Vivianne and Lance | 5

Hey listeners Jessica here. Be sure to check out new episodes of Undetermined every Tuesday for free wherever you get your podcasts. For early and ad free listening, check out Tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals interviewed and participating in the show, and do not represent those

She told me about it to some degree before they came to stay in my home. I never really investigated it. I never really asked her more about it. He is a very pushy person. Around a person like that, you hesitate to wait into any conversation, much less something you're not interested in. I think she was under a lot of pressure to bring money in and to provide, but at the same time not allowed to leave, because I think it's part of what held her in place after

We all have our secrets, right, the things that only select few know about, or that we keep tucked away for no one to ever see or know. Most of us are fortunate enough to be in control of our secrets, our narrative. For a long time. That's what Jessica did. She had her secrets, and for various reasons, she kept

When she first started telling me about it, I just thought they were bored. I thought they were a couple in their forties. Maybe the spark was gone. They spend too much time together, so maybe they were just trying to spice things up. I was like, you know, whatever, do you if that's entertaining to you. I didn't know that it was really for the income the way I think it turned out to be, so, even when they were in my home, I never knew their stage names.

While Maria was able to keep it all lighthearted, even joking about it, Learning that Jessica was performing sex shows online for money was a pretty startling peak into her life with Justin, and it was certainly a new revelation to her family. But Maria thinks it was more about control.

I think that she would have done anything that he wanted her to do because she really just wanted to make him happy. I'm not going to completely alleviate her of all responsibility, because you know, she was an adult, so it's possible that she wanted to experiment with the sexual stuff that they were doing online, as possible that she wanted to experiment with drugs. But that was not

To friends and family, Jessica may have become somewhat of a shadow of herself, but she was still Jessica, the girl they'd known and loved for most of her life well before the camming. But to a whole community online, she was known as Vivian and her partner was Lance. These were Jessica and Justina's camming names. So what exactly is camming?

Well, it's different for everyone but me and my wife specifically. We just go on camera and people will pay us for our time. So if we're camming for an hour for a specific person, then we request a specific dollar amount per minute, and that's how we get paid. People are viewing us on the screen. We have a camera in front of us that's looked up to the computer and it's live, so everything we do is live.

This is Ken, well that's his camming name, alongside his wife, Barbie. Yeah, Ken and Barbie.

I am Ken and my wife is Barbie.

And we met Justin and Jessica through the camming community.

In fact, as far as we know, they are the only camers to have ever met up with Vivian and Lance inside their home and saw them together as a couple, But it's an experience they regretted almost from the start. More on that in just a minute. The young couple got into camming after he lost his other online fortune.

I made a pretty hefty fortune on bitcoin when I was in high school, and being young and having a decent fortune, you don't really know how to spend it. So me and my wife we dug ourselves in a hole living in Miami. We needed something to keep us going and keep us alive and off the streets, so we chose to start camming, and it worked out really well for us, so we just stuck with it ever since.

We really enjoyed the job because we get to spend.

All of our time together, one of us just having to leave the house go to work and things like that.

So it works for us.

So, you know, immediately a bunch of cam people started reaching out to us, like, oh, Wow, you're going to do so.

Good at this.

You're gonna you're gonna be able to retire by the time you're thirty, blah blah blah, And you know, just like trying to flatter us, trying to get close to us.

And we thought that was normal. And it turns.

Out that for the most part, that a lot of them were trying to use us because we were naive to the canning community and how it works.

So people were trying to get us to.

Help them in different ways, and it just seemed to us like everyone's out for themselves and trying to like make their into the deal better.

Me and my wife, we kind of stay in our own little bubble. We don't really talk to anyone else.

Kin says that while there is a darker side to the camming community, he and Barbie stay away from that. It's kind of how the community works. You only do what you feel comfortable with.

I mean, every single person out there has a different experience camming. One experience is not the same as another's. Some people have really bad experiences camming, and some people have really good experiences camming. There's definitely some bad stigma about the sex industry, and you know, for what it's worth, I'm sure a lot of it's true.

I'm not denying that.

But that's why we stick to camming, because we get to create our own rules and boundaries. So if anyone steps over those boundaries, we can put an end to it by a click of a button. If we feel offended or threatened in some way, then all we got to do is hit the block button and they disappear.

We do this together, and only together.

We don't talk to any other cameras, we don't post on so media really. Ever, we just realized that it's best to stay in your own little bubble and not try to get too far out there and meet too many people, because so far, all the people that we've met, they've ended in like really crazy experiences.

One of those crazy experiences for Ken and Barbie was meeting Vivian and Lance at their home in New Orleans. When we sat down with Ken, he shared his personal experience and opinions from that in person meeting, and from here on out in this episode, we'll go back to referring to them as Jessica and Justin.

They were trying to get close to us early on because they knew that we would be successful at this job, and from the very beginning things turned out really well for us. We didn't really have to worry about money or anything like that, and they just kind of reached out to us, and then they started to call more and try to reach out to us more. They were really really easy to get along with, mostly her Jessica.

