Hello everyone, this is Diane Rasmussen Makati from UK column. I'm delighted to be joined by Heather McKee who is the convener of the Student Academics for Academic Freedom group. We are both part of Academics for Academic Freedom. I am a member of the committee in Edinburgh that incorporates for Edinburgh universities who are fighting really, really hard to maintain some semblance of academic freedom in our universities throughout the UK.
Because I'm very afraid to say that there really isn't very much left at all and everything's continuing to work against us. But I'm really, really happy that there has been a student group that has started up that is starting to work in this direction. So with that, Heather, I'd like to bring you in. Could you maybe say a little bit about yourself and and what made you decide to start to get involved in this group as a student? Yeah, no problem at all.
Diane, it's lovely to join you today as well. Yeah, so I'm a student. I'm a mature student. I do my studies part time. I'm currently completing a master's in psychology at the University of Glasgow. And it was this year, well maybe before last year really, that I was feeling a bit frustrated around what was happening at university and my own university.
But I'm just generally speaking to other students, there was a kind of lack of ability to kind of use your free speech to, you know, have to raise kind of more contentious issues which aren't really contentious, but to kind of voice your kind of different opinion if you like. And that kind of frustration just really got to the point where I contacted Dennis, who is obviously the director of AFAF and said, do you have a student
section of AFAF? Because I'd really like to join and Dennis said we're, we're doing, we kind of had tried to get something like that going before. But obviously with students, you tend to do your couple of years and you move on and that's fair. So I said, well, would you mind if I give it a crack and try and restart it again, see if I can get some more students, see if I can kind of create a consistent line of students really that are willing to kind of keep this
going. And really that's where it came from. So in May this year, we kind of launched it back out and since then it's, it's done really well. It's, it's grown really quite, quite sizeable on, on X on Twitter. We're now over, I think 1700 followers. We're well into double digit figures of actual members. And again, we've, we vary from 18 years of age right up, you know, in terms of student ages, in terms of different sexes, in
terms of different studies. You know, we have humanities with science, myself and psychology, for instance. So we have a real broad spectrum of students, which is great. And there's a real first, I think that's coming out from students I speak to and students in the group to to have this free speech and academic freedom come back to universities in the UK and and in Ireland. So, yeah, so that's really the kind of history of how Safa kind of started back up again and and
really where we are today. How did you find out about AFAF in the 1st place? It's not something that gets terribly public throughout most universities in my experience. No. So it was on X, it was on Twitter that I find it because I am a free speech advocate
myself. I can't remember how I stumbled across it, but I remember just following it and seeing like being spoken about and obviously being at university, I was quite interested in the fact that many academics and obviously were some well known academics were getting cancelled or you know, even visitors to kind of universities to speak were
getting cancelled. And so it was, it was very well known to me. The problems, if you like the X was definitely the one that kind of showed me that there there was organisations fighting for free speech and academic freedom and universities and really that's where it came from and just a kind of, I love a challenge. I can't help myself. So it was very much like reach out to to AFAF and see what we could do.
Academics for academic freedom is definitely we're facing a challenge for sure and we need to keep working and and doing everything that we can and continuing to recruit students. But I think that you said before that your goal is to get one student in every university in the UK, Is that correct?
Yes. So at the AFAF conference that we had, it was a few weeks ago now, I set a challenge out really to, to SAFAF members, also to AFAF members to say, you know, let's get at least one student and Safa and each university throughout the UK and in Ireland. And really I put the challenge out to academics to say, please stand up. We need you to stand up for free
speech. We need you to be visible and universities for students to feel comfortable, to be able to know that there's, there's someone there advocating for free speech. So that was the challenge that we put out and, you know, really what we're looking to do from 2025 is really hit the ground running with that and start doing some real, you know, on campus events, you know, start to put the word out much more and really just make much more
of a noise. And we have had the chance to obviously just building up the membership base over the past few months. So 2025 is going to be a really fun, I think, and challenging year for academics and for students. Yeah, I, I think so as well. I'd like to talk a little bit about the conference. We were both there back in November 2024.
I, I think it was, Well, for me it was a very important day because you know, the story of my own cancellation because Dennis Hayes asked me to give a talk there as well, which I have to say felt very motivating, positive, uplifting, despite the fact that, as I believe some people said on the day, we really shouldn't have to be here in the 1st place, but we are. And it was good to kind of all be together.
It actually, the student talk was one of the highlights of the day for me because it's so important. And I'm really happy to see that younger people are, are getting involved in that. And I think that one of the points that you made that was really essential is that academics need to be supporting the students because that's, that's our responsibility, because you are our responsibility as, as our students.
And, and that's something that I, I think we need to maybe look at unpacking a little bit because as you said, I remember you saying at the conference, or maybe it was one of your colleagues saying, it feels like we're living in 1984 at university now, which was obviously the opposite of what we're supposed to be. And I don't really quite understand at this point what we can do because this is something
that we need to work out. Do you think that students are afraid because they see their lectures being afraid? Or do you think it's just like the entire social political climate going on in the UK right now or what? What do you think it is the fear it is that they need to face to be able to feel safe to say what they want to say in in universities? Yeah, it's a good question and I think it's quite multifaceted the answer.
So I, I think from experience and having spoken to very solid students, you know, going to university is a real change for many young people. You know, especially if you're going in, it's your first year, you're you're 1819, you're an undergrad, you know, and you and you're maybe living away from home as well, you know, So it's a very much a brand new experience for you. And you're there also to make friends and, you know, and to meet other people.
