Everybody Has Core Wounds - Thais Gibson

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At the beginning of every episode, there will always be time for an acknowledgement. You know, the more we do this, people ask, why do you have to do the acknowledgement in every episode? I got to tell you, I've never been more grateful for... being able to raise my babies on the land where so much sacrifice was made. And I think what's really critical in this process is that the ask is just that we don't forget. So the importance...

of saying these words at the beginning of every episode will always be of utmost importance to me and this team. So everything that we created here today for you happened. on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pekingese.

The Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakoda First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region 3. Our job, our job as humans, is to simply acknowledge each other. That's how. We do better, be better. and stay connected to the good. Welcome back. Welcome in another episode of Unlonely. I don't like this human that you're going to meet today, Tyese Gibson.

is for the last 15 years, this incredible human has helped countless people restore their self-worth, teaching them to break free from unhealthy patterns, form authentic relationships. When I first read her bio, I was like, okay, this is going to be tricky for me because she's developed an understanding of how attachment, childhood attachment shows up in relationships. And I'm like, I bet you do.

And I'm always so critical about therapists. And this season we have almost every guest is some sort of clinician therapist. And this was the point. I wanted a background in people who had answered. to how do we become unlonely? And I have thought about this episode more than I think any episode this season. This woman is phenomenal. I mean,

I knew she was great. She's been on the Ed Milet show. She has been on Mel Robbins podcast. She has like 4 million person email list. Like as a business owner, develop. and as a therapist, I was like, wow, you have done and created research-based evidence to suggest that we need to be doing better in relationships. And she just blew me away. So she's Canadian.

Um, based in Toronto and spends a lot of time, uh, also in Austin and, um, the personal development school is, is the program that she's created, but she has a PhD. And countless certifications in things that I really love, like neurolinguistic program. We talk about NLP right off the top. somatic experiencing, internal family systems, hypnosis, all of the body-based work that I just think is so critically important in this world of doing.

important work and understanding why we've never been so disconnected. Because imagine, I mean, we're neurobiologically wired for connection. The hardest thing we will do is look at each other. And the question is why? And I think Thais answers this so beautifully. And she talks a lot about this thing in this episode. You'll hear her talking a lot about core wounds. And it is...

it's a term that, you know, often is used in therapeutic circles to really understand about like, you know, what keeps us from staying connected with other people. And we all have it. We all have some sense of a, some sort of a core wound. Some of them are very deep. Some of them are just surface, but the more we understand about our own experiences, the more we're better able to show up fully in our current relationships and how she unpacks us in this. I want you to listen to her five.

pillars because I think I've never thought about it the way that I thought about it. Think about it now after meeting this woman. So dive in. I cannot wait to hear your feedback on this episode. Like, subscribe, do all the things so you don't miss another one. But this is one that I want you to share far and wide because I think this is the information I was hoping we were going to pull out in this season. this is a good one my friends stay tuned

Okay. Listen, you amazing humans. Welcome back. Welcome in. I've been thinking about... this interview for some time now and I'm so excited to introduce you to Tyese Gibson um there is a she has a PhD uh and over 13 certifications in modalities like c and she's gonna explain this cbt nlp somatic experiencing here's why i loved her okay you know if you've been around here long i talk a lot about relationship and attachment and trauma how trauma can mess all of that up and

really that a secure and safe nervous system is really the best predictor of overall mental health. And when I was reading Dr. Gibson's work, I was like, this is phenomenal. Also, you were on the Ed Milet Show. and that's marty's boyfriend so um she read that and oh also you're cassie campbell's second cousin oh also you played soccer for team ontario also your sister's the ceo of the personal development school you're a badass

And also you have Jesus on your side. You got PhD in pastoral counseling. Like, could you get any better is the question right now. Huh? Tell me. Tell me about the whole podcast. I can tell you're just going to make me laugh the entire time. Come on. could you get any cooler so like tell tell me all the things like take it from the top how did you why is this such a passion for you how are you sort of invested your whole life in really talking a lot to people around this place of

How do we be better humans? Because I went through so many of my own personal struggles, honestly. And I think that... From a very young age, there was definitely a lot of attachment trauma. So I definitely grew up as a disorganized attachment style myself and just had a lot of chaos. And I think I was very sensitive and sort of absorbed a lot of the chaos that was going on around me and in my home.

Um, and I was always wondering like, why does it have to be like this? Like there must be a better way. And I guess to make like a very long story short at the peak of my own experiences of struggling. of you know really trying to break some bad habits in my life and to change the way i showed up in relationships and just feeling like it was so futile like just feeling like i would try and try and just keep repeating the same patterns somebody actually came to me and they said

oh, well, your conscious mind can't outwill or overpower your subconscious mind. And as somebody who had told myself I was going to change myself and change things for years and just kept repeating the same habits, it was like somebody just gave me this meal ticket to... understanding something struggling with your conscious mind can't override your up your unconscious mind is that right

Exactly. So, so I'll put, I want you to go, so don't lose your train of thought, but just think about this. Like you can't will yourself to be better, to do better, to smarten up, to stop being so reactive or sensitive or. connected to the wrong people.

Like you just can't. And I think we try so hard, particularly from a strictly cognitive behavioral perspective, just change your thoughts and your behaviors will follow. Just change your behaviors and your thoughts will follow, which is such bullshit. And so I love that. Tell me, tell me, yeah, keep going because I think that was.

So pointed. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. And so, you know, there was this, so I started learning a little bit more about the subconscious mind and honestly became like pretty obsessed with understanding it. Did like a year long certification in hypnotherapy. you know, did a whole bunch of NLP stuff and just really tried to understand like what's going on while going down. I was like, I think doing my undergrad in psych at the time. And

I started learning very early on into my like more traditional form of education that, wait, there's so much more like to your point, right? You know, CBT sort of targets the conscious mind. But if you learn how the subconscious mind works, you can actually use.

techniques to drive the concepts of cognitive behavioral therapy down to your subconscious mind where you can actually rewire our patterns and then yes our behaviors can actually change but without the subconscious reprogramming component it can really sort of fall on deaf ears like we can

be trying to do things and telling people things. And it can just be something that only targets the conscious level of mind. But if we look at so many of our problems and challenges in life, I think so many people can relate to on a small or large scale. You know, the conscious mind says, I'm going to.

get clean and get sober and then we see individuals going through the same old patterns of addiction or alcoholism and it's like the subconscious mind is going back through the same old habits and patterns that it's built as escapism or to bring relief or we can see on small

cases somebody can say I'm gonna quit eating chocolate or I'm gonna have a healthier lifestyle as my New Year's resolution and then we say we're gonna do it and we go back down the same path and those same patterns and it's because until we make something actually habitual drive it into the subconscious then we are very likely to keep repeating those same old behavioral patterns and there's reasons for it so a lot of my journey was really first about myself like

How do I create actual change in my own life personally? So take me through that just a little bit. So like when you say, you know, it was really tricky. I know that, you know, you and your sister have a very connected relationship now. Was there family systems trauma? Like what did that look like? look like for you growing up?

