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Well, hello and welcome to another episode of Undercooled. Today, we're here with Professor Willie Rockward from Morgan State University. I've known Willie for many, many years when I started to go down to Morehouse College to recruit students from my research experience for undergraduates program in France, the optics in the city of late. And I got to sit in and watch Willie teach physics to his students at an HBCU. And it was amazing.
I've since maintained a relationship with Willie for many years, and we've even had a student from Morgan State who went to our program last summer. But I've really seen what he's done to the National Society of Black Physicists, how he helped revive the whole organization that was in pretty severe financial shape. And now they're in pretty amazing financial shape and probably partially because of Willie and his vision. And when he talks, it's great.
So Willie, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background? How did you get into physics? How did you start teaching and what are you doing now? Wow, wow, well, Steve, thank you first and foremost for inviting me to participate in this podcast. And this is share, share in my pathway and things I do. Yes, we did meet a while back. And I think you have very fruitful engagement. Well, a little bit about me.
I'm a Louisiana boy born in the bayous of Louisiana, South Louisiana below New Orleans. Believe me, there's a city below New Orleans. But then also did my undergrad and all that stuff. Well, how I got into physics was very strange. Okay, I got into physics through football. I was a football player, high school football star running back, receiver, kickoff return, punt return, all that kind of stuff. And but my real, so my passion really was football at the time.
But I wanted to play for Grambling, a very famous coach, Eddie Robinson, at Grambling State University in Louisiana. That's in the northern part of Louisiana. And I just, anyway, I tried on and made the team. All they offered me was a physics scholarship. But I tried on and made the football team. And I made it and played for Coach Rob for about maybe two, three weeks in practice. Cuz the linebacker hit me so hard, I was like, okay, yeah, I can't keep doing this.
[LAUGH] But nevertheless, and since then, I've been in the physics hot and heavy. But anyway, we were at Morehouse. I was a professor at Morehouse about six years ago, about 20 years. And now I'm at Morgan State, chair of the Department of Physics here, and we're having a great time. So that's a quick, very snippet of me. But I'm engaged in all levels of mentorship with students. My expertise is in the area of optics and lasers.
Did the research more in diffractive optics, lithography, nano lithography, things of that nature. And been doing a little bit recent research in some metamaterials and things like that, so. Fantastic. So one of the things that I think our materials community would love to hear from you is what do we need to know at our primarily white institutions about African American students? And we get students from Africa, and they're different than students from America.
And so I know that you've primarily focused on African Americans. So what do we need to know about African American students? Because where I wanna go with this is I wanna learn how we can do the best possible job to support them, make sure they feel like they belong. And make sure that we meet them wherever they are and bring them forward so they're successful. So what should we need to know about African American students? Okay, that's a good question, that's a solid question.
I mean, in a sense to me, it's both. Yes, you need to know about African American students and some distinguishing factors, okay? And history makes a big, history lays out a lot too of your culture and your situation and your perspective, all right? And what African Americans do, you gotta understand they all don't come with a standard background, right? They don't come all prepared for physics or material science. They come as raw material, okay?
Meaning like, okay, in the raw, but if you're able to process this some and deal with this some, you'll be able to refine it and get it to where it needs to be in. And that means, okay, some have other issues, non-academic issues that affect their academics, okay? And then there's some come just solid, straightforward. But a good thing you need to know is that we are relational people, all right?
African Americans are relational mean like, I'm not gonna really get to know you or feel belong unless I feel you out for my good, for my improvement, my betterment. And that takes an opportunity to get to know you more than just in the classroom, okay? But I begin to know you from the classroom, your classroom dynamics, from your classroom perspectives, from your classroom assignments, from how you would engage with me as I'm watching you engage with other students too, okay?
Are you just being, are you giving me a special kind of way and giving other students another kind of way? No, no, if you're gonna, if all of us are your students, give us all the same way, okay? If you're gonna be hard on me, you'd be hard on everybody. You're gonna be, give this student some opportunities, give all your students opportunities. So just come with a consistent approach and a consistent year.
And that begins to open, allows me as an African American student to wanna open up and get to know you more as a professor and respect you in that regard. So, yes, it's not as difficult as it sounds. It really is being consistent and being genuine to all students, and especially African American students too. And that way we will see that we're part of your group of students, period. That's great. And so you've been at Morehouse and now you're at Morgan State.
