David Hughes, thank you for joining me in the trenches. Well, thank you for having me back and congratulations on your new UK column slot. I participated in a 9/11 symposium back in 2020 I think it was, which went out on UK columns, so not my first time. I'm glad to be back. Gee, there's a really good starting point 911. I mean, if we're talking about psyops and mind control, that is a gem, isn't it? It's, well, it's one of the very
biggest, isn't it? I mean, I was struck when I first woke up and inverted commas and realized the extent of the lie. I was struck very much by the question, why is it that most people don't see it when actually it's blindingly obvious. And that has to do very much with the power of psychological operations, with propaganda, with the use of the term conspiracy theorist and so on. And it's absolutely vital that the public understands how these operations work.
So much of my research since then has been devoted to exposing the various techniques that they use to get away with it. Essentially. Like what? Well, I mean, in my COVID book, I cover all kinds of different techniques of psychological
warfare that were involved. But I mean, returning to 911, some of the techniques are very crude in terms of shock the population with a traumatic event and then just use propaganda to beat them around the head with every nightly news broadcast talking about terrorism and and and so on and Al Qaeda that that's really all there was for years after the event. But then of course, there are deeper levels. I think there's a a kind of something called it a mainstream alternative media position.
I, I call it Camp 2 in my 3 camps framework, but the idea is that there's a, a group of people out there I'm sure probably has military intelligence connections whose role it is to deliberately mislead even the skeptics. And so in my view, that is very much the case with the Nano Thermite narrative which has been proposed down the years, which I and many others think is bogus. We find that the characters who promote that narrative to be
untrustworthy and dishonest. And there's certainly a groundswell, a growing group of people out there now who think that the truth lies neither with the official explanation nor with the Nano thermite explanation, but broadly in the direction of the work of Judy Wood. I had the great privilege of interviewing her, I think back in 2021 and I found her work mind blowing, utterly mind
blowing. Her book is something like I've never seen in terms of an investigation into into 911 yet David speak to the average person around you about what she concluded, which is effectively directed energy weapons and people will the eyes will glaze over and they'll call you a clown. Yeah, and this is precisely what I'm talking about in terms of the power of the psychological operations to cover up the truth. I mean, in the case of Doctor Wood, she's never been allowed
to have a Wikipedia page. Now, this is quite interesting because it's often the case that Wikipedia will give people pages just in order to promote misinformation about them. But obviously Wood's ideas are so dangerous actually to the establishment that she's never been allowed even to have a page of that nature. And I've seen very few people smeared and attacked and ridiculed to the extent that she has been down the years. And again, I think that says
something very significant. And obviously people then, you know, if they fall for that, they don't want to be associated with someone who's been painted in those terms. But all of this is about making sure that the very important evidence that is presented in Where Did the Towers Go doesn't come to light or isn't taken seriously.
And one of the important points that Doctor Wood makes in that book is that she's not trying to present a, a hard theory per SE, but she is presenting the evidence. And there's 500 pages of evidence in that book. And it's a, a high quality production. It contains all kinds of photographs and, and, and diagrams and much else besides. There's, there's a whole treasure trove for readers to delve into there.
And some of that evidence, I'm not sure would ever have come to light or ever have been taken seriously were it not for Doctor Wood. Some of it is quite extraordinary when you take, for example, what she calls the toasted cars. I mean, what on earth would cause this to happen? So for anyone who's not familiar with it, I'm sure virtually all of your audience is.
But many cars in the in the vicinity of the Twin towers were found apparently burned out, certainly very peculiar kind of what, what appear to be burn patterns on them. And yet you have to ask, well, why would 2 collapsing buildings? Of course the buildings didn't collapse per SE, but you know, officially, why would 2 collapsing buildings 'cause that kind of damage to cars. And in particular, there was a car park a few blocks away from the few blocks northwest of the of the towers.
And you can find photographs before and after the event occurred. Whatever did this to the cars, and you can see there in pristine condition beforehand and then afterwards most but not all strangely, of the cars are badly damaged. So what caused that? And in a sense, these are still open questions, but the evidence itself is undeniable and we really must look at it. You talk about various camps and this doesn't only apply to 911 and it applies to psychological, psychological warfare as a
whole, doesn't it? Yes, it does, absolutely. And particularly during the COVID era. I mean, one of the unfortunate realizations that I personally have come to over the last 12 months or so is that those in what I call Camp 2, which is it's designed for skeptics of
official narratives. They've, they, they learn to question the official version of events and then they enter Camp 2 and they are greeted there by a battalion of fake dissidents, essentially people whose role it is to mislead, distract pied pipers essentially that will provide them with plenty of truth, plenty of relevant facts, but will fundamentally mislead them about the most important truths.
It takes an awful lot of work actually to get out of Camp 2, both in terms of research and also psychologically and, and emotionally and to find one's way into what I call Camp 3, which is essentially the truth. And it's a, it's an ugly and difficult place to be and it's a very small place to be. And the, the unfortunate realization I've come to is that Camp 2 relative to Camp 3 is enormous.