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to like blow up my family's spot too much because I love and respect them and have a lot of good connection to them. But my parents were under a really, really difficult relationship to say the very least. um, you know, just, you know, 17 plus year divorce and there was jail time and there, you know, just like a whole bunch of really chaotic stuff. And, um, that so many people can align with.

right you know when when we're like yes you know we don't talk about it a lot but you know dead I don't know who, but somebody spends time in prison. We've been separated as a family. You know, we think about divorces increased in our country, in Canada in particular, by 33% since the beginning of the pandemic. And so there's so many of those very fundamentally...

traumatizing things, and I don't use that word lightly, that happens to kids these days that we often... sort of overlook i think right like kids are resilient kids will do and they are that's true but i think oftentimes unless we sort of ask what happened

it becomes really difficult to sort of figure out what we do with that. And, you know, I don't know what your question, your answers to this all the time, but people say this to me all the time. Does it come back to your childhood every time? And I say, yes.

Yes, it does. So I, you know, I asked that question just, you know, sort of certainly not to be invasive, but to just be like so many times we do come even, you know, not even, but when we do work of serving other people, we carry our own stories. And it's so critical to know that, hey? Exactly. And so...

That was definitely a big part of it is I just grew up with a lot of chaos and there was a lot of dysfunctional reasons why things happened and unfolded the way that they did and a lot of sort of broken trust and a lot of big inconsistency. So I grew up with a very fractured.

baseline of what trust meant and a very fractured baseline of what safety meant in relationships and so going into my adult life you know actually before i was fully an adult i i um personally, and this is its own long story, but struggled with opiate addiction after knee surgery.

And so I went down a path of really struggling there. And that was really why the conscious versus subconscious mind played such a role because I had spent so much time being like, I'm going to change my behaviors. I'm going to get clean. I'm going to stop using. I'm going to. And you totally wanted to. Isn't this the truth?

Exactly. Like addicts, you know, whenever I've worked with somebody, I mean, we often talk about, you know, this concept around here. Johan Hari talks a lot about, you know, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. Because so often, you know. people get so frustrated when their loved one, you know, the father of their children, their mother, you know, seemed to choose something over them, right?

substance of some sort, right? But I love your point, right? Even if you don't want to so bad to the core of you, oftentimes there is underlying issues that really sort of pull you in a direction that you're not even conscious of. Exactly. And for me, that was that. I just noticed that as soon as I was using painkillers, it numbed pain. And I had a lot of, you know, on a daily basis, everything felt so chaotic at home and scary and confusing that it was like, whoa, my life is easier like this.

Something, you know, it just felt like everything was easier to manage. And so that quieted the noise. Well, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And found some peace and relief and, you know, these things. And so it's funny because these patterns that we judge as negative consciously often have.

subconscious benefits and clearly from a conscious mind perspective you have the drawbacks far outweigh the benefits and all the chaos that can ensue after that but at the time it's like oh the subconscious sees it as this this you know relief piece that we're getting and that's the condition programming that goes in there and that's what we often hold on to because that's what's been habituated so for me I was like I am going to like I

got a soccer scholarship and went off to school. And I'm sure on the outside, my life looked like I was doing okay. But you know, you see this all the time. You said you have a background in sports psychology. Like I'm sure you saw this with athletes all the time. Like a lot of athletes are struggling with big inner issues.

And everything looks great on the outside, but there can be some real stuff going on behind the scenes. And that was definitely my experience. So, you know, I tried a whole bunch of the sort of traditional ways of doing things, did inpatient rehab, outpatient rehab. and went to a meetings any meetings and it didn't um nothing really stuck and obviously at the age like 18 19 i wasn't really like putting the work in either um but

When I heard somebody say, oh, your conscious mind cannot will, your subconscious mind, it was like, oh, there must be something there. So I was like, give me everything I can learn. Because after being sick and tired and being sick and tired, I was like, let me dive into this.

ultimately really understanding what subconscious trauma I was still carrying, what my big core wounds were, learning to really recondition those things at the subconscious level, taking actually... forms of cognitive behavioral therapy but then applying principles of neuroplasticity and hypnosis to actually understand how i can drive these things into creating new deeper patterns and then moving into other things like learning my needs learning to develop actual boundaries in my life learning

system regulation work being able to regulate myself all of these things were so revolutionary for me and like actually helped me achieve such a sense of not just sobriety but actually peace and well-being that I had never really experienced that I was at like 22 years old trying to tell everybody I knew under the sun.

While I was still in school, I was like, I was giving free workshops at the library. Ooh, mama got a little knowledge. Now she thinks, you know, isn't that true though? Like when you find something that just sort of speaks to yourself. soul, you also don't want to keep that tight, right? Like you're just like, this is amazing. And I mean, you say it so perfect. So in your book, your book, Learning Love.

You say 95% of your thoughts and behaviors originate in your subconscious mind. Your thoughts and consequently your actions are predetermined by the programs that run within your subconscious. These... Programs are the result of your childhood conditioning and any significant moment or event that shifted your perceptions. Until they are examined, uprooted, and updated, they may be having a negative impact on your daily life. I love that.

that line because you just really summarized I think so well what most of that book is about you just sort of said like this is the deal we have to take a look at that so tell me how these deeply integrated experiences of our life show up in our consciousness and in our relationships.

