The Church needs to Rethink Discipleship

The reason I was hesitant to say this is because I know that there are churches that literally have that language on their website. I'm not picking on you specifically, but if you pull up, you'll find some version. The words might change, but essentially what they're saying is, like, show up Sunday, join a small group, midweek thing, and then somehow serve either the church or the community. And if you do those three things, that's what it means to be a disciple.

And the thing about that is, is that you can max out that definition of discipleship inside of a week. Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. I'm Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have uncut, honest conversations about faith, life, and ministry. So, Cameron, we're sitting down on a gloomy Thursday afternoon, because we live in western New York. We did see a strange yellow orb in the sky yesterday for a couple hours. It made me so happy. It really made me happy, too.

It really did. I went out to feed our animals in our barn early in the morning. The sun was coming up, and I just kind of stood in the field next to my barn and just looked at the sun and let the warmth and the light, just the sunlight, hit my face. And it was like, oh, my gosh. Yeah. This is what I need. Actually, I'm sure somebody out there who knows weather and understands the science of it, but I was thinking about it the other day. I was like, why is it just that?

I mean, it's fine that it's cold, but why does the sun actually have to disappear? Why is it cloudier in these winter months than it is in the warmer months? I'm sure it's got something to do with air pressure and humidity and all that jazz. But I don't know. I just, I find it so abysmal that it's just one giant gray.

Slab outside yeah so i have never been the type of person that has recognized that, that you know had been like oh we haven't seen the sun in x amount of days yeah to me it's just like always been.

Like well this is just kind of because you you've lived here your whole life my whole life yeah this is how it is you know but for whatever reason this year i'm feeling like oh wow a little bit of sunshine would be like game changing today yeah well i would i this is totally not what we had planned to talk about but i watched this like you know video online because i spent too much time online and there was this guy with this like light meter and he was measuring just a different like amount of

light exposure and type of light exposure you get when you're inside versus being outside and he's like yeah like on a sunny day obviously you're going to get more sun exposure it's going to do better things for your circadian rhythm and stuff like that but even the amount of light that we're getting on a day like today where we cannot see the sun it's overcast it's gray out there it is still so much more light than what you get inside i can't

remember because i don't i don't remember if he was measuring lumens or what he was was measuring on that little thing but it was like you know like maybe you're like a hundred inside and like on a cloudy day it was like a couple hundred it was like 500 600 you know on a bright day it's a ton yeah but he was just like but like the magnitude of sun exposure you get outside even on a cloudy day so much better than even sitting next to a window inside right right It's like, oh.

It just sucks that it's also cold outside. It's the other deterrent that keeps us from going outside.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, kind of hold on, wait for spring. Yeah, which is like, you know, it is one of the beautiful things about like the church calendar and the way it's kind of structured is that it's, I was thinking about this last night, that, you know, Advent is kind of this move towards hope. Even as the days get shorter and it gets darker and darker. And then Lent, which is fast approaching, you know, comes in early spring at the very, like, maybe late winter, early spring mark.

And it's this, it's kind of a, like, even though the days are getting longer, it's a more inward and more reflective and maybe a darker journey. Lent is, because you're reflecting on your sin and all of that. But it's leading up to this very hopeful, regenerative, new celebration with the coming of spring. So...

Just thinking about the way the seasons line up with the church calendar. Yes, I think redemption is woven into the created world. Yeah. For sure. It is. But anyways, we were thinking, before we turned on the microphones and everything, we were kind of talking about discipleship and maybe some ideas that we were having, having listened to a podcast that we both found and we really enjoyed and appreciated and listened to.

And we were kind of thinking about what that means for discipleship and kind of a corrective for it. So Cameron, do you want to kind of take us from there?

Yeah, so the podcast was Carrie Newhoff's podcast, podcast and we'll link it here in the uh in the notes yep um but carrie is uh was a pastor, a pretty large church um left pastoral ministry and started writing and doing leadership work and stuff like that he's got a pretty you know you got a story of burnout and a story of I wouldn't say disenchantment, but just like ministry was going a different way.

