>> Peter Robinson: The amateur athlete, the student who played for the love of the game. That was the old ideal. Here's a glimpse of the new reality. At the University of Utah, a couple of organizations have just offered each scholarship member of the football team a new pickup truck. On the future of college sports, former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and former quarterback of the Colts and quarterback of the Stanford University football team where he played right here.
Andrew Luck on uncommon knowledge now. [MUSIC] >> Peter Robinson: Welcome to uncommon knowledge. I'm Peter Robinson. There are two Condoleezza Rices. One is a scholar's scholar and a diplomat's diploma diplomat. The other, an athlete, and sports fan who was a competitive figure skater as a girl and is now a member of the ownership group of the Denver Broncos.
This past year, the second Condoleezza Rice, now director of the Hoover Institution, served as special advisor on athletics to the president of Stanford. We'll be coming back to that. Just as there are two Condi Rices, there are two Andrew Lucks. One is, of course, Andrew Luck, the star quarterback. He broke record after record here at Stanford. Then in 2012, he went to the Indianapolis Colts as the top draft pick in the entire NFL. I find that more impressive than a Nobel Prize.
So I'm gonna say it again. This man, in 2012, was the top draft pick in the entire NFL. >> Speaker 2: With the first pick in the 2012 NFL draft, the Indianapolis Colts select Andrew Luck, quarterback, Stanford. >> Speaker 3: [APPLAUSE] >> Peter Robinson: He remained with the Colts for seven years. The other, Andrew Luck, the brainiac. As an undergrad here at Stanford, Mister Luck majored in architectural design. Now he has returned to Stanford to earn a graduate degree in education.
Condi, Andrew, thank you for joining us. Well, actually, this is, in a way, your home. >> Andrew Luck: [LAUGH] >> Peter Robinson: So thanks for picking, thanks for inviting us in. >> Condoleezza Rice: Great to be with you, Peter. >> Andrew Luck: Absolutely. Thanks for making me feel comfortable- >> Condoleezza Rice: Yeah, [LAUGH]. >> Andrew Luck: On a place like this. >> Peter Robinson: Condoleezza Rice in 2018, quote, the collegiate model, that is the old model of the student athlete.
The collegiate model is worth defending. The athlete is engaging in an activity that is going to give a lifetime of value in the form of a college degree, close quote. The college degree should be enough. We're going to come to all the changes that have taken place since you said that in 2012. But for now, do you want to stand on that, that the old model is still in some basic way worth defending? >> Condoleezza Rice: Well, Peter, it depends on what you mean by the old model.
I think the essence of the so-called old model, that the value proposition, is that you get to play your sport at the highest levels. You get the very best training, the very best coaching, the best opportunity to showcase your talents. And by the way, if you the right thing, you get a college degree. And we know that a college degree is worth $1 million over your lifetime in earnings. So that's the value proposition. I'll just say one other thing.
I did a commission for the NCAA on men's basketball, and 59% of D1 players think they're going to the NBA. The right number is 1.5% UD of Plan B. It's called a college degree. >> Peter Robinson: All right, Andrew, you played here at Stanford as a student athlete under the old rules, but you packed these stands. You took this university to the Orange bowl and the Fiesta bowl, and it is safe to say that you contributed to millions in television revenues. Should you have been paid?
>> Andrew Luck: That's a great question, and I think that's a question that a lot of folks are trying to answer right now. And on the heels of what doctor Rice just said, I think there are so many aspects of the old amateur college athletics model that ring true and speak to the values that I certainly feel. And maybe how I grew up and the importance of getting an education and realizing I had the privilege of growing up at home where my father was a professional quarterback.
But that ended way before I was born, and he had a five-year career. So I think I knew that professional sports, if I was good enough to make it and if the stars aligned, was gonna be a brief, intense existence in my broader life. >> Peter Robinson: Okay. >> Andrew Luck: Should I have been paid? I think it would have been nice. Why not? [LAUGH] It would have been nice. >> Peter Robinson: We can work with that. Hold that thought.
All right, so let me go into the revolution in college sports in recent years. This will take a moment or two to set up, but let's just establish the background here. It comes down to one word. Money. D1 athletics generated 15.8 billion in revenues in 2019, which is the last year before the pandemic. And it's not just staggering sums of money, it's the concentration of that money. One sport, football, accounted for, as best I can tell, a little more than half of that vast income.
And even among football teams, if you look at the Football Bowl Subdivision, the FBS, which are the most, the biggest revenue teams, of the 130 teams in the FBS, only 25 showed a net income, so to speak. The other 105 teams lost money. Gigantic sums of money, tightly concentrated. Men's basketball brings in money, too, but not nearly as much as football. >> Condoleezza Rice: Not nearly. >> Peter Robinson: What's that? >> Condoleezza Rice: I said not nearly as much.
>> Peter Robinson: Not nearly as much. >> Condoleezza Rice: Not nearly as much. >> Peter Robinson: Okay, so we've got the money. >> Condoleezza Rice: Well, just a second, though, Peter. >> Peter Robinson: Okay. >> Condoleezza Rice: I'm going to interrupt you. Why do you think only a very few football teams generate so-called profit? Why do you think that is? It's because if you are a university like Stanford, we play 36 sports.
36. That includes women's volleyball, it includes men's golf, it includes soccer for both men and women, et cetera, etc. 36 sports. Now, the only sport that actually makes money is football. So where do you think that football income is going to? It's going to cover 35 sports so that we can play a broad number of sports, so that we can play women's title nine sports.
And so when you say football is generating all of this money, if I simply say, all right, therefore, those people like Andrew who played it extremely well should be compensated for that somehow. What am I gonna do about all the other sports that we want to play, including, by the way, that Stanford plays a significant number of so-called Olympic sports? We would have been the seventh or eighth country in the world in terms of medals in several Olympics.
Do you really wanna sacrifice that because you can only generate money in. >> Peter Robinson: I can tell you what I don't want to do. I don't want to cross you in this conversation- >> Andrew Luck: [LAUGH]. >> Peter Robinson: But, so I do hear what she just said, though, is that from the ages of 18 to 22, when you're playing on this field, you were already a philanthropist. You were subsidizing 35 sports. >> Condoleezza Rice: Watch it, Andrew, weren't you married to a gymnast?
