force and Air Force, installation on the East Coast there appeared three unidentified flying objects over the ocean. Now, the Air Force Security people the base commander, all the people on that Air Force Base people in the surrounding towns saw. These objects. Franny call with me to an Air Force Base for fighter and investigation, the people at the fighter base that don't worry about it. They watch these UFOs for about two hours.

There were three of them. They didn't know the size of them. Or the distance that they were away, because they were over water, and they had nothing to judge them by. They stay there approximately two hours and then took off, now, they took off at a speed that must have been about five to ten times the speed of a Rocket taking off. Now, have you heard about that

and can you explain it? Well, first of all, I certainly couldn't explain it other than calling you to UFO and every let's always remember that the you and UFO simply means unidentified, right. No, I had not heard any, we may have, we have in our computerized Data Bank, some 60,000 reports, and we can get print out.

So that any, if you, for instance, wanted to know what cases there were in your own neighborhood or in the yurt County or something, the sort of your state, we can have a printout of that but I don't have the computer bank with me here. So I don't know that that particular case, you know, one thing we forgot. JP is we forgot. In re talking about the UFO reporter. We've got to give the address to where people might get it and I'd be delighted to do that.

I'm sure you just want to ask me where one can get it. That was, I was going to give it for you, but I don't see it on here. 924, Chicago abydos, right? Or just simply and annoy is sufficient where well enough known their UFO reporter. Evanston Illinois will take. The zip is 6020 to our, that's always important, unless I go with, let me add this now, that is, it's going to cost you a dollar asset. Since the 1200 dollar, copy less than a drink. We it sir.

Let me ask you this and we've got about want to get onto the weather and then we'll get back on the telephone. But some folks did you did you witness these yellow gold? Have our yes. Did you see these? No fair, I did not personally see these, but I was informed by very reliable sources people, if we had hoped this morning to get some, some Direct first-hand. Ports of yeah.

And I think that's one thing we want to tell the listeners and that it's their scientific duty to report things that they feel were really truly puzzling. Because we have very good evidence at the center for UFO studies. That 9 out of 10 people who have had a UFO experience have failed to report it simply because they feared ridicule, right with ridicule is a very real thing. It certainly is sir. Thank you for calling. Thank you very much.

Okay, we'll be on the telephone and just a couple seconds. We would like to believe me if you have feared ridicule and you think you've seen something? Frightened you or startled, you that you couldn't explain and didn't tell anyone about it. The anonymity anonymity of the telephone and the radio is yours. It's not an easy word to say this, our damage to be 17 before 8:00 on, WJR with dr. Honey. Yes, I called to say that.

I think I'm one of the nine out of 10 who never reported a sighting occurred about 10:30 at night on a pole. Windy rainy spring night about a year ago and was proceeding. On a highway and saw a huge red light up ahead.

And my first thought was that this was possibly the top light of new antenna or you know, tower that they put an obstruction light on and was huge and as I proceeded North on the highway, in The Light Came toward me, I could see that it was not one life but two lights which had merged as one at a distance and Between the two lights, were possibly a faint, green light, and then just maybe a hazy grey light on each side of the green light in the center.

And then, of course, the two red lights on the outer side, which were huge by the way. And then to a white spot lights, which were crisscrossing on each side of the red light. Wow, that what a vivid description that is, well, I'm glad you're reporting it now. Are you, did you do demonstrate one thing with Traveler? Go call the escalation of

hypothesis. There are when people do finally report, they will say, at first, I thought it was an accident on the road and that the light was a flasher Beacon, then I realized it wasn't that and then I thought it was maybe an aircraft coming in and so forth. People try to explain it to them to themselves first and then they sort of driven up to the wall and they did realize that they can't explain it. Now, how did, how long did this whole thing?

Last I'd like to ask you? Okay, I let me put it this way. I turned off. Off I-75 onto a highway going directly, north and south, my home, being exactly four miles away. And I proceeded, probably half a mile when I saw the red light. Now, that's little hilly in this area. And I saw the red light when I finally travel, maybe another mile and a half, which would be two miles away from my home. I got a very good.

Look at the course it was dark about 10:30 at night, it was bowling raining, you know, type of evening and I got a good look at it, put it approximately a two To Crossroads. And I lost my train of thought I would very much like to have you and any other listeners who was one of the nine out of ten to write it up and reported, send it into the center for UFO studies in Evanston. Illinois. And we operate like as a clinic. You might say, we never divulge the names of people who report to us.

So that your report is treated completely confidentially. We release your name, only with your permission. Mission. So you don't have to worry about that. Okay, dr. Hynek, what of the claims made? When I had, when I told what I had seen to France was that this was an advertising plane and, of course, it seems ridiculous to me at 10:30 in the evening with a rainy boy night that an advertising plane would be out.

Well, 10:30 in the evening, wouldn't be bad, but they were the Rainy blowing night and also they don't fly that. How lower the clouds? Do you imagine know that? I can't tell? You know, there was no fact but of course obviously Stars are visible. There's nothing in the sky and the red lights are so huge. I have looked constantly every night. I go out to see if there's a petition was written large.

This it would be almost like a stop light up in the sky and how I lost my train of thought went home. How did it disappear? Well. Okay, then at that point, I was heading north on the highway to go home and I continued the two miles and ran in the house. Got a pair of binoculars, jump back in the car, and went back down the road, but it was gone. Gone.

Hmm and of course as I said, my first thought that it was the right on top of obstruction line on top of a new tower, but having lived in the area for 10 years. And I've since worked and obviously there's no power there. How close do you think? I know judging distances at night is very difficult. But how close do you think it may have come to, okay? A ten-point at the spot where I got a good look at it at approximately like a quarter of a mile away, or at least it were

the two roads crossed their quarter of a mile away. that doesn't make it a close encounter, but it makes it a good nocturnal light on the basis of 7u, it doesn't strike you as an advertising plan, doesn't know, not from what you've said and the weather seems to argue against that because the only thing was that I could see no form because it was so dark. I could see where these huge lights with the two spotlights criss-crossing at the outer end

of the red light. I don't suppose you lower the window and listen, did you do I didn't cut? It was raining and blowing hurt. Yeah. Well, please do send that report into the center for UFO studies in Evanston. Illinois 6020 to Now there's another one, if you have the time, which it can you hang on for just a half a second. Okay, I've got to take care of a little business here, and we'll be back on the telephone.

