A Moscow car bomb and Putin’s telethon

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Hello, it's 1399 days since Russia began its full-scale invasion of Ukraine. We want to say thank you because we have been overwhelmed by all the messages you have been sending us. in the last seven days or so. And well what can I say? I'm I'm genuinely humbled. I'm gonna read some names of you who've written in because we appreciate it so much. But let me read this one from Guy Woodland who's in Norfolk here in the UK.

Uh this is just a an extract from his email. I've been a regular listener to the podcast since it began. The reporting is exceptional and the educational value incalculable. The podcast still has an important role to play. I'd like to thank the whole team for all their hard work over nearly four years. Your professionalism and humanity are an example to all broadcasters, wishing you all the best for the future and a Merry Christmas.

Guy, thank you so much for that. Uh there's Andy in Shropshire and Daniel Ross and Paul Anderson in Queensland on the Gold Coast, Nick in Flanders, Mary Cracknell, Christine, Tim Kelling Gateshead So many of you contacted us and we are really grateful and it really moves us as well. David in Edinburgh. Keith in County Down. I could go on and on and on. I'm not gonna read everybody's name. I just wanted to thank our listeners. Um

Yeah, well some of them have helped me personally, helped uh evacuate my family from eastern Ukraine. Thank you, Richard. That's true. Thanks to many others whose names I don't even know, but they have helped. I've I've I've made quite a few friends along the journey. Hallo Jakob in Prague. Um yeah. Uh it's it's been quite a journey. It's been humbling.

ac mae'n ei wneud. Rydym ni'n ei wneud. Rydym ni'n ei wneud. Rydym ni'n ei wneud. Rydym ni'n ei wneud. Rydym ni'n ei wneud. Rydym ni'n ei wneud. Rydym ni'n ei wneud. Rydym ni'n ei wneud. Rydym ni'n ei wneud. when Russian television interviewed our very own Steve Rosenberg at Vladimir Putin's annual press conference. Only it wasn't him. This is Ukraine cast. Ukraine cast from BBC News. This is a

Under unprovoked attack. We are ready to finish this war as quick as possible. Russia is not preparing for peace. We are an enemy of NATO and will do whatever is necessary to ensure our security. I don't love it. I don't like it when that happens. Could be big This is a game changer for Ukraine and for the European security.

Hello, this is Victoria Derbyshire in the BBC Radio Van. And this is Vitaly Shevchenko in the Ukraine Car Studio. And you have got, I think, James Waterhouse with you, Vitali. That's correct. Here he is. Hello everyone. Hi. Uh our Ukraine correspondent, of course. And in Moscow, Steve Rosenberg is with us, our Russia editor. Hi, Steve. Hello there. Hi.

We're gonna start with the killing yesterday of a Russian general in Moscow. Who was he and what happens to you? Yeah, the third Russian general to have been uh killed in Moscow in the last twelve months or so. Lieutenant General Fanil Sarvarov. Um he was the head of the uh operational training directorate of the Russian General Staff, um so quite a senior figure.

Uh he came out of his apartment block, got into his car, started driving off, and a car bomb which had been hidden uh under the vehicle was detonated, basically turning the car into sort of a mangled wreck. the general wasn't killed immediately, but he was critically wounded and then died later uh from his injuries. So when I went down to the scene

The whole area had been sort of cordoned off, there were investigators um looking at the wreckage, lots of police. What was interesting for me was j was to speak to people, speak to local residents. Because a year ago when General Igor Kirillov was blown up by a bomb hidden in an electric scooter, uh and I chatted to people who lived in the apartment block and nearby. There was a real sense of shock that this kind of thing could happen on their doorstep in Moscow.

When I chatted to people after this attack, it wasn't so much much a sense of shock, but kind of sort of tired resignation. So one man said to me, Well, you know, what do you expect? There's a war on. And a woman said to me When is this going to end? Uh and I don't know how it's going to end. And I think after nearly four years of Russia's war on Ukraine, I think There is this sense of resignation. People don't know when it's gonna end.

