On this episode, we'll hear from former executive director of the Disinformation Governance Board for the United States. One of the most important things for me when I was going through the worst of the online abuse that I experienced is the fact that I had a community behind me. And that's not something that just crops up overnight. You don't just happen into it. It was something that I built pretty deliberately, and I did that by supporting other women.
Other people whose work that I saw saw whether they were in my field, in an adjacent field, whether they were journalists. If I, for instance, saw breaking news in Ukraine and I wanted to share an article about it, I would look for a female journalist to share. Because we know from studies that women get retweeted, 50% less than men get retweeted. For instance, there's only 30% of the of users on Reddit are
women. So like, we need to, we need to gas each other up and amplify each other and that leads to friendship ships. A lot of my kind of people who are in my closest circles are people I met on Twitter, and a
lot of them are women. So making sure you're cultivating that community so that if you are having problems on online, you're not just relying on your family and friends who might be well-intentioned but might not get the Internet to the same extent you do that is so important having that support network. And then the final thing that I would say also, and this is for men and women who might be listening to you, is if you see bad behavior happening online, a report, it that does still
matter. It sends, you know, signals to the platforms that a certain account is behaving in a way that is potentially against the community standards. But B, think about saying something. And that can happen in one of two ways. You can say something directly to the person who's behaving badly, like, hey, this is not OK, what you're doing. And that might make people stop in their tracks and say like, oh wait a second, people are realizing that I'm being an
asshole. Or you can also send words of support to the person who is being attacked. And that really matters as well, because it it it means that you know, you know you've got people who are in your corner. And that matters so much when when you just feel like all of this horrible stuff is coming your way, to know that there are people who value you and value your input and value your
personhood. So those are three big tips that I think go beyond the obvious, but they they are so helpful when you are the person navigating a sea of abuse online. That was Nina Jankowitz, you're listening to On Cam Ready. On this episode, we have so much to talk about. But first, a really quick reminder for our listeners and a quick hello to all of our new followers, especially on YouTube.
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As I mentioned, Nina Jankowitz is the former Executive Director of the Disinformation Governance Board of the United States. You may recognize her from appearances on MSNBCCNN and other outlets. Some of you may remember her from when she appeared on TikTok singing a Mary Poppins song about disinformation, and then that video got used all over the Internet. She actually wound up filing a lawsuit against one Fox a defamation lawsuit.
It's something important to discuss, and we'll make sure we bring that up with her. And now here's Nina and Nina's with us. Now, Nina, why don't you give us a little update? What have you been up to? Oh, I'm working on a lot now, Jamie. I am working on 1/3 book that is about kind of a new civil resistance pact for the digital age, how we all get involved in politics and these really vitriolic, polarized times.
And I've got a new organization that I'll be able to say more about in a couple of weeks, but it's about protecting the information space ahead of our very, you know, pivotal election. You know, it's so important and it's so great to have a a female out front talking about disinformation. And I, you know, I talked about
your books in the intro. But what really resonates with a lot of people listening is how how much you've been able to accomplish the fact that you're now on your third book, you've stayed so niche focused, you've become such an expert on this topic. You know, whenever you're preparing for all of your media hits, you know, how do you really stay laser focused to provide such tremendous value on networks like MSNBCCNN, you name it?
Sure. I think one of the things that I've learned, particularly for cable news is that these interviews are really short most of the time, unless you have the luxury of of doing like a long Sunday show interview, right? You're you're talking about 5 minutes Max. And a lot of those hosts are pretty Gabby, so they're going to take up a lot of the time. So you need to be focused on three points that your audience can understand.
So I always try to write those down, even if it's just in the 30 seconds before, you know, we're on Cam. And. And and that really helps me make sure that I hit those points and that if I get a question that I don't necessarily know how to answer, I'm able to pivot back to those points. And the other thing that helps me do is make sure that it's accessible, right, Because a lot of the stuff that I deal with is
pretty technical. A lot of people say, oh, disinformation or cybersecurity or some of these things. You know, these are things that I don't really understand. And by keeping it to those three points, I'm able to really say these are, you know, things that you can understand. This is how I'm making it accessible for you. The. Listener I love that whenever you're asked to be on a show, do you find that they find you online, or are you pitching them?