>> Peter Robinson: Including your wife's? You're married to a gym. Okay, so can we. Let's take so huge money. The NCAA has responded. There have been court decisions. There's a case that went all the way to the Supreme Court. The NCAA lost, and we've got two. Absolutely basic changes to the way particularly football is played. And one of these is the transfer portal. 2018, the NCAA institutes the transfer portal, which makes it much easier for an athlete to transfer from one team to another.
And by 2021, there were over 10,000 sports transfers. Last year, the USC football team. Long may they be cursed. >> Condoleezza Rice: [LAUGH]. >> Andrew Luck: It's okay with me. [LAUGH] >> Peter Robinson: Okay, last year- >> Condoleezza Rice: You never lost to them, did you? >> Andrew Luck: No. [LAUGH] >> Condoleezza Rice: All right- >> Andrew Luck: [LAUGH] >> Condoleezza Rice: [CROSSTALK] That's
great. >> Peter Robinson: Last year, the USC football team took 26 players through the portal, and this year, Coach Sanders over in Colorado took 49 players. Is this a good thing or a bad thing, Andrew? >> Andrew Luck: Yeah, I'll give it a try. >> Peter Robinson: Take a shot. >> Andrew Luck: I think there is a lot of good in it, and I think- >> Peter Robinson: You do? >> Andrew Luck: I do, I think protection for players is a good thing at the end of the day.
Remember, I was a union member in the NFL, I believe in player safety, health, safety. I believe in the privilege of choice and getting in better situations. And so I think the opening up to a certain degree, flexibility and choice for players in sports in college can be a good thing. I think if rubber meets the road and educational attainment becomes a sacrifice.
If exploitation in some way is part of the game, I think those are sort of the scary things we need to think about, and maybe aren't doing a great job right now in this ecosystem of making sure that certainly the educational attainment piece is being honored. But I wanna believe that there's a way in which the system can work, that athletes.
And not just football, this is for a bunch of sports, can move and transfer between schools without draconian punitive consequences, yet still hold on to some educational value. >> Condoleezza Rice: The ideal that Andrew just articulated would be great, but I don't think that's the way the transfer portal is working. >> Andrew Luck: [LAUGH] >> Condoleezza Rice: The way the transfer portal is working right now. >> Peter Robinson: I get angry with him.
>> Condoleezza Rice: The way it's working right now, of course it's choice for players, but it's basically coaches are going out and recruiting entire squads. >> Peter Robinson: Yeah. >> Condoleezza Rice: I was watching football on Saturday, surprise, surprise, and there was a team that shall remain nameless that was in the Top 5, 67% of their starters are transfers.
Now, what does that say for all the kids who went to this university, expected to be able to play, did their best, but they weren't quite good enough, and so they were told, leave, go someplace else. That's how the transfer portal is working. That's what's happening, and that isn't really choice for the players. It might be choice for the very elite. But that kid who was a walk on and got dumped by the coach because he wasn't quite good enough. And you mentioned, I'm an NFL owner.
Somebody said, well, it's like the NFL. No, I'm sorry, the NFL has rules. During free agency, there's a period in which you can be a free agent. We have unrestricted free agents, restricted free agents. Teams understand the rules. There are essentially no rules right now in the transfer portal. I just want to mention one other thing about the transfer portal. You mentioned the educational attainment piece.
If I told you that Joe Smith doesn't play a sport at all, but Joe Smith has gone to three different colleges in three years- >> Peter Robinson: I'd say there's a problem. >> Condoleezza Rice: Would you expect that Joe Smith is actually getting an education doing that? That's true for a particular men's basketball team that ended up in the final four last year.
So if the transfer portal were truly just a matter about a player getting to make a choice cuz things didn't quite work out here, that would be one thing. But that's not what the transfer point is right now. >> Peter Robinson: All my questions are gonna be the questions of somebody who sits up there, not somebody who play down. >> Andrew Luck: We both sit up there, by the way.
[LAUGH] >> Peter Robinson: So, one question I have is, don't want to attack, actually, my impulse is to attack Colorado but we beat them, so Stanford beat them a couple weeks ago. So I don't need to pile on. But if you've got essentially half your squad, and most of your starters weren't part of the school last year and might get poached away, what does that do to the fan?
What does it do to the sense that these young men on the field in some way, are part of the institution, they're representing the institution because they're genuine students there? Question one of two. Question two of two, if you're on the coaching staff and you're bringing along a freshman, if this kid is really good, he's gonna get noticed by somebody else.
I mean, I just don't understand how you coach, how any sense of connection, real connection and commitment between the institution and the players on the field can be sustained if it becomes, frankly, purely mercenary. Kid goes where he wants to go for his career, how do you answer that? >> Andrew Luck: Yeah, I think I was curious about this question as well.
I know part of what in the sort of nostalgic, being back on Stanford's campus and thinking about those connections, at least I felt, in going to class and living in dormitories. And I think in many ways added up to a real sense of community that I'm forever grateful for and get to live in a sense, again. So I was curious, so I went and traveled with the Stanford team to Colorado, to Boulder this year to watch the game.
And as a fan of Stanford and closely tied to it, was thrilled, obviously, that we won. And in that dramatic fashion. >> Speaker 6: What a! What a highlight! >> Andrew Luck: And I'll say this about to throw a wrench into it a little bit, the stands were packed. Buffalo fans were happy, they enjoyed their team. They weren't happy at the end of the game, obviously, but it was an atmosphere that hasn't existed in Boulder for a long time.
And I think there's a lot, this is where I'm struggling to find clear answers, perhaps, on what is good, what is bad in college football. >> Peter Robinson: Coach Sanders brought those kids in through the transfer portal, but he electrified the whole institution. >> Andrew Luck: Yeah, and so I think to discredit any good things that happen would be too simplistic. >> Condoleezza Rice: Let me tell you, so Deion Sanders was one of my favorite players of all time, all right?
Closing speed as a defensive back, unbelievable. He is not playing against the rules because there are no rules. And so I'm not going to slam Deion Sanders for taking advantage of the circumstances. And it's true. I grew up in Denver, and so I have a lot of friends who were Colorado students, Colorado fans. It's been a long time since they had that kind of energy, but it's gonna be very interesting. They've now lost several games in a row.
If it doesn't quite pan out, and now they're another new 50 that come in because maybe I can get better players. So now people start poaching my players. I don't think this is sustainable. That's what I'm really saying. Even if you wanna make arguments that there are some aspects of it that we might wish to say have some benefit to the players, I don't think it's sustainable.