And the problem with that is that you don't want to step out of your friendship group necessarily, you know, finding your friendship groups particularly difficult initially as well. But if you if you're being taught that one point of view as the truth, and that's the same point of view that has to be kind of shared amongst that group of people, it's much easier to go along with that than it is to go against that kind of thought process, if you
like. And then what's also happening, another aspect is that we're seeing a lot of activist kind of lecturers and universities as well, you know, so they are fairly much putting forward their, their views as being the truth. You know, the one view that has to be kind of be adopted unfold not it should be much more of a case of, Oh yeah, OK, you have a, you have a view, you know, let's discuss it. Let's, let's discuss what that view is. Let's, you know, break it down.
That's the whole point of going to universities to, to, you know, get your critical thinking skills in place, you know, to discuss and debate. And I think so, I think it's a, there's a, there's a social aspect to it that if you step out of that group, you know, out of that group, think if you like, you can certainly be, you know, almost ostracised, you know, and treated as a leper, to be honest.
And that's never, that's not enjoyable for any pet anybody, never mind a young person at 1819, you know, who's, who's just starting to go out and to do their studies. And then you've got the kind of in the in the, the seminars and in the lecture theatres, where again, if you're going against a tide of a maybe 100 people in that lecture theatre, you know, what you think may be going against the the tide, you know, going against the Fort, you feel very alone.
You know, and, and I think that's one thing that Saffaf is trying to do is to create this, this basis of you're not alone. There are very much like minded other students and academics who who believe it doesn't matter what your view as you should be able to voice that view. You know, obviously we find reason, there's certain laws that we have to abide by, but, you know, free expression and diversity of thought really
needs to be pushed much more. So I think, yeah, there's the it's it's very difficult for students these days to be able to do that without feeling that they may be attacked from their peers or even from the academics, you know, that are supposed to be teaching them to think critically, you know, rather than to to just go along a group think pathway.
Yeah, I heard from a student who, well, someone who wanted to become a student in Auk University and do a PhD. And this was something to look at this sort of the the sexualization of children in school curriculum. And This is why I heard about it, because they've seen my coverage on UK column about these these issues and libraries
and education. And this individual, it got an interview for a, a place for a PhD. And when they got to the interview, they were told by the potential supervisors that they were pro, pro trans.
Do you want to say that? And so if they did anything in their research or wanted to do anything in their research that was against that particular, I'll say the trans agenda, the LGBT agenda, that they would not be agreed to be their supervisors, only if they would, they would stay on the the sort of the pro trans side and that anything else that they said or wanted to research would be considered transphobic. So as a result, this person was not able to get in to do the PhD
at their chosen university. And and this is where we're seeing these activists like you're saying, these issues around free speech, free debate, free expression. We've seen the high profile cases, we've seen Professor Joe Phoenix, we've seen Kathleen Stock, we've seen well, myself, all these things for gender critical views and these things that we've all encountered when I think back to my own
university training. And I guess leads to my next question for you is when I did my degrees, which was well, I finished my PhD in 2006. At that point, we were told to ask whatever questions we wanted to ask, right? It was all about what do you want to know? What do you want to explore? And it was part of our job to come up with our own questions. It wasn't the job of the universities or of the our lecturers or supervisors to tell us what we could or couldn't study.
And I'm really surprised by how quickly this has changed. Right, so we've got 18 years since I finished my PhD, Completely different landscape since I've been a full time academic. And I guess since you said, as you all said, you are a mature student and you certainly don't have to disclose your age or how long ago you started university, but did you do your undergrads a long time ago or more recently?
And I'm just wondering if you've seen any changes since you started studying to now when you're doing your master's? Yes, absolutely. So I am, I'm in my 40s now, I'm 43. So I, and I'm freely admit that I don't mind at all. I did my undergrad when I was 18 and I and so then I, I've had a gap of about 20 odd years of, of, of not having traditional education. If you like, I've been doing it through, you know,
qualifications through my work. Yeah. The the difference is quite insane to me, to be honest, because when I went to university it was really a shock to the system. Going to university at 18, you were very much left alone almost to to go and find your own way and to formulate ideas, come back. You know you would have your regular catch ups with lecturers, but you it was very much a case of you are on your own. You have to come up with these
ideas. You have to come forward, particularly as you go through the years. You know, when you get into what have you, where you do need to use your own critical thinking and you do need to come up with with questions and and challenges. Now I'm seeing do even doing the masters that you're almost spoon fed to a certain degree. Now I'm slightly different in that I do mine online, so there's less of me being in a in
a lecture hall or on campus. But from the the other students that I'm speaking to that are doing their undergraduate courses now, you know, there's this aspect of safety ISM that has come about in universities that now, you know, these young adults are being treated almost like children, you know, and they're not, they're young adults. You know, if you, if you can get your grades and you can get into university, you're a young adult and they're not being treated
that way. They're being treated with, you know, safe spaces, you know, trigger warnings, you know, things that you just think this is, this is not what you should be doing with young adults. You know, they're there to learn. They should be getting challenged. They should be feeling, you know, this is a totally different situation. You know, they've got to think for themselves. They've got to come up with these questions.