How quickly the Russians suggested that Ukraine is behind this attack. Within hours, Svetlana Petrenko, the spokeswoman for the Russian investigations committee, she said various versions are being considered, including the Ukrainian one. And to me it suggests that the the the authorities in Moscow they're not really, you know, embarrassed by uh Ukraine's apparent ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud So this might be the SBU Ukraine's

security service potentially behind this assassination? James, tell us about uh about about the SBU. Well, Ukraine security service are have bec become quite efficient, haven't they, at at launching Sophisticated targeted strikes overseas. You know, last week they were claiming to have targeted another ship from Russia's ghost fleet in the Mediterranean off the coast of Greece, marking, you know, a n a very much an uh an escalation or a or a new frontier certainly.

in this war and they have claimed such attacks in the past and for Ukraine there is a psychological element here. You have very powerful military officers. Being killed in the heart of Moscow. Now, to what extent that disrupts military operations, I think is up for debate. Um but it's a double edged sword for Ukraine as well. Just hearing Steve there talking about the impact it has on residents, it also feeds into the Kremlin's claim that they are under threat. From Ukraine, from the West.

Um but nevertheless it's it's an operation, it's a strategy, it's a tactic that Ukraine has been not just happy to to continue, but have got pretty good at as well. When you say they've claimed such attacks, of course they haven't done it officially. Uh as a matter of policy they never do, but they tell journalists Uh without giving you know, the the names and the uh positions of people who are

Uh issuing these statements that it's it's them, that Is B U's done it, but it's sources, not not officials. Well they yeah, they excitedly send pictures and you know, I I think in you know I think they're very pleased with ac mae'n rhywbeth sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n

Um yes, uh about six hundred drones, uh about thirty missiles. Yet again it's the Ukrainian energy system that was the primary targets. Uh at least three regions in Ukraine have been left without almost completely without electricity to quote the Ukrainian um energy minister. Um elsewhere across Ukraine, electricity rationing has been introduced. Um at the moment of speaking, uh shortly after one o'clock London time.

uh on Tuesday, uh three people have been confirmed dead, one a four year old girl, and the other two are older than seventy, um in Odessa local port's been hit again, uh a civilian cargo ship and the Ukrainian authorities are saying that this is the ninth massive attack this year targeting Ukraine's energy system.

Okay, let's move on to a pretty major annual event in Russia which took place on Friday. And Steve, you were there. Remind our listeners what the direct line is. Well, uh there used to be two major Putin events every year. One was Direct Line, which was a kind of a marathon called the president kind of show. And the other one was the end of year press conference that Vladimir Putin gave. Now both events have been sort of merged into one, so you get this bumper press conference come Putin phonem.

which takes place in December and I went along to it, yes. You need to have a good breakfast before you go in because it lasts a long time, so four and a half hours. And President Putin answered maybe sort of eighty questions uh in that time or seventy seven questions, something like that. Yeah, it's always a stage for for Vladimir Putin to kind of present his world view.

uh and also kind of style himself as this kind of father of the nation type figure who's sorting out people's problems.'Cause the thing is, you know, the whole system in Russia is built around one man, Vladimir Putin. And so if you've got a problem in your village, if they're closing down the local maternity hospital and the local officials aren't doing anything about it,

what you do, you call Putin. Or if the pipes are rusty, or if the road's got potholes, then you write a message to Vladimir Putin. So he uses the event to try to present himself as this kind of, you know, all powerful father figure of of the country. How successful he was, you know, we can dis we can discuss that. But um it's certainly seen as an important event by the Kremlin.

And Vitali, obviously your day job is to monitor Russian media. Um how how successful did Russian state media think this event was this year? Well it was one of many that uh I've seen over the years and I was joking with colleagues here in the office that we could possibly draft Vladimir Putin's answers for him in advance because we knew what he was going to say. uh on Ukraine of course he he blamed Ukraine for unleashing this war. He accused uh Europe of uh using Ukraine to attack Russia.