Do you have a group behind putting you out there? Really. It's really interesting. You know, I had a guy, an older guy like 55 year old man come up to me probably in like 2018 or 2019 when I was doing a lot of hits, especially as we were headed toward the 2020 election. 00:06:46,600 And he was like it was your PR company and I was like you're looking at her and I changed that. I that's been the same for me
this entire time. I would say I especially, you know, from about 2020 to 2022, I was doing a lot of writing and that translated into a lot of TV hits and and other media hits. Things have, I would say, tanked a little bit since I resigned from from DHS. And that's that's twofold, right. Obviously some people in the media ecosystem trashed me to the extent where I think people only remember that when they think of my name. And that has toxified me a little bit.
And you know, I am navigating not only that situation but being a new mom. And so my baby was born three weeks after I resigned from DHS and I took some time off, understandably going through a traumatic experience. So navigating life as a new parent and so getting back into that ecosystem has been really difficult. And I'm working on different things now and so I'm not writing as much and that that has proved a little bit, a little bit hard to get back in there.
And so it's something I'm still out there for producers who are watching, right. I'm still an expert on Russia. I'm still an expert on Ukraine. I'm still an expert on on, you know, tech policy and social media. I happen to be talking a lot about online abuse and things like that right now. Deep fake porn, artificial intelligence, I'm experts in all of those things too. But it's it can be really hard to kind of assert your
expertise. But I was really lucky for a time because everything that I was an expert in was right at the top of the news. I was writing a lot about it. Twitter also really helped. And I just want to take a moment to say rest in peace because when I was out there tweeting, a lot of producers would see things, editors would see things and Commission me to write pieces. And it's kind of the circle, this kind of not even a vicious circle, a self enforcing circle when you get out there.
So, so it's been a little bit difficult, I'm not going to lie, but but I still love doing any media that comes my way because it allows me to connect with new and different audiences. Yes, and there's so much to unpack in this response. But I just want to start off by saying she is the prime example of what I say all of you thought leaders listening should try to be like. And here's why.
As you heard she said, she's putting herself out there, tweeting, writing, and she's getting attention from the press by putting her expertise on display online. By just doing that, you can really start to attract, right? And she has proven that over and over again. It's all about building that community. I mean, let's focus on that for a second. Like, when you started to tweet or when you started to write, what really kept you going? Was it the passion of it, the
topic? Or like, what did you how did you essentially figure out? OK, I'm on to something. I need to start writing about this on a regular basis. Or tweeting. Or yeah. For me, it was very focused on where I was in my life. So when I really started writing, I was living in Ukraine. It was 2016 and 2017. The topic of Russian interference was so, like, present to so many people. And I was living it right. I was in Kiev, I was working with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. There.
I saw a lot of stuff that that Americans weren't seeing, and I thought I had something to offer. So I started putting it out there. And from there, as you said, I kind of cultivated a community not only on social media and that was primarily Twitter back
then. But one thing that I, I tell all of like my mentees to do, and I would say this is important for anybody who's who's trying to cultivate more of a media presence as well, is keeping a running list of the producers and bookers and and editors that you're working with. And anytime you publish something, you blast it out to them. So I've gotten media hits that way. I back in, I want to say 2020, when the big protests in Belarus were happening.
I was one of the only people writing about Belarus. I I'm, I've got kind of a niche little experience with Belarus. And I wrote about about those protests and that got me a slot on Fareed Zakaria, right? Like because my newsletter had gone out to those producers. So cultivating that community and not just hoping that people are going to show up at your doorstep is really important. Of course, like, it takes a while to build up that list, but once you've got it, it's there.
And I still get, you know, outreach from the BBC. I still get I just had somebody from Scripps write to me before we came on today. So like that that stuff happens. 00:11:07,680 And once you're in a database, it turns out for a lot of producers, you keep coming up in that database, right? You're, you're tagged as, oh, here's my Russia expert or, you know, here's somebody who can talk about AI and they come back again and again. Yeah, it's it's so true. And that's how we met.