Yeah, so there's five major pillars I like to think of when we're trying to really reverse engineer these things. The first one is one of the most impactful, and it's really our core wounds. And so our core wounds are these big fears. If people are less familiar with this concept, you can sort of think about it as, you know, if you go into the forest and you see a bear, what does your mind do? It remembers that experience. It stores it very strongly and it stores it with negative emotion intact.

and we are reprojecting if we had to walk into the forest the next day we think oh my gosh what if the bear is there and we reproject the likelihood of the threat as a means to keep ourselves safe so we go through an uncomfortable experience even if we survive and run away from the bear

And then we give it meaning. I am unsafe in the forest. And then when we go back into the forest or into similar circumstances, we reproject the potential of that same threat occurring. And it's a survival mechanism. Right. When we go through and we're not actually in this world where we're trying to survive predators out in the wild.

And instead, it's things like I'll be abandoned in relationships or I'll be betrayed by everybody I know or I'm not good enough or unworthy or people are going to think I'm bad or I'm going to be trapped or helpless or powerless. Instead, those are other examples. of our major core wounds that we have painful childhood experiences that we can't make sense of.

We store them with negative meaning and we constantly reproject the potential of that threat occurring again so that we can try to protect ourselves from it. And well, revival perspective, it makes sense. At a deeper level, it causes us to actually just ruminate about a lot of these things over and over again and increase the likelihood that some of these things might occur.

Got it, got it. So like a core wound might be a really bad breakup. Something that, you know, you sort of like encoded that you just really stayed stuck in that space, right? Like a divorce, like getting cut from the soccer team. Like are those examples of potential core wounds or do they always involve a relationship?

um no those are examples of experiences that would create core wounds so so a divorce if people will interpret the painful experience differently so if somebody goes through a bad divorce some people will say i'm alone i'll be alone forever i'm abandoned i'm unloved um other people might say, you know, thank God I'm out of the relationship because I was trapped and now I'm free, right? So we'll give.

Painful meaning to things based on, you know, the way we're interpreting the experience. And that's really what creates a core wound. And there's 18 major ones, but they really are things like I'll be abandoned, alone, excluded, disliked, rejected, not good enough, unworthy. Bad, betrayed, trapped, helpless, powerless, unsafe is a really big one for a lot of people. Disrespect.

So we'll see that these are the things, these core wounds are the things that create our biggest triggers in our adult lives. Got it. And what I love... What I love about this process is that it is so true because every experience can be encoded differently. And oftentimes we say this, well, you know, this police officer was at the same scene and how come he didn't encode it this way? And she did, you know, two kids in the same family that go through the same divorce or have this.

same parents have entirely different experiences. And so sometimes we really assign you as struggling because you did this, you had this experience, but I really love that differentiation between it's not what happened to you. It would happen. It's what happened inside of you as a result of what.

happened to you. You know, that sort of conversation, Gabor Mati talks about that all the time, right? That that's where the core wounds sort of initiate. Okay. So that's pillar one. What's pillar two? Yeah. And sorry, just to add one last thing in there.

It's really what it is. It's the meaning we give to the experience. It's how we perceive it and then store it. And then it stays there subconsciously. And it becomes, unfortunately, a part of our identity. We believe like I'm always going to be trapped or I'm always going to be not good enough or people dislike me. And so I keep thinking.

that and so those are the things that we carry and honestly you know i know you want to go to the next pillar but no no no i'm thinking you stay here all day i love it one last thing that's that's so interesting about this is that when we have these core wounds

we will tend to project them onto everything. And then the subconscious mind, although it's doing this to sort of protect us, the subconscious mind is also really habituated. So it really wants to maintain its comfort zone in a sense, right? So one of the most... interesting parts to me about our core wounds is that sometimes we'll see relationship dynamics where somebody feels like they are not good enough. Yeah.

And that core wound, because it's a part of their identity, it won't just go with them into their romantic relationships. It will go with them into their friendships or their workplace relationships because it's ultimately a relationship. have to ourselves right it's ultimately that that we're carrying and then what's really interesting

is because the subconscious wants to maintain its comfort zone, we're actually very likely to continuously invest in people who will continue to make us feel the same way. Right. We seek and find it. We're looking for confirmatory bias. We're not very good at like, huh, that doesn't fit.

This feller didn't leave me for, you know, my whole marriage and he's pretty committed to me. But the story is he will. And oh, look, there he did. Oh, look. And you're right. You sort of then find the people that meet that bias, right? We tend to be like, oh, this feels...

It's comfortable to me. This feels right to me. And oh, look at the confirming bias. It did. Oh, see, I knew it. Right. But we sort of really create that. I got it. OK. core wounds are really fucking crazy hey like huh like and we all have them everybody has a core wound is this true oh yeah everybody has poor wounds of course some people have them more than others and i like to think of them in frequency and intensity like okay

Somebody who grew up in a pretty stable household, maybe got bullied for part of the year a little bit one year because they had a funny haircut. They might have a smaller core wound that I'm rejected or I'm not good enough. But if you had parents who were both, you know.

not sober and using substances and they were never there and you know they were always so critical and harsh and cruel in their behaviors you're going to see a whole different intensity of those core wounds and more frequency because the subconscious mind really stores everything it's kind of like a warehouse and we consolidate memories over time and we can actually misremember things but we store a lot of things by emotional association so i almost like to think of our trigger

you know as an analogy as you know you have an experience in your daily life and let's say somebody makes you feel not good enough because they're being really critical and your conscious kind of communicates with your subconscious mind in essence and says you know what what experiences have we felt like of being not good enough before and it's almost like the subconscious mind opens the filing cabinet of all the pre-existing emotions and experiences and floods them to the surface

And now we're experiencing when we're triggered the conscious mind's objective experience of feeling somebody could just criticize me now and maybe that didn't feel good.

combined with all of the subconscious pre-existing emotion that was stored there of all the times we felt like that prior. And so that's part of how a trigger is working. We're experiencing not just the emotion in front of us now, but the combination of all the past painful experiences that are unresolved in association with that emotion because your subconscious is very much this association making machine.

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You know, it's I love this because it's so true. You know, when somebody says to me, you know, I don't understand why the smell of gasoline debilitates me because it's just gas or, you know, police officers say this all the time to me about Christmas lights. It's just a Christmas.

Christmas light, right? But every time that Christmas light means every time they've had to give a death notification on Christmas Eve or Christmas day, it's so much, it lands in the body so much heavier, yeah? And so it's often those connections that are made of those experiences at Christmas light.

is a Christmas light is a Christmas light. You know, it doesn't have the capacity to kill you or hurt you or put you in a state of like, let's run there as a bear. But somehow it does because there is that connection in your body. The body keeps the score. Hey, you and Bessel van der Kolk might probably are best friends. Yeah. Yeah. I love his work. I actually don't personally know him at all, but...