She was really easy to get along with.

She just kind of reeled us in and gave us someone to talk to that was in the industry.

We were new to it.

We didn't know anything. So if we had any kind of questions, they would help us out with that, and we just talked to them. I don't know, I'd say maybe once.

Or twice a month she would call.

As that went on, they started feeling closer to us and whatnot. So I guess they felt comfortable asking us for money here and there. They would ask us for like one hundred bucks, and we didn't know what their situation was. And I'm too nice sometimes if people need help, I'm usually willing to help. So whenever they had asked me for money, I just did it. I didn't think anything of it. I knew that they had a daughter, and I knew that they.

Probably weren't doing that well. I don't remember.

Them telling us that they had a job, so camming was how they were making money, and every single time they cam they weren't really doing that well, that kind of made us sad. So yeah, we would help every now and then. And I don't regret it.

It's whatever.

I just wish I would have known them better before we really got involved with their lives.

But their meetup wasn't really something they had planned. It was just by happenstance. They'd driven to Pensacola, Florida to meet with a friend of Barbie's, but the friend never showed.

We were like, what the heck?

We drove all the way down here, so what could we do to make it a trip that's not wasted? And we remember that Jessica and Justin they.

Lived in New Orleans and that was just a little bit farther.

So we called them up.

And we asked them if it'd be cool if we came down to hang out.

Before they even arrived at Jessica and Justin's house, they see their first red flag.

We were basically asking them if it was cool if we come by, and that's whenever they started texting us. And then they randomly texted us a pipe and I didn't know if it was a crack pipe or a met pipe. I don't know the difference. If there is a difference or what. But they sent me a pipe that looked like you smoke drugs out of it. And when they did that, we were like, what is this.

Like, we thought that they were joking.

If we were texting someone, we didn't know if it was Justin or Justica. We had no idea, and I'm pretty sure sometimes she would act like her whenever he was texting us, Like sometimes we detext We're like, this feels like it's Justin texting us right now. We didn't think anything of that until we met them, and then we saw how he was. It all happened so gradually, it's like they just reeled us in.

When Ken and Barbie pull into the driveway at their Lakeview home, everything seems fine at.

First, everything's cool.

At first, he kind of looks like he's cracked out, which we thought was weird at first, but then we kind of just blew it off because we didn't want to be mean.

Or we just didn't want to make a scene or make them feel uncomfortable.

Justin's di me is something Ken remembers vividly.

He looked like he was on some kind of drug that was like speed, Like it was making him talk really fast and like make really weird movements and stuff. And we didn't know if that was just his personality or if he was on drugs.

We didn't know. He told us he took Adderall prescribed adderall, so we didn't know if it was that either.

But anyway, we came into this whole situation non judgmental.

We just like, this is our first time meeting him.

We just wanted to meet him, and we didn't want to make a big deal out of it.

Ken and Barbie quickly realize they're not the only other ones in the house. Soon they'd meet Justin's daughter and noticed that his elderly father was there too. Though they never spoke.

He was always in the other room with the lights off. You could just see him the doorway.

That's another reason why it was sketchy, Like he never introduced himself to me. He never spoke a word to me. Justin said the whole time, I could just ignore him, don't talk to him. I just thought it was the weirdest thing.

As the visit continues, their concerns for Jessica begin to fester.

We were most scared for her.

It's like, she's stuck here with these crazy people.

I just don't understand. I don't understand how she's at that house.

Kin's growing impression of Justin kept signaling to him that something was just off about this whole thing.

He tried to sell me a gun.

He showed me a bunch of pictures on his phone and he was like, I can get you one of these. You just send me three thousand dollars cash and I'll get you one. He's trying to make money. I don't even know if he had as real guns or if he's just showing people pictures on his phone trying to make a quick dollar.

I don't know.

They'd say that he used to be in the Marines whenever he was showing me guns. That's where I thought he had guns from, was being in the military. And I didn't ask to see them because I didn't.

Care about him.

He offered to buy me a gun or sell me a gun, and I was like, I'm good, and he just had a lot of sketchy games.

Pushing past the awkward hit chat and gun pedaling, the two couples tried to make the most out of the visit and do what they do cam, but that turned out to be kind of a bust too.

We planned to do a cam show did like a big bathtub is kind of like a hot tub. It was a work thing and it just wasn't good going well. Jessica, she seemed uncomfortable. It just wasn't working, and we just kind of hung.

Out and talked some more until nighttime came.

But as night fell, things took a turn.

Justin he pulls out Mas and they both start smoking it and they try to get us to smoke it, and we're like, no, we don't want to smoke it. So we're just kind of awkward. We're not very comfortable with the situation.

They had a.

Little container I've never seen math before. I don't know the quantity of what it was. They had this little contact lens and it was full of it.

It just kind of gets kind of weird. We don't want to like say that we want to leave.