And he interviews John Mark Comer, who I guess surprisingly is kind of like the same story. Yeah. Leading a pretty big church, megachurch out in the Pacific Northwest. He had said something like 93 staff or something like that. Anyway, is a, what I would say is kind of like the modern day church guru on what we would call now discipleship. And, and the simplification of life and, you know, probably his most famous book is entitled The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry. Yep. Very good book.

And they were sitting down just to talk, I think, really kind of about the state of discipleship in the evangelical church today. Yeah. It was kind of a leap launching pad off of his most recent book, which I think I've mentioned on the podcast. I started listening to this last week, something like that. I'm listening to it on audiobook, which does count as reading, Cameron. It does not. But his new book, whether you listen or read to it, is Practicing the Way.

I bought the book, and I will read it like a grown adult. But anyway.

They have a lot of conversation about the state of discipleship in the church today.

And I think one of the main questions that they ask that they describe as being the shadow portion of the evangelical church today, day which is like you want to describe you're you're a little bit more in tune with the language of the shadow yeah do you want to describe kind of like what you felt like he he meant about that comment yeah so like so shadow like if you're if anyone who's listening is like really tuned in to, like psycho psychoanalytic or like psychology language and you

know it's kind of an old old it's not a new it's not part of like the new part of psychology this is kind of older stuff that i think is still very valuable but the idea of us having a shadow of everyone having a shadow i when i talk about it because i i bring this up in stuff when i talk about like addiction and stuff i've done with rooted of having a false self and a shadow and the false self is like um.

And maybe this isn't the right way to talk about it when we apply it to the conversation they're talking about but it's this idea of what we present to the world this false self and when we have a false self um that creates a shadow and and maybe we always will have a shadow like and the shadow is the parts of yourself that you um that you maybe don't want to accept.

They can be good things and bad things like um in in christian language we might talk of them as like the old self um the old adam right the body of sin that we're trying to put to death would be included in the shadow but i would say that there's also things that end up in the shadow that are maybe good things um or maybe gifts and things like that that we maybe just don't want to accept so like all that to say that like if you're dealing with here's a classic example,

if you see someone who is um you know someone who's like really kind of always making themselves the center of the stage what you like you would see them you're like oh well they're so confident they're so forward they're all of this chances are is that the more they kind of tend to put themselves out there, want the center of attention and all of that, the more likely, in just general human terms, that they have a shadow that includes significant insecurities and fear about rejection.

So all that to say that there is kind of this public representation, and then there's always a shadow to it. And they kind of bring that and talk about that into church world. Yeah. Right? Applying it not just to individuals, but applying it to organizations and stuff like that. Now, I think probably the false self part of it is maybe not as helpful. Another way we could talk about it is like...

Uh a lot of times like our gifts like the thing we're really good at you know um like someone who's maybe like uh an enneagram too who loves to help people loves to just always show up for people that's a gift but what's the shadow of that gift they have no boundaries you know they they um they'll make themselves physically mentally emotionally unhealthy yep in the The pursuit of being the person that shows up for the other one.

Right. Yeah. So a gift and a shadow. So maybe that's an even more simpler way to kind of talk about it than the way I was talking about it.

But so all that to say, they're just like, all right, the church has a shadow. Has a shadow. There's things that the church has that are gifts. Yep. Right? Which they don't talk too much about, but there are gifts to the way that our churches operate and things like that. But with those gifts, perhaps exist shadows. shadows, so. Yes. Yeah, that's essentially what they said is like, is the church aware of its shadows?

Generally, you have to be pretty self-aware to be aware of your shadow, whether you're a church or a person. But they talk about it specifically as it pertains to discipleship. So the.