And that's not happening. What we're seeing a lot of is we've seen a lot of, you know, dissertations or courseworks being pushed in a, you know, a direction not open to having different diversity of thought, you know, having different
viewpoints. It's very much like this is what we want you to do. So you have to go down that track and, you know, and we see that from the questions posed by some, you know, courses, You know, we've seen the literally at one of the universities, an engineering course is, you know, again, asking students to to design and develop a safe space for LGBTQ plus, you know, people.
I mean, it's engineering. I don't quite understand that, you know, and, and we've got a range of students who come from multiple different backgrounds, you know, with various different relig, religious reviews, cultural, you know, norms that that would feel uncomfortable doing that, you know, and pushing back against that. And I think, you know, we talk about the gender kind of issue. It's not even just about that. It's about impacting on free speech.
You know, the gender issue is quite prominent because it has impacted on, you know, a lot of academics, free speech, you know, such as Kathleen Stop, Joe Phoenix, but there's also other, you know, kind of critical social justice ideologies which exist. You know, I've seen it from critical race theories, for instance, being taught in psychology to clinical psychologists, as if that's the
be on end all the truth. And, you know, for a lot of, we've got a few members, young white males, they feel absolutely ostracised, you know, and, and, and made to feel guilty for something that they cannot and have no power over, which is how they were born, you know, So it's, it's, it's kind of eat into every single kind of aspect of university life at the moment. And it's, it's really difficult for students to, to hold a different view, you know, and,
and not feel ostracised. Yeah, I, I'm worried particularly well for all of you. But when I think about the 18 year olds and what their experience has been like, you know, first of all, they went through high school during COVID when they should have been having a little bit more normal high school life, but they were locked away in their rooms and having class on Zoom. And now they're in university and now they can't say anything.
And now they're probably still scared because I would imagine that the COVID era for young people would be particularly scary, not really understanding the world, not having lived long enough to think back what what it was like to be an adult before you had to do all this ridiculous stuff that they tried to make us do. And, and then now they're in a place where they can't speak, they can't say anything.
And, and, and sometimes I wonder about that, if that COVID period of sort of growing up and being an adolescent and that time when you, the government was so called protecting us, but really they were just controlling us. But do you think that maybe that experience now has LED them to feel more like, well, this is how the world is because they've never known anything else?
I I don't know how much contact you have with the the younger students, but I'm I'm just wondering if that experience has made them more accepting now of of how things are.
Yeah, I, I think so. I mean, it's, it's definitely a different kind of world that, you know, most of these students are now at university, have gone through, they haven't had the normal course of being a teenager, if you like, you know, and growing up. And when you go to university, you know, one of the, one of the joys of going to university is to make friends and to enjoy yourself and to say stupid things and not be fearful that what you've said in the student
union the night before isn't going to come back and haunt you the next day in a lecture hall, for instance. And, you know, I think one of the key things that we are finding and, and one of the, one of the things we're pushing back on is, is that ability to say something stupid, you know, and to say, you know, something that that is not going to haunt you for the rest of your life because it shouldn't, you know, you're at university. Shouldn't.
Unions are a really good example of where it's become actually extremely difficult for students to, to go and, and to be able to speak and have a different opinion. You know, I remember my days going to the student union, you know, after, I mean, going maybe a few nights through that week because that's what students do. And, you know, you might, you might have a few drinks, you might say something stupid.
You, you have a, a joke and a laugh and you, you'll disagree with each other because, you know, inevitably politics might come up. So you have different views on politics, you know, and you and you have a good discussion and it's all fine because you know that the next day or most of it's going to be it's, it's nothing. It's just a discussion. It's a talking point.
But what we're seeing now is that, you know, something that can happen the night before 11 world slap, you know, something that's just very innocent can suddenly become such a big overblown thing. And, you know, it can really haunt a lot of students. You know, we've seen that on campuses where students are, you know, they're literally bullied into submission, you know, because they've said something off the cuff, you know, the night before and the student
union. And student unions are one of the areas that I think we, we will kind of focus on and push, push on for SAF next year because, you know, the, the Higher education Freedom of Speech Act, which should have come into place, would have put duties on student unions to, to, to make sure they had academic freedom and those, and that's
not not happened. And we see student unions time and time again cancelling speakers, you know, not not wanting to to do events because it's not the group think it's not this the standard accepted, you know, kind of, you know, you know, issue of the day that everybody accepts, you know, when there's ever a kind of slightly different opinion, they will shut it down. And we're seeing them do that with speakers coming to to events. We've seen them doing it with academics.
They do it with students as well. You know, you cannot do something that they don't approve of, which is insanity to me because student unions are for students. That's the whole point, you know, But they've been kind of captured as well. So it's, yeah, there's a lot of shouldn't, should go and have fun at university and learn. Yes, absolutely. But there's this fear factor now that's that's crept in, which is a real, real sad state of affairs.
Yeah, I, I started university in 1993 and I, there's lots of things that I did in 1993 and the, the, the few years after that that I'm really happy that there was no social media or substantial Internet at the time to record any of it. And it's in the past, which is where it needs to stay. But I think that should be true for everyone to have those experiences when they're younger.
