The Battle of Ideas—with Jerm

Hello, I'm Charles Mallett with the UK column interview today. I have with me Jeremy Nell, or you may know him as Germ, A cartoonist and podcaster par excellence and a man who is accustomed to asking the questions. But today the boot will be on the other foot and he's going to need to come up with the answers. Germ, thank you very much for joining me and a very, very warm Welcome to UK column. Charles, thanks for having me. I just want to say I I actually forgot how to pronounce your

surname. I'm so glad you said Mallet because I was going to say Malay and make you sound very fancy. If you're in the Northern hemisphere, it depends which side of the English Channel you're on. If you're on the right hand side, then you'd have been completely correct. So I, I don't think that's, that's not going to count against you. But actually you bring me neatly as though we've rehearsed it into the first question, which is to do with division.

Because what I'd like to do is, is go back some time and I'd like your perspective because, you know, this is an international audience that's going to be listening to this. But the UK column audience is is largely British. You're South African. In your perspective as somebody growing up in post apartheid South Africa, how did the country deal with that process of reinventing itself after

apartheid? Just technically, I also grew up in apartheid, not just post apartheid, but during the height of it, which was in the 80s. It's a, it's an interesting question. It's a very, very layered question because I don't think South Africa has come out of it with any great degree of success. There's the term like rainbow nation, which I think Nos Mandela coined. It really doesn't mean anything. It's just, it's just marketing hype.

The, the, the country in many ways is better than what it was, but it's also worse than what it was. It just depends on who you're asking. You know, if you look at the data, one of the big claims is that it benefited white people. And the irony is that it, you know, economically and financially, you can clearly see that it didn't because the, the incomes were not only peaking, but they were, they were decreasing.

Because obviously if you have a system that's isolated from the world, you, you will run out of resources. You, you, you need to integrate with the world in order to grow. And once, once apartheid was ended and sort of quote unquote, democracy began in South Africa, you can see that salaries all over the place increased, including white people. So you could even argue that post apartheid was better for for white S Africans than apartheid.

But crime is also exceptionally high as a result post apartheid. And you kind of wonder why is that? Is that domestic or is it a foreign backed? I don't know. But crime is unbelievably out of control in South Africa. And you know, if if you live here, you have to be quite streetwise. Now, I'm not saying that it's a war zone. And if it were, I would have emigrated. I, I, you know, I love, I love South Africa.

It is my home. But I also want to point out that social media is not a mirror image of reality. It's sort of a, it's an amplification of an extreme minority view. If you only followed X, you would think that this is a complete war zone. And it's just, it's just a, it's, you know, Cowboys and Indians gun shootouts every single day. No, that's not the case at all. It's I, I think race relations are by far better than what the media will have you believe.

And I think it's only on the fringe. It's in certain areas, it's in pockets. And certainly, certainly there's a lot of political influence in that. Because I think if you leave people alone, they tend to get on fine. And, and, and I think that is maybe not just endemic to South Africa, but probably everywhere. You know, if you just leave people alone, they tend to, they tend to be fine.

You know, people get on people don't want to fight with, with one another, which is why I think a lot of the stuff is, is, is externally triggered. So I'm, I'm, I'm still happy living in South Africa despite all the warts and, and I really do appreciate the, the, the fact that we can trade with the rest of the world and travel. I mean, it was very difficult in the in the 80s. Yeah, absolutely.

And in fact, you, you know, you bring me on to what I wanted to talk about from exactly that, that, that, that reality, but specifically to do with not being, I suppose for want of a better word interfered with. And you cite, well, you, I think you described South Africa as being a, a broken country in some respects. And therefore the, the resilience that that builds. You just explain a bit more. What do you mean by that? And how? How do you see that taking effect, sort of, either in a

good way or a bad way? Yeah. So I've often said that I prefer South Africa as a failed state. And South Africa is a failed state. I think by by any metric, in fact, I think every African state is effectively a failed state. And I like that because what it means COVID was a great example of this, is that it showed that an inept, ineffective, useless government wasn't nearly good enough to impose, you know,

hardcore vaccine mandates. I think South Africa was probably one of the lowest vaccine uptakes in the world. And Africa as a whole generally had a very, very low vaccine uptake during the COVID era. Whereas I've got, you know, ex expat friends who live in Canada and Australia and even the UK, and they all said the same thing to me.

You know, it sucks being, you know, in a country with a highly effective government because they've become very, you know, efficient at, at things like mandates and, and locking you down. So there's a, there's a strange ironic sense of freedom within chaos, if that makes sense. That's so that's kind of what I mean. And, and I guess a byproduct of that, Charles, is that it forces

you to become self reliant. It forces you not to trust the state because the state isn't really going to be there for you. You, you kind of, you kind of have to make things happen for yourself and, and it's so it, it forces you into a, into a state of or into a sense of, of

community driven collaboration. You know, you have to figure things out because you know, when you got potholes in the roads and you got St lights that don't work, you have to then go and full those potholes because the government is not going to do that anytime soon. And you have to figure out how to make the streets, you know, look better. And so generally, I think there is a, a, a sense of, of independence, therefore that comes with a failed state.

Yeah. And I think that certainly for the UK audience, I think there's something that people really need to bear in mind, that sort of distinction between a failed state and perhaps a failing state. You know, here we're very much in the pothole zone, but not having gone as far as people doing something about it, that there is still, I think, an enormous reliance upon the state in whatever sort of form it takes.

But so on that, you know, that that greater picture with with resilience, I think people are very quick to bemoan how pathetic younger generations are and how they don't, you know, they aren't growing up to learn the lessons of the past and this and the other. What's your take on that in not not just South Africa, but sort of Southern Africa or Africa, you know, I mean, other parts of the world.