The self right the church um does a lot of things to help people grow in their relationship with jesus right they offer communal worship services and small groups and sunday school classes and bible studies and opportunities to serve and to fellowship with one another and all of these things and and so they're offering they're doing all of these things with the the intention of we want you to become more and more like Jesus. Yep. And we want you to become closer to Jesus.

Great. Mm-hmm. That's what we want too.

But then the question that is asked, which kind of is like the shadow question is, how many of us are, how many churches or church leaders, pastors, whatever are actually willing to ask the question of whether or not the current methods are effective yeah are they working or effective to what limit right to what stage of discipleship to what stage of like yeah spiritual growth and they um they mentioned a few books the critical journey is one they talk quite a

bit about you and i have that book here i've never read it but i've picked it up so i've read it like twice i think now yeah um but they. You know john mark comer essentially is like i i am not sure that the church is honest enough enough with itself to deal with the shadow of our ineffectiveness at moving people through or bringing people, apprenticing people to Jesus. Yeah. And so...

Um what do you think about that i think he's right yeah i do i think he's right um.

And it it may be like it may be a little bit anecdotal but i feel like if i look across the span i would love to know okay jesus and when i get to heaven someday please tell me the amount amount of people please answer this question for me um i would love to know then the number of individual people that have been like have come through one of the three churches that i've served in my time in ministry who have considered me their pastor who have sat under my teaching

and leadership whatever the number of people first and then the second thing is um i would like to know the number of people that i would confidently say the systems structures the programs the churches that have led have provided them the best framework to move from the life of sin to the life of righteousness or the life of like, you know, knowing nothing about Jesus, not walking with Jesus, not living like Jesus, not in communion with the Spirit.

Not any any of those things to like fully thriving disciple. Apprentice, follower of Jesus. And if I'm honest with myself, I would have to say that that number is perilously low. Because I think in a lot of ways, there are, of course, people upon people upon people upon people upon people whose lives are changed. Yes, yes. I'm not saying that all of my ministry is bad. No, no. Or that the people that are in my church now at Conduit, that they're all untransformed. I'm not saying that at all.

Right. But what I'm saying is that I think that the proportion of people who enter into the discipleship ministries of just about any evangelical church now walk through the majority of their life relatively untransformed. And so it makes me question the method because I don't know. I can't really question anything else. I can't really question their, like, the individual person's, like, effort or, like, the authenticity of their conversion or anything like that.

All I can do is say, well, it doesn't feel like we're getting the results that we should get if we all agree that, oh, these are the things that build disciples. Small groups and teaching and fellowship. Well because like we we live in a like um program a little bit or like a programmatic world dramatic based ministry and so and like i've kind of said this um i know i've said this to you and i've probably said this on the podcast but like if our definition of discipleship is is, you know, like.

Yeah, I'll name it. So, like, churches have some version of, like, this as their discipleship plan. Gather, grow, and go. Gather on Sunday morning to worship the Lord, praise, and fellowship, and hear the teaching. We grow together in community. We get together midweek where we have a Bible study together, and we grow through reading the Word together and praying with one another. And then you've got to go by serving on Sunday morning. Or, at best, serving in some sort of outreach.

Reach maybe i'd say a lot of churches you know substitute going out into the world for coming and serving at sunday morning services um that's oh that's disgustingly true yeah like i and the thing is is the reason i was hesitant to say this is because i know that there are churches that literally have that language on their website gather grow and go i'm not picking on you we I'm not picking on you specifically. It just is really nice alliteration.

But if you pull up any church, not any church, but a lot of churches, you'll find some version. The words might change. But essentially what they're saying is show up Sunday, join a small group, midweek thing, and then somehow serve either the church or the community. And if you do those three things, that's what it means to be a disciple. And the thing about that is, is that you can max out that definition of discipleship inside of a week.