We want to give some of the other folks have been hanging out a chance to. Okay. We would you mind calling us back a little later? No problem. Thank you. Madam. My I don't think you do want the cloak of anonymity so just go ahead and tell dr. Hynek your story, I don't mind giving the location. This was on October, the second 1973. I'm reading some notes that I'd written down a couple three years ago. It was a 10:15 p.m. and it was

about five miles. North of route to 70 on Route 23 in central Ohio. Now, I commute this route for like nine years and so it was, it was easy to spot, something out of the ordinary. And there was a, I have written here on oval white with a reddish, Gleek Green Glow to the left of the road. It was about A quarter of a mile off the road, probably 100 to 200 feet in the air, so it wasn't very far up. It was a bright night so you could see the shape of it against the sky.

It was probably about a 20 degree ellipse shape. I written that it was probably about 40 feet across 30 to 40 feet across. I got pretty excited at the time so I didn't stop but I did have the Phenomenon. I guess you'd call it of having my automobile, quit running properly. The lights dimmed in the motor

began to miss. Like, when it's running out of gas for just a few moments and then it started running again fine and I pulled in the state highway patrol and I got a patrolman out and we both looked at it and I asked him if that was something that he knew about, he said only from phone calls coming in And I couldn't really understand why anything like that be around Ohio except that it occurred to me that this is Perkins Observatory. One of the big radio telescopes

has would have been less than a half-mile from it beg. Pardon. I used to work at Perkins Observatory for many years, so, now, the area. I know the area very well. Yeah, it was right on the hill. They called Kingman Hill me as I know that.

Well, it was just, I'd say, 300 yards to the left of the road and not very high up. Well, no, I definitely want you to send this report in, to me at the center for UFO studies in not as Joe said, Chicago. But Evanston, Illinois, and the zip is 6020 to okay, and your name will not be used without your permission, so don't worry about that, okay? This is a very interesting case. What is your technical background of my, if I may ask, I'm not a technician, I'm a I'm

a commercial artist. Hey, you can draw this thing for us when you come, how about a good sketch? I could do that. That would be great. I like that. You know, your experience sounds an awful lot. Like, one of the episodes from the movie, Close Encounters, then a doctor having yes it does. Except that was moving much more

his, this made, no movement. It just stayed stationary in the sky, like you'd be looking at a big big lady described like a big tower, but there was nothing supporting it seemed to be some One, or was it a, just a light? It seemed to be solid, you know, but it hadn't enjoyed and glow to it. That's the only good word. I can describe.

I thought at the beginning, it was a helicopter with blinking lights, but when you got close enough, you could see that they weren't blinking lights, they were undulating glowing areas of light while he's not defined sort of moving and then it just disappeared, you know, it didn't make any movement, it didn't go off quickly or anything. It just simply There any longer you said the policeman also sought yes, right?

They have no way of knowing his name but I did report it to the state patrol and in it was the Delaware offer. We're going, we're taking reports then and writing them down. At least they told me they were young and they were getting other calls about it that every time. Yeah, when I walked into the station because I happen to be right there. I used to live in Delaware for years so I know the area I see well I had written down two or three others that alright.

It down and send to you. I have a tape because I switch my tape recorder on the car. Looks very good and I couldn't locate it this morning because I really am not sure where I put it, but I'd like to hear it again. Myself, please do send me a copy of that too, would you? Okay. I'll be glad to now David. The address again for both of you and our other listeners and those who want to subscribe to the international UFO, reporter is the center for UFO studies, Evanston Eva and is to you.

And Evan Illinois, 60, 20, 20, 20 to write. Thank you very much for calling. Thank you. It's nice of you to do that, but from Delaware, Ohio, that qualifies as a genuine close encounter, I would say so yes. Hang on for a second, we'll take more calls with dr. J Allen hynek and our UFO close encounter morning here on WJR. Detroit, you know, an awful lot of people are coming out of the

closet. These days, I don't know whether it's because of the effect of the movie, A lot of people have seen Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Box office reports indicate that it will be one of the best seen most seen movies in history, but there was a surprise about that dr. Hynek explain, something that you thought might happen as a result of the success of the

movie. That hasn't, well, I thought until it's sorted, many others that, you know, people who would never bother, looking up at the sky before would look up after having seen that picture and they would make the same sort of mistakes that have been made by thousands of people, they would mistake Jupiter, and Venus and meteors, and Adelaide from God knows what but that is not been happening. Oddly enough. What has been happening?

Is that the picture has apparently given people courage to report things that they were reluctant to report before, and cases that are several years old are coming out of the closet. So to speak said Vivid, you welcome that kind of, Newser, is old news. Just so difficult to follow up on that, it's hardly worth while. Oh, no. Those are.

Those are, those are the ones we really want because the current ones are apt to be mistakes, but something that happened to a person five years ago and they have remembered it vividly isn't as apt to be a genuine case. Okay, in Pascagoula Mississippi that rather famous case were two fishermen. Supposedly went under hypnotic, regression and talked about an experience with a, with a visitor, a spaceship or

something. Tell us that story, and tell us what you think about it. Well, that is the case that I investigate I was there within Eight hours after it happened. What did they say happened? Well the two men were Charlie Hickson and Calvin Parker and what they said happened is that they were fishing on the banks of the Pascagoula River. And this I'll make a short story. His craft came down, we did not land as Harvard behind them and to very, very odd looking creatures.

Floated down, lifted and floated, Charlie Higson back, aboard. And he told us that an instrument, that looks something like a big, I passed over him several times. As though giving him a medical examination. And when I got down there, I found those men. Definitely in a State of Shock. They there's no question in my mind that they think this happened that is to them. It was a very real experience whether it was real in the, our sense of real, I honestly don't

know. But what is real philosophers have been worrying about that, for centuries to them, it was real and they did, they could not undergo, hypnosis, the nurture harder try to hypnotize. Charlie Higson, but he resisted it and got terribly terribly upset. So whether I'm not sure what that means. But if this were the only case like that, I would dismiss it out of hand, for we have dozens of cases similar to that.

Matter of fact, what is not known and maybe even you don't know Joe that, that case, hit the Press. But within a few weeks on either side of that, famous case on October 11th, 1973 there were 70 Other cases of Close Encounters of the Third Kind, which were not reported to the Press at the center for UFO studies. We've just published a report on there called 1973 year of the humanoids and that's also obtainable for the center for UFO studies.

Now the, the humanoids, these creatures that these people say, they say they saw. Do they look anything like the the creatures as depicted in Close? Encounters the movie. Oh, absolutely. In fact, that where you got it from? That's where Steven Spielberg? From he when I became a technical advisor to Close Encounters of the Third Kind at first, I was not going to have anything to do with a Hollywood movie because I felt that would really ruin my scientific

credibility. But when I discovered that Spielberg had really done his homework very well and had was very knowledgeable. He based the appearance of the creatures pretty much on actual UFO reports. Yeah, yes ma. Well they looked at they almost look like an embryo Ow. Yeah, well actually I would tend to describe them know in general as overgrown, goblins are generally large head, spindly bodies and I am not making this up. This is what's reported, you see, and I'm acting here, largely.

