116. Unfiltered Mormonism: Maniacal Mormon Ted Bundy

Everyone and welcome to another episode of the Unfiltered Rise and Hellfire Agency for our Blood Atonement exclusive. We are here to bring you the fire and heat and also the disgusting and dangerous. So here we are today and we are going to be discussing one of the best little Mormons, Ted Bundy. How you doing? I'm doing OK, better than Ted Bundy. I don't. Know yes. Existential suffering is over, but yeah, sooner than. Forever. Sounds like forever in the fire

to me, but who knows? We never know afterward, right? Maybe he said. Sorry, the baby. We at the Hellfire Agency don't think hell sounds so bad. Unless, unless you did something like Ted Bundy. Yeah, creepy, creepy. But you know, I don't know how you would be if you had a grandpa dad and a grandma mom and your sister mom. And it gets real hairy, so. You know so many things about Ted Bundy's like what made Ted Bundy. Ted Bundy is so fascinating.

I got turned on to this as a Mormon kid When I saw I was, I went to a church event put on by Cleon Skousen. I think we we talked about this maybe past and he was, you know, he was the chief of police in Salt Lake City briefly or but not during the Ted Bundy time, but he was like obsessed with Bundy. And he, he had a, he showed us the James C Dobson interview that was taken the night before Bundy was executed. And I don't know if you've seen

that, but it is trash. I mean, Bundy was a Bundy was a malignant narcissist. If anybody was, he manipulated other people and he was desperate to get another state of execution from the Florida governor at the time. And he was literally hours away during the interview. The lights flickered during the interview and that was them testing the electric chair to to electrocute him in the morning. OK, it's ready. And they're like, it's good, Ted. Don't worry, buddy, we got you.

Got the wet, got the wet sponge. It's all good. We're going. We're going to get you good. And he's in there in the prison, and he's given this interview with James C Dobson. James C Dobson. If you do, you know who James C Dobson is. I know he had. Wasn't he the reporter that kept going in and trying to see him? Was that the the one?

No, No. No, James C Dobson was a pastor, an evangelical pastor, and he was the, he was the man who ran Focus on the Family, which was the organization tied to the Mormon Church, by the way. And but you know, he was not happy. I mean, he as an evangelical pastor, he didn't love the fact that he was so closely tied to Mormons, but he needed their money. So he take and so but anyways, he's so he's there basically.

So Ted Bundy's like, this is the he was like the most influential preacher, maybe apart from old what's his bucket? Billy Graham at the time. Oh yeah. And he figures this guy's going to call the president or he's going to call the Florida governor. He's going to get here, release or get me at least a stay and nothing do him. He used him, got his last.

You know, God is basically his last confession where he comes out and says, you know, I don't expect anybody to believe this, but I've made my peace with Christ and Jesus has saved me. I have this. I have him in my heart and I know that he's forgiven me. And he does this whole

rigmarole. And then he says, look, I there was no Ted Bundy that would you would have ever heard of if it weren't for detective magazine detective novels, gory detective novels and porn magazines I took out of my neighbor's trash cans when I was a kid wandering around town. And he's like, if it weren't for pornography and detective novels, I never would have done these violent sexual things.

And it's like, you look into his actual history and it's like, no, Ted. First of all, that's not consistent with any known science about people who do what Ted Bundy did. Or his childhood. Yeah, like the weird stuff. I won't ruin it because you might say it so. Well, you, you alluded to. OK, so he's he was born in a in a home for unwed mothers and to a teenage girl who he believed was his mother and or was his

sister until he was older. And she and then he lived with her parents, who he believed were his parents, even though they were way too old. And his grandpa, his grandpa was a mean drunk and used to hit him and and one day his sister Louise runs off with a cook in the army named Bundy. And she takes him with her and they move out to Washington and he has a better life, at least there. But all throughout his teenage years, he was a kleptomaniac.

And that's where we see things that are consistent with the rest of Ted Bundy's behaviors and his crimes. He would total. Psychopath. Yeah. We had this he had this itch to buck authority and to make people to take something that you weren't allowed to have. And how much of that had to do with his being raised in a family where he thought that his mother was his sister, who knows?

But it it doesn't escape notice that his mother was a brunette with long hair and was a teenager when he was growing up, and he mainly killed teenage girls with brown hair. Well, and then Grandpa, good old grandpa, there's a lot of speculation. Grandpa was literally Grandpa Dad 'cause there was a lot of speculation that not only he abused him physically, but possibly sexually.

He also said that grandpa had a lot of that pornography and a habit of being really violent with the pornography he chose. And personally, a lot of people think like and I don't know, but they say that possibly grandpa was was daddy O. Was Dad? Yeah, I don't know. That's that's, I don't know about that, but I mean it's. Yeah, psychopathy when you get like too interbred related.

Like they've done a lot of studies with the Muslim culture where they intermarry and whatnot, but apparently violence is one thing that goes extremely high when you intermarry too closely genetically. This is actual studies, like not my thoughts about it or anything. So kind of interesting possible, but who knows. Only Ted. Ted and Grandpa Dad.

When they say that. Yeah. They say the empathy develops in the brain mostly during during these earliest years, like I think before the age of like 3 or 4, I think. And so they say that the less time that children, small children, toddlers have to play and the more time they spent in fear for their lives is the less is the less development they get towards understanding and seeing themselves and other people. So how much of it is genetics,

how much of it is upbringing? How much is nature, How much is nurture? I don't think we'll ever know, but some. But one thing's for sure, I don't buy for a second that it was that he bred the gory detective novels and looked at porn, but that but he knew James C Dobson wanted to hear that, that James C Dobson because James C Dobson one of those things was. Yeah, he's a minister, so makes sense. And and focus on the family. Their whole thing was they were

trying to kill cable television. They were trying to cause cable was starting to take off. And they're like, and he's like, this is the thing. You guys can judge me, but you're raising little Ted Bundy's in your home by getting HBO pumped into your into your television sets with cable television. And James C Dobson gets his moment to clutch his pearls. Oh my goodness. I can't believe of all people, Ted Bundy's here to say it. And he's like, yeah, give me my state of execution, man.

Save my life. I'll say whatever. I'll say whatever you want, dude. But I was curious, if you listen to the to the tapes of Tim of Ted Bundy being interrogated, you can hear a change in the pitch of his voice when he gets to a point where they start to where, you know, he stops spinning lies. Because like at some point he's telling Pete, he's telling the investigators everything they want to hear, everything they

want to hear. Hoping that they're going to go back to their respective States and say he gave us everything we wanted on this girl and this girl. But if we're going to get especially Utah, you know, he's like, if we're going to get the rest on what happened with Laura, Amy, what happened with Melissa Smith, what happened

with Debbie Kent? Debbie Kent was one of the ones he basically confessed to. And if but if we're going to get the rest on Susan Curtis, if we're going to get the rest on, on these girls in Utah during his string of murders in 1974 to 1975, we got we got to get a stay of execution. We don't have enough time. We ran out of time because we only have like an hour. But as he as he starts to wane, he starts to complain that he's getting tired.

And I don't know, I can. It's all starting to blur together. You can hear in his voice something that we hear from his 2 two women who escaped him, Rhonda Stapley and Carol Duranch in Utah, who escaped from him. And they both mentioned that he seemed really handsome. He seemed really personable. He was very convincing.

And then you get him in the car. Once he was in the boat, the Volkswagen Beetle, and there's driving up the street and once he starts getting towards the Canyon because he loved to kill girls in the Canyon and and stash them in canyons, is when he would start getting towards the Canyon, his demeanor would suddenly turn dark and he would turn. His whole behavior would suddenly turn. And then in the interview where they interview him, they're

like, we really need you. Look, we don't want to pressure you, but we want to make sure we can if we could, if there's any chance we can find the remains of these other girls, it would bring a lot of peace to their families. And it's like, yeah, I want to do that, but I just don't. I just don't know. You know, I just, it's all starting to blur together. And then they and they're like, well, maybe pictures would help you. He's like pictures? What kind of pictures?

And they're like, we have pictures of the girls and they start pulling out pictures of the girl of girls in Utah. And he starts going through it. And you can tell like, all of a sudden, you know, this is Bundy's thing. He he loved to relish in what he had stolen from these people and. And they say he would, he had these crystal blue eyes, but when he would get like this that they would turn like dark. And I've seen photos of him in color where they they look like black.

It's very creepy. I mean, I definitely, you know, my take on things. I know yours is very different, but I definitely believe in demonic possession straight up. He's one that I think was possessed for sure at times, not always like in and out, right? Because nobody can live like that. There's one. There's something something else that people have noted about him was that at times he looked like a completely different person.

And even like that photo you haven't, we have in the background here, even from that Colorado trial, you can see it. There's moments where he looks like this, where he looks calm, handsome, put together. And in the same, in the same day you got these other these other pictures where you could swear that was a different person. He did. He would change something about him physically look different when he would turn angry and violent.

And the even his brother, you know, came out to Utah from Washington because he had siblings and his brother adored him. I mean, absolutely adored him. He shies away from interviews now, but I heard one with him and he said I came out to Utah and Ted and I went, went boating and, and like fishing and swimming. And they, he had pictures of him and Ted and they're like leaning on each other. And they're, they looked like brothers. They looked like the dearest of

friends. And then he said we were driving back into Salt Lake, and suddenly his demeanor turned dark and something changed in him. And he's like, And he looked disgusted. That's the word all of them used. Carol Durant used the same word. Rhonda Stapley used the same word. He'd suddenly looked disgusted. And you couldn't tell with what, with himself, with the world, with me. And it was like, what happened? I just all of a sudden there's definitely something

neurological going on there. I can say because I'm not a neurologist, neuroscientist, but there was something that he would get this urge. And he said that his brother said they were driving back into town. He stopped and made a phone call and then he got back in the car and he said, I'm taking you to the airport, you're going home. And he said I was furious with him. He's like, I was having a good time.

They had this whole weekend and now you just could send me home and to and so he just he went and put him on a. Probably saved his life, yeah. Quite possibly, I mean. Yeah, I mean, I don't think he could control it. You know that impulse you probably just thought, well, this is my brother, got to get him out of here, you know? There's definitely some kind of compulsive behavior to it. I mean, what is it? Is it OCD? Is it some kind of psychopathy? Is it some kind of who knows

what it what it is? I don't know that we have. Personality, yeah, could be that could be 100 different things. And the fact that, well, the fact of some of the where we'll go with some of this is, I mean, it's definitely not anything any normal quote, UN quote, normal person would do with the necrophiliac part and all of that. It gets really disgusting. And I don't want to, like jump ahead, but when we get there, yeah.

OK, so that's interesting because there's so many urban legends around the necrophilia and stuff that Ted Ted would cut off the girls heads or their hands and he would take them home and like put makeup on them and things like this. But there's never any evidence to produce to to show that. And but there were books about his crimes where they talked about this just as if it plainly as if it happened.

I thought there was one where they found a piece of the girls skull in his apartment to help maybe identify that one just on one girl. And so as far as I know, I mean, I've looked into this a lot, but they, what they found in his apartment were tickets to the school play where Debbie Kent was picked up. And she was, I mean, he, they

had him dead to rights on her. She he killed, no doubt about it. And she was a 17 year old girl going up to school up here in Bountiful, which is also where one of his other victims we talked about the last time was picked up, was picked up in Provo. But she was from Bountiful. She was from that same area, which is curious. So it does say that a partial fragment of the skull of Linda Ann Healy was found in was found in the place where Bunny dumped many of his bodies, I guess.

That's what it was not in the apartment. So they found remains of the girls, not at not at the apartment, but that was curious. The apartment thing really comes into play though, with this whole with this whole thing. But I should to tell you that I got to tell you the whole story. That's OK. That's why we're here. Right. So the curious thing about Ted Bundy in Utah is his relationship with Mormons.

And so when Ted Bundy came to to Utah in 1974, he had left a girlfriend in Washington who was a Jack Mormon girl from Ogden. And we talked about this before, but you know, when he lived in Washington with this girlfriend, you know, she was obviously a Jack Mormon because she wouldn't have lived with her boyfriend if she was a good Mormon girl. But he would leave her clues all the time, almost like a taunting. He'd leave a knife out that looked suspicious and that she

didn't recognize. And she would ask him, where did you get that knife? And then why is it, you know, why is it in the basement and things like this? Or he would leave out the plaster of Paris that he had used to make the arm cast that he would use on one of his favorite roses, right. And she would ask him, why do you have plaster of Paris? What is this about? And he would get, and he would like give her bad answers. You know, she would ask him what, what do you do at night?