And you know, there's some things in particular that I remember about, especially when I'm thinking back to my undergrad years at my university, which was the University of North Texas. We had a lot of political events, but they were on, but on sort of all sides of the political spectrum. And so even back then I was, I was interested in active in politics. And so I would go to certain speeches, whether or not I
agreed with them. And that was kind of the whole point was that, you know, then you would go for a drink after and have your discussion about what they said. But you didn't, you didn't report anybody. You didn't file complaints. You didn't try to ruin somebody's education over it. You just kind of went on and said, OK, I don't agree with you. And, and that would be the end of it. It was never this, oh, you know, you're going to be complained about. I'm going to file a grievance.
You need to be disciplined. You need to be thrown out your programme because you don't agree with me, which is the climate we're in now. And you also have the right to be offensive. I remember we had this particular area on my campus with that was called the free speech area, literally labelled that the whole campus was free speech. But this was like, if you want to have a, a sort of a demonstration or something.
And so a couple of times a year, these people that were very active in pro life, supporting pro life activism and so on, they would bring these huge photographs of aborted foetuses and you'd see the the actual remains. They were horrible. They were disgusting. I personally avoided it because I just didn't like to see them. And but they had a point they wanted to make and that's how
they were making an impact. But nowadays everyone is so overly sensitive that you can't even have like an exhibit. I know a colleague who's a professor at another UK university who's talked about how students won't go into museums. His students in particular won't go into the university's museums because there's offensive material that because it's considered to be colonialist or anti whatever, anti racist, I guess.
But it, you know, back, you know, just 30 years ago or even 20 years ago when I was doing my postgraduate degrees, you would have been required to do that because you were supposed to feel uncomfortable at times. And but now this, the sheltering of students from, you know, what may or may not be true for them, what they may or may not believe in is just something that they're just putting off to one side and pretending that it
doesn't exist. And as you say, that's a really, really important thing in universities. I, I know of some particular examples from the University of Glasgow museums, but I think it's the Interior Museum. I don't know if you know anything about that, what they've done there with some of their agenda. If you want, if you don't want that, I'd love to hear you talk about it a little bit. So that's your university.
I don't know of that particular, but there, there I certainly know of some issues around obviously the Hunterian has, you know, particular exhibits which may be uncomfortable for anybody to look at, you know, and that's, that's a human reaction, you know, looking at foetuses, for instance, you know, these these are things that are not pleasant to look at, but they they were, they served a purpose because they were for science, you know, and and they were studied and we've made so many
advances off the back of of these types of things. I mean, the the the thing with the, the kind of pro pro life, I mean, yes, absolutely. It's, it's unpleasant to see, but you do, you do not have a right to be offended. You know, in this country you can avoid it. You can choose not to be offended by, by not going to there. Whereas what's happening now is that people are being offended by and therefore everybody must not go to it. You know, every, it must be
cancelled. You know, for instance, the, the University of Berlin, I think is, or one of the universities in Berlin at the moment has refused to, to have a Holocaust display at the university. I can't think of anything more ridiculous in my life than a university in Berlin. And, and the reason being is that it would make some people uncomfortable, you know, and, and yes, it should make you uncomfortable. The Holocaust was horrific.
You should have a physical and emotional reaction to something like that. And I think that's the the key. But as, again, we talk about decolonization, you know, University of Glasgow, for instance, is quite big on decolonization. You know, we cannot escape our past. We cannot escape our history. Even if we look at it now and think that was wrong, we should never have done that. These are different times.
You know, we cannot look at what happened in history with the same glasses that we have on today. You know, that's impossible. What's happened in the past has LED us to where we are today. We know that slavery is bad, you know, we, we understand that these things should not have happened, but they did, you know, and there was a different time and there was a different mentality to that. And actually, what would be better rather than decolonizing the curriculum is to learn from it.
You know, don't hide the history, teach the history, you know, teach us what was bad. Make us think, you know, make us think. Was that bad? Was that good? What has led to this now? You know, where are we in, in terms of, of what we do now? And there's this idea of trying to kind of rob out the history that we have had as a country, as a people, because it's uncomfortable to some who, who attend university or to some other people. And that's, that's ridiculous.
You know, we, we cannot have an atmosphere on university and universities where because some people are uncomfortable, everyone else is not allowed to go and experience the, you know, the exhibit or the, you know, the the art, the art gallery showing a particular type of, of annual and artist work has been cancelled, for instance. So, yeah, I think, I think there's that element of you do not have the right to be
offended. And that needs to come across in universities much more than I think it does now. You know, you can be offended. Absolutely. You just don't have the right to to say that nobody else can go and see these things. That's that's where I think SAFF is pushing back. You know, we have to say that's fine, but that doesn't impact on everything else. You know it can't impact on everything else. Yeah. And the interesting thing is decolonization is one of the things that I have.
It's been part of my larger cancellation because I spoke out against it, particularly in libraries, because that's my, my background is in librarianship. And, and the ironic thing about it is that in particular, I spoke out against decolonization in Scotland because this, we are in the home of the Scottish Enlightenment, right? So many amazing things happened during that time period that contributed to human knowledge and, and development and civilization as we know it in so
many ways. And what I don't understand about about it here in the UK is that it, that you, this is your, this is your native home. If you are born here, if you are British, if you're Scottish, if you're English, if you're Welsh, if you're that is this is your homeless. So you're basically if you're cancelling the history that is said to be racist, whatever colonialism, that is part of
your history. And all of us have bad parts in our history in America, we have bad parts in our history, but we can't change it. Like you said, we have to learn from it. And what I was trying to do was actually complement the, the, the background in Scotland of, of all of the amazing work that has been done here in our ancient universities in the UK. But for some reason it, that was one of the things that I have been in trouble for discipline
for, because I was trying to stand up for this country that I moved over here to work in the universities here. But for some reason that led to part of my cancellation. It's, it's, it's, so it's very strange, but I think that it, it's being taught. So this is something that students should be aware of as well, is that new lecturers are being taught decolonization and their training. So I'm not sure how many people are aware of this or even
students know. But when you become a lecturer and or, or even a PhD student or postdoc with any teaching responsibilities, you have to do basically what's called a PG cert, or in my case, I got the diploma in learning about teaching and learning in AUK system. Right. And one of the things that that you usually would have to do is learn how to supervise students, learn how to conduct a Viva, learn how to create curriculum, learn what, what should be on a reading list.