Just as a reporter. Telling you, what? What people tell me you were a great disbeliever. I want to talk about that. And how much you've changed? I met, dr. Hynek, in a minute here, it was his doing. He It was - gasps I want to find out about that in just a second. You were sightings of something UFO, sightings in the Ann Arbor area. Also Dexter and Dexter. And as I recall noodles, Dale and you came in, you were great to Bunker.

In those days, you were, you headed the investigation team for the Air Force, in my right coming in to have a look. It was their consultant. Well, I had an investigation that immediate one. Yes, yeah. Well that's what I meant and you determined. It was Marsh gas. How did you make that determination? Oh boy.

Well the point is that At the press conference, which they tell me, was the largest in history that Detroit, Press Club. At that time, I had said and I have it on record that if we limited our attention to the faint light, that the girls at Hillsdale had seen in the swampy area, the Arboretum that those could be explained as swamp gas, but what happened here is that the reporters apparently needed a buzzword and swamp gas was it. And soon as I mentioned that,

they underlined it in their press release and dashed off to the telephones and Couldn't say hold on boy. That's not the whole story swamp gas was it and I believed it and it is a matter of fact the faint light still could have been explained as swamp grass but not them. Nothing major side he's not the large things that were reported. Okay, did the Air Force ever? Tell you, you look dr. Hynek we don't want to cause any Panic. Explain this away as natural phenomena.

Well, did they say that to you either directly or /? Insinuation by insinuation? Yes, but not directly, they never gave me any specific orders, but it was quite clear that they wanted me to do the best. I could to explain it as a natural thing. Yeah. And I tried but today I would do it quite differently today. I would say, look, let's you can't conduct a scientific investigation in this excitable atmosphere with reporters buzzing around and you Don't get

a halfway thought in edgewise. And so, I would say we would have to get together data studied carefully, and come out with some sort of a Jelly's preliminary idea in a few days or a week but not on the spur of the moment. How many books have you written on the subject of UFOs? Well, the first one was the UFO experience which was the in which I coined the phrase Close Encounter of the Third Kind.

And then this most recent one, the hynek UFO report but didn't have another one with jointly with Jacques de molay, called the edge of reality, but behind the UFO report, even though the title is not a very modest one eye, Was a Publisher's idea.

By the way, is an Exposé really of the Air Force handling, because I was there for those many years and I saw the way in which the Air Force the Cavalier way in which therefore has handled this whole problem, did they just out of hand, cover it up, just to, but without any investigation at all know, they would make investigations. And as I point out in the book, The more certain they were that it was a natural thing. The more they would investigate, they, they went out.

And they would read from any that comes in from the air, and it's a little difficult little face losing to say, look, there's something in our atmosphere that we don't understand. It's much easier to say, whether it's a, we do understand it Perfectly Natural. It's a swamp gas. Its aircraft and so forth. Was this on a directive? From some power on high, the secretary of the Air Force or the president of the United States, or was this you You think that this responsibility

was assumed by some generals? Well, the Project Blue Book and the director of the people who ran it had a job to do and they were acting pretty much under the directive or direct recommendation of the CIA convened Robertson panel, which was only the air for the CIA was not afraid of UFOs. They were afraid of UFO reports in the things that you reports might do. Two people at that time, this whole question of subversion was much more in the air than it is

today. And they were afraid that the various UFO flying saucer clubs and organizations might be used as fronts for subversive activity. Also, another thing that was very important in July of 1950 to for several days, the military wires became literally clogged with UFO reports and the CIA was afraid that if Some Nation wanted to launch another Pearl Harbor.

All they need to do would be to get their agents to spawn a whole bunch of false, UFO reports, clog the military wires and confuse the situation so they see how it was quite seriously. Concerned. Not so much with UFOs but with UFO reports, motivated dude, with good reason. Good reason, Buncombe. Oh, yes, yes. And they give their director with their recommendation, I should say was a very strong one that the Air Force do everything in its power to debunk.

Play down a hole. Work sort of thing and you were part of that debunk. I was part of that. You have you ever seen a flying saucer? I've never had a close encounter but on two occasions I have seen things which I definitely could not explain and have not been able to explain to this day as an astronomy Professor. It's unlikely that they were celestial bodies. Now they're well, that's very true.

I mean, that's one thing I do believe I'm competent to identified although it's surprising how many people are not. That is people are still puzzled very much by a very bright meteor, even train. The pilots were we had cases in which commercial pilots have swerved their airplanes thinking that they were on a head-on collision. Course with something to turned out to be a very bright meteor 100 miles away or so.

And we're gonna get on the telephone again and encourage folks, if they would like to talk to dr. Hynek that we would like to talk to people who have had to use his coined phrase, close encounters and we will offer you and eliminate on the telephone number is eight seven, five, four, four, seven, six, several people on the line. Have you had a close encounter Yes, I have.

I have some photographs that I took in 1974 of UFO and I've never known what agency to get in contact with that might be interested in them. Well, you got one now and I'm very anxious to see the photographs please do, send them, but don't send the original negatives. I don't want to be responsible for those but hang on to those, but let me see The Prince and in if we want to have been investigated further, then I would make arrangements, special arrangements to see the original negatives.

Okay? Or should I send them to the Center for UFO studies? 924 Chicago Avenue Evanston, Illinois. And that's the zip is 60 20 to 60 2002. Okay. Okay. Yes. We're on the radio here on WJR, dr. Hynek is listening to you. Go ahead. Thank you. Are dr. Hynek I ever was in high school and 47 when this phenomenon for starting our radar and ever since then the things I've lectured on. And what have you? I want to ask you a couple of things, I realized the other

people on the line. So get off as quickly as possible. I want to ask you about the flap in Washington DC in 1952 and for six hours, a these things are over the Pentagon and then gave them a fit down there on. Ask you about the possibility that in Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio that they do have, I've heard the remains of

an occupant of a UFO. When you talk about the pictures that we don't have that the Air Force probably does have when they were asked to put cameras in the nose of their Jets. When they chase these things of the Couldn't catch him. Lisa can take pictures of them could you comment on any of these things? Yeah, I'm very quickly on all of

them. The 1952 flap has never been adequately explained, they've tried to call it atmospheric and version, but the inversion was not very strong at that time. And so it is still unexplained as far as the remains or cadavers of UFO occupants at right field. I think that is just a story we've never had any. I've never found any evidence that that was And of course, if any one of our listeners has that information that could be authenticated, I would be delighted to know about it.