And I do think it causes an athlete to do something that I would have quit skating a long time after, shortly after I started, had it been about winning every competition, cuz I didn't win any. I wasn't very good. But I kept waking up every morning and practicing, and working and trying to get better. And when I did have a little success, it was wonderful. And I wonder about all those kids who are now just being shoved aside cuz they weren't quite good enough.
But given a chance, they might have gotten better. Isn't that supposed to be a part of the college experience as well? >> Andrew Luck: Yeah, I'd like to add, I think, I wonder what it's like, and I'm just Put it going back into freshman Andrew, who's a quarterback who for the first time in his life, is not starting on a team. And is not the best player on the team and deserves to be on the bench cuz he's not very good.
And I know that there are 30 to 40, 50 young men, boys and college teams that are sitting on the mix that aren't ready to play. And can you trust that if you work hard enough over the next couple of years, you'll get a chance, or will someone else come in and take your spot? And that part I think, also, we're still young in this era, if you will. >> Condoleezza Rice: I hope people will take that because Andrew's also coaching at Palsville College.
A kid that you see at Pali who's maybe not that great, but he's gonna get a chance to go to college and he's gonna get a chance to play football. You hope that he gets a chance to get better cuz a lot happens to a kid between 18 and 20. >> Andrew Luck: Absolutely. >> Peter Robinson: The other of these two absolutely basic changes, the initials NIL, name, image and likeness. So again, let me take a moment to set this up.
The Supreme Court rules against the NCAA, arguing that it couldn't prevent schools from authoring athletes certain education related benefits. The NCAA responds by adopting new rules. I'm quoting from the NCAA website. College athletes now have the opportunity to benefit from their name, image and likeness. That rule is adopted in 2021, less than two years ago. By this year, this is how fast this has moved.
Boosters at the University of Utah, as I mentioned at the top of the show, were giving a new pickup truck to each scholarship member of the football team. And a lot of players are openly promoting products. Here is an example, Colorado quarterback Shedeur Sanders, quote, this is a tweet. I'm quoting word for word from the tweet. It's tailgate season, and I partnered with @pldsports to create my own legendary brand of barbecue sauce, close quote.
So Andrew justice for players at last, or the death of any sense of love of game. >> Andrew Luck: Are there only two choices? >> Peter Robinson: Those are your two choices. She gets the subtlety. >> Condoleezza Rice: Right, I get to do the subtlety. >> Andrew Luck: [LAUGH] [INAUDIBLE], I've said this before, and I think about it in full disclosure, I am part of a collective here at Stanford and have done NIL deals with current student.
My wife and I have done NIL deals with current student athletes, and we think it's great. And where else do you stop someone from using the opportunity to capitalize in the market on their name, image, and likeness? So I think that- >> Peter Robinson: Why are you knotty? >> Condoleezza Rice: Because on this one I agree. >> Peter Robinson: You do? >> Condoleezza Rice: Yes, on name, image, and likeness.
I don't like the way it's being used, I don't think every student athlete ought to be given this. But I will tell you that before this ruling, the only students who couldn't generate income on their name, image, and likeness were athletes. So if you were a musician and you made a highly successful video and it went viral, you could absolutely benefit from that and monetize that. If you were a college music major or a college artist, you could benefit.
So I have no problem with a student athlete being able to benefit on their name, image, and likeness. And, in fact, I think the idea that Shedeur Sanders wants to sell barbecue sauce just fine with me. I don't even mind if somebody wants to promote a product. And I will tell you a very interesting thing, at Stanford, at least the women athletes have done better than the men.
So it is, in part, the profile of some of our women golfers, some of our women basketball players, that they've done better than a lot of our male athletes. So the fear that it was gonna be a title IX problem, maybe, maybe not. Now, the piece that I do always say to student athletes, though, is be careful what you use your name, image, and likeness for, because your name, image, and likeness is for a lifetime. You're not probably gonna be embarrassed because you sold barbecue sauce.
But there could be things that you use your name, image, and likeness for that when you're 35, you're gonna be sorry that you did. And so I think we do owe our student athletes advising and some counsel about how to use this opportunity. >> Peter Robinson: One more of a question. You're the one who raised this question of sustainability, and as you said, this is all very new. I guess we're all groping toward protocols and rules and so forth. You served as provost of this university.
I cannot escape the thought that if there comes a day, and there may, when some new version of Andrew Luck has deals that enable him to earn two or three times as much as a full professor of classics or a full professor of history. That puts a torque on the whole ethos of this university, that would be a problem. >> Condoleezza Rice: Have you looked at what some of our students have earned for the app that they developed? >> Peter Robinson: Okay. >> Andrew Luck: [LAUGH]. >> Peter Robinson: Okay.
>> Condoleezza Rice: No, Peter, I'm- >> Peter Robinson: If you tell me not to worry, I will stop worrying. >> Condoleezza Rice: I am worried, and you know that I'm concerned. I think there are ways that name, image, and likeness. If the NCAA had gotten on top of it in that same basketball commission in 2017, we said to the NCAA, get rules now. They decided to wait for the court decision and then they lost control of it. So again, as a matter, NIL might be okay, name, image, and likeness.
If Sanders wants to sell barbecue sauce, or if I saw the kid, Caleb Williams, he's doing some commercial for Nissan, [INAUDIBLE]. Okay, but the way that it's evolving has to do now. Okay, I'll give you a bigger NIL deal if you'll transfer to so and so university, all right? And the numbers are getting really crazy in that context. So we didn't get ahead of some of this. And then with the court decisions, we're running to catch up. But I will say if universities can stay true to their values.
>> Peter Robinson: Right. >> Condoleezza Rice: And can say, I don't mind that you are doing. And for most kids, by the way, name, image, and likenesses, I'll show your bike on my Instagram, and can I get a free bike? Okay, that's what most of the NIL deals are like. So it's another one of those circumstances that probably you weren't gonna stay at a place that the only people who could use name, image, and likeness were athletes in a university that wasn't gonna hold.
But it's the combination of these things, transfer portal and NIL and big deals. That's what's really [CROSSTALK]. >> Peter Robinson: You don't see any danger that boosters would get together and say, okay, we're gonna cut an NIL deal with the whole team. We want a team photo, and that means every man on this football team or every woman on the volleyball team gets. You name the amount of money that we need to offer to recruit the kids we want to recruit.