So when fighting the, the, the battle for ideas, unless I join you in the trenches, it's for me, it's really all about trying to, to find your way into Camp 3 and it's, it's extremely, extremely difficult. So a more contemporary example of what you're speaking about, if I may, would be the COVID era. And Kid Knightley from Off Guardian refers to something similar as fake binaries or the sort of false dichotomy of, of A&B thinking.
So let's look at the COVID era. So you've got the the Biden camp, so to speak, that will argue that there was a pandemic and it came from a wet market in in China. You'll get the Trump camp that will argue there was a pandemic, but it comes from a lab in China. Both are arguing that there was a pandemic and both are arguing
that China was involved. So they're ultimately arguing the same thing, which means that there's still space for the third option, which is what you refer to as Camp C, which is that there wasn't a pandemic and the whole thing was a
psychological operation. Yes, and I get into that in chapter 6 of my book COVID-19, Psychological Operations and the War for Technocracy. And Mike Eden also proposed this argument, which I agree with, which is very much as you've you've outlined, did the virus escape from a lab? Was it natural? It doesn't matter which side you take. Ultimately, you are subscribing to the idea that there was, in fact, a novel virus.
Yeah. When really, I mean, the kinds of questions you should be asking is, is that, is that true? And I argue in the book that the onus was on the authorities to provide irrefusable evidence that it was true. And to my mind, they didn't do so. But even separate from that question, even if there had of been such a virus, could the measures that were taken ever have been justified?
You know, shutting down the most of the economy, locking people in their houses, creating incredible levels of psychological stress, which of course then led to physical debility in many cases. I mean, the effects on so many people's lives were so bad, depriving children of their education, putting people in masks, etcetera. I mean, it was an awful time by design. Now, could any of that really have been justified even if
there were a virus? No, because the whole point here is that it wasn't about a public health crisis. That's the camouflage, that's the facade, that's the decoy. And I'm using military language on purpose here because this, as I argue in the book, the whole thing was a psychological operation. And the purpose of that operation as we move towards the truth, in my view, was to initiate what I have called the war for technocracy.
And so there is a much broader project going on here which involves the gradual dismantlement of liberal democracy and its replacement with a novel form of totalitarianism, which, as Patrick Wood has amply demonstrated over the years, goes by the name of technocracy. And so all of this business about virus, no virus, public health, science, the science trademark, etcetera, the whole
thing is 1 massive distraction. And I was very pleased recently to, to watch Sasha Latapova's latest presentation. And she's pulled no punches over the years about this being a military operation. And it's a military operation, which is essentially ongoing because we still have the same transnational deep state that was behind this, that was behind 9/11 and behind so much else is still active and is still pushing towards technocracy regardless.
And this is what the public really has to get wise to now, because if this technocratic system is brought in, well, I mean, it's not just the end of democracy, as far as I can tell, it would be the end of, of human freedom. I think it was around 2016 when I effectively swallowed my first red pull, and then around 2020 I think I swallowed a whole bottle of red pulls. Yeah. When did you start opening your eyes and why? Strangely enough, exactly the same time frame, really in
exactly the same ways. So that's a strange coincidence. Yeah. I mean, for me it was December 2016 and and and my wake up in inverted commas was 911 and it was the destruction of the Twin towers. It came in the context of of teaching US foreign policy. Wait, wait, wait, wait. On the day 2001, you, you, you, you woke up. No 2016. Oh, I beg your point. OK, so so so but but but the 9/11 was. The trick was the yes was the trick, exactly. So I gotcha.
Yeah. So I'd been teaching US foreign policy to my students, and we've been dealing with the war in Vietnam and the war in Afghanistan. And I've been reflecting on some of the parallels and continuities between those two wars, very long wars, very costly wars, PTSD for the soldiers, and so on. And I thought, well, we know that the major escalation in the the Vietnam War came about as a result of the Gulf of Tonkin incident, which we now know to have been a lie and to have been
a false flag. And then, you know, you think to the war in Afghanistan and the War on Terror. How did that all kick off 911? Well, surely, surely that was everybody knows that, you know, conspiracy theory rights. I think that 911 was a a false flag. But I thought, well, I better just check.
And of course, it doesn't take very long, does it, for anyone who's honest about this to actually look at that evidence and to very quickly realize that that the manner in which the buildings were destroyed could not possibly have had to do with jet fuel. 911 was a big moment. I mean, it was pivotal, but it wasn't really global in the sense that COVID was. Yeah, I, I think it shows that over the intervening years, what I have called the transnational deep state has become
increasingly global. And I mean, maybe it was already before this, but what COVID showed with the extremely high degree of transnational cooperation all over the world and the apparent assassination of the, the few African leaders who dissented, is that really the, the power structure that we're looking at now is a global power structure which has managed to capture seemingly all states, all governments, all major institutions, all of the major media outlets, the banks,
and you name it. All of the major institutions in society now seem to be captured by and aligned with a transnational deep state, which is working on behalf of a transnational ruling class to replace liberal democracy with global technocracy and thereby to subjugate the entire global population. So when I refer to a war for technocracy in the title of my book, I mean that in a very literal sense, because you cannot achieve social engineering on that scale historically without World War.