How can you, how can you provide support to your students? All these different like practical things that you need to know. But part of the curriculum now through what's called the advanced HE, which gives the credential teaching credentials for UK lectures, is that decolonizing the curriculum is actually part of the requirements. And even when I went through it when I first moved to the UK, which was 10 years ago, we didn't have to learn decolonization.
We learned the practical parts that you actually need to know. But that is now part of what is required to learn to get your PG cert so that you have your teaching qualification. So it's actually built into the structure. So either people are trying to go back and learn it if they didn't learn already, but the new lectures are being presented with it and they have to learn it to be able to pass, to get
their credential. So that's that's how captured it's become the the accrediting body for teaching qualifications now requires it. Yeah, and I would say that this is kind of endemic of, of what's happening in universities, full stop. You know, with EDI for instance, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's part of that whole EDI process, you know, and we see, you know, whether it's whether it's decolonizing the curriculum or whether it's making safe spaces
or, or, or really whatever. I mean, if I look at some of the, the kind of key EDI initiatives of which are pushed in universities, a Fina Swan for instance, is a really perfect example of that. And most universities, certainly of a particular standard have have adopted a Fina Swan. Now that standard itself, when it first started, was designed to get more women into STEM courses and also into academia for STEM. So, and now, now we're faced
with no longer being for women. That can be for anybody who identifies as a woman. So anybody and you know, and, and for universities, it costs a lot of money to get an, an Athena SWAN accreditation, a lot of money and it costs a lot of time. And at that time comes from the, the lecturers and professors who have to sign up to do it. And various departments can do it or the university can do it.
But it's years in the making to get an award for a Fenus 1, which I would question, is it worthwhile? Because it's not actually doing what I initially set out to do in the 1st place. And, and yes, as actually pushing a kind of ideology into the universities and to lecturers and to departments, which is then getting pushed down into the students is taught as kind of, you know, part and parcel of your course, which I, I disagree with.
I'm, I'm a woman, I'm all for advancing women and women in STEM, but when you open the category of women up to to include men, you've lost that. Then you no longer have that. You know you, that's not your driving factor anymore. That's not your goal. What it is now is just a case of you do this. It's a tick box exercise, a very long, a very expensive tick box exercise for universities, which as we know, they're extremely cash strapped at the moment.
I question spending 10s of thousands of pounds on an award which does nothing other than add a symbol to your to your website, when that money could be getting better spent on students, you know, on, on, on providing the key information men, even mental health services for students improving that. We talked about COVID and how that's impacted on student mental health. You know, directing that money to where I actually think it really should be going would be
much better time spent. But I think this is a problem with EDI is that once it gets in there, it becomes standard practise. And nobody, nobody is willing to question and stand up and say, I think this is a waste of money in all honesty. And I think the university resources could be much better spent. And we need people to start doing that. You know, we need people to push back and say, sorry, this is a waste of money. This is not going to do us any
good. But until we do that, we're stuck with this EDI and you kind of ideology, if you like, and and universities. Yeah. And you know, and it doesn't help us as women who, you know, if we think back to even just to the generation before our generation, right, where women have to work so hard to get to where they are. I've I've heard, I heard a speech once from a woman in in my fields. She wrote a speech that I maybe I will link to it in the in the
write up for this interview. Her name is Professor Marcia Bates from my field. And she was a pioneering woman to and she told her story when she got this high award and one of our professional societies. And she gave a speech that brought me to tears because she talked about how much harder she had to work as a woman when she was coming up through academia in sort of the 1970s to work, to work twice as hard, to do twice as much teaching, to do twice as much admin, because women are
expected to do those things. And how much more she had to publish. And, and she retired early because she got bringed out because she worked so hard. And I think back to her and I think, well, she's worked that hard to pave the way for women of my generation. And then maybe the ones after mine to to, you know, may have things be a bit easier than they were back then. But all of this ideology is actually, in my opinion, rolling women's, women's opportunities backwards a bit, right.
So we now, we now have to allow the non binary people and the those who identify as us into the place where we've worked so hard and women before us worked so hard to get there. And people don't see it that way. It's it's very, very regressive. Very that that's the right word that basically we're saying, well, just because you believe this way or you think this way, or you like a certain colour, then you are going to change to be a woman or whatever it is.
It, it really it, it's very demeaning to us as women and for the things that we still have to fight against that when we're talking about safe spaces. I, you know, it bothers me because I'm, I'm very public about saying that I was raped at university when I was 19 and there was nothing available for me to help me. Nobody believed me.