>> Condoleezza Rice: [CROSSTALK] Why did you go to recruit? >> Andrew Luck: Well, I think there's some of the guardrails that Doctor Rice is also, or the lack of guard roles around that pay for play, in essence, sort of is existing in college right now. And I think it's murky about what it looks like, but collectives can pay and you're not- >> Peter Robinson: And your view is we should learn to live with it. Or you agree?
>> Andrew Luck: I think because of the transfer rules, and NIL rules, and some other things, and the lack of guardrails. And a lack perhaps, of an oversight body, like the NCAA, stepping in and saying, hey, this is okay, this is not okay, that we're living in a bit of the Wild west. And then conference realignment has happened. >> Condoleezza Rice: That's right, that's the other big thing. >> Andrew Luck: So we'll get to that.
Which I think also has laid bare the power of television and television money, and football, its place in our consumer society. So I think, yeah, its the Wild West still, I think, and I'm not sure where we are. >> Peter Robinson: On this next segment, I'm going to be speaking to Condi in her capacity as special advisor for athletics to the president of Stanford University. And I would like you to feel free to help me question her, because I wanna know what just happened.
June of last year, USC and UCLA announced that they're leaving the Pac-12 for the Big 10, where they would reportedly increase their television revenues from 20 something to nearly $100 million each. They go for the big money, the Pac-12 is now the Pac-10. In early August of this past summer, I'm piecing this together from various press accounts, and I'm waiting for you to, if I get this wrong, you know the inside story better than I.
>> Condoleezza Rice: So far you're right. >> Andrew Luck: You've got a long way to go. [LAUGH] >> Peter Robinson: In early August, the presidents of the remaining tenants institutions were to meet to sign a media deal with Apple. The Los Angeles Times, quote, ten minutes before the meeting was to begin, Washington informed the league that it was leaving for the Big Ten. Once the Huskies left, the Ducks followed.
The Arizona, Arizona State, and Utah exodus to the Big 12 flowed naturally from there, close quote. In a single weekend, the venerable Pac-12, had its origins all the way back in the 1950s, was reduced to just 4 teams. This is a diplomatic problem that requires a former secretary of state to address. >> Andrew Luck: [LAUGH] >> Peter Robinson: Condi Rice becomes special advisor to the president of this university for athletics.
And by September, she has brokered a deal under which Stanford University, located as the seagull flies, about 11 miles from the Pacific. Stanford University will now, beginning next year, will participate in the Atlantic Coast Conference. How did you do that? >> Condoleezza Rice: [LAUGH] Well, I didn't do it alone, let me just be very clear about that,.
>> Peter Robinson: Okay. >> Condoleezza Rice: When the music stopped in August, after the Arizona and Utah had gone to the Big 12 along with Colorado, [CROSSTALK] that one weekend was the complete [CROSSTALK]. >> Peter Robinson: It just fell apart. >> Condoleezza Rice: It just fell apart. And look, it's still intact, all right? The Pac-12 is still intact. >> Peter Robinson: This year. >> Condoleezza Rice: And I just wanna be very clear, we technically have not left the Pac-12, all right?
We will make that notification. But we didn't have a chair to sit on once the music stopped. And our athletes were the most vocal about wanting to be able to play sports at the elite level, that they came here to play, at the level that they expected to play. That we actually owed them, having them come here, to be able to play at that level. And that really means a Power Five conference. It means one of the 5 that you, Big 10, Big 12, ACC, or Pac-12.
With the Pac-12 teetering, the ACC became our best choice. I don't think I'm revealing any secrets, the Big Ten was a bit in exhaustion from expansion, they'd just taken in four teams, and so that wasn't going to happen. We decided that the ACC was our best option, and that we fit culturally in the ACC with a lot of private universities and public universities of our same academic peerage. So, Duke, and Wake Forest, and Virginia, and North Carolina, and Notre Dame.
And so, it was a good decision, but I think it's gonna be, we have a lot of adjustments to make. Now, one good news is that, one piece of good news is that SMU also came in with Cal and with Stanford, and we did lock arms with and stay with Cal. And the fact that SMU is in Dallas may give us opportunities to do some play between the two coasts in Dallas, which would be helpful. >> Peter Robinson: Okay, may I ask you, first of all, on behalf of all Stanford fans, thank you.
Because if it had remained the Pac-4, you just got a situation which is just plain uncomfortable. It just can't work. So you ended up with something workable. Did you end up with, in your own mind, the best that we could do for now? Or when this all finally came together at the very end of August and in September, did you say, this is a wonderful new opportunity, this can improve the level of play, give new opportunities to fans and athletes alike?
Did you really think, actually this has worked out more than fine? >> Condoleezza Rice: I did think that this worked out fine, I would have preferred the Pac-12 twelve to stay intact. It's actually 108 or 103 year old conference, so it's kind of, [CROSSTALK] yeah, well, Pac-4 from the Pac-4. So it would have been great. But given that that wasn't an option, the ACC option seems like a very good one to me.
In fact, when I think about Clemson coming in here or Florida State coming in here, we know what happens when Notre Dame comes in here. There's great excitement. >> Peter Robinson: They're fans, [INAUDIBLE]. [COUGH] Oftentimes [INAUDIBLE], we can work on that, yes. >> Condoleezza Rice: We'll work on that. Andrew's working on that. >> Peter Robinson: Yes, yes.
>> Condoleezza Rice: But the other piece of it is, again, for the other sports, other than football, to be in a conference where our student athletes will play their peers, kids that they've met along the way in junior golf or on the circuit. That's really important. >> Peter Robinson: You're now a junior in high school and you're thinking about Stanford, but you realize you're going to have to spend a lot of time on airplanes flying across the continent of North America to play games.
Would you still have come to Stanford? >> Andrew Luck: Absolutely. >> Peter Robinson: You would have. >> Andrew Luck: Yeah, and you lived this in the NFL a little more than I lived in the Pac-12 while I was here. A charter flight with good food ain't the worst thing in the world. [LAUGH] It's a treat. And this is football, which- >> Peter Robinson: Volleyball, field hockey, they won't have charter planes. >> Andrew Luck: This, I'm curious, certainly as [CROSSTALK].