The only thing that was different from the past years, and again it wasn't really surprising, was the fact that America was not portrayed as as an enemy. It seems that Uh it's it's it's Europe that's taking place of uh Russia's enemy number one. It's a very carefully stage managed event. But at the background they have these massive screens.

where they showed questions sent in by members of the public apparently un uncensored and and there were some really, really c critical questions, things like Uh um you know, our standards of living are declining and yet the ruling party keeps winning. Are elections fake by any chance? Vladimir Punia never answered those questions, but even that bit could be carefully choreographed to give an impression that

uh, you know, he's in touch with the pe he's not afraid to see those questions. People have uh an opportunity to ask those questions.

And Steve was able to ask a question. Let's have a listen. Какое будущее вы планируете, вы строите? So the the question I asked, which hadn't been pre approved, was what kind of future are you planning, are you creating for Russia? In the future that you're building will the hunt for enemies, internal and external, continue? Will more critics be yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r

You said in the past, Mr President, that our future depends on us, in other words on everyone. But since you're the most powerful person in the country, basically all the power in Russia is in your hands, so is the future. So what's the future going to be? Interestingly, in Russian television reporting afterwards, that question was summarized, was cut down to, I have a question about the future, will there be more special military operations?

The the rest of it, about prosecutions and search for enemies, that was all cut out. But the question went out live. So the question was about the future. In his response, which lasted about nine and a half minutes, there was wasn't much about the future of Russia. But there was a lot about resentment about NATO expansion. There was a lot about criticism of European leaders.

Uh his resentment really came through, that's built up over the years. He believes that Russia has been duped, sort of deceived, by the West. and that uh you know Russia's not responsible for what's going on, it's the fault of the West and the and and and Europe. So that shone through in his response. Oh, I don't want to comment on that. And then duly commented on it and basically supported Donald Trump. And James, uh President Putin said we're ready to cease hostilities immediately.

Provided that Russia's medium and long term security is ensured and we are ready to cooperate with you. H how might that be being seen by leaders across Europe? I think as far as Europe's concerned it's a message to America. Um that's what Europe is concerned about. And the vibe I got, granted from from further away, was that Vladimir Putin certainly i isn't

interested at the moment in taking his foot off the pedal to use a a a a Stephen allergy. He is clearly still looking to pursue his aims. The politics of his invasion have not changed. And I think with these ongoing p US led P s You're looking at this with with this Vladimir Putin press conference. You're looking at the variable which needs to change, the cog in this democratic machine. Will Vladimir Putin eventually want to stop fighting? Or will he be forced?

to stop fighting, either through external pressure or through uh unsustainable losses. Until that changes Going in this loop and I think you know I was looking for for any glint of of a change of stance and I did not see one. There's been a lot of discussion about whether Vladimir Putin was offering some kind of olive branch. in his response to me when he said that um he's willing to cooperate with Europe and European leaders.

if they respect Russia. The problem here is that the the same week of the press conference he also referred to European leaders who support Ukraine as little piggies. So on the one hand he's talking about cooperation, on the other hand, he's talking very condescendingly about those people who are supporting Ukraine. And I think that he is sticking to maximalist demands on Ukraine.

And if u European leaders were to accept those demands uh of Vladimir Putin, then he would be happy, I think, to build a relationship with them. But at the moment uh it's difficult to see how that's possible. There was a nice a nice moment. I'm putting that in inverted commas, Steve. i i in President Putin's answer to you, where he paused to acknowledge that he wasn't blaming you personally for the actions of the West, which he seemed to find vaguely amusing.

Вы создали, ну не вы лично, конечно, западные политические деятели, создали сегодняшнюю ситуацию. Yes, that's nice. That's nice to know that I'm not responsible for um for what's going on. Very often, you know, a as a BBC correspondent here. uh y when you interview or you speak to Russian officials, you know, they say, you in the West, you Westerners and you feel like they're y you know, you are the embodiment of the West, of the evil West.

