Hello and welcome to another UK column interview. My name is Debbie Evans, and for those of you that don't know me, I'm a retired state registered nurse, old school, and I was a government advisor for the Department of Health for five years. And even though I'm a retired nurse and my experience is nursing humans, I also love animals and I love plants and I love wildlife.
And we all need to eat, right? It doesn't matter whether we're meat eaters or whether we're plant eaters or vegans, vegetarians, whatever you eat, we all need to eat. However, how safe is our food? And we've been talking a lot on UK column about One Health and I just want to read this out so that you get this accurately. That's one Health impacts all of US1 Health is a collaboration of multiple disciplines working together globally, nationally and locally.
This is in order to obtain optimal health for people, animals and the environment, and the environment includes plants as defined by the one Health task force. Now animals are a great of of great interest to many of you watching and I'm always delighted to be able to speak to Roger Meacock, who is pretty much our resident now consultant veterinary surgeon. And he really is one-of-a-kind. He's known to us as the gentle vet, the last chance vet.
Roger sees animals that perhaps established medicine has failed or they've just come to the end of the line. And his practice, Natural healing Solutions really should tell you all you need to know about Roger. And he has experience treating humans as well. And we've had many previous interviews with Roger. And for those of you that haven't seen them to go back and look, the article links will be, I'm sorry, the links will be in
the article beneath this. But for those of you that haven't seen it and want to go straight to it, we've got an interview mRNA in animals, the gentle vet who roars Rogers also been talking to us about big pharma as in PHARMA and small farmer as in FARMER and another interview fit as a butcher's dog. So there's plenty on the website for you to go and look at so that you can get a feel of where
Rogers coming from. But in the light of the recent farmers protests that Mike Robinson and Bryan Gerrish went to in London, I thought it was perfect timing when out of the blue, Roger rang me just the other day and said, I think something's brewing and I think there's something we need to talk about. And we did, and we're going to come to that later on in the interview.
But for now, I thought, let's start at the farmers protests and welcome, Roger, thank you so much for agreeing to join us again, because I know you've always got your finger on the pulse. Say hello to everybody and perhaps give us a little brief introduction. Hi, Debbie. Hi, everybody. Yes, brief introduction to me, I've been a vet for something years and for the last 25 plus of those, I've been pretty well exclusively working using complementary alternative
techniques. So I sort of take on, as Debbie says, there's sort of cases where everybody is maybe struggling or giving up or they've been given not a lot of hope or they just want a more natural approach to, to treatment. So I tend to work on trying to cure disease rather than rather than suppressing symptoms. And of course, cure is a bit of a dirty word when it comes to pharma because, you know, a cured patient is no longer a
customer. So yeah, that's, that's basically where where I come from. I started off as a farm vet when I first qualified conventionally and I still, you know, I still love, love the farming side of, of what I used to do. Although I don't really do a lot of farm work now. I sort of see a couple of cows on, on my fare, my family friendly John's Dairy, Dora's Dairy, where I get my raw milk and, and John, the farmer there has done some programs with the UK column as well.
And so occasionally I do still treat a few cows and calves and things for John when when I'm picking up my raw milk. So I have this affinity to farming that sort of drove me really to, to go up to London on Tuesday and support the farmers and lend my voice and support to their demonstration over the inheritance tax. And it was interesting being
there really. And the one thing that sort of I picked up on really struck me was that that doesn't seem too much grasp, but what's actually happening is deliberate ploy. And maybe the farmers were giving the government a face saving way out to reverse their their decision over the inheritance tax by saying it was a miscalculation of figures and and all that sort of thing. But I actually don't believe
it's a miscalculation at all. I think they've got every intention to do what they're trying to do. They're trying to, they're trying to get rid of small farmers. They want large farms, they want industrial farming, they want monoculture. They want to push everybody towards plant based eating, which is a carnival myself that just doesn't fit. And I think that there's more to it than, than is often presented. And we, we know this really, you
know, from many, many angles. We've, we've come across the whole rewilding idea of what they want to do to the UK. We know that they, they want to put wind farms and solar farms on the, on the farmland and, you know, instead of producing food, which is what it should be being produced for.
And, and, and there's been sort of came back and watched a few videos on YouTube and there was a one professor of economics was saying how actually it was, it was, it was beneficial to the farmers because it would, it would drive the, the price of lamb down and that would be good. And then the people wouldn't want to use it as a tax dodge.
And that's all very well. And there was an element of truth in what he said, but there's a big but, and that is the farmers, if they don't got the land value, they've got nothing to borrow against when they want to buy their half £1,000,000 worth of combined harvester. So they need a certain value in the land in order to be able to to borrow against it, to be able to carry on farming.
And also if the price of land drops, then of course it's going to be a lot cheaper for the corporations to buy up and put their wind farms and solar farms and everything else on. So. And we've also heard from Sandy Adams in the past how you know the certainly for, for Somerset that you know, they've got 0 provision for farming in the future. So there there is definitely a bigger agenda here than just the inheritance tax.
And as as I think there was a Question Time in Parliament yesterday and the government were challenged as to whether they would freeze the inheritance tax as a minimum guarantee and they wouldn't do that. So what starts off at 50% of inheritance tax will creep up and up and up and up and, and before we know it, they'll decide that's not enough either. And they'll be putting a land tax on the farms. So, you know, this is a slippery
slope. And, you know, we need to see, see it for what it is. We know the agendas that are coming through from the United Nations. We know the climate agenda and all the rest of it. And this is all part of that bigger picture that we really need to be aware of and seeing what's coming on down the road. Roger, everything that you've said that actually echoes pretty much what Brian Gerrish and Mike Robinson have said previously as they went to the farmers protests too.
And what you've said I think is quite concerning. In effect, what I guess we're suggesting, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that perhaps the farmers have missed the point and because they're not seeing the bigger agenda, the agenda from the WEF, you will own nothing, right? I mean, everything's going to be apparently seized, including land. So does it seem to you as though the farmers need a basic, a basic, I guess, bringing them up to date, which is where we have got to today.