How do you see that? Something I have noticed is that there is a, there's a strong victimhood mentality that exists particularly in Western countries where, where they have, where they have everything. You, you sit back and you moan, you become a keyboard warrior. You know, look, this is, this is broken. Somebody must do something about it while I enjoy my my McDonald's and this it's it's OK.

I mean, that is the way it is. But I think because, because this is yo yo effect of how societies work. Excuse me, that decline will at some point occur. And then you wonder how will those people handle that decline? I, you know, I sometimes joke and I say where Europe is now is where perhaps South Africa was, you know, two decades ago and, and lessons that that Europeans could learn, you know, simply by looking at, at our history and perhaps even the states. I don't know.

I don't exactly know that the, the, the, the, the dynamics in, in the US. But what, what I do feel is that I don't know also if it applies to Eastern countries. This is this is outside of my understanding, but I can certainly speak to some degree in the West. And I also want to add a disclaimer. I don't know if South Africa or African countries fall under the western label. I suppose it depends on on what sort of criteria you you want to use.

Maybe I can say I am western, maybe I can say I'm not western, I don't know. But one thing is for certain is that I see a lot of lazy, lazy people coming out now, the sort of post 2000 generation, huge amounts of sort of this TikTok Facebook Reels mindset where you just kind of your, your hand motion becomes part of your, of your lifestyle. You know, you just scroll, scroll, scroll and you'd end up

doing nothing. And so this is there's a strange yo yo effect in which people once were very much driven to solving their own problems, are now relying on other people to solve their problems, outsourcing their thinking, outsourcing who they are, outsourcing their identity even. And, and I find that happening here also, certainly in the middle to upper classes. I don't know, Charles, if that is if that is a geopolitical thing or cultural or if it's just the nature of, of, of wealth.

I don't know. What do you think? Well, certainly all pervasive and I think that's the that's the issue. I suppose it's just interesting to see how abruptly what you describe of the South Africa that you grew up in can. Be. Swept away by by a movement like that. And I think I would say from a British perspective, there's that hope that you want to look at another country and see that it is different and it is responding differently to those

pressures. Because of course, the other thing in a way, and that with, with the either smaller or failed idea of the state. What, what that does create for, for so many African countries is masses of space for the so called philanthropists or NGOs or whoever, you know, and they are able to wreak havoc for want of a better term. I mean, is that, is that something you see? And how, how's, how's that sort of in South Africa now?

Yeah, it's not so much, I think a consequence of a failed state, but a consequence of democracy. So wherever you have a democratic state, in my view, you have a an open gate to infiltration of the state itself because you have financial interests, you have corporate interests, you have technocratic public private partnership interests.

You know, if you look at, if you look at South Africa's sort of economic heart, you'll see that our minds, which is part of that heart are very much not South African. They, I mean, I think our biggest mine is called Anglo American. And, and we, we can, we can, we can go down, down various rabbit holes to see who's behind or at the top of of those mines. But what's interesting is just, that's not unique to South Africa. That's unique to wherever there's a, a democratic state.

So I I'm very, very critical of democracy as a whole, but I mean, I don't think I'm special network. Plato wrote about the problems with with the democratic idea long time ago. So I think by by virtue of a country being democratic, it opens itself up to the infiltration and interests of of those who don't really care about sovereignty. Because at the end of the day, the president of a democracy is just is just rent seeking for at

least four or five years. And so his entire existence is based around those four or five years and hoping that you can get another four or five years through excellent marketing. Yeah, very well put. And of course, the, the other point about democracy really is that it should be a system that is accountable. And certainly for you, part of holding a democracy or indeed a system to account has been via your cartoons, which obviously you know, you've been doing for

a long, long time. Talk about your how you broke into that space and what what pushed you to to do that in the first place. Firstly, your opening there was, was great. I think democracies also do have a good side and they allow for or they should, they should allow for the critique or the criticism of authority. I mean, you, you can't do that in China. Now, I like China for, for many reasons, but one of the reasons that I don't like China is that you can't really criticise the

government. So yeah, you got to choose a battle. So I, I would do terribly as a cartoonist in, in China. Thankfully I can do pretty well in South Africa because we have such a useless government that they can't even sue me because it's just, it just doesn't really work all that well, you know, in, in, in this, in, in this kind of setup. So I can criticise the government quite quite easily and, and quite freely. In actual fact, I've got a lot more freedom in my work here

than I do in many countries. I would even go as fast saying Charles, that I've probably got more more freedom in my work than than in your country. Based on what I understand. I could be wrong, but how I got into it was was really very boring. It was just a case of I've always loved cartoons from a kid. I used to draw in my Bible in Sunday school and, and I remember just wanting to, to, to just draw cartoons.

And when I, when I was retrenched from my corporate job in 2005, I was working in sort of mobile research and technology. And at that stage, smartphones hadn't really come out yet. So they're still the old sort of Nokias with, with buttons on them. When I was retrenched because the whole industry was changing, I figured, well, maybe I could make a career out of this.

I am a failed art student, so I had something behind me, but perhaps it was pretty punk Rock, You know, to, to go into art when you failed art and and I was advised ever to go into art. So I thought, well, this is, this is quite rebellious. Maybe, maybe I can make this work.

And and yeah, and I did and a bunch of editors sort of bit and and I started having my work published and I wasn't really making political comments or, or, or any type of sort of current affair based based commentary at that stage until a couple years later when when I was contacted by a, a major newspaper and they wanted me to to draw daily for them. And they said, look, we like your style. Would you like to comment on the politics of the day?