And So what we're looking at now is a third World War, in my opinion, which was initiated, though undeclared, in 2020. It's a war being waged by the few against the many. It's a war being waged by a numerically miniscule proportion of the world's population, essentially the ruling class that owns the means of production. It can manipulate the financial system. It can manipulate the the propaganda. It can manipulate what happens in the skies.
It's a war that is being waged from the cell to the stratosphere by this tiny but very powerful group against the rest of humanity. And I've referred to this as an Omni war because it the very logic of that war means that it has to take on its own peculiar characteristics. And so it has to be waged by stealth, because if the public gets wise to what's going on, there could be revolution overnight. And it's a war which is waged across every conceivable domain of human life.
And as indeed it it has to be if you are trying to subjugate the entire of humanity. So these are really extraordinary times that we are living through. I mean, this is a, a, a moment of world historical transformation. And we don't know at this stage what direction it's going to go in. But what's interesting about this is that for decades this very powerful group of people has tried to do things
incrementally. It's tried to remain hidden in the shadows so that it can effect change slowly, gradually, in a way which isn't noticed. But with 2020, it really to some extent came out of the shadows. And it was so major and so massive what happened that for anyone paying attention, it's,
it's impossible to ignore. So they're pushing hard now for Technocracy. And we see it in all kinds of different respects from the, you know, the digital currency drive to facial recognition software to AI technologies being tested in war in places like Ukraine and and Gaza. All of this is, is, is going on. And unfortunately it's coming for us if we don't resist and if we don't if if if what? What's required is mass non compliance essentially with with
all aspects of this technocracy. The whole thing relies on technologies for subjugation purposes. And what the public has to do is to learn to recognize those technologies and to reject. Them Mathias Desmet has written a lot about totalitarianism and and I I tend to agree with with some of what he says, particularly around the idea that approximately 30% of people at any given time will will
reject or push back. Yeah, I mean, I don't think that it was Desmond's idea per SE. It is in his book. But I mean, for example, you can go back to Aldous Huxley's writings in the in the 1950s and and find similar claims. So I don't think there's anything terribly original in that claim, but nevertheless it seems to be true.
And you can see it also in, for example, the the vaccination in inverted commas data from the UK Health Security Agency from July 2022 after the rollout of the injections was mostly complete. And when you analyze that data, you find that in terms of the adult population in the UK, 23% of the UK adult population
refused to take a single shot. So again, that's kind of in line with what we're talking about, you know, roughly 1/5 or 1/4 or so of the population for whatever reason, and we don't know necessarily does seem to be immune to the hypnosis, the programming, the, the, the propaganda. I mean, the good news is I, I think that that percentage is slowly growing over time. I think more and more people are in inverse of Commons waking up. And once you see these things,
there is no going back. You seem skeptical. Are you sure? Are you sure? I don't know. I'm I'm noticing people going backwards. Well, the as I, as I argue in the book, the that the COVID operation, as I call it, military operation, one key element of it did involve trauma
based mind control. And as Mary Holland has stated, populations at one level could be forgiven for feeling as though they experienced or they're living through a kind of PTSD en masse because of what happened and because of what was done to them. And, and therefore the traumatic aspect of it means that people are psychologically disinclined
to revisit what happened. And one of the reasons that I wrote my book, as I put in chapter 1, is precisely to revisit it. And it's a form of anamnesis. It's all about remembering in granular detail exactly what happened and exactly what was done because there are perpetrators here. This was done by design for very nefarious purposes. So it's important that we don't forget that now. Yes, I am confident actually that more and more people are seeing through this.
I mean, it's very interesting that it will probably be in the next few days that my book will will pass a quarter of a million accesses and downloads on the publishers official website alone, which for an academic book is, is almost unheard of. So what that shows is that there is a public interest and appetite for this information. People do want to know.
I've had plenty of people now telling me that I, for whatever reason, you know, I don't know manner of delivery, the nature of the information I'm presenting or whatever, but that I've been able to reach some of their friends and family that they've not been able to reach and to help them to, to see things. I think that the, I mean, it might be a painstakingly slow process from our perspective, but I think more and more people are very gradually starting to
come round. And I've seen this even in my own family. You know, even certain people who I thought would never in a million years be able to psychologically process this information are now starting to. So I'm still hopeful in that regard. And I mean, ultimately the truth is the truth. I mean, it always comes out in the end.