And you've been dealing with students who come from, like you said, a very wide range of backgrounds. Some of these backgrounds are really backgrounds that are pretty tough. Students who come from very underprivileged economically and also dangerous childhoods with... So how do you help the students who come from the worst backgrounds? How do you, do you engage the other students to help you? From what I saw, the whole ethos of the institution is all around helping others.
I'll never forget the first NSBE meeting I went to at AUC. There's a woman from Spelman who is the president. The room was packed and they started by saying, "Well, we're gonna start this by standing up and reciting our mission." And I'm like thinking, "Oh my God, that's ridiculous. Who cares about mission statements?" And then I heard it and I was so moved.
It was almost religious because their mission statement was all about reaching down and helping their brothers and sisters have the opportunities that they've been blessed to have themselves. It's like, that was powerful. Now this doesn't happen. I mean, it might happen at NSBE meetings here, but it's not part of our ethos the way it is at an HBCU.
So maybe at an HBCU, how you leverage that to help the students with the most disadvantaged backgrounds, the students who are further behind in your physics class. Well, you hit some of the good points in bringing them along. Part of it is to bring someone along, they need to belong, to bring them along, right? And to do so, you gotta see what areas that they would fit in. What areas they seem to have some connection to.
And so one of the things I always do to help my students with different backgrounds, the worst ones and even some with the better ones, you can say, I always pull them into my office and have a one-on-one. A one-on-one and I listen to them carefully. I ask my basic question, what's your passion? Where do you see yourself? You 18, 19, maybe 20, add 10 years to yourself and what do you see yourself doing? So I try to drive home, find out what their passion is.
And then I say, okay, well then once they start talking and some of them may say, I don't know. I say, okay, but what do you like? Okay, so I keep the question around them, okay? And as they engage with me, I listen intently and I make mental notes, mental notes, what is unique with them. And so therefore, as I'm going into the classroom, I try to make sure I'm pointing certain opportunities and certain, even some certain material that may overlap their background.
So I don't necessarily call them out on the spot, but I give them opportunity to respond to me. So when we are talking one-on-one in my office, I also share with them some of my personal challenges. I have to keep reminding them, like, look, you're seeing me at a refined state. I wasn't always this way. We go through a growth patterns and all of us, I say, everyone, the professors, all of us have had our challenging point too.
I say, but every last one of us also has someone who was like a champion for us, someone who helped us along and they didn't have, they didn't have, it was, they didn't have nothing behind it. You know, they didn't have any hidden agendas or anything. They wanted to help you, they wanted to help me and help us become the best people we can become. Okay. And I say, and that's the same thing I'm trying to do for you. I want to give you my support.
I say, but I'm also, I'm also expecting you to put forth your best effort. I'm expecting you to let me know when you need some help or you, you feel like you can't quite make it or you just don't know, or you just want to sit down and just want to chat. Okay. So I make sure that they're engaged and they don't see me as this. I'm the one, you know, some savior to solve all their problems, but I also help them to see that, hey, I am a resource for you to be here, to help you out.
And you got to take advantage of it, you know, as best as we can. And so when they start feeling that after a couple of meetings, they begin to start really, I mean, I saw some, I saw seeing them really, really grow. That's awesome. And when I saw you teach in the classroom, you were tough on those students, really tough. And it was uniform, all of them. But when I walked out and talked to the students, they all loved you and they loved you because you love them.
And so I walked, what I got from that is you had this pedagogy of tough love. And I just think that was amazing. And I wish I could do what you did. And so any advice for how to be tough on your students and still make sure that they love you, that you love them. How do you communicate that you love them, even though you're being tough on them? Oh, I don't know my secret sauce yet on that one, but I give you some tough love. Well, to me, it's like, you know, I try to make sure they know.
Okay, this one thing I always tell them too, is I tell them I have a motto. I say my motto from all of my classes is hard, but fair. I say hard, but fair. And I say really, I'm not really that fair. And they were like, what you mean? I said, well, you really want me to be fair to you because if I be fair, fair, that means I only give you what you made or what it is or what the facts say. I say, but I also look at, you know, I weigh in you as a person. Okay. I weigh in your effort.
