Speaker0: Yes, hello, it's Jason Louv. Welcome back to the Ultra Culture Podcast. Speaker0: Let's talk about Magic.me, my school for magic, meditation, and mysticism. Speaker0: It is now 10 years since I've begun this school, and it has been a resounding Speaker0: success. It is a platform that I built where you can learn magic and meditation Speaker0: anywhere on your own timeline.
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Speaker0: Magic, mysticism, runes, those are incredible, incredible tools if they are Speaker0: used for the right reason. Speaker0: And that reason, and the reason that they are given at magic.me is for you to Speaker0: discover your true will, your true self, your true reason for existing.
Speaker0: And when you get down to that the doors of Speaker0: the world of magic open almost effortlessly and Speaker0: then you understand why there are all these tools Speaker0: it gets so confusing you go into the occult bookstore online and Speaker0: there's all this stuff all these traditions from all Speaker0: over the world all these tools and it's it's too much you need someone to guide Speaker0: you through that thicket and get you to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow
Speaker0: which is discovering your true self it's an incredible school with a group of Speaker0: incredible students who are always positive and helping each other out. Speaker0: There's a real sense of community around it. People have made lifelong friendships. Speaker0: People have completely turned their financial destiny around. Speaker0: It's pretty amazing and very humbling for me to see students' success. Speaker0: So it's all there waiting for you, magic.me, M-A-G-I-C-K dot M-E.
Speaker0: Join the community and I will see you in class. Speaker0: All right, let's get into it. Music Speaker0: Welcome to the show. Thank you very much for being on. Please tell the audience Speaker0: a bit about yourself and your current project. Speaker1: Yeah, well, thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. Speaker1: My name is Micah Stover, and I am a psychedelic therapist. Speaker1: I work with people healing from complex trauma, attachment wounds of all kinds.
Speaker1: I live here in Puerto Vallarta with my family, and I have a new book that's Speaker1: coming out less than a month from now called Healing Psychedelics. Speaker1: And a lot of what inspired me to write the book, apart from my own story personally, Speaker1: but also professionally and working with clients, is really having this unique Speaker1: experience of working kind of in a clinically trained background, Speaker1: but now living in a much more indigenous setting.
Speaker1: And so when I think about the future of mental health and where psychedelics positions into that, Speaker1: I'm very interested in doing everything I can to help the dialogue be sort of Speaker1: centered around where does science and spirit meet in this conversation because Speaker1: I think that there's a lot of excitement about the future of mental health and psychedelics, Speaker1: but I also worry a fair amount about what happens when we try to commodify something
Speaker1: that's so sacred and appropriation. Speaker1: And also, I think when the mystical is not sort of supported with science, Speaker1: we can have blind spots that we're not aware of.
Speaker1: So I am really interested in you know bringing bringing consciousness to this Speaker1: place where the two can actually complement one another as opposed to kind of Speaker1: like get stuck in in ideologies if you will so Speaker0: Where is that place where science and spirituality meet and that you've really Speaker0: like where is that place that you've really found for yourself through your work.
Speaker1: Yeah, well, one of the ways I like to think about it, and I talk about it with Speaker1: clients, is that often, depending on who's having the conversation, Speaker1: That it might sound very different, but like the core essence content is the same. Speaker1: So for example, let me just make it concrete so it's less esoteric.
Speaker1: When clinical practitioners talk about what is going on in the psychedelic space, Speaker1: like why is it that we're seeing people who've been working on something for Speaker1: 10 to 20 years to no avail, Speaker1: Suddenly they have this altered state of consciousness experience and it feels different? Speaker1: What makes that possible? So from a scientific vantage point, Speaker1: we would say, well, there's an increase in neurogenetic activity.
Speaker1: So if we look at brain scans, we can see that there is actually a neurological Speaker1: shift that happens and that shift that's happening creates increased elasticity Speaker1: or plasticity in the brain. Speaker1: And so that's a really kind of amazing thing because otherwise, Speaker1: as we age, we just naturally decrease our neuroelasticity, plasticity. Speaker1: So I think it's really helpful to understand the science of that.
Speaker1: Now, if we go over to a more indigenous world, they're not necessarily going Speaker1: to be needing to explain all of that. Speaker1: They're more just going to be interested in what is happening, Speaker1: what are the symbols and the metaphors that you're seeing in that neurogenetic Speaker1: activity, and how do those symbols and metaphors impact your life. Speaker1: Meanwhile, ultimately, if we strip it all down, it's the same thing. Speaker1: Do you understand what I mean?
Speaker0: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You used the phrase neurogenetic, which I thought was interesting. Speaker0: Does that suggest that you think that in the psychedelic experience, Speaker0: we're somehow interacting with our genetics?
Speaker1: Absolutely. I mean, if you're familiar with the concept of epigenetics, Speaker1: You know, one of the best ways I've heard epigenetics described by an amazing Speaker1: thinker named Rachel Yehuda, who really, I think, helped to put this concept Speaker1: of epigenetics on the map.
Speaker1: She described something that I think is quite complicated to explain to people Speaker1: in really simple terms, which is to say that genetics is the hardware of a person Speaker1: and epigenetics is the software. Speaker1: What was fascinating and revealed through her research is that if we work enough Speaker1: on the software, the hardware itself starts to reflect those changes.
Speaker1: So I think as we see this neurogenetic activity, that is in fact where the epigenetic Speaker1: modifications are starting to come through. Speaker1: What do I mean in more simple terms? Like, let's say you've got a lineage of trauma. Speaker1: Maybe it started like she studied survivors of the Holocaust and descendants of the Holocaust.
Speaker1: Maybe it started way back when. And over time, this unresolved trauma started Speaker1: to present itself in addiction, suicidality, et cetera, et cetera. Speaker1: Now you have someone, say in this generation, and they're endeavoring to do Speaker1: work of this kind, they start to, it's almost like plucking a weed at the root.
Speaker1: It's like, how can we take that increased neurological activity and kind of Speaker1: extract these limiting beliefs that would otherwise be passed down a lot like genetic material? Speaker0: That's a lot. Wow. So maybe we should do just like the quick elevator pitch Speaker0: on what epigenetics is just for people who might not be familiar with that concept.
Speaker0: I feel like you've kind of already given the broad outlines, Speaker0: but maybe you just give a quick, succinct definition. Speaker1: Sure. Speaker1: So epigenetics, if we think of genetics like the sort of hard, Speaker1: concrete aspects of a person, so like what is your skin color, your eye color, Speaker1: your physiological predisposition, so to speak, epigenetics is kind of like Speaker1: the film or the dust that lays on top of all of that material.
Speaker1: So It could be any sorts of predispositions that are of a more non-concrete Speaker1: expression, like things like depression, alcoholism, Speaker1: substance abuse. Speaker1: These are things that we also tend to see move through generations. Speaker1: There's not necessarily a gene specifically linked to them, Speaker0: But.
Speaker1: We might say that the epigenetics of that thing is is in the weave of the lineage is that helpful Speaker0: Yes and yeah well i think Speaker0: the idea just the idea that you through your Speaker0: own actions may be expressing essentially Speaker0: ancestral trauma at the genetic level and more Speaker0: excitingly that through your own actions you can reprogram that Speaker0: and i love the metaphor of hardware and software i feel like that's a
Speaker0: very succinct metaphor for modern people i have Speaker0: often suspected and i don't Speaker0: want to jump to conclusions about this i'm really curious what Speaker0: you have to say about it i've often suspected in Speaker0: the psychedelic experience that particularly when you get really deep in Speaker0: and you're seeing light shows and interacting with Speaker0: gods and spirits and things like that that you're you're really potentially
Speaker0: like it's like a microscope into your own dna that Speaker0: you might maybe looking at your own genetics how do Speaker0: you feel about that or cellular like you're going within what seems to be going Speaker0: into like to put it more succinctly it seems to be you're going into some spiritual Speaker0: space but really you may just be you know representing your own deeper kind Speaker0: of molecular structure to yourself or genetic structure i.
Speaker1: Love that idea i mean definitely is resonant with me which is this idea that Speaker1: that whatever external God we believe in, if we do, Speaker1: is also that same God source energy is inside us. Speaker1: For me, you know, the spiritual expression is sort of manifested in thinking Speaker1: about the earth, the earth as mother, which is a very indigenous, Speaker1: informed way to think of things.
Speaker1: And so when I look at nature and think of that as like the higher force, I am to nature. Speaker1: So the more I heal and move away from the modern sort of colonialist structures Speaker1: that have formed my sense of egoic self, Speaker1: the more I understand myself through a naturalistic lens, like I am nature, nature is me. Speaker1: We have a reciprocity in which we need to harmoniously take care of one another.
Speaker0: So I'm curious what that process is like for you of beginning to take on more of that worldview. Speaker0: And if there were significant challenges along that along the way with your Speaker0: personality, like, because often when people do things like that, Speaker0: they come across their personality structure will put up some severe challenges. Speaker0: So I'm curious what that what that process was like for you.
Speaker1: I mean, I think it's interesting because I came to psychedelics personally because I had a lot of trauma. Speaker1: And specifically, what brought me to psychedelics in this chapter of my life Speaker1: is I had a very, very complicated first pregnancy. I lost a child. Speaker1: The other baby made it, but we both just barely made it through.
Speaker1: And after we came out of that experience, I was experiencing something that Speaker1: in a clinical psychological setting, they would describe as postpartum psychosis. Speaker1: Like I was hearing ghosts. Speaker1: I was, you know, not thinking straight, we might say. Speaker1: Now, interestingly, if I, you know, engage my more indigenous orient, Speaker1: you know, my, my indigenous council, they would say, I'm not sure about this, Speaker1: this technical term of psychosis.
Speaker1: I think maybe you were talking to your ancestors and you were hearing sort of Speaker1: the voices of your lineage. Speaker1: Both to me feel true, which again goes back to your first question. Speaker1: Can you explain where do these place science and spirit meet? Speaker1: It's another example of that.
Speaker1: So anyways, to get to the question that you just asked, Speaker1: I think what brought me to all of this was trying to understand how to move Speaker1: beyond this lineage, these lineage stories of trauma. Speaker1: So I was already struggling in some ways. That's what brought me here. Speaker1: Now, some people come to psychedelics, not because they're struggling, Speaker1: but just to expand consciousness.
Speaker1: So I want to acknowledge that that's different. But you're right, Speaker1: because, you know, I think there's also this sort of current phenomenon on in Speaker1: which people think they're going to have an ephemeral experience through psychedelics Speaker1: and we're going to feel everything's going to be better.
Speaker1: And I think that's dangerous and misleading because I didn't actually, Speaker1: while I would say now, almost nine years later, Speaker1: my life is much better than it ever would have been without these experiences.
Speaker1: The deconstruction of my egoic self Speaker1: was was not like a warm fuzzy ephemeral Speaker1: experience the the day-to-day unraveling of Speaker1: that was hard okay like specifically Speaker1: i okay so this was maybe Speaker1: it's hard to remember now because it's been Speaker1: a long journey to to get to this point but i Speaker1: think in my i don't know third or fourth Speaker1: ceremony that i had and at that time my family
Speaker1: lived in portland oregon i was working with a clinical therapist Speaker1: in an underground setting because it was all mostly underground Speaker1: at that time and so when the Speaker1: this was with psilocybin and when the psilocybin started to work inside me the Speaker1: message that i heard was your self-concept needs to deconstruct okay over and Speaker1: over again the visual i had was that i was underground in a mud tunnel.