Because he would go, he would sleep in all day, barely show up to work. And then he would go out at night and then come home and, you know, she'd be like, where, where have you been? And it's like, you're always interrogating me. You're always after me about what I do. I have friends, I have a life. And you know, you're not everything to me and blah, blah,

blah. And then she told she later tells the police the last year before he when he was going out to Utah, setting up to go to law school in Utah, that his that the sexual relationship they had turned violent. And he would tell her that he felt bad because he felt violent impulses, that he wanted to hurt her or wanted to hurt women, wanted to hurt people. And he would frighten her. And he'd say, I would never actually do it. You know, it's just kind of a kinky thing right now.

He's like, but, you know, sometimes I want to, I feel like I want to hurt somebody. And for you and Molly's sake, Molly's her little girl. For you and Molly's sake. I have to get out of the house. I have to get out here. She's like, well, OK, good. Great. Bye, bye, Bye Felicia. Then he starts telling her, you know, if I got, if I went to Utah, if I go to Salt Lake and get enrolled in law school, I could become a lawyer and then I can provide for you and Molly. We can get married.

And so they're kind of engaged. Not really. They're just talking about getting married and she's like, well, that would be great. Ted not really figuring what she, you know, what was going on. She she's. Counting on that. Right the instant that he is that he is out the door, she takes the picture. The last picture of him in Washington DC in, sorry, Washington State, is him.

Facing towards Utah on the highway with his bicycle turned upside down on his Volkswagen Beetle there and he's about to take off. And that clothes, that's later how people like how the police identify him. He's wearing those clothes when he's caught on camera and his car is in the frame in this at this picnic leaving Washington state where 2 girls wound up going missing and it turns out they were killed. And so, I mean, he's got that

photo. And the same day there's video footage from just people, you know, just taking home. Yeah, just taking their own. Little thing. That's there he is. There's Ted looking for victims. He couldn't he couldn't even make it out of the state before he had to kill somebody. And so he but anyways, but at that point he had been killing girls in, in Washington for a

while. And she, he and she as soon as he was gone, she called the police and said that man, those murders the about a white man, they called him, I'm not sure what point they started calling him the Ted killer. But she said, she said, everybody, from what I understand, he was a white man. He is tall.

He had curly hair, black hair. He's very personable and friendly people who knew him And he drove a light colored Volkswagen Beetle. And she's like, I'm almost certain it's my boyfriend, Ted Bundy. And she told the police in Washington this. And they're like, OK, you know, they take down the report. It's like, oh, we got another Ted killer. OK, great. Yeah. And that was it. They could have saved.

Stopped it then. Yeah. Wow. So he goes to Utah and at that point in time in Utah County, where I live here in, you know, here in American Fork, there was a man, sheriff by the name of Mac Hawley. I have his journal here. This is one of a very hard to get item. I had to I had to really dig to get this thing. But in this book, this is the book where he claims Mac Hawley, the sheriff of Utah County, that he doubts that Ted Bundy killed Laura Amy, who becomes central to to the whole case.

Laura Amy was found dead here in American Fork Canyon about Yonder from where I am right now. And so so in 1974, just that that's spring. Owen Kornberg works for Mac Holly. Now you have to understand Mac Holly, his experience in criminal law at this point he would owned a store in Springville. No, no Spanish Fark as people from New York back Spanish Fark. So he owned a store in Spanish Fark and didn't have a lot else going on in life.

Member of the church, Norman Church, obviously not a big surprise there. But the sheriff at the time comes to him and says your store runs fine by itself. You should come down to the Utah County Sheriff's Office and become my deputy and I'll deputize you. You become deputy sheriff. OK, cool. And so he becomes deputy county deputy sheriff. And then the sheriff retires and Maccauley runs, I believe,

unopposed and becomes a sheriff. And that's how Mack Hawley became the sheriff of Utah County. This is the extent of the man's law enforcement experience at this point. All of his, you know, and basically his whole department is, you know, sheriff's county deputies writing speeding tickets, cleaning up Rd. kill on I-15, not doing a whole lot, right? But Utah County starting to grow with BYU getting more and, you know, students enrolled and, you know, things like this.

And so Utah County's taking off and he decides he's going to start a detective department. They're inside the Utah County Sheriff's Office. Eventually we're going to have crimes here. And he is. So he gets one of these exams for deciding, you know, if a person has the intellect for a, for a detective and gives it to everybody in his, in his Sheriff's Office. And the guy who scores the highest is a man named Owen Kornberg. And he doesn't score, as far as

I know, particularly high. I haven't seen the actual results. He just scores higher than everybody else in the in the office, including Holly Maccauley himself. So Maccauley's like, well, I guess, you know, you've only been on the job a couple of years, so I can't give you a bump in pay and I can't give you like a, you know, raise in entitled to something like a

captain or something like that. So I'm just going to make you a Sergeant. Yeah, I believe a Sergeant, either Sergeant or, or just detective. And you're going to have a three man detective group and you guys are going to solve crimes. And it's like, great. What crimes? I don't know whatever crimes come up. The road kill. Right. Who killed, who killed Bambi? And so that so that September Bundy comes to Utah, comes to Salt Lake, he moves into the pink Palace up there in the

avenues. That's the apartment. When people talk about Bundy's apartment, usually that's the apartment they're talking about. That apartment, by the way, belonged to a Supreme Court judge who spent a lot of his political capital trying to keep that under wraps. But everybody in that I, I talked to a guy who talked to neighbors of, of Bundy's in that building, they're like everybody in this house was doing drugs all the time.

It is like it is hard to, it's like, could, could Bundy really have brought girls in, taking girls out? And it's like, dude, half the time we were all tripping acid. And shit. It's like we were all fucking high. Probably like. Let me help you with that. It's. Like, dude, you couldn't wake the, you couldn't wake the dead, you know? So, yeah, so I mean, but so that apartment becomes curious. So that's September, September, October 2, Mormon missionaries knock on the door of that house.

Sister missionaries, girls, 2122 years old, right. And they and who comes to the door but Ted Bundy. And he's very interested in what they have to say. And won't they please come in and you know, 2 cute Mormon girls are like, oh actually we're not allowed to teach single men who live by themselves. Which normally when I was a missionary I hated that rule, but this case that's probably a good idea. Yeah, they could have been the next roadkill.

Yeah. Yeah. They were, they were in a lot of danger. So, but they're like, well, you should come out to family home evening. And he's like, well, family home evening. What's that? I said it's every Monday night. Mormons spend the evening with their families. And he's like, well, I don't have a family. I'm a single guy.

And they're like, well, that's the thing at the University Ward, which is a congregation for single people here at Utah County. You know, we get together with a whole bunch of single people and we're like each other's family. And it would be really great if we could get more guys there because the portion of guys to gals is like 10 girls to one guy. And he's like, do you have any

brunettes, really? So like if if you ever see photographs of Ted Bundy being normal, that he was like cooking or that there's like 1 scene where he one picture where he's got a towel over his shoulder and he's washing dishes with it with a gal. Those are all from a Mormon, from Mormon family home evenings there with that ward. I want to say it's called 6th Ward. And yeah, so he starts to attend these family home evening events

and take discussions. Now, at the time they don't have any full time missionaries in Salt Lake for to who are males who can teach him. So they they get a couple of RMS, especially 11 man by the name of Larry Anderson, basically becomes in charge of converting Ted Bundy. And he's a he's a return missionary. He gets called the state missionary, which for people outside of the Mormon circle is basically like in like a missionary reservist who's, you know, he's doing it part time.

He's not a full time machine, but he was, he was a return machine. So they're teaching Ted the

discussions. And during this time, we now know he would start to go down to Utah County to hang out in a little place called Lehigh. Right down the road from where I am here in American Pork, there's a little cafe that was known to locals as Brown's Cafe. It's the actual name of place was the Knotty Pine Cafe and but the locals called it Mole Browns because a man named Brown owned it and he had a big mole on his face so he was known to locals as Mole Browns.

That's terrible. Hi, Molly. This is, this is like a local, you know, So this is like a local story. I mean, it's quite a thing. So that comes into play later. So what happens though, is on on Halloween night 1974, a girl by the name of Laura Amy goes missing from Robinson Park here in American Fork, just right down the street from me. And that same night she had been at a bowling alley right down here. Now there's a bowling alley right next door to me because of

Jack and Jill's lanes. And when I read this in the poem, I'm like, Oh my gosh, it's like right next door to me where this girl was, you know, and I was talking to this guy who was a researcher for an Australian biographer who's doing a biography on Bundy. And he said, no, it was actually another building right down the road from there that's now like a Recreation Center. And the moment he texted me that, because he and I've been talking about texts for months

now, I happen to be walking past that building. Oh wow. I turned and took a picture of it. I turned and took a picture of this. Building. Like this building right here and he's like, you found it? I'm like, I walk past this building every morning. He's like, that was the bowling alley I was getting.

So I'm wild. We know that she was there and then we know she was at the park and then a little after midnight when the party ended as a Halloween party, she disappeared and one at least one person saw her get into a light colored Volkswagen so. That car was his downfall. You think as smart as he was, he'd be smarter than that. Here's the wild part about that. That whole time he had another

car, he had a truck. Get a. Pickup. Truck and it was like and but like I'm like the heater must not have worked in the truck like he this this researcher and I went back and forth of this I'm like. Used the truck. Why the Volkswagen and it's like, but like people hypothesized for a long time, it's that if you took the the seat, the passenger seat out of the Volkswagen, it was just the right size to put a body in. It's like, well, they a truck has a bed. Was the truck broken down?

What's the story? But that it's another thing is that the truck starts to make and starts to emerge in other stories. Oh, there was Ted would come down, but he with his buddy was a tall, lanky friend and they came down in a green colored boat and pickup and it's like, what color was Bunty's pickup? And like, start digging through all the. Right. Yeah. And nobody knows this, this

pickup went missing someone. And he's like this researcher and I, we were talking about and he said he's the guy who has the YouTube channel where he interviews all the people connected to Bundy. And he is called Captain Borax on YouTube. And Captain Borax and I go through it and he's like, here's the thing. Those are the old pickup trucks people fix up and keep running and running. It's like someone out there in Utah probably is driving around Ted Bundy's pickup right now.

Yucky EW. They have no idea. That it would green. My dad had a old green pickup. I hope it wasn't a Chevy. We need to, we need to talk. It could be Ted Bundy. I know, spooky. So Lauren Amy goes missing on Halloween night, then on Thanksgiving morning. Thanksgiving Day 2 hikers in American Fort Canyon People from not Utah don't know this euphemism. 2 hikers in American Fort Canyon means two kids smoking weed because. We can't be normal out here.

This is not a normal place like smoking weed is like you're going to prison here just so. You people know that. Well, the the real scandal is, and then it's reported in the newspaper to BYU students and hiking in American Port Canyon. It's like oh shit, honor code. Now I got juicy. So they're going up, they're smoking, they're smoking the stuff allegedly, allegedly as they're going up American Fort Canyon and stumble upon the remains of Laura Amy and they

freak out, call the police. They have to go back into town to call the police because at the time I'm, I don't think it, this was just past Mount Timpanoga's cave, just on the other side of Mount of the Uinta side of Mount Timpanoga's cave. And so, and I don't think that the visitor center was there yet. As a matter of fact, I've seen pictures from that year. It was like mainly just a

parking lot. And so Mount Timpanogas was popular, but to go to or or Timpanogas cave, excuse me, was popular, but to go to The Cave, not to the visitor center. So they have to go back into town to report this gal. This this woman they found, she's 17 years old. And at the time, I don't know how they, I don't know why they called Utah County because technically I think that she's on the Uinta side of the Canyon. But I, I've been looking for

this. I haven't tracked it down, but I'm pretty sure that Uinta just didn't have a County Sheriff at that time. But I'm not sure. But Utah, Yeah. Yeah. Utah County Sheriff's Office Mac Holly and Lee and Owen Kornberg show up to do the investigation. Their first stuff ever and it's this horribly big case. Oh my gosh. It's their basically their first case and I can't really.

Imagine. So all right, according to the police report, they found tire marks matching that later worked matched to Ted Bundy's Volkswagen and they made a plaster cast of the tire marks. OK, cuz it's at a pull out. They found Laura Amy's body. She was naked except for a ring on her finger. And she had had. She had been strangled. She'd appeared to be strangled with a pair of pantyhose. And there were later fibers of pantyhose nylon embedded in her skin.

She is. And she had been apparently raped and bludgeoned over the head and, but otherwise. He was a nice little contact killer man, like with the bare hands stuff like. Yeah, that. Talks about Yeah. There's a whole psychological thing to get into the pantyhose because she was not the first or last that he used that this was his MO to strangle them with. Pants. Yeah, and the and the bludgeoning too, which is weird. And the bludging on the head. Yeah, yeah. Consistent.