>> Peter Robinson: Feel free to ask your question. >> Condoleezza Rice: [CROSSTALK] Go ahead. >> Andrew Luck: What challenges we foresee, and where some of the opportunities like, cuz I am in lockstep with you, the ACC provides competition, I think, for a lot of sports, that is really, really incredible and amazing. >> Condoleezza Rice: Yes, yes. >> Andrew Luck: And a lot of peer institutions that, I think, approach athletics and scholarship in the same way.
And the challenges do exist for a lot of Olympic sports on the road, which we hang our hat on. >> Condoleezza Rice: That's right. No, those challenges exist, not for every Olympic sport, a lot of the sports actually travel a lot already. So, golf, tennis, one that had to travel, field hockey, we don't play field hockey on the West Coast, and so they were traveling east all the time anyway. We believe it's about 22 of the 36 sports, it won't matter a great deal at all.
>> Peter Robinson: Because they were already travelling so much. >> Condoleezza Rice: Because they were already traveling a lot. >> Peter Robinson: Okay, swimming, gymnastics? >> Condoleezza Rice: The ones that really, to us appear to be most affected, soccer, baseball, softball, maybe volleyball, And we're working really closely with the ACC that wants to see this work for their athletes and for ours.
It's why some Dallas tournaments may be a smart way to do this, but you don't always get your opportunities in a nice, neat package. And this- >> Peter Robinson: You can always get what you asked for, that philosopher Mick Jagger once said. >> Andrew Luck: [LAUGH] >> Condoleezza Rice: Yeah, once said, but I think we can work it out for our students, we'll do everything we can. And the main thing is to make sure that academically they can continue to perform.
>> Andrew Luck: Yeah. >> Condoleezza Rice: I will say, this is just a little funny, but it actually takes longer to get to Pullman, Washington commercially than it does to get to Atlanta. >> Andrew Luck: [LAUGH] >> Condoleezza Rice: So that's just a little point. >> Peter Robinson: Okay, all right. >> Andrew Luck: I would like to go back to your earlier question when it comes to Stanford.
I think part of what Stanford student athletes are looking for is the highest level of competition and whatever they're doing. And Doctor Rice alluded to that and sort of what student athletes talked about when the conference shake up was going on. And I think as a high school athlete coming out, you're looking at what the elite level is. And I think it would have been a really, really tough pill to swallow had Stanford not been sitting at the elite level- >> Peter Robinson: Right.
>> Andrew Luck: Of athletic competition in football, basketball, and all down the line. >> Peter Robinson: Okay, we're talking about sports in general, college sports in general, but we keep coming back to football. So could I, it seems unlikely that I'll ever have the two of you at a table again. So may I just ask about that game? Let me give you two quotations. Here's NBC announcer Bob Costas, he's speaking in 2017 after a study that examined 111 NFL players found brain injuries in 110.
This was a bad year for the NFL. Bob Costas quote, the existential question is the nature of football itself. If I had an athletically gifted 12 or 13-year old son, I wouldn't let him play, close quote. Here's the second quotation. Andrew Luck on August 24th, 2019, when you announced your retirement from the Colts. Quote, I'm quoting you, for the last four years or so, I've been in this cycle of injury, pain, rehab, injury, pain, rehab.
It's been unceasing and unrelenting both in season and off season, the only way I see out is to no longer play football, close quote. At the current levels of weight and speed and violence, is this great game sustainable? >> Andrew Luck: I hope so and I think so. And I don't have the empirical data to share with you about injuries. Or maybe we get some of your poli sci fellows to get [LAUGH] [INAUDIBLE]. >> Condoleezza Rice: [INAUDIBLE] On regression.
>> Andrew Luck: But I'm coaching high school football. >> Peter Robinson: I know, you love this game- >> Andrew Luck: I do. >> Peter Robinson: I wanna know why. >> Andrew Luck: I do- It puts. [LAUGH] I do love this game and it's been very good to me. It's given me a life in many ways that I could never have imagined, it's incredible.
And I think part of the responsibility now being out of the game is to try and come back and help the game evolve and continue to grow into a safer, I think you've seen rule changes that are safer. I think tackling needs to continue to progress to be a safer action in the sport. I think we need to use technology to help make the game safer. I think this game is too important to America for it to go anywhere. [LAUGH] >> Peter Robinson: Why is it important to the country?
>> Andrew Luck: Because Saturdays people get together all over this place and watch it. >> Condoleezza Rice: Yes. >> Andrew Luck: And on Sundays they get together and watch their teams and they, and it might be out of my lane here, but it seems like one of the things that does bind us together across differences. >> Condoleezza Rice: It does. >> Andrew Luck: [LAUGH] >> Condoleezza Rice: And I will say this, there aren't too many things. >> Peter Robinson: We have less and less.
>> Condoleezza Rice: There are not too many things where you will go to a game and you'll have the CEO and the shop steward in the same stuff, their 49 stuffer, their colt stuff. >> Peter Robinson: And a Republican Democrat? >> Condoleezza Rice: And all they care about at that moment is how their team plays. >> Peter Robinson: Right. >> Condoleezza Rice: But let me just say something about this. Look, we're working really, NFL's worked very hard on safety. NCAA's worked very hard part on safety.
There are panels with neurologists, the leading neuroscientist about what can we do. But let me just say one thing, Peter, I think we can absolutely try to make the game safer and safer and safer. To a certain extent, sports isn't so safe. This is not the only sport in which we have concussions. >> Andrew Luck: Yeah. >> Condoleezza Rice: I had two as a figure skater cuz if you bang your head on the ice, you're likely to get a concussion. >> Peter Robinson: Right.
>> Condoleezza Rice: I have in my back pitched vertebrae from figure skating, right? So, the fact is athletics is not natural to the body. But with better training, with better rules, I think we can diminish some of the impacts. >> Peter Robinson: Technology is the way out here? >> Condoleezza Rice: No, not just technology, study. Study by, I think for the first time we really have over the last several years had neurologists and people who understand the brain and what's happening in this.
And if you watch now, if somebody even looks like a hint of concussion in the NFL or in the NCAA, they're off the field just like this. There was a professional golfer, who's a friend of mine, who got hit with a golf ball. And the PGA wasn't as quick to get into a protocol because they hadn't thought about it. So a lot of this will, I hope, evolve into better and better. >> Peter Robinson: So, why do you love the game?