Speaker1: And like, I couldn't see barely to any side up or down. I was just in this tunnel and that was all I got. Speaker1: Your self-concept needs to deconstruct. Speaker1: It felt like that went on for years. Speaker1: Realistically, it was probably only like, I don't know, five to six hours, Speaker1: but I didn't get anything else. Speaker1: There was no, I don't know, transcendent, warm, fuzzy sentiment. Speaker1: It was just this over and over again.
Speaker1: Interestingly enough, six weeks after that, my family moved to Mexico. Speaker1: We sold all of our things before this move. We did not know anyone here. Speaker1: And And I wasn't certainly at that time fluent in Spanish. Speaker1: So upon arrival in this place, I experienced my self-concept as I knew it deconstructing Speaker1: because it had no bearing, no relevance in this new context that I found myself in.
Speaker0: That's interesting. I mean, that kind of suggests that, like, Speaker0: the mushrooms were really trying to force that message. Speaker0: You know, I really wanted to make sure you got that one. That's interesting.
Speaker1: Yeah. But I think part of it is because in my work as a therapist, Speaker1: I would say that the collective kind Speaker1: of human wounding of hyper-individuation and the loss of collectivism and community Speaker1: is that we become so hyper-identified through these egoic structures of what Speaker1: is my job and what is my skill, so to speak. Speaker1: And I think arguably as uncomfortable as it is, deconstructing all of that is Speaker1: useful, even if painful.
Speaker0: I think that points to a really fundamental tension in our society outside of Speaker0: just the conversation of psychedelics. Speaker0: Although, of course, psychedelics, I think, are a really good way of confronting Speaker0: that or at least becoming aware of it, which is, you know, we do live in a hyper, Speaker0: hyper individuated society.
Speaker0: And as a consequence, and I think this is particularly true for white people, Speaker0: we often live an atomized existence where we're separated from extended family. Speaker0: And I think that makes people very unhappy. Speaker0: And even to the point where, you know, I think it's very typical for people Speaker0: to live in different places than their extended family to put their, Speaker0: you know, put their aging loved ones in nursing homes and have other people look after them.
Speaker0: And you can contrast that with things, particularly living, you know, Speaker0: I grew up in Southern California, right on the border. Speaker0: So when you contrast that with Mexican culture. Speaker0: South American culture, and you see extended families, you see people having Speaker0: big extended family experiences, and it makes people very happy.
Speaker0: And that's true of a lot of cultures. it's true of filipino culture Speaker0: it's true of a lot of cultures worldwide but i Speaker0: think it's tricky because you kind of it's i think it's a bit of Speaker0: a balancing act because if you're too collective then Speaker0: you lose yourself and you have no innovation whereas if you go and then you Speaker0: you now you can't individuate and you can't articulate yourself outside of that
Speaker0: structure perhaps we're too hyper individuated and you know you get kind of Speaker0: it's it's easy to fall into kind of solipsism And despair. Speaker0: And that despair, I think, is as in I don't think that despair is, Speaker0: you know, people we know have been dying deaths of despair all over America. Speaker0: I think that that despair is really as simple as just not being around extended
Speaker0: family or groups of people and being too, too atomized. So. Speaker1: Yeah, no, I think you're raising a really good point. Speaker0: These are perhaps, these are perhaps touchy and uncomfortable points, Speaker0: but I think one of the reasons they're touchy is because they're so core to life right now. Speaker1: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, okay.
Speaker1: So, so two things. One is that in my book and in general, in my life, Speaker1: I talk a lot about this thing I refer to as the village of care. Speaker1: We've all heard that old adage, it takes a village to raise a child. Speaker1: And I really think that that's still salient and true, but we detached from the village. Speaker1: And so I think part of the healing is to reconstruct some sort of sense of village.
Speaker1: Also, it's complicated in a modern world where we are more physically removed from each other. Speaker1: So a lot of times people, or let's say people have trauma, which many of my clients do. Speaker1: It's not actually healthy for me to still be in like a village with these people who are unwell. Speaker0: Right, right. So what do I do about that? That's a great point.
Speaker0: Yeah, I mean, and like, I'm sure, you know, that doesn't, that's becomes painfully Speaker0: clear with addiction, right? Speaker0: Where the thing that somebody is holding somebody in an addiction is usually Speaker0: not the drug, it's the friend group that they're in, or the group that they're in a people or the, Speaker0: you know, sometimes a family, you know, where there's, you know, Speaker0: multi generational addiction, you know, it's like, they can't get out of it,
Speaker0: because they're surrounded by it. They're surrounded by all those reinforcing factors. Speaker0: So that's a great point. Yeah. Speaker1: Yeah, so it's complicated. And I would argue that we still, even if it's not Speaker1: biologically designed, Speaker1: we still would be benefited to endeavor to find a village, to create a village. Speaker1: And I think that that can be consciously chosen as much as biologically predetermined. determined.
Speaker1: But also the other thing that I wanted to mention that you touched on, Speaker1: I mean, I might use language like, how do we and where do we hold our agency Speaker1: and or our sovereignty within the context of collectivism?
Speaker1: Because I think that that is something Speaker1: that can sort of get diluted in a village that's really tight is, Speaker1: okay, so if I am loyal to the village, how do I also honor myself, Speaker1: especially if I'm not in, I don't Speaker1: feel in alignment with something that's happening within the village. Speaker1: So these are complex things. And I guess I just wanted to chime in that I agree with you.
Speaker1: I think it's important not to become overly ideological about any one perspective, Speaker1: but to consider where do we find balance in all of this. And I guess part of it is, Speaker0: From.
Speaker1: My understanding my perspective that the current state at least in like the Speaker1: american culture is that the hyper individuating is hurting us more than it is helping Speaker0: Have you can you give like have you seen clear examples of that maybe to demonstrate Speaker0: the extent to which that you know just to give a maybe a story to that to demonstrate Speaker0: what occurs when somebody is too hyper-individuated or as hard by it?
Speaker1: I mean, it's almost hard. Yeah, it's almost hard to pick a singular story. Speaker1: When I think about my practice as a trauma therapist, every single person in Speaker1: that practice receiving care, one of the wounds they're feeling is hyper-individuation. Speaker1: Where all of that started from, maybe part of it started from their parents Speaker1: were not well, Their parents weren't raised in a village. Speaker1: And so the message was, you fend for yourself.
Speaker1: You rely on yourself. Nobody else has got you here. Speaker1: Right? So this is why I think often it's a trauma response. Interesting. Speaker0: So what is the trauma response to that? Because I, you know, Speaker0: that's, I think, a message that, well, I am a big fan of self-reliance. Speaker0: And I frankly think people should maybe get that message more. Speaker0: But at the same time, I totally follow what you're saying.
Speaker0: I mean, that kind of like, that body seizing up fear of like, Speaker0: oh, you know, like, I need to, I need to. Speaker0: You know, my, me eating is on me. And it's not just that I think, Speaker0: and I'm just speaking out loud. Speaker0: It's the sense that, you know, there's not enough and there's not enough to, Speaker0: there's not enough to support you. Speaker0: So how do people respond to that?
Speaker0: Do you think, do you find patterns and how people, does that, Speaker0: what is it, how does that change people's personality when they get that message? Speaker1: When they feel that they're like, it's all on them. Yeah. Speaker1: Well, I think in large part, I mean, people respond to it in myriad different ways. Speaker1: Like from a trauma perspective, people, they start to develop, Speaker1: especially if this happens in early childhood, what I would call disordered attachment.
Speaker1: So they become hyper anxious, hyper vigilant, or they become disassociated, Speaker1: far away, hard to reach, or some combination of the two. Speaker1: And all of these expressions then create their own unique set of challenges and complexities.
Speaker1: Opportunities like if where people who have severe disassociation Speaker1: tend to have legitimate like legitimately Speaker1: more accidents in life because like car accidents Speaker1: just to make it really concrete as an example because Speaker1: they're they're in their body they're not in their body yeah if that makes sense Speaker1: absolutely um people people who are hyper vigilant this was one of the ways
Speaker1: i expressed it in my own trauma response was to become like obsessive about Speaker1: seemingly innocuous things. Speaker1: How could I better use my energy like more constructively? Speaker1: So those are just a couple examples. Speaker1: Yeah, in response to your question, but I, you know, I think to be clear, Speaker1: there's like having a kind of communal mindset doesn't, I don't think, Speaker1: needs to negate that we're self-reliant within that community.
Speaker1: I think more of it is at least how I see it expressed as a therapist who works Speaker1: with people who have trauma is it's like people become almost averse to vulnerability. Speaker1: They become really compromised in their capacity to feel empathy, even for themselves. Speaker1: And these sorts of core things like empathy and vulnerability are so needed Speaker1: to have meaningful connection in our lives.
Speaker1: So that's a big point that I think is is a concern born out of all of this. Speaker0: So we're talking like to the point where it disrupts people's ability to form relationships. Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Speaker0: What would you say the biggest repeating traumas you see in working with so many people are? Speaker0: I mean, you mentioned that hyper individuation is a common trauma.
Speaker0: That's definitely something interesting to think about. Are there other ones Speaker0: that have become very apparent to you that are like society-wide traumas? Speaker1: Yeah. So let's see where to begin. Speaker1: I mean, I think one thing that I see a lot is, you know, and I should, Speaker1: I should give some like parameters to be helpful.
Speaker1: You know, most of my clients tend to be between their, you know, Speaker1: mid to late 30s, all the way up to, you know, in their 60s. Speaker1: Right. And especially when I'm thinking about, yeah, really anywhere in that Speaker1: bracket, which is a pretty notable bracket, Speaker1: a lot of these folks were raised by generations of parents who I'm not sure Speaker1: consciously chose the role of parents. Speaker1: But more, they just had kids because it's what you do.
Speaker0: Okay. Speaker1: And especially with mothers, I see many clients who they're like, Speaker1: I would describe their core wound as that. Speaker1: I don't think their mom wanted to be a mom. Speaker1: Yeah. Right. And she wanted to have a career. She wanted to have a life. Speaker1: And instead she got sort of pressured, cajoled into motherhood and then was Speaker1: emotionally really compromised in her capacity to bond and connect with her child.
Speaker1: And so therefore, this kid grows up feeling unlovable, unmothered, right? Speaker1: And so that's one kind of, and I could go like, there's so many different offshoots Speaker1: of how that expresses itself, whether you're a woman or whether you're a man. Speaker0: Well, let's just talk about that one, because I think that one is so huge. Speaker0: And there's so many, there's so much we can talk about with just focusing in on that one. you know.