And I said, look, I don't really even know where I stand or what I believe in or anything like that. And they said, and, and my editor at the time had a really great comment, which I've never forgotten. And he said, look, knock them down when they're up and help them up when they're down. And, and that, that kind of formed the foundation for, for, for what was going to be my

political career. And after that, I, I, you know, I won awards and published books and eventually in the sort of 20 tens, I started formulating my kind of my ideological outlook. However, I don't speak only for myself here, but I think my ideological outlook completely changed around 2020, like I think many, many others around the world, when you suddenly realise, wait a minute, something's not right here. So that's the, that's the sort of the, the backdrop of my, of

my cartooning story. And I mean, I've published, I think close to 10,000 cartoons since then. And, and they've been translated and been to different publications around the world and all that. So it just became a love that I just pursued, you know?

Perhaps hard to say with any certainty of hitting objectivity in in hindsight, but but as that period of time developed before we got to 2020, were you aware that you were developing in so far as how you were thinking about things before you were translating them into cartoon format? Yes, I, I would have, I would have classified myself, I think for the longest time as libertarian or sort of kind of conservative ish. But I've come to realise that those terms don't mean anything anymore.

Charles. A lot of the stuff just these are just false dichotomies or as I forget who it is now, somebody said a few years ago, false binaries. But basically these are these are, I mean, we started off the conversation about division. And I think these are interesting divisions, left, right. I don't think the people to the left and right of me are my enemies. I think those who are trying to take away my sovereignty and my, my ability to live a free life.

I think those are my enemies, not, not people who arguing about gender because we can still, we can still chat about

that. And they're not, they're not removing anything from me, you know, so, so I'll, I think at that stage before 2020, I didn't really consider the, the sort of interwoveness of the, of the international web of what's the, what's the word I'm looking for, Charles, this, this sort of deep, dark connectivity of, of the oligarchical hierarchy, shall I say, of, of how things, for example, I would have thought in, let's say 2016, this pick a year, I would have

thought that the Kruger National Park, which is our, our, our big, our, our biggest game park and one of the biggest game parks in the world. And I might add, probably one of the happiest places in the world. I thought that was just, you know, run by the government and, and, you know, and, and it had people doing their best to, to keep it operational post 2020. I, I come to realise through research that it's not really run by the South African

government. It has UN fingers in it and it has, you know, CITES, for example. And it has so many other interests that don't really care about animals or South Africa, but rather, I don't know, land, possible land opportunities and other things. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's never as simple as, oh, it's just a park that's run by the government. It's, it's, it's more complicated than that. And that's the nature of everything. Everything is more nuanced and more complicated.

And that's, and that's kind of where I found myself heading off to 2020. Yeah, you, you certainly haven't. We'll get to that in a second. But no, you're absolutely right. And I think you're scratching beneath the surface almost anywhere, and you will find something that perhaps you didn't expect or you didn't want necessarily to find. And you spoke a moment ago about South Africa feeling more free than than the UK, perhaps in terms of public publishing some materials and whatnot.

I mean, I think I would absolutely agree with you. But on the censorship front, which you know is now such a hot topic, particularly in this sphere. It was that something that that you did battle with at all at at that time, sort of prior to 2020, was censorship really a consideration for you or indeed for the the media in South Africa? Yes, I mean for the longest time I was working in the mainstream media and the mainstream media

itself self censors. And in many ways, self censorship is actually more destructive than a state sanctions censorship, because what it does, I'm sure you'll agree, excuse me, is that it causes a a collective sense of silence of people not wanting to discuss anything. And nobody's nobody's actually forcing them to do that. They're just choosing not to speak about things. And and so you start kicking the can down the road and you start

sweeping things under the rug. And you really shouldn't have to. So I found myself in a situation where I was self centering because there are, there are a couple of things in South Africa that you just can't do. And and then the publications themselves would also get

worried about certain things. And, and not even, not even hot button issues like let's say I don't know unions, you know, I found myself criticising unions and the, and the certain newspapers would, would think this is a little bit, you know, edgy. We're going to get too much

pushback from the unions. So let's not run something like that, you know, or I found, for example, in 2020 before, I mean, one of the, I think that was maybe the last year that I was working in the mainstream media as a cartoonist. I was drawing for one of the largest papers in the country and I, it was just before lockdowns.

I think it was, I think our lockdowns came in the same week as your lockdowns in the UK. And about two weeks prior to that I drew our president pulling a mask over his eyes and saying something along the lines of we are ready. Because at that stage I kind of thought that this was a real thing. I kind of thought maybe there's a bit of overreaction, but it was a real thing. The paper decided not to publish it.

They wanted a sense of this because I thought it was an unfair criticism of the president, which is absurd. But not just that. Two weeks later on live TV, he did exactly that. He, he pulled the mask over his eyes accidentally and he's, he fumble and it became a big joke and a big meme. So that, so the joke was that in many ways that I'm, you know, I the, what's the, what's it saying with the, with reality becomes or, or, or humour becomes reality or something to that effect.

But I had predicted accidentally what was going to happen and it should have been published. It shouldn't have been self censored. And it wasn't long after that when when I was fired because the publication felt that this was a serious thing and we shouldn't joke about it. And that's not even state sanctioned censorship. So now we now we see this, this, this weird domino effect of fear perpetuating fear, which is I think very destructive.

Hugely saying that the self censorship, you're absolutely right. And I think it applies to more than just censorship because going back to lockdowns, I mean, certainly what we saw here was the the insinuation that something ghastly was about to happen and that the government really desperately trying to hold back. And then the next thing you knew was that organisations, and the one that springs to mind here was the church was shutting the door before it had even been asked to.

And so yes, you're, you're completely right. And, and, and yeah, it's a very dangerous area that's on the South. But this brings me into, you know, what germ warfare really is, is all about, which is, as you quite rightly describe it, the information war. Now, I think my feeling is that it absolutely is an information

war. But in large part, the people that are, I suppose, caught up in it, the the BLOB don't appreciate that it's an information war because they have no idea of the manipulation of the information that they are receiving. Now going back to that time in 2020 and, you know, looking towards where you have gone with germ warfare, what was it that that did push you towards, you know, the direction you've gone in and, and realising to what extent there was this information war.