And just coming back to those percentages that you mentioned a few minutes ago, I mean, if we're looking at 1/4 of the population being immune to this stuff anyway, you've only really got to get to 51% for things to start to swing. You know, we don't need to be able to convince everybody or even a large majority if we could just get another, you know, 30% or so, maybe not even that, then things could start changing very, very quickly. You know, there could, there
could be a tipping point. So I remain optimistic. I think you actually make some good points there and maybe I should rephrase what I was asking a little bit, because it's not A or B in the sense, you know, when I say waking up, I'm not talking about every aspect of every conceivable talking point. You know, some people, for example, will, will agree that there was no pandemic, but they won't agree that Direct Energy weapons were used on 9/11, for
example. And I think this is the nature of the human condition that we can compartmentalize various vectors. So, So when we say waking up or opening our eyes, I guess it depends on what we're talking about. Yeah, I mean, in a sense, it's a process, isn't it? And it's about learning to identify the mechanisms that are involved. And I mean, I don't expect everyone to agree on everything, and I don't expect everyone to agree with everything that I or
anyone else has to say. That's not what it's about. You know, you're right, it's not an A or B thing. But it is about people learning to distrust the information that's provided by mainstream sources and to develop a sense that the authorities which are ostensibly there to serve and protect them are doing nothing of the kind and, as COVID amply demonstrated, are in fact now attacking them and are, in my
view, at war with them. It's about understanding that even once you've developed that consciousness, there are levels of perception and levels of awareness and that once you start to ask the questions, there will be even more challenges put in your way in terms of the fake dissident camp, two kind of characters that I have mentioned. And it's about learning that, you know, this is a, a difficult
and painstaking process. It involves, I mean, psychologically you have to abandon some fundamental ideas that you've been propagandized with really ever since birth that the inherent virtue of Western liberal democracies, you know, the idea that vaccines are safe and effective and so on.
The idea that we're fighting a virtuous War on Terror against, you know, foreign non state actors that are that are out to get us all of these things, which we've really been conditioned just to accept go out the window. And that that's quite difficult because it's a very disorientating process And it's it's a scary process. It's a frightening process. It removes the kind of psychological security that you you may may have had.
So it's not about getting people to believe XY or Z, but it's about getting them to engage in that process, to understand that process and to actually have the the courage and the integrity to to start treading that path. The problem, David, though, is the pendulum always seems to swing in a really wonky fashion because we'll talk about Camp A and Cam B, right? And Cam B would be opposition to the official narrative in many respects. So let's say 911.
OK, so Cam B would be argue that, I don't know, there was demolition and all sorts of other things going on, right? And on the face of it, it's great to see the rejection of
the mainstream narrative. But now what happens is you have you have arguments within Camp B and Camp C about what the actual truth is, and it weakens the overall opposition, which would be B + C And so now you have Camp A looking at B&C and laughing going, well, they're just a bunch of clowns because they don't even know what's going on. And yeah, we are maintaining the official narrative. Everything that you've just described is by design.
If you go back to a 2009 paper by Cass Sunstein and Adrian Vermeul, they, this is an academic journal paper and they call in that and, and you know, these are Harvard professors, by the way, and they call in that paper for government agents to infiltrate chat rooms, particularly in the context of those asking critical questions about the events of 9/11 and essentially to sow disruption. So we know that this is by design. We know that these bad actors
are out there. We know that their task is to create confusion, to turn people against one another, to promote silly or ludicrous narratives, to promote more credible sounded but false narratives. We know that this has been going on and it was incredibly effective in the so-called 911 truth community. I mean, as you say, there is no community. It's, it's been completely shattered and disparate. And in that sense, the the the perception management operations were successful.
However, again, I think more and more people are starting to understand how the game works now. And in the case of COVID, for example, or in the case of the kind of the bots on X or Twitter as it used to be, more and more people are realizing that, for example, in the UK, there are things like the 77th Brigade whose role is precisely to do with perception management through online means that was specifically deployed to enforce the COVID narrative in various
ways. And I forget what was his name, was it Mike Williams? I may have got that wrong. But anyway, as one of the senior generals in relation to the 77th Brigade came out back in March, April 2020 and said, yeah, we've got, you know, 3000 of our members working on this and we, you know, we could call up 20,000 if we want. So when I'm talking about battalions of kind of misinformers, I, I mean that in a quite literal military sense, because we know that this is what's going on.
And of course, a lot of people now do refer to the 77th Brigade online, you know, or, or when they're being trolled by bots and, and, and so on, which apparently now is most Internet traffic. People are starting to understand the scale of the misinformation and the deception. And I think people are becoming more critical and more discerning in terms of the kind of information that they're looking for. But I don't underestimate the scale of the challenge.
And of course, it's getting even worse now with AI and deep fakes and so on, where soon it may become virtually impossible to distinguish what's what's real and what's not real online. And that is a particular concern. I mean, you could imagine a podcast of this nature going out with you and I looking and sounding exactly as we do, but saying all kinds of different things. Now that's a that's a huge concern.