Speaker0: You know, the conversation, the political conversation around motherhood has Speaker0: changed so much in, in the last couple of decades. And I am, Speaker0: I think, obviously, I hope not a woman. Speaker0: And, but I have noticed this conversation change and I've lived in lots of places Speaker0: in the country where I think women have had a lot of pressure to do career and Speaker0: motherhood and be superhuman. And it's like too much.
Speaker0: And in the last 10 years, I think particularly from the right, Speaker0: right side of the aisle, there's been all this counter pressure that women should Speaker0: just be mothers, they shouldn't, you know, the pressure against women adopting careers. Speaker0: And that obviously, we don't need to get into politics. But I think that that's Speaker0: a very loaded conversation in our culture right now.
Speaker0: And you mentioned, I bring this up, particularly because you mentioned this Speaker0: thing about a lot of people had kids just because it's what you're doing.
Speaker0: You do so that's a societal expectation Speaker0: filtering down and right now i'm not sure it's Speaker0: clear what the societal expectations are it may differ based Speaker0: on where you live in the country and it's a political it's a fraught political Speaker0: minefield so i'm not really asking a question there as much as i am of kind Speaker0: of surfacing some of these issues that are around this where it's this isn't
Speaker0: happening in a vacuum there's this broader societal battle going on however we want to define that. Speaker1: Yeah. And I mean, yes, 100%. I agree with everything you said. Speaker1: I mean, I think that I see this, oh, deeply with the, especially the women in Speaker1: my practice who sort of endeavored to be both, Speaker1: be mother to their kids, but also have a career because that the first rendering Speaker1: of the feminist movement suggested that was the goal.
Speaker1: And I think only now are we beginning to understand that that was maybe like, Speaker1: dare I say, slightly misguided. Speaker1: I'm not sure we can be, I mean, far be it for me to tell anyone else what they Speaker1: can do or what they should or shouldn't aspire to do. Speaker1: However, I think what many people experience was the feeling of being, Speaker1: now I have permission to do both, but so much is asked of me.
Speaker1: I can't do anything the way I authentically want to do. Speaker0: Well, it's an unfair amount of work to ask any human being to do, Speaker0: right? It's just too much. It's so much. Speaker0: It's more than one person can really fully. And if somebody can do both, wonderful. Speaker0: You know, it's wonderful. But I think it's certainly, I'm sure for people who Speaker0: can do both, it's still the source of a lot of stress and exhaustion.
Speaker0: You know, it's like, it sounds pretty. Speaker1: Totally. I mean, I can say as a mother who also has a job, Speaker1: that means a lot to me, And I believe in the balancing acts of that is some Speaker1: days feels Herculean and requires that I, Speaker1: for me to be able to do it in any semblance of sustainability requires I have Speaker1: a village of care to take care of me. Speaker1: Because when I'm tired and I'm weary and it's enough, then I can turn to someone
Speaker1: like an elder in my village and say, can you help? Right. Speaker1: And I really worry about that for people in different cultures and contexts Speaker1: where they're, who is the person that they turn to and say, I need, I need relief. Speaker0: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's gotta be tough. Speaker0: That's gotta be tough. Yeah. It's just, it's, it's too much. Speaker0: It's, it's just so much work to even think about.
Speaker0: So you, you, I mean, I, okay. So you mentioned kind of career and workplace, Speaker0: you know, I grew up in the designing women era where, you know, Speaker0: like my mom had shoulder pads and like went to, Speaker0: work and then it was also, it was also a mom, but you mentioned maybe it's, Speaker0: it's a little imbalanced or there's been imbalance in the past. Speaker0: What do you think a more ideal way to look at this would be?
Speaker1: I think it begins with actually getting clear on what it is that a person truly wants. Speaker1: I think it begins with consciousness and how to find consciousness, I think, Speaker1: requires all of us to do some level of work because the kind of cultural norms are so strong. wrong.
Speaker1: Like, I don't know if you're familiar with a book that came out, Speaker1: I guess now it's been a couple of years ago, but this is a big deal in the world Speaker1: of psychology, I think, and also human health is called the myth of normal written by Gabor Mate. Speaker1: And I think the subtitle is something like, how do we heal in a toxic culture?
Speaker1: So this is kind of what I would allude to in a myth of I'm Speaker0: Not a fan of that guy at all, being that he's a paid Russian asset, Speaker0: but I haven't read it, but I'm aware of it. I'm aware of it. Speaker1: Well, even if we leave aside his sort of, not that that's easy to do, Speaker1: I just, let's say that the core kind of idea, Speaker1: try to keep his identity apart from this idea that we live in a world,
Speaker1: maybe let's change the reference altogether. Did you see the film Barbie? Speaker0: I loved Barbie, unapologetically. Okay. I think that's a classic. Speaker0: That's a classic film that should certainly be around for a while. Speaker0: I thought it was great. I thought it was great.
Speaker1: It's so good. And so I would say that when Barbie leaves Barbie land and she Speaker1: comes into the world, what she experiences is this kind of myth of normal where everybody is like, Speaker1: oh, got their job, Speaker1: like got their cars, got their stuff. Speaker1: And you see like the younger girl, the teenage girl in the movie that Barbie Speaker1: goes to find in the school and Barbie thinks she's going to be her hero.
Speaker1: And she's like, you ruined everything to Barbie. And Barbie's like in despair about it. Speaker1: I mean, this is all of what I'm alluding to is, I think, fraught about the culture now.
Speaker1: Both, and I love that Barbie focuses on the female, what it costs the female, Speaker1: but also what it costs the men Speaker0: Yeah yeah no spoiler but i i love Speaker0: my favorite part in that movie is i'm gonna get the let me Speaker0: get the line wrong so spoiler alert but at the end where ken is like i thought Speaker0: patriarchy just meant you got horses or something like you could ride around
Speaker0: on horses yeah i mean i i love that movie and and i think it was i'm sorry to Speaker0: interrupt it so good yeah and i think it was, Speaker0: you know, that movie is a, that movie is about, it's a conversation about where
Speaker0: gender relations are in our society. And I thought, Speaker0: I'm curious how you took the end, because it seemed to me, spoiler alert again, Speaker0: it seemed to me that, you know, after all of that, the ending of the movie was Speaker0: kind of an admission that we don't know what the solution is. Speaker0: We're just going to kind of separate the sexes here. Speaker0: That's how I took it. Maybe you took it in a different way.
Speaker0: But it seemed to me like it was almost like we can't really come to a resolution Speaker0: on this one. We're going to have to agree to disagree. Speaker1: Well, I love that this is where the conversation is going because it's just so interesting. Speaker1: The ending to me, and I'm just like so interested in how our respective genders Speaker1: might inform how we interpret the ending. Speaker0: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is interesting.
Speaker1: To me, the ending was like, hell yes. Speaker1: Barbie is reclaiming her body. Because from a female perspective, Speaker1: living in this lifetime in a female body, one of the things I lost prior to Speaker1: a lot of consciousness work to heal was my body. Speaker1: My body had become patriarchalized. Speaker0: I understand.
Speaker1: To me, when Barbie emancipates herself from Barbie land and she chooses to go Speaker1: to the real world and she goes first, oh, this is such a spoiler alert, but can we just say it? Speaker1: She goes to a gynecologist's office. To me, it's like she's saying, Speaker1: I want a body. I don't want to be a Barbie. Speaker0: Oh, that part was great. Yeah, I love that. I mean, I guess I'm trying to remember
Speaker0: the details of the end. It seemed, however, that it was almost like, Speaker0: Yet, like women and men were kind of going to self-actualize on their own paths in their own way. Speaker0: You know, each side was getting self-actualized, but they weren't coming together. Speaker0: There wasn't a notion of partnership or any type of coming together given at the end.
Speaker0: Maybe that's outside of the scope of the movie, but I also thought that it was Speaker0: a statement that, you know, really we're going to hyper-individuate further. Speaker0: And men and women are going to kind of actualize on their own. Speaker1: I don't know. God, I could talk about this for hours. I have some thoughts about it. Speaker1: Like one is that there's this really lovely scene in the movie where I don't know if it's lovely.
Speaker1: It's certainly thought provoking where Ken is like wanting to stay over. Speaker1: And Barbie's like, no. Speaker1: And she's like, what do you even want to do if you stay? Speaker1: And he's like, I don't know. And there's so much there about, Speaker1: I mean, as much as we might want to say that the patriarchy has patriarchalized woman, so to the man. Speaker1: So he's like coveting Barbie to the extent that he's losing whatever he might Speaker1: want to discover about himself.
Speaker1: So I would argue that true connection is made possible by each of them actualizing individually. Speaker0: Okay. Yeah, I agree with that. Speaker1: But, well, just to say, I guess, I think you're on to something that's a real Speaker1: risk is that both of them get lost in individuating further and they don't come back together. Speaker0: Yeah. And that's valid. A hundred percent. And it kind of seemed like the movie was,
Speaker0: Not necessarily. It seemed like the movie was saying, well, this is where we're at for now. Speaker0: But what didn't occur at the end was some type of modeling of what a healthy Speaker0: partnership would look like. Speaker1: Yeah. Speaker0: And maybe that's just outside of the scope of the movie. Speaker1: Well, to be determined, can there be a healthy relationship when one or both are not embodied?
Speaker0: Yeah. Well, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I felt that the movie, Speaker0: it's not that the movie didn't have an answer. Speaker0: It was the movie was saying, you know, this is, you know, this is where we're Speaker0: currently at as a society. Speaker0: We're working on this being more embodied in our own way, or individuating and Speaker0: reclaiming the body or oneself expression.
Speaker0: But it was also saying that we don't know what the next step is so i i don't Speaker0: see that as a failure of the movie i see that as a at all i see that as a very Speaker0: potent artistic and fairly subtle artistic statement that this is look this Speaker0: is just we're reporting this is where our gender relations are at right now Speaker0: we don't really know what the next step is.
Speaker1: I think it's an invitation to get creative like to imagine to engage our curiosity Speaker1: so i i think we're in agreement it's it's an artistic Speaker1: potent like so now what happens right Speaker0: Do you have any thoughts.
Speaker1: On our it's in our hands i mean i feel a little bit like a broken record but Speaker1: i do think the more we we all become conscious Speaker1: in whatever ways that we do i i want to be clear i'm not like the person who Speaker1: thinks every single human needs to do psychedelics and the world will be better Speaker1: i actually don't don't have that view. Speaker1: But I think there are myriad ways to awaken our consciousness.
Speaker1: And what I really mean when I say that is that we're doing less on autopilot Speaker1: and more by kind of we've grappled with this, like whatever the decision is, Speaker1: do I like men or women or both? Speaker1: Do I want to go to college or no? Speaker1: Do I want to have kids or no? You see what I mean? Yeah. Speaker0: Yeah. I'll offer a counter to that I've thought about as well, Speaker0: which is, I feel that this can also be a burden.
Speaker0: Well, I would certainly, I would love, I would choose choosing my own hyper, Speaker0: you know, my own path of individuation or anything else any day, Speaker0: but I've just noticed as time has gone on and I've been in the, Speaker0: you know, this type of, of, of, I do this type of thing for a living. Speaker0: You just see, as I'm sure you have, you know, you can go to these seminars just Speaker0: to, you know, just to really put a blatant point on it.