I think the whole thing with the lockdowns, I think that was for many people just a trigger. Like, for example, let's just start at the most basic. I'd said a moment ago that our lockdown started in the same week as your lockdowns. How, how does that even happen? Is it just coincidence, which the average quote unquote, normie would would think, Oh, you know, that's just, it's just the government's caring about the people. Well, most of the world did this

very coincidentally. Then in that case, I mean, it's one hell of a coincidence that the presidents are just announcing lockdowns all over the place using the same language, social distancing, a term that I've never in my life heard before 2020. It turns out that it was used in a movie that came out I think in 2011 or 2012. I think it's called Contagion, which I had never heard of. And then I watched it during lockdown and it freaked me out because it was exactly the same thing.

It was a corona virus outbreak. They had to, people had to get locked in their homes and the solution was a vaccine. I think it was was in the movie. It's freaky. And I remember, I remember thinking, OK, all right, yeah, virus from a weight market. My understanding at that stage

was extremely primitive. I thought, it's those disgusting Chinese again, you know, with the with the, with the blood everywhere and they filth, filth and and viruses and bacteria and everything just, you know, jumping onto people. I mean, that's kind of what I thought because I just had no knowledge of what you know, of reality. And then very quickly I started thinking about this, like what northern Italy this is, this is weird outbreak.

And then suddenly Trump's announcing closure of, of flights with China. And I'm, and I'm that stage. I didn't realise that perhaps there's there's an anti China narrative that's that's coming from somewhere and suddenly everybody's getting locked down at the same time. And then within a few months, I found myself questioning the very nature of reality. Like what, how, how does this even happen? How does the whole world do this

at the same time? There has to be some sort of top down collaboration, you know, and, and then, and then then when you start looking into it, you go, OK, I see here. So The Who didn't. And then the you know, and then you start, you start joining lots and lots of dots. And then, of course, when you speak about it, you're not quite sure what's going on yet. And people like it's just a conspiracy theory. You're just a nut case. OK, but explain, explain the most basic things you had.

How, how, and nobody's able to give an answer. And so then you, you know, I find myself just digging more and more and more. And then in, in my podcast, which I started in 2019, just by the way, as an extension to my cartoon work, it's just a, just an expansion of, of, of ideas, which, which is what cartoons are, you know, they're just

ideas that are on paper. And so I decided to, you know, put this into podcast form and, and then a guest might mention something that doesn't seem in any way connected to the coronavirus. And then suddenly that leads to another train of, of thought that makes sense. And then before you know it, Charles, I'm sitting, you know, discussing concepts like like who controls Europe?

And it all started with lockdown, you know, and, and then and then I suddenly realised, OK, so there must be, there must be some truth to this. I'm sure there's a lot of nonsense here also. And so like a, like a civil got to philtre through what's, what's true and what's not true. But, but the point is the, the, the, the shadow that gets cast over this is that nothing is really what it seems, whether by design or emergence or a

combination. But there's a lot of fabrication of, of what you think is, is real. And you suddenly you realise that the Matrix was not a movie, but it was a documentary. You know what I mean? I do I, I think a lot of the audience will, will absolutely understand exactly what you mean.

But and so going back, you know, because that's such an interesting transition period to go from having started a podcast in 2019 and then and then to take that forward and realise that your view was what it was from 2020.

But but those those around you that were contacts either within or through the mainstream media, did did you find anybody there that was similarly questioning things or was it was similar to the to the UK where there was just, you know, there's, there's kind of there's one way with this and that's that. Very few, Charles, very, very few. Nobody wants to be labelled. See, this is the problem. People are very scared of, of, of being ostracised, you know.

So I, I'm trying to think where I got the, the, the concept of the cathedral. I think it was Manches Mohlbag. What's his real name? Forget now, a great sort of philosophical thinker, but he goes by the name of Manches Mohlbag online. And he, he wrote a lot about something called dark Enlightenment and whatever else, all these interesting philosophies, but he, he made a very good analogy. He compared what we're talking about now to the cathedral, calls it the cathedral.

And if you go against the, the doctrine of the cathedral, you become an apostate, you get kicked out and, and what, what, what, what makes the cathedral probably a combination of government, media and academia. And that is not necessarily a, a, a, a collaboration of the three that could all be working independently, but the kind of they feed off one another just by virtue of, of, of their position in, in, in the establishment, in the established space and

conventional space. And so, you know, like the media will, will reference academia when it's talking about contagion or something like that. And the government will, will amplify that by making announcements, etcetera. And so they kind of all feed on one another constantly. And if you question that, you know, you, you get kicked out, you get shunned, you get called a conspiracy theorist and people are very scared of that. People don't want to be kicked out.

They don't, they don't know what to do once they're outside the doors. You know, where, where do I go from here? You know, now my people are inside there and I'm actually, and I'm alone. And so it's very difficult, very, very difficult to challenge an authoritative view on something. You know, this came from a, a, a weak market. That was the view in 2020. This was a weak market. Then towards the end of 2020, people started going.

But how old? And maybe it's a lab leak, which I think is also part of a, of a, of a psychological operation to, to some degree, but none nonetheless. Anybody in 2020 saying maybe this was leaked from a laboratory? No, no, no, that's just bonkers. That's bonkers. But now it's official U.S. government policy, it's no longer bonkers.

And now suddenly you have hordes of, of, of what I call personal personality cultists because not everybody supports Trump as a personality cultist, but there is a strong personality cult that's attached to Trump. It's an amazing thing to watch. They'll support, he can say anything. And then suddenly they'll change their position that they previously had and so, and now agree with him. And so, you know, it's kicking the can down the road again. Now suddenly the lab leak is, is a real thing.