And it, you know, could lead to a kind of mass psychosis where no one really knows what's real or not. But nevertheless, I do think that more and more people are starting to to understand how the game works and to become a bit more discerning about the way in which they take in their information. I think it was Noam Chomsky who
said that one of the most. Effective ways to control people is to create the parameters of discourse and then encourage very vigilant and even aggressive heated debate within those parameters so that there would be the, excuse me, there would be the appearance of opposing views, but they're still within the parameters and those parameters are are. Given yeah, you're right, that's that was Chomsky that said that. And in a sense that's a an apartment description of
mainstream politics, isn't it? You can have as much fierce debate as you like between red and blue, Labour and Conservative, etcetera, but provided you don't talk about the incoming technocracy, that's fine. Keep all of the attention, all of the perception, etcetera focused over there and don't mention what's really going on. That's exactly how it works. OK.
So let me push back a little bit for the sake of this conversation, David. There is this, we're talking about perception management, but there is this perception that the perception managers are very advanced and very smart people. Could it also be argued with the sense of nuance that there is a lot of stupidity going on above? Yes, I mean, a couple of things to say on that. Firstly, I think that the people running these operations are extremely intelligent.
A lot of it of course centres around intelligence in the sense of British intelligence or or CIA and it's called that for a reason. And they do recruit some of the most intelligent people, typically people who have a,
shall we say, a criminal bent. You know, they, they're intelligent, but they get a kick out of being able to get away with things that they shouldn't be able to, to get away with breaking the law and, and so on. Now, that said, in Chapter 8 of my COVID book, I've got a section called Urgency and Desperation in which I argue that in many ways, the rollout of the COVID operation was rushed and botched.
I think that although those behind it had been planning it for many, many years, they, they must have been given the granular level of detail that was involved in the rollout. But the rollout of the psychological operation, I don't mean the injections it. Yeah, I'm convinced it was well planned long in advance, but the actual way in which it was done in many ways blew their cover in many ways, made people wake up at a faster rate than ever before.
They didn't succeed in getting the injections into everyone. Technocracy is being talked about now in a way which it never used to be before. And I think that it was very interesting in January 2022 when to my mind, the, the operation was seemingly pushing ahead at full force. In December 2021 in the UK, there was talk about NHS workers, the, the, the shop being being mandated for NHS workers. I mean, that's, I think it's the 5th largest employer in the world.
If that had gone ahead, that would have set such a strong precedent for other employers to follow. And I was so worried in December 2021 and then all of a sudden in January 2022, the whole thing as it had been taking place since the spring of 2020 was suddenly wound down and, and put to bed. And, and then in February, it all became about Ukraine. And that was an extraordinary moment because it was an obvious. It was a. Coincidence, David. It moved swiftly from one to the
other. And again, I'm sure that that was non accidental. But the, the, the key point here is that as successful as the drive was seeming at the time to just keep this injection campaign rolling on and on and on, they must have known that they'd reached their limit because they then stopped it and moved on to different forms of, of operation. So we must never overestimate
their power. And I think the, the fact that they stopped and again, this was around the time of the Canadian truckers convoy, right, you know, signs of mass resistance
on the ground. So I think it's important to, to keep an eye on that and to, to remember our strength and the, the, the level of resistance that there is, because it was sufficient to stop the COVID operation and it can be sufficient again in future to stop whatever they have planned for us. You talk about our strength, OK, So do we not run the risk by constantly pointing the finger at them, taking away our own responsibility and basically feeding into perpetual victimhood?
Well, I do the opposite in my work. I mean, I'm essentially trying to spread awareness and enlightenment of of what's happening. And I've said repeatedly that once you see this, there is a moral responsibility and indeed a strategic responsibility to take action. And one of the lessons of totalitarianism from the past, if you read the works of Solzhenitsyn for example, is that staying silent is not an option. Doing nothing is not an option.
Burying your head in the sand is not an option. And actually the very nature of the Omni war, as I've called it, means that this is being directed specifically against you personally and your family. So you have to fight, you have to get up and find ways of adding to the resistance. And of course what we do have on our side is numbers, 8 billion people approximately stand to assuming the estimates are correct, but stand to stand to lose from what is taking place.
And so actually, if enough people would get up and active, I think this could be rolled back very, very quickly. But it is about taking that personal responsibility. So, yeah, I mean, I'm anything but defeatist in this. You know, I can, I can see a way out. And that's why I'm encouraging people to take action, do what they can. I mean, the fact that this Omni war is being fought in so many different domains means that there must be something that you can do what?
Whatever your gift is, there must be something that you can do. Find that thing and do it. Isn't that also a danger of the whole Q thing? You know it's the white hats are coming to save us, so don't do anything. It's all 55D chess. Well, that certainly is what the purpose was, right? And the whole kind of fall of the cabal idea that, yes, you know, you can abdicate personal responsibility because the white hats are out there and they're already saving you.
They're already doing it for you. I mean, it's an extremely successful song opera. I mean, I don't know how many millions of people in the US alone bought into that. Thankfully, I think the wheels have have come off that one now and more and more people are are seeing through that. But again, This is why it's important to just understand the fundamentals of what's taking place. This is a war.