But I lie all the time. I'm like, yes, of course, best. Let's call him best, best. Yeah. But again, it's like, it's so true. Okay. I, that is so fascinating. And, and another pillar. Tell me, tell me the second one.

Yeah, so the next big pillar is our needs. And so much of the healing process when it comes to like really the connection, the relationship we have to ourselves is a lot of times people don't realize what they're needing in relationships. And there's this concept and it's a great concept and I'm super pro.

Dr. Gary Chapman, he has the book, The Five Love Languages. And, you know, a lot of people are super familiar. And, you know, we've got like quality time and words of affirmation and acts of service and gifts and physical touch. But our needs are a much deeper way that we are going to give and receive love than just our five love languages. And you can think of a really obvious example. I'll share a personal one.

i'm a big quality time person i really love people that's my biggest love language i like to sit down have a real conversation really connect get to know people um and i have a big need for emotional connection so if we take the idea of quality time But the need for emotional connection, if I spend quality time watching Netflix with somebody or television versus quality time meeting the need for emotional connection by having a deep conversation and asking questions and being present.

with each other. is going to be so much bigger in terms of my capacity to feel loved and connected to somebody. And so I like to think of the love languages as like the umbrellas. Yeah, simplified. Yeah, but the needs we have are actually what would hit really deep. And so much of healing actually first becomes let's learn our own needs and how to meet those needs in the relationship with ourselves. Because when we can do that, we can now effectively self-soothe.

And it has a huge impact on our ability to self-regulate. And then when we can do that, it kind of goes hand in hand with the third pillar, which is once we know what we actually need. Now we can communicate those needs to people in our lives so we can be loved in the way that we need from others. Because something we're all generally doing is we tend to project from our perception. I used to, before I knew a lot about needs.

And I was starting my, my growth and healing journey. I was obsessed with like reading books, like just obsessed. And every Christmas I would give people books about personal growth and healing and psychology. And I would be like, this book's going to change their fricking life. And then, you know, a month would go by, but did you read the book? No.

read the book? No. And I would feel like, well, my God, what do you mean? But what I realized is that I was trying to love from my own need. I had a big need for personal growth. And that wasn't necessarily giving love in the way that somebody else needed. And that's sort of a guest idea, right? We can look at that. So our needs are so much more impactful. And for people who are less familiar with needs, needs are things like I need to be.

accepted. I need to be seen. I need somebody to be present with me. I need somebody to be encouraging or validating. I need somebody to respect my need for freedom or autonomy or independence. And again, these are differences for different types of personalities, of course. a need for novelty or growth or challenge or depth or intimacy. Like these are the types of needs we would see.

when we can really learn what ours are and then learn the people in our lives. I mean, this has such a huge impact on our ability to really strengthen relationships. love and be loved. Oh my gosh. Okay. So question, a couple of questions about the communication of those needs. So one is certainly they are, they would be influenced by your core wounds.

your experiences, what has happened, you know, so like if I'm somebody that really needs freedom or autonomy, you know, might be really tightly connected to the fact that I don't know that I can fully trust, even if I've done my work, that I'm not going to end up alone. So I am going to create the sense this is what I need to be able to feel regulated enough. Now, I got insight in terms of why I'm doing that, but I'm still doing that. Is that sort of like, you know, is that one?

take on you know how we get to know our needs and why they become so important to us i love this question so it's such a good question um So I always say that we have needs that are connected to our core wounds. So exactly to your point, some people have needs that are like,

I need freedom because I have a core wound of being trapped. You know, I'm trapped. Big core wound. I felt that my whole childhood. Oh my gosh, God forbid somebody makes me feel like that again. Or like you said, like core wound of I will be betrayed. I can't trust.

So I don't want anybody to infringe on that or, you know, and so you'll see needs that are very much connected to core wounds, but we'll also just have needs that are connected to things that we saw a small absence of, but built positive emotional associations too. So for example, somebody who's like securely attached, had a pretty healthy childhood, maybe they found in different areas of their life that they were missing a little bit of, you know, freedom or autonomy or something like that.

And they saw that that was really positive. Maybe they had a role model or somebody out in the world that they were like, oh, that person, you know, they express their freedom and autonomy and that looks really cool. And so it can also just be, it doesn't have to be like we have these deep core wounds per se.

a lot of the times for people it really is but we can also just have a little bit of an absence of something that was missing from the basic needs that we have as a person and we see oh my gosh that looks really positive so i feel this void

And wherever we have a void, the subconscious mind is generally trying to equilibrate. It's trying to create a sense of homeostasis by giving to us whatever we feel like is in absence. And so what ends up happening is we'll go into a little bit of overdrive to meet those things and it will create this extra emphasis. or value around those particular topics or ideas.

Okay, so let me clarify this for a little bit because I'll use my own life as an example. One of the things, so I hear you also talking about corrective experiences, right? Which I think is so critically important because I think in this world of psychology, we get bogged down in like...

Like if you've had a fucked up childhood, you're screwed for life, right? So oftentimes that's been where ACES scores have fallen short, where we can sort of like that's the adverse childhood experiences stuff that I've talked a lot about around here. It's only... half of the story. But we've put a lot of emphasis on, you know, ACEs scores for a long time. And I think it's only half the story. So when I think about, you know, for example, if my core wound...

is I need to be really independent. So I watched my parents' marriage dissolve. I know that my mom... You know, my dad sort of left my mom. And so my mom was like, why didn't I go to school? Why didn't I become more, you know, look at me now. He gets to go. He made the money. He goes and hears me. I have to stay and look for the children. And so part of my core wound was really around experiencing the divorce of my parents.

of like, I will, the potential is I could always be left, right? So I'm going to take charge of my own life. I'm not only going to get my master's degree, I'm going to get a PhD, and then I'm going to be able to speak all over the world and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that.