And what has what has been announced previously that's got us to where we are? Because I feel as though the farmers, from what I'm hearing from people at the protest, don't quite know what action to take. And because they're focusing straight on the inheritance tax, they're missing everything else. What can we do to galvanized farmers and to try to help them understand the bigger picture?
Yeah, good question, Debbie. And it's difficult because obviously one of the things about farming, it's a way of life and it starts at 5 O clock, silly O clock in the morning and it goes through till silly O clock the following morning. You know, by the time there's no such thing as a nine to five in
a farming job. You know, even even when you think you've finished and you've, you've put the cows headed them down for the night and you go in, you have your tea, then there's another check to do after that. And if there's a cow carving, think she's probably going to be all right, there's another check to do after that. And by then you might decide she's not actually getting on with it and you need to intervene and help her to carve.
Or maybe it needs to Cesaro, you need to get the vet out. You know, there was various times when I was a farm, but where you, there were sort of danger periods, if you like, when, when sort of the out of hours when I was on duty. And it would sort of be after the farms after the farm had finished milking because he'd he'd been too busy milking to stop. So he'd sort of separated a cow out and put her on her own to have a check off. We'd finished milking. So if, if, if she he decided she
needed seeing at that point. That was your first danger point of being called out in the evening. And then there was probably another one sort of ten, 11:00 at night. And then there was probably another danger point sort of midnight to 1:00 in the morning. So, you know, the farmers are working around the clock and to be fair to them, they they probably haven't had the opportunity to to delve into things in in perhaps the same way that that the rest of us have delved into.
And you know, if they're listening to to Radio 4 or something on the on on in their tractors, then now they're going to be getting the BBC narrative as well. So I don't think it's surprising that a lot of the farmers haven't latched onto the bigger picture and they're feeling so, so much under threat. Maybe it's somewhere they don't
particularly want to go either. But but but you know, we do need to be aware of of what's going on and we do need to educate the farmers somehow to, you know, to realize that there is this bigger agenda United Nations and packed for the future and, and all, you know, and Prince John, King Charles's plans for the UK
and, and these aren't new plans. You know, they don't, they date back to United Nations many years, you know, 70s, eighties, 90s, where they, they started, you know, talking about how they wanted to, to rewild countries. I don't know the exact figures for the UK, but if they mirror, if they mirror what's going on in the what's planned for the US, which wouldn't surprise me.
Then we're looking at something like a 25% of the country being rewilded by 20-30 and 50% of the country being rewilded by 2050. And then the people being kept corralled into 25% of the land mass with a, with a effective buffer area of the of the remaining 25%. So you know that that is certainly what is on the cards. And we look to see what's happening in the States and Bill Gates have brought up huge tracts of of farmland there as well.
So, you know, it is, there's definitely a much bigger agenda. It's been going on a lot longer. And somehow we do need to, to, to, to get farmers educated. And back in the summer I did a talk down in, in Devon for, for some farmers down there. We was primarily on climate. But I, it does does actually, I think it hit me actually how useful having a face to face
meetings are. And possibly if, if farmers are there in the having an evening talk somewhere, then that's when they're probably going to engage more because they can't get distracted by anything else as to worry about what the, what, what the cow that they've checked is doing in the, you
know, outside as well too. So we know we do need to support our farmers and, and you know, as if, if they do what, what has been talked about in terms of supplying the public direct and not supplying the supermarkets to try and, you know, make the government see sense over the inheritance tax issue, then you know, people need to be supporting their local farmers. And, you know, go, go and buy locally. You'll, you'll be amazed at the quality of the food that they're
producing. And and that's, that's the best we can do is to support them and try and have a engagement conversation and have a chat with them and, you know, let them know that there is a bigger picture. I absolutely hear you. And I think it, I think it's very important that that we do hear that message from people like you, Roger, of how hard the farmer's life is and that it is
24 hours. And as you as you were talking about, I was writing a few things down because of course, they're under intense scrutiny and pressure with Defra. So they have them to negotiate. Often they have vets bills and vets visits to pay for and to organize, whether that be in the middle of the night or whenever. And I was shocked actually, at
the cost of farming equipment. I mean, you know, it runs into half a million, a million, you know, easy, easy for for combined harvesters, as you were mentioning before. I was shocked at the price and also the danger that's involved
in farming. I think it's probably, if not the most dangerous profession, it's one of the most dangerous profession because of all the equipment and the danger that's that surrounds it. So I completely get that why farmers may not have picked up on the memo of what we're
seeing. And I know that, you know, here on the UK column, Charles Mallett has done a huge amount of work with some of your colleagues as well, Roger, and some of your contacts on raw milk and, and farming and not just farming in the UK, but farming abroad. And I think I would like to make this interview a specific shout
out. If anybody is watching that knows a farmer or is a farmer or is involved in the movement at all, please come and watch UK Column because we support you and everything that Rogers just said about you need to be providing us directly with the food. Don't send it to Tesco, don't send it to Sainsbury. Any other good supermarket will do. I won't say good and I'll take that word out. Any other supermarket is included.
Sell it to us direct. We will support you, our audience will support you and we need to know where you are. And of course, Roger, that goes to the next question. And many people are going to be watching this and going, well, I'm in the middle of Birmingham, I'm in the middle of Manchester. I'm in the middle of London. Where do I find a farm shop? How can small farmers get to the public easy, more easily if
we're not living in a rural? I mean, I'm very fortunate we have a farmers market once a week locally. So I can go to that and I can pick up fresh, organic local produce, whether that's meat or whether it's fruit, vegetables, whatever. So what happens to people in the city? How can farmers help us and how can we help them? Yeah, good question, Debbie.
I know, you know, cities have expanded and and, you know, sort of in days gone by, the cities weren't that big and they could go out to the countryside and farms were that much closer to be able to supply the bigger cities. But it is a problem. It is a problem and I'm, I mean, some of the farms will have food, you know, do food boxes
which can be sent out. I mean, I, I buy some of my meat from my carnival diet, I'll buy the buy it online in bulk, get a better price and it will be delivered to me on the day that I choose. And it comes sort of semi frozen or, or chilled in packages and, and, and it's fresh and then I can, I can freeze it and use it as I, as I need. So, you know, there are ways around doing it for those who are, you know, maybe not so accessible to go into a farm
shop directly. I've got a sort of vision a bit like, you know, we could replace supermarkets with, with something equivalent sized building. But it isn't a supermarket run by a company. It is a collection of local producers within the one space. So people have the advantage of going in a bit. It is exactly the same as a farmers market, but they tend to be outside, don't they, farmers markets.