I mean, I reached out to her on Twitter and that's another thing to make, you know, a point about is, she replied. You know, so if you're going to put yourself out there, be there. Yeah, absolutely. And one thing I remember I I did a great program called Foreign Policy Interrupted, which was focused on women in in foreign policy and making sure that we got out there as experts.
And I think half the battle for, you know, cultivating relationships with producers is making sure that you reply, you reply quickly and if you can't do it, you're very polite and say please keep me on your list. I'd love to keep in touch. It's just that this time it doesn't work out.
Maybe even saying, here's a colleague of mine who would be a good replacement for me since I can't do it, You know, making sure you're making their job a little bit easier, showing up on time, you know, for your call time, not being a diva, all that stuff is really important. And I think has, you know, some producers have become friends of mine as well. So that's the way that everybody should approach it.
I completely agree. I mean, even with, you know, just our small interactions through Twitter, I would, I would check in and be like, hey, I saw everything going on. I hope you're OK. You know, it's like having a relationship or or showing compassion and being a human is going to help you on both sides. Like you're going to go a lot further. And I just want, it's all about being a woman online. So why don't you tell us? You know, you've been through a lot before.
We get into the tips for women online and creating relationships a little bit, you know, deeper into that. Why don't you just update us on where things are with Fox? Yeah. So after a sustained campaign against me, my family and I decided to to try to sue Fox for defamation. We were able to file that suit in May of last year. There's a one year, one year statute of limitation on defamation claims for individuals. It took me a while to find a
legal team. It turns out that, you know, in America, lawyers who practice defamation law are really, really highly motivated by profit. And so individual cases tend to net less than, you know, your Dominion or or things like that. And so it was hard to find representation. But I had AI found a really great legal team. They're super brilliant young lawyers who are are just really motivated by what is right. They're motivated by justice. So I feel like they're on my
side. It turns out the legal process in America moves very slowly. So we have filed A brief, Fox has responded, they've tried to dismiss our claim. And now we're waiting for the judge in Delaware to set a date for an oral argument or to just render a decision on Fox's motion to dismiss. And this can take sometimes even a year or longer for the judge to do that. So we're kind of in a waiting game right now, but we feel
pretty good. Our case has been hailed by a couple of media outlets, including NPR and the New York Times, as the Dominion for individuals who have been targeted by defamation. And, you know, it's in black and white that Fox lied about me hundreds of times. And that has had a really, it has had an impact on my life and my security. We can tell when we're mentioned on Fox and I say we because it's not just me, right? It has, it has cascading effects onto my family because we get
death threats when that happens. We get you know, vitriol online that I, I I know only comes from places like Fox. And so I feel, I feel really good about the decision to sue, which a lot of people discourage me to do. They said just move on. And I started how can I move on, right? Like, my life has been immeasurably altered because of what they did. So I look forward to keeping you updated about that. But we yeah, you'll you'll be the first to hear.
You know, I on a normal situation guys, I would have asked for Fox for a comment ahead of time, but this is a podcast, so I didn't do that. We don't have that here, OK? But I do want to get, you know, just commend you because after she was, you know, essentially being plastered all over television, she just kept go. And she's still going, guys like she's on Instagram tweeting, she's everywhere, still going
strong. And what I really loved, Nina, was that you're taking this new approach on. I say it's new because not many people are doing it where you're going to Instagram and you're weighing in on stories and you're putting yourself out there in a video format, which is what I actually tell tell people to do hands down all the
time. Because as a reporter or a journalist receiving pitches, whenever you can't find someone's opinion online, like in a tweet or Instagram or in an article, it makes it a harder sell. So I think the fact that you're putting yourself out there, even in a video form, can also benefit you. So what is the draw to Instagram and putting your opinions there versus only say on Twitter where a lot of the journalists are?