Nobody helped me. And when we talked about safe spaces would be here, that people are filing complaints and trying to end careers and educations because someone said the wrong word. Compared to the things that I actually experienced and had to fight through to get to even to finish my degree with just a bit of my sanity left by the end of it. And then all the years it took
for me to try to recover. It actually I think discounts the experiences of those of us who have actually been through traumatic events that now someone can say their own word and that's that's it for that person. They need a safe space. They can't cope. It it, it really discounts the true, the true traumas that people go through, I think. And it's it's dangerous for that reason as well. Yeah, I'd agree.
I mean, I think it, it, it kind of desensitises us all to what is actually the real, you know, issues. I mean, I think rape on on universities campuses, it's never been appropriately dealt with. You know, it's still an issue. You know, they still, we still hear reports every so often of, of young women, for instance, committing suicide, you know, even because of, of what's going on. And they haven't had any support at all. Yeah. If you feel offended by someone's viewpoint, you can
raise a grievance. You can be, you know, almost wrapped in cotton wool because you've been, you've been hurt by some words, which is just, you know, again, it just a beggars belief to be fair. And you know, when I look at some of these EDI initiatives, I mean a Venus one. And again, we'll provide you with a link to the Safa sub
stack. We've, we've done, you know, pieces on the fact that actually it hasn't made zero difference to the amount of women in academia that's come in, you know, over the past six many years it's been running for it's, it's actually made us no material difference to the amount of women that are in STEM and academia. You know, the, the, the gender pay gap still exists. You know, there's still a limited amount of senior women
in those in those areas. So actually, you know, what it's intended to do is actually not doing that at all. You know, what we're doing is we're focusing on one, I think heart works and you know, heart feelings rather than the key issues of actually, are we really doing the right things by students such as are we providing support when these incidents happen on campus? You know, are we really making sure that mentally well, you know, in terms of of being able
to do the course? First of all, you know, as you say, coming from COVID, walked away for two years pretty much, you know, and suddenly you're out and you know. Where's the support there? You know, again, I, I, I question the, the kind of leadership really of these universities and what faeces are doing about it. You know, we, I, I don't think faeces are being held to account enough for what's happening on their campuses when it comes to
students. Yeah, and, and, you know, we hear things about the, the gender pay gap and, and, and academia and it's, it's, it's also issues of promotion as well, because I actually have statistics that I've that I've found that say, you know, I, I, I achieved the title of full professor in my field, but only. So only 10% of people who become academics get promoted to professor and only 10% of professors are women as of right now.
And so that just it just goes to show that despite all the hard work that, you know, baby boomers did and, and women before us, so that me considering myself Generation X, it's sort of the Generation F the baby boomers, we're still fighting the same things just as hard as or, you know, it's still just as difficult, maybe not as much as the what the first pioneers that started it for us. And and that you're right, the issues with the Athena Swan, I had to do a little bits and
pieces of that previously. It just did not really address the issues. It, it didn't, it didn't change anything. It was all about, from my perspective anyway, a lot of ticking boxes, like you said, a lot of record keeping, a lot of well, you know, doing surveys, which were obviously, if they do these staff surveys and say, well, do you feel that you're treated equally? Am I going to answer that honestly?
No, because there aren't enough women in my fields or in my department or in my university that I'll be identified. They will figure out, oh, it's anonymous. No, it's not anonymous. They will find you and they will hound you if you say no. I don't feel like I'm being treated equally. Right.
So there's there's still a lot of risk involved in answering those because they obviously want the accreditation, but it's if the women were actually honest in a lot of the situations, they wouldn't receive it. Absolutely. And I think, you know, again, as this we all know, I mean, I, I study psychology, I know how surveys work. You know, you, you send it out, you get a small proportion of people that reply.
Those people that reply are normally motivated to reply, you know, everybody else who looks at or think, you know, if you're not motivated, you won't do it. You know, so you, you, you're, you're getting it skewed towards one opinion again. And, and this is what happens. And this is where, where research actually is, is really difficult to do, you know, in universities as well, because the only certain research is
getting published. You know, we're, we're seeing that many PhD students either can't get a PhD started because the, the, you know, again, nobody wants to supervise them. You know, it's really difficult to get that getting. So getting paid PhD opportunities is really difficult, particularly when you want to, to look at things which are, again, I will say controversial, but they're really not controversial. You know, they're things related to, you know, are the EDI practises working?
I think there was a recent paper that was published, I can't remember who did it, but it kind of said EDI doesn't actually work. You know, if anyone that has the opposite effect, you know, and, and I think we see that and, and you know, and young males coming up, for instance, you know, I see that how how they're affected.
So I think it comes down to the fact that politics and universities as and, and wider life very much in academia, you know, where it's, it's all about you belonging to a particular cohort, but it's actually, no, it's, it's all about your merit. It's about what you bring to the table.
And, and I think we've stopped teaching that to students, whether it's in schools, you know, straight up at the end of the day, it should, it shouldn't be about the colour of your skin or, or what sex you are or what culture you come from. It should be how hard you work at university and how much you
put in personally to get that. And one of our students is Shivan, who he wrote a sub stack recently about that, you know, about the fact that, you know, there's incentives now, your initiatives only directed towards a particular cohort of people, you know, and, and, and, and that's a detriment to, to the vast majority. And again, to bring in that the best person for the job, you know, as, as, as a person that works the hardest and, and studies the most.