I weigh in all those things, those factors that, you know, I say, and to be honest with you, a lot of professors do that. We look at our students, you know, from where you've come, we look at your trend and how you've grown in this class. So I say, but I say, but what I will do for one of you, I will do for every last one of you all. But that also means I will not do for one of you. I won't do for nobody. Okay. I say, so you can count on me being that.
Okay. And I say, and then I try to help them also grow out of their, out of their, the me, the me myself and I mindset. But I say, I said, okay. I say, you got to remember this. I say, you got, you got to learn to follow the lead of your professor or the lead of whoever's in charge or responsible for this class or whatever it may be. It may be on your job. Okay. I say, you got to understand, especially in the class, that we as professors, first of all, this is not our first rodeo.
This is not our first time teaching this class in most cases. I said, but the bottom line, even if it is our first time teaching the class, we know what we're going to put on the exam. We know what we know what the class is going to look like from the, for the whole length of the, of the, of the semester. I say, you don't. I say, so what you gotta do, you got to lean on mine. Okay. You on that. Okay. So you got to get in my mindset as a professor.
I say, so when you start thinking about it from that perspective, you will be able to start listening to me and picking up on me and picking up on stuff that I'm really emphasizing and things like that. And some stuff that I'm telling you, Hey, go and finish that. You know, that's, that's like a hint saying you're going to see that again. And so, so, um, so I kind of coached them along the way. And when, when we outside of the classroom, they see the same guy.
They don't see somebody who I, I look down on them, um, or anything like that. You know, I, I mean, I keep them in the proper perspective. They do address me by my title, doc, you know, you know, Dr. Rockward. Well, most of them can't call me by my last name. You know, so they just call me Dr. Rock. Okay. And I told them that's fine. That's fine like that. But, you know, and we, we have a mutual respect, a professional mutual respect, both in the classroom and outside the classroom.
Now, yes, in the classroom, I got some rules and regulations and like one of my rules, especially at Morehouse and even brought up here at Morgan in our physical class, you can't write in a pencil. They know if I see a pencil hanging out your book bag, I'm going to kick you out my class. And they're like, what? I say, yes. I said, because in the physics arena, we, we've learned to write things down. So we, we learn to be intentional in our thoughts and we try to be careful.
And then so we, so when we write in pen, if we make a mistake, we just draw a line through it and it's all right to the left or to the right, because sometimes we think we were right. We were doing something wrong, but we actually was doing it right. But if you scratch it out and you use a pencil, you're going to erase and you won't have nothing to compare it to. I said, so in physics, we're not afraid to make mistakes. We learn from our mistakes.
I said, and that's what we want to keep driving home, driving with you. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. Now some mistakes you shouldn't be making because you saw them. Other people make those mistakes. Right. I say, so some stuff you should not be doing, but there's some, there's some new mistakes to be made because there's some new problems to be solved.
And so, and so when they start seeing that perspective and I even share with them some of the mistakes that I've even made in my personal life. Okay. Along the way where I'm at now and they're like, wow, Dr. Rock, right? I said, no, I'm not perfect. I'm human like you. I still make mistakes. And I said, but I said, that's just some stuff I've grown past.
And, and so they, they, they opens them up and they get the chance to see me as a human, a human as I've grown and matured on my pathway and that they're more, they're more susceptible and willing to jump on their pathway, which may not be a common one. So I try to, so I'm trying to motivate them as I also, you know, push them. And I think that, I think that's that mixture of tough love.
So they, they, they're willing to, they're willing to receive the correction and the toughness of behind me because they know I love them. Right. You know what I'm saying? They not care about them. So, and you reveal your human side and you don't do that unless you really love somebody. Yes. Yes. So that's, that's really awesome. So, at our institution, you know, we're involved in a new DEI effort. I actually was on a listening panel talking about their new DEI 2.0.
And I got a little upset at people because it's written like "administratium." It's like, here's what we're going to do for recruiting. Here's what we're going to do for retention. And I'm like, wait a minute, hold on. You know, first of all, and then the pathway for each of these things was talks and training. And I'm like, why is the knee jerk reaction for academia to solve every problem with a lecture? It's like, why are you even doing that?