Everything consistent with a Ted Bundy murder you know well over a year before those all those details are really fully public or really well known in the public. This this was consistent boom, boom, boom, boom, boom MO Ted Bundy, Ted Bundy killing the one difference was Ted Bundy would pick girls up and and he this becomes actually a big key. Maybe I'll save that for a minute.

OK. Anyways, there's one major difference and that was that she was picked up in the same county that she was that she went missing from and Ted Bundy didn't do that. Ted Bundy would pick him up in one place and he would move him and he would drop him off after they were dead in another place. But that that is interesting when that got when he would blur that line was either probably appears to be either he was too drunk. His claim was that sometimes he was too drunk and he would start

to panic. And so we just had to get her out of the car, get the car. Well, and then you have to think about the work that it is. You know, like this isn't just like I I've carried a dead body because I'm a nurse and I've had to move them and all kinds of gross stuff. And that is not an easy task. You have to be up for it.

So yeah, I mean for sure. It's like some girls like Melissa Smith, he killed her on you know, you know, he picked her up on at the mall up there at at the fashion mall in Murray and then he basically dumped her. He like basically went up the Canyon and just dumped her. Whereas Debbie Kent, he picked her up in Bountiful and Stat and claims he stashed her body way down in Sanpete County. Like days later I was like holy crap, are you like what? What? Are you doing with it in

between? Yeah. Exactly. And that feels this, this whole thing about maybe he he played with them. Well, two things. One was that he would keep them alive and he would rape them consistently and then kill them. And the other was that he would kill them and then rape them after they were dead. And, and we he never really confessed to either. So we don't really know what

happened there. But this, this MO, the differences in the MO is where things get really murky with Bundy to the point where some people say like some of these, some of these murders he's actually been exonerated on where it's like this doesn't fit his MO. And then witnesses have placed other persons at the scene of the crime, where we realize now for years, some of these victims

are not Bundy's victims. There's somebody else, which means that there was more than one murderer swimming around. They should be doing some DNA from that. They take all those samples. I bet they have. I bet they have some stuff. So there's the thing, 1974 DNA research exists, but courts and police departments don't really trust it at this point. How can it be?

These scientists know who it is. They you don't know whose blood that is. You don't know whose semen that is just by testing it with your little science lab kit. They didn't trust it. And you know, and especially because people started to get exonerated as DNA starts to emerge, Well, Laura, Amy, she gets examined as soon as she's discovered that evening. She gets an autopsy by the Utah medical examiner, Dr. Serge Moore. There's a whole other facet of this story.

Serge Moore says that she was a non virgin, a non virginal 17 year old girl. Which seems strange to me. It's like I'm reading this autopsy report and I'm like, is that the way they put describing autopsies? I can't find, I can't find a coroner to answer these questions for me on on my podcast so far. But it was, it all seemed, very judgmental, very looking into

her personality. And then and then like you can, you can know sort of, but not conclusively if somebody's quote UN quote a virgin because there is the hymen and the hymenal tissue and then the the widening of the vaginal wall. However, some women have a wider set vagina than others and depending on tampons and these other things and whatever, we won't even get into self exploration such as things like that. Who knows what we don't know?

I mean, they've even had women break their hymens on a horse riding horse. Or riding a bicycle and stuff like that. Stuff happens. Yeah, but it's like, and, and she's 17 and what difference would it make? You know? It's like, give us the facts Surge. You know, Doctor Moore, Doctor Moore ISM is a Mormon. His actual name was Moreno. He was educated in the Universidad de Mexico. He was born in Mexico City.

And later on, I find out through this, you know, research connected to me, to this researcher, that he later was basically fired as Utah Medical County examiner because so many of his autopsies were so inconsistent with the facts. And it turns out they looked into it and contacted Universidad de Mexico and discovered that they had no record of him. And he, this man had practice medicine at Johns Hopkins University. If he had practice medicine in Cleveland, OH, he had practice,

and he'd had. Way to do your due due diligence people. Exactly, all the time. And he had served in the IT served in the Navy, apparently. So it's like, and then all this time it's like basic things. Well, so this is the curious thing though. So he gets her remains and he says he found semen in her vagina that had non potent, if a non potent sperm in it. So which you would expect. I mean, she's been dead for a

month. They're dead and it's and but he found but he found semen and which means he collected it if he knows how well you know whether or not the sperm or healthy must have tested it, done some tests with it and collected actual, actual fluid, actual tissue. And he is so you have that and he has he found the nylon fibers in her skin. He found the bludgeon marks where she had been struck over the head with a head with blunt force trauma in a way consistent with something like a tire iron.

And he actually puts that in the autopsy. And so all of this consistent with the MO and also a ring that he took off of that he had to cut her finger off because it had started to swell. And so and that rigor mortis had started to set in. But he said that the rigor, the state of rigor mortis that she was in showed that she had been dead for a week. Now this is Thanksgiving Day 19701974. She went missing. Oh, yeah. Halloween night 19. 70 yeah,

that's long. So there's at least two weeks, maybe 3 where she is, according to this autopsy. She's been kept alive somewhere. And I'm looking at this and I'm like, where? Because the reason I started into this is that there's a cave up here in American Fork Canyon that they called Ted Bundy's Cave. And it's been an urban legend for a long time, debunked several times. People like there's no way Ted Bundy would have known about this. It's an old abandoned mine shaft.

I went up there to record in front of it and very disappointed to find out they blasted it out. So you can't even get up there anymore. So, but the, The thing is, all of that speculation came out of this conclusion that there was that she'd only been dead for a week. And so people started looking for where, where did he keep her? Was it in the basement? So there's a, a cellar, a storm cellar in the place where he where his apartment was in the,

in the avenues. It's like he picked her up in the he picked her up down here in Rob at Robinson Park and drove her all the way back to the Avenues and kept her up there, kept her in the basement of a building where all these other people are living. I don't care if they are smoking pot and dropping acid all day long. Somebody's going to hear a girl. Right on. Something screaming. Yeah, it's like, but I mean, you could say, well, maybe he took her up there and he killed her.

But then why would would her autopsy report say she'd only been dead for a week? She, you know, So none, none of it adds up. None of it makes sense until I said to this researcher. I said he said, what do you say, Joe? I said, I say, is October 31st, which means an American Ford Canyon. I've been up and down that Canyon a million times. That means that that Canyon was cold AF. Dude. That Canyon is a morgue, and that makes total sense that she would her body would be

preserved more. Than you would expect. And he's like, not only that, he said. But it snowed that day. He said snowed and, and on Halloween, I mean, it happens, but that's a little early. And he's like, it did. He's like, you can find reports down as far as South as Provo that it was snowing. And he's like, you get a body there with a thin layer of snow over it. Yeah. I'm like. It's going to stay nice, yeah. I said, so she could have been dead for a month.

He's like, yeah. And I said that's that seems to make more sense to me than that. He took her up to the avenues and kept her in the cellar. He never kept them that long, even if there was conjecture that he kept them, that it's like very short period of time, you know, from what we know. He was such a, he was such an anxious man. I mean, he would, he would freak out, you know, he would be like, since somebody's going to find out, somebody's going to find out. Yeah, I. Can't. Imagine.

I don't think so. So here's The thing is that that Thanksgiving, Ted Bundy had friends over to the house up there, the apartment, the avenues. It was his missionaries, John, I forget his, there's John. So and so there's four guys. I have it in an episode of Blood

Atonement coming out here soon. But but there's four of them, including Larry Elder and they had just gotten a copy, I believe of the Deseret News. There was a there was an article in the Deseret News about a murder, about an attempted kidnapping. Of like, do you hear about this? Do you hear about this girl? Yeah, right.

And so it's been attributed many times to Carol Duranch, but it actually wasn't Carol Duranch. They published a a composite sketch that turns out it was the the drama teacher for Debbie Kent in Bountiful and she had she had been approached on the night that Carol Duranch. Carol Duranch was one of was the first woman to survive the Ted Bundy attacks. She you know, he picked her up at the same place where he picked up Melissa Smith earlier earlier that month.

He came back and picked her up and said that he was a police officer, that he caught somebody trying to break into her car. He wanted to take her down to the Murray Police Department to fill out a report. She's like, OK, so she goes with him. But she's a pretty clever girl, Carol Duranch. And she figures out right away because she's getting up to this old beat up Volkswagen, that

this is not a police officer. And she figures I guess maybe he's undercover because he's not dressed like a police officer, but he has a badge. And she says, I want, can I see some credentials before I get in this car, this strange car? And he flashes a badge at her. And then she's like, get in the car. She's like, OK, I guess some police officers drive both, you know? So she gets into the car. They make it up the road less than a mile when his demeanor turns dark.

And he reaches over and takes a pair of handcuffs and slaps one on her wrist and she's and she freaks out, as you would imagine, turns to him. She starts screaming, wants to get out of the car, get let me out of this car. He pulls over onto the side of the road, starts wrestling with her. She goes for the door, door handle and discovers it doesn't open. He's been rigged to not open from the inside. And so she starts wrestling. He pulls out a gun.

He pulls out a pistol and tells her to be quiet or he's going to kill her and she's like whatever, you kill me either way is. Whatever. Yeah, you're coming for me. Whatever. Yeah. She she manages to I, she doesn't even know. She doesn't describe how she figured out or or managed to, but somehow she managed to buck that door open, just twisting it in a seat and just boom, popping that door open, which it'll do if you do just about any car door. He's out on top of her.

As soon as she's out on the ground wrestling on top of her and the car comes up all along the road. She gets out from underneath him, runs over to the to this car and throws open the back seat of the the back door of this sedan. Thank goodness that one was open and shouts Dr. drive drive. And so she gets away. That turns out to be his worst nightmare, because that's the girl who later identifies him in the lineup. And that's where his story starts to unravel.

So in any event, the that same day he got that he has that urge to kill. And it once he got that point, he can't stop himself. So he goes up to Bountiful, goes to a school play, he gets a ticket. He or no, no, he gets a like a handbill for the play at at this local high school. And that's the handbill they later find in his apartment that connects him to this murder. And so he finds, he start, he walks up to this tall, lanky, beautiful brunette, early 30s, I want to say, who's the drama

teacher in the hallway? And he comes up to her and he starts and he tells her that he really, he compliments her on her eyes and like her dress or whatever. I, I, I forget exactly. I think he, I remember he, he complimented her on her eyes and then he told her that he wanted to show her something out in his car or something. And she's got all the red flags going on. She's there monitoring the play, of course, because she's the

drama teacher. And she's like, I don't think I'm going anywhere with you, thank you very much. But who, who even are you? And it's just like, look, I, I have to be back backstage. So she goes backstage and she goes to a male faculty member and she's like, there's a creep outside wandering the halls of the school. I think he's, I think he's dangerous. Go check him out. By the time he gets out there he comes back. It's like I didn't see any

creepy looking guy. She has seen him entering into the auditorium and leaving again. Debbie Kent goes has and he and that he had Debbie Kent with him. Debbie Kent goes missing that night. She's never seen him alive again. They find later they find a Patella in down in San Pete County I believe and that's believed to be her that later was DNA match to be Debbie Kent's. So in any.

I wonder if I kept all those old samples, like even if they didn't run them back then because they thought like it's hokey or whatever. I'm curious, you know, there's a lot of cases that have really old DNA that they're still able to extract later. And, and I it's curious that they haven't done this because I mean, obviously, like you said, I don't think they want to get into it like, oh, there's maybe another guy and we missed it or whatever.

But I mean very curious. See, now that's interesting that you would bring that up. OK, so here's the deal my. Forensic weird brain. We're going to get to that We're going to get to that because that's exactly right. I I I said the same thing, especially when Laura Amy they tested the sperm, the sperm count in the semen that they found in her. That means he collected semen. You wouldn't just throw that away. You'd put that with the evidence right.

In case you case you find the killer you can connect them up so, but any event they. At least tested, you know, there's people's sperm even back then. There's like carrier sperm and non carrier sperm. Like they like blood where it has like the RH factor or non RH factor. There's stuff that they could have used, even the blood typing from it. So I mean, there's typing of these things.

So I'm curious. And hair samples, one of the, you know, sketchier, but you know, sometimes productive ways to well. Let's be let's be honest, we know he wasn't grooming because have you seen those eyebrows? I'm sorry. Not his. Not his hair. The victim's hair.

Because later he sells that later after he goes, he goes, he's being held in jail for Carol Duranch for the attempted kidnapping of Carol Duranch. He takes his car, which he has put up for Bond. He takes that Volkswagen and he sells it to a 1617 year old boy down in Murray. Murray, who was one of the classmates of Melissa Smith, the girl, one of the girls he murdered. And he sells the car to this boy who's ecstatic.