What we do need is we need sort of a chain of, of warehouses around the around the countryside, around the whole country where local farmers basically just sell or local butchers. They have, they have one sort of corner of it and, and, and it's sort of, you know, an amalgamation of, of local produce rather than something that shipped in from the other side of the world. So, and actually, they are, you know, the healthiest food we can eat is what's produced locally for us.
And there's there's good scientific reasons why that is, you know, getting these tropical fruits in the middle of the winter is actually not good for us for. It increases the the deuterium, the heavy hydrogen that we that we get in the body when our body is at a time of year we can't and get rid of it in quite the same way.
So there are health reasons why local produce is is the best produce produce that we can we can buy and and eat at in season without getting it shipped all around the world. So, you know, there are we need we need to be keeping UK production to be able to support UKUK health.
And it is it's that fundamental. So, you know, it's just so important that we support our farmers and you know, and recognize the job that they do. And as you say, you know, there are dangers around farms that I remember when I was a student and before we went out on to farm experiences and things, we got shown, you know, health and safety film about hazards on a farm because of all the potential and situations we might be in when we were students and we were going to
get farm experience. And then later on, obviously we got we got experience, you know, it's been reside on farms and things as well. So, you know, there are hazards there that they just got to deal with. And you know the idea. I saw a great meme on Facebook yesterday. Obviously we had a bit of snow around the country yesterday and you hear about schools closing down, which never used to happen in our day. You know, we'd go along and have a great big snowball fight at
play time. And it was great fun. And nobody, nobody got badly hurt. You know, everybody might got wet, but that was probably and cold a bit. But that was the worst that happened to us. And there was a great man that said, you know, new breaking news farmers working through the snow, you know, because it doesn't matter what the weather is that the animals still need feeding or milking or saying to checking some of some of the field jobs may not be possible
when the weather is bad. But there's always something to do around a farm. And it is that it's a, it's a complete lifestyle. And that was why I went into being a form vet when I first started because I, I enjoyed that out outside lifestyle and, and feeling that I was part of a business as well. You know, the farmers weren't just clients to me. They were my friends.
I saw them on a regular basis. They probably didn't want to see me necessarily as often as they did, but you know, certainly on the dairy side, we were doing a lot of routine visits to try and help keep productivity as carving patterns tight and
things like that. So you know, you when you when you're there on a regular basis and you know, for an hour or two at a time doing doing certain jobs, then you know, you get to have all the conversations and the farmers become your friends as much as as much as he clients. And that was that was the sort of aspects of veterinary life,
but I enjoyed. And then when I sort of went down, the alternative field didn't really lend itself very much or very well to the same degree to to the farm animal side of things. But but I still have that affinity, you know, with that farming background. Well, you know, everything that you've said that Roger really just points more to what I've been saying for ages, which the UK is being made deliberately, engineered deliberately to become unsustainable. You know, we hear about the
sustainable goals. We're all going to to fire off loads of money because of the sustainable initiatives. And yet the UK is unsustainable. We, we can't sustain ourselves with food. And, and what you said there about local produce. Now I hear this so many times from herbal medicine practitioners, especially saying use local herbs, herbs that are indigenous to this country. If you use things from other countries, they may not work as well. Use it.
Use your local, your local resources and honey. For example, an amazing Heather honey in Scotland from one of our amazing herbal practitioners, Brian Lamb works absolutely fantastically for all sorts of health issues including sore throats, strep A. Yet if you use a honey perhaps that's more specialised from another country, it may not work as well. So it really is very important to support our local farmers, farmers in the UK.
But you know, Roger, you know so much about the the agenda and what's going on. And there are going to be hopefully some farmers watching today, perhaps that have never watched before, that have got all the best intentions in the world but just haven't had the time to catch up with stuff. If you had to summarise everything just to give them a hint of what they are up against, what would your message
to them be? I'm sorry that's put you on the spot a little bit, but what would you say directly to any, any small farmer or any farmer now that's watching perhaps for the first time? Well, certainly we need them to keep going is the is the main message. You know, don't give up because I think times will change and, and people will ultimately, you know, look to local produce and, and regenerative farming is definitely one that's around the corner. And that has to be good for the
farmers. It has to be good for the animals as well, because they're not under such, you know, high pressure to, to, to produce as well. So, you know, there are better times ahead. I'm, I'm sure. And I think this whole global agenda, which is what it's all about, really will ultimately fail. I think there's people are waking up and seeing it for what it is, but there is definitely an intention to, you know, sort of go down the whole sort of
multinational corporate route. You know, we, we hear of, of companies like Monsanto buying up all the seeds. So that, and stopping farmers around the world from saving their seeds so that they have to keep buying from, from the, from, from the, from the seed producers now. And you know, so, but there is definitely a bigger agenda here.
And as we know, I mean, if you look at the C 40s webs cities website, they talk about ideally getting our meat consumption down to 0. But but they think realistically they can get us down to 16 kilos of meat a year, probably do that. I don't know in a couple of weeks, But so I'm going to, I'm going to be very thin by the end
of the year. So we do need, we do need, you know, our farmers to keep, keep producing and, and I think, you know, they're going to have to maybe sit it out for a little while and, and, and sweat it out, but, but stick to their guns. And, you know, just keep, keep trying to find ways to, to keep going. Because I think the time will, will, will turn. And, you know, people will start looking for locally, you know, locally produced food and produce and, and, and the
quality of it as well. You know, our farmers are, have got some of the highest welfare levels in the whole world. You know, certainly, you know, we got rid of pig stalls and things like that in the UK before that, before lots of other countries around the world. So, you know, our farmers are looking out for the animals as
much as they possibly can. There's always things that that everything can always be improved, as you know, and, and, and they know that as well, and they're always trying to do that. But it's got to be economic at the same time for them to keep going. And so if we want animal welfare to improve, then we've got to keep supporting those who are actually pushing it forward,
which is the UK farmer. So I would always urge people whenever you possibly can to, you know, by British meat, you know, search, you search it out, seek it out. It is a higher quality and you know, and especially if you're getting it directly from, from farms, you know exactly where it's coming from. And a lot of them will, will
actually let you know. People have a look around the farm and see how the far how the cows have, you know, produced and how they're living and the welfare that they have got. And so, you know, we need to support them, but they need to keep going as well. We really do, and I would really like to put out a message to anybody that's watching Farmers Vets. Please reach out to Roger.
