Stolen by the State

Good afternoon to the UK column viewers and listeners, wherever you are in the world. I'm joined today by another lady who's unfortunately had the experience of dealing with her family, so a daughter and social services. And really what is incredible for me is that over this year in particular, more and more of these stories have come forward. Now I've known for many years that there have been some really troubling incidents with social services in the UK going on.

But it seems really from probably about 6-7 months ago that a number of individual cases have come to the fore. People have got in touch with me and the fact that we have more people now prepared to do interviews, I regard as so important because it's the only way the truth can come out. Because as many people know, I'm always saying the thing about the family courts is that they're secret.

And aside from there being no jury or no press inside the court, normally the court also enforces reporting restrictions on not only mums and dads who get directly involved with the court, but they can also impose those reporting restrictions on other family members. So it does take courage to speak out. So today I'm joined by Claire. Claire contacted me a little while ago. We've had quite a long conversation on the telephone, but Claire, you decided that you wanted to speak out on this.

So I'm going to say well done for having the courage to stand up. And welcome to the UK column. Thank you. OK, well, the best place to start is always the beginning. How? How did things unfold for you as a family? OK, so in the beginning, social services initially did get involved when my daughter fell pregnant and they wanted to check that things were OK with the relationship. But they checked while her abusive partner was present.

And of course she said that everything was fine and she didn't disclose them, that there was serious issues. Then obviously her partner had no part in her first baby's life at all. Obviously, my granddaughter, he wasn't interested in being a father. He didn't have a bond whatsoever, but he made it very clear to her that if she were to leave the relationship, every time they had an argument, he would threaten to have her baby taken away from her, which was very concerning.

So obviously we had no issues at that point. I was helping raise my daughter's baby with her. We were like joint parents together, you know, since she was born. My daughter then got pregnant again, which he did not meet that baby at all. He wasn't interested. He'd moved on with someone else, a different partner. So obviously up until then we had no issues. We were just living a happy, happy life, you know, both the children.

My daughter reached the point where we decided we wanted a fresh start because he was turning up outside our house, revving his motorbike. And it was quite distressing for my daughter because she felt like he was trying to get her attention. And we also had, unfortunately, his abusive aunt was living opposite us too. And that had caused my daughter quite a lot of distress because she didn't feel like she was quite free from the abusive

relationship. So we decided to move and we thought we'd move hundreds of miles up north to protect the children and to protect my daughter so that we could start a new life so she could be happy and live in peace away from that

threat. Because obviously he was a danger being around the children with everything that he had done to my daughter, including strong violence, coercive control, stealing all her money, also stealing his daughter's money, threatening to kill her, saying that he'd actually planned her death. It was very, very highly concerning behaviour. So before we moved, my daughter reported the whole theme to the police.

She actually had a six hour interview with the police and the policeman who actually interviewed her was so angry by all the incidences that she reported about their entire relationship and he wanted to go and arrest him there and then. My daughter was too scared of the repercussions because of his aunt. They've been opposite us and we

hadn't moved at that point. And she didn't know what he was going to do because he was in contact with some very kind of dubious characters as well, which he threatened to obviously, you know, to set on to my daughter in some of their arguments. So my daughter decided not to press charges, but she made it very clear to the police that we were moving hundreds of miles up north for her protection and for

her children's protection. And we were reassured by the police that we were doing the right thing, that if he was to find our location, we could get a non molestation order and a restraining order and that we were doing the right thing. You know, my daughter asked many times, am I doing the right thing? You know, is this OK? Can I do this? And she was reassured by the police, Yes, you can. Yes, this is good. You're doing the right thing. Can you just come in there?

Can I can I ask, did you get a crime number when when you reported this? Was everything done properly by the police at the time? Yeah, was yeah, it was reported there was a crime number. We had the P CS name as well and his number and he assured my daughter it would stay on file and if she ever wanted to press further charges that he could reopen it and take further action against her ex partner. Right. So we felt very reassured that there was no it'll be no issues there.