Why don't you focus on what is the problem and how are we going to solve it? I said, how can you talk about recruiting when we have a large number of African-American students who have told us that they don't feel like they belong? Don't we have to work on that first? Because who's the best people to recruit? It's students. Yes, that's true. Right now, we've been told that sometimes some students will go to NSBE, and NSBE students will say, "Oh, don't come here. This is not a good environment."
It used to be better. It used to be really good. And we're struggling. And so I stood up and said, you need to solve this problem first. You need to understand why they don't feel like they belong, and we need to correct that. And you shouldn't give faculty credit for going to DEI talks. You should give faculty credit for doing direct action things. How many underrepresented minorities are they including in their research lab? How many recruiting trips are they going on?
How many students are they mentoring who are underrepresented? This is true for all... It's not just African-Americans. It's all of our underrepresented minorities. It's also our transfer students. They're really at risk. They come in and they don't know anybody. And so I've been trying to focus them on doing things that I think are important, which is, what can we do to make our students feel more welcome?
And this is kind of a problem for us that you don't really have, I don't think, at an HBCU, because the whole institution is focused on making everybody feel welcome. But then they come here and we blow it. So what advice do you have for us so we don't blow it? How can we make our students feel welcome across the whole institution? Wow. Wow. That's... Okay. That's gonna take up the rest of this podcast. But I can give you a couple of nuggets.
And you kind of hit one major nugget is that it has to be intuitionized. The institution has to see that all of its students... Okay. Yes, yes, underrepresented minorities, but everybody is important. All of my students are important and my faculty is important and my staff is important, right? Because if we don't have the infrastructure and support structure, we can't get our students through. So all of us are important. All right.
And so one of the biggest things I've always tried my best to do and I share with them is okay. To really help a student feel belong, it's gonna take extra time. It's gonna take extra exposure. It's gonna take you... You know, they're gonna take a whole village to kind of do... You can't... No one person can do it all, but as a village, a collective, we can get it done, right? Because there's some areas like say you, Steve, you're very good.
You're very encouraging. You're very motivational in the sense you... and not helping me to understand anything. So you're also making ways and resources for me to help. So providing resources, provide insight. And like you say, sometimes structuring opportunities for them to get into study groups. Because if you come as a transfer student, or you come in as a dual degree engineering student who spent two or three years at another institution, now you come into this major institution.
Or even as an undergrad going to graduate school at your institution in Michigan. I'm going to a whole new culture. I'm going to a whole new environment. And it's good to have somebody there who I can relate to and connect to. And it always has to look like me. But it'd be good to have something that does look like me, but also to know that everyone don't have to look like you to want you to be a part of the community. Yeah, we're just starting some programs.
So in our literature sciences and arts college, they have some very good study group systems where people can sign up for a time. And once you have 15 people, that one's closed. Then they pay a student who did well in the course, who's now an upperclassman, they pay that student to mentor that study group. And they do it on Zoom. So you have no idea who's in the study group until you first meet.
But the benefit is you actually get a student, someone your age, who knows the material, who can help drive the conversation. And I think this is great. So I've asked if we can do that in engineering. And I've actually gotten a lot of support. I think the dean's like this idea. It's not that expensive. And I actually found out that some of the other departments are already doing things like this. And we're going to do it. We're just going to use-- what's that tool called?
My wife did it for when my kids were in high school. Signup Genius. With a free Signup Genius account, you can have students sign up for different times. And it doesn't cost anything. We just pay the student. And I love paying undergrads $18 an hour to teach other students. Because it's like the first time in their life they ever got paid for what they just paid all that money for. And they're actually using what they just learned and making money. I think that's a wonderful thing.
And so I do that in my class. And I'm not going to convince the other faculty to do what I do. But I use team-based teaching. In all of my classes. And so I make the teams. And I make the teams based on the diversity in the classroom. Making sure I don't strand a URM. Make sure there's at least two or two women. But we have so much diversity in our classes. I teach a class where I have first year through fourth year. I teach a class where I have all these different departments.
This term I'm teaching an archaeology class with an archaeology professor. And so we have people who are sociology majors, who are business majors. Last year I even had one of the hockey team players who left in the middle of the term. Because he got drafted by the New Jersey Devils. But when you have all those different voices, not only will people start to understand and value diversity for what it can bring to the success of a team, it also creates built-in study groups.