Think that story had great currency a couple of years ago and it's it pops up every once in a while right now. As far as the aircraft Air Force photographs I too have heard that I've been told by military Pilots that when they got back to base their gun camera, photos were confiscated and so forth but whenever I ask these people to go to a notary public and And the swear out an affidavit that this is true.

They say, Well, they're remember the reserves or they can't they're under oath or something of the sort. So, as far as I'm concerned, those Still Remains stories. I unauthenticated undocumented stories every day. They had our Air Force report, PR 200 days, to which said that Air Force pilots, who had seen anything? If they had talked to anyone, they didn't maintain secrecy. They would be such that it In prison are fine or two thousand

dollars, you worry about that? Moving gesture that was in Gina put 1460, which is still in effect. It is so that a military pilot must report. Any unidentified think, of course, their Definition of unidentified is very, very Broad New Russian, aircraft would be considered unidentified, they must report and it is quite true. They're still under considerable

threat of a fine. If they say they're allowed to To talk about it. If it is identified, there are not allowed to talk about as long as it remains unidentified. I want to point out that the movie was just tremendous from one who has been reading for years on this. I didn't see it. As science fiction did such a good job on depicting situation that I had read about four years one. Last question, sir, the seems to me that these things appear so often that their appearances can

almost be predictable. Would you say that's okay, well,

we're trying. We are for were running computer studies now on As soon as it appears that possibly will be able to predict waves of UFO sightings in the future, but it's still too early to say hi. There is certainly an unusual interest in our nuclear installations are care about these things, you know, let me let me have a Perfectly Natural, explanation is the military installation, the nuclear X installations, especially of course, have 24-hour guards, and

they're out there watching and they would be more apt to see something. When it happens, of course, another explanation is that They're under surveillance but I don't know, dr. Webber. What are your thoughts is to if indeed these things are extraterrestrial e directed, why don't they land make themselves known? Well, that's one of the questions that's the situation. They don't why. Well, I suppose I could turn the question around and say why should they? I don't know.

It's you might just we'll ask why do kangaroos jump? They do. See The hardest thing to get across in this whole field is that this is a research problem. We have lots of questions and very few answers. I might turn around asking why don't we have the cure for cancer yet? We've been studying it for a long while but it's like so many people, see these things.

It just it just makes logical sense to say well they apparently mean no harm because so far as we know, they have caused none or at least very little, they are obviously curious or they wouldn't be Keeping us under surveillance or having a look, why don't they land and make themselves known? That's, that's a great question. I wish I knew the answer hang out for a second doctor dr. J Allen hynek with us. So almost 8:45 on a snowy, Friday morning in Detroit.

Warming you up with talk of you after that, Mel wanted to know about that guy. Well, that's a very good example of a close encounter of the first kind. It was very close but nothing really happened. Young Navy man was walking home from his girlfriend's in near Exeter New Hampshire. When this brilliantly illuminated object flashing lights and so forth, swoop down on him and he swooped into the ditch and getaways

panic-stricken. He then receded, he dashed to the nearest Farmhouse, pounded, on the door, woke the people, they call the police, the police came out and there was nothing. I was just at the police were about to leave the object Rose from behind the trees and both policeman. Saw it without any question and their life was made miserable for them by the Air Force, which refused to believe.

If anything they had said and in my books matter of fact I have an account in exchange those letters that went between the two policemen and the Air Force and it was really Irreprehensible the manner in which the Air Force tried to smear the reputation of these policemen calling them, essentially deluded in the so forth. GOI with why would the Air Force again? Go to Such Great Lengths to suppress all of this.

They were just under the idea, they adopted the theorem you might say that, it can't be there for. It isn't just simply assumed that these things had to be natural. As I assumed at one time that obviously, it had to be loud. Nonsense, but you never went into reputation destroying. However, know that is true, I would never do that. You know, getting UFO

information. First of all reporting it is a problem of one has to make a an emotional decision, an intellectual decision actually, whether they want to get involved or not and as you point out, nine out of ten, they decide they do not for fear of ridicule and other reasons to in order to get some good F. UFO information, do you what do you recommend a subscription? Of course, I guess to you. Well, yes I think but let me let me let me.

Back up on that little bit even before the picture Close Encounters of the Third Kind became so popular. We'd been getting at the center for UFO studies. Many many requests from students from various parts of the country saying that they were doing a term paper and UFOs or that they were having class discussion.

And just now with the picture, I can imagine that next few months classrooms all over the country are going to be having UFO discussions and I think it is really bad that those kids have to turn to the entire blood Sent to the sleazy magazines and new stands for their information. They ought to be able to get especially School, libraries ought to have access to responsible information and that can be obtained through the

international UFO reporter. Which is a monthly newsletter, which I edit and which, therefore, I stand back of anything that's in it. Each month. For instance, we publish a map of all the cases that have been reported to us. Those that we can explain we

plot his dog. Ott's those that we can't explain, we plot a stars and the interesting ones are summarized in the in the UFO reporter and that's a subscription for that is $12 a year dollar a month and it is obtainable at the offices of the center for UFO studies at 924, Chicago, Avenue, Evanston, Illinois, 6020 to our. It's a matter of fact, just simply Center for UFO studies, Evanston Illinois, 60 202 is would suffice, okay, how many people do you have it?

The center for UFO studies? Working about 20 but most of them are volunteers because the center is funded entirely by contribution popular contributions voluntary contributions, which, by the way, I want to hasten to point out are tax deductible. This is not a UFO club or age is

not supported by the government. Incidentally, if we're being monitored right now, by anybody up there in any kind of a vehicle, Cereal or otherwise, and you feel like you would like to contact us, please do call collect area, KOA query, 1387 544. 40K, you're on the air with strip about 10 years ago, I was driving from Ann Arbor to Jackson at dusk and I saw a bright light from a distance, and I thought it was a barn fire because it was out in the country.

And as I got closer, I realized that it wasn't. But I still obviously thought of other things that it could Could be and it was important enough that all the traffic was stopped and I-94 and pulled off on the side of the road. Well, I was in a convertible and I was also late for a play. I was going to. So I kept going, I was off of frightened and so I kept going and but it has bothered me

enough for 10 years. That I've tried to duplicate it in my, you try to say something that would be similar and I never could. And at that time, I did call the Sheriff's Office and he said, We don't want any reports and we don't want to hear anything about it and nothing happened away and never went back. And I said the traffic was stopped there must have been 60 or 70 cars stopped. He said lady, you didn't see it, you know, you were really dreamy, but it was a like, a theater Marquee in.