Uh so yes, very nice of Vladimir Putin to to point out that he doesn't blame me personally for um for what's happening. Просто спросим хотя бы. Стив, здравствуйте. Добрый день. Скажите, пожалуйста, это какая уже прямая линия? Какая пресс-конференция с Владимиром? Не первая. Не первая. What's up?

That was bizarre, Victoria. So that was Russia Channel One doing a live interview. with Steve Rosenberg, uh except it wasn't Steve Rosenberg that she went up to. It was a Russian journalist, a Russian war correspondent who was standing there, and she went up to him and said, Steve and he and he responded to that and said yes.

And she said, you know, um, uh is this your first uh Vladimir Putin press conference? He said, Oh no, I've been to to t to several. And that was it. And then she said, Well Steve's you see Steve's had the chance to ask questions in the past. But it wasn't me. There you go. Well I suppose everybody makes mistakes, you know. Um I don't know what the Russian word for blooper is, but that was a classic one. Right. And you think it was genuinely inadvertent. There wasn't a d an attempt to sort of

pull the wool over the eyes of people watching. I d I don't think so because it wasn't a very detailed interview. I mean all she asked was you know, was this your first Vladimir Putin press conference? That was it. Maybe at that point she realised or she was told in her ear that, oops, that wasn't that's not Steve Rosenberg.'Cause actually, after the press conference, lots of Russian T V crews did come up to me, the real one.

uh and ask my reaction. You know, are you satisfied with the President's response? What do you think of what the President said? Are you pleased that you have the opportunity to ask the President a question? How do you answer all that? I mean obviously you have to be of as as neutral and diplomatic as you are on this podcast. Is is that what you are like when you're asked to do that?

questions by Russian journos. I've said before that you know, every day y I get out of bed it's like walking a tightrope, right? And in everything I do. And it's also when you're surrounded by lots of Russian T V crews. When they put you on the spot. They say, Well, you have the chance to ask Vladimir Putin a question. Why don't our journalists in the UK have a chance to ask your Prime Minister a question?

So you have to be very diplomatic and um also you have to get out of the hall because we had so much material to edit and very little time to do it before the evening news. And literally I mean there were so many crews coming up to us asking questions. What's interesting, the last thing I'd say is that very often Russian officials claim that they don't care what the West thinks about Russia. They don't care. They'll just do their own thing.

But actually I get the impression that they do actually care what we think sometimes, uh, about what's being said, what's being done. I mean every day on Russian state television there's a block, like a forty minute block of news about what the Western media is saying about Russia. So as I say, uh you know, it's good that I had access to the event. It's great that I had the chance to ask a question.

President Putin, so I can't really complain about access. You know, we're still, despite the anti-Western rhetoric, we're still given access to these events.

Okay, now on to Europe and its efforts to help Ukraine. As our listeners will know, for for weeks there have been discussions about the this huge pot of money, Russian money, held in Europe. At the moment these assets are frozen, meaning that they still belong to Russia technically speaking, but Russia can't use them. And the original plan proposed by the likes of Friedrich Merz of of Germany was to

Finally use that money to secure a massive loan to Ukraine. Now that didn't quite work out, did it, Jeff? It did not. I think there are two ways to look at this. I was at the European Commission last week where you had the choreograph Walks on the red carpet as the world leaders arrived, and what was immediately apparent was division. You know, this was not a harmonious conference.

Ultimately Ukraine left with the ninety billion euros it wanted. It needed. Which is better than nothing. It's two it covers two thirds of a gaping hole in its finances over the next two years. It hopes other allies outside of Europe will make up the rest to allow it to keep functioning and to keep fighting as a country.