Speaker0: You can go to these weekend personal development seminars and you see people Speaker0: in their 60s still trying to find themselves. Speaker0: And I've come to believe, you know, that it's almost standard and that that's kind of a scary thing. Speaker1: And very scary. Speaker0: Yeah. And I think that I've come to at least think a little bit that our society Speaker0: kind of puts an undue burden on people to find themselves or find their true path.
Speaker0: And people can spend a lot of time, like 20 years, trying to, Speaker0: and I think young men are particularly susceptible to this.
Speaker0: They can spend years decades trying Speaker0: to work on themselves or find themselves and that's Speaker0: great but you know you look at other cultures where they Speaker0: don't people aren't burdened with that they're not burdened Speaker0: with the spiritual quest it's just like here's what Speaker0: we both you know here's your religion you're going to get married Speaker0: at 20 you know and obviously there's huge or younger
Speaker0: and obviously there can be huge problems with Speaker0: that but you also see that the Speaker0: society kind of does that for people and doesn't leave Speaker0: them with the bill um again i'm Speaker0: again i'm really just more throwing reference points Speaker0: out rather than asking questions but i've Speaker0: noticed that dynamic a lot as well and i think that the personal development Speaker0: seminar industry whatever you want to call it of course and you know of course
Speaker0: encourages that because it always wants to sell the next thing the next breakthrough Speaker0: package the next you know weekend retreat so yes.
Speaker1: And all of this stuff as someone who works Speaker1: in like mental health and i guess we could say Speaker1: wellness makes me feel so not like it's it's very uncomfortable because it is Speaker1: i would say a phenomenon of now there's a really thought provoking i don't know Speaker1: even i think he's a philosopher he's a scholar his name is bio Speaker1: I hope I pronounced that right. Speaker1: But I recently participated in just as one of many in a virtual lecture that he gave.
Speaker1: And the title was something like, what do we do when the wellness world is sick? Speaker1: And it was like, I mean, everything that you're talking about now is part of what he was raising. Speaker1: Like, are we actually getting better by these things? Or are we just now doing Speaker1: this as part of the stuff that we do to scratch some itch? Speaker1: But now we're making new itches, like kicking the can, sort of. Speaker1: So, yes, I think we have to grapple, you know.
Speaker1: But I also, then I think like, and this is true, certainly in Mexico, Speaker1: where people get married younger, they have kids younger, you know, Speaker1: and they're not pontificating so much. Speaker0: Right, right. Speaker1: So part of me also wants to say that the pontification is a byproduct of privilege. Speaker0: Absolutely. It absolutely is. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Speaker1: Yet at the same time, I'm not...
Speaker0: It's not necessarily bad, but yeah, that is what it is, I think. Speaker1: It is. If we weren't in some level of privilege, we wouldn't have the time or Speaker1: the luxury to be thinking this much. Speaker1: Not that we shouldn't be thinking this much, but also the context of it all. Speaker1: Where does it all fit? And I think personally, as someone in the wellness world, Speaker1: to be an integrity in this world, we have to deconstruct where helping is monetized.
Speaker0: Yeah. Speaker1: Like, yeah, that to me is just a big, big challenge that the wellness world needs to really look at. Speaker1: It's like programs and plans and protocols and all of this stuff and package deals. Speaker0: Right. Well, of course, it's monetized. I mean, let's not, I mean, Speaker0: people have to, people make their, this is an industry and people make their living.
Speaker0: I mean, I sell courses on meditation and spirituality and, you know, Speaker0: the flip side of that is, well, you're doing a job for people, Speaker0: you know, that's your job. Speaker0: You know, the idea that it shouldn't be monetized also doesn't work. Speaker0: And I will say, you know, as I will say, just to let some pressure off. Speaker0: I mean, it's like, say what you will about the wellness world. Speaker0: It's like, have you seen the medical industry?
Speaker0: It's a whole lot worse the wellness industry looks like looks like you know Speaker0: saintly compared to yeah exactly a lot of whom actually are so just as a point Speaker0: of context it's like yeah like have you ever totally you know interacted with Speaker0: the actual medical establishment you know so i. Speaker1: Mean i i have so many Speaker0: Clients we're not doing unnecessary surgeries on people to get paid you You know what I mean?
Speaker1: Yeah. Yes. I mean, I survived medical trauma through my birth and, Speaker1: so many interventions that were like, okay, I consented, but let's just talk about what is consent. Speaker1: Shoving papers at people and saying sign, I don't think that's conscious consent. Speaker1: So yes, I mean, I'm in the wellness world. I'm not trying to totally shame and blame it for all things.
Speaker1: I just think we need to be willing to have these sorts of hard and uncomfortable Speaker1: conversation so that we can be part of the solution against the established Speaker1: system that perpetuates sickness for sure. Speaker0: Well, I have a couple thoughts about that. One is I think that in my lifetime, Speaker0: even to have conversations like psychedelics, I mean, this is very novel to have that in public.
Speaker0: And things like spirituality, wellness, psychedelics, these Speaker0: were artifacts of the underground you had Speaker0: to go to you had to leave society in Speaker0: order to find them and there were some good things about that but there were also Speaker0: some very bad things about that and our society i Speaker0: think has improved and grown so much since the Speaker0: we've had access to the internet just everyone's smarter Speaker0: about everything and obviously there's
Speaker0: downsides too but we don't need to dwell on that so it's Speaker0: a really positive step that these things are now Speaker0: accessible to everyone and not just accessible but part of the cultural dialogue Speaker0: that's wonderful the idea that it's like you know some of these things could Speaker0: be you know psychedelics mdma could potentially be you know legalized for therapeutic
Speaker0: use things like this i don't know where that is currently but that is wonderful it's wonderful. Speaker0: I think that I think what we need to do, though, is just it's not really an Speaker0: issue of wellness or or profit motive. Speaker0: It's not just profit, but I mean, you know, making money. Speaker0: The issue is I think we just need to define clearly what are we doing? Speaker0: And that can be different from thing to thing. It's like what you say.
Speaker0: So you mentioned, are people getting better? Speaker0: It's like, well, what are the criteria we're measuring by? What are we promising Speaker0: people? Are we actually giving, delivering to them what we promised? Speaker0: If what is promised is a magical fix for your entire life, for the beauty of Speaker0: religion and psychedelics, that's not going to happen.
Speaker0: But if the promise, if the expectations are managed, you know, Speaker0: it's like we're going to work on one, Speaker0: maybe breaking one negative personality pattern here or something like that Speaker0: so that it can be defined so that it's not BS. Yes.
Speaker0: I think as long as outcomes can be clearly defined and then given to people, Speaker0: as long as you tell people what you're going to do, how much it's going to cost, Speaker0: and then you deliver on your promise, that's great. Speaker0: I mean, how is that different from any other service provider? Speaker0: You know, it's not. And I tend to look at spiritual wellness people as service
Speaker0: providers. I think that that's a healthy frame, you know, rather than gurus or something like that. Speaker1: I agree. I agree with the service provider piece. Speaker1: I agree with more or less all of it. I think the tricky part in psychedelics Speaker1: is that you can talk ad nauseum with people about managing their expectations, Speaker1: about framing their expectations realistically, Speaker1: And dot, dot, dot.
Speaker1: When you have like an inner child of a person who's wounded Speaker1: The adult may say yes to one thing, but the inner child is like still holding Speaker1: out hope for something else, no matter how much you try to manage those expectations. Speaker1: And I'm not necessarily saying that then that's on the shoulders of the provider or the facilitator. Speaker1: If they've done their due diligence to sort of name it, I mean,
Speaker1: this is my life. I do this with clients all the time. Speaker1: Let's talk really honestly about how this is going to go. Speaker1: And let's be sure you understand, this is probably going to feel worse before Speaker1: it gets better. And knowing that, do you still say yes? Speaker1: Not always do people say yes, but often people say yes. Speaker1: And then when it's harder before it's better, they're sad, which is understandable.
Speaker1: So was I, you know, but I think that's the tricky part is like with a future Speaker1: undefined, Like people don't necessarily, Speaker1: their concept of what better might be and what they discover better is going Speaker1: to require don't always sync up perfectly. Speaker0: Yeah, no, you raise such a good point about that people need to be aware of, Speaker0: which is levels of consciousness that people have.
Speaker0: And you know this is this is a little bit this is going to be a little bit dark Speaker0: but I think it's warranted perhaps to, Speaker0: underline this like how important and potentially severe the Speaker0: consequences of this thing can kind of be I was talking to Ramsey Dukes who's Speaker0: a kind of an old school chaos magician from from the UK and he made such a good Speaker0: point where he was talking about cults and how people get involved with cults
Speaker0: and I think he's just been watching a documentary about it or he's talking about Speaker0: a cult in the 60s that he was aware of Speaker0: and he said that when you have a situation with an abusive cult leader who's Speaker0: using their power to get sex, basically. Speaker0: And people say like, well, those are all adults. They chose to be there.
Speaker0: And he said, well, are they really? Because what's happening in cult situations Speaker0: often is techniques are being used to regress people to a childlike state. Speaker0: So just because somebody is physically an adult, if you regress them to a childhood Speaker0: state and put them in a cult and religious environments, that's usually the Speaker0: first thing they do just to get people pliant and compliant.
Speaker0: If you if somebody is mentally in their five-year-old self because they've been Speaker0: told they need to be there to process trauma or something like that and then Speaker0: somebody abuses them you know maybe legally that's not child abuse but technically Speaker0: it kind of is you know what i mean. Speaker1: Yeah i mean and in maybe Speaker0: And can they give consent and can they give truly give consent Sorry,
Speaker0: that's just, that's why I brought that up. What does consent mean in that situation? Speaker1: Right. I mean, I think that this is such an important thing to be deliberately Speaker1: discussing when we're talking about psychedelic work, Speaker1: because people do go into these altered states of consciousness.
Speaker1: And, you know, from a therapeutic jargon language place, Speaker1: we would say that there's something called transference that can go on between, you know, Speaker1: the patient and the practitioner, where the patient sort of transfers out all Speaker1: of their unresolved material onto the provider.
Speaker1: And so in that space Speaker1: great healing can happen you can have Speaker1: what I would call our corrective experiences so Speaker1: for example you know I was referring to this great Speaker1: cultural mother wound that we have you know a lot of my clients have mother Speaker1: wounds and so they go into these spaces and you know they're remembering a time Speaker1: when they were very little and vulnerable and their mother I'm sure not even
Speaker1: meaning to, basically shamed them, Speaker1: left them feeling unloved, unlovable. Speaker1: And so this moment is coming up in this altered state of consciousness. Speaker1: And I'm saying to them, what if I told you, you didn't do anything wrong?
Speaker1: Now, in that space, because there was, again, that neurogenetic activity and plasticity in the mind, Speaker1: you can almost feel it with a tangible quality to the room, the way that the Speaker1: correction is happening inside the person's, their cells, Speaker1: their belief systems, all of this stuff.
Speaker1: Now, what can be really dangerous is if someone is not well-trained or ethically sound, Speaker1: so much advantage can be taken of that vulnerability in these altered states Speaker1: of consciousness where people wield power.