I can show up to a church if I don't just show up, and I kind of like shop around for a little bit, but if I show up, I fill out whatever stupid card that we have, and then turn it in, and then I do the thing, and I show up to the group, and I serve on a Sunday morning, I've reached the maximum definition of what practically it means to be a disciple. example. Does that make maturity? Right. And so, yeah, there, I said it. Yeah. Well, good. Good for you. You let your voice be known.

Yeah. So, I think that, you know, that's kind of the crux of what they talk about is, is this an effective method? Is it really doing what we want it to do? Or is it doing what Jesus wants it to do? Maybe that's a better question. And I don't, it does do stuff. Does? It does. And it, you know, I don't want to like completely undermine it because it does like going to Sunday service is important. We do think going to a small group is important. We do think serving is important.

Yep. And they do form us. Uh-huh. I think the problem twofold is that sometimes they lack some of the completeness. They like, particularly if they're not, depending on how they're done, too, like a different type of small group. There's different, you know, there's different types of small groups. Uh-huh. and there are some small groups that might be really helpful when you're really early in your faith.

But is that the same type of small group that's going to be helpful in five, ten years down the walk with the Lord? Do you need something different? And that's kind of where that question comes in is, does this kind of gather, grow, and go, this like three kind of little programmatic pieces, do those help make full disciples? I think they help make some kind of disciples and make you disciples to a degree. But then the question is, what's the shadow? What's the missing part of it?

And like you were saying, is it doing what Jesus wants it to do? Wants it to do. Yeah. One of the things that they talk about is the incompleteness of the word discipleship. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I'm not a Greek expert, so I don't really know, to be honest with you. I haven't done the work on it, but about how the word there, disciple, really is probably better translated as apprentice. Yeah.

I mean, I'll tease a little bit from the book, but essentially that word disciple is really tied to Jesus' role as a rabbi, as teacher.

And the culture around... Because rabbis would go and get disciples. So what Jesus did, what we see in the Gospels, where Jesus... Students. We get students. Get students, right? He goes and calls disciples. He goes and calls them, right? He calls them away from their nets to come and follow him. It's not a thing that nobody had ever done before. Jesus did it different than anybody else had done it before. But there were other rabbis, other than Jesus, that went around and taught.

Other rabbis who went and got students to follow follow them, and things like that. And so, it wasn't like, you know, the apostles, the disciples were like, what's he mean, come and follow him? They knew what he meant, come and be my student, come be with me, be like me, and do what I do, right? Which is, you know, the paradigm that's in Comer's book. And so, his argument is that, because disciple is kind of an antiquated word word for us. We don't use it anywhere.

But a word that maybe makes better sense, he argues, is apprentice.

And you said student, right? That also kind of works. Yeah. Except it carries probably too much of an academic or intellectual model. Yeah. Where apprentice gets a little bit more to the heart of the role of demonstration. Yeah. The role of demonstration on the part of the teacher or master or whomever. And then the expectation that the apprentice allow that demonstration to inform their own work. Yeah.

And I thought I was thinking about it in terms of, because they mentioned this, of like it's training. Like when we talk about discipleship, it's training. We're talking about apprenticing Jesus. We're being trained. Yep. and i'm like i'm currently training to run a marathon in may and like i'm not i'm not out of shape by any by any means no but like i'm also not necessarily in marathon shape shape. Sure. I'm not in running shape.

So I've been training and I have been running and making sure my strength program is like conducive to runner's strength, not necessarily like the other types of things that I was doing. And the reality is that I, you know, if I went out and tried to run the marathon right now. With little training, my body and my mind's response to it would be like failure. Yeah. You're going to fail. Right. It's going to crash and burn. Yeah. We'd find you halfway. Right. Curled up in a ball. Right.

You'd find me a quarter of the way. One of the things that I have done is I have enlisted the help of someone who has run marathons before, and they've developed a training plan for me.