Because the team has to stick together. And I teach them. And then I hire instructional aides, which are undergrads, to help mentor these teams. And I quickly realized they should rename it. IA shouldn't mean instructional aid. It should be inclusion ambassador. And what they do is they watch these teams. And they're their age. And I tell everyone they're going to do this. If you're an introvert and you just sit there and don't say anything, you're not helping yourself.
No one's going to know that you have something of value to give to the rest of the team. And it goes right back to your football roots. We had our coach, Beau Schembechler, who painted famously on the tunnel, the team, the team, the team. Nothing matters except the success of the team. And guess what? That's where all of our students end up in industry. It's all about the team. And so you have to help the other members of your team be the best they can so the team can be the best they can.
And so they pull the introverts aside and say, hey, I know this is tough. But later on, I'm going to be calling on you. And it's not because I'm trying to be mean. I just need you to let others know. You have something valuable to say. And we do the same with the extroverts. We tell them, you have to learn how to listen. You can't-- I had a student once. He got marked down on a project because all of his teammates hated him. And he came up to me. He goes, I did everything for that team.
It was my idea. I did all the research. I built the project. I was the one who did everything. And I said, I hear you. I hear you. And you didn't let anyone else do anything. And they were pretty upset about that. And so that's why you got marked down because you didn't let others have a chance. And so I'm sorry. That's a tough lesson to learn this way. But that's how we do it. So anyway, there's lots of techniques. And I wish more faculty were open to-- I mean, it comes down to what you said.
The institution has to change. Yes. How do I convince my colleagues to do this? So we get accredited by a group called ABET for engineering. And I have a good friend who's way up high in ABET. And they're now going through diversity DEI criteria for ABET. It's very difficult. So they haven't quite done it. But what he told me was really valuable. He says, listen, it's not about so much giving people an unfair advantage or any of that.
It's about the fact that our students are going to get an industry. And they're going to work with diverse teams. They have to learn in school how to work with a diverse team so they hit the ground running when they go to industry. I just thought that was an interesting perspective. Yeah. That's a full perspective. You actually look at it. And diversity of the team is becoming more than just national now. It's global. Oh, yeah.
You know, the most successful teams are being very effective not just in their regional or national area. They're being effective globally in a variety of countries and things like that. So you're right. He has something. We got it. We have to train ourselves, which means we have to retrain ourselves sometimes. That's right. But you just look at football again. Why did we win the national championship this year? We won because we had an amazing defense and we had an amazing offense.
And we had all these different players that had all these different strengths, who's incredibly-- you win football games by having tremendous diversity where you need it. And then you make sure you play as a team. That's true. That's true. And you just got to continue to stay at it and look at the variety that everyone brings to the table. I just believe the institution is going to make a big-- it has to come from the top. I think there's going to be a grassroots movement, too.
But they have to be able to see that, OK, our-- at the top, they're just in support of it, as well as we're going through grassroots. They're making it institutionalized. And I hope that's happening in Michigan. I think our new president is very focused on this. He's an Asian-American. And when he was living and when he was growing up, he felt lots of racism. And it hurt him personally. And he talks about it. And so I know he's really committed. But it's really hard to change an institution.
It's still really hard. And I wonder, maybe by being more engaged with faculty at HBCUs would help teach our faculty. I know I learned so much by going and visiting him and the other faculty who are down there. It was really important for my growth as a human being to see how powerful that kind of an institution can be. And that's one reason I asked you to be on this podcast, because hopefully we can give that to others.
But how can more faculty from primarily white universities get involved with faculty there? And I know there's been a lot of abuse of white-- primarily white institutions trying to get money by at the last minute partnering on a research grant and all of that. And that's not helpful to anybody. And hopefully our funding institutions will figure that out. But how can faculty and especially materials programs-- because guess what kind of graduate students we love the most?
We love physics graduate students or physics undergrads who can come in because all the concepts in material science are either physics or chemistry concepts. So most of us come from different fields. I was a math major. I was not a material science undergraduate. And most of our faculty were not material science majors. We were all chemistry or physics. And so I think we need really good students. How can they get engaged with, say, Morgan State?
I would say that's something Morgan State is doing. We made it recently. Well, the past couple of years, our president, actually is into institutional partnerships, where we're partnering with Purdue University across institutions.