Speaker1: I mean, there's a chapter in my book that talks about a young woman who is no Speaker1: longer living in her life because of an experience she had in an altered state Speaker1: of consciousness where she was directed to, Speaker1: in order to heal her trauma, Speaker1: face her trauma, to explore reparative touch with a male practitioner.
Speaker1: You know, the dark or not, I think, and I appreciate you bringing it up because Speaker1: we have to help people understand these are risks that can and do happen. Speaker0: Yeah, obviously that is super inappropriate. Hopefully it, well, Speaker0: it sounds like it did go bad. I think that...
Speaker0: Yeah. And it's disturbing too, because, you know, I don't know what the legalities Speaker0: on this are like worldwide, but, you know, I lived in, I recently moved, Speaker0: but I grew up in California and in, Speaker0: Southern California and in California does not require any licensing whatsoever Speaker0: for alternative medicine practitioners at all. Speaker0: You don't need to have a degree. You don't need to have a certificate.
Speaker0: You don't even need to do a weekend seminar somewhere. Speaker0: You can just declare yourself an alternative healer. Speaker0: And of course, that creates an environment where there's tons of things available. Speaker0: But also, you know, I mean, like, we just have to be honest, Speaker0: it's just like, you know, psychedelics don't fix people. They're a tool.
Speaker0: But a lot of times what you have is you have people who go into these, Speaker0: these fields to maybe just same with psychology, I imagine they go in to fix Speaker0: something, they're working on themselves.
Speaker0: But then eventually they decide that they're the guru they Speaker0: become financially dependent on it it becomes kind of Speaker0: a just a repeating thing and situations Speaker0: like that not just can emerge do Speaker0: emerge and happen all the time i hear about them Speaker0: all the time right to the point where Speaker0: i wouldn't you know like i would not counsel anybody to do Speaker0: unless they're with somebody who's like really trained
Speaker0: right i wouldn't counsel people just to do psychedelics with other people that Speaker0: they don't know you know it's not exactly like being on on ghb or something Speaker0: but you're not exactly fully in control of your physical body and that's very Speaker0: dangerous thing that can be a very dangerous thing so it's.
Speaker1: A very it can be a very very dangerous thing yes we cannot say this lightly Speaker1: enough especially when someone has unresolved trauma i think the importance Speaker1: of having a skilled practitioner who understands all of that Speaker1: It's just so important. And it is sort of the Wild West with all of what's available Speaker1: and all of what's underground.
Speaker1: And then, you know, I think, I don't even know how much of a tangent this could Speaker1: be, but I'll just say it because it's pertinent to this line of topic that we're on. Speaker1: But, you know, I feel like as psychedelics have sort of experienced this, Speaker1: this renaissance that they're in now, Speaker1: how many stories I've heard of people who have gone to like far away, Speaker1: distant lands to have that true indigenous experience.
Speaker1: And obviously, I have such great regard for indigenous healers as someone who Speaker1: lives around them, has studied from them. Speaker1: And also, I have said to my elders in this community, and I've said to many Speaker1: clients, even if you go to the indigenous place where these medicines originated, Speaker1: you've got to remember you're going in as a guest.
Speaker1: And you're going in to be have space held by someone who might not even speak Speaker1: your language and you don't know what is going to come up it's not to say that Speaker1: they're not the experts because this is their medicine but it is also to think Speaker1: about what do you individually need in order to be supported in this space Speaker0: Right right and presumably that would best come out of like a long-term therapeutic Speaker0: relationship, I would assume.
Speaker0: I mean, I don't know, but yeah. Speaker0: And as you're saying that, as you bring this up and as you bring up the transference Speaker0: dynamic, which, yeah, is a real, you know, it's really something that people Speaker0: who do this type of thing have to be very, very conscious of.
Speaker0: There's the issue, not just of the facilitator or the teacher or the leader Speaker0: or the therapist, but the other people in the community where I think that, Speaker0: you know, like I've seen so much in my life. Speaker0: Essentially, you get a bunch of spiritual people together and they start projecting Speaker0: their trauma on each other and saying like, I'm going to heal my trauma. Speaker0: I'm going to project my trauma on you and then heal it.
Speaker0: And you get this cross, you know, this cross trauma going on. Speaker0: And it's just so you know, when people particularly with psychedelics or spiritual Speaker0: techniques, they can they at the beginning, they get inflated, Speaker0: they give an inflated self worth, they may start thinking they have powers, Speaker0: or now they're a healer, or they have a, they're a star child, whatever.
Speaker0: And then, so the facilitator or the teacher can be a plus well trained, Speaker0: but people can still be subjected to, you know, all kinds of boundary blurring Speaker0: and inappropriateness within the community. Speaker0: And these techniques, particularly psychedelics, bring down the walls between people. Speaker0: But then, at least in my life, the next thing you figure out is those walls were there for a reason.
Speaker0: And navigating that space can be very navigating boundaries can be extremely Speaker0: tricky, particularly if you don't have any training in it. Speaker0: So it can your phrase, the Wild West, it can just some of these things can be just a free for all.
Speaker1: I think so. Absolutely. And, you know, personally, I'm not a big proponent of Speaker1: group work when people have complex trauma, because I think that we, Speaker1: I mean, I'm just going to do an average on average of the clients who I work Speaker1: with who have complex trauma. Speaker1: And maybe it's helpful for me to say to people to define what is the difference
Speaker1: between complex trauma and post-traumatic stress disorder. Okay, Speaker1: so let me just speak to that briefly. Speaker1: We talk about post-traumatic stress disorder. It's like the trauma that followed Speaker1: an isolated event or series of events. Speaker1: So take, for example, the veteran who went to fight in war or was deployed somewhere. Speaker1: So he might have post-traumatic stress following or she following that specific Speaker1: period of time, that event.
Speaker1: It's like isolated, bracketed in some way. We talk about complex traumatic stress disorder. Speaker1: We're talking about this began from, could be from utero, could be from, you know, toddlerhood. Speaker1: It's like the person doesn't have a time that they can like harken back to when Speaker1: there was an absence of trauma. Speaker1: So everything about their sense of normalcy is scrambled from the get-go.
Speaker1: So now with that context established, most of my clients have complex trauma, Speaker1: meaning that once they are, even without the meds, once we start doing work Speaker1: together, they could be two years old, they could be seven years old, Speaker1: like psychologically speaking, Speaker1: when the transference comes on.
Speaker1: And so on average, I would say it takes people anywhere from a year to three Speaker1: to really be at a place where they're like, Speaker1: know what all is going on inside them and have enough transferential work that Speaker1: they can go out in the world and in a group setting and not start automatically Speaker1: doing that transferential projection onto any person that passes by.
Speaker0: So you find that people do do that. However, they, they, so what, Speaker0: what would examples of that be? Speaker1: Like in, for me as a therapist or just in general, Speaker0: Just, just, well, both. I mean, just I'm just so people can understand that Speaker0: dynamic and hopefully so they can catch that dynamic in themselves, Speaker0: because I think we all do it to some extent. Speaker0: And it's worth being aware of. Yeah.
Speaker1: Yes. So this is like when people, here's a classic example that I see all the time. Speaker1: And it happens in therapy. It also happens, people will then start to say, Speaker1: oh my God, I do this everywhere in my life. Speaker1: So they go into a session. And again, I want to clarify that I never start with Speaker1: clients with psychedelics. Speaker1: We build container in the relationship for a way a long time before we do that.
Speaker1: So even before we're taking any psychedelic medicines, people will start coming in with this line of. Speaker1: The dialogue that's like, are you mad at me? Am I doing this wrong? Speaker1: I don't know. What are you thinking right now? Speaker1: It's like a preoccupation and concern that I am assuming the worst about them. Speaker1: This is all transference, right? Speaker1: It's like their mommy or their daddy did not see them through the lens of love
Speaker1: and acceptance. And so they felt from the very beginning that something was flawed about them. Speaker1: And so they become tight. Speaker1: And I want to be, I'm not trying to pathologize people. This is just what happens. It's like psychology. Speaker1: It's not something defective about people. It's a trauma response.
Speaker1: When you're three or four and you've got a mean and scary mom or dad who's never Speaker1: approving, You start to, as a child, it's, you think the problem is with you Speaker1: because you're still reliant on the parent to take care of you. Speaker1: So it's, it's like counterintuitive to assume they must be the problem. Speaker1: No, no. The child is like, what am I doing wrong? Why can't I get love?
Speaker1: And so all of that starts coming forward, certainly in therapy, Speaker1: because we've designated that we're going to talk about the stuff. Speaker1: But I am saying that that is happening everywhere in life with our co-workers, Speaker1: with our, certainly with our boss, anyone who has perceived power. Speaker1: Oh, for sure. We are like, am I in trouble? Did I do it wrong? Oh my gosh. Speaker1: Because it's all going back to that original power dynamic between parents and child.
Speaker0: Yeah. And I suspect that people and unscrupulous people in authority positions Speaker0: are well aware of that and can utilize that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker1: And exploit that. Like the example that I gave of the young woman. Speaker1: Like there was a facilitator who totally picked up on the fact that she.
Speaker1: Was vulnerable there. And instead of like taking that, you know, Speaker1: as a sacred thing, how can I support you and feeling safe, Speaker1: cultivating safety and agency and all of this stuff took advantage of that. Speaker0: Yeah. And that's a very common story. And unfortunately, this is why I do all Speaker0: of my quote unquote, I do all of my teaching online and then I make, Speaker0: make it very clear to people on social media that I am completely out of my mind.
Speaker0: So they don't think that, uh, and that actually does pretty well at cutting Speaker0: through transference, I have to say. Speaker0: But yeah, but I hear these stories all the time.
Speaker0: The reality is we live in the jungle. And, and I think that people who portray Speaker0: themselves as spiritual have of course, an additional responsibility because Speaker0: one of the traumas that can occur is, Speaker0: I mean, you heard about this all the time in the guru cults in the 60s and 70s.
Speaker0: When you have the extreme in the opposite direction where you have somebody Speaker0: who's taking advantage of transference so much that they're basically representing Speaker0: themselves as God or the conduit to God to everyone. Speaker0: And then that person takes advantage of you. Well, now that's like God abusing Speaker0: you, right? So now that trust is violated as well. So now that's like spiritual abuse.
Speaker0: So people need to be very, very cognizant of these things. And I think that Speaker0: I agree with you on group work. Speaker0: I think that anything that involves, you know.
Speaker0: Huge kind of altered state experiences and groups of people, Speaker0: that's pretty dangerous i think that Speaker0: promising anything with with Speaker0: hierarchy levels grades circles Speaker0: of need to know basis like there's inner truths for some people that the rest Speaker0: of the people don't have access to incredibly dangerous of course everyone should Speaker0: go into these things with carrying robert lifton's eight criteria for for mind
Speaker0: control cults anything where they're trying to separate you from your family, Speaker0: anything where there's lots of jargon that you have to learn, you know, Speaker0: basically keeping people in high pressure and sales environments. Speaker0: These are all very, these unscrupulous people can utilize these things. Speaker0: And I think one of the disturbing things that people don't like to admit is Speaker0: that people are pretty simple and pretty easy to manipulate.