Gonna run this many miles on this day this many miles on this day this many miles on this day right and week by week by week the miles increase until you get to the point where you can successfully run the marathon and what i feel like the church does which is an interesting way to talk about it because i am essentially um um talking about myself yeah i know this feels is really like are we calling ourselves out yeah we're talking about the shadow yeah we're just talking about the the reality of

it right um is we i actually said this this sunday from the pulpit i was like well you want to know the answer to intimacy with jesus you're not going to like the answer because it's the same answer that's always been right it's it's an intentional time with him right it's you know building out time with him time in his word yeah right um time in prayer listening to like speaking in prayer listening in prayer responding in prayer not just hearing but doing yeah

the things like obeying his commands you know we're talking from um john John chapter 15, you know, those who love me obey my commands. Yep.

And so, where was I going with that? The church is kind of guilty. You were on that training metaphor. Yeah, okay. So, like, the church is kind of guilty of just saying, read your Bible more, pray more, come to church. Just do that. Just do that. And that's kind of the, I feel like, the parallel of being just like, just go run the marathon. Yeah. Just put your running shoes on. Mm-hmm.

Put your running clothes on and just go out and start running and like, you know, just don't stop until you're done. And then like you're, you know, you're a marathon runner, right? Where it's not taking into account that there are like people who are obese and out of shape and their nutrition is bad and they've never run a mile. And now we want them to run 26.2.

And so i take that kind of correlation into the life of discipleship or apprenticeship or training or whatever and the thing is is that i actually still think that the answer is the answer, or at least it's a part of the answer i still do think that you know time with the lord in his word and in prayer and doing the things that he like i think that's part of the answer yeah it is but But the question is, is like, what is our expectation of people's intensity in that? Right.

And are we showing them what it means to read the word? Yeah. Are we showing them what it means to pray? Jesus taught his disciples how to pray and he modeled prayer and he brought them along with him as he prayed and they heard his prayers and they witnessed his prayers and he He taught them about prayer, right? And so he was offering them like the apprentice model of prayer development, prayer life.

So my question then for myself and for the shadow life of the church is, okay, am I expending energy as a pastor and shepherd and teacher and all that? In helping people walk the first mile? Yeah. Am I teaching them how to read the word? Mm-hmm. Am I breaking down the barriers of the social church constructs that says you have to read three chapters a day? Mm-hmm. And you have to do it every day. And you got to start in Genesis. And you got to get up at 5 a.m.

With your perfectly brewed coffee. Right. Posted on Instagram. Which is kind of like the expectation. But is it...

Is it apprenticing people? Right. I don't think it is. Yeah. Or, like, it's, because, like, I'm going to make an assumption, because I don't train with you. I don't know any martial arts. But I'm assuming that when you train people in jiu-jitsu, like, you're, like, scaffolding them.

Them you've got to teach like a basic like move or form or thing to do and then i'm probably when even when you're kind of like practicing with them you're probably even just kind of like all right they kind of did that right but i'm not you're not really like you're not when you're sparring with someone who's just brand new you're not going full bore no you're you're actually you're probably just like okay i need them to get this technique down

even though i know i can counter that with this i'm just simply not going to use that yeah i'm teaching my son jujitsu right now right right yeah yeah who is like half your height yeah um and you know but then there's also so i think i think you're right i think there's that we're not giving people that early scaffolding that early learning but then i also think that there's this other component in which there are are people who have managed to make it to a certain level,

and then they don't know what else is next, or they don't know how to get to the next thing. Yep. Because there's different types of praying, you know, in different ways to read Scripture, in different levels on which to read Scripture.

And, you know, those don't always fit into programs, or at least traditional evangelical programs, as nicely or neatly and that leaves people getting to a certain level and then they're like okay well i've stalled out here and then what are they going to do yep, agree um so i think it requires a little bit of honest examination by churches to say um, when i think this is john mark comer's frustration with the church is when are we going to,

stop doing this and start doing something else yeah when are we going to do, when are we going to recognize, admit, and then rectify the reality that this is not doing for people what? What we hope it would. Right. Or what we think Christ wants from us. Right. So that's an honest question that needs examination, I think, by every church leader. Yeah. Myself included. Mm-hmm. We're trying, we're thinking about it. We are. Does that help? I mean, I think so. Yeah? Yeah.