I wanna know, you before these cameras started rolling- >> Condoleezza Rice: Yeah, yeah, yes. >> Peter Robinson: You talked about you own a piece of the Bronco, so I can understand that yesterday was a good day for you. >> Condoleezza Rice: Yeah, it was a really good day. [LAUGH] >> Peter Robinson: But you said you also watched some college, you spent the whole weekend watching footaball. >> Condoleezza Rice: I did watch the whole, I did- >> Peter Robinson: Why?
>> Condoleezza Rice: [INAUDIBLE] Because my dad was a football coach when I was born, and I was supposed to be his all American linebacker, and I'm an only child- Girl. And so my happiest moments in my entire life were watching football with my dad. It was music with my mom, who never picked up a baseball bat or a ball up bat of any kind, and my dad with him, it was sports. And Andrew knows this, my dad wanted me to know the x's and o's. So, I'm seven years old. Condoleezza, what is that?
Daddy, that's a trap block. I just love the sport, but I think what I love about it, is it's actually a very strategic game. It's a chess match, you're moving the pieces around. And it is a sport that really requires the ultimate in concentration, in physicality all in one package. I just can't help it, but I do love it. >> Peter Robinson: So we have here an athlete who's also a brainiac and a former secretary of state saying, this game enhances life. >> Condoleezza Rice: It does.
>> Peter Robinson: Is that right? >> Condoleezza Rice: It does. >> Peter Robinson: You're going to insist on that, as much pain- >> Condoleezza Rice: [CROSSTALK] It's not for everybody, or it's not for everybody. And I will say one thing about Andrew's leaving early. I think that was a good signal to people in football that you don't have to play the 15, 17-year career in order to be fulfilled.
And that if you've gotten what you need from the game and you've given as much as he did to the game and it's now time to quit, that's okay, too. >> Peter Robinson: Okay. >> Andrew Luck: I watched, thank you for saying that, doctor Ice, I appreciate it. I also watched games this past week, and I saw Brock Purdy self reported a concussion after a flight home from which, when I was playing, which was not that long ago, would not have happened.
And I know before I was playing that that wouldn't have happened. So I do think there has been a culture shift in how players are sharing their vulnerabilities about health and taking their health seriously. Which is seeing or at least reading the news and watching a star quarterback in this league self report a concussion after, After a game is a really positive step in a direction that made me think, gosh, we're on a path and I think it's in a positive direction.
>> Peter Robinson: So as I think about it, and I don't think about it as much as the two of you, or at the depth that the two of you think about it. So I'll just trot out a couple of ideas here. If we think about what college sports should look like and we've already agreed that we're groping toward protocols and rules. >> Peter Robinson: I think there are a couple of basic choices to make here, Condi and I have talked about this before, just watch her face when I say this.
One model is the Ivy League Model, look, don't say anything, hold on. >> Condoleezza Rice: I'm not, because I don't wanna criticize the Ivy League. >> Peter Robinson: So here's the point, I'll address this one to you then. >> Andrew Luck: Yeah. >> Peter Robinson: When the Ivy League is formed back in 1954, the league explicitly made a trade off between sports and academics. And it said, we are not going to sacrifice our academics so we're going to live with a more modest sports program.
>> Condoleezza Rice: Like those incredible hockey teams like Cornell. >> Andrew Luck: [LAUGH] >> Condoleezza Rice: [LAUGH] >> Peter Robinson: You see, she just can't stop. So perhaps the Ivy League doesn't quite live up to its own ideal. >> Condoleezza Rice: [LAUGH] >> Peter Robinson: But the ideal here is, relax, everybody, that we don't need a power five. There are 5000 colleges and universities in this country, and we don't have to have games dominated by the top 25.
Let's just go back to the really old fashioned ideal of genuine student athletes. Nobody gets paid, all the kids are there to take exams and graduate after four years, what do you think of that? >> Andrew Luck: I think there's a place for it and I think it exists, but I don't think that model, as a general thing is what we want. [LAUGH] >> Peter Robinson: Neither one of you is buying this at all. >> Condoleezza Rice: Let me embarrass Andrew Luck. >> Peter Robinson: All right, go ahead.
>> Condoleezza Rice: Were you valedictorian of your class in high school? >> Andrew Luck: Yeah, I was. >> Condoleezza Rice: All right, where is Andrew Luck gonna go? Valedictorian of his class at one of the best high schools. >> Andrew Luck: Co-valedictorian. >> Condoleezza Rice: All right, co-valedictorian- >> Peter Robinson: Those are humble, how did you notice that? >> Condoleezza Rice: Of one best schools in Texas and elite athlete.
So why can't there be a place where the valedictorian of the class and the elite athlete in one body gets to play? And that place has been Stanford. The thing that we've done very well here is we've believed in several excellences at Stanford. We've lived in excellence of research, we've believed in excellence of teaching, we've believed in excellence of clinical care. And we've believed in excellence of athletics with the highest academic standards.
And so there need to be places like that for the Andrew Lux, and- >> Peter Robinson: Are there enough to make up a whole conference? >> Condoleezza Rice: I think there are others. There are? There are others, but maybe not quite to the extent that we demand both. But there are other places that uphold academics and athletics as well. >> Andrew Luck: Absolutely. >> Peter Robinson: So, I'm sorry, this is the one tentious question I'm gonna permit myself.
>> Condoleezza Rice: [LAUGH] >> Peter Robinson: You tied yourself into the shape of a pretzel for the entire month of August to pull off a deal with the ACC? >> Condoleezza Rice: Right. >> Peter Robinson: Because the Pac-12 fell apart over television deals. We sit on a football field at a university with an endowment of almost $40 billion. One of the three biggest endowments in the country, Harvard and Yale- >> Condoleezza Rice: Princeton.
>> Peter Robinson: Princeton, one of the four, all right. Why does money matter to Stanford? >> Condoleezza Rice: Well, as you know, Peter, there are a lot of things that Stanford- >> Peter Robinson: Look at that, that's really vicious, as you know better than to ask that question, that's what you see. >> Condoleezza Rice: There's a lot of stuff that Stanford's covering with that $40 billion endowment and the payout from it, which is, by the way, not $40 billion.
But let's remember that what we're trying to do here at Stanford is to have the strongest, best athletic program within our academic context. And that means that we don't want football and college and athletics at Stanford to take away from what we are able to do on the research and teaching side. And so to the degree that football can get that contract and can help to fund the other sports, we wanna do that. The university, from time to time, does have to step up to help, and it does.