And it's not about your colour of your skin. It's not about what sex you are. It's about how hard you are and how, and how you know, merit really. And we've lost this idea of the merit kind of principle, if you like, at university, which I think is really sad because that's the whole point of going to university. You did well enough to get into university. Now you've got to prove yourself even more to get your degree. But now it's all about identity politics.
And that's a real shame because it it disadvantages a lot of very good students who who work very, very hard, don't get the opportunities at the other end. Yeah. And I think that's something. To remember as well as if we go back to Martin Luther King, right, where he talked about everyone being created equal and how we shouldn't judge people by the colour of, of our skin. And you know, he was an inspiration for the entire civil rights movements in America,
right? And, and, and again, it's another, these are also still regressive policies in my opinion, because we're going back to that. It's just, you know, different groups or different. And this whole issue of labels is all something that we shouldn't even be really doing at all. But that's, and it also seems to me that there is a kind of a hierarchy of labels, right? So that there's certain labels at the top who get the most priority and people at the
bottom. So let's say straight white men are at the very bottom and then they're the ones now being disadvantaged in favour of, let's say, you know, the intersectionality of a trans black identifying male or something, right? And and, or female, probably. So those are things that really were going backwards and they seem to think that they're being all progressive. But really it, it seems to me just to be the opposite is, is
what's actually happening. And I don't know how long it's going to take for people to realise that we have, that they are putting themselves backwards with these ridiculous EDI policies you mentioned also earlier, I wanted to make sure to get this in a little bit, the Higher Education Freedom of Speech Act. And of course that doesn't apply to us in Scotland. It only applies to England and
Wales as it is written. I Abhishek gave us, I should say his name, Professor Abhishek Saha is by saying his name correctly. He did a really good, yeah, he did a really good summary of the legislation at the AFAF conference we had last month. I, I have, I, I have my hand out
that he passed out right here. But if you want to, if you know the act and since this is your interview, if you maybe want to summarise what's happened and, and where it's gone, if you want to do that or, or I can do that if you don't know. Yeah. So the the the higher education. Freedom of Speech Act was due to come into force this year, but Bridget Phillipson decided to to stop that six days before I was
due to come into force. And she did it not even by announcing it in Parliament. She did it on a kind of memo, if you like going out before Parliament stopped this this educate this act had been debated to the cows come home. Really, you know, it'd been years in the making by by people like Abhishek who, you know, have have worked on it. It was, it was had gone through the Commons and gone through the
House of Lords back and forward. Back and forward had been watered down, you know, to you know, the tort had been removed. It then been added back in. And yeah, so I had, I had appropriate amount of time to be looked at, at Parliament and, and it got passed and it became the Higher Education Freedom of Speech Act 2023, which as you see doesn't cover Scotland, it covers England and Wales. And and then it was stopped abruptly from actually coming into force.
The excuse was that universities have can't handle the administrative building of the ACT. You know, the Office of Students for instance, had to develop a complaints process which again, they had ample opportunity to develop and bring into force before the ACT committee force, which they didn't. You know, the cost element of this I believe has been over exaggerated by, you know, the
education secretary. Universities are in a difficult position financially, absolutely, but that's because of their over reliance on foreign students fees coming in. You know, they, they have, they have got to the stage now where they, they, they got so reliant on that, that now that that's not particularly coming in anymore, they're struggling to, to meet the finances. You know that it, it was all very much ready to see go and I don't think the ACT should be
watered down in the slightest. I think any concessions given to this act coming in would be very disappointing. You know, I think the tort has to be brought in for absolutely sure because it's the only mechanism that we have to really enforce and ensure that academic freedom and free speech on campus is actually happening. I'm very much in favour of the duties on student unions being brought in as a student myself for the other student members that we have.
That has to again come into force. You know, we have to hold people to account for this. If you say that you are for free speech, you must be able to prove you're for free speech. So I'm, you know, the, the, we, we Abhishek has created a, a letter which we're all signing at the moment, which hopefully you can link as well, Diane, to the Education Secretary to say that we believe this act should be brought in, should be brought in in full and it shouldn't be
delayed any further. And I think at last count, we were edging up towards 500 signatures from a mix of students, academics and, you know, and free speech campaigners. So I think that's just shows you the strength of the, the feeling that we need to bring back free speech and academic freedom into, into universities. I don't think I'm any different to any other person saying we should not need to have an act to do this.
But we're in this position now where we need this act to come in because it isn't, it's not happening organically. We know it's not happening organically. We've all been fighting for it for years, some absolutely more than I have for for much longer, such as yourself, Diane, you know, you've been fighting the fight for much longer than I
have. Unfortunately we do need the ACT and and it can't be delayed any further and needs to come into force and and we need to hold universities to account much more. Yeah. And I will just add to that that was.
A great summary, thank you. I just want to add to that that as of October 2024, the last update is that the Free Speech Union has put in an application to bring judicial review to the proceedings of this act has been granted and a full hearing date is currently scheduled for the 23rd of January 2025. So I will definitely be watching for that when it happens right at the same time as the. Well, it's three days after the Trump inauguration, so we'll see what happens to the world at
that point. There could be a lot going on towards the end of January there. I just want to mention briefly the amazing work of your colleague Connie Shaw. She has been quite an Internet sensation recently. Do you want to say anything about her briefly? Yeah, Connie's fantastic. And, you know, and I think she's a credit to to herself first and foremost. You know, she's a strong young woman. She's a credit to her university, even if they don't realise it.