Right. So you, you move hundreds of miles away too, which is which is quite a major thing to have to do in order to get away from somebody. But I understand why you why you'd want to do it. So what? What happens when you move? It was life changing because obviously we'd left behind all the friends that we knew there and our family and we obviously

had to up, you know, everything. I have adult sons as well who decided to come with us also because obviously they didn't want to be, you know, left behind. So it was a big life changing thing for all of us. We knew we were making the right decision because we were thinking about the children. We wanted them to live in peace.

And I didn't want my daughter living with the threat of, you know, constantly worrying that he was going to turn up outside the house to be intimidating because it wasn't the fact that he didn't want to have contact with the children. He wanted to make his presence known in an intimidating, you know, fashion outside our our property. Right, but I I believe that your son's also experienced some of

his behaviour directly. Yes, he was actually residing in my property for about 6 months while him and my daughter were trying to make a go of things. And what had happened on one particular day is that he'd been particularly abusive on this day and she'd asked him multiple times to leave the property and he said no. He refused point blank that he

was not going to leave. He was laughing at her, mocking her, and then he started throwing her phone and throwing items of wet clothing at her and threatening that he was going to take her baby away. So at this point, after this had been going on for about half an hour, my son decided to go in there and confront him and tell him he needed to leave because he wasn't listening to his sister.

And obviously he was very concerned about her being abused and her, you know, she was very distraught, very upset. In which case a scuffle then broke out between him and my son and he actually got my son in a neck lock with his legs and started to strangle him because he had these type of skills where he knows the amount of pressure that he can use with his legs to. He'd done some martial arts training. Fighting, yeah cage fighting

skills he had. So my son was obviously forced to use self defence to get his legs off otherwise he was going to be strangled. To which case I then ran into the room and said to him leave the house now and shouted at him. He finally left our property and what he did he ran straight and called the police on my son and said that my son had assaulted him. So the police did not press any charges against my son.

They said it was very clearly self defence and we'd explained the whole incident of what had happened, that he was refusing to leave the house and obviously my son had had to intervene to go in there and there was no charges brought against my son. Right. This this indicates that this this individual was not only prepared to be abusive to to a young woman, but he was also prepared to take on a male as well. Yeah, yeah, he was.

And he felt, he felt quite angry that obviously my son had intervened in protecting his sister. Yes. And just to clarify on the children at this this stage, was was this this the abuse happening while there was just one child or was there two children? Yeah, the abuse was happening when there was only one child my daughter fell pregnant with. Well, technically it was their third one.

She actually miscarried in between when he was particularly abusive and very unempathetic and uncompassionate when she went through the miscarriage. But when she was pregnant with their third child that she actually gave birth to, she did not see him at all. He was actually. He moved on to another relationship with another young girl when she was halfway through the pregnancy. Right. And, and, and that has been that had been part of trying to make a girl with this very difficult

relationship. Yes, because what he would do is every time she broke free he would try and manipulate her back and he would say that he'd changed and that he was going to be a good partner and a good father. Although he never had a bond. He didn't do any of the changing nappies or feeding bottles. Not one single parental duty did he do and he didn't have a bond either. He wasn't interested from day one with his daughter at all.

In fact, he he spent all her baby money that she had in her bank account and also he wouldn't even buy her a birthday present on her first birthday, which was quite telling as well. Right, so by the time you move Claire, how, how old were the two children then? So my daughter's son was born in the late September and we moved February the following year.

So he'd never met his son and he hadn't seen his daughter since May that year when my daughter cut all contact and we moved in the February. And how was your granddaughter then? She was 2. Right. So 2 very young children, basically, Yeah. So, so you, you move away. You've it's not as though you just disappeared. You'd actually discuss with the police this is the course of action that you thought was best and they they agreed with you.

And of course, as you've said, if, if there was to be further incidents, then then you, you could take action through the courts to get some protection. So you move, huge family upheaval and and what happens then?