Speaker0: We don't like to think that about ourselves, but, you know, it doesn't take much. Speaker1: No, it doesn't, especially if and when our vulnerabilities are tapped, Speaker1: because then, you know, we're vulnerable. Speaker1: We can easily be sort of persuaded to do things that we might not otherwise do.
Speaker1: This is why anyone who sits in a position of like holding that kind of space, Speaker1: I think has to be so, so careful with any kind of directives that we give to people like, Speaker1: you know, even just saying like, sometimes people in their experiences will Speaker1: ask like, what should I do? Speaker1: And my, my response is, is what do you think you should do?
Speaker1: You know, because again, it's like not about me and I have to be careful that Speaker1: I don't position myself even unintentionally to be their new authority. Speaker1: I'm trying to help them cultivate that within themselves, not, not outsource it to me. Speaker0: Yeah, that's very ethical of you. And that's, that's, that's wonderful. Speaker0: And it's more rare than it should be.
Speaker0: So yeah, if somebody is entering this world and wants to, you know, Speaker0: make sure they're doing it right. Speaker0: What's the best way to go about that? And determine what's what's healthy and what's not healthy? Speaker1: Yeah. I mean, I have a whole chapter in the book that talks about this because Speaker1: that's how complex I think it is. Speaker1: So I'm doing my best to sort of, you know, synthesize and make it succinct.
Speaker1: But I want to also just acknowledge that I don't think there's a one-dimensional answer. Speaker1: I guess mostly because I think different people need different things depending on what their trauma is, Speaker1: what they're trying, what their personality is like, like, I'm not going to Speaker1: be the right therapist for everyone. Speaker1: And that's, that's okay.
Speaker1: I might have all the right qualifications and criteria, but I always tell people Speaker1: above all else, when you sit down to have like consult with a person to see Speaker1: if they might be a good fit for you, Speaker1: you need to see how do you feel inside your body, Speaker1: inside yourself? Do you feel safe? Speaker1: Do you feel like, you know, like resonance, like some sort of organic... Speaker1: I think I'm okay with this person.
Speaker1: Because again, they could have all the right criteria in the world. Speaker1: But if your nervous system individually doesn't have that softening, Speaker1: it's probably not going to be the best fit. Speaker1: So I always really encourage people to use the opportunity of interviewing potential Speaker1: helpers to listen to their intuition. Speaker1: Where does their intuition get a yes or a no. So that's kind of the baseline.
Speaker1: And then I think you should know what is their background and training? Speaker1: Like how, how did they come to do this work? Speaker1: And again, and acknowledging that there's many paths that might prepare someone Speaker1: to do that sort of work, but certainly it should be more than, Speaker1: you know, well, I went and had 12 ayahuasca ceremonies and now I'm ready.
Speaker1: Sadly, There's a lot of, you know, then I also suggest that people, Speaker1: I mean, there really is in the book, like a list, list of, Speaker1: here are some questions that you should ask the person that you're interviewing. Speaker1: Cause I think people don't know. Speaker1: So for example, let me just toss out a couple really good ones. Speaker1: What's the hardest situation you've ever had with a client and how did you attempt to repair that?
Speaker1: Like, I really feel that people should ask this question.
Speaker1: Question because if you've been working in like the Speaker1: healing world for long enough certainly you have Speaker1: had somebody that even though you were trying to help it didn't go the way it Speaker1: was intended and so there's so much to learn about the ethics of a person by Speaker1: how they talk about their how transparent they are to talk about that and also Speaker1: how they navigated trying to repair would
Speaker0: You say that if somebody is kind of dodging that question that that's a red flag? Speaker1: Yeah, I would. Yeah. Because I think that I do genuinely believe what like one Speaker1: of my mentors always says to me, if you work with someone for a really long Speaker1: time and they've never gotten upset with you, Speaker1: you should be concerned that you're not maybe helping them enough. Speaker1: Because go back to that idea of transfer it.
Speaker1: Like we're not just trying to have warm, fuzzy, corrective experiences. Speaker1: Is we're trying to like make it all safe again, which is included in that most Speaker1: people have to go through a chapter in their healing, Speaker1: a chapter months in their healing, however you want to conceptualize it, Speaker1: where getting mad feels like it's allowed. Speaker0: It's safe. Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker1: You know, so, you know, if I work with people long enough, they go through periods Speaker1: where it's like they're mad. Speaker1: Not at me, but it's like, reclaiming that it's safe to be mad. Speaker0: That's really important. That was very important for me, at least. Speaker1: Yes. It's huge. And I think that people don't understand this. Speaker1: And they get, again, they get freaked out, this transference, and like, oh, no.
Speaker1: Chapter one is like, are you mad at me? And then chapter two, Speaker1: I mean, I'm saying hypothetical.
Speaker1: I don't know that's chapter one, chapter two, but somewhere in the story, it's like, Speaker1: now the person is feeling there's enough safety there's Speaker1: enough healing that's transpired they feel safe enough to transfer negative Speaker1: things out like okay that's deeply corrective too so people who are helpers Speaker1: and and healers space holders are avoiding this yes i think that's a red flag okay Speaker0: God that's got to be tricky with complex ptsd.
Speaker1: It is very tricky and it Speaker1: doesn't always you know in well because Speaker1: sometimes when people get to that part and Speaker1: they perceive that they're really hurt by something Speaker1: that maybe i said that was misinterpreted or maybe i didn't say it in a way Speaker1: like i could have said it better you know and then their feelings get hurt and Speaker1: then they're they're lost in what I would call the event memory, meaning the past.
Speaker1: So whatever got triggered brought up what happened way back in their childhood. Speaker1: And it's really their choice. I can't make someone repair. Speaker1: I can say to someone, you know, this is really hard and uncomfortable. Speaker1: And I'd love to explore what repair could feel like, like it is so okay with me. Speaker1: I I'm happy for you to feel upset about this and to take responsibility for Speaker1: what's mine and to see how we can work through it.
Speaker1: That might be really healing. Yeah. Speaker1: But sometimes people choose to eject and the story stops there. Speaker0: Yeah. Speaker1: And what if somebody ejects, Speaker0: As you put it, which I assume is just not, you know, ceasing to contact the therapist. Speaker0: What's the deal with that? I mean, how does that? Is that bad? Speaker0: I mean, is it sometimes that is that what needs to happen sometimes? I mean. Speaker1: Well, to find bad. I mean, bad for who? Bad for them?
Speaker1: For the client. I mean, I suppose I think for the client, it's, Speaker1: I don't think there is, it's, to me, it's sat, right? Speaker1: Because the opportunity to repair, which would have meant, which could have Speaker1: felt really healing and good, didn't get to happen. Speaker1: But also, it just is what it is. Speaker1: People can only show up to the degree that they're able and ready.
Speaker1: Like I've had people like what we might want to call ghosting in our colloquialism Speaker1: of today, sort of ghost when something got a little uncomfortable. Speaker1: And then I've had them show up like a year later and say, you know, Speaker1: I haven't stopped thinking about that. Speaker1: I think now I'm ready to work on that. Speaker1: Okay. So it just is what it is. It's like, I think it's all an invitation,
Speaker1: you know? And when that has happened, where people have showed up later, I'm like, great. Speaker1: I'm so glad. Let's have that conversation now. Speaker0: One thing that somebody pointed out to me once that I haven't stopped thinking Speaker0: about since is the pattern that people often fall into where they probably have Speaker0: a landmine or 12 like that in their nervous system somewhere.
Speaker0: And I think a pattern that some people can fall into, I've even noticed myself Speaker0: doing this is they'll go get involved in a spiritual thing or psychedelic, Speaker0: you know, modality or therapeutic modality, some something to work personal development. Speaker0: And then they'll be all about it. And they'll do everything right.
Speaker0: And that's the new thing until they hit that landmine. And then they're going Speaker0: to blow up ghost and go repeat the cycle somewhere else. Speaker0: And they might repeat that like, like a bunch of different places in the spiritual Speaker0: marketplace, you know, never get past that landmine. Speaker0: And I've noticed that with myself at times where it's just like something's just too painful.
Speaker0: And then all of a sudden, maybe you hit a landmine and you realize maybe you Speaker0: don't actually trust the people around you enough to be able to detonate that safely. Speaker0: So that's a tricky bit that people can get into, I think. And I think that's very common. Speaker0: You certainly see that on the seminar circuit where it's like people are doing Speaker0: something new every weekend.
Speaker1: Mm-hmm. I mean, yes, I think that both of, both of what you said can be true, Speaker1: but they might not feel safe in that context to be able to lean into the repair. Speaker1: It feels too charged for some reason. Mm-hmm. Speaker1: Yeah. I mean, I think that this comes up all the time. Speaker1: That's why to go back to the original question, I think it's, Speaker1: it's like a great window into a practitioner.
Speaker1: If you're like exploring, are they a good fit to ask them to talk about how Speaker1: they handle repair? Okay. Speaker1: Cause it's like, you're, you're sort of vetting them. Speaker1: Okay. If this gets hard, how, how are they going to meet me? Speaker0: That's great. That's really good. I feel like that, that, that's a really helpful thing.
Speaker0: I'm curious also you talked Speaker0: about cptsd when somebody's nervous system is basically put on the trauma setting Speaker0: from the get-go how like do you do you do you think psychedelics really can Speaker0: offer a way through that 100 talk about that please because that's that's pretty major. Speaker1: It is pretty major and i also say it with with the tone of like my god did you Speaker1: really say that because I want to be clear.
Speaker1: I don't want to be part of the sort of mythologizing around psychedelics because Speaker1: I did not say that psychedelics can fix various neurodivergent presentations. Speaker1: And sometimes those commingle with CPTSD and it's the chicken or egg which came first. Speaker1: That's not what you asked me. So I'm specifically going to underscore that, Speaker1: do I think psychedelics can radically transform a person's complex trauma orientation
Speaker1: to themselves and the world? Yes. Okay. Speaker0: So just to repeat back, so I make sure I understand what you're saying. Speaker0: What I understand of what you just said is psychedelics can be incredibly helpful Speaker0: for working through even complex trauma, but they won't change a neurodivergent presentation.
Speaker0: Like for instance, if somebody's also on the autistic spectrum, Speaker0: obviously it's not going to change that, but that may interlock with the trauma Speaker0: and have been part of some underlying factor. Speaker0: So the trauma can be resolved. Do I have that about right?
Speaker1: You're pretty much right on right on Speaker1: the nose thank you for clarifying i think the one thing that Speaker1: can be tricky in my experience of working with people who have you know more Speaker1: pronounced neurodivergent presentations they can improve their understanding Speaker1: of themselves and their history but they might still struggle with certain things that Speaker1: They feel came out of the trauma, but are also part of the construction of how their brain is built.
Speaker1: And we can't necessarily change that, right? Speaker1: And so sometimes these things get kind of braided together and it gets tricky to unbraid it all. Speaker1: But if we're talking about just like the core of the trauma where, you know, Speaker1: Let me use myself as an example because I can out myself and I'm not compromising any privacy here. Speaker1: So, you know, I have a lot of OCD that I think some of it is epigenetically, I'm predisposed to it.