She's a credit to SAFAF as well, you know, and she's fighting the good fight. And, but I think also what I would say is whilst Connie, Connie's done, done a fantastic job of, I mean, she's very articulate and she speaks very well. She just as a representative of every other SAFAF member that we have, you know, who wants to fight for free speech and academic freedom and, you know, and, and hold, hold a certain viewpoint and not be penalised
for that viewpoint. You know, when she's going through university and she's in her final year and you know, this is, this is all very much quite scary as well. You know, you're in your final year where you're looking at dissertation, you're looking at getting your degree and get out into the world. And you know, whether that's further studies or into the workforce, she shouldn't have to be going through this, You know, and I think I want to reiterate,
well, she's done a great job. And, you know, she's, she's certainly, I think fantastic representative for SAFAF as well. I really wish she had, she wasn't having to go through this, you know, and I, I think the first thing for me is always as a convener of SAFAF is always to make sure that the students that are members of our, our society, if you like our network are supported as fully as possible, you know, and, and when they want to do these things, I wish they didn't have to.
And really, I actually wish I didn't have to do this either. I, I, you know, I think most of us wish we didn't have to do these things. But the reality is if I don't fight for it, then it means generations to come under me won't be able to fight for it either, you know. And I think, I think whilst a criticism we always get is that it's older people fighting for free speech. And I don't class myself as being particularly old. Yeah. So what?
It's me fighting. I if I don't fight for it now, it means that people coming down, the 18 year olds, the Connies who are, you know, under 20, they're going to, they're going to have to fight equally hard again, you know. So I think taking a stand now, and that's what I will say kind of almost to finish is please be brave. You know, academics, please be brave, students, please be brave. Come and speak to, to Safa. We've got really exciting things planned for next year.
There's strength in numbers. You know, we're here to support each other. It's not about doing it alone. You know, Connie has the support of Safa. She's got the support of Free Speech Union behind her, you know, and, and, and many, many others. I do wish she didn't have to do this. I wish that her, you know, the LSR radio would have just let her have her free expression and it's not bringing anybody in to
distribute at all. If anything, if they'd supported her, they would have been more attractive to students who believe in free speech and wanting to go and, you know, and study at the university. Yeah. So I would just say be brave, stand up, show other people that you're there, you know, and. And by doing that, we will we will gradually, hopefully turn the tide and. And our universities in higher education.
Is there anything else that? UK call them viewers, members of the public or even other academics can do to help to help support you. But because I want to do what I can. But if people see this and feel inspired to do something, what would you like them to do? Just start talking about it more. Just literally start talking about it more. Share it, share it. Why do, you know, share it with
other people? If you're, if you're seeing this on X or whatever, share it with other people, you know, let them know that there is an issue on, on universities on campus. You know, that, that I think one of the things I would say is that students always get a bad rap. You know, where all the the kind of stuff around, you know, the the war, for instance, you know, Israel, Gaza, Israel, Palestinian conflict students are seen as these shouty, you
know, vocal, difficult people. Those are just a minority of students. Those are the very vocal ones. And what I would say is that the vast majority of students are unfortunately self censoring, you know, at the moment because they maybe hold a different opinion to other to other students. So don't be put off and don't think that every single student's this shouty, you know, argumentative camping out in on on university nice loans, for instance. It's that's not the case.
The vast majority of us are just trying to get our degrees finished, are just trying to get a good grade. I'm trying to have a good time at university and make friends and have those friends, you know, hopefully for life. But more than importantly than that, we're there to learn the subject that we've paid money to go and learn. So don't don't think that all students are the same. We're very much not. We're very much diverse in our thoughts. And yeah.
And just support us as much as you can by just being vocal in your support. That's all we can ask, you know, at this time. So and then when you see us doing different events come along, you know, we're open to everybody. You know, we want to have that good debate and discussion and, and, and have everybody go away thinking something, you know, just just thinking, oh, right,
OK, that's really interesting. That might not have changed my mind completely, but I'm going to have a think about it now. And I think that's what university is all about at the end of the day. Absolutely. And then and that. True diversity, not the diversity that the EDI departments are trying to force on us, but true diversity at university. That's the real thing that we need to continue to promote that you and I experienced when we were 18.
And I really want those days to to come back. Thank you so much for your time today. Heather, it's been really great to speak with you about this. And I just want to say that I think the student a fast group is fabulous and you guys are amazing and brave and I'm so proud of what you're doing and and I will continue to support you in any way possible. Is there any final thing that you would like to add before we conclude? No, just to say thank you, Diane, It's.
Been a pleasure to speak to you and I'm I'm really heartened I will say as 43 year old women that I, we have a mixture of ages and SAFAF, but I'm also very heartened the amount of young people that are coming forward and want to join up. So I don't think all is lost in universities. I think we've got a real good, you know, mix of people coming forward and, and starting to speak up and I, I think it can only get better. So I, I'm very hopeful.
Whilst it might have sounded like maybe we weren't as hopeful sometimes in the, on an interview here, actually, I'm, I'm extremely positive about where we can go. Me too. We just have to keep going. And and not stop until we get there. Again, thank you for your time. It's been lovely to have you as a guest here on UK column and I will see you in my continued activism in your direction over on X from here on out. Thank you again. Thanks, Diane.