Yeah, Twitter, I mean, I think Twitter has changed so much in the past year or so since Elon Musk acquired it. It has become such a vitriolic place. And I in good faith can't buy into that kind of that that scheme for Musk, right? Like it's, I don't want to be one of his active users on Twitter. And frankly, it had become such a traumatic place for me because of everything that happened that I wasn't using it the same way
anymore. So it wasn't a huge loss for me and it seems like most of the the really civil conversation online is happening on Instagram. I know you know Mark Zuckerberg still owns it still collecting our data. We we can have our qualms about that. But when I look at platforms like TikTok, when I look at kind of the other Twitter alternatives even threads, Instagram is like a kind of it's a nice place to be. At least that's how I feel. And so I've tried to focus there.
I have to say it's hard right? Creating a video that looks and sounds good is a lot more difficult than firing off a tweet that you might be able to do. You know while you're making your toddlers dinner and you have to have quiet, you have to be concentrated. You know all these things. But but it also I think resonates with people in a different way.
So I think you reached out after I did the the the video about Taylor Swift and the degrades kind of explaining to everyone, OK, here's what happened and here's why it matters. And and that that video got 10s of thousands of views in a couple of days. I'm not always so lucky, right? And a lot of it is based on the whims of the algorithm and and
how Instagram works. But if I can reach a new audience again and explain things to people and make it more accessible and maybe inspire them to go and seek more information or consume information differently, then I've done my job. So that's what it's about for me making that impact and Instagram is where I feel like I can make that impact. I'll also just say I, I, I I used to make a lot of videos, right? Pre pre DHS pre like the disinformation governance board
debacle. I made a lot of videos. I used to put them up on Twitter and some of them were fun. The infamous TikTok video, you know, people people made fun of that. But for me, it was me being authentic online. I don't regret it. Like it was me, you know, combining my love of musical theater with my my informational expertise and and before Fox got a hold of that video, people on Twitter really liked it, right.
Like did OK on TikTok, but it had like 10s of thousands of views on on Twitter and most most people were saying hey this is like silly and positive and it's like a breath of fresh air. 00:18:45,880 I think creative content like that is not something that we should shy away from because it is is something that like you know makes you authentic, it makes you a human being. It allows people to connect with
you. And if we are just serious all the time and we're trying to fit into this kind of mold of what is expected of us, particularly as women, I feel like we're letting the bad guys win because we can't ever be perfect for them, right? So you might as well be yourself. I love it. You're just saying everything that I wish more people would do because you need to be your authentic self. Like, you can't just be out there commenting all the time on news. Like, people want to know who
you are. Like, I'm even whenever I'm on Twitter, I actually like now when people are like, hey, I'm, I'm skiing with my kids. It's like, Oh my gosh, there's another side to them. You know, it's, it's showing that we are all human and to the point that you made about the video catching on and being people liked it. In the beginning, you basically were doing what everyone says to be doing right on Instagram and Tiktok to go viral.
So, you know, it's hard. But navigating these social spaces is difficult as a man or a woman, you know? And that really does get me to the book that you wrote about how to be a woman online, looking back and now being where you are. What What tips do you have outside of the many you've already shared? What tips do you have that women can really pick up on and start using today to help them navigate these spaces?
Yeah, I think, you know, besides like the the easy, I would say easy and simple cybersecurity stuff, which unfortunately we all do need to think about. One of the most important things for me when I was going through the worst of the online abuse that I experienced is the fact that I had a community behind me. And that's not something that just crops up overnight. You don't just happen into it.
It was something that I built pretty deliberately, and I did that by supporting other women, other people whose work that I saw, whether they were in my field, in an adjacent field, whether they were journalists. If I, for instance, saw breaking news in Ukraine and I wanted to share an article about it, I would look for a female journalist to share. Because we know from studies that women get retweeted, 50%
less than men get retweeted. For instance, there's only 30% of the of users on Reddit are women. So, like, we need to, we need to gas each other up and amplify each other. And that leads to friendships. A lot of my kind of people who are in my closest circles are people I met on Twitter, and a lot of them are women.
So making sure you're cultivating that community, so that if you are having problems on online, you're not just relying on your family and friends who might be well-intentioned but might not get the Internet to the same extent you do. That is so important having that support network. And then the final thing that I would say also, and this is for men and women who might be listening to you, is if you see bad behavior happening online, a report, it that does still matter.