If you don't know what the plan is and you haven't got the time to do the research and gain the amount of amazing knowledge that Roger's got, then please reach out to Roger because I know that Roger goes and talks to groups and he's desperately trying to get this message out and we all need to work together. Before I swerve on to really the reason that we're talking today, which was goes back to our our phone call and your concerns.
Just a couple more questions. How do you see animals in 15 minute cities? Because as we've just said, you know, people are wanting to get away from cities, to get into rural areas, to be near farms, to grow their own produce and to go back to the land themselves. So will we have animals at all in 15 minute cities? I don't know is the honest answer to to that, Debbie. I don't think they've actually sort of set out within their different regimes for and
visions for 15 minute cities. I don't think they mentioned pets because they would probably know that there's so many of us have a pet. So we love having our dogs or our cats or, or other animals as, as pets that if they suddenly started saying, oh, you know, by the way, you're sharing your flat and, and you know, you, you'll, you'll have it for,
for 12 hours of the day. And then you go to work and then someone else will come and have it for the other 12 hours of the night, You know, and there's been, there was a, there was a series on TV, some sort of drama. Wasn't that based on that whole idea? So that's sort of seeding that idea that, you know, you'll know
nothing. Everything will be shared and obviously if you're in a situation like that, it's difficult to see how pets would fit in unless you had, you know, unless the pet was shared as well. But you know, people, people love their own animals and not everybody would have the same want the same choices as you
know, far from ideal. So, you know, they'd, I really don't see how within the 15 minute cities they, they envisage pets really fitting in. But, and no one's really asked a question other than what we're discussing here is first time I think I've heard anybody discuss that whole idea of what might happen to pets in, in the 15 minute city scenario.
And people, certainly, you know, UK people, we love our animals and the idea that we might be banned from, from owning pets or, or the situation just isn't, isn't possible. You know, a lot of people would would, so perhaps get up in arms over that more than they do seem to want to worry about
themselves. When you say that about no pets in 15 minute cities, it makes perfect sense because if I think about the existing cities that we have now that we're all living in now, I was talking to a neighbour only the other day and I was saying we haven't had in this country for I can't, I don't know when it was wiped out, but pest control where the local authority were, you know, you'd have your rat catcher and you could just call the council and they would turn up for a
small fee and they would get rid of whatever pest it would. We don't have that and we currently have more rats on the planet than we do humans. So whilst we're not allowing domestic pets that we all love and look after, and if everybody's the same as me, our pets are king and queen in the house and yet we let pests and rats and rodents just go UN policed completely. That's just an observation because we don't have any pest control at the moment and
haven't done for a long time. But that kind of brings me on. It's going to bring me on to the second part of what we're going to discuss, and it's to set the scene, right? It's just to set the scene. Because when you said it the other day on the phone, Rodger, I hadn't actually thought about it. And now I am because as you know, my life is surrounded by sewage because I'm a sewer flood victim. And you see slurry trucks
driving around. But do we give any consideration to what slurry is and what we're putting on our fields? So before I go any further, because you know where I'm going with this, can you just describe to people what slurry is? Well, to put not too blunt a turn on, it's just processed shit. And unfortunately sort of in the old, you know, sort of in the old days, the farmers obviously we're spreading their their farming Ave. on on the fields as
fertilizer. With the increase in human population in the UK and the way so slurry human human excrement is being being processed, it is now also being used as sort of fire fertilizer on fields. And I think, you know, there's a, there's a real potential hazard to doing that because obviously, you know, pathogens, we, we've got our gut micro microbiome, which obviously has got good bacteria and not so good bacteria and viruses and things in there as well.
And I'm sure we're the best will in the world. Even when it's processed, you know, what's being spread on the field will potentially have that ability for, you know, to can to can still have things that that shouldn't be there and could potentially get into the soil and potentially into our crops. And I know from past conversations, one of the big risks of that is actually prions because they aren't easily dealt
with. They can go into the soil and the latest research shows that roots of plants can actually uptake prions and redistribute them to the leaves. So if those people who are plant based in their diet think that they have got no risk of getting prion diseases because they don't eat animals, think again. And we see this happening in in the USA, especially with chronic wasting disease in deer, which is spreading hugely. And in deer, they've talked about horizontal transmission in deer.
So from 1 deer to another. I wonder whether that how much that actually happens. I I suspect it is more likely that deer in a little mini herd will obviously all be in the same area. And so if prions are being excreted in the deer dung and then that's going into the soil and then the plants are up taking it and then the deer are eating the plants, I suspect that might be the route by which the transmission is happening horizontally.
But, but obviously the risk there and the warning for us is that be careful what you spread on your fields. And as we worry about how we might be inducing prion diseases in animals in the future, if we start introducing mRNA products into, into the veterinary side of, of, of work, then we know
that they can be prionogenic. And you know, it's not difficult to see that if we're giving pronogenic products to our farm animals in significantly large volumes, just the number of animals involved will mean at some point in the future there will be prions being produced. And if they get, if that feces is then going and slurry is going on to the fields, then we risk it going into our, into our human food chain. So there's all sorts of of of dangers of, you know, in what we
see is progress. Sometimes I'm not always sure it is. For viewers that don't know and may not understand prions, Roger and we've talked about it many times before. And if you haven't seen our previous interviews, then do go back and to look at them.