Speaker1: Lots of people in my family have it. I have done extensive psychedelic healing work. Speaker1: I still have presentations of OCD behaviors. Are they as extreme as they were before? Speaker1: No, but they're not gone because I think some of it is just like my neurological Speaker1: construction, which is not necessarily changed, but the hypervigilant expression Speaker1: of those, which was informed by the trauma.
Speaker1: So I had a lot of religious spiritual trauma, which made me have obsessiveness Speaker1: around cleanliness and germs and contamination, all of that stuff. Speaker1: That is nowhere near as vigilantly expressed as it was because the parts of Speaker1: it that were a byproduct of my trauma have by and large been resolved. Speaker1: But there's still some like, it's not like it's gone. Do you understand what Speaker1: I mean? Does that analogy help?
Speaker0: Yeah, I do. And I think that I actually tweeted this the other day, Speaker0: or X did, I guess I have to say X now. Speaker1: Yeah. Speaker0: I think that society has come so far in the last 20 years in understanding that Speaker0: neurodiversity is even a thing.
Speaker0: I think that it's wonderful. And I think that one of the biggest things that Speaker0: could help the human race, in addition to psychedelic and MDMA therapy, Speaker0: which really help is an understanding of neurodiversity.
Speaker0: And it's a powerful thing to understand that there are, Speaker0: there's a difference between hardware when it's you're coming to psychology some Speaker0: things are software and some things are hardware and if Speaker0: you understand that something's hardware well now you're not going to beat yourself Speaker0: up about it you're just going to say well that's how my brain works how to let Speaker0: me figure out how to work with that instead of against it and that can be so
Speaker0: healing and it can relieve so much shame and guilt for the feeling of oh there's Speaker0: something wrong with me. Speaker0: I think that this is something that people need to become much, Speaker0: much, much more aware of. Speaker0: You know, there was that great book, Neurotribes, that came out. Speaker0: The author just died, Steve Silverman, that talks about this a bit. Speaker0: But we understand so much more about ASD, ADD, ADHD, CPTSD, PTSD,
Speaker0: and I'm sure tons that I'm leaving out. There really are. Speaker0: People are walking around with different neurologies and you can't tell based Speaker0: on their outer, their outer form. Speaker0: But at the same time, you know, somebody with a certain neurology may have more Speaker0: in common with somebody for halfway across the world from a totally different Speaker0: class, background, gender than they will their own, you know, Speaker0: people that are related to them.
Speaker0: So that's an incredibly interesting thing as well, that there are people, Speaker0: you know, like there are neuro tribes. Speaker0: There are people with the same neurology who are broadly working on the same, Speaker0: you know, on the same page, but they may, that may cross all of their social Speaker0: boundaries. That's fascinating to me. Speaker0: But I think that that, that we've really come a long way in that.
Speaker1: I think we have too. And I just want to echo this point because it comes up Speaker1: so much in my work is like, Speaker1: I think we still have like a great opportunity here to make it even more normalized Speaker1: and inclusive because I would go so far as to say that I think we're all more Speaker1: or less neurodivergent than we are neurotypical. Speaker1: I think whatever is neurotypical is actually more the minority than the majority.
Speaker1: Like that is my experience of working with a lot of people is that they are Speaker1: divergent in so many different ways. If we think of it along a continuum and Speaker1: neurotypical is somewhere in the center, people are not that many people are in the center. Speaker0: Oh, really? Speaker1: And no, more people are like divergent.
Speaker1: They're different expressions. And so many of them, I think, Speaker1: feel still like quite stigmatized about the ways in which they experience themselves as different. Speaker1: Yeah. And that because historically to be different, you know, might be bad. Speaker1: And so I mean, I can't tell you how many might Speaker0: Get you killed. Speaker0: Yeah, totally.
Speaker1: I mean, I have so many clients who, to go back to a former topic, Speaker1: they weren't really mothered in the way that they had an engaged mother who's watching them. Speaker1: And it's like, oh, man, my kid is like, something's going on with my kid. Speaker1: They're computing information a little bit differently.
Speaker1: Let's check that out. So they went all their life having ADD, Speaker1: ADHD, thinking they're not that intelligent or whatever stories they created for themselves. Speaker1: And in fact, you know, here they are at age 42. Oh, my kid has ADHD. Speaker1: And so the doctor or whoever suggested I get tested and what do you know?
Speaker1: No wonder everything's been so hard. So these things can come as almost like Speaker1: a relief because people have been thinking if they cure their trauma, Speaker1: that these things will go away. Speaker1: I'm like, some things will, but other things we have to actually still take care of. Speaker0: Yeah, I think that. Speaker0: You know, as barbaric as some of the history of mental health has been, Speaker0: I think that, you know, that's one thing.
Speaker0: There's a lot of things about our society now that I think are unbelievably optimistic. Speaker0: And that's one of them, just that people are having more of an understanding of that. Speaker0: And when I think about that compared to what, even in the 1950s, Speaker0: people were still saying schizophrenia was caused by bad mothering. Speaker0: You know, like that's within people's lifetime.
Speaker0: You know lobotomies that's within people's lifetime Speaker0: you know so that's a that's a whole lot of progress has been made and obviously Speaker0: we're way far away but i i just think it's such a wonderful thing i think that Speaker0: i think the wellness industry has had a part in that as well just broadening Speaker0: people's idea of what is possible me. Speaker1: Too and i think that that's like we're living in hard times right now.
Speaker1: There's a lot of dystopian-ness in the world. Speaker1: So I am with you. Speaker1: In the midst of all that is hard and we don't know how to solve right now, Speaker1: there are also things that are good. Speaker1: It's not all that. And I think it's important that we hold the perspective of Speaker1: where the progress is so that we don't lose heart. Speaker0: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And it's, you know, our media culture encourages a 24 hour news cycle.
Speaker0: And I think that all you really have to do to relax sometimes is just zoom out Speaker0: and look at things on a larger timescale. Maybe, maybe not. Speaker0: But on many things you can. Speaker0: I think that, you know, the point that you made about realizing that you have Speaker0: a certain neurology, you know, I think that, you know, it's like I teach spiritual techniques. Speaker0: So I think almost by definition, the people that I work with are feel different, you know, and, and.
Speaker0: The way that I look at spirituality is, you know, everyone has a true will, Speaker0: everyone's got a true, true, or a core sense of self core essence core path through life. Speaker0: And that it's not about cutting yourself to fit society. It's about determining Speaker0: what's what works for you, what's right for you.
Speaker0: And yeah, you can have and just to make that practical, you know, Speaker0: like how many people have we heard of that did terribly in school because they Speaker0: were dyslexic, for instance, Speaker0: but then ended up becoming CEOs or once Speaker0: they figured out how to run their own neurology properly and Speaker0: figure out how to how to manipulate life Speaker0: so it fits them instead of the other way around or you
Speaker0: know maybe somebody grows up with you know maybe somebody has ADHD or something Speaker0: and classroom work just does not work for them so they get the message that Speaker0: they're stupid but then maybe they go to like trade school now all of a sudden Speaker0: they go to trade school and do a job where they're working with their hands, Speaker0: now they're a genius at that. Speaker0: Right. And it's just like they weren't in the right context for them.
Speaker0: They just needed to find the right context for them. So. Speaker1: Right. Right. Meanwhile, in the absence of like an engaged sort of parent or. Speaker1: Whenever someone who's shepherding that life, stewarding that life, Speaker1: they internalize all of these negative beliefs of perceived inadequacy. Speaker1: And in fact, they're not failing the system, it's failing them. Speaker1: I have so many clients who believe until they realize that something is defective about their brain.
Speaker1: When in fact, they're like so smart. Speaker1: Right. So smart and capable. Speaker1: And many of them are, it's like, they're, they're not unsuccessful in their Speaker1: lives. So you can just see that this belief goes all the way back to childhood. Yeah. Speaker0: Yeah, I think I mean, just just I mean, just imagine having an educational system Speaker0: where people were had some understanding of these types of things and could Speaker0: spot just different neurology types.
Speaker0: And then there were, you know, well vetted protocols in place, you know, Speaker0: vetted by cycle trial psychologists and all this of how to help that person Speaker0: learn best, you know, maybe maybe they're in a different environment, Speaker0: maybe they're, you know, learning outside instead of in a classroom, Speaker0: you know, things like that. Speaker0: So I think that we're so much smarter as a society, we just need to operationalize Speaker0: a lot of things that we know.
Speaker0: And I think that I'm very curious where the dialogue is currently on psychedelics Speaker0: and MDMA use for therapy, because I've kind of been out of that loop for a while. Speaker0: And I'm not sure where that legal line is and how that's going, Speaker0: because I think that definitely, you know, I like both of them.
Speaker0: I think the MDMA, I mean, the potential of MDMA for things like combat trauma Speaker0: and things like that, or it's just that's medicine that the human race needs Speaker0: if it's administered correctly. And I think it do a tremendous amount of good. Speaker1: Well, you are you are in like minded company. I mean, I've been witness to it Speaker1: making changes for people, saving marriages, like saving lives.
Speaker1: The legality is complicated. If we just talk about MDMA, so MAPS is the organization Speaker1: who's been leading the clinical trials. Speaker1: And, you know, there was a huge event hosted by MAPS in 2023 in Denver called Psychedelic Science.
Speaker1: And the big exciting thing in psychedelic science is that the success of the Speaker1: glaring success of the clinical trials have been such that we were all sort of like, Speaker1: Well, Max was basically saying in 2024, for sure, we will have the FDA's green light to move forward. Speaker1: There's so much research. There's so much discussion about this out in the world, Speaker1: but I'm trying to just do the clip note. Speaker1: The FDA most recently did not approve to that.
Speaker1: They did not deny approval, but they required more study. Speaker1: And that was kind of like a blow for everyone involved because it was like, Speaker1: nobody saw that answer coming. Speaker1: And what more compelling evidence can we give than what's already been established? Speaker1: Just sort of the sentiment of the folks who'd been involved in the clinical trials.
Speaker1: It's like, didn't we establish this? And anyways, I would just say that we are Speaker1: experiencing a kind of, I mean, we've already had a war on drugs. Speaker1: Like that happened a long time ago. And I think that we'll have some version Speaker1: of that that will happen again. Speaker0: Oh, that's not good. Speaker1: But here's the, so I don't want to end on a dark note.
Speaker1: I don't want to end on a, let's hold hearts. We have come so much further than Speaker1: where we stood when the war on drugs happened in the 80s. Speaker1: We have brought things so much further forward. I think that all expansion is Speaker1: like a series of contractions and expansion. Speaker0: Absolutely. Absolutely. Speaker1: And I think that this is one of those moments of contraction because there's Speaker1: a lot of fear and stuff going on in the world.
Speaker1: And it's scary to stand at the prospect of what could be and so much is unknown. Speaker1: I do not think that these are going to go out of the future of mental health. Speaker1: They are a huge player in the future of mental health. Speaker1: And I think that more clinical trials are going to show more of the same, Speaker1: and that's just going to make the case stronger.