Not just, say, in our physics departments or in our engineering departments, but literally across the institutions where they're doing a lot of dual degree programs, two-way exchanges, because many of the students at a predominantly white institution would love to spend a semester or two or even do a degree program at an HBCU. And so things of that nature is making it much more real and engaging for the faculty, because the faculty at both institutions need to be in partnership.
We are the infrastructure for our students that comes in. The new student comes into the institution. They're going to meet pretty much the same faculty within good reason. And so the faculty need to be connected to HBCUs and likewise to PWIs so that we can form a good-- I call it a good pipe, a good pipe for a very robust pipeline. You want a pipeline of students. That means in order to get the students flowing, you need to have a pipe. And the pipe is the faculty.
And so we can continue to work together like that. We'll be able to give our students a lot more opportunities. And they'll get a sense of belonging. Say, like I said, underrepresented minority coming from HBCU, we get a greater sense of belonging by already being connected to the PWI before they even get there. OK. And that's how their productivity level really goes off the roof. I mean, you just see them really, really blossom.
Now, NSF has some very interesting programs to help facilitate some of this with our PREM program. Yes. How does a PWI get involved with a minority serving institution to start a PREM? I presume it's first you need good relationships with the faculty. Yes. Yes, that's true. I mean, that's what's going on with us in Morgan right now. We have a PREM grant in materials. And so we actually connect with PWIs, John Hopkins, Penn State, things like that in different areas.
and go out and win a lot more grants. - That's great. Well, we actually-- - And they actually gained their students a lot too. - That's right. So we just got a MRSEC that just started at three weeks ago. - Wow. - And it's run by Rachel Goldman. And one of Rachel's students is Jared Mitchell. Remember Jared? - Jared Mitchell, yeah. - Yeah. - He was one of your students. - Yes, yes. - Who went to the optics in the city of L.A.T. and he's about to graduate. What an amazing student.
And so I will be calling you in a very short time to ask about how we might write a prem together. - Okay, okay. I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to it. - But I think, you know, that's a good, important message to other materials programs of how they can start to develop a relationship with an HBCU. But I think it has to be predicated on mutual respect.
You know, we can't just write it and say, "Hey, will you put your name on this?" You know, we have to sit down and do it collaboratively to say, "What can we do that'll be really unique for both of our institutions? And what's gonna match with the passions of the people who are actually involved?" - Yeah, that is so true. And also, it'd be a two-way street. As you bring proposals to me, I bring proposals to you and say, "Hey, can you help me, you know, strengthen this proposal?
Can we work together with this and see how we can put together a strong proposal?" That we may win too, so it's a two-way street, yeah. - So I had one last question, but I think you kind of answered it. So I was gonna ask, you know, how should materials programs make sure we're supporting African-American students in guaranteeing their success? And what does success look like? I think you answered that. Success is what the student wants success to be.
And we need to ask the student, what do you view as success? - Now, but you gotta also keep in mind that sometimes they don't know. - Yeah, of course. - So, but it's also good when, you know, but allowing them to first engage, you know, and come to the realization that they don't quite know yet, then you can start feeding them some ideas. Say, "Hey, have you tried this?
Have you considered this?" You know, for this student, it looked like this, you know, and then, you know, sometimes, you know, you ask yourself, "Well, where do I really wanna be?" Okay, and you let them know that you don't have to know right now. - Okay. - Not always. That's fine. - Okay. - Many of us, I mean, I didn't know I wanted to be a physicist until after, really until after my junior senior year. Okay, junior senior year undergraduate.
I know I wasn't gonna be a football player by my freshman year, but I didn't really get the physicist part until I was about, you know, in my fourth year as a senior. I spent five years in my undergrad, which I tell students, you know, it's all right, okay? It's all right. It's good to have another year if you can as an undergrad because it helps strengthen, you know, broaden your knowledge base, so, yeah.
I was gonna be a dentist because my dad was a dentist and I would just take over his practice. - Wow. - But then I went to the exam, the pre-dental exam, and I saw these people throwing airplanes at each other, little paper hair, and it was just so lame. I just, I'm like, "Wait a minute. I can't go to school with these people." I got up, walked out, and started looking at engineering programs. - Wow, okay, okay. - So you're right. You never know.