But the point I'm making is that if you mentioned it in the middle of 2020, you were considered a conspiracy theorist, you know, and, and so, and So what, What I find is that so few people want to go outside of that Overton window. They don't want to, they don't want to go anywhere near what would be considered unacceptable speech. We need to be within the boundaries of acceptable speech.

I think it was Noam Chomsky who who said that a wonderful way to control the narrative is by is by knowing where the boundaries of the narrative are and encouraging fierce debate within those parameters so that even people inside those parameters look like they're arguing for what's true. But meanwhile, the truth is sitting outside of those, you know, those parameters. And, and, and I think that's a classic example of, of what's been happening over the last few

years. People are scared to be outside of that Overton window. They don't want to be outside the the doors of the cathedral. And so therefore you'll always find yourself as a minority view if you if you going against that sort of conventional or established thought.

Yeah, indeed. And and on that, you know, going outside of established thought, you've just referred to psychological operations and you've spoken to an inordinate number of people now by your podcast of all sort of colours and creeds and philosophical beliefs. What to you is at the heart of a successful psychological operation? I mean, how is it done and to what effect I suppose. I don't know. I'm still trying to figure that one out.

I don't know, Charles, how it's possible that people around me, and I guess you know, you'll say the same thing, I'm sure, but how is it possible that so few people around me can see through some of the stuff? How is it that the majority don't how, how is it that you, we could climb on an aeroplane, let's have 180 people or something and everybody's wearing a mask. I'm, I'm questioning, they're just wearing it, you know, OK, I'll, I'll wear a mask.

And, and they don't question it. They just think this is what, this is what you must do. And the handful of people that do go, this doesn't make any sense, You know, even if, even if, even if it was a real virus, OK, let's just, let's just assume that even if there is a real virus travelling around in the air, a cloth mask does nothing in, in any sane person

knows this. You can just open up a book from when you're at school, a biology book to, to see this, this, you know, the scale of, of, of what these things are or claim to be. But you know, everybody just like sheep, cattle lining up for, you know, for the slaughter, they just happily stand in the line and, and, and just go through the night. And it's something that is, is that has been something I've

been trying to figure out. And that's why I've spoken to people like Matthias Desmet and, and others, Peter Reagan also to try and figure out how is it that people just don't question things in the main, you know, why is it always, as Matthias Desmet said, around 30% of people will, will question and, and, and try and see beyond and, and will it ever go beyond 30%?

It doesn't really seem likely because if you notice now people seem to be falling back into those, into those sort of dreamlike states again when it comes to various, various issues. Sudden, suddenly the people that you thought were quote unquote awake are now, you know, falling asleep again. And how like, how does this happen? This is something I don't know. It's, it's, it's, it's for me, it's fascinating.

And I certainly appreciate the input from people like Matthias and, and people like Peter Brig and who, who, who they, they talk about free floating anxiety and, and the need, the need then to be LED and, and perhaps, perhaps that's what Yuri Besmanov was referring to back in his great interview.

I think it was 19, ironically, 1984, I think it was with the G Edward Gryphon. I think when you said that when you have people in a state of anxiety or nervousness or, or, or uncertainty, they're, they're malleable. You can control them with a lot more ease rather than people who are, you know, like, for example, the LGBTQ agenda is about creating confusion with within identity.

When you, when you don't know who you are, you can become controlled quite easily because you no longer have control over yourself because you don't know what you who or what you are. And I think that that can be expanded and amplified into into sort of a collective also. And maybe maybe that plays into the idea that that you just have masses of of sheep. I don't want to say mass psychosis, by the way, because my tears was very clear that it's not a psychosis

necessarily. It's more like a hypnosis. And and people like David Icke, for what it's worth, have also said much the same thing. Yeah. And I think it's very difficult to go back and be certain about anything that's written historically. But of course, there, there is very little to suggest that those percentages that you refer to have ever been any different. And that human nature is just such that we are structured as society to be predisposed to either behave like this or, or

like that. Now I yes, I mean you identify something very pertinent with the, the suggestion that people are, for want of a better phrase, sort of falling back to sleep. How does that fit in with your categorization of the various coloured pills? You articulate, I think very well, the red, black and white pilled sort of elements of the population. How do you see that fitting in with the the falling backs of

sleep thing? OK, so so just for clarity, what those pulls mean, they obviously come from the matrix. The blue pull is it the world is as you think it is, right? You wake up and what you see is what you get. And of course, when you take the red pull them, the as the metaphor goes, you you pull, you open the curtain, you pull back the curtain and you see what's really going on behind the

scenes. But the problem with that, and this is what sort of Internet culture has has kind of expanded on because the the movie didn't really do this.

But if you get too red pulled, so to speak, it can become quite depressing because you start seeing a lot of nefarious activity and, and sort of cynical behaviour and, and it's very dark and you, you can get caught up in depression and nihilism and that and that that can lead you to what's, what would be known as the Blackpool where it's kind of defeatist and you, you don't really see a point to anything. You may just pour a glass of wine and enjoy the enjoy the

decline. But that's, I think that's, that's being a loser. I think that that is a terrible, terrible way to approach life. I just, I don't want to be around people like that. It's, it's just too, it's just too depressing. And so the white pool is basically then the follow on from the black pool when you realise, well, hold on a second, I've got all this information. I feel more enlightened now. What can I do with it? And it's, it's, it's about overcoming.

And that then leads you to things like, well, let me wake up with a purpose. What am I going to do today? Am I going to be defeated? Am I going to be beaten today? No, I'm going to, I don't know. Let's just let's start off with most basic things. I'm going to eat. I'm going to eat better so that I don't become fat and, and, and diabetic and, and you know, and get cancer. Let me, let me take control of my health. Let me go to the gym and we'll get fit.