He starts taking girls on because he's working down at the Winchell's, you know, doughnut shop. And he's he's making a little bit of money. So he's going to take girls out on dates and things he's taking. Girls money I mean they can't get away because there's no door that we're I'm sorry I I am the worst OK, This is why I'm here I'm here to bring the goof like. Once So here's the thing.

This so they they have a hell of a time tracking down this car because he told the boy he's like when he sold it to him. I almost got an interview. I might get an interview with this kid. This car is so cool. My researcher friend, he talked to the guy he had. There's video on on Captain Borax's channel. You can watch. You can listen to them talking. That's actually completely awesome. OK, in 30 minutes I have to tell you this. Oh, do you have a? Version No.

No, I don't have to get out. My daughter accidentally ordered Starbucks to my house instead of her house. So in 30 minutes I'm going to that door cuz I am not white and delight some. I like coffee. We are brown and we are brown. But I'll just bring it down here and drink it while we talk. So that sounds good to me. You just let me know, I'll head over, I'll help the car. Yeah, yeah, we're going to meet up one time and do this live and have some. Lunch. Or something. It would be fun.

Sorry. Sorry for my. Interrupt. Back to the car. So they get the, so they finally, you know, so he takes, so this boy, he buys the car and you know, for like $800, which is less than it's worth. But Bundy tells him, he says, listen, I was caught smoking weed in this car by the police a few weeks ago. And the guy just let me go. And he's like, so there's a report connected to the car

with, with smoking weed. If you get pulled over with this car, you're going to, you know, they're going to connect you with that. And then the boy's like, Oh my gosh, you serious? I don't want to get into any trouble. And he's like, just don't worry. Just don't register the car and then tell them my name. You tell them that it's my car and that I lent it to you. And so he's like, oh, OK. And you know, stupid 17 year old kid, he's driving. The car.

Right, exactly, exactly. So when the police come looking for this car and finally track it down, they're like, and he's like, well, wait a second, what's going to happen? You know, they're like, we're going to impound this car. It might have evidence in it and he's like, well, OK, So what happens with me? Do I get like paid or do I get the car back when you're done with it, you're. Good. You're screwed, Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And they're like nothing.

You, you, you bought a car that was used in a crime, so that's the end of your car anyway. So they opened up that car. They opened up the panel and somebody, somebody had the clever idea to pull that, that door panel off with the broken door handle. And what do they find in that door panel? But brown hair, tons of hair from all the girls who've been trying to get the fuck out of

this coat. And they, they're able to distinguish out, separate out the hairs by pulling them out and, you know, getting them under a microscope. OK, this is from 1 victim. This is from 1 victim. This is from 1 victim. They're able to type them, you know, by what kind of hair product they use, what kind of, you know, how worn the hair was. Course.

Yeah, of. Course then early, early, all that so they start to type it and of course now we know that if you can get a hair sample from here and hair sample from here, you can DNA for. Sure. They weren't doing that back then, but when they when they found Laura, Amy, who is a brunette, they found her body. They took hair samples. So they come back.

All of these researchers, this is now the FB is involved because now they know that they've connecting him with murders in Washington, UT, Colorado and Idaho. So this is now a national case. This is a federal case. And so the FBI is like, we want all of the evidence for all these girls, especially that girl down in American Fork Canyon because that could tie us. You know, she was so well preserved. Most of these victims, they don't know what happened to

their remains. So they they're like that girl down in American Fort Canyon. That's dynamite. That's pure gold, man. We got to get all of the things they have from her. So the District Attorney for Utah County is the man named Noel Wooten. He goes to Mack Holly almost right away after this girl goes missing. There's another part of the story I was going to get to. I'll come back around to it. We don't. I don't have a time limit other than my coffee so no worries. That's a hard limit.

Right there we go. And that's just 5 seconds. Go up, come back. So Noel Wooten, my dog. Will let me know. Oh yeah. I remember that. But Noel Wooten, he goes over to Mac Holly and he says we want all this evidence. We're so we're collecting it all in Colorado to give to the FBI. They even have the car and Matt Colley's like what evidence? And he's like the evidence on Laura Amy, the hair samples, the semen, the the the plaster cast of the tire tracks.

No, no, don't know what you're talking about. And he's like, don't tell. He's like, don't give me that. That's not funny. And he's like, I need this, I need this by a certain time. I'll send, I'll submit the forms now. But I, we need it like right away because they're putting together the case to take him to, to trial and to charge him in Colorado. And he's like, yeah, no, he said I. And so they finally, they, they badger him for the longest time.

So it turns out Owen Kornberg, who's this detective, He shows up at the home of Laura Amy's father. Laura Amy's father is the person who identified her by looking. But when he heard on the news that a girl had been a girl who'd been found in American Port Canyon, he find he was able to see by the by three scars on her arm from where she'd been thrown from her horse. She was a horse rider.

She loved horses. And he goes up there and he's like, I, he calls them and he's like, I think this girl might be my daughter, the girl they found in the in American Fort Canyon. And they're like, really? You think that your daughter might be missing? And he's like, OK, my daughter's a runaway. I know that she has a, you know, a hard lifestyle, bad lifestyle and whatever. But you know, what can I tell you? She's a rebellious. Girl, I want to know. Yeah, I want to know. It's still my kid.

Asshats. Like, right, I mean, I'd be the greatest, I'd be the greatest dad in the world if my kid is dead. I want to know. And he says to the to the guy working for Noel Wooten later, I'm trying to remember the guy's name. He's now a judge down here. As a matter of fact, he's a member of Pleasant Grove City Council. He tells him, he says, he says I, I asked him. I said, well, can I go and check out the body and there. And he's like, and they gave me a real hard time about it.

And I was like, I need to know if you can't tell me, he's like, tell me the girls the tell me the color of the girl's hair. And they were like, we can't give out that kind of information. The Utah County Sheriff's Office is telling him, and he's like, how is the person supposed to find out if it's their kid? And he's like, this is this is wild. And so they're like. And then finally the guy says Mac Holly says, well, you can go up there and look at her if you want.

OK, thanks, jerk. And he goes up to. I mean my kid. My kid is missing. Yeah, and she might be murdered anyways, so she goes up to Utah County. So he goes up to the medical examiner's office and identifies her. Yeah, that's my daughter, Laurie Amy. And then later, when they start looking for the evidence box, Owen Kornberg apparently contacts him and says, you know, and starts asking him if people have been asking around about their daughter. About his daughter.

It's like, what kind of people? What are you talking about? And it's like, we're just we, we we need to know. Are they, are, you know, have you been contacted by anybody? He's like, who would contact me? What? Yeah. Then you would be like, worse. You're like, what the hell is wrong with you people? I would be going crazy by now. I would be.

Arrested, right. So they so they after they are able to identify the body and all the autopsy is closed and the case has been put, you know, put away, they give the body over to the parents who take her down to Sandpi County and they bury her down in Sandpi County. Well, after, after all this is all all this is going down between Noah Wooten and Mack Holly. They finally get into into an office somewhere to have a meeting.

We're not clear. We've been me and this researcher guy a knife, Captain Borax and I, we've been going back where I was like, where did this meeting happen? What exactly got said? We can't really nail it down. But after that at, at at one point, we know in this meeting or, or leading up to this meeting, Noel Wooten told Mack Holly, He said I will put you in prison if you do not produce the

evidence of this girl. I will charge you with evidence tampering if you do not produce the evidence of what happened to Laura, Amy. And then they have this meeting and then nothing, nothing happens afterwards. And yeah. And So what kind? Of janky situation is happening. Exactly. We got a bunch of basically in the episode on on Helpfire Agency, I describe it as this is this is a Sheriff's Office with no Andy Griffiths and all Barney Fives.

Apparently so. Jeez. Wow. So what it turns out is that later they find out that the Utah County Sheriff's Office had moved offices at the end of 1974, early 1975. And in the process of moving offices, they threw away a whole bunch of boxes. They didn't even know what they were. And probably Laurie Amy's evidence was in there. Now, I talked to this, this guy, the Captain Barks I've been talking to.

He went down to, I want to say Springville and met with Owen Kornberg, lo, these many years later. He's an old man and he tells and he said and he tells me that he had a conversation with the man and he basically said we never had any evidence at all. And he's like. But. That's a it's, but that doesn't match the police report. That's a falsified police report. People go to jail for that. People go to prison for that. It's like, this is, this is

serious business. And he's like, yeah, there's never any evidence collected. It's like, but isn't that what you would say if you had thrown the evidence away? Right, he's screwed one way or another. If he loses it he's in more screwed problem then I feel like If he never had it and lied I feel like I feel like that's the lesser of two evils probably. But who knows?

So this eventual judge, this officer who works for Noel Wooten goes has to go. He goes down to Sanpete County, hat in hand to to the girl's father, to Laurie, Amy's father, Jim, Jim, Amy. And he says, and he has to tell him, basically, Utah County lost your daughter's evidence. And we think this guy, Ted Bundy killed her and he's like, are you kidding me, that guy? And he's like, it's consistent. Everything's consistent with with his other murders. We think we can nail him for her murder.

And she's one of the only girls that we have any remains for that we can nail him with. We've got the body. And he's like, well, OK. He's like, So what does, what does this have to do with us now? He said now. He's got to dig her up, I bet. Yeah. They had to dig her up.

That exhumed the body and he's like, because we found hair samples in the Volkswagen and he's like, it's not very conclusive evidence, but it's the best that we've got given that all evidence is. And so he signs off on it and they go to get a court order. This is how you know, this guy is a belt and suspenders kind of lawyer, right? He's like, he's got the court order, the injunction to or whatever it's called to, to dig her up.

And then he goes and gets the family's license to exhume the body and at least get hair samples cut from her hair. And so that I mean you Can you imagine just the trash? Just the dad, like the way they handled him in general, that's he should have sued. He should have sued the county.

And he said there's a guy, he this guy was saying in this interview on Captain Borax's channel that the, that Jim Amy had told him, there's this guy from the Utah County Sheriff's Office. And he was so rude to us when he confronted us about who we've been talking to. And, you know, is there anybody snooping around about this case? And he was just rude, rude, rude to us. And the guy's and the guy has to, he said. Was his name Owen Kornberg? Wow.

Which couldn't have been he. Didn't want to cough it up. Yeah, he didn't want us. He didn't want to be nailed. Wow. He knew that own. He knew that Mack Hall, either Mack Holly or he might go to prison over this. I mean, he must have. So in any event, he could. Have just give him indemnity to talk like at that point where he's so old, like even before that like just give the guy his free pass of oopsie so we know

what happened. Like the guy probably just wanted to know what happened to his kid, you know? The whole thing these years later just smacks up. Who cares? You know Bundy's dead, doesn't matter. And it's like. So to the dad like. I want to know I have no connection. I live down the street from where the woman's the girl's body was found and I want to know what happened to her. Yeah, yeah. It's not right. That's not right.

So in any event, so they had they dig up the body, they take, they take the hair samples and lo and behold, they don't match any of the hair samples found in the car to this day, to this day, they never can have produced conclusive evidence that Bundy killed her and he never admitted to it. So it's amazing because their whole reason I even tracked down this book they spent 30 bucks on.

I think I tracked it down. This is a small limited print of this book written by Mac Hawley to to talk about his basically his whole career as sheriff from 1960 to 1985. Plus it says plus BYU basketball and football personal observation history, right? And in this whole history is this lines on page 50 of this book, right? And says another Grimm, it says the murder of Laura and Amy.

Another Grimm murder investigation began when the nude body of Miss Amy, age 17, was found by hikers in American Fort Canyon November 26th, 1974. According to the medical examiner's report, Miss Amy had been raped and probably died of multiple blows to the head and strangulation.

Police officials compared notes concerning this and the murder of Melissa Smith of Midvale and the disappearance of Deborah Kent of Bountiful. This was an extremely trying case with bickering and innuendos thrown about. He's talking about people saying people accusing him and and Owen Kornberg of disposing the the evidence. This this is an unsolved case. Many officers have attributed it to Ted Bundy, the so-called serial killer who had been in this area. I'm not so certain that's it.

Well, I mean, if you would have done your job, we probably would be certain. If you and if you hadn't covered up for the fact that you didn't know what the hell you were doing. Yeah, exactly. Like, better to admit an accident than you know. And that's where I think that with anybody, like, OK, the suing should only happen when it's non nefarious. If it's nefarious 'cause you're trying to cover it up or you're trying to help somebody get out of prison or whatever, then

that's a different thing. But if they had had a law where they wouldn't go to prison because of an accident, OK, if it was truly an accident and maybe they're covering for their secretary or who knows what the cleaned up or whatever. If there was no fault laws, we would have a lot more knowledge in many cases. But that's not the way it is so.