It's a war that's being waged against you and its ultimate purpose is to subjugate and enslave you through technocratic means. It's happening now. It's happening fast. The technocrats have already moved into the White House with Doge and Teal and Musk, etcetera and Palantir. The technologies are already being experimented in a military within the military capacity in in Ukraine and Gaza and elsewhere. This is all happening now. Are you going to allow it?
You know, with you? Do you consent? Do you acquiesce to this path continuing? Because if you don't, then you must resist. You must do something. But what is that something?
Well, I offer a whole range of solutions at the end of my Solari report titled Omni War, Exposing and Ending the Invisible War Against Humanity. I mean, I'm not going to prescribe a, you know, kind of a set thing, set series of things that everybody must do. But the key point that I always emphasize is that you need to look inside yourself. You need to look inside your conscience and you need to look inside your heart. And you need to ask yourself honestly, what is it that you can do?
You know, what is it that you see? What difference can you make? And that's going to be different for everybody. Some people might be good at monkey wrenching technologies. Some people might be good at going down to the local councils and trying to effect put pressure on locally because a lot of these global agendas are actually enacted at a local level. Some people might be good at doing the kind of thing that you and I do, podcasting and so on, spreading messages.
Some people might be able to write books, some people hold yellow boards. Whatever it may be, there is an absolute raft of things that you can do. Ditching your smartphone would probably be one of the most important things that you can do. Withdrawing from all forms of smart technologies is certainly highly recommended in the context of this war. Not putting up with ideas that you know to be wrong, having the courage to speak out about things.
I mean, there's so much actually that can be done. But you know, it's, it's you have to have a mindset of wanting to adopt those ideas, to take them forward and to find ways of making that difference in your own life. Again, I can't prescribe what that's going to be for each individual person, but each one of us has to take that responsibility now. But David, we all know Donald Trump is going to save us. Well, Donald Trump promised to drain the swamp in his first administration and then
proceeded to do the opposite. He said that he was going to arrest Hillary Clinton and then he had his assembled dinner audience applaud her. We know that the guy is a charlatan and a misleader, and it's incredible how many people don't see this and have fallen for it a second time. So he's back now and you know, day one. Well, that looks OK. You know, we're going to the US is going to withdraw from the The Who tick war against woke tick. All right, good day 2 mRNA AI
powered mRNA cancer vaccines. So, you know, you can see these kind of agendas just roll on regardless. You know, the 1st 90 days, you know all about doge. The you know, I dread to think how much data about the US population has now been hoovered up by Palantir. I mean, it must have had so much data before then. But you know, the integration now of this technocracy with government, I mean, that's incredible power that that company and someone like Peter Thiel now now has.
It's very, very frightening. And as I say, those kinds of companies and they're plenty kind of AI, venture capital start-ups, all linked to what's called accelerationism.
The frightening thing about all of that is the military connections and the fact that they are involved essentially in creating this control grid where they can know where everybody is, what they're doing, who they're friends and family are, all of the psychographic profiling, you know, where they like to shop, sexual preferences, you name it, a granular level of detail about everyone.
And these same companies are also developing military technologies like the facial recognition software like AI powered drones, which can be used to hunt down and kill people. It doesn't take a genius, does it, to work out where this is going, which is a long standing project. You can, you could even trace it back to IBM and the Holocaust. You can trace it back to Operation Phoenix using information and computing power to be able to identify, locate and ultimately eliminate
dissidence. So again, this is taking place now on a transnational, if not global level. It's so dystopian, it's so dark, it has to be stopped. It's weird, though, because people get so caught up in the binary of the electoral process, For example, I mean, I think any, any sane person will agree that that Biden was not pulling the strings, yet somehow they think that now Trump is pulling the string strings. And the funniest part is that
Trump is against the deep state. He's going to pull it apart. I mean, how do you how do you get to the point where you think that you become president of the country and somehow you are not part of the system? Well, again, none of it makes sense when you really think about it. But the whole thing is about misleading the masses. So Trump has made himself the figurehead of this so-called
techno populism movement. And when, you know, hundreds of millions of people are buying into him as this kind of savior type figure, and he is marching them straight into technocracy, and they don't see it and they don't understand what's going on. I mean, you know, Elon Musk openly said, you know, I'm not just MAGA, I'm dark MAGA. And the whole crowd cheers and goes wild. And they've no idea what he's talking about.
You know, this is reference to something called the Dark Enlightenment. I won't get into the details here. I did a, a roundtable on this with. That's the one. I'm glad. I'm glad, you know. Yeah, Curtis Yavin, his, his, his, his real name.
You know, these are neo reactionary figures which have kind of produced a a philosophy, if you like, which serves as an intellectual legitimization of what these technocrats are trying to do. And what Ian Davis and I both we both reach the same conclusion, having read some of this work first hand, that intellectually it's tremendously flimsy. I mean, it's just dreadful that the ideas are awful, the arguments are terrible, doesn't hang together.