But for people that that don't know, can you just very briefly and very simply explain prions and also the relationship between we've all heard or most of us have heard of mad cow disease or Kreutzfeld Jacob disease, and most of us have heard of dementia and many of us get confused. But there's a tie up with all of those things, isn't that? Can you explain very simply to our viewers what prions are and how this effects those diseases in animals and humans that
you've just mentioned? For people that may not know and also actually while I'm while I'm at it horizontal and vertical, they may not understand that too. OK, yeah. So basically prions are infectious proteins. So they're transmissible and they, they, there's a whole class of diseases called transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, which Kreutzfeld Jacob is the, is the human version mad cow disease. BSE is the, is the cattle version.
Scrapey is the sheep version. And what they discovered, or what we originally thought was that just by eating infected beef back in the 1990s, it was discovered in, in, in cattle, then mad cow disease, that eating that infected beef could, could effectively infect people. But originally it was thought that it was just transmitted through the nervous tissue because it affects the brain, hence this encephalopathy part
of of the name. But actually they've discovered that the prions will go into the meat as well. So all aspects of it. So basically we've got a protein in our body which has got a certain folding, if you like a certain physical structure and it can change in structure and it but forms bit like a crystal. You know, if you put a Chris have a crystal in a salt strong solution, it the crystal grows.
So a bit like if once you get a prion hap in, in the body, it causes these proteins to fold in another way, which causes the proteins around them to, to fold the same way and, and form these sort of plaques, if you like, which, which cause 'cause disease, sort of neurological diseases. So you know, it. And horizontal spread is, is if something goes from peer-to-peer. So within a herd it would pass, it would pass for, you know, a long horizontal vertical spread is if it goes between
generations. So altered, altered. So that's basically the very brief overview, very simplified overview of, of, of prions. So but but it can happen to other proteins as well, like amyloid is another. Protein which you get amyloidosis, which is sort of again a misfolding of proteins and we know that the jabs caused some of that as well. And of course, you mentioned spongy form and careful and kephalopathy there and the
spongy form. I'll just say to our listeners who may not be aware, I know that some of you will. So apologies to those of you that are, but the spongy form comes from in humans where the brain looks like it resembles a sponge. So it actually gets holes in it and therefore people get very confused and it can often be
misdiagnosed. I guess for dementia or what I've certainly heard, and I've coined the phrase turbo dementia because I'm hearing from a lot of doctors who have had patients with Alzheimer's or dementia for years and years and years and all of a sudden they've deteriorated very quickly and have have died much sooner than was expected. So we also mustn't forget that Neil Ferguson, Professor Neil Ferguson, Imperial, who did the modelling incorrectly for mad cow disease, he modelled for COVID.
Am I right in that, Roger? Yes, he did yeah. He he predicted that there would be a lot of, you know, couple of 100,000 deaths from from BSE in people going to new variant CJD. But it but it thankfully it didn't happen in in that way. Yeah. And prones are very difficult to, they can't be denatured by heat or anything like that. Or so they're very difficult to, to get rid of once once they've
been established. So, you know, that's what's so concerning to me when I put did my open letter of concern to the very medicines directive about the potential use of mRNA vaccines called, you know, and not vaccines, but will, you know, mRNA jabs in in animals. I was concerned that if they got used in the food chain that they could be pronogenic and could cause these start causing these problems.
And so, yeah, I've sort of been trying to keep keep up to date and keep on top of that, that current situation. What is the current situation at the moment, Roger with mRNA in animals. I know everybody's because we're all, you know, many people that are watching are quite cautious now about seeking advice from the NHS or seeking advice from a doctor. And now more people are even more cautious about what they're eating, quite rightly. But people are worried. So what is the situation?
Are animals, especially livestock, the ones in the food chain? Are any of them getting mRNA or is there more stuff to roll out yet? Certainly in the UK we haven't got mRNA in being used in the veterinary field at all here in the UK yet. But it is all, it is already been in use in the USA for pigs since 2018. And actually this year later or earlier this year starting in June, they started using a rolling out mRNA jabs in pets in in certain countries.
So it started off with an Mr. Well, they're calling them RNA particle vaccines. So they're trying to hide the fact that they are an mRNA jab. But they were being rolled out for rabies in Canada. And there was also a dog influenza mRNA product, RNA particle product rolled out in USA, Mexico, Chile and the Philippines. And then there was an announcement in September this year that there was an FELV feline leukemia virus mRNA
particle vaccine for cats. And they're all being rolled out by a company called Nobby Back and they're called Nobby Back NXT vaccine. So Nobby Back have actually been around for a long time and a lot of the conventional vaccines are Nobby Back viruses. So just because you see not be back on your on your pet passport or, or vaccination schedule or whatever, it doesn't necessarily mean that they've had an mRNA product. It's, you know, they, they
aren't widespread yet. There are only these certain NXT their products which have got this RNA particle technology, as they're calling it within it. But I did a Freedom of Information to the VMD relatively recently to find out what the current state of play with. And what they could tell me was that there aren't any trials ongoing at the moment in the UK. There aren't any products licensed in the UK at the moment.
What they couldn't tell me obviously because I suppose it's commercially sensitive is what is in the pipeline. And we have to consider that if Merck MSD who have produced these rabies, canine influenza and FELV for cats in the States and elsewhere, you know, they're not going to not want to roll them out in Europe and the UK and all around the world. So we need to keep our eyes and ears to the ground certainly on
on that front. You know, my Freedom of Information is, is good, but it only, it doesn't last very long. You know, it could be out of date in, in a month's time. So, you know, we've, we've just got to keep our ears to the ground and, and see what's going on. And I'd like to reiterate that actually to everybody, if you didn't catch it first time around, what Roger said, that was extremely valuable I think for everyone in the fact that we
know mRNA as mRNA, right? But clearly, it would seem that in the animal world, they've renamed it RNA particle vaccines. So I think it's very important that people are aware of that difference in language and know what to look out for and know what to ask about. So I think that's extremely valuable. So thank you for that. And I'm going to bring us to the bombshell now because you rang me the other day and you said, Debbie, I'm worried about something.