The interesting thing came up, the interesting thing that comes up is in all the little details of the of of the things where you can play a straight case for everything that happened here was exactly as you would imagine it happened if it was just very, a very normal crime, a series of crimes. And then all of these wild stories like Ted Bundy used to keep girls down the basement of the house. He used to keep them in some cellar up in the Canyon.

He used to keep them in this, you know, down here in this Canyon or down in the Canyon and Provo in The Cave down there, you know, on all these things. And then even now, little things like this guy, Captain Borax, he took that boy who had bought Ted Bundy's car up to the house in the Avenues. And he said and he and there and they went up to Ted Bundy's apartment because that boy when he bought the car, Ted Bundy was like, hey, I want you to drive me back to my house.

I don't have a right back to my house. So they drove him back up to that house and they went upstairs for a while probably. Probably smoke some weed. Yeah, because to nail his story right, like here we go. Now he goes in to the apartment and he says, here's the thing.

He notes something that Larry Anderson notes at that when they went over to Ted's for Thanksgiving dinner, basically with this composite sketch in hand and start talking about the this, you've heard this, the Ted Killer might be in Utah. Is this guy Ted the Ted Killer? Look, here's this. They showed that they're passing around this composite sketch. And hey, your name's Ted. Yeah, and but he says we we would hold them up to the sketch, to each person around the room. Is it you?

Is it you? Is it you? Oh, I bet it's Al. Look at Al. And then it's like, what about you, Ted? Oh, Ted. Ted. Ted is the Ted killer. Hey, come here, Ted. Like, Oh my gosh. And, and I don't think he had the ability, knowing his personality to keep someone, like you said, because he was known to have OCD. He was known to have like this really compulsive behavior. He was known to be really like paranoid. And I just don't like you said, I don't think that fits his his

MO if we want to go there. Like I just can't see him doing it. I'm very convinced that he had obsessive compulsive disorder. Too many things just were too consistent with it. Well, so, but they said, but his missionaries made frequent mention that he was a very good cook. He was a gourmet cook. And he was one of these people who kept pots and pans hanging on a pot, hangers on the wall. That's what's the perspective of the Mormon missionaries who are trying to convert him, right?

It's one of those people who has, you know, special pots for things and pans for things. It's like, you know, takes care of his stuff because he uses it to cook for people. That boy who bought the car, his first thing he said he knows when he walked into the apartment was that he was that he, there were meat hooks hanging from the wall and that he would Ted Bundy that he had bicycle wheels.

He had like this thing where he took bicycle wheels and then he put least into the spokes of the bicycle wheels these meat hooks. And then he would hang the pots and pans on these meat hooks, unlike this elaborate display in his apartment. And then he's like, what a weird thing. He's like, it's strange. Nobody else noticed that they were meat hooks that he hung. On he's like. The creepiest things like who does that?

So then they go down in this video, you can see in the video, they go downstairs and they convince one of the people they're not supposed to do this, according to the property manager who manages the property, to let them down into the cellar where Buddy supposedly kept girls. And it's that's usually padlocked. Nobody's allowed down there. So they somehow got the padlock off. He's like, he's like, I'm not telling, you're not telling. But we got down into the cellar

and they did. They got footage down in the cellar. And one of Captain Borax, he's down there and his foot strikes something metal. He reaches down, picks it up. Guess what? It's a meat hook. No way. And he shows it to the guy, and he's like, is that the meat that you saw in his apartment? And the guy flipped. He's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Weird. I'm not no, I'm not even. He got very quiet all of a sudden. So it's like, OK, is this a gimmick?

I asked him like, come on, man, did you really find, did you really find a meat hook in the seller? And he's like, Oh my gosh, he's like, I'm telling you, Joe, He's like I'm telling. You and it was probably like old and shit like all gross. Like all crusty? Yep. It's like I'm not a person now. I tell people all the time. I sell my subscribers. I'm like agency. I don't go for conspiracy theories. And I'm not 100. Percent weird. For conspiracy, if there's

receipts, if there's receipts. And who's to say, you know, this is, this is, but that's weird. That's very weird that. Is really creepy, especially where it was locked up and he doesn't let people go in there and like it's not like people are just like touring or he's making money by putting like I'm going to go put a meat hook in there. He probably didn't even know that story. Like I've never heard that story from the kid like I. Asked him, I said, did you interview?

I said, you know, they say that the Supreme Court justices, the Supreme Court judge's daughter lived downstairs from Ted Bundy. He's like, oh, yeah. And she's a total pie. He's they got that from the other people live there and the people live next door. And I said, I said, did you interview her? He's like, oh, no, you don't know. I'm like, no, what? He's like he's she's missing. Oh my gosh, was she brunette?

I I don't remember, He's like. He says, But here's the thing, Somebody who was who lived across from Ted at the time told me that Ted used to just show up at her door when she was high. He which was like all the time. And he knew she'd let him in and she let him do whatever he wanted. And I was like the Supreme Court judge's daughter. And he's like, yeah, I'm like. Jeez, man. And I'm like. You would think he would care about his daughter, like where she is or whatnot, you know?

It's weird. 70s were crazy, but it's like little things like that. I mean, their neighbors have had said at the time that Bundy would would take his Volkswagen every weekend or so and he would take all the seats out of it and he would hose it down and start getting there and start scrubbing it. And, and I, I told him that. And he's like, I hadn't heard that. I'm like, you hadn't. He's like, no, I hadn't heard that. And I'm like, well, you know, you're not going to go drive him.

I mean evidence. Right. He's like, he's like, you know, I'm like, you know, he was like a neat freak, right? And he's like that definitely, right. That's that OCD. And the cross, the cross contamination of the pans and the meat hooks and the cooking. That's fantastical. I bet those missionary people wish they hadn't eaten there then. But they will even the women at the the women who went to the family home evenings would talk about it's like, oh, Ted, oh, Ted could cook.

Oh, he had he was such a good cook. But his dad was a cook in the army. He obviously taught him how to cook and. Hopefully he wasn't cooking anything weird. I don't know. I mean, you know. I needed to talk to you, Heidi, to get that one bugging in my brain. Yeah, you know, there's those killers that fed their neighbors. Well, supposedly a person. They had a big cookout. Titus Andronicus action going. On Yucca. Yucca. Yeah, well, I guess it's salty.

I don't even know, but that sounds like something a psychopath would do. And then they'd revel in it later. Like I made those Mormons eat that person. There and and that's, that's been an interesting all the trophy taking stories that came out of it 'cause we know OK. So he kept the credit card receipts from when he went to Colorado and killed those girls out in Colorado. And, and again Captain Boricks and I'm talking about him like he's like who keeps credit card

receipts? And I'm like, I, I had the same thought when it, when it's, it's like what, you know, would you keep all the charges, all the bills from all especially I said, if you'd been to Colorado to kill girls, I got you. I'm going to bomb. I, I, if you've gone to Colorado to kill, to kill these girls and every gas station that you went to was on that credit card bill. Yeah, you wouldn't want evidence in your house, like, oh, here's where I was, you know?

Except that this kleptomania thing comes back up. It's like it was, it was about taking something from somebody and seeing it took that from you, you know? Well, and the fact that he was so arrogant, I don't think he ever thought that it would matter because he like talked his way out of everything. I mean, and he did like he literally had a kid in prison. When you say he had a kid in prison, he one of his fans and he had fans then he's got them

today. I've talked to these women who are like, Oh my God, Oh my God, I'm like. You're not that cute. Like honestly, I just don't see it. I said the same thing. I was talking Captain Parks about the same thing. And I said, and I've said I don't get it. I'm going to be honest with you. And he's like, you're better looking than him. I'm like, well, yeah, that's true, but that's not fair. Yeah, he's like awkward. His eyes are too close together. He's got a unibrow.

His nose is really pointy. He's very stern looking in a way, like a pointy person, you know, Seems very rigid. I don't know. I never thought it was cute. The Sully County investigator in charge of the investigation that really took him down for the Carroll Duranti described him as

a social chameleon. Which again goes back to this thing that we said he's like when we went to interview him, like the first time between the first time, the first time we came to interview him and then the second time when we came around with a warrant to search his apartment, he had cut his hair slightly differently, combed it slightly differently and looked like a completely different person. And so it was like, and then then he showed up.

We told we gave him a summons to appear and to the for the lineup, the lineup. Yeah. He had grown his his beard out a little bit differently, combed his hair from the other direction, wore very different clothing than the one then he used to wear, he normally wore. And they they'd taken an inventory of his clothes and they're like this, this wasn't clothing that, you know, that was like his clothing that he had in his apartment. So it's like, so basically they're cute and saying he went

out and bought like a costume. Like to be different. Yeah, that's so weird that they, I mean, if anybody was going to be prosecuted, I think the people that let them make a baby on death row should be, you know, part of it. I think that they said that he'd like paid other inmates to like surround him and her and basically they just went up against the wall and just went at it. Isn't that weird? Like that's just like the craziest and then on top of it that she is never came out.

You would think by some point that she would come out and be like, Yep, well, this is what it is, and make some money and then disappear again. You know she's got. The wife or the daughter, The. Daughter. The daughter. From what I understand that daughter just wants nothing to do with it. She just wants the away from the limelight. Can you even imagine like, oh sorry, this is your dad? Like he's. Ted Bundy's kid conceived on death row. Gross.

I can't even. And she had brown, really dark hair 'cause there was pictures of her when she was little. And it's just, yeah, she's kind of surprising. So strange. Like the whole thing is actually really interesting as far as like, how many times he was able to not do what he was supposed to do and just give him the middle finger like over and like, oh, I want a kid. I'm just going to make one. I'm going to jump out this

window. I'm going to just, you know, And even when they caught him, the one time he was, like, laughing, he was like, right. I mean, and I was like, what on earth is he doing? Like, yeah. I mean, he didn't even care. He was like, hey, hey, you know. Is that common knowledge about the window jumping out the window? Do you think people know about that? I don't know if they do, we should probably mention it. I I think it's hilarious.

I mean especially the fact he could have really gotten away. I almost feel like he just did it to be a Dick and because he didn't get far, you know, like. Well, I mean, they didn't they, but I think they picked him up next in Florida though, because he killed more people. Yeah, but why even why? Like, why even mess with that? Get the hell out of Dodge, you know, and, and he's not concerned, you know, back then he could run for Mexico or Canada and really probably get

there. Now that's the thing he could have not only did he not go to Canada and Mexico, that should that was a that's like strange. But then when he got to Florida, he bought a Volkswagen Beetle or he stole a Volkswagen Beetle off of a guy. And it's like, what is it with you, guy? It's like, OK, we get it dude, you you've got like he can only do this with one car because he knows how that car is like or something.

We all. Know but with this guy Captain Borax, he like drove past this garage that he discovered up in Salt Lake. It's a little for a little set off from the from the house where he had the apartment, he said. That's the garage right there where Ted Bundy apparently rented to keep his pickup. And we don't know the owner it's. With the evidence. As far as as far? As with Amy's evidence, yeah. Well, as far as we know, that

truck is still in there. I asked him and I said, Oh my gosh, as far as you know, the truck could be in there, He said. It could be. I'm like. Wow. It said just know and. They, they just didn't want a subpoena for that. Like, I mean, come on now, that's pretty. But apparently they didn't know about the truck until afterwards. But Larry Anderson, the guy who hit who?

The guy who converted Ted Bundy because he baptized Ted Bundy on August 31st, 1975, when he finally had convinced them that he had quit drinking and quit smoking, which were the two reasons why he couldn't get baptized. And he said that when Ted called, called him and he's like called him from jail and he's like, hey, I'm in trouble, I'm in jail. And he said we couldn't believe it. Like jail, Ted, how did you wind up in jail? Teddy Boy, what could you have

possibly done? Did you just smoke a doobie? And he says, get this, They think I'm the Ted Killer. Oh, ridiculous. Come. On Ted and. He's like. I'm I heard the Mormons rallied behind him that they super supported him. They raised, they raised the money to for him to put down 10%, the 10% down he needed for bond. And then he needed and, but then he had to put down collateral and as well.

So he put down the Volkswagen that he then, but before he, but before he could turn it in to get the to, to bring the title back, he said, I'll go get the title, I'll bring it back. He went and got a duplicate title and he brought it back and brought a title and gave one title to the bondsman and took the duplicate title and used it to sell this support 17 year. Old Oh my gosh. Jeez. And told him not to register. It and don't, yeah, don't go

alert anyone. And then on top of it, I wonder what their little church buddies felt about when he was up doing all of his own lawyer work there defending himself, which it was a nightmare and really creepy. It was so creepy. And I mean, especially with the girl that testified that got away. And you could just see it seething from his like, pores. I mean, they had to have known. They had to have known he was guilty. Like. It was so yeah, it. Was that was Carol Duranch? That was Carol.