But Musk and others are perfectly happy to allude to it, to legitimize what they're trying to do. And again, seeing as that you've you've just mentioned Yavin there in 2008, Curtis Yavin came out with what he called, and I quote, a humane alternative to genocide. And he was arguing back in 2008 that the advancing technologies would render more and more people unemployed and redundant. And So what do you do with this mass of people? And he came out of this horrific idea.
He referred to the kind of a lava, a cocoon that you wrap them in. And he invoked Ray Kurzweil's idea of fully immersive virtual reality. And so essentially you, you, you put them in this state where they're living in a, you call it a fake reality. You know, it seems real to them, but it's 100% fake. And, and this is, this is his idea of morality. You know, this is better than just exterminating them. He said, I mean, these are the kind of characters and ideas
that we're dealing with. But again, you see, this comes back at us in 2020 with Yuval Noah Harari, and he's talking about what he calls the useless class. You know what? What are we going to do with all these people once, once the AI takes their jobs? And what did he say? Drugs and video games. I mean, these are horrendous, horrendous. People and horrendous ideas. Can I jump in there? I've I've thought about this and I've asked a few people those
questions I'll ask you also. I don't think I've ever heard, and I'm not in any way taking their side, but I've not in any way ever heard Ferrari or Javan or Schwab would ever say I would like to see this. Are they not merely projecting what they think is coming? No, I, I, what they're trying to do is to find ways of legitimizing the kind of plans that they have in place. And ultimately this is what
technocracy entails. It is about taking away personal liberty and control over 1's life and placing it in the hands of the technocrats, which is a very small group of people which are at the controls. They have the joysticks, they are in charge of the scientific management of society. They get to decide what resources you are allocated and how far you can straight from your 15 minute city and so on. It is ultimately a, a slavery system.
And so even though they might not openly come out and say, yes, this is what I want to see, I'm pretty confident that it is. It's, it's a necessary part of what they're trying to achieve. Now, one of the rhetorical devices that they use is to talk about things as though they're inevitable. So technological determinism is a key part of this, quite apart from politics and society, et cetera, technology just has its own logic and it just kind of advances regardless, and it
always has done. And it's the technology that drives history. And that's a very kind of convenient position if you're one of them. But of course, it's not true. I mean, if you think about nanotechnology and all of the nefarious purposes to which that could be put, this didn't just happen. You know, technology just didn't kind of naturally evolve in this
way. There were deliberate political decisions taking taken around the turn of the Millennium to start investing massive amounts of money into nanotechnology research. There were agendas behind this. In other words, it was by design. And so they can hide all they like behind these narratives about, oh, this is just happening, we can't stop the March of AI, we can't etcetera, etcetera.
But actually it's all planned and it's all part of the attempt to place all power globally in the hands of very, very few people. But then is is the inevitable outcome inevitable? No, absolutely not. The outcome is always determined in the struggle. And This is why I am very keen in my work to always reiterate
the class relations behind this. And of course they've, you know, they, they do all they can to deflect away from thinking in class terms through kind of woke and gender politics, identity politics and, and all of this kind of stuff so that people think of themselves kind of individualistic terms. But fundamentally, as I say in the 1st 5 words of my book, this is a global class war that is now happening.
And there is the the the the capitalist system has become disproportionately skewed so that a tiny proportion of the world's population controls the vast majority of its wealth. And it's skewed almost exponentially as you go up towards the top 1%, the top nought .1%, nought point nought 1% and so on. So, so much of the wealth now is contained in just the hands of those very few people, and they're trying to subjugate everybody else. So the outcome is far from determined.
They want us to think that it is. They want us to think that it's hopeless. This is all part of the psychological operations. Again, I've got sections on this in my work on COVID. You know, at the time, one of the things that they kept doing is to just try and convince us. It was, it was endless. It was never going to, it was never going to stop. You know, was it Susan Mickey, for example, when she was asked in an interview, how long do you think the public should keep
wearing masks? And she just said, oh, forever. These kinds of tricks were were used repeatedly to create this demoralization, the sense of despair, the sense that things are never going to end. And it's always this way, you know, to create the sense that we can't win, that we are like children. They use a lot of infantilizing rhetoric. And meanwhile, they're kind of like these omnipotent gods that have the power to just shut down most of the world's economy overnight.
This is what they want us to believe. But actually the the objective reality is completely different that you have a bunch of very desperate people trying to pull off something which is so audacious. I mean, trying to collapse liberal democracy and replace it with technocracy. I mean, you are attacking human freedom. You're attacking nation, you're attacking family, you're attacking all of the values that both left and right stand for. I mean, nobody has anything to
gain from this. So I think that the more people see it, the more pushback there will be and the more futile these these technocratic agendas will become. So again. I'm optimistic, but you've mentioned liberal democracy a few Times Now. I personally am not a fan of democracy at all. Why do you think the destruction of liberal democracy is a bad
thing? Well, that's a a really interesting question, and I agree that liberal democracy as it has developed over the course of the 20th century has essentially been a cover for capitalist relations, which are tremendously exploitative and predatory and legitimized also. Voting. Voting is just theatre. Yes, it is. Yeah, I I agree. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's, it's far from an ideal system. It's certainly a lot better than than Technocracy.