Well, we were living really in peace and my daughter actually started healing because obviously she'd been through quite a lot of trauma through what he had put her through and she was really concentrating on just being a really good mum, you know, to her babies and you know, being in a new environment and putting it all behind her. She didn't have the threats or the worry about him turning up. She felt really safe and at peace and both her children were really thriving.

They were doing really well. They were very healthy. They were never I'll, they'd been seen by the health visitor 3 times and on those 3 occasions she'd said that they were both meeting all their milestones. They were very healthy, they were thriving and there was no 'cause for concern whatsoever and that they had both had a very loving bond with me, the grandmother and with their mum. She's obviously took note of that. How long were things quiet then?

You you move and as far as you're concerned, things have really settled down and presumably you feel the pressures coming off. How? How long did that last? Did that piece last for? So we moved in the February and the first we knew that there was a Kafkaas officer involved was in October that same year. And she randomly turned up at the door.

And it brought all my daughter's trauma back, flooding back, because she was wondering what on earth she was doing on our doorstep because obviously had been no cause for concern from the children. And as far as she was concerned, we were living a new life, we told the police. So we had no idea why she was there. And Claire as a as a family, have you had any, any previous interaction with social services, CAF, gas?

No, only when my daughter first got with her partner because she was underage, they wanted to question whether she'd been coerced into unlawful sexual intercourse. So obviously what they did though, they actually asked her in the presence of her ex, which is not very wise thing to do because if a young girl is being coerced into a relationship, she's not going to tell you in front of her abusive partner.

So obviously she's everything was fine and there was no concerns and she wanted to make a happy family. She's obviously ultimately what she did want. She did want, you know, them to be a happy family together, yes. Well, thank, thank you for saying that.

The reason I, I ask that question is because I know that in many of these cases where social services get involved in a very direct and, and I think a lot of families would say aggressive way there, there has been previous interaction with them. But in your case, you know, you've explained that actually that that that was a, that was a

relatively normal interaction. They were simply checking everything was OK. Although as you point out, they didn't do it in a very sensible way, bearing in mind the relationship, right? So Kafkaas appears and they start to ask questions. Yeah, she was not a very nice lady. When she came to her doorstep she was very cold and she was very rude to my daughter.

And when my daughter burst into tears and was very distraught, visibly distraught, and she said that she'd obviously fled her abuser, the Kafkaas officer turned around and said to her alleged abuse in a very patronising time, which was, in my opinion, a disgusting way to behave to someone that's just escaped domestic abuse to them. Basically, you're basically calling them a liar by saying alleged abuse. You know, in a very patronising way.

And it, and it's also incredible, Claire, because Kafka's first duty is, is the protection of the child. It's not protection of the parent, whether it's the mother or the father. So she that apparently court papers have been served to our next door neighbour, which is very strange because obviously we said, well, we haven't received any court papers whatsoever, which we hadn't. We even checked with our neighbour and they said they

haven't received any either. My daughter was obviously very concerned about where they'd got our address from, and she said that she traced my daughter's address through her benefits. Well. So. So why did the Kafkaes lady actually say she was there? Because it turns out my daughter's ex had actually, as soon as he'd been told by his aunt, who obviously lived opposite us at the time, he got told that we'd moved out. So obviously he then didn't know where we were.

So he went to the courts the following month in March, and we moved in February to file the custody of the children to gain control of them. OK, so so he makes a complaint and then the next minute Kafkaes is involved and they've already started court proceedings in what presumably was going to be a custody battle. Yeah, obviously we didn't know because we hadn't received any of the court papers whatsoever because they didn't have our address.

And then the Kafkaas officer claimed that one of the court letters had gone to our next door neighbour, which is very odd because if they knew that, then why didn't they then serve another one to our address? So that in itself was very strange. Can I just add there and, and to formally serve papers, they've got to be served to the individual. They can't even be left outside somebody's door. They've got to be put in the hand of an individual. That's what serving serving

legal documents is is all about. So obviously we had no knowledge. I then decided to try and get some type of advice because, you know, I was concerned for my daughter and for my grandchildren because, you know, they were very happy and settled in their new life. And we didn't, you know, we were very concerned about the upheaval of what was going to happen next. We didn't really know, you know, what was going to happen.