But here's the thing. When OK, so he calls Larry and tells Larry, you know, that I'm in this trouble. Larry's like, don't you worry. He goes and takes up a collection to get to get to post bail for him. And so they and so they get bail. They post bail. But in the period of time between then when this period of time between when they actually released Ted out on bail, he's trying to hide the car. He and he can't obviously because he's in jail.

So he goes to Larry and he's like, this is where you can find the keys to my Volkswagen in my apartment. I want you to go and take take the Volkswagen and hide it somewhere because I just don't want the police snooping around. And if I can't be there and it's like, don't worry, not a problem. And his missionary hid the car in their garage. Get this. Then the Salt Lake investigators who are investigating, they go

and investigate. It's like to at this, this house where Larry Anderson lives with a bunch of his, his mission buddies and stuff, a bunch of people who went to university, University of Utah with. And he they come in, they come into the house and they're like, we wanted to ask you some questions and that and they're like, what do you know about Ted Bundy's Volkswagen? It's. In my garage. Don't know anything about it. Ted. Ted. Did Ted drive a Volkswagen? No, Ted has a pickup.

See, I think he has a pickup and it's in their garage, their lights. Oh my gosh, they should be in trouble for that man. I mean. And it's the the things that with evidence. And so the guy who's in charge of of the investigation down, Jerry, I'm trying to remember his last name. So this guy, Captain Borax, he tells me he finds out that a guy who's like a collector of Ted Bundy stuff and like interested in Ted Bundy stuff and I think maybe wrote one of the

biographies or something. He pays a lot of money one day to have this lead investigator Jerry, what's his name? I have a guy's name, but has him come out to meet with him and he's like, I have something for you. And he paid a lot of money to have dinner with this guy after he's retired. He's like, I have something for you. And he's like, what? Well, what? He pulls out a leather bag with this with a ski mask and like, and then cuffs and gloves and stuff. And he's like, what is that?

He's like, that's the stuff that got Ted Bundy convicted of, of kidnapping in Utah all these years. I was years ago. I was like, how did you get it? He's like. Why do you have it? Yeah. Yeah, it's like, I'm like, So what? He can just walk in and out with with evidence and he's like, apparently, apparently nobody's looking. At it.

Oh my gosh. Well, and the fact that it's still so many open cases that are unsolved, like if it were just like everybody was, it was all done and everybody was definitely linked and blah, blah, blah on the bodies and OK, but this is technically an open case in many instances, so. Yeah, well, most of his murders, most of his murders are technically unsolved like this. Laurie Amy the MO fits and

everybody assumes everybody. You look her up and you look up who is Laura Amy the every everywhere from Wikipedia to biographers will say 12th victim of Ted Bundy. But that was. Well, and the fact that there was, there could be hair in the hat, there could be skin cells like why would they be messing with something that could be used for later, you know? Right now that we have now that we now that we have more, did more of the stuff. And I tell you about Debbie Kent's Patella, her, her

kneecap, right? That was the only thing. So obviously, like wild animals have gone to her remains. Either that or Ted had chopped her up into pieces. But that doesn't seem consistent with him. He was too much of A germaphobe. And so they take that Patella. You know, what had happened was they had given it to her mother years ago, back in the 70s. And they're like, this is all

that we could find. But we think it's your daughter's and and they're like, so you'll at least have something to, you know, bury or something. And she she kept it in a drawer in her house and for years just kept it. You know, they couldn't, they couldn't bring themselves to bury it. And then it was years later that somebody had asked her. They said, oh, it's too bad. I mean, if you buried that, you know, now we could probably DNA link it. She's like, it's not buried, we have it.

In my jar. Hold on, let me get this out of the kitchen. OK, go for it. So what did you do with it? They they brought the DNA tested it and they and they were able to prove that it was her, that it was her Patella. So it's like that's the closest evidence we have connecting because she was the one that one of the ones that Bundy did it and they but they asked him, OK, now here's the thing. She went missing on November

8th. So that the weeks before, just the few weeks before the the before Laura Amy was discovered and when the Thanksgiving dinner happened at Bundy's place and they asked him when they were interrogating him about it in prison, they said was Debbie Kent alive? Did did you take Debbie Kent home? And he said yes. And they said was she alive that night? And he said she was for part of it. And it's like, OK, so he's basically claimed, yeah, he took her home to this house.

She was UN alive and. Killed her in that apartment that night and and then drove her remains down to Sandpique County and stashed her in a in a Canyon down Sandpique County. Wow. Doesn't fit his MO the. Pink Palace still up? Is it still a thing? I filmed in front of it. I went, I went up there and in the, in the first episode of Blood Atonement on Hellfire agency and you can, and you can see this, this part you can actually see on the YouTube vision version for free.

But of course it's on the expanded version that's on at the agency also. But I, I, I'm like walking, it was like one day in 1974, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 2 Mormon missionaries who knocked on the door of this house. And so like, it's going to Utah and it's the right. Thing could you imagine having to live in the apartment like

there should be? I think they have to give like I know they do for homes, like if you're going to buy one, but I don't know if they have to for rentals. That's actually creepy. Like who's going to live there in that particular one? Yeah, I think that that apartment was unoccupied when they went up there to film in it. But like downstairs and across the way, those apartments are all rented. People live there. That's I. Asked him. I said that cool.

I said that cool goth chick who who was like giving you guys the tour of that of that apartment. He's like tour. There's no tour. And like, oh. She lived there. He's like, she lives downstairs and I'm like, so she wasn't giving you a tour of the apartment? You're like, no, she was curious. Like the rest of us. Like what's going? On here. Oh my gosh. She just rolls up on him and she's like, hey, what are you doing? You want to go? You want?

What do you guys want? We were hoping to go into Ted Bundy's apartment. Let's do it, man. Like, I know a guy, I know the manager, I know a guy that's great. Oh my gosh. Yeah. He. I think of all the people that were ever, I mean, not not ever, ever, but he was one of the most fascinating because of his charisma, because so many people were like, he couldn't pop.

No, that's impossible. He's not like when you look at the Green River Killer person, like say that for example, you look at him and go, Yep, he's a killer. Like on the first time I saw his picture, I was like, yeah, I I could see it. You know, he looks scary and. Or other people, you know, Dahmer, he didn't look right. There's no way he looked right. And so all these different people. But Bundy, he just there was, he just didn't really. It wasn't the same.

But the interesting one of the interesting things in the Mormon side of this, so Ted Bundy gets so Michael priests, if I, if I'm remembering the name correctly, was the stake president who has signed Larry Anderson and John, I forget John's last name to be the state missionaries who convert Ted Bundy in the process of their teaching. Ted the discussions and stopping basically discussion for because he can't, he can't seem to shake the smoking and drinking he gets.

He they, they continue to invite him out to things like a trip. They did a trip up to, I want to say Bear Lake and they rented in a like a little cabin out of Bear Lake, which, you know, lots of people from this area do. That's a that's a very popular thing trip to do. And so they're go, so they rent A like a cabin or like a like a series of cabins, like a little camp out up in at Bear Lake. And Ted's invited.

And the process of that, the Salt Lake police is either the county police, the County Sheriff's Office or the Salt Lake police. But I think it's the Sheriff's Office contacts Michael Priest and asks him and tells him, listen, your trip, we, you can't tell anybody about this. Certainly nobody inside the church, but we are going to be surveilling this trip that you're having up there because one of your, one of the people on this trip is currently a

person of interest in a murder. And it's like what? And they're like, we don't know. We don't know, but we think that this the one of the people inside, this may be the guy who's going around killing these girls. Here's my question for you. You get this information from the this dude. Do you still go on the trip? Because I'm out, I'm staying. Home. Home, there's no. Way. The state president's not going on the trip.

The only people going on the trip are these 20 something girls and these 20 something guys and Ted Bundy, all of them members of the church, all of them well known to each other, and then this guy, Ted Bundy, and they're just like. And you don't sound the alarm like, hey, my people might be in danger, you know? But they told them specifically not to. So I was like, Oh my gosh.

Oh my gosh. And then other people, other people from the from that, from that trip said that they noticed that they were cars following them. And they kept pointing out, it's like, gosh, I'm just, you know, a guy could get a paranoid, you know, idea that he was being followed with that car. And it's like all the time the police, I'm trying to remember them blanking on the guy's name. The the officer who was staking out how to stake out of Bundy's

house. He, he, he commented that once Bundy came out and stood out on the lawn out in the sun with like nothing but his shorts on, shorts and T-shirts or something, and just looking up and down the street like he was totally confident, like nothing was wrong and, and he's like

back. And then we had to deal a deal with the local dealership that we would come get cars from them that we would put, you know, government plates on and we would drive them and change them as we drove up and down the street when we were doing a stakeout so that people wouldn't realize we were surveilling them. And he's like, so we would do this.

We would go and get one of these cars and we would drive up and down the street, park for a while, sit and, you know, read the pretend to be reading the paper and then go down, get another car and do it again. And all of this just to just so that, you know, nobody would notice. And then when I was talking to this guy again, this researcher, and he said, I was talking to these to these people who lived in the house. And they said, oh, yeah, I

remember that. I remember how the police used to drive up and down the street in different cars like, well, and, and we would just stand there in the window going, what the hell do they? Who the hell do they think they're playing? They're like, oh, here they come. Hold on. Yeah, here they come, Janice. Here they're. They're definitely here today. That's hilarious. Oh my. God, they're so clever.

So and then this I told you about that investigator Chariot, can't remember his name, can't believe it. He did an interview in Captain Borax's where in in his car and he's like, so I went up to he's like, I went up to University of Utah. I was stuck. I was staking out Ted Bundy and he's like, and he made me almost right away. He's like, I'm pretty good at following people. I'm pretty good at it.

But Ted, he's like paranoid and he like instantly makes me and I'm like, and so I like wandered off like what a oh, look at what's that over there, you know? And he's like, like wandering around University of Utah's campus and he goes and he says and Bundy was like on his ass, like right behind him. And so he like picks up pace and he picks up pace. And Bundy's picking up pace and coming up along behind him. Oh my gosh. So he goes up. Around, he just likes to mess

with people, you know that. I just think he was like that. He was very arrogant, like you said. I mean he's like he's I'm being followed by police. I'm going to go confront them. And so he goes and he rounds about round the corner of this building. Now he doesn't, he's not armed at the time, strangely enough. He's just, you know, checking the guy out. And so he goes up and goes, he's in plain clothes, obviously. And he goes around the corner of this building.

And he says, and as soon as Ted Bundy comes around this corner, I, I had pressed up against the wall and I snuck up right behind him and I took my finger and I put it right in the small of his back and said, don't move. And he's like, why are you following me? He's like, why are you following me? And and he's like, you don't listen, you don't want any, you don't want to mess with me, Mr. I'm a dangerous person. And you know something like

this. And he's like, I just want to know what the hell you want from me, man. And he's like, you're following me and he's like, just back off. And he's like, I'm going to, I'm going to back off real quickly here, but you don't you go following me And he like takes off. Oh my gosh. He's like, this is all I was armed with. My finger watch out, I'm dangerous. He probably was dangerous without any any arming 'cause he

he liked a bludgeon. So. But there was another one another the guy who who's talking about how he used to, he used to stake out Bundy with the the cars. He said Bundy I whenever Bundy I would follow him when he was in his Volkswagen, he'd make me right away and I it's like, why was this guy so smart? He's so clever. Isn't until later we find out no, they weren't very good at disguising themselves.

He said that Bundy started like he pulled over his car and then as I was coming as I and so I slowed down to just kind of like pretend to be like looking for a parking space or something. He said Bundy got when reached into his car and grabbed a camera and pulled it out and went straight and went straight up to the car and start shooting pictures of me in the driver's

seat of this car. And he said and, and he said as soon as he had that camera pointed at me, I gave him the finger and tried to run him over. He like hit the accelerator, the cop hit the accelerator and he and he jumps out of and jumps out of the way and he and he jumps out of the way of the car obviously so it doesn't kill him and starts screaming fuck you, man, and starts, you know, giving him the finger and he's like giving him the finger.

Oh my gosh, he has to be the most entertaining like for the dumb cops in Utah. Like back then, maybe not all cops now, but they sound, like you said, like a bunch of Barneys. Yeah. I mean, it had to be fun. Like, I'm sure they were like, yeah, let's go mess with Ted today. But and, and, and that was the interesting thing is that like, so they spent all that time looking for the car, right?