We'll go for a run. Let me go outside in the sun. Let me go back into nature, you know, all the, all these kind of things. These are white pull, these are ways to win. It's about, it's about not being

defeated. And, and I think everybody can very easily and probably should go through a black pull phase, But but you know, get out of it as quick as possible because I was on antidepressants in 2020, You know, I was taking all sorts of pharmaceuticals and, and I realised that this is no good. This is no good. And, and, and I kind of woke up and made the choice to, to take control of my, of my life and of my personal being. You live once, make it, make it

meaningful. And, and, and so that led me to, to seeing so much good again within that darkness. You know that that that you see, when you pull back the curtain and you and you see, you see reality for what it is. And and then suddenly you can, you can take a more, I don't know, you can take a more Marcus Aurelius approach and go, well, I'm not going to let that actually, you know, break me. I'm going to try and take those obstacles and and turn them into

into features. You know, I'm going to overcome them and and I'm going to succeed. And, and I think that is at the heart, it plays into the idea again, of self reliance and independence. And you can kind of maybe see how that horseshoes into the whole, into the whole celebration, quote unquote, to some degree of a failed state. Because in many ways, I don't want to live in a failed state either, by the way, you know, it, it would be nice to have things working.

You know, it would be nice to have trains that that are safe and that can get from point A to point B, you know, and buses and all that kind of stuff. But there is, there's also a reason to, to, to, to, to welcome adversity. And, and I think, and I think that's part of the white pull mindset. So, for example, people around me who, who did perhaps wake up during the COVID era, many have stayed awake and that's wonderful.

But those who seem to be falling asleep again, I can decide how bad, how badly I want to be around them. I can, I can, you know, I can either cherish their their friendship if it's worth it, or, you know, spend this time with him so that so that I don't get that sort of negative influence, or I can, you know, continue trying to, to win them over, which is part of the battle of ideas. So I don't know if that answers your question. It's a very, very, very sort of philosophical answer.

Yeah. I mean, I, I'm, I'm certainly not putting it out there suggesting there is an answer to it, but I, I think it's completely fascinating and everyone will have their own feelings on what you've just said. And I think, I think it's very powerful. But just on the specifics of it, I mean, you've alluded the fact you were using pharmaceutical products that you're not using anymore.

What have been the big things for you that have actually really affected change in your life over that period that you really do sort of point to as being the the the big ones? I guess another way of asking that question is what, what sort of big red poles have you swallowed and you know, and, and being white pulled on? I think for me, Charles, just very, very anecdotally speaking, health has been a big one.

So having taken antidepressants, which are addictive and are a terrible thing and nobody should stay on those things for any length of time, you know, and things like proton pump inhibitors and all that kind of stuff, right? I was taking all of that stuff prescription and it's very difficult to get off that off that stuff.

But once you realise that you actually can control your health through your through environment, through your diet, better sleeping, try try not to get too stressed out. You know, it's an ongoing journey. There's no overnight fix it. It's this is a personal thing. This is a journey that each person decides to take upon

them, you know, upon themselves. But, you know, weaning myself off antidepressants and, and, and other and other pharmaceuticals was not easy, but I was replacing a lot of that with routines, you know, things like atomic habits that James Clear writes about and forming healthy habits. And also, I'm just on a personal level, finding myself really loving my wife, you know, waking up in the morning and looking at

her going, you know what? I'm so blessed to, to wake up next to this beautiful woman, you know, and when you're taking pharmaceuticals and you and you're wired and you're so caught up in, in the big thing that's going on the whole time, you lose track of what's important and what matters. And I just went straight back to those fundamentals, the things that just make everything worth living. And then the, you know, the words of, of I think it's Stephen Corey. I think that's his COVID.

Is that his name or the guy who wrote the seven habits profound, profound book? You know, it's a self help book and, and most of it's chunk, you know, it's all in the self help category. But something that he that I've never forgotten that he, that he said in that book is you can't, you can't win the big battles. You can fight them, but you can't win them. You can't change your government. You, you Charles, you can't go

and change your government. You can't influence change other than your immediate environment, right? You can only change what's immediate to you. You can fight the bigger battles. And that's what we are doing. You know, you and I, we're chatting and this goes out and people think about it and they, you know, and they get involved in things and all that, but

that's outside of your control. And it's, and it's that it is that paradigm shift that that occurred to me during the COVID era that I realised I can't change the lockdowns. They're going to happen whether or not I'm getting angry and upset about them and, and, and I end up losing, you know, I'm the one who gets no sleep at night and I'm freaking out. And this is, you know, nobody high up cares.

I'm just a number, but I care. And so that was when I realised I've got to focus inwards again and influence change on that which is close to me. And that for me is what is what became pretty powerful, if that makes sense. And then you can, you know, then by extension you can fight the bigger battles and, and realise that those are long term games. Very powerful and, and very candid answer.

Thank you very much for that. And that will give people a lot to think about on the personal level and, and exactly like you articulate, you know, controlling the things that are within your gift of control and, and therefore to make yourself happy as a result of it. That said, you have, of course spoken to a huge number of people who are doing all sorts of interesting and different things.

Are you seeing areas within which there is for want of a better word, success in, in terms of pushback or, you know, rejection of the new world order or whatever one might want to describe you? You seeing that sort of thing occurring? So, you know, these sorts of yeah, successes. I think so. I think, I think again it plays into that 30% number that Matthias spoke about. I, I think that maybe 1/3 a third sitting on half, but I mean, it doesn't really matter.

I think there's, there is a small number of people in my circles that are certainly thinking differently to what they did a few years ago and are certainly behaving and acting differently. I know for a fact, for example, and I think this is a big win. A number of people in my circles no longer believe in vaccines, not just COVID, but any vaccines. I don't, I don't believe in any vaccines anymore. If you'd asked me about vaccines in 2019, yes, sure. Yeah, vaccines work, you know,

absolutely. You know, now I do not trust any pharmaceutical claim about any vaccine, knowing what I know now. And and if you just think about it, without even going into the science, how did humanity survive for so long without the magic, the magic of vaccines? Well, diet, lifestyle, you know, all the environmental factors that, that get lost in these scientific discussions.