My corrective experience in some ways to sort of challenge that is I've had beautiful couples in my life that have really sort of indicated to me the necessity of communication and staying connected. And that is actually possible to have a beautiful relationship with a human being and that you can.

stay connected. Right. And so there's so many people I admire in that way, um, personally in my life. And so I'm like, okay, I think I can do both of that. I'm very aware that I'm a, that I'm independent and strong. And you know, when I married my husband, it was like, don't fucking stop me. Cause if this is your plan, you know, we're not, it's not.

going to be and so he loves that about me but I also desperate I'm also desperate to create that sense of family and connection that I felt I lost in my adolescence you know based on what I saw was possible in other people so there is this sense of

And I just want to make sure I get this right. So, you know, your core wounds can define some of how you show up. And when you have knowledge about them, you know, you can communicate those effectively. This is probably in my bones because of the way that I sort of, I'm not.

so sure that won't happen all the time, even though you can tell me they will, and we've committed and I got the ring and I've gave you my vows and all those things. I'm still not sure to the core of me that I might not have to only lean on myself in this world. But I also can be very aware that Because I've done that work, I think I'm capable of committing fully. So know that I'm sort of in both of those places when I, if I've sort of looked at number one.

didn't some work on number two, then being able to communicate that sort of gives you the skill in number three. Is that how that, like, is it kind of like working in a... That's a good question. And that was such a powerful share too. And you know what's so interesting is that they tend to lean into each other for sure. Like they have this thread that carries them through.

um but and we can maybe talk about this at the end too but one of the biggest focus areas that i go into is actually how we can recondition our subconscious core wounds so we're not born with them they actually get conditioned into us through repetition and emotion which is what fires and wires neural pathways and we can leverage that understanding to actually recondition those core wounds and then what you'll see

is probably what's part of your experience, which is that you, having done the work and being so wise and involved in this field anyways, learned, okay, these are my needs. I need the freedom and independence. I don't want anybody to stop me. I want to feel like I can do my thing in the world. And so you honor those needs through your own emotional literacy and self-awareness, and then you communicated those needs. And when you do that, they do because they often go hand in hand.

um they do have this sort of reverse impact so let's say you you grow up and that's what you see in your family but then later on into life you're like well i really need my freedom and independence and autonomy So I'm going to communicate that to my husband. I'm going to honor that in myself. I'm going to take full control of that. That's important to me. I'm going to share that with the people in my life that I love. And now what happens?

is you actually, as a byproduct of that, get repetition and emotion of people respecting that about you in your life. And so it positively reinforces that you are seeing that you are loved, and that actually has a bit of an impact on the original core wound itself not being so strong. However, at the same time, when you were saying like,

At my core of me, I'm still not 100% sure. To me, that sounded like, oh, there might be a little bit of a core wound left if you never worked on the core wound directly. And what that would do is feel like you have this deep sense of peace. Like I really can rely on people. I can count on people.

to stay and also still have that freedom need that's been a part of your personality that you can still honor and feel connected to and allows you to do the work that you're doing in the world. Ah, so you can do both. Aaron's going to be so excited about this. Yeah, because I mean, I'll be honest with you, like that still is very deep in the way that I think about things, right? Like I just, this is, I mean, a lot of the conversations we've had is really like, no, no, no, this is my company.

Like we're building it together for our family system, but don't fuck with me. Like this, no, this is not, we didn't, nah. And I'm so interested, as is he, in why I'm so adamant about that.

Right. Like what is so clear? And so then I get on my feminist soapbox and I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? Our dads never had to have this conversation and men in this world never have to like you. We are the first generation of women that are CEOs of our own company and that are building the things and like, just give me that space. I've never had to ask that of you. And so I find that really interesting, but really then, okay, so where does that come from?

What is that about? What is, you know, where does that land is something I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about. Do you want to dive into it on the topic for a second? Yeah, I really do. That's so interesting. One of the first things I always say to people just as a side note is you can tell the difference and you'll, you'll notice it between something that comes from truth or something that comes from fear.

truth it's like I'm honoring this in myself it feels good like to love our you know you've children I think you said and to love your kids that's truth. Like nobody has to ask you to show up and love your kids. It feels good. It feels natural. Like you can feel into, I'm going to show up because I care. And it's, you know, it's not coming from, Oh, I better love my kids or something bad will happen. Or I better, you know, it's,

It's truth, it's authentic. Then we have things that are motivated by fear. You know, I better make sure nobody messes with my company. I better make sure that nobody and you can feel that it's actually coming from a little bit of lack or or discomfort first. Yeah, it's very different. Yeah.

And so, you know, then we look at, okay, well, what is this, that discomfort? So if I were to ask you, you know, if you could sort of summarize in one sentence, like the fear that's there or what it's around, is it around like your company being infringed upon? your freedom being infringed upon. How would you summarize that in one sentence? Betrayal. Betrayal. Yeah. Like it's clear to me, like how can you, can you ever truly trust anybody?

Yeah. And, and, and that's the, that's the thing to me, you know, I, I just think like, even though we say that, and I feel that to the core of me, well, we always believe that to be true. So I better just watch it.

Okay, so perfect. So if somebody wasn't as aware as you, they might be like, okay, I'm scared that somebody will mess with my company. And I would say, okay, well, what do you make it mean? Or what are you afraid is happening if somebody is messing with your company? And then people would arrive at the courtroom. They'd be like, oh, it means I'm big.

And so, you know, if you feel comfortable sharing, I'm assuming there was some betrayal that you saw in your family because of the divorce that you mentioned and the way you saw your family dynamic.

interact and your mother and father. Yeah. So then you have that core wound. We can see it. It's part of our identity at a subconscious level all of a sudden. So now what's really cool is we can actually recondition this stuff and this. To me, like out of anything has been so life changing for me, I can't even like put it into words. So there's a three step system or tool for really targeting those core wounds. And, you know, it's called auto suggestion.

It's sort of based on principles of neuroplasticity and hypnosis. But I never loved the power dynamics of hypnosis where it's like teach a man to fish instead of give the man a fish kind of thing. So I like to teach people how we can recondition our own subconscious mind without, you know, hypnosis or having to go see somebody. So the first step to reprogramming a core wound is to find it and find its opposite.