The car is always described as a light colored car until they actually get it. And then it's described as a white car. And it had different and it had a tear in the back seat. But then after they actually found the car after it had been purchased by the boy down in Midvale, it didn't have a tear in the back seat. And so they were wondering if they got the right car. And this is another thing Captain Borax brought to me. It's like something you don't read anywhere is Ted Bundy would

customize cars a lot. And there's no history about it. He had some kind of habit. And so, but one of the police officers said there's a chop shop downtown in Salt Lake that we've always known was a little bit shady and Ted and he's like, I followed Ted Bundy there one day with this car. And he's like he used to do. Apparently he used to repaint the car, switch out the seats in the car, switched out the the switched out the hubcaps on the car or the rims or one or the

other. So it looked like a different car. And he's just like, I was changing it. You know, it's just like his appearance. He was he. He wanted to be a chameleon. And then it goes back to the evidence again, like if he's smart like he was, he was very smart. They said his IQ was off the rails like when they measured him.

And I believe it because like, you think about it, you're going to get rid of the C if it got like maybe it got extra nasty one time or maybe he, the person was a little more decomposed. Like, I'm thinking about it like, you know, logistically when you're moving bodies and it depends on the time frame, it can get really bad. And so it makes sense he would need a new seat, you know, or no seat, whatever.

And, and it would, you know, yeah, it would make sense because, OK, so while they're waiting, while OK, in the period time when Ted Bundy's in jail waiting to be able to post bond, his at the day after they arrest him because he gets caught of all things, in a traffic incident where he was chasing a couple of girls in a car through a neighborhood. And she goes straight past a car, a parked car that looks just like any other car on the street.

Turns out that car is the personal car of a Utah State trooper who's on shift right then filling out reports in his car in front of his house. And he's like, wow, going a little fast there, guys. He's basically writing up reports. He'd go, he would drive up and down the street pulling over drunk drivers. And so he he's filling out reports for for drunks that he's pulled over that night. And he, and this car comes screaming by and right behind it is this Volkswagen.

And he is interviewed later by my friend Captain Borax. And he said, I saw it and I said, my neighbor had a car, a Volkswagen Beetle, just like that. And I said, oh, look at that. He got it up and running and he's like, 'cause it's been broken down for weeks. And I looked at him like, why is he going so fast? And so I'm like, I, I, I don't care if he is my neighbor, I'm

going to have to pull him over. And he starts driving while they're, while they're talking about this, this years later, this is like back in 2015, I want to say 2016. He's he's like, we'll go down there right now. And he's driving down the road. He's like the guy who lives right there. And he's like, and then so sister so and so lived over there and sister and brother so and so lived over there. And you know, his wife passed away a few years ago like this old Mormon.

Oh my gosh, she's like, yeah, that's fine. And then what it like you said about this truck, like they just left that they but they obviously, OK, so they're chasing him, they're watching him, they're doing all this stuff, but then they're just like evidence. Meh, we don't need that. Well, here's the wild thing. OK, so they didn't have anything on him that he's been he's been suspicious for a while. They've they've been looking into him for a while at this point, but they can't find any

evidence on him, right? And especially because Laura Amy's evidence is missing and he start this guy, this, this state patrolman, the highway patrolman, he starts following this car, thinking it's his neighbor until the car pulls up to a stop sign and it says stopping. It speeds up and takes off and flips around, you know, flips a corner. And he's like, no, so he pulls off behind him and turns off his headlights. The cop does and starts following him with his

headlights off. And he's like the and Bundy's trying to dodge weave in and out, in and out of this neighborhood. The guy's like, this guy doesn't know this is my neighborhood. He's like keeping pace with him all the way. And then so they do this, they have this high speed car chase through a residential

neighborhood. And finally Bundy pours out onto a Main Street and immediately pulls into an abandoned gas station that's totally dark, Pulls out underneath the the pump, you know, whatever you call it, right? Pulls up along the where the pumps go and turns off the car and just rolls in with his lights off and everything just sitting there and the and this state and this highway patrolman pulls up, pulls in behind him, pulls up just with his lights on. Like what are you doing?

And then he calls on his radio's like, guy, I'm going to need backup over here. He gets another patrol car comes in from the other direction and shining their lights in there. And Bundy gets out of the car and out of the Volkswagen and starts walking over like nonchalant to the police officer and the police officer. Hey, what you doing, Buck? Yeah. Anything I can help you with there, officer? The officer says he turns out he he keeps the lights on his car, takes his pistol and sticks it

out the window. And he says that's far enough. Stop right there. He's like, whoa, what's going on? He's like, you just need to stop right there. Don't make another move. And then he gets out of the car and he's like, I just don't, I'm a little worried. I don't know what's going on. Who are you people? Why are you, you know, what's with the patrol car over there? And he's like, you know exactly what's going on. Put your hands on the car.

Don't move. And he's like, and and he's like, OK, so he identifies that he's Theodore Bundy. And then he, you know, goes through his registration and everything. And he started and he looks in the in the car and he sees that there's this tear across the back seat. And then slumped over the back seat is the passenger seat from the car, from the, from the, from the passenger side of the car.

And he's and he's like, OK. And he sees that underneath that passenger seat, slumped over the back seat of the car is a leather bag, like a doctor's bag that's a little bit open. And he says, can I have your permission to look through your car? Can I see your doctor's bag, Lawyer Bundy? Like what the hell are you doing with that? Right. And he's like he's like why? And he's like, I don't need to answer you why. I'm just asking you can I have your permission? It's like I can go take you

down. We can get AI can get a warrant if I need to, but can I have your permit? But instead, why don't know, you just give me permission to look through your car. This is the point where Bundy should have said no, Go get the warrant, let's do it. No kidding, you're screwed. But he does, he wants to look innocent. So he's and he's arrogant, like you say he's like like. Whatever, whatever could you be thinking? I'm Ted Bundy. I'm a good guy. I'm a good cook.

Ask anybody I know. I'm an amazing cook. I go, I I've been baptized, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I can't be a man. He wouldn't say that. He'd be like, I am in the 6th Ward, I am in the 6th Ward. You know Bishop Jenkins, he knows me. You know who I am. Oh my gosh. And then if he was dating someone nice, he would be like and I date the Morgan's daughter. So he goes up. So he goes up to the guys. So he's like, yeah, you can let,

you can look at my car. He goes over and he and he has to work the car. The passenger door open because it doesn't open right away. And it's like, you having trouble there? And I got it. I got it. I got it. Like finally is able to work the door open, pulls out this doctor's bag and inside he finds a ski mask, a pair of pantyhose with eye holes cut out on them, A a pair of handcuffs that and keys that match the handcuffs that were on.

Carol Duranch, remember that she put handcuffs on her and and then she made it. When she took off, she still had those those handcuffs on her. The other thing is that a key matching those handcuffs was found in the grass of the high school where Debbie Kent was kidnapped. And it was just like thrown in the grass and which is another strange thing. This is another one of these strange coincidences that people said for years they just found a key little itty bitty. And then.

And no one cared too. Like, yeah. And so it's like, well, well, I mean, somebody cared enough to say this is the this was being carried by Debbie Kent's attacker. Well, you don't know that. I mean, we're just assuming. I mean, it could be anybody's handcuff key. Like nonsense. People have kinks. You know, but the loose, but the loosey goosey way that all this evidence is being handled, there's been a long time suspected that maybe that was

totally planted after the fact. And it's like, Oh yeah. Then we found this key. It was at Debbie Kent's play that the play where Debbie Kent was picked. Up in the grass, in the like a needle. Literally a needle in a haystack. But what about we can't? OK, we kept the key, but we lost the plaster tire thingy. This giant. I mean, those are big. Those are like giant. But I remember, I remember the plaster. It does probably, you know, like they.

I I do remember the plaster cast and it was the same tires that were on the Volkswagen like on the Volkswagen ear fucking later. OK, sure. Right. Yeah, and something about his shoe, wasn't it? Wasn't there something with his shoe and tread marks too? I can't remember. I don't. Remember anything about his shoe? I can't remember specifically on that, but like, they had enough on him for a hot minute to be

like, OK, cut it out. They probably go to save some people's lives, you know, and, and so he couldn't keep doing this on and on and on. And, and that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And I'm sure that's why they're CYA ING. We call it CYA ING. You know now because cover your ass, right? Because they've got to do something. They look like ridiculous. And so of course they're like, oh, handcuff key though. Handcuff key. We're smart. Look over here.

Then the what? The guy who gets them? But the guy who gets the goods on Bundy is the guy who, sitting there filling out his drunk driver reports when a car comes swing by and he's like, hey, not. What the Hell's going on there is children crossing. That's right, this is a neighborhood with families. It's 2:00 in the morning. Morning slowed down. What the hell are you doing? You obviously drunk. You kids playing your rock'n'roll music with your Beatles. And so he's he's going, he's

going to track this guy down. Oh, funny exchange that happened by the way. He's talking to Ted Bunny. He's like, where have you been tonight? And he's like, I've been at the movies and he's like, oh really? Where what theater were you? What movie theater were you in? This is a point where any said 20 is a one year, not quite a year lost first year law student, right. And he's, this is where you're supposed to say I'm not talking to you without an attorney present.

No, I, I, but instead he's too arrogant. He's like, Oh, yeah, I went and he's like, I went and saw Towering Inferno. Towering Inferno. Oh, that's that new movie with, what's his name, McQueen. Steve McQueen. Yeah. You seen it? It's good. I haven't seen it yet. What movie theater did you go to? It's like, I was was the drive in? He's he said it's a little late to go to a movie, isn't it? And he's like, well, it was at the drive in. The drive in, really.

And he's like, which drive in? There's two and he's and he's like, Oh yeah, they're on Redwood Rd. It's like, what if I were to tell you that that's my beat where I drive picking up drunk drivers And he's like, so he's like, what if I told you that I know for a fact that there are three cowboy movies playing at the at, at the both of those theaters? And no, and Towering Inferno isn't there. It's like, I don't know what I

would. I don't know what to tell you because I saw Towering Inferno. He's like, interesting. And what was the other movie playing with it, by the way? Yeah, yeah. Why? So, OK, but but I tell you that to tell you this. OK, so the the day after, so that guy Hayward, I want to say his name, Bob Hayward, his brother. He's not the only cop in the family, as is common.

That happens, right? His brother is the officer Hayward who's in charge of Ted Bundy over at Bundy's case down at Murray Police Department, at the the Ted killer. And he called and he picks him. He picks up the phone when he takes Bundy in for possession of burglary tools. And he said and basically says, hey. And he's like, do you know what time time it is? He's like, hey, yeah, shut up. Hey, listen, you'll never believe who I just brought in for possession of burglary

tools. And he's like, I, I, I don't know. And I don't care. He's like, do you know if a Theodore Culpup or Bundy? What? And he's like, yeah, didn't you tell me you were following a guy like that? He's like, yeah, I just picked him up with a bag, with a ski mask, handcuffs. He's like, oh, we're going to be. Down there, like I don't touch anything, don't mess it up. Yeah, right. So he so he gets this, this other officer that they've had surveilling Bundy up up at the Pink Palace.

Well, I call it the Pink Palace. And he and he, he goes up to him. What's what's he saying? Oh, he called. He, he contacts the Murray Police Department and he says to the other guy, he's like, hey, that girl you were that escaped the Ted killer. What's her name? Carol Duranch. Everybody loves this girl. It's the first thing everybody mentions about Carol Duranch is, oh, she's tall and she's gorgeous. And he's like and he's like. She had like a cool car too, right?

Then she had like a cool car. She. Had a. She had a underbird I want to say. And her last name is kind of hilarious. I'm just saying like garage like. She had a Camaro, a maroon Camaro, and so, and she was very proud of it, obviously. But so he calls, he's like, can I get that girl's number? And can I get your permission to contact her? And he's like, why? And he's like, I think she'll be

able to pick out Bundy's car. And I know for a fact that it's that it's parked up in front of his house right now because I've been surveilling it. And before he can get out on bond and move it, I want to, I want her to look at it. So he comes, He's like, yeah, sure. Here's the girl's number. Girl gets the first thing in the morning. Just got a police a call from police officer. She's already had bad experiences with police officers taking her for rides.

But she he says, hey, any chance I could take you to lunch? She's like, I guess why? Maybe, yeah. He's like, oh, I have questions for you about the about the man who tried to kidnap you. Oh, lead with that guy. OK. Yeah, sure. Pick me up. We'll go to lunch. Can I take you to lunch first? Like no, you're creepy and all weird. Everything that gets mentioned around Carol Durantz in this whole story is creepy of these men who are all about oh, and she was so good looking.