People get so caught up in, in, in their lane, shall I say, that they just don't have the ability to zoom out and just look at the big picture and realise you don't actually need a vaccine in order to be healthy. The idea that you, that you have, that you have to have an, an, an, an, an injection that goes into your muscle in your arm to keep you healthy for 20 years. It seems just utterly absurd.

And I mean, I think that's, I think that's a big one because that's an actual, that's an actual drug. It's a toxin that's being injected into your body. I mean, it's not, we're not just having a conversation. You know, there's an actual thing that's going on here. And I love, I love that so many people around me now are, are, are looking at this more critically and saying it, not just thinking it. You know, it's still difficult, you know, when somebody dies suddenly or, or dies from

something strange. I don't know if you're the same, but I, I found myself thinking, I wonder if they had the shot. And with you have to, you have to read the room because some people do not like that question at all. It's just, it's a, it's a, it's a no go zone.

But I I'm happy to, to, to be around a number of people who are OK with that and, and go. Yeah, I think you got the shot and then you can't prove that it was a shot, but you know, you you can kind of start making connections and going, well, OK, he was healthy and suddenly he just dropped dead on the sports field. So I think, I think to some degree there are multiple wins that are happening, at least in my circles. And I like that, that that for

me is very uplifting. So yes, I do see a change. And, and it's not, not just that it's other things also, it's also geopolitical. So it, it, it could be, it doesn't really matter, but you know, it can be people changing the views on, on previously held views that they are, you know, they're now letting go of. So, but as I said, I think it's still plays into that, that 3040% number. And I don't know if it'll ever go above that, Charles.

No, I think you're probably right, but but it's exactly like your ticket. It's a question of discerning who is going to be receptive to such and such an idea or just at least thinking about something. And we've all experienced the the effect that the red pill can have which that it you can invoke a tendency to behave like a bull in China shop and experience the backfire effect. Now you are you have a mastery

for asking questions. How have you found to be the best technique for breaching these sorts of subjects with people? Or is it on a sort of individual by individual basis? How do you How do you decide? I'm just interested, it's as simple as that. I'm, I'm just interested in, in, in learning. I just want to know, I want to know more. And I, I, I make the assumption that the person with whom I'm talking knows more. That's as it's as simple as

that. And, and you don't, you don't get anywhere if you are being, what's the word, abrasive or just trying to, you know, so you're interviewing somebody, but then you Give your opinion all the time. That's not how you learn. I think it was Peter Boghossian who wrote Yes, it is. It's Speedo who wrote the book How to Have Impossible Conversations. And by the way, it's a book I highly recommend. He, it's an orange book, so you can't miss it. And he wrote it with James Lindsay.

He did those experiments, those social experiments with Helen Pluck Rose and James Lindsay, the very, very funny where they showed how the peer review system's broken. And he basically suggests that you, you need to genuinely be interested. It's as simple as that. And, and through that, allow, allow yourself to learn, you know, don't assume that you know more.

And that's the other thing. You know, when you, when you interview people, I'm sure you'll agree, Charles, you, you realise how little you actually know about so many things. You, you learn more, but you also learn how much you don't know. And, and it's the most incredible experience. Let me give you an example. So I've done, I don't know about 1000 interviews and I've had some of the best, the best discussions with communists now.

And I say that because they are they self described communists, right? And and the only reason why I'm saying that is because the whole Ukraine thing happened. And so I started focusing on that and I realised that these terms really do not adequately signify who or what people believe. It's just a single word to define an entire person and they experience in life. And you realise that it's silly. Yeah, these words help for

conversations. And of course, for most, most, you know, dialogue, you know, we need descriptors for general understanding of things. But when you come down to it and you sit with somebody like I did on many occasions and I realised I, I agree with, I agree with that point. I agree with that .0. Wow, I agree with that point too. But I'm not a communist.

What's going on here? And, and that's, that's what made me realise how little ash, you know, because even people who label themselves as things don't entirely fit into these things because there's so much more than a label that makes sense. And that's why I've kind of dismissed the left, right, sort of liberal conservative dichotomies for the most part. And I just look at myself and I go, well, what do I think about a situation? What is my position on that? What is my view?

And and does that person have have a point? Yeah, I think so. Does he have a point? Now, I don't know if I agree with that. And and so I kind of kind of formulate my own position based on on on that. And I think any same person, just by the way, on this, any same person who's done a bit of history will know that the sort of left, right ideology narrative came out of the French Revolution. I mean, that was hundreds of years ago.

I mean, it's no longer relevant. I mean, if you ask anybody today, what does it mean to be right wing or far, far right as the as the as the media term, nobody knows. Nobody can define these terms. And until these terms can be adequately defined, we can't, you can't use them effectively. Those were just throwing around pointless words.

So I found myself having the most incredible conversations with people with whom I 10 years ago would have vehemently, just outright disagreed without even giving them a chance. And I think that's the point. You know, when you give people a chance to and you listen, which is what Peter Boghossian said in his book, you know, you just listen and you, and you show an interest. There's a whole wealth of of of knowledge that you that you end up gaining. Yeah, I mean, gosh, without a doubt.