Either way. I, I think it's finished because, I mean, the powers that be have, have have used liberal democracy as their their chosen kind of form of political regime for for many decades. And even they are now trying to dismantle it. So quite apart from the fact that it's really always been a sham and it's always been, you know, the, the manufacturing of consent, you know, these ideas
were around 100 years ago. It's amazing, you know, just how successful this has been over the course of a century to persuade people that this is really in their interests. But either way, it's, it's on its way out now. The, the, the big question is what comes next? And this could go in multiple different directions. I mean, yes, the the the dystopian hellish vision of a global technocracy is 1 outcome chaos as as things spiral out of
control is, is another option. I would like to think that collectively we are able to come up with a more positive vision towards which we can build and work. And that is what I think is sadly lacking at the moment. There's so much talk about the darker aspects, what they are doing about their psychological operations, etcetera. What's really needed is a positive narrative of our own. I mean, if you think about Bob Moran's picture, the good Reset,
yeah. I mean, that's an example of, of of trying to do this, imagining what the world could look like, providing some kind of positive vision for us to aspire to.
So if I were to kind of, you know, be thinking strategically about what's needed next, you know, I, I think that we need the best thinkers out there to be actually coming up with that kind of a vision and something that people can really, really buy into because there's too much negativity, There's too much kind of. Blackpilling. Blackpilling, Exactly. But again, you know, you think
about what we've got here. The technologies that exist in the world today, even though they are being put to very nefarious purposes, could do a tremendous amount of good. I mean, if you have that amount of information about everybody, surely it becomes possible to distribute wealth more equitably
among society. You know, what need is there for, for, for wars, really, if, if this technology were to be expropriated from the hands of this kind of minuscule, very nefarious group, the world could be so much better, unimaginably better. You know, there'd be an
abundance of wealth. I mean, Katherine Austin Fitz has talked about this very often that the lengths that they go to, to suppressors, I mean, just the amount of money it must cost, just maintain this, you know, these relentless propaganda campaigns and the psychological operations and and so on. You know, they have to go to so much effort and cost to keep the global population in check. Imagine what we could do without all of those constraints.
I mean, the future could be incredible, but how many people ever really think that way? I think we need to start adopting a much more positive mindset if we're to bring people with us. I think it was Yuri Besmanov in his interview with G Edward Griffin back and was it 83 or 8484? We spoke about various characteristics of, of of control mechanisms, which I think you've echoed in your work, things like demoralization and destabilization and disorientating people and that
sort of thing. So one obvious way to look at this is to make sure that you are not demoralized and that you're not disorientated. Know who you are, know what your meaning and purpose is when you wake up in the morning. And for goodness sake, don't doom scroll. You know, get fit, go into the sun, eat healthy, strengthen your your family connections and your friendships and your networks. It seems pretty obvious.
Yeah, it does. And again, they've done their best to make sure that we do none of those things. I mean, you know, the whole lockdown idea, you know, stay indoors, don't see the sun, don't exercise, don't see your family. I mean, you know, it's horrendous what they tried to do, the addictive power of social media. Highly, highly problematic. I mean, I don't know how much time the average person spends on social media per day instead of real social connections.
And the doom scrolling is a, is a, is a terrible phenomenon. I mean, this is all known to have, you know, bad effects on people's mental health. And even worse than that, you are essentially trapping yourself in their technocratic system because the news feeds that you see, etcetera on Facebook and X or what you know, wherever you're getting in news, they're all manipulated through algorithms. Whatever tweets or whatever you put out, you've no idea how many
people they're reaching. And indeed, it's becoming pretty obvious now, you know, with the Linda Yacarino principle of freedom of speech, but not reach. You can say whatever you like. Yeah, free speech go, man, but no one's going to hear you. So why? You know, why would you deliberately put yourself in that kind of digital prison space? I mean, I'm deliberately not on social media for that very
reason. The amount of time that people spend on their smartphones and the fact that people, you can't live without them. I mean, this is a form of addiction. You know, if you can't drive from A to B without using a sat NAV, you, you've got a problem. You know, if you can't go to bed without taking your phone with you, you've got a problem. If you can't lead your life without using multiple apps all the time, you've got a problem.
Because you are increasingly you are consenting and acquiescing and integrating yourself into that technocratic system. And the more you do so, the more easier it becomes to manage you. And that's before we get into the, the whole area of, of technologies going under the skin and, and intercorporeal technologies. So people have to take that responsibility again and withdraw from the everything that that points towards technocracy and do the kind of things that you were just describing.
David, how can I follow you? Best place is on sub stack D hughes.substack.com or David A hughes.net. David A Hughes, thank you for joining me in the trenches. Pleasure, Joe. Thanks very much.