And you know, all around us we're seeing these stories of bird flu, avian flu, transmission to human zoonosis, which is the transmission of a virus or illness from animal to human. But we've also talked about reverse zoonosis as well, which is the other way around. And in these days of bird flu, you suddenly thought and talked about PCR tests, didn't you, Roger? And you wrote a an Foy And you've got a little bit to say
about this. So I'm going to hand over to you to tell, to tell everyone what you've been doing, what you've been finding out, and what the possible repercussions could be and the consequences. So over to you PCR tests. Yeah, PCR. I mean, we, nobody had really heard of them, although they've been around for a long while, I suppose, until COVID came along. And we sort of professor Fenton and a few others talked about false positives and things like
that. And we sort of knew that they weren't necessarily as reliable as they were being made out to be. Especially with PCI, what you do is your cycling. You're, you're, you're amplifying at each cycle the amount of particle that you're trying to find up so that you know 2 becomes before becomes 8 becomes 16, becomes 32 becomes 64128 and, and keeps on going. And so very soon after you've done a relatively short number of cycles, you, you've massively amplified what is there.
And so there was a, a paper I think published basically said if you cycle more than 23 times, then it means in order to find something to detect something, it means what was there in the original sample wasn't there in sufficient quantities to be considered really infectious in the clinical situation. And we also know knew that Carrie Mullis who developed the PCR testing, got the Nobel Prize for doing so. He'd said you shouldn't be using PCR tests in a clinical
situation. But it wasn't actually until I wrote an article for my sub stack because I'm on sub stack as natural vet and I did an article on PCR test and the penny suddenly dropped as to why Carrie Mullis had said you shouldn't be using PCR tests in a clinical situation. And basically he developed PCR because he was doing sort of gene editing and genetic, you know, looking at mutations and
things. And so he needed to be able to detect in his post treatment sample whether whether what he'd been trying to introduce had actually been successful or not. And so PCR is really developed to detect these relatively short strands of nucleic acids. So about 2020 bases long, which isn't very, very much in, in the grand scale of how long our genes are or how much nuclear acid material there are in in
viruses and bacteria and things. And so he was using it to distinguish between two known strands effectively. So he had a finite N = 2 possibility of, you know, as as to what that could be in his test tube, which is a very
different situation. When you've got a microbiome that has got millions and billions of bacteria and viruses throughout our on our skin, in our gut, in our ears, you know, every orifice that that we have will have all these thousands say billions of of micro microbiome in there. And so to use APCR test on a swab, the chances of finding that sequence, a relatively short sequence of only twenty
faces is quite highly probable. And so you end up in a situation where organisms are being misidentified based on APCR test. So I was concerned obviously we, we, as you say, when we started hearing about avian flu and sort of lock downs and the colds and then there's talk of other potential notifiable diseases around the countryside.
And also with my background worry about as we spoke at the beginning about what what is what is in the pipeline for farming, I was concerned about how PCR tests might be being used in veterinary medicine. So I contacted the Veterinary Medicines Directive, who are the authorization regulating body for veterinary medicines and products in the UK.
And I asked them, how do you justify having authorized PCR testing in fit, fit fit for clinical use on the basis that Carrie Malice said it shouldn't be done For these reasons. And the risk of false positives is, is very high.
And how, how are you, how are you using PCR tests to, to make sure that those false positives don't manifest and the clinical decisions and important decisions in terms of farm lockdown and potentially cull orders aren't going to be based on something that's pie in the sky. And I was absolutely gobsmacked to get an e-mail back saying, no, we don't authorize them and not regulate it.
And it's like, hang on a minute. These, this is a medical instrument that's been used for, for a diagnostic situation. And I think every vet will be in the UK. Anybody who's, anybody who's using the, the PCR test probably automatically assumes like I did that there was some sort of check and balance on these tests.
A to make sure that they were what they said in the tin and that the there was a sort of knowledge and understanding of what the risk of false positives and negatives are from them as well. And that they were then overseen and checked that that are regulated and unauthorized and all the rest of it. So I don't think probably any vet in the UK didn't realize that that hadn't occurred. And I was they suggested suggested that I contact the PCR
test manufacturers. Well, we know they aren't, you know, we know farmer is the biggest criminal group in the world. They've had the highest fines and, you know, had the highest harms to to people and deliberately ignored it in the past. You know what the level of trust, unfortunately that that's been generated as a result of their past history, you know, is going to be extended to, to the to, to the medical instruments in terms of PCR tests and everything else as well.
So asking, asking the the manufacturer I didn't feel was a the right thing that, that I should have to do. And BI wouldn't necessarily trust that that work had been done necessarily either. And so it does sort of beg the question as to how PCR tests are being used in clinical situations, especially on farms. And I understand that obviously if there is a concern over the potential presence of a disease such as even influenza that they want a quick result.
And obviously APCR test will will give a relatively quick result. But again, I don't know what the protocols are for, for doing those PCR tests as to whether they are how many cycles they're being put through. And as far as I'm concerned, APCR test could only be considered part of the information necessary in order
to make such a decision. Because ideally the risk of, of false positives is such that unless there's some sort of isolation and identification process going alongside in parallel, then how do you know whether that PCR test is positive or no true positive or false positive. So that was my sort of big, big concern is that then, you know, if PC, if PCR tests are going to be used on a wide scale use, you know, assuming there was some big outbreak of, of, of avian
flu. And then, you know, obviously the we had scaremongering back in, back in the summer of, of, of it being transmissible to cows and then being in milk and things like that. So, so it wasn't clear what the how, how the PCR test might be being used and therefore what the farmers might be being asked to subject their cows to in terms of testing with possible major implications based on on
that result. And if it was just being based on PCR and there was no proper isolation and identification going on, then you could have potentially no hell herds being culled without, you know, without, without good scientific basis. And the trouble with, with isolation and identification is it takes time. And of course, if it, if it takes four or five days for identification, isolation to, to, to, to, to actually get a result, you know, the Defra would argue that that's too long
to have waited. So, so I can sort of see a potential situation where APCR test is used initially and if it comes back positive, a farm is, is perhaps given a lockdown, but you would hope no curl is, is put in order, is put in place until at least an isolation and identification in a way that doesn't use PCR has been done to actually make sure that that is the real situation. So the sort of the, there's a, there's a lot of concern and, and not a lot of clarification,
I'm afraid. But my concerns haven't been met. They haven't been really dealt with. And the VMD passed my, my questions on to the APHA and I've also chased them up as well to say, you know, what is, what is the current situation? How, how are PCR tests being used on, on, you know, within these notifiable disease situations? And what is, what is your position in guaranteeing that, you know, a Co order or even a lockdown order can have quite significant financial implications for farms.