I mean, the only thing I could in my mind think that it would like a theater Marquee. But it, but about a three-story High building and it was large, but the lights were blinking. In random fashion and beneath it, I thought that it was trying to repair a radio antenna or something, because there was this long thing with red lights on it, like a radio antenna, was it station area? Was it moving? It was just hovering and there was no sound at all.

And I was about 60 Acres away as it was across the field and in between, there was a fence and it was I don't think there was any noise, but my car was going, but it certainly wasn't noise like you would think to Something that big in the air. Are you any good at sketching things? I'm not, but I am a trained Observer. I have directed and produced television, as a matter of time. So, I'm quite aware of visual operation.

I was wondering if you could sketch me or to give me a, give me a, a verbal description written description. That is and I will send it to you, but I wondered. If anybody else has ever talked and produces many cars were stopped. If this is possible that somebody listening to us right now, is one of those people that were and it was never in the paper. It was never reported but I did go back to school.

I was teaching at that time and I did go back to school and I said to one of the teachers I have, you know, something very funny has happened to me and I have to share with somebody. I've taken my children out and try to find this place and there's no radio antenna. Now, that, you know, it just doesn't disappear overnight and wait. I just wanted some sort of physical evidence to something

have been there. So, I said to the teacher, I'm going to say something to you, but I don't want you to know And and see said they say, enter has been also. Another teacher had experienced something similar at a children's camp in Maine. Something had come down to the hill while the children were on the hill. So I think it's, I think there are a lot of people around here.

Have had experiences allowed very educated people but because I didn't want to lose my job and say they want to lose this. I think you raised a very, very important point there and the movie now is making it more socially acceptable to talk about. Out, UFOs UFOs are no longer a dirty word. And we are now getting cases at the center which are old 5 to 10 years.

Old at feet, people have been reluctant to report and I would like to point out to our listeners that I feel it is their scientific duty to report such cases, because how can we ever solve this problem, if we don't have proper data to work with, Okay? Thank you very much for calling my doctor, honey. Thank you. We're going to take a 15 minute break here and candy Learn ranking. Skeptic you were a ranking Skipper. I certainly was the the fact

remains that UFO reports exist. They continue to come in from all over the world. And from many of them are come from very responsible persons. So either you give the these are the fact that you can't controvert. Have I been have I been misled or misinformed in thinking that That there have been more UFO reports in the United States

than in other foreign countries. We have a great, many of course simply because communication is so good, but Canada, for instance, there are more UFO sightings per capita in Canada than there are in the United States. What about some of the Western European countries?

Where we have reports now from? Well over 100 different countries, but reporting and Communications are sometimes difficult to language difficulties for one thing governmental difficulties and others since Go to get reports from the Iron, Curtain Iron Curtain countries, for instance. Although we do they have the same sorts of things there that we have here. Okay. So it's a report doctor headache. Like, I want to see a UFO, I've never seen one.

I've never even seen any bright lights to be absolutely honest with you that I couldn't figure out almost instantly. When described as natural phenomena in Good Company, our estimates is that only one out of every 40 or so people actually ever have a UFO experience suppose. When the snow finally does stop in the weather clears up and it's a clear night and I'm driving home or I'm sitting in my backyard and I suddenly see one of these things.

What do we do? The very first thing you should do is get Witnesses for your own protection because then you can say, well look, he saw a 2 or she saw a to but from the scientific standpoint, it's extremely important to have witnesses because then when we go to investigate it, we can get the accounts of the individuals separately.

And that's what we always do. We never get Them together and we interrogate people independently and but you see I am going to be very reluctant to call any police, for example, to call officials because I would be subject to Great ridicule, and I would like to avoid that. Well, After you get your Witnesses, have your, you and have them separately.

Write a simple narrative account of what happened is just very simple things and the time, the duration and then send it to the Center for UFO studies in Evanston. Illinois sin, is it the 6020 to and they're your, you have no fear of ridicule whatsoever because we operate something, like a medical clinic. Medical Clinic doesn't give a names of its Patients Out. Things of that sort neither do we names are not used except without, they're not used except when we have permission to do it.

Okay? So, what you're saying is you don't necessarily have to report this to anyone in officialdom, that's right, okay? Send it to you and you act as a Clearinghouse for all these things. I tell you, how can you possibly examine you and 20 people? All the thousands and thousands of narratives that you must get and enquiries. Well, it isn't difficult to. Weed out the typical cases of sightings of meteors airplanes, advertising planes. Balloon satellites.

They fit a pattern and you can almost spot them almost immediately to any trained. Investigator can spot those we home in on the cases that are really and truly puzzling. And we spent a lot of time investigating. Those sure like to see one dr. Hynek Soju in it. What I'm going to talk to some people, some more people who have had Close Encounters on the telephone. Own in just a minute. Can you hear me sir? Hello, yes? Yes. Good morning. How are you frying?

How are you don't? You're not at off for a minute. Yeah, can we do for you? Well by golly. I'd like to, first of all, the only encounter I had with a very humorous one which wasn't an encounter. I was driving along when I was 12 years old, with my dad coming back from the doctor. And here was this at dusk, or just after dusk, here was this undulating object off in the

distance, just hovering. And my Dad pulled the car off the road, he thought this was Preposterous, you know, in fact he was frightened as a as we stood there, sat in the car and watch this thing. My dad was never shaken in his life by anything except this and then the thing turned around and there was a beer advertisement it was a blimp that led me off though at 12 years old to follow up reports. And as I was 17 or 18, I followed up.

Up the reports and went to UFO Society, meetings and pseudo religious meetings in this type of thing. Few years ago, in fact, a year ago, I ran across the fellow who worked for the government of fellow. I know very, very well and very credible last person in the world that would come up with us really and he said that the when we were orbiting Spaceman that they were buzzed by UFOs.

Is there any truth in this? Well, I've never been able to authenticate that I have spoken to three astronauts who have had UFO sightings Gordon Cooper, Jim mcdivitt and Deke Slayton. Only mcdivitt had his sighting in the in space. The other two were here on solid Manuel. Deke Slayton was in an aircraft. If it's difficult to call those people diluted or liars, and but as Is anything seen on the way to the moon? No one has ever confessed that

to me at any rate. I see I was referring to in, orbit around the Earth that have been Jim mcdivitt and there have been other reports, but I won't believe them. I don't accept them. Unless I've talked to the person of personally and having one way or another authenticated it. Okay. And in this was a happy with me. I'm I'm a real skeptic a real agnostic.