Speaker1: As far as legalities pertaining to things like psilocybin, it's very much state Speaker1: to state, you know, happening. Speaker1: And so different states are at different places. And I'm not in the states anymore, Speaker1: so I don't keep track of all that as fastidiously as I did. Speaker1: I know in Oregon, where I used to live, it is now available legally for clinical Speaker1: use purposes, Colorado as well, and other states that I'm leaving out.
Speaker1: But many of them are also decriminalized, even if they're not yet legal within the clinical setting. Speaker1: The other thing that's happening is that there's still a lot of underground work. Speaker1: And while we've acknowledged that it can be very Wild West, there's also a lot Speaker1: of ethical practitioners who are working underground to avoid all of the bureaucratic Speaker1: slowdown, the bog of bureaucracy.
Speaker0: One thing I wanted to yeah I I'm I'm optimistic Speaker0: in the long run definitely I mean there's always setbacks but Speaker0: that's true of everything in life you know there's always Speaker0: you know in every movie the bad guys keep closing in until they're finally overcome Speaker0: but one thing I wanted to ask you as we kind of draw closer to an end here is Speaker0: I think that you know maybe not on an individual but on a collective basis,
Speaker0: the world is a whole lot has been Speaker0: a whole lot more traumatic the last four years than it was previously. Speaker0: And so I'm, I think, and so I'm curious if you're seeing a change.
Speaker0: I've asked a lot of people this question, but I'm curious if you've seen a change Speaker0: in trends, people that you're working with, obviously without breaking confidentiality, Speaker0: but if you've seen a shift in people, Speaker0: you know, post COVID with wars now happening, we'd have been in war for three Speaker0: years in multiple places in the world has have you have you seen a shift in Speaker0: people in response to that.
Speaker1: So a couple of things I'll say. One is when I started my work, Speaker1: almost exclusively, all of my clients were female. Speaker1: At this point, I would say it's almost 50-50. Speaker1: So that to me is like, Speaker1: I think that that's wonderful news because it's like reflective of hopefully Speaker1: a more balanced future in which the emotional weight is not just being worked out within the women, Speaker1: but the men are like participating in that conversation too.
Speaker1: So that's one big change that I've seen. Speaker1: I would also say that there is a, so almost, let's see, if I were to give it Speaker1: a number, my brain doesn't naturally think in numbers. So let me reflect on this a second. Speaker1: I would say, you know, probably 60 to 70% of my clients are parents who are, Speaker1: this is also relevant to what we were talking about before.
Speaker1: So if we're saying that a lot of trauma is the, or I'm saying that a lot of Speaker1: trauma is the byproduct of people not necessarily consciously choosing to parent. Speaker1: And so then not necessarily parenting from that conscious place. Speaker1: We have many more parents, I think now endeavoring to, what does it mean to Speaker1: consciously raise my child? Speaker1: So that gives me hope for the future because that is making for a different reality to come.
Speaker0: That's everything. Yeah. And you think, what do you think the best resources Speaker0: are for people who might be asking that question? Speaker1: About parenting? Yeah. Speaker0: How do you become a conscious parent? Speaker1: Hmm. Well, I think there are lots of organizations who are trying to bring Speaker1: this conversation to the center. One that comes to mind, there's a great organization Speaker1: called Plant, P-L-A-N-T, Parenthood.
Speaker1: And their whole mission is to carry this discussion. Speaker1: And they're just the first one Speaker1: that comes to mind. I'm sure if I pulled through, I can name several more. Speaker1: This is one of the biggest things that I talk in the world about is how do we, Speaker1: you know, consciously be mothers and take on the reparations of the mothers Speaker1: of the generations before us.
Speaker1: So I feel like there are a lot of practitioners who are working in this world Speaker1: that are very mindful that the mental health of the future, like I always think Speaker1: of that quote by Carl Jung, Speaker1: the greatest detriment to the child is the unfulfilled life of the parent. Speaker0: Right. Speaker1: So the more that we heal, the better for our children.
Speaker1: And also from that place, our children, Speaker1: they're going to carry the future and hopefully they'll be better poised to Speaker1: do so because we have lived fulfilled lives and by proxy given them permission to do the same. Speaker0: I'm a huge believer in expressing spiritual goals and scientific language, Speaker0: just to get back to the beginning of this conversation.
Speaker0: And I think that what you just said, you know, Speaker0: when you say that when you talk about epigenetics in that, in that, Speaker0: in that frame, I mean, just to make the pitch to people when it comes to spiritual Speaker0: work or self work, it's like, the things that you are able to heal in yourself, Speaker0: trauma and all of that, that's not just about you, that's now not going to be Speaker0: in the code that you pass down to kids.
Speaker0: If I have that correct, I think that's true, right? I think that's true. Speaker0: Like you can basically fix the software before it's passed on. Speaker1: That's, that's the idea that there's this whole, um, Speaker1: This is the whole idea of what does it mean to be a cycle breaker?
Speaker1: This is a big expression, you know, tossed around in the world of trauma therapy these days, Speaker1: you know, and those cycle breakers are ones who came through a lineage of intergenerational Speaker1: stuff and said, no, I'm done. Speaker1: Like this stops here. And what is it going to be?
Speaker1: How is it going to be different for my kid? And in order to do that requires Speaker1: I not just build a functional life, a successful life on top of what's going Speaker1: on underneath the surface, i.e. Speaker1: My unresolved trauma, but I'm actually going to grieve. Speaker1: I'm going to get mad. Speaker1: I'm going to do a lot of work on myself so that it's out of my system. Speaker1: And by being out of my system, it's not passing on.
Speaker0: I feel that when you, if you make, if we were to make the point to people, Speaker0: essentially, if that's the sales pitch on what spirituality is, Speaker0: now it becomes something totally different from just self introspection, Speaker0: or navel gazing, as people used to call it. Speaker0: That's so, all of a sudden, it's like, now the utility value is clear. Speaker0: And I think that's such a powerful way to put it. And that's also very hopeful
Speaker0: and optimistic. And it's wonderful that many people are having that conversation.
Speaker0: There's one last question I want to ask and it's kind of unrelated to Speaker0: it's not unrelated but it's kind of a left field question and it's more just Speaker0: throwing out something I've been thinking about in the last three years two Speaker0: to three years we very unfortunately as a collective species have had nuclear Speaker0: weapons back on the table because of the war in Ukraine and we had this, Speaker0: i think which we took for granted we had several decades where
Speaker0: that wasn't constantly lurking in people's minds and prior to that it was lurking Speaker0: in everyone's minds and was a huge massive collective trauma for the human race Speaker0: and i think i've thought several times i think deep down like the core level Speaker0: of why at the core of a lot of people's trauma almost everyone's trauma.
Speaker0: And i think particularly one of the reasons why people have been acting increasingly Speaker0: insane in the last three years is nuclear weapons. Speaker0: The fact that you talk about reclaiming one's body at a certain level, Speaker0: life does not belong to us. Speaker0: And I don't mean that in a metaphysical sense. I made it in the sense that somebody Speaker0: in a government somewhere can just push the button.
Speaker0: And now we have to contend with that again. And I think that because we got to reprieve, Speaker0: people aren't used to that and now whole new generations are going Speaker0: to have to kind of work with that and you Speaker0: can see how much that affected the baby boomer generation and Speaker0: how much almost everything they did at some deep level was a reaction to that Speaker0: um anyway so just more not really a question just kind of throwing out thoughts
Speaker0: and curious if you've if you've noticed a shift in that way or if you've had thoughts about that and.
Speaker1: Specifically like in regards to the nuclear weapons Speaker1: not so much directly talking about Speaker1: it in the way that you just did but i Speaker1: i certainly think there's a sense of history repeating like how did we make Speaker1: all this progress and end up sort of back where we were slash totally different Speaker1: like you know to go back to what i was saying before the war on drugs like Like, let's contextualize. Speaker1: When did the war on drugs happen? Oh, hi.
Speaker1: Like, right around the Vietnam War, there was political scandal. Speaker1: There's, like, social upheaval, riots, protests. Speaker1: Does it sound familiar? Like, same, same, but different. Speaker1: I don't know. I wonder about this. I don't mean to sound cavalier, Speaker1: but the way in which life is cyclical, just like the seasons, Speaker1: you know, recur. Like maybe there is some... Speaker1: I don't know, some creation destruction cycle that's inherent to cosmological order.
Speaker1: I'm not sure. Maybe. Maybe. Speaker0: Yeah. Speaker1: Maybe. Speaker0: Interesting. Well, as you know, one thing a lot of people have said to me, Speaker0: you know, particularly I've experienced, it's like when you're working through Speaker0: something like a trauma or something like that, it's not like one and done. Speaker0: It's like you'll think it's done and then it'll come back like three years later
Speaker0: so that you have to assess the situation again. And that may happen again and again. Speaker1: Yeah, I don't remember who said it, but there's like, maybe it was Rumi or one Speaker1: of those very wise poets. Speaker1: But we always return to the same stuff. It's a spiral, not a line. Speaker1: We're returning to it because we can understand it at deeper levels each time we pass, right? Speaker1: So this is why so much of the trauma that I thought I'd figured out presented
Speaker1: itself to me again in motherhood. because I was in a whole different stage of Speaker1: my life, but my stuff was the same stuff. Speaker1: My vantage point to understand it was wildly transformed. Speaker0: That makes perfect sense. Yeah, I'm a big believer in the kind of spiral model. Speaker0: I think it's the most healthy, mentally healthy model to look at life because Speaker0: otherwise it feels like you're never making progress. And I think that it's true.
Speaker0: You know, it's like even back in the Chaldean oracles, say god is Speaker0: god is he with a spiral force so i'm Speaker0: a big i'm a big believer in that well this has been an awesome conversation Speaker0: i think we covered some i think we covered some really important territory and Speaker0: i think the listeners will really enjoy it but please tell people where to get Speaker0: your book and find out more about you or if i don't know if you work with people
Speaker0: online but definitely let people know about that if you do. Speaker1: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me. And yes, thank you for a challenging Speaker1: and wide, expansive conversation from Barbie to nuclear weapon. Speaker0: Well, that's just like the Barbenheimer thing. You know, we didn't talk about Speaker0: the Oppenheimer movie, but for some reason, those things are linked in my mind, at least. Speaker1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So yes, thank you for having me.
Speaker1: And folks can find me at my website, which is micastoverconsulting.com. Speaker1: I have a newsletter that usually comes out at least once a month, give or take. Speaker1: And so you can sign up for my newsletter there to stay in touch in a more intimate way. Speaker1: Also, people can find me on Instagram. My handle there is Micah Sugarfoot. Speaker1: And the book is available on Amazon. It's called Healing Psychedelics by I'm Micah Stover.
Speaker1: It's for pre-order right now, but as of November 4th, we'll be available in print and audio. Speaker1: So thank you so much. Speaker0: Thank you. That was great. I really appreciated that. Magic.me is waiting for you.
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Speaker0: because that's what we need most of all. You at your best. Speaker0: All right. Magic.me. M-A-G-I-C-K.me. Lots of love. See you next time.