So I actually sought legal advice from, can I name the people, the people's lawyer, and they advised me not to interact with the social services. They said not to consent to, you know, to any assessments or anything like that or if they came to our door again, to just tell them that we don't consent. So obviously that's what I believe that obviously we were supposed to have done. How did that progress? Then this lady disappears. What's What's the next thing

that happens? So then we didn't hear anything for a whole year, and we actually thought that everything was all peaceful and calm. We thought, oh good, you know, she's obviously gone and looked at the police files and discovered that actually there's, you know, six hours of statements from my daughter explaining, you know, what had gone on with all the abuse. So they must have obviously decided that, you know, that he shouldn't be around the children. That's what we thought.

So we thought because obviously we hadn't heard for a whole year, that's a long time to then pass not hearing anything. So next thing we heard was July the following year. We received a letter through the Post from the health visitor. Saying that she wanted to perform my grandson's two year

check. Now, what was alarm bells for me is that it was about 3 months earlier than his second year birthday, which was very strange because as I'm a mother of four, I've obviously had experience with all my children being seen by the health visitor and they never ever come early for a two year check. It's always when they're two or after they're two just because otherwise they've not necessarily met all the milestones that they're supposed to be reaching, you know, by the age of 2.

So for us, that was a bit, for me, I felt a bit concerned because I thought that's very strange. But we decided to allow the health to come anyway to see what it was all about, why she was coming early. When she turned up in July, she knocked on the door and I opened the door and all of a sudden, social worker was hiding down her alleyway. She suddenly ran to the front door. And the health is to look really sheepish. And I said, have you not come for my grandson's two year check?

Because I thought it was a bit strange that it's early. And she said, no, I'm sorry. She said the social worker wanted me to arrange it early so she could see the children. She was desperate to see the children. So obviously, we were very, you know, upset by this. And we felt like our trust had been betrayed. So we didn't allow the social work to come into the house, but we did allow the health visitor because obviously we didn't have an issue with the health visitor.

She'd seen the children previously three times. But as she entered her house, she told us that she would not be able to carry out the two year check because it was too early. So obviously we were very kind of shocked thinking, well, why have you said you're coming for the two year check if you're not? And that's a blatant lie and deception.

So of course that would make anyone doubt, you know, you'd feel a betrayal and kind of a lack of trust there because you know you've been lied to and deceived. Well, and and these two are supposedly professionals in child health, health, child healthcare and child protection. So you would expect them to be meticulous in in doing their job in the proper way. You've used the right terminology because essentially they use deceit in order to get

into your home. And then it was from what you've said, it's clear to me that the health visitor was being manipulated by the social worker. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So then what happened? We told the health visitor that obviously, you know, we weren't happy about what she'd done. We said, you know, you've really kind of betrayed our trust here because, you know, we thought that you were coming for the two year check and we thought it was strange anyway because it was early.

She then informed us she would be coming back in November to actually carry out his two year check and she asked us if we would agree to that. So we were kind of in two minds because we were in a stage of shock about what had just happened. So we kind of said, OK, well, yeah, we'll let you come in November. So after they'd left, we kind of thought about it a bit more. And we were thinking, you know, this just doesn't seem right, you know, it seems very, very deceitful.

So in November, she turned up at the door and my daughter asked me to go and speak to her. She said, can you tell her mum that I'm not happy for her to continue seeing my children just because I feel really deceived and let down, you know, so I'm not going to continue letting her see the children.

So obviously I went and explained the situation to the health visitor and to my absolute shock she was really understanding and she said to me, Oh yes, she said, I know about these mums that are fleeing to other countries to protect their children from social services. So I was like. Wow. Like, you know, you've heard about this. So obviously I was shocked she told me this.