When it comes to the backhand about 1957 or so, about the time Sputnik went up, I was on the mailing list for one of the societies and I thought this was great fun, and I could see nothing based. In fact, years later, I went through all these things before I threw them out, all these tracks and pamphlets and alleged proof. Do you know what year, the Van Allen belts were discovered Well let's see. It must have been well in the early early satellites so that must have been about 58 or 59.

Okay I remember looking at one of these pictures of the earth that the society Society sent me and personally I thought they were a bunch of crackpots but here was this beautiful line drawing of Van Allen belts and that's about the only thing credible I ever came up with that. I would have on taper as far as that there. Being visiting us but the rest of it made no sense whatsoever. Gee, thank you for having us over here. Your I think it's always important to have intelligence

Skeptics in this right thing. After all. You were one for a great many years and you still are your Skellig Lasik lie. I don't accept more than one hundredth of stuff. I hate her. Okay, the real pleasure talking to you Doctor. Thank you. Thanks for calling. Right by them. Hello? Yes, I didn't realize it was my turn. It's your turn. I would like dr.

Hynek about some A ssion. This happened on Colorado between 1949 and 1952. I was living out there and my father's cousin who was an Air Force officer at that. Time was transferred to our Air Force Base in Denver, one weekend in his family, came to visit us out Northeastern Colorado and UFOs came up in the conversation. And I told my Dad's cousin about a recent article, in a monthly magazine named Dieter pageant or Coronet. That went into great detail about the inside and the outside

of UFO and its occupants. And the UFO has been found. As I remember our Arizona, they had crashed and my dad's cousin worked. Absolutely stunned.

And he said that since all disappeared in a national magazine, he felt that he could see why he had been sent to Larry Air Force Base and he and some other officers had been run out there to a school level, top secret and they I've been learning everything that I had read in this magazine and I don't recall whether it's government or the air force that had, they are reluctant to do. So, would we need? See this story has cropped up many, many times.

If it could be authenticated it would be a tremendously, exciting thing, Jack Anderson or somebody should uncover it. But I am not going to accept it unless I have definite. Identification of it. Well unfortunately my dad said cousin passed away a couple of years ago and he had retired from the Air Force. I might mention, I don't know whether it would help or not. I think it was a pageant magazine. I'm not sure.

I do know that after the article appeared in the magazine it was never seen on the newsstands again. Well I that's that's a help but you really need. If you could get an Air Force officer who went to that school. Yes. Ma'am. You can't important thing. Kind of have a first-hand report. Yeah. Okay. Thank you for calling. You're welcome. Thank you, you swear on the radio that dr. Hynek here on WJR Downriver and we were driving along our little Street here.

This is about 10 years ago and we see this light from the are shining down on us and we stopped the car by the neighbors, was on the sidewalk and we looked up and this was an object. It was the if that came down was yellow, of course, like a light, like a beacon. My husband is always said that. If, if they've taken pictures, they've got our picture. This, he always said this, he says, well, he must be photographic and the we watch this it was it was about the heights of black worthy.

The third ripples will fly like the Goodyear in this sort of thing and the blimps and so we we watched it wasn't very long just maybe like a minute or two. It was like a yellow green light. And it looked like lights on it, but you I couldn't tell that part because the light was shining down real bright and all of a sudden it flew to the west and it just went you. It was just like, you couldn't

even snap your finger. It went that rapidly and when it flew it left them it was like it left a cone after it like maybe if that was the I don't know. I always figured like some of these airplanes that are skywriting but this is this is what we saw and I'm in the Downriver, it was about 10 years ago. No. No, he did. You report that to anybody. No. Because at that time to this you we didn't really how to even tell her family.

It was around the time when you know, the papers were debunking it and everyone was debunking. It was so we really didn't tell anyone this neighbor up the road, we don't really know him at all, but, and we never did talk to him about it after that. But, but we thought and we were, we were You know, we can never know influence of anything but it just seemed like. And again, this morning, my husband says, will you tell me

took her picture? And that's all that was our impression of it. This brings up the very important points and many people not only are reluctant to report, but they also tell me, they don't know where to report and the place. Certainly one of the places to report is the center for UFO studies in Evanston.

Illinois, the ZIP code is 60 202 and the phone number there, Is area code, 312, 44, 91, 1870. If I were to write this up, of course, I didn't know until this morning, there was a place that you can write and I've been listening to you since you come on fat, girl isn't JP when he had it the other time and these, these things sound fantastic. But from what we saw, I know

they're not. I know they're really true because we saw this on. Why don't you write it up and send it into the center for UFO studies to give the address once again doctor All right, is the center for UFO studies. 924 Chicago Avenue Evanston, Illinois 6020 to or just the center for UFO studies. Evanston illinois is probably sufficient. The post office knows as pretty well by now, and the zip is 6020 to do that. Thanks for calling dr. Hynek.

I've witnessed you this morning. Take several phone calls, you have taken reports of Of UFO, sightings from literally thousands of people, maybe, even hundreds of thousands of remember that many. But we do have 60,000 reports at first of all, you must get weary of these because and secondly, is there a great similarity is that? They do all these various reports, no matter how strange they might sound to do any of them have one thing in common that from which you can draw some conclusions.

Well, there's certainly similar, let's put it this way that some people We'll say it's all imagination. Well, if it were all imagination, we ought to be able to get. We ought to be getting reports of pink elephants with roller skates or the Taj Mahal being seen in New Orleans. Or in other words, Pure Imagination would give us all sorts of reports.

We don't, we get a fairly definite pattern of reports and from different cultures, from central Africa, from Papua New Guinea from Brazil, from the Outback in Australia. Same sorts of things are reported as From United States and Canada. Let's say where there could have been a relatively small chance for comparison between the people. Yeah, the people in central Africa don't read Time Magazine. I don't believe you never know

what about the saucer shape. The shape seems to change the 30 years ago when they were first reported, they were flying saucers while they still. Are you still have the daylight disks not as many today? But we seem to be getting more and more cases of the clothes. Boundaries rather than the distant ones either they didn't, they were afraid to report Close Encounters earlier or they didn't weren't as many but we keep getting reports, especially older ones.

Now, for instance, the the picture itself is bringing things out of the woodwork, we're getting reports of abduction, cases of very close encounter of the second and third kinds that people will write to us. And tell us this happened in 1965 of duction. Kidnapping. Well, Somebody has picked up and flown around and some sort of a spacecraft are not flown around.