And for anybody that isn't familiar with your podcast, and indeed slightly depends on the time or date, I should say that anyone listens to this interview because the situation is is somewhat changing, but just just describe, describe the the German warfare podcast in a nutshell, but with a view to the future. Well, effectively it's the

battle of ideas. So it is in engaging in in topics or talking points that are traditionally perhaps taboo or unconventional or fringe or conspiratorial or whatever, generally speaking that might challenge mainstream thinking. So it's, it's effectively approaching what you might consider even dangerous ideas for the purposes of learning and also fitting together the puzzle. It's taking slowly piercing together the puzzle of how

things work. You spoke about the New World Order, Agenda 2030. These are all real things. Sustainable development is a real thing. It is a United Nations ambition for centralised control of countries. This is not, this is not airy fairy stuff. It's a real thing. It's documented. They want, you know, they want people to move into cities and open up land and give the land to the state so that they can build solar panels and, and all

sorts of other stuff. And, and, you know, these, these sort of mega ultra cities that, that, that, that clash. Rob, for example, has spoken about. This is all real stuff. And, and, and yet in the mainstream, there's this weird type of closed mindedness that still doesn't want to acknowledge that there is a bigger set of, of realities that are going on around us.

You know, if you open, if I open a newspaper today, it's, it'll just talk about how the government has done XY and Z, but it doesn't go further than that against Africa. We've got an issue with farm murders, right? And it's a real thing. And we have we have a scary amount of of particularly white farmers who get attacked on a on a weekly basis, either attacked, killed, but it's, it's not good.

But if you were to speak about this with your average, with your average South African who doesn't think terribly far, they would just think that it's just, it's just black people who hate white people. But it's not that in my view. I think that it's deeper than that. I think that this is part of a global attempt with foreign interests to to keep at least South Africa destabilised.

Because when you have a destabilised agricultural setup like we do, you, you can then infiltrate with a lot more ease. You can get into government policy making, you can get into corporate policy making. And, and it's again, as I said earlier, when people are in a state of, of fear and anxiety, you can, you can control them with a lot more ease. Agriculture, I think is not just an issue in South Africa. I think the Netherlands is also facing all types of agricultural

attacks. So, so a myopic view it, it's just, it's just racism. It's maybe some of that, yes, sure. But I think it's bigger than that. And this is what happens when you, when you sit within that sort of mainstream mindset, you don't want to look bigger. You don't realise that this, that this, that there are a lot of links that are that go

outside of, of, of your view. The, the world is interconnected and there is a big web and there are a lot of things that are connected to a lot of other things. And, and, and so that's what germ warfare is about. It's about trying to just find those links and connect them and, and a lot of them might not work, you know, but that's part of the process, it's part of the journey.

Excellent, a very good summary and for those who are aware of germ warfare then a handy reminder to those that aren't. They have something to look forward to. The eagle eyed amongst the audience would have noticed already that there are one or two cartoons of germs that are tagged UK column and by now. Well, depending on the date of the release of the interview, but UK column is now to be host to germ warfare in some guys or other. So that's something we look forward to enormously.

Just give us your thoughts on on the Collaboration with UK column. I have been wanting to collaborate with UK column for a very long time. Charles, I said this to you previously. I interviewed Brian, I think back in 20/20/21, already a big fan of, of, of the work that UK column does. I think it's a very important voice and it's not just UK

based. The fact that I'm in South Africa and, and have been following it for years is, is an indication that it is global and, and it's an important global voice and it's a, it's a very, what is the opposite of sensational. I don't want to say moderate, that's the wrong word, but it's a, it's, it's a, it's a well thought out take on what's going on. I'm trying, I'm trying to compare to, to Infowars, which is highly, highly sensational. It's not that.

It's a lot more what's, what's more reasoned? There we go. It's more reasoned and, and, and I love that. And, and I'm looking forward to, to, to doing a, a type of broadcast with UK column. And of course I'm enjoying drawing for, for UK column. It is a wonderful collaboration that I find extremely fulfilling personally. And of course, I think valuable externally. I think a lot of people will

appreciate our collaboration. And I just quickly want to say we keep saying German warfare, which is correct, but some people get confused. It's not germ with AG. We're not talking about bacteria or, or, you know, viruses. My name is Jeremy. And it's just a plain words. So it's germ with AJ. So it's just literally word play. That's all it is.

And so it's all about the battle and the war and the, the, you know, and it's all all those sort of metaphors kind of kind of coming to 1. So it's just just just let people spell it correctly because I'll always get incorrect spelling. I will make sure I I type that up with the right keys for the notes for this interview. Indeed. Now obviously this is very exciting. The UK column as well. It will be in effect under your own brand.

So now just tell people where they can go to find out more about what you have been doing, what you do do and any social media and that sort of thing. Well, obviously gymwarfare.com, my website is the home. I mean, there's no point to me mentioning all the other stuff because it's all on the website socialmediaetceteraetceteragermwarfare.com with AJ. But I suspect that the stuff that I'm going to be doing with UK column will will also be on UK columns website Charles.

So I think it'll be those two websites. Perfect. I mean, could it be any simpler, right, I think not. So that's, that's a fantastic place to end, I think Now all I would say is that if you are in a position to support UK column financially and you're not already doing so, but you would like to please go to the website and look at ways in which you could either donate or join as a member. Because we would very much

appreciate that. And of course, it will enable us to sustain the nascent relationship with GERM, which we are, as I say, very, very pleased and excited about. Now there are thousands of other topics that we could have covered if we had several more days, but unfortunately that's where we've got to knock it on the head. I just want to point that because I know you're not going to, but a number of years ago when I was hosting a radio show,

you were my guest. And and it's it's amazing how how we force you back to where we are here, which is wonderful. So so thank you. Not at all. Thank you. I mean, that actually that would be good for, for a further discussion that was specifically about, well, Christianity, but but the Church of England in particular and how it and I would say abuses its funds, But that, that is not a topic we can open up now.

But no, absolutely we should come back and discuss that again because it's, it's an extraordinary topic. And, and it was a, you know, it was a great pleasure to talk to you then. And, and as you say, it's come full circle now. What a delight. So we will leave it there. But Jim, thank you very much indeed for joining me. It's been a real pleasure. Thanks, Charles.