And it's important to make sure people keep options open and explore and get experience. So I'm our undergraduate advisor. You know, I tell all the students, you know, your summers are, you should be getting internships. You're gonna make a lot of money, but more importantly, you're gonna learn what it's like in industry. And you should try some big industries and some small industries. And even if you go for a PhD, where do you think you're gonna work when you finish your PhD?
You're gonna probably work in an industry. And so, you know, we have all sorts of career fairs and we have a weekly lunch where we bring people in from industry and graduate schools. And I tell them, "You gotta go to these. These are really important to go to because this is giving you information so when you graduate, and you don't have to decide till the very last minute, but you might apply to companies to go to. You might apply to PhD programs.
You might do what you need to get a one year master's. And you don't have to decide which of those you're gonna do until one month before you graduate. So keep your options open. And then won't it be wonderful if you have to make a hard decision?" (laughing) - Which echoes, which to me, I always echo to them, there are some problems you like to have. - That's right. Yeah, because it's a tough problem to choose what your path is gonna be, but that's why I think every student needs to do research.
They might hate it. They might think it's terrible and that's okay. They learned, you know? But it might also completely change their lives. It changed mine when I got to do research. I think you told me a great story when you went to Bell Labs to do research. - Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. I mean, that's how you open up my eyes quite a bit.
And I always tell my students who, plus doing research, especially during the summer, you get to see all the stuff that you've learned in the class, in class, how it really applies. I mean, this stuff that we're teaching you all, it really has some true, strong, practical applications. Okay? - Oh yeah. - And sometimes they don't get a chance to really see that. - Right. We're not just applying gratuitous violence to our students. It's actually useful.
- Well, also, I've been told by some people in our physics department that our application is progressing to host National Society of Black Physicists in 2026. Hoping that comes through, because it'll be fantastic to see you come up here to Michigan and have that whole group. Because what a great group that is. I've really enjoyed going to those meetings and it's great. - Well, I'd like to tell you, man, that has been confirmed now. We will be helping the University of Michigan in 2026.
- Oh, it has. - That's awesome. So I hope everybody who's listening to this comes to that meeting. Because even if you think you're doing material science, this is where you're gonna find amazing physics undergrads. They have money to bring, how many undergrads do you typically have? - Around 350 to 400. - Yeah, 350 to 400 students, undergraduate physics students come to this meeting and you can buy a booth and advertise your program. And it's really, really rewarding.
So I hope, I mean, you don't have to wait till we have it at Michigan. You can do it. Where's it gonna be next year? - I would encourage you to come this year. Well, the next two, three years, we're gonna have to do it next year. Well, the next two, three years, we're gonna be doing it. A special one, 2024, 25 and 26, we'll be doing it in conjunction with the National Society of Hispanic Physics too.
So both organizations, we decided to come together, work, collaborate on a conference for three years, three consecutive years. And we're looking forward to it. We're gonna be in Houston in 2024. It looks like we're gonna be in San Jose in 2025. And we are definitely locked in for the University of Michigan in 2026. - Fantastic. Anything else you'd like to mention that you think is important for our materials programs to hear before we close out? - I think we covered the gamut.
There's one thing I did wanna mention. You and I had a chance to talk, I think the pre-talk about some sensitivity training. To me, that would be a great thing for, yes, for say majority faculty to get an understanding of underrepresented minorities and things like that. But I believe really it's good for everyone. Because what I've been trying to expose my students to is that, hey, you gotta understand the environment you're going into, right? It's a combination.
Everybody won't be able to adjust the whole world to you. So that's it. You gotta also learn the culture of a predominantly white institution. They focus a lot more on research and learning new things. And sometimes we take out the relational side of things, but we realize that we have to pull it in within good reason. So I do think it's great to have that sensitivity training for both.
But primarily, if I'm at a predominantly white institution, I do need to have some sensitive training about HBCU or about African-Americans. So I can at least be equipped to be, I would say on the positive side of things instead of the negative side. - Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. And so thank all of you who tuned in and are listening or watching on YouTube. I understand that transcripts are coming to podcasts now.
Apple has announced that we can put transcripts in so people can read this, they can listen to it. And I think it's great. So thank you so much, Willie, and thank all of you for listening and we'll see you next time. - Thank you, Steve. (upbeat music)