No, I simply do not buy these cases of where people say, they took a trip to Venus in a flying saucer and came back with hair from saturnian, dog or something of that. Sort, the place is covered with pseudo, religious nuts, and I guess that makes our problem that much harder, but the reports of Close Encounters. Our car coming, what are you

talking about abruption? The the typical pattern there, the classic case, of course, is the famous case of Betty and Barney Hill. But there are dozens and dozens of others, the typical pattern that Duvall has developed. Is that for a short time, the people have in their conscious memory of the experience of memory of an excuse fo

experience. Then Amnesia sets in, they will tell us that they didn't know what happened for, maybe an hour or two hours, they Be found farther down the road at the end of that time. And then there again conscious but they're very puzzled as to what happened in that time, lapse. How many of these encounters have been reported about 50 so far?

Are they all similar? Yeah, they're similar in this, they have this conscious period and then the unconscious and what we've been doing as far as our funds permit is to employ, regressive hypnosis, if the Since has been that traumatic, you know, is well known. That the conscious mind will block out a traumatic experience and we've been getting some very, very interesting accounts from under hypnosis.

Now I haven't the least idea how reliable we can count, two things that we get when people tell us under hypnosis, but nonetheless for what it's worth, the stories are remarkably similar, they will report that they were given taken aboard and given some sort of a medical examination are generally. Rather hazy about It but good people. Good to sort of the earth type, people have told us this and you sound like, you believe them. No.

I believe that they are sincere. You believe they believe what they're telling you? Yes, I believe that. Now whether that really look i-i've, always point out that Saul of Tarsus and the road to Damascus, had an experience which transformed him into st. Paul. And that certainly affected the human race. But was it a real experience undoubtedly Saint?

Paul thought it was a real. Experience, you know, Vandana, caen and other writers have tried to draw parallels from Biblical times, and before is a matter of fact to the kinds of things that are happening now and indicating that we the space chariots etcetera that we have been visited before. Do you hold with that? I don't hold with it because simply well Von daniken in the Chariots of the Gods. I cannot respect his scholarship.

I'm and I think I've never been able to finish one of Books because it's it just nauseating to me. He might be right? And certainly, he stirred people's imaginations but there's no the evidence that he tries to bring forth is mostly supposition and ad hoc stuff. Flimsy conclusions very flimsy conclusions. I would say glad to see that you're still somewhat of a skeptic that's that's healthy. You have not turned the corner, and I've been watching you all morning long.

And you were very, very careful to never say. Oh yes, that's I know what that is. You either you seem to be listening as a priest in confessional, or as a psychiatrist on the couch without ever committing yourself? Why is that? Well, because if I'm true to the scientific principles, you don't say a scientist, doesn't say he believes this or people ask me. Do you believe in UFOs? But belief is a sort of, a theological sort of thing. I want to scientist, says he believes something.

He means that he has enough. Evidence now to think that this or that is soul and we're still Gathering the evidence. Okay? Electronic. Well, I'll tell you this, maybe the folks who are observing, us didn't like our conversation this morning because driving conditions have absolutely turned to Glad metaphysical Society the, you know, so yeah. So how are you? It's fine. I was with dr.

Allen hynek, in, 1972, it London England, if he recalls at the festival of esoteric Sciences, where there was Get a number of UFO, enthusiasts from England that met him there. Do you recall dr. When I recall the meeting but I met so many people of that time. That's right. Well Mike affiliation with the whole story goes back from the time of 1947 and my concern and questions were similar to j.p.

Why are you here while eventually we were able to read an organization or a group who would meet and rap about the possibilities of being visited? One of our members, became what we call it. Hello through an electromagnetic beam. Supposedly being to his brain from a craft, and you see, now, you know, some, we start talking like this, you lose me. Wow. Okay. Important says that, we were making supposedly a verbal communication through a individual. Okay?

And our concern was why don't you win, okay? And their indication was that if they were to land, say downtown the city, Detroit 70% of the people would want to. Destroy them for being invaded. Supposedly by monsters the other 30%, they indicated with leg prone and just want to worship them as God's. So we were not prefer to ready for this, kind of communication with extraterrestrial. Why do people assume that's all? I've heard that before. I don't event. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

I don't think. Do you think it makes sense? Why do you Doctor honey? Well, I suppose the the, there's some, if they observe the human race, they know there are. We're a warlike group but I do You better be sufficient reason. Wow, let's put it this way. There's 30 years of communication. Supposedly was identifying objects. I don't call him UFO as I call them. Hiya phones. They are identified. There's something in the sky and

their communication device. Is that what we're seeing our Scout ships as opposed to the Mothership, which house these cows. They indicate that there are mother ships are hundreds of miles long, that the becomes

what we call a very scientific. Fiction phenomena, well I think would be very important to get testable information from them if they could give us some information that we can then for instance, if they had told us what exactly what we'd find on Mars before Viking got there, that would have been beautiful testable information that we've, this is the sort of stuff we need. So if you are communicating with him, please ask him to give us something that we don't know

about yet. Our, let me give you something. Just let me give you something that they wanted to know. Okay, sure they want us to know that we're not A crises that were playing with toys supposedly that some crazy can push a button. The maleate are apply. We, we knew that already, all right? They know it. And they know that we know that in their hair and their concern about us doing the thing that they're proper. They don't wish to play games with us. They don't have to prove their

existence. They want us to prove our own existence. Science is always looking for some belief in. You have to do something doctor when you were on the, the movie was Sensational, result. Question about it away. Taken a great deal of understanding and awareness with everyone have seen it, as there has to be an effect. The story shows that there had been some crap that was returned to the to the Earth or came back into our Dimension. And then off of the great big

ship came. These two Americans who have now returned, is that a science fiction stories in an account? That is supposedly the neck. Part was pure science fiction. Okay? So, thank you very much for calling. I'll see you soon. Take care. All right. Okay, we're going to go to the weather as you've been hanging on for a long time, but I really don't care. Go on here, but I do want to report this Bank. Well, we're on the air right now then if you don't care to go on,

I will take you off. Yes, hello. Yeah, I am going to go and ask him for money. Okay, why our kind of my brother has a they're on their back yard, I have nobody believed her because of our ages. This is about 10 years ago. I think we might have had Close Encounters. Second. I don't know. We saw white. We won't die. Look. Outside of the star and it seemed to come from authorizing to Zenith really quickly a matter of 10 seconds or so. Wasn't a satellite wasn't meteor.

Didn't have any Trail. Got right above us. Exactly above us and we were watching it in an hour there for about a second and checking this top really suddenly just stop and then it started move on again.

It's if didn't have any acceleration at all or anything, you just want to stop the start with nothing in between and went disappeared below the Horizon. Meanwhile there with a second outward at then and then appear to be descending and it got But not too much and then it seemed to get along in this into three small dots and was assembling really rapidly. We don't recover. We and right between word means, we've been standing three things.