So obvious example, I will be betrayed. I can trust. Okay. So that's step one. Step two is, you know, I've never been a believer in affirmations because affirmations are our conscious mind speaking to our conscious mind. And the reason for this is that the conscious mind speaks language. The subconscious mind speaks only in emotions and images. So if somebody says to you, if I were to say to you, for example,

Whatever you do, do not think of the pink elephant. You know, you probably flashed the image of the pink elephant. Yeah. And it's because your conscious mind understands do not, but your subconscious processes very quickly and speaks in emotions and images, sees the image of the pink elephant before you can try to stop yourself or not do it.

you know what's interesting is that when we have core wounds they're not conscious they're not nobody's waking up saying today i'm going to tell myself that i'm going to be betrayed a bunch of times or worry about it and see how i feel like we're not choosing these things they're happening on autopilot they're automatic because they're pre-existing programs

So we have to speak to our subconscious mind in emotion and imagery. And what's really cool about this is that the best way to do this is through memories. Because if you look at what a memory is, it's really a container for emotions and images.

If you were to say your favorite childhood memory, and let's say your favorite childhood memory was you playing on the playground with your friends, you would see the images of the slide and the images of the playground and of your friends running around. And we've all seen people when they recount old stories or memories, they tell the story and they laugh or they smile because the emotion is still intact.

And so what we do is it takes repetition and emotion to fire and wire neural pathways. So we need repetition of emotions and images. So we were repeatedly speaking to our subconscious mind and firing and wiring in something new. And so what we do in step two is after we found in step one the core wound and its opposite, I will be betrayed, I can trust, we now go, what are pieces of evidence or memory for how I've been able to trust before?

And when people have actually showed up to, you know, showed up for me in a way when I didn't even expect it. And so what we look for is we look for memories to support the new idea in step two. And we need 10 because we need repetition. And so you might say, you know what? When I told somebody a boundary, they really respected it. Or when I was really going through a hard time and needed to lean on my husband or a friend or whatever it is, we get specific pieces of memory.

Because there are emotions and images that are speaking to our subconscious mind. So now we're firing and wiring neural networks that actually can go down to the subconscious level. And step three, we record it somewhere, like into our phone. And we listen back for 21 days because research into neuroplasticity shows that it takes at least 21 days to really create strong enough neural networks that they're likely to really be solid.

And when we listen back to the new evidence of the new idea I can trust, here's the evidence of how people have actually showed up in trustworthy ways. When we listen back for 21 days, it takes two minutes in the morning or evening, very easy to do. And we try to really feel about it and see the images as much as we can of those moments. And to add a little bonus in there, if we do it in the first hour that we wake up or last hour before we go to sleep, we are much more suggestible.

We're more in alpha brainwave mode, which makes us more likely to be able to absorb the suggestions we're giving to our own subconscious mind. So in summary, the three steps, limiting belief in its opposite or core wound in its opposite. 10 pieces of evidence evidence to support the new idea listen back first thing in the morning for 21 days and really feel about it and see it and it has profound impact like we wouldn't even believe

I do believe, and profound impact is phenomenal. So what I have done in my practice for years, and the only thing that has changed anything, so I work with severe PTSD. That's my favorite thing with police officers to do. EMDR. has been the thing that has changed everything for me.

Right. And so it is all of the things that we were talking about today. Really, how do you get to those core beliefs? We can call them core wounds, but it's really that idea of like, you know, what is deeply ingrained in the way that we do. And it's so funny when you look at a list of things.

will viscerally respond to certain statements and others won't land for you right like i am unsafe or i am not loved or i am you know whatever abandoned uh you know rejectable like whatever those things some of them you know we'll go through them as a human i'll be like yeah

yeah no oh fuck yeah that's super big for me you know and then other people be like no and so like this is my favorite thing to do in therapy which is like you know you just watch people respond to those things and they're like yep yep no yep yep Yeah. And they're like, no, I'm like, yeah, that's where we're going to land. Because you almost can't not do it. And so I really love that. And I am going to find my 10 memories and record it and go back 21 days because I think that's just so true.

Like, even as I speak to you, you know, sort of about that betrayal piece, it is still like, I don't, I know so consciously the work, the life that, you know, I can see to be true. But I, to my core, to my... being, can also find all the times where people have betrayed me. And even when they didn't, they needed to leave for whatever reason, it is in my mind a betrayal.

right? And so it's the story that we tell ourselves based on the things that live in our body. And so I love, love that, love that. Good God, you're amazing. Okay.

I want to make sure we close the five pillars too. So we got core wounds, our needs, communicate those needs. And then what's four? Regulate our nervous system. My favorite. So, you know, it's such an important part of healing. I think it's something that's so underrated, but it's now definitely becoming more mainstream. I think in a lot of ways. Yes. Due to the work of like Dr. Stephen Porges or, you know, a whole bunch of people out there.

But basically, the whole idea, just to keep it super simple for people listening, is that you want to pick one thing you can do, ideally once, if not twice a day. um and we want to do this for at least 21 days because again we're trying to habituate because when we habituate something it makes it subconscious neural pathways are kind of like muscles like they atrophy over time so if we stop using ones that we don't want

they will shrink right just like if we stop working on our bicep muscle it will shrink and so you know we're trying to get ourselves out of this chronic fight or flight mode if we came from that in any kind of capacity and more into rest and digest mode parasympathetic nervous system mode to keep it super simple again first hour that we wake up or last hour before we go to sleep

We're producing more alpha and theta brain waves. Our brain and body are more open to suggestion. And so what we want to do is pick an easy habit that we can stick to ideally for at least 15 or 20 minutes. And this can be a body scan. This can be breath work, meditation, mindfulness practice, anything that is getting you present in your environment, teaching your body to slow down and teaching your body to get out of this chronic doing mode that we are so often.

because doing can just perpetuate this need, this idea that I'm unsafe, I have to protect, I have to keep doing things 24-7, 365. No, let's practice being. When I'm being, I'm actually showing to my body. You are safe. It's safe to just be present, to just be in this moment. And over time, the act of doing that through mindfulness or meditation or whichever strategy we choose to implement.

The practice of doing that teaches our body that we can slow down, we can get into a safer mode of being. And as we practice that daily across 21 days, we are more likely to actually move into parasympathetic nervous system mode. And so again, Better if we're in a suggestible state, but as we're doing those things together, and by the way, when we talked about needs, meeting my own needs and communicating needs, again, to make it subconscious, to make it your new normal.