It sends, you know, signals to the platforms that a certain account is behaving in a way that is potentially against the community standards. But B, think about saying something. And that can happen in one of two ways. You can say something directly to the person who's behaving badly like, hey, this is not OK, what you're doing. And that might make people stop in their tracks and say like, oh, wait a second, people are realizing that I'm being an asshole.
Or you can also send words of support to the person who is being attacked. And that really matters as well. 00:22:16,400 Because it it it means that you know, you know you've got people who are in your corner. And that matters so much when when you just feel like all of this horrible stuff is coming your way to know that there are people who value you and value your input and value your
personhood. So those are three big tips that I think go beyond the obvious, but they they are so helpful when you are the person navigating a sea of abuse online. Such great advice. You know, there's so much we could talk about. I feel like I'm just sitting here like, Oh my gosh, there's so much, you know, when you were unreliable sources and we had produced the show after the disbandment of the board.
I thought when you were on camera and you were talking about the disbandment and how essentially the disinformation board fell victim to disinformation, it was such one of those moments where as a woman, I was just like, so proud of you to just keep on going. I know I said this a little earlier, but guys like, how many of you ever just feel so afraid to show up, right? You, you feel like, I can't. I can't. I just can't. You must have felt that way. But you just kept going, you
know what I mean? Like, I guess it's more of like a mindset. Like how do you just keep on trucking outside of a community outside of knowing your purpose? 00:23:42,280 I think one of the most important things for me is that throughout the years I I went to a women's college. So this has kind of been baked
into me from from the beginning. But I I've also mentored a lot of young women even before DHS and they they have said to me for years, you know, it's nice to have a role model like you to look up to. And so if I had decided to fall back on my yoga teacher training and move to an island and just be teaching son salutations for the rest of my life, would I be happier? Would I be less exhausted?
Potentially. But I also think I would be giving up really important ground that women before me have fought to retain. And I think it's my duty to to kind of hold for the women who are coming after me.
And I don't want to let the bad guys win, right to to the people who use disinformation and online abuse and deep fake pornography, which I've been targeted with myself as well, to try to push people, to try to push women and particularly women of color and other people of marginalized identities out of the public sphere. Our democracy is less strong when that happens and we are just in A, in a less humane
conversation publicly. And so I I kind of feel like I need to do it. And I also think that by talking about my experiences, I'm making sure that for the next person this happens to A, they're prepared, but B, hopefully it doesn't happen, doesn't have to happen for them, right? Even the people I really, really disagree with on the opposite side of the political spectrum, even the people who, who, you know, flung hatred and threats at me, I don't believe that they
should have to endure this. And I want to make that change in the world. So for me, it's it's kind of, again, it's about holding that space and creating that impact. Am I tired? Yeah, I'm really tired, especially as the mom of a toddler.
But the days when I do get to meet, you know, I was just in Austin last weekend at an event at the University of Texas, and there were, I was at a reception after the event and so many young women came up to me. Not that there was a line, but they kept coming to find me at the reception to the extent where, like, I really had to go to the bathroom and I couldn't escape them. So but like, those are really gratifying moments for me. And that's that's what keeps me
going. And I hope for any young woman listening that they're going to pay it forward at some point in their careers too. Well, there's a lot you can learn and she has two books. Just don't forget guys, check them out, How to Lose the Information More and How to Be a Woman Online. Plus, she has a third book coming out. You know any other final thoughts that you have that you want to share?
I mean, I think we're all in a in a vitriolic space, but like the more that we treat each other like human beings, the more we authentically embody our true selves online and kind of, you know, understand that there's a human behind the avatar. We're going to be able to get back to that civility and that promise that the Internet once held. And that's what I I want to see in the world. So watch this face.
I've got some exciting stuff coming out and you can follow me on on Instagram or any of the other platforms where where you find your social media. Thanks so much. And guys, remember to check out the links in the description. There'll be a link to her books as well as to her Instagram account as I may put in other links too, so check them out down there and I'll see you guys online. Bye.