Yeah. You know, if you, if you want some good reading, I would go, we'll link the podcast here, the Newhoff podcast. We'll link John's new book. Yeah. Practicing the Way. Yeah. And maybe we can link the Critical Journey book as well. And those give you an opportunity for some deeper learning if you want or some deeper exposure to these ideas.

And as always, if you feel like you have something to say about this or other things, you want to comment on the video, if you're watching on YouTube, it's easiest there probably. Please do so. So if you have a question or a comment or you want us to kind of tackle some topic that's been on your mind or heart or scripture or whatever, you can always text it to us. We have a texting line here for the podcast. It's 716-201-0507. And we will address that pretty quick, usually.

I mean, we record every week, so we'd like to be able to get to those.

As always if you would uh we thank you for listening if you would uh like this episode like the podcast share it subscribe to it wherever it is you're listening if you're not any of those things that would be super helpful and encouraging for us um you'll be happy to know that we get paid nothing for this um zero so um we're not sponsored by anything we're not sponsored Although I still am looking for sponsorships from energy drink companies.

New year new me i have drastically reduced my consumption of energy drinks so for you, i've been doing a lot of reading and a lot of study on the um like half-life of stuff this is a ps to the podcast but like some of you know some of you don't know that i have a second job, as a chaplain for police agencies in chautauqua county yeah and so um and a lot of my work is is around helping officers process complex trauma.

And in my reading, one of the major times that officers process complex trauma is during REM sleep, or when people process complex trauma is during REM sleep. Your brain replays those in your eyes going back and forth, kind of puts it in the right place in your brain. Yeah. Right? Puts that memory in the right place. Yep. Well, in order to get to REM sleep, you have to go to sleep. Yes. You know, and there is a tremendous issue within the law enforcement community.

Right, yeah. The overconsumption of caffeine. Yeah. Working a long shift, working a late shift, like let's just pound a monster or a red bull. A couple. You know, they come on shift, they grab a coffee in their car. And then a couple hours later, it's a energy drink.

And then towards the end of the shift, they're on a long call, they need to pick me up, they grab another one and so on a shift, you're six, seven, eight, 900 milligrams of caffeine into your body and then you go home and you try to sleep. They can't sleep and so what do they do? They have a drink. Right. Alcohol. Which also inhibit, it might help you fall asleep initially. It does not help you. It disrupts REM sleep. Yes, it disrupts REM. Alcohol disrupts REM.

Right. So now you have an overconsumption of caffeine and an overconsumption of alcohol and you miss REM sleep. And then you do that over the course of a 20 to 25 year career. Yeah. And your ability to process complex trauma has been greatly diminished. Because you had too many energy drinks as a part of that. Yeah.

And caffeine too, like how's that like half-life it takes. 12-hour half-life. So it takes so long for that cup of coffee you had at even noon to be out of your system. So if I have a 150 milligram of caffeine cup of coffee at noon, which is a pretty high, it's a pretty big cup of coffee. Yeah. Usually coffee is like 80 to 90 milligrams for an eight ounce cup.

Yeah. so say i have a 16 ounce cup i'm in the 150 to 200 milligram range of caffeine at 12 noon at midnight i'm gonna have half that yeah so caffeine has a half life of 12 hours so at midnight i'm gonna have best case scenario 100 grams of 100 milligrams of caffeine in my system right still affecting still disruptive to rem yeah so um it's i said a lot to say i'm still willing to take energy drink sponsorships we'll just have to record way earlier in the day.

Um and um and yeah if you're interested in that kind of stuff which i really that is really fascinating to me so i've been reading a lot on it, But it's super important. It is. Take care of your body, too. All right. Music.