21 days, habituate it, practice it every day, communicate a need every day. You know, as we're doing things, they get really patterned into our new state of being for the future. I really love that because I think so often, you know, we talked about, we're the first generation of parents of...

employers, employees that have this much access to each other. And so even some of the suggestions I, you know, easier than this, drop your shoulders, put the note on your computer, in your phone. Every time you think about it, your shoulders are up because it's ready.

to fight or flight. What you're not ready to do is tell your body it's safe. And so building that in, driving home one day a week in silence. You don't need another podcast. You don't need your playlist. All of those things that can just be... Because you know what is so scary to so many of us, me included, silent, right? When just being still, if I have something else to do, then I don't need to sink into my body.

Right. So, and we always have something else to do. We can scroll on Instagram or we can like do the next project or we can like pick up our kids or we need to do that or we need to do this. And then at the end of the day, when we kind of have some time to reflect, we watch Dateline, which does nothing but get your sister. I mean, now you're you just watched the girl die in Tallahassee, you know, like that did nothing to get you.

regulated right and then we people say to me all the time as a psychologist i don't know why i can't sleep are you kidding me your body thinks you're you and craig melvin have been solving murders for the last night Like, you're the problem because, you know, we have so much access to this, right? And so I just don't think we've even caught up.

We're moving beyond human scale in the way that we sort of introduce things and educate our people and, you know, just have access to everybody that I think, you know, this is just this work is just the most profound timing, you know, in terms of what's. fixing to be needed. Okay. So number five, regulate the nervous system is four and it's number five. Yeah. And I want to just add one thing that's so on point with what you just said.

is when we're watching television, we're also usually in a light trance. So we're actually in a very suggestible state. It's part of why people pay so much money for like Super Bowl commercials and stuff. If you've ever seen somebody and they're watching TV and you're like, hey, Bob.

And Bob's like just like in the television, like staring. Yeah, like my son this morning. Yeah. And you're like, Bob, Bob. And then finally he like snaps out of it. Television actually stimulates alpha brainwave production and is more likely to put you in a trance and more likely to make you suggest. to the messaging that you're getting. And so honestly, when people, it sounds funny, but when people are watching like horror movies right before bed every night as part, you know, or like.

Dateline NBC. Yeah. It actually like can really permeate the subconscious mind. Oh my God. That's probably why I think I could be a homicide detective because I'm right into Bosch right now. I'm like into the seventh season and I like think I could be the best fucking homicide detective of all time. like how hard can it be i mean i feel like i'm watching it every night before bed and i wake up just kind of thinking like no we should really think about this case anyway okay so um

That's so true. And like, so awesome. And like how often, you know, I often think about this, you know, the size of the beds that our grandparents slept in and the size of the bed that I sleep in with my personal husband. I mean, it's a king size bed. I don't even know where he is most of the time. And he's there watching. his show. I'm there watching my show. And we wonder why we feel lonely and disconnected, right? In addition to our

you know, core wounds, the things like the lack of need to communicate face-to-face because we can text and we can operate in so many ways. The idea, you know, one of my biggest concerns as a psychologist is certainly our... are increasing lack of ability to not only identify, but to face those core wounds.

because it really takes this personal connection, right? It really takes a conscious movement and we're becoming so, so sub, like we're, we're just sort of all floating a little bit. And so this just, you know, it concerns me wildly.

I'm interested in your, your take on that as well. Yeah, I think that you're exactly right. I think that core wounds act as invisible walls between ourselves and other people because they're the threats that will project onto people. They're the things that even if somebody doesn't intend being that way at all, we'll say, well, this person could betray me in the future, right? And I've totally...

been there too that was a poor wound of mine you know I relate to that or the person's gonna abandon me and so now we're not connecting to the person and seeing them as they are we're seeing them as the potential threat that they bear and and you know I think it's so important to recognize those things and not just that internal work but as people are doing that 21 days of reprogramming and really diving deep into that i always advise people to like tell somebody you have that fear tell them hey

I'm afraid of trust being broken and let somebody know so that we're dispelling those, those invisible walls between ourselves and other people and letting people in. And you said earlier, like. you know loneliness is an epidemic and it absolutely is i think they hired like a loneliness minister and declared it an epidemic and there was a big study down i think it was julian holt in 2010 and it was they had over 300 000 participants And they they actually.

um paid attention to the impact of loneliness on physical health across a few decades and they equated it to like hey same thing as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day and actually a greater risk factor to your health and obesity um or alcoholism And I was like, what? Like, mind blowing. It's not just a feeling. It's not just a feeling. And so when we say things like Vivek Murthy, I always get that wrong. He's the Surgeon General of the United States of America, has written extensively.

about the loneliness epidemic because he says he's so clear about this right we're not in a mental health crisis we're in an understandable human response to a loneliness epidemic And the only way you heal attachment wounds or step into this unconscious place of how we operate in our bodies every day is bringing that into connection with other people.

or for sure yourself. And so when we stay numb in this place, you know, you can see the concern around the loneliness epidemic. So this has just been so, oh my God, you're beautiful. Okay. So I just want to hit five before I let you go. Cause I know your time is precious. Core wounds.

One last little tiny thing. The end of that study, the Julian Holt study, the end of that study was they said that the thing that led to the biggest shift in loneliness, I'm sure you probably talk about this in your show all the time, is

quality of relationships instead of quantity of relationships and really being able to be vulnerable with people and so that's why it's like hey share your core wounds know your needs share what you need from people learn what other people need all of those things require vulnerability and connection And then we regulate our nervous system. We get present with ourselves. We sink into our vulnerable selves and feel what's going on in our body.

And then pillar number five comes. But yeah, go ahead, go ahead. No, wait, I want to, now I want to interject. So I, but what I think about so much right now too is adult friendships. And in this process of the quality of relationship, you know, we often grow, particularly as women in this.

quantity space, right? I have so many friends and I have this one and I have this one and I have this one. And that's how we sort of judge our, you know, I have an 11 year old daughter. We have conversations about this all the time. Right. And.

I think that idea, the social reciprocity is the greatest predictor of longevity, not how many you have, but your capacity to deeply interact with people. And so I love that idea of like the quality of the relationship matters. And oftentimes, you'll see very wise women.