Those frozen Russian assets were not used, but they remain frozen. So that's one way to look at it. The other way to look at it is that the cracks really are starting to widen from within Ukraine's most immediate neighbours as to how to help Ukraine. you had countries like Belgium, which it turned out weren't

bluffing over their nervousness of the of the using the assets in this way. The Prime Minister, uh Bart de Weaver, he was under huge pressure domestically. Belgians you spoke to in Brussels, they were really nervous about Belgium being liable for having to pay Russia back because it's where most of the money is held, and the money in question is almost, you know, a third of its annual GDP. Belgium is not a big country.

Belgium was joined by other countries opposing this idea, like Italy, like Malta, like Bulgaria, but then you also had the pro Russian countries, like Hungary, with the Prime Minister Viktor Orban, like Slovakia. like Czech here now, um, who didn't want anything to do with this deal. So they were n not involved at all.

So it was a very complicated democratic exercise. They have a a press conference in the small hours to announce this loan was to be provided but from increased borrowing. Just the final thing, the thing that really stuck with me is Emmanuel Macron with France. said in the small hours we need more direct dialogue with Russia. And that

I think is a a marked change in tactic. And I suspect this is France, where clearly it's reluctant to to some extent as to as to what it can provide Ukraine in European security. I think it's also Europe trying to gain prominence. with America. They're not having much luck with Donald Trump and getting him to commit more in the long term. So why doesn't Europe increase its own value by engaging with the Kremlin? Does that mean that Europe's um running out of options that it's uh

giving up its previous strategy of what, about four years, of not talking to Vladimir Putin because the previous thinking was well there's no point. He insists on attacking Ukraine. Sorry, if we go back four years Emmanuel Macron was on the phone to President Putin, do you remember? Before the full scale invasion to try to convince him and obviously it didn't work.

But the idea that President Putin needs to talk to Immanuel Macron or Keir Starmer or whoever, I mean he really doesn't. He just goes over their heads to Donald Trump, doesn't he? Yeah. I was at this sort of this security conference the other week where you had a load of military analysts and they were giving their forecasts for next year. next year. And I sort of in small talk asked what levers did they think Europe could pull

to pull America back in line, to show it was willing. And by the time I'd finished asking my question, they just said, None. Europe is running out of money as to how to support Ukraine and in a military sense it is still despite the pledges of trillions of

pounds to be spent over the over the coming decades it is still hugely dependent on America's military might and not least its intelligence capabilities. To put things into perspective, uh okay Ukraine got ninety billion euros for the next Two years. which is good for Ukraine because it was running out of money and it would probably have none by next spring. But Russia's annual spending on its military

This year was somewhere in the region of 130 billion euros. So the fact is that Russia is spending much, much more in its military.

Um right, more talks over the weekend in Miami. Who were they involving? So we had S Steve Witkoff, the now e extremely prominent US envoy hosting uh his Ukrainian counterpart, Rustum Umerov, where they talked about what we're gathering from Kyiv, several new draft documents. It seems to be centering around a twenty point plan, a peace plan. which we're told has mentions of US security guarantees as well as a plan for economic prosperity inside Ukraine, but it's the detail we still

lack as to what America is willing to commit militarily, what deterrent America is willing to provide. President Zelensky said in Brussels a few days ago I want to know what America would do if Russia invaded again and I still don't know that. And I think that is clearly unresolved from the talks over the weekend. And then we saw Mr Whitcoff host

Kirill Dmitriev, his Russian counterpart, where we gather there were more negotiations. But again, we talk about the Russian variable here. You know, you hear from the Kremlin that they don't suspect this this latest draft will Change their position at all. I've got a PubQuist question for you, James. Uh oh. Russia remains fully committed to achieving peace in Ukraine. Who said that?

It was Steve Whitcoff. Amazing. Give me a chance. I wouldn't have got that. Right. Yeah, so it gives us an idea of what sort of negotiations those were. Steve Whitkov does sound like he is very much aligned with the Russians. Voltimar Zelensky speaking yesterday on Monday, he said that the security guarantees that he's getting from the Americans are beginning to look and I quote decent.