But I wanna make one point about the television contracts. You mentioned the possible deal with Apple, which was gonna be a streaming deal. >> Peter Robinson: Right. >> Condoleezza Rice: The one thing none of us know is how long we're gonna be in a world in which cable television contracts look like they do today. I don't know anybody under the age of 40, maybe even 50, who really has cable anymore, people stream.
And so eventually there will be some changes in the way that sports are compensated by the outside media world out there, and we'll have to be agile to deal with that as well. >> Andrew Luck: All right. >> Peter Robinson: So five years from now, what changed? I'm now gonna make you, I was gonna say NCAA commissioner, whatever the high Hedron at the NCAA is called, I don't even know the name of the title.
>> Condoleezza Rice: [LAUGH] >> Peter Robinson: But let's just use a simpler term, you're now dictator of college sports. What do you want it to look like in five years? >> Andrew Luck: What do I want it to look like, that's a great question. I think this conference realignment was a big existential threat to a lot of schools. And I think the next conversation is revenue sharing, especially of TV money to football athletes and all athletes to a certain degree.
So I'm curious how that conversation goes, cuz I think that's coming down the pipe, and yeah. >> Peter Robinson: The NFL equalizes to some extent revenues among teams, doesn't it? >> Condoleezza Rice: NFL is, yes, very much. >> Peter Robinson: As opposed to baseball, for example. >> Condoleezza Rice: Well, NFL has several things, a salary cap, which equalizes, shared revenue, which equalizes, and a draft, which equalizes.
>> Peter Robinson: Okay, and so would you like to see that operating within. First of all, would you like to see a regional realignment, or are you perfectly happy having Stanford be part of what is called still the Atlantic Coast Conference? >> Condoleezza Rice: I'm all right with where we are now, I'm kind of excited about where we are right now. But eventually some of this may sort out, one of the big questions is, what will football do?
Football is already separate in some ways from the rest of college sports. The college football playoffs are not actually an NCAA championship, they are a college football playoff championships, and so there may be some separations there. But if I can take the question that you didn't ask me, you asked Andrew. >> Andrew Luck: I didn't answer it either. [LAUGH] >> Condoleezza Rice: [LAUGH] >> Peter Robinson: You are tag teams the two of you.
>> Condoleezza Rice: I think there are some positive developments. I do think if we could get name, image, and likeness back into a box where it's not about paying you to transfer to this school or that school, but rather you get to advertise something. And for most kids, it is gonna be, if I put this on my Instagram, will you give me a bike? I think that's okay if we can get some rules around it.
But the piece that I really wanna emphasize again is we have to get back to, you went to do this because you wanted to get a college degree. That might change the dynamics of a transfer portal, for instance. Cuz if you're just an ordinary student, you're hopping from university, you're not gonna actually finish because you won't transfer credits, and so forth. So if we could get back to something that values the college degree for the athlete, that would be my greatest wish for college sports.
>> Peter Robinson: So if you're a really talented baseball player, you don't have to go to college, you can enter the farm team system. >> Condoleezza Rice: That's right. >> Peter Robinson: The NFL has benefited enormously, as far as I can tell, from using college athletics as a farm team. >> Condoleezza Rice: Well, there There are two points I make about that. One is, in baseball, if you do go to college, you stay for three years. But that was a deal that was made a long, long time ago.
In the NFL, the problem is you don't want an 18 year old boy to play TJ Watt. And so the three or so years in college matter for physical development as well. That's one reason that the NFL system works that way. >> Peter Robinson: She's an owner, you can rough her up if you want to. You're a player, you negotiated against the owners, feel free, you have one right here. Give her a piece of your mind right now.
>> Andrew Luck: I think I only ever saw Adrian Peterson and thought, my gosh, that guy could probably have played in the NFL at age 18, or maybe Earl Campbell could have played at age 18. >> Condoleezza Rice: But most could. >> Andrew Luck: Yeah, personal experience was very glad for the development opportunity in college.
>> Condoleezza Rice: But I would like to have, particularly, I'll tell you, the sport that I think is most problematic in this regard is basketball, because the so called one and done is not really one and done. It's seven months and then you're out once the tournament starts. And so, the NBA needs a real minor league. They're starting to develop it a little bit with the G League, as they call it, or now the Gatorade league.
But that would be a big help because the kid who doesn't really want to go and get the degree shouldn't have to, should be able to go and play sport. >> Andrew Luck: Absolutely, and I do wanna go back, I keep thinking of NIL. It's almost indefensible that we didn't, in my opinion, that we didn't let kids profit off of their name, image and likeness for a long, long time. And I think revenue sharing is a separate conversation that does need.
>> Peter Robinson: You are sharpening up your first answer. When I said, should you have been paid, you said, well, now you're saying, yeah, doc. >> Andrew Luck: Well, I think there's a couple different aspects to being paid, and I think NIL, I'm happy that Pandora's box is open, if you will. >> Peter Robinson: You are. >> Andrew Luck: Yeah, I think it's great. I think out of Pandora's box came a lot of things, right?
In the old myth, and I'm riffing this up, this is my dad's metaphor, so [LAUGH] I'm stealing it from him. But including hope was the last thing out of the box. Part of the problem of transfer and NIL at the same time is the inducement of kids, we'll pay you more if you go over here in recruiting. Which I think edit score was not supposed to be that way, but I do think it's a good case that kids can make money off their name, image of likeness. That just feels foundationally positive.
>> Condoleezza Rice: Really, back in the old days, a sad thing, for instance, kids who were suspended or thrown out of football cuz they sold a jersey, really? >> Peter Robinson: So both of you NIL transfer portal, my saying, wait a minute, what about the old ideals? And both of you are saying, if I'm summing you up correctly, there's work to be done. There are protocols that have to emerge. We have decisions to make, but fundamentally, we're in a good place.
>> Condoleezza Rice: No, no, no, that's a bad summary, Peter, with all due respect, okay. >> Peter Robinson: I'm trying to move toward a memorandum of understanding before we leave this negotiation, madam secretary. >> Condoleezza Rice: Something did need to change, and the piece that probably needed to change was that athletes needed to be able to benefit from their name, image, and likeness.
From the fact that they were becoming famous people, as any influencer might have been in our world today, who wasn't an athlete, a college student who was an influencer and was making money. I don't have a problem with that. I think the transfer portal has been a disaster for college sports, because it has made it so that if you're not a very, very, very top player, you're not wanted.