We were too nice, so we just kind of stuck around while they did math. They were okay at first, I mean they were like the same. They were just a little up, you know, their nerves and everything, and they were just up and like full of energy.

And in no time at all, the shit hits the fan.

They just start out of nowhere.

They like start yelling at each other, and I don't know what it has to do with because they were whispering and stuff before.

They start really yelling at each other.

And we thought that we could basically be a mediator but make the situation calm down a bit and like figure out what's going on and why they're so upset.

So we're like, hey, what's going on?

And I have to like really get in there and be like, okay, hey, how about we separate? And Jessica goes in our car and Justin stays in the room, and I start talking to Justin.

My wife goes and talks to Jessica.

And Justin is all over the place, like half the time, I can't even understand what he's saying, but he's calling her all kinds of names, and he's saying that he's going to do stuff to her, and I'm like, what the fuck is going on here? He was calling her a bitch and a whore and stuff like that, and he was gonna beat her and just you know, really violent stuff.

He was out of his mind at that moment.

He was mad because Jessica said that she wanted to have sex with me, and I was like, okay, that makes sense why you're mad.

Then I go to the car and I'm like, okay, so what's going on?

And Jessica just seems scared, you know, she just seems like she's scared. She doesn't want to talk to him, she doesn't want to see him. She's sitting in the car crying, just saying that she's just scared, and we felt bad for her.

At that point. We go back inside. I tell Justin.

I'm like, okay, Jessica's gonna come back in here, but you have to stop yelling and you have to stop being so violent.

And he was like okay, right.

Whenever Jessica watched the door, he starts screaming and yelling again, and We're like, what the heck. This is exactly the opposite of what you said you were gonna do.

So things weren't working out.

I tried one last time to tell him that he needs to calm down, and he freaked out on me. He said, if you don't shut the fuck up, then I'm gonna splatter your head against the wall. He threatened to bash my head into the wall. And at that moment, I was genuinely scared. He was a way bigger guy

But before they left, the couple tried to help a hysterical, inconsolable Jessica.

Jessica, she follows us to the door and she was like crying, she was sobbing. She was like, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. And then we were like, okay, listen, Jessica, we're going to a hotel.

If you want to come with us, you can't just hop in the car with us, and she was like I can't, I can't, I can't go, and we were like, listen, you need to come in the car with us.

And we're going to go to a hotel for a couple of days.

It's not a big deal. You just need to get away from her. And she didn't listen. She was scared that he was going to do something more. I'm sure in that little sliver of time that we spent with them, we saw how violent he could.

Get and we figured that it wasn't going to end well.

Just because of that experience, it was just the weirdest weekend we've ever had.

After we left and went back.

Home, they called us like a week later, and it was really just them apologizing and saying sorry, like over and over again, and we basically just let them know that we don't want to speak to them ever again.

We told them to stop calling us, and I think that was the most blunt we ever were with them.

It was easier not having to be face to face with them, just to be able to tell them over the phone.

But they listened. They didn't call us ever again.

This all happened just a few months before Jessica vanished. The unsettling experience has stuck with Kin and Barbie. They've thought about it ever since they left That day. But when they caught wind that Jessica was found dead, that's when they really started having thoughts.

We think that Jessica had a good heart, and we think she was a good person and she was a pleasure to be around.

Justin, on the other hand, was not well.

I think what happened was Jessica might have came to her senses and was like, Okay, I got to get away from this guy.

No matter the theories about what happened to Jessica, the fact remained she was gone. What was left were her remains, which had been released to Justin as her next of kin, though he hadn't claimed them. Instead, he took to the Internet to try and raise money for a funeral, one that Jessica's family had already offered to take care of.

He was sitting there selling her image. And then we tried to get all that stuff shut down, and the cop said that they would look into it, but they never did. They never did anything. It was us that got that all shut down, and there must have been like seven or eight porn sites. I ended up getting on Twitter in January and I put my story out there about Jessica, and I had at least thirty in box messages saying to me, what do you mean she died in August. He's been telling us in November, like

The camming community was incensed, and they rallied, finding ways to shut down as many of his online accounts as possible, which seemed to stop him in his tracks. And while Jessica sat alone inside the coroner's office, unclaimed, her family couldn't get the one thing they wanted the most, Jessica. To make matters worse, they were also lacking answers about

It's considered unclass Fried, so an on class Fried that leaves us in limbo because we're not allowed to make any more regard in a case because we don't have a determinate cause of dead, So no one here would be like trying to go out and find more information to fill in holes in what happened because it's the forensic stakes.

Undetermined is a production of Resonate Recordings and Tenderfoot TV in conjunction with Caden's Thirteen, Written and hosted by me Jessica Nolan and produced by Dennis Cooper and Todd Mcomas, with additional production by Whitney Bozart. Executive producers are Dennis Cooper, Mark Minnery, Jacob Bozart, Donald Albright, and Payne Lindsay. Our senior producer is John Street. Editing, mixing, mastering and sound design by Caleb Melcher, Dayton Cole and Pat Kicklider of