Quite what security guarantees he has been given, we don't know. The issue of whether Ukraine will be forced by the Americans and Russians to give up territory in exchange for some promise of peace. Uh that's very much unresolved. And last night's massive attack on Ukraine just shows that Russia is well, it has no less appetite for

Attacking Ukraine. And and just on the the point of security guarantees, I think to try and simplify things, right?'Cause there's there are all kinds of proposals. I think if you're Ukraine, you either want American weaponry and boots on the ground. Boots on the ground is not gonna happen. If you're not going to get that and you look at where Europe is seriously lacking

then Ukraine I would imagine will start looking to to to bolster its own military and and and gain commitments and assurances in that regard. If you're not going to get the former, that is Ukraine's only option I think, in in terms of implementing a ceasefire they can believe. Steve, I don't know if you know the answer to this, but um Peskov was calling for the spirit of anchorage to be respected. What what do we think that means?

Oh, that's a difficult one, isn't it? I o one thing I hope that um Grandfather Frost, you know, the Russian Father Christmas brings me for New Year is a dictionary of Kremlin phraseology. uh perhaps spirit of anchorage will be will be in there. I think what he means is Based on what Vladimir Putin has said about the Alaska Summit, he has indicated or claimed that uh there was some agreement reached with Donald Trump. about some compromise some Vladimir Putin claimed.

Uh that he s he told Donald Trump would be d a difficult decision for the Russians, but he was prepared to make it. No details about that. But when the Russians talk about spirit of Anchorage, they seem to indicate that there was some understanding with the Trump administration about how to move forward, and that at some point after Anchorage, that spirit sort of disappeared. Basically the Russians feel confident at the moment and uh they feel confident enough to kind of push

their version of peace, which would be peace on on on Russia's terms. You were talking about the cracks appearing in Europe. That is fuelling Moscow's confidence. the situation on the battlefield where Russia has been making slow progress, but progress has been fueling Russia's confidence, and having Donald Trump in the White House, an American president who

criticizes liberal democracy, isn't lecturing Russia on democracy. That is fueling Moscow's confidence too. For all these reasons I think Vladimir Putin feels confident enough to stick to the demands he's been making. In his press conference he referred to his so called peace plan of june twenty twenty four, and these were real maximalist demands, demanding that Ukrainian troops pull out of all those four uh regions.

Steve, thank you very much, as always. I wish you uh a a calm Christmas. I'll put it like that, shall I? Goodbye. Happy New Year to all of you. And James, thank you. Thanks, Vic. Thank you very much. We will speak soon. Starting the year strong is easier and more delicious with Omaha Steaks premium prepackaged protein.

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In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau. Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

Okay, Leah in Lincoln here in the UK has this question, Vitali. I learned recently from an Advent quiz that Ukrainian families traditionally have 12 courses when sitting down to enjoy Christmas dinner. Is this accurate? And if so, what do they have? Well, it varies, Leah. And also we need to remember that For the past few decades of its existence.

Ukrainians uh well, many of them were not particularly well off. To have twelve courses on their table for Christmas, well, you'd have to be well, reasonably wealthy. Which wasn't the case for me. Uh we definitely didn't have twelve courses on our on our table in uh the desperately poor ninety nine. But traditionally that is correct. You have twelve courses for the number of uh the apostles. The the actual courses they they vary regionally, uh

Of course, uh Kutya, the the you know, uh cereal or rice in in sweet water was supposed to be there. Everything else um that you can associate with the Ukrainian cuisine was also there. Borosh. Vareneki, but it kind of depended on

And can you let us know if you will be going to Ukraine soon? Obviously you have not been able to go since February twenty twenty two. I'm hoping to Victoria. I'm hoping to go there uh early next year and it is going to be Well, a massive homecoming. Um yeah, look forward to it. Yeah, it's gonna be very, very emotional. So, Vitali, you and I will speak in twenty twenty six on this podcast, and so I am saying this next sentence, not for the last time.

Wherever you are listening in the world, take care. Goodbye. See you again. Ukraine costs. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories.

I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau. Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.