You know, it's, it makes a bit, it makes a big difference. So you know, what is, what is what it, what is that protocol in place? So they are, we're still waiting for them to get back to me on that. And what people don't necessarily realise is farmers will get penalised if their animals are put on lockdown and they say they, you know, it's pig farm for argument's sake and they can't sell, send their pigs at the right time to, to, to
market for slaughter. Then if they have to wait and the pigs obviously will carry on being fed and carry on growing and they'll carry on putting too much fat potential, what's regarded as too much fat down, you know, on the, on the body composition, Then the farmers will actually get penalized for, for that, for submitting pigs that aren't of the right quality, which is ridiculous because if they've been put on a, on a lockdown order and this actually happened during COVID
where, you know, farmers were penalized for submitting animals. But even though everything had been locked down that that we're outside of the accepted parameters for the carcasses. So you know this, there are huge implications for farmers in terms of making sure that the testing that might have some implication implications for for movement and also potentially for cull that those tests are as accurate as they possibly can be and PCR is not that.
I think what you've just said there, Roger, is an absolute bombshell, quite honestly. And I have to sort of say the what if. I mean, it really is a what if now. I mean, you're saying that PCR tests are being used, although they're not mandated. There's no process. There's no balances or checks or
anything about them or on them. And what if, for example, and I know that a flock has been culled fairly recently for avian flu and I'm keeping an eye on the clock, by the way, but I do think this deserves just an extra few minutes because it's so huge. Because what if hypothetically, a farmer calls the vets because he's got two 3-4, maybe poorly chickens and the vet comes out with PCR tests.
And what you're saying there, of course, is the alternative to APCR test for people that don't know is a cult culture is, is, is doing a test that might take 3 or 4 days. That's, that's got to be incubated. It's got to be tested. It's got to be cultured in order to find out what the disease is. And of course, as you've said, Roger, that takes days. Whereas APCR test is quick, however it's completely inaccurate.
It wasn't designed to do this. And if vets are going into farms, I mean, by the way, how do you PCR test a chicken? Well, they must be taking swabs. So and it may be if they, you know, if in that scenario, if they've got a flock of chickens and one or two of them have died, then then probably do a post mortem on them. So I would hope that there is a culture, an identification process going alongside in
parallel. But but I but I don't you know, I would yeah, I would hope that there is and I suspect that there is. But but obviously there is going to be a movement order slapped on that farm straight away if they do the PCSPCR test as as an initial as an initial screen, if you like. But even that has has app has,
you know, applications. And I suppose you could argue if there wasn't APCR test doing, they would just put a movement order on them anyway until until an identification and isolation identification was properly carried out. So they would get they would get a movement order slot slapped on them anyway. So PCR, I suppose if it comes back negative, that could potentially give them an all clear, which is better than nothing.
But even then we did, we still don't know what, what's the false negative risk of the PCR tests either. So it's, it's not ideal from from anybody's point of view. And I 100% think that the vets don't realize, you know, they're given a test and it says PCR test or, you know, or they're told that they can get APCR test done on, on swabs for, for these diseases. They, they trust because we've got to, you know, what else are you going to do?
You've got, you've got to trust that that test does what it says on the tin. And unless you've been through some sort of scientific training in terms of laboratory research to fully understand the PCR test. And it was so it was only because I suddenly went into it in such depth in order to do my sub stack that it, it sort of suddenly dawned on me. But I actually hadn't fully, although I, I'd understood the hesitancy around PCR tests during COVID, I actually hadn't fully understood it.
And, and so that's I think is just the critical situation where no, we, you know, PCR tests aren't supposed to being used in clinical situations, you know, and swap will be done. It might be a respiratory swab or it might be done on a, on a chicken's cloaca to if, if it's, you know, if it's, you know, I've got diarrhea or something, then then, you know, looking for, for maybe other, other diseases as well. So, you know, I just wonder what, what's going on.
And, you know, and people also need to understand the PCR test for, you know, because obviously what I'm saying for animals is equally, equally applicable for, for people as well. Not that we're under risk of, of of a cow order, but obviously, you know, people, people, people are going to be potentially restricting themselves on the basis of a back of APCR test without fully understanding that actually there's a with that.
If they haven't got clinical disease symptoms, the chances of them being infectious and having that disease actually without knowing the false positive rate of the of the PCR test is, is, is highly dubious. And you know, as they're talking about this whole mRNA platform being something where you can then develop a vaccine very quickly.
We can see potentially how if PCR tests are being used as they were during COVID to to amplify and ramp up, you know, the scaremongering and the warning over something, you know, may we talk about it in terms of COVID, but it might be something completely different. You know, we know that they're developing an mRNA vaccine for for people for for norovirus.
So if you can, you can imagine a situ situation where any, any person who had a bit of diarrhea suddenly got had APCR test done on that sample and it suddenly came up norovirus that they, not that they need it, it will self limit in a couple of days anyway. But they will be used as leverage to encourage them or to or to make them have, you know, the equivalent, the appropriate mRNA job.
So I think, you know, we, we need to understand PCR testing and understand it's, it's limitations because if we're not careful, it'll be potentially be one of the leverages which will be used to push what we know they're trying to do, which is to really develop this whole mRNA platform across a whole myriad of different diseases. And although we're early days now and there's only a few of them on the market, we certainly know that there are others intended.