And I'm like, hey, do you want to like, can you know? Like yeah, she was almost killed. Can you just help the girl? Like almost raped and murdered. Come on guys, shill. Come on, no. Especially if you're going to. We're like, well, you made it so. Especially when the next. To go to eat. The next line is OK, don't bother getting in your car. I'll come by your house and pick you up in my car. Oh yeah. So it's like, OK, so he comes by her house, picks her up and

takes her to lunch. He takes her up to the avenues, and instead of going straight to lunch, he pulls up and stops behind a Volkswagen Beetle in front of this pink palace with Carol Durant, the girl who got away, sitting in the passenger seat of his patrol car. And she's like, OK, weird, weird. And he's like, what's? Happening. What's weird? It's like, what are we doing here that you wanted to go to lunch? And he's like, I just thought maybe you might recognize that. Look over there.

Title that. Title that. And she's like looks, and she looks through the window. She's looking through the windshield at the back of this world, playing. Beetle. So funny. And she looks in, she's like that tear on the back seat. And he's like, what about it? And she's like, that's the car and he's like, you sure, 'cause it's a different color. And she's like, no, I recognize that that tear in that back seat, that's the car.

And he's like, anybody could point at something they're looking at and say, that's the thing. He's like, describe something else in the interior of the car. And she starts telling him about the gear shift. She says telling him about the car, the seat that doesn't fit quite right. She tells him about, you know, she tells him about the, about the, the interior of the car And he goes up and he takes note and takes notes of what she's able to identify without being able to see inside the car.

And then he's. Like and it was right on. It was dead on, she knew. Everything about well, he hated her. She's great. I freaking love her. If you watch her in court, you guys, you're going to, it's like the best thing ever because she's like, she is. No, she's not afraid. She's not a little wuss. She's like, come at me bro. Like she don't care. And then in the midst of all this, no, no members of the church are suspicious of anything except for State President Michael Priest.

And he, they eventually they convict Ted Bundy of the attempted kidnapping of Carol Duranch. And in in while he's in jail, while he's in prison and, you know, planning to appeal, of course, as you do, he, Michael Priest shows up with his wife and as as a visitor and asks to see him. He's like, hello, Ted, you Remember Me? I'm President, Priest. It's like, listen, Ted, this is our sensitive issue to to bring

up with you. But in your absence, we convened a court of love on your behalf, and you've been excommunicated from the Church. A court of love. Yeah, I mean, I think they have problems. I think that was back when they called the disciplinary council and the days when I got my letter. We call it a court of love. But yeah, you told he's like, yeah, you've been excommunicated from the church, I hate to tell you. And he's like, Bundy was just like, you know what, That's fine.

Look, I understand you guys are freaking out, but I'm innocent. Obviously I'm innocent. I'm appealing this right now. I don't know if you know this, but I'm a law student. He loves to flaunt that, too. He's like the guy Bob Hayward takes. Bob Hayward takes his pen and takes the that those handcuffs, the same type that Carol Duranch was had on her wrist and holds them up to him. So, and he's like, I'm a law student. OK. All right, he's like. Did they teach you about handcuffs or what?

Like what? Every. Every law student needs to know how to use handcuffs. Obviously we represent criminals. Just in case, right? Just in case you have to ever, I don't know, chain somebody up because that's not your job. And what, that's nothing to do with anything. That's a bailiff's job. So weird out another thing. So another interesting story. And this is now tangential.

The same week, the same month that Laurie Amy's been missing, a girl from who's a student at University of Utah, she's a pharmacy student, is standing in front of a bus stop waiting for a bus. We now know this more than 40 years later. That woman's name is Rhonda Stapley. Now she says this cute boy in this in this Volkswagen pulls up while she's standing at this bus stop and he and he pulls up and he's, you know, talking sweet to her and says, you know, why don't you get in the car?

Let me it's cold out there. Let me give you a ride. And she's like, oh, no, I I just live here. I go to school here at the at universe at the university. It's like, what do you think I'm doing here? I'm a student. I'm in the law school. And she's like, oh, the lawyer, like, I'm a pharmacy tech. And he's like, and she's like, I guess, you know, he's one of my fellow alumni. OK, fine. He looks. Safe. He looks safe. Right. He looks like a good clean cut member of the church.

Good priesthood holder magnifies his con. And so she gets into the Volkswagen and he's like, yeah, let me take you to let me take you home. Which direction is it? It's off this direction. Well, let's go for a little ride first. And he starts flirting with her and she says that while she he was, she wasn't used to boys giving her much attention. So she was a little bit flustered. And then he steers her up into a Canyon.

I, she doesn't say this much, but I, I'm deducing it must have been City Creek Canyon. But so he steers her up into a Canyon and she says she, she realizes this boy wants to make out with me. And so she starts to think. She says she started to think about how she was going to explain to him that she's a virgin, she's a good Mormon girl, and she plans to keep it that way. So, you know, strictly above the bell business. And the. And so they pull over into a

clearing of trees. And she said it was then that he leaned over to her. He turned the car off and this clearing of trees in the Canyon and that. He turned and twisted in his seat and suddenly his demeanor turned very dark and almost. Like our guy? Almost like he was disgusted. And he leaned, she said she, he leaned into her like he was going to kiss her. And instead he said, guess what, I'm going to kill you now. And he took his bare hands and strangled her until she lost

consciousness. And then but then as as the events where on she came to and realized that he had revived her while she while he was in the process of taking advantage of her in the car. And she says he did this multiple times over and over and over again just to tease her and, and, and just to make it clear to her that he was having his way with her before he killed her. And she says that she finally came to real and realized that in the process that he was distracted, some movement or

something going outside the car. She's been choked out several Times Now and she's completely disoriented. She can, she, she doesn't even realize that her pants, her, her jeans are pulled down around her ankles. She doesn't even know she's not in possession of her whole faculties yet. And she said that she she just knew that he was getting out of the car, distracted with something outside the car. And she rolled out through the open door, which happened to be open and made a run for it.

And it was as she was making a run for it that she tripped and fell flat on her face. And that's how she figured out that her that her pants were down around her ankles. And she doesn't even look back to see if he's following her. She just tries to pull her pants up as best she can and book it into the and book it into the woods. She said that she remembered getting to the river.

There's this fast flowing river for this is the reason why I say it must have been City Creek canyons because of course City Creek is just a trickle down in the city, but it starts way up there, the head watch. And so there's she's getting. She says she threw herself into the Rapids to get away from him and just to start rolling down along. And then she was just like, in and out of consciousness from that point on. And she finally makes her way home. You know, she climbs out of the

water. She makes her way home, going every which way except on the road for fear that he's going to be up and going up and down the road looking for her. She's able to walk home in the night sopping wet. Half strangled and almost drowned. And and raped. And she says that she got that. She finally gets home and she doesn't tell a soul. And people have challenged her on this. People, OK, come on, don't capitalize on Zen. She's like, look, I, I, I don't ask anybody to believe me, but

it's the truth. It, this happened to me. And she said when people ask her, why didn't, why did she keep it a secret for 40 years? Why didn't you come forward when these other girls were, you know, murdered? You could have helped. You could have done this, she said in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, it when you have sex, you are a bad person and it doesn't matter

that you were raped. And she said this was at the time the teachings of the prophets were that it was better to lose your life trying to ward off your attacker than to survive, because that meant that she if you survived. You had to live with it. That you. Had as a tainted well and they used to tell us like the sexual sin is the only sin next to murder and like even masturbation, all this stuff. And so I get it because you know, they used to tell us, oh you're you.

It's far better for you. Even like with me when I got married, I was so young, but I lost my virginity to him. They were like, far better for you to get married at 17 than to not get married. And, you know, I think the church has really seen the divorce rate skyrocket because of these teachings. And a lot of people used to kill themselves all kinds of bad stuff, you know, because of this stuff. It it's just not healthy

teaching. How many broken marriages and you know, children from broken homes come from people, gay people being told to marry as if they are straight and it'll work out. All of it. Yeah. Well, same even with straight, straight, gay, whichever, like they are, they push that and you feel like you kind of. I mean, my husband was 26. I was 17. I had no business getting married to that man. Like, really, I I was a kid. Yeah. I was still in high school.

I was supposed to be my senior prom, you know, and I wasn't. I was off getting married because how dare I? I wasn't pregnant. I just dared to do the deed, you know? And I get where she's coming from. Like people might say, oh, that's a crazy story, maybe where you live. But where we live, yeah, not so much. I could. In the in this episode, in in the first episode of Blood of Blood tone and I talk about this, I said, look, this, this seems strange to you.

Let me read something to you. And I opened up The Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W Kimball, who was prophet of the church when this happened. And he had published that book when he was still an apostle. And right there that that passage is is right there just like that. It is better to lose your life. I I wish I had it right in front of me, but in the. Than to live with it.

It's better to live, he says it. It's better to lose your life to save your virtue than to lose 1's virtue without a fight, is the way he describes it. And so she realizes that that's how she's going to be thought of if she ever tells people that she was nearly raped and killed by this man who said I'm going

to kill you now. And she was terrified for 40 years until she finally came out and was able to say that I, I know that this man did the things to these women because he did it to me. Wow. Well, and it's sad that, you know, we still live in this time frame that the church hasn't changed a whole awful lot on on their teachings. So I don't do that. Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean I, I think other

Christians are great. If you need that accompaniment and you need that for your happiness, that's fine. I'm not. I'm not saying don't, but look at the way the crumbling of Rome is happening right now, OK? Like maybe just pray and do yourself a favor. And even if you go to church, don't idolize men. Men are men. And I mean, it could be women, people will say people, and I said men, 'cause we both know the church is very patriarchal. So which has held.

But even then all these changes are coming, coming, coming, coming, coming. And we just sit here and we're watching it circling the drain. You know it, It's, it's not good. And I just say, just remember you, you have another way you can, you can do it on your own. God gave us the book. The book is good. Read it. If you don't want to read it and you want to go the other way, you can do that too and say it

none of it matters. But I don't know that believing in a sinking ship is a good idea. Well, you know, especially when they, I don't know if you saw there's a report that now that says that the single largest group religious affiliation group in the United States now is officially none. And it's a, there's the, the deconstruction is real. Now, how much of that is

atheists like myself? I, I, I didn't maintain a lot, but how much of that is just people just sick and tired of being in any way affiliated with anything that happens inside the four walls of a church or anything with a, you know, and. I've been called a Pagan over it because I just believe in I, I said I like to go outside in the mountains and read my Bible and somebody called me a Pagan and I think they were kidding, but I just was like, hey, I'll take it.

Like I'll take that and reading my Bible by myself over whatever is going on right now. It doesn't look good like. Tell me this person was a Mormon because the iron. I'm sure they were. I'm certain it was some quote they left for me. And I thought, Oh my gosh, I said I was reading the Bible, you know, like the the Bible and they were like, oh, that's pagans.

Pagans do that outside. Call me a Pagan while you're standing there with with all the people, all the ex Mormons around you going how many wives does God have? You don't talk about that sacred. Well, put on your, put on your apron and start doing this number. And tell me what I am do the paleo. Paleo. Pagan. Tell me, Tell me that's not Pagan, right? OK, then, you Masonic friend. All right, we're dorks. I think this was good. I think this was a good one. And I.

I hope. I feel like it was like super informative and a lot of stuff you said I didn't know about the cars and the Barney Fife. I didn't know this, so that was great there's. The Barney Fife like. We need, we need to think of a Mormon Barney Fife name like Hubert, Hubert's Pile or I. Oh my gosh. And so should we tease them for the next time? Do we know what we're doing next? OK, I can talk about a few things. Let's see. OK, So what? Color shall we? I could, we could.

So there was a guy. I have a podcast that's basically edited. It'll be going up soon and we can talk about it a little bit more in depth. So can I say about the Charlie Chaplin's chauffeur and his assistant? No, yeah, it's got murder and mayhem. It does have murder. And mayhem. The next question is, does it have Mormons? It does. It's our bill. Murder, Mormons and mayhem is what? We're about here and Charlotte Naplin of all people. I did not.

I did not know this. I'm going to have to do some studying. Very interesting story. All right, well, we will leave it on that teaser, let them know where they can find you and all of your work so that if and I'll do vice versa. Great. You can always find me at hellfire.agencytheresno.com. the.agencyisthe.com because it's not 1994. It's not Al Gore's Internet. The Internet belongs to everyone. Hellfire dot agency.

Awesome, and I am Heidi Love. I'm at the Unfiltered Rise wherever podcasts are served and Unfiltered Rise for Patreon if you want to see these awesome shows. So better find us there and find us quick because I think we do a pretty good job. So have a blessed day. And for everyone out there, just remember it's all falling apart. You might want to do your due diligence. Or else. Mud. Love. Yes. Bye, bye. Thanks, Eddie.