And you don't get that chance to develop from 18 to 20 to figure out, no, I'm actually really a good player, I worked really hard for it, and I made it onto the team. So while some good things came out of this, a lot of bad things came out of it, too. And I think our goal has to be as people who love these sports, who believe in the intercollegiate athletic model, who believe that places can exist where you have both academics and athletics.
Is to figure out a way, maybe not to put the genie back in the bottle, but that there are a few places like here, that try to do it the right way. >> Peter Robinson: Does she sound a little bit like an owner to you? >> Andrew Luck: [LAUGH] >> Peter Robinson: Letting these pesky players go where they wanna play is a problem, would you like to? >> Andrew Luck: You're good at stirring the pot, Peter [LAUGH]. >> Peter Robinson: Is there any reply you care to make tonight?
>> Andrew Luck: I think athlete choice, health and safety. I think we agree on a lot of things. >> Peter Robinson: Now you're playing the diplomat. All right, >> Andrew Luck: I really think we do. And I think so few kids go professional and then so few kids go professional and make substantial enough money to live life with the privilege to do whatever one sort of pleases.
That I deeply believe in the value of education and what colleges and universities, a degree in the network and what that can give a cadre of young people growing up. And I think college sports are just like the regional rivalries and the traditions and the connective tissue that it breeds is just so important. That I'd hate to see a stray too far away from what is just sort of quirky and very American about college athletics.
Like, it's hard to explain to someone from another country, you gotta bring them along. And they say, okay, and then next thing, we have to go down to Tuscaloosa, cuz they do this. And then, we're gonna go up to Pullman because they do this. >> Condoleezza Rice: Well, I will tell you one funny story about that, maybe, Peter, you can. So I brought Jack Straw, who at the time was the foreign secretary of Great Britain. He's a huge fan, I see would say football fan.
So I brought him to an Alabama, Tennessee game. I said, I want you to experience this. So we went and we were asked to toss the coin at the beginning. And so we walk out of the tunnel, and people are going absolutely wild, 92,000. And Jack, who's a politician, is going like this. I said, Jack, they would cheer a squirrel if it came out of the tunnel at this point, let's just go toss the coin and get it over. But to your point, it's really an american thing.
>> Peter Robinson: Last questions here, I'm going to ask for three pieces of advice. One, I'd like to ask you both for your advice, and then one for Condi and one for Andrew. And here's the first advice to a college football fan like me. That's advice to somebody who loved the game as it used to be played, who thought there was something, maybe this is romantic.
But thought there was something pure about a real amateur, a true student athlete, who played because of the love of the game, and who really was part of the institution for which he or she played. What's your advice to that fan? Get over it? What's your advice to the fan? To the dinosaur fan like me? >> Andrew Luck: Not so strong as get over it. But I'm bullish on where things are going.
I think some things aren't great right now, but I think it's positive, and I generally think steps that empower student athletes are good things. And I think there's really good football being played. [LAUGH] Be a fan of good football, that's a good deal. >> Peter Robinson: And your advice? >> Condoleezza Rice: I would say write to your college alumni association [LAUGH] and ask them to keep thinking about the academic piece of it that that student athlete really needs to get a degree.
And, by the way, I still think these kids love the game. You watch them on Saturday, they still love the game. >> Peter Robinson: Condi, this one's for you. We've been talking again and again and again about this few dozen schools, maybe 130, let's say maybe 200 at the very top of the college sports structure. But again, there are almost 5000 colleges and universities in this country. So let's imagine a small college or university somewhere in the middle of the country.
But it doesn't have to be the middle of the country, somewhere that really wants to get into the big game, that wants to raise the money and build the facilities and attract the coaches and recruit the athletes. And it knows it's a decade long project, but it really wants to break in to that top tier. You're a former provost, you're now an owner of a football, what advice would you give to that president and provost of that small college that wants to do this? Don't do it?
>> Condoleezza Rice: No, I would say, be sure you know what you're getting into. And by the way, by the time you get there, the rules of the game may have changed dramatically. So, if you must, just make sure that you're not doing it at the expense of your academic excellence. >> Peter Robinson: Okay, last question for Andrew, you're coaching across the El Camino at Palo Alto High School. You've got a kid who comes up to you after a practice, you're coaching freshman, isn't that right?
Okay. >> Andrew Luck: Yep. >> Peter Robinson: Who says, Coach Luck, I want to be like you. I want to do what you did, so tell me exactly what it's going to take to get into a big time college football program, I'll do it. I don't care how much sacrifice it involves, I'll do it, what do you say to that kid? >> Andrew Luck: I'd say, dream bigger [LAUGH] do it better than me is the first thing I'd say.
And then we'd have a serious discussion about how the stars have to align for certain things to happen, that there's more than one road to success or there can be more than one dream. But if the talent was there to play big time football, I would hope that I could support this kid along their journey. And then I saw a really cute video on the Internet that a friend sent to me of a college football player talking to a kid after game.
And the kid came up and asked for an autograph and said, I want to be like you, right? And this was an a big kid, and this must have been a fourth grader boy. And the first thing this 20-year-old college football player said, well, how are your grades? And the kids said, well, they're not very good. He's like, well, you know, I got into here because I also have to do well at school, I get to play because I did well at school. I got a scholarship to go to the school, and I play for the school.
And a year later, the kid gets all A's on his report card or something, and the mom shared a video about it. I think that's part of what's really special, so few of us go pro, but playing in college, I think, opens up a number of doors, and so I'd say focus on your grades. That is as important as an arena, as the football field, and I think you learn, the more curious you are, the better you learn how to learn, the better you are in school.
That helps you being a better football player and vice versa, the more you learn about how to be on a team and accountable to each other. And strategy, they reinforce each other, I think, in positive ways when done right. >> Peter Robinson: Condoleezza Rice, former Secretary of State, director of the Hoover Institution and owner of the Denver Broncos.
Andrew Luck, former star on this football field, former quarterback for the Colts, and now freshman football coach- >> Andrew Luck: [LAUGH] >> Peter Robinson: At Palo Alto High School, thank you both. >> Condoleezza Rice: Thank you. >> Andrew Luck: Pleasure, thank you. >> Peter Robinson: For the Hoover Institution, I'm Peter Robinson. [MUSIC]