Maya Angelou talked about this often, about how that circle just became tighter and just much more connected as she aged. Because I think what's true is that, you know, we change the way what we need, you know, back to number two. It evolves. When we needed something very differently at 19 that we're going to need at 49, and the more conscious you are of those needs, I mean, whose job is that other than yours?

right? Because nobody can't figure that shit out on your own. And so like, I think it's just, it's just so brilliant to be able to be so tuned into that, that piece of it. Okay. um last meter is um boundaries Learning to have healthy boundaries. And the reason is that boundaries, you know, I think we think of them as being a separation, but boundaries really are a joining because if I, let's say you and I.

are living together and we're roommates for whatever reason. And, you know, we move into this space together. If I only show up and I'm only telling you what's going on inside of me when I'm having a great time and when I'm having a good day. I'm only ever giving myself the chance to connect to you in a conditional way, which means I only ever get the opportunity to feel like I can receive love.

conditionally and if we want to move the feeling and experience of being loved or connected to people around us friends family romantic partners you know

then we actually need to be able to show ourselves without so many conditions. Not always on our best behavior, not always when we want to say yes, not always compulsively saying yes to things in front of us, but actually the art of setting boundaries requires the art of being able to take our... into consideration and then from considering ourselves and being attuned to our own truth our own feelings our own authenticity

then be able to share that with other people. And sometimes that means saying no, because sometimes, as you've probably heard the expression, like sometimes saying no to somebody else is a yes to yourself, but also saying no to people allows yourself to be seen truly. Additionally and boundaries also, which are, this is such an interesting piece to me as somebody who also has done a lot of work on that betrayal wounding.

Something that was so powerful for me to learn is that as I did a lot of auto-suggestion and the core wound reprogramming on I will be betrayed or I can't trust, I also realized all the ways I betrayed myself by saying yes to things that were truly a no.

And all of those forms of people pleasing were me betraying my truth and my authenticity. And so boundaries help us reestablish deep trust within ourselves as well. And also allow us to give people the information they need to properly consider are true. And so it's such a building block of deeper connection, but also of healing.

I so agree. And I think there's such a misunderstanding around boundaries when, you know, we often get them confused with ultimatums. You know, this is my boundary. You can't do this in less or I don't like this. You know, you can't be in my house if you smoke. You can't do this. Boundaries are much more for you. than they are for them, right? I can only, I feel at my best when I say I can't come out two nights a week. I feel at my best when. And so when you, resentment is always my cue.

for when I have let myself down in my boundary, right? Like, of course I can show up and see, we can do a session at Sunday night at seven o'clock. Of course I will volunteer for these 67 things because I'm a member of the community and I'm in a privileged position. So of course I should be doing those things. I say yes to those things and I feel resentment, I have betrayed myself. And so...

it's like that's the little tip that I often think about because I think that boundaries work is so – there's not a lot of really great work around boundaries, you know, and I just really – I think that's a perfect area for your next book. So, okay, that's – last little thing yes of course thank you so much i'm like oh my gosh um so to make the boundaries subconscious sometimes people can have these these dynamics right of going

They know they don't set boundaries. They know that they're struggling with boundary setting and they know that they'd be better off if they finally did set boundaries and they're like, I'm a people pleaser. And yet they repeat the same behavior. And that's because we can have the conscious mind awareness, but until we actually ingrain it at the subconscious level, we won't find an actual shift or change in the pattern. So what I'll often advise to people to start setting boundaries is first.

We do exposure work basically on boundaries. We do repetition and emotion slowly but surely. Don't start setting boundaries with your boss that you think might have narcissistic personality disorder on day one. All of them have narcissistic personality disorder.

Because you're going to get scared. You're going to be like, that didn't go well. I hate boundaries. And a lot of times we actually learn to give away our boundaries because that was our best way of trying to adapt to a circumstance at the time. So if in childhood setting boundaries got you punished because you weren't allowed.

to say no to your caregivers and you got punished in some sort of more severe way you may have a belief that if i set boundaries i'm unsafe and so it's counterintuitive to our conscious mind's understanding because you know we think wait but boundaries are supposed to make us safe

Yeah, but you may not have been conditioned that way. And so I often advise people, ask yourself if you're really scared of setting boundaries. If I'm setting boundaries or if it's hard, if I set a boundary, what am I afraid will happen or what do I make it mean?

And that actually helps us pluck out what our core wound is around the boundary. Sometimes we're like, oh, I'll be abandoned if I set a boundary or I'll be unsafe or I'll be punished or I'll be, you know, betrayed by people because they'll think I betrayed them. So we can find the meaning of our core wound.

do the core wound reprogramming and then practice doing small incremental boundaries around comfortable safe people first so we're working out the muscle we get familiar and then over time we can actually gain a lot of momentum around our boundary setting and it can truly become our new normal. Oh my gosh, I love that. That is probably the clearest thing I've heard on boundaries for a very long time. If I set my boundaries, I will not...

it will make me unsafe. Obviously we're not going to set boundaries, right? Like really understanding that I think is so critical. Oh my gosh. Okay. We could do this for days. I, um, I so appreciated that. That was.

one of the best conversations i've had in a long time and i really hope um ties that you'll we can do this again because i really i love that you're amazing we're in toronto all the time so clearly we need to hang out um and and i wanted know how you got your email is so fucking big like that's also impressive and did you meet mel robbins i guess i was on with her i went to boston where she was and hung out with her and all that stuff yeah she was amazing get out

Yeah, yeah, it's fine. You just keep getting cooler. Okay, so I'm going to put everything where you need to find this beautiful soul in our show notes, of course. And thank you for teaching this community so much in this beautiful hour. It was just, it was such a gift. It was an honor. Thank you so much for having me. You are like the best podcast host ever. And you have questions and you're so knowledgeable and so fun and hilarious. Oh, no, you hang up first. Stop.

I love it. I love it. Oh my gosh. Okay. Everybody take care of yourself. Take care of each other. And, um, I cannot wait to meet right back here again next time. Unlonely Podcast is produced by three incredible humans, Brian Seaver, Taylor McGillivray, and Jeremy Saunders, all of Snack Lab Productions. Our executive producer, my favorite human on this planet, is Marty Piller. Soundtracks were created by Donovan Morgan. Unlonely branded artwork created by Elliot Cuss.

Our big PR shooters are Desvino and Barry Cohen. Our digital marketing manager is the amazing Shana Haddon. Our 007 secret agent from the Talent Bureau is Jeff Lonis. And emotional support is provided by Asher Grant, Evan Grant, and Olivia Grant. Go Liv! I am a registered clinical psychologist in Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information resources

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