I might have been a meteor, hit the ground, and we went out there the next day and there were three small spots on the ground in the backyard. Can see the grass. It was it was feared woke up and it was a person, acquires a little triangle is About the routines that was about the size of a half dollar and three years. After that, nothing ever grew in those spots. And that's a typical story. They the effect that nothing grows, but did you actually see these things fall?

Yeah, it's over between us, we had a very good fewer scared out of our wits news. That's a that's quite interesting. Did you report that Tony what he always important for parents Mesa? Could have bet you're Dreamin And ain't nobody believed it when it's a little old for that report, but the, what is the situation those spots now? Are they still there? We should go back and take a look and let me know, all right.

Matter of fact, why don't you chronicled your report after you go back and look and write it and write a letter and send it to a dr. Hynek at the center for UFO studies and give you to ask whether it's a Well, sufficient to say Evanston, Illinois 6020 to okay. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Thank you for calling dr. Hynek is going to be lecturing at Eastern Michigan University, this afternoon noon at noontime close encounter these things. Teach you anything, you learn anything.

Every bit of information helps us. Suppose we need to get this information because otherwise what do we have to have data to work with? Okay all right. Go ahead you're on the air yes I had a close encounter. When I was in my early teens around, 1956 57 near Lake, Mary Ann Arbor and we were visiting

friends and Gone outside. We've been inside and we went outside and we saw this.in, the Skylight discussed, you know, one night it was moving very fast and it was coming from the southwest headed toward the Northeast. And the man that we were visiting was a doctor who had been a doctor in the Navy and he had a pair of, really excellent binocular. So he went in and got them.

We look through the binoculars and we saw a saucer with a dome, with a slight Haze on it, moving very fast in, in the dresser. That I just mentioned and after we thought everybody sat there absolutely in shock, he went in and called the sheriff's department for more snow County and they had had swamped with calls that easy about an unidentified flying object.

So that was good. We asked you, not to use the word swamp, I have to correct you on one point, that would not classify it as a close encounter close encounter has to be within say, five hundred feet, right? Right. In the light of an unidentified flying object, something that we could identify, that's an interesting case. But it's a little far off but enjoyment. I think that was the man at the service department mentioned that that most people had seen it through binoculars.

So, but it was interesting. Anyway, thank you, bye-bye. How come the the we seem to be getting so many reports this morning of, sightings in the Ann Arbor area? Why would that be We're in then Arbor area, really. And the Ann Arbor area is a very, very tiny of portion of this metropolitan area. Well, that's that's a point. I don't know the answer that. Okay. Can I take you out of the role of a scientist for just a

moment? Okay, let me put you into the role of a man who has been observing studying UFOs for great number of years now and ask you to make a couple of logical. Extrapolations from all this information and project. What you think all of this might mean Well, first of all, when one gets rid of all the static, the noise, the crud separates as best he can. The wheat from the chaff, there's very little week left.

I mean, there's the the number of really solid cases are certainly the minority, but they are there those, if you want them to extrapolate, those do represent. If you're to believe them at all represent some form of intelligence. But where this intelligence is from, whether it is, Some great distances away. Whether it is much closer or whether as some psychologists, believe it may be some product of our own intelligence, some psychic projection from a youngster, from the collective

unconscious. That's hard to see because the, some of the best reports involved, physical traces burns on the ground and radar observations and things of that sort tough for imagination to do that. Yeah, we tough imagination to do that and it will need be nice to theorize and speculate. But I can't stop being a

scientist. I simply will not extrapolate to the point and say that I think it is this or that any more than if I were a doctor of PR the medical doctor, I would say the have a cure for cancer and absolute positive cure for cancer. I mean, I don't and I don't have an answer to the UFO problem either. It does seem to you, however, if I read you correctly, that the vet it is directed by some sort of intelligence, apparently.

You know, whether that that seems to be the case and the difficulty is that the subject has not been treated professionally over the last 30 years, it's we've had a carnival of buffoonery in the thing and for good reason because the great majority of the reports are nonsense, the cases that are really interesting are so bizarre that it's much easier to try to sweep them under the carpet and then we are troubled by the cooks, and the crackpots in the dealings, who insist on.

Muddying up the waters, tremendously with their utterly, fantastic and stupid. I would say theories. Now that appeals to them, obviously, you know, I'd like to just crawl underneath your skin and know what you really feel. You're very, very careful about how you put things in what you say, you should be. I guess you have to remain detached and as objective as you can be. If I lose my scientific credibility, I'm I'm gone. And I, there's enough nuts in this world.

Thought I don't want to join That group as an astronomer and understanding how large this universe is it does it make sense to you that somewhere that there must be by the, by the law of probability figuring the incredible number of planets. There are, there must be some other intelligent beings somewhere. The be the question. You see the astronomer, let me give you a little model, suppose we made a model of everything that the astronomer can today see through telescopes. Rose.

We made that model. Now, as large as the United States, the net, we put our some place in Kansas, and we, let's New York. Be as far as ours. We can see in One Direction in San Francisco. As far as ours, we can see in the other than on that scale in this model, the Earth would not be visible. Even in the world's most powerful electron microscope.

Now, it is preposterous to think that there's some sub microscopic Speck in. Kansas is the only thing on this model that represents life between New York and San Francisco to make odor. Make us absolute Cosmic. Freaks, your colleagues agree with you completely that absolutely. You are convinced their arm then there are many intelligent of planets. Maybe entire systems are tremendous, we can't prove it but I that's their it I think it is would be terribly egotistical

to think that we are. The highest intelligence is in this entire universe. But see the problem is not and I think we can close on this. This statement that the question is not Are UFOs visitors from outer space but the question is, what are you? Those two different questions, dr. Heilig, thank you very much for being with us this morning, fascinating these past three hours went by, like lightning, I remind you again that you can write for the international UFO reporter.

The magazine monthly review, put out on UFO information by dr. Hynek and his colleagues in the center for UFO studies, to Simply by writing to UFO reporter, Evanston, Illinois. And the zip code is 6020 to Tasha dollar coffee. Well, dollars a year right subscription. Thank you again for being with us. Thank you. Utterly fascinating. Thanks again for listening to unnerved. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends and leave a review wherever you get your podcast.

And if you guys want to see photos related to each episode, be sure to follow us on our Instagram at unnerved podcast. Next week. We'll have a regular Story episode and I'm excited for you guys to hear it until then have a good rest of your week and we'll see you then. Thanks again for listening to unnerved. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends and leave a review wherever you get your podcast.

And if you guys want to see photos related to each episode, be sure to follow us on our Instagram at unnerved podcast. Next week. We'll have a regular Story episode and I'm excited for you guys to hear it until then have a good rest of your week and we'll see you then.