And, you know, the last UK government invested so much money in Moderna to, to produce so many, you know, millions of pounds a year contract that you know, they, they will want to be using, using, using those, those jabs. And they want to position the UK as the head of the lead country
in the whole mRNA platform. So, you know, we, we've got to be aware of how that pressure could be bought to bear on, on people and for themselves, but also for their animals for, for using these products, which we know actually as a whole platform is inherently unsafe. For all the vets and farmers out there, what do they do? I mean, if a if a vet walks through into your farm armed with APCR test, does the farmer question it? Does the farmer agree to it?
And similarly, if you're a vet and you're watching, should you be using APCR test? What are the consequences of a false positive? Could that herd or could that flock be called as a result of that one PCR test? I mean, these are incredibly important messages to to farmers or to all of us, but especially to farmers and to vets because potentially, and I'm just hypothetically saying this now, but potentially if farmers are listening and they go, well,
actually do you know what? We'd rather be put on a movement order and have a proper culture and know for sure what we're dealing with rather than rely on a fake or an inaccurate test that could potentially wipe out my whole flock or wipe out my whole herd. We could. Could we get scenes in the future of farmers going to vets? Actually, we don't want you coming onto our property.
If Defra come down hard and say yes, you have to use PCR tests and farmers decide no, well we don't want to because they're not accurate and they're not effective. I mean, the farmers need to know this, right? So as they're doing their farmers protests and they're looking inheritance tax, they need to be look at the consequences of potentially something that may seem quite innocuous APCR test that they might not have considered could
have huge consequences. Have I summarized that correctly or do you want to add to that or correct me on anything there? Now I think that's, you know, those potential situations are very valid and I would, I would say to, to any vets out there, you know, ask the questions, you know, don't necessarily believe me, but ask you ask the questions yourself. Now look into the PCR test yourself.
Make sure that you understand what it is that it's that it's doing, how it works, how it could potentially produce false positives and false negatives. And recognize that if there is a high probability, as I think there is, of producing a false positive, that it is only used in combination with isolation
identification. And, you know, be aware of of the consequences of if, if PCR test is just being used on its own, you know, where is that potentially going to lead to in terms of the same movement orders or, or other restrictions or culls or whatever. And the farmers also need to be asking those questions of the vets as well and sort of saying to them, you know, if if is that APCR test that you're going to
be doing? If the vet says yes, then they can say, well, OK, are we doing and isolation and identification in parallel with that? What's the difference? What, what are the time scales for those two different tests?
And they might say, well, we'll get the PCR test back tomorrow, but we'll get the identification and isolation potentially back in, in, in, I don't know four or five days time or whatever, whatever it is. And the pharmacy needs to then ask the question, well, if you PCR test comes back positive, what restrictions are you going to put on my farm? What, what implication is that going to have for my business?
And you know, if they come back and say, oh, we're going to, we would be able to issue a cull notice straight away. Then pharma needs to say, well, hang on a minute, what if it's a false positive? Because there's a potential here for it to be so because of how the PCR test works.
So, you know, I think there has to be, everybody needs to question what they're doing and what they're allowing to have done because that because they're, you know, they need to understand what those implications are and what is the risk of of, you know, false test results. And that's, you know, that should be standard practice. And you know, I'm not trying to ask anybody to be doing anything that other than what they should naturally be doing anyway.
You know, farmers obviously, especially, you know, whether there's some dairy farm, whether we know the cows are there on a on a much longer term basis than than raising chickens for meat, for example. Now that, you know, the farmers have have an affinity to those to those cows and those family
lines that they've bred. But hours of, of choosing into to breed those lines of cows and they won't, won't want to risk, you know, a cull situation unless it's absolutely 100% stone cold necessary for for whatever reason. And you know, those decisions can only and should only be being made when we've got really reliable tests that are being carried out in the way that they're supposed to be being
carried out. And I should say APCR test should only ever be used in combination with isolation and identification. If animals have voices, I think every single one of them that was listening to this interview would be screaming. We want Roger as our vets because on the column here, we've met some amazing doctors and many of us have said, oh, if only you were just around the corner. If only you were our GP. And I think there are going to be many animals and many animal
owners who are going off. We need to contact Roger and all Rogers contact details will be in in the article beneath this interview. But I really, really want to thank you, Roger, for joining the dots, for asking the questions, for questioning everything in order to bring this information to us, which I, I believe is crucial. So I, I, I make no apologies for this interview being a little bit longer than normal because I think it's incredibly important.
And if you are a vet, if you are a farmer, if you know anybody who's a vet or a farmer and you like what the UK column are doing, we're doing a lot of work on agriculture on one health, antimicrobial resistance, which is another one. Maybe we'll come to next time, Roger, with regards to animal health, then please share our material, spread the word. We need your help. And Roger, just bless you and
thank you. And it's over to you with our love and so Many thanks because you've helped me personally with our animals as well. So if anybody out there has got an animal that isn't very well or you do need some alternative care for, please contact Roger. He's your man. And with that, Roger, it's over to you for your last word. Thank you. Thank you, Debbie. Very kind words. Yeah. And I think I sort of want to finish on a point of hope, to be
honest. You know, sort of what we're talking about is can be quite heavy and, you know, and maybe even depressing. And obviously we don't want to be depressed. We want, we want to feel that there's hope. But you know, that that time will come. I am absolutely sure, you know, but we do need to be aware of what is happening when you do need to be aware of the agenda so that we we can see what's
behind what's going on as well. So I think, you know, the important thing is there is light at the end of the tunnel. I think people are waking up to what's going on and you know, the farmers are very much required and you know, we are going to get to a point where we're going to be back looking more regenerative farming, I'm sure and locally produced food.
And you know, the farmers, I would say hang in there and everybody else support your farmers and you know, hang on to that, that positive thing we've got. Obviously Donald Trump was elected in the States. He's not there until the 20th. Hopefully we'll survive that long. But you know, he with Robert Kennedy doing what he's going to do in the in the United States, I'm sure some of those waves that he are going, he's going to start off over there will ripple over here.
And it won't necessarily happen straight away, but it will happen. So we've just got to sit it out and, you know, recognize that there are better times ahead and just hang on to that. And you know, we do need to be aware and support those who are doing good work and resist those who are doing evil.