So she said, don't worry, she said, I'll write you a glowing report because I know the children are very well looked after. You know, they've got no issues. So I was really reassured by that and I thought, well, that's good. You know, she knows about what's going on. There's obviously something very kind of dubious going on with the social services and she's willing to write us a glowing report. So obviously that's going to go in our favour because they'll

know there's no concerns. So then she left and we felt reassured that there was no issues. Then Fast forward to February the following year, we had decided to go for a break and we did a little bit of travelling with the children, me and my daughter and the two grandchildren because we just wanted to get away, you know, for a break to kind of like you do from everyday life. And the first we knew that there was anything wrong is I got a very urgent panicked call from my one of my sons.

And he said to me, mum, the police have broken down the door. And I was absolutely shocked and in horror. And I said, what do you mean they've broken down the door? And he said his partner had been in the house and. That's that's your house. That's your house you're talking. About my house, she was house sitting my house while he was at work. She phoned him to say the police have just some. Well, she didn't know it was the police. First of all, she didn't know

who it was. She said somebody has just broken the door down and she was obviously terrified because she was upstairs by herself. So because they hadn't announced that it was the police, there was no announcement made that it was the police. So obviously my son thankfully was just round the corner in his work van. He was able to get dropped off outside the house. He came in to find out what was going on and there was lots of police in the house. They put him in handcuffs

unlawfully. They did not announce who they were. They didn't read out any of his rights whatsoever. They didn't tell him why they were putting him in handcuffs. They then did an unlawful body search on him as well. And so obviously he was very distressed. They then started obviously interrogating him and his partner and he then got me on the phone because he was concerned. He was like, mum, I don't know what, you know, what's going on here, like what do I do kind of thing.

So at this point we were in Scotland and obviously we became very upset when we could see what was going on and hear what was going on with the police. And he'd been repeatedly telling them that he didn't want the social workers to be let into the house as well because two social workers had turned up and they were trying to gain access to the property. And he told them very clearly that he didn't consent.

So they'd said that they've been told by a particular social worker, the same one that's been involved the whole way through, that the children hadn't been seen since last year and there was a serious cause for concern of their lives. Basically. That's why they had the reason to break our door down. That's what they said. Claire, were these police plainclothes in plainclothes?

There was a mixture, there was a mixture of uniform and my son said also there was a couple that were not identifiable. They were wearing just suits and he didn't know who they were. They didn't identify themselves. So there was a mixture. No warning is shouted. It's the police, you know, open your door. The first thing your son's partner hears is the front door has been smashed in and she's got individuals coming into the house. That that's truly shocking. Yeah, she was terrified.

She didn't know what was happening. And obviously she got on the phone immediately to my son, and it was just, you know, by God's grace that he was around the corner and he was able to get here very, very quickly. But then they then put him through trauma too, because obviously they put him in handcuffs and unlawfully gave him a body search to find out if he had any items on him. He contacts you when you you learn what's going on and what

what happens then. So then they made it clear that they wanted to see the children. They said that it had been reported that the children had not been seen since last year and they wanted to do a welfare cheque. So they'd already been threatened in coercing my son because my son was a landscape gardener, he had axes and he had some other like bushcraft tools and things like that. And we also had some pellet guns in the property as well.

Now they're perfectly lawful. Nothing was wrong with them at all. But they started saying to my son, well, you know, we don't know if there's been a new legislation that's been passed. They said some of these items might actually be illegal now. So if that's the case, you know, we can actually technically arrest you and check, you know, if they're illegal. So they put him into a corner where he felt like they were trying to manipulate him.

Very, very wrong. He had the whole thing recorded as well. And obviously that's why he then was, you know, eager for us to kind of share our location of where we were. And my daughter obviously felt, you know, a kind of A cause for concern for her brother, thinking, you know, I don't want him to go through anything unlawful, especially after what they've they've already done, you know, so she she agreed to the police.

She said, OK, you can send police around to our travel lodge where we're staying right now in Scotland, and you can check that my children are both fine. And they agreed that once they've done that and they found out the children were OK, that would be it. They would leave us alone because they'd be satisfied that there was no 'cause of concern. So obviously, even though we were shaken up, we were kind of reassured, like there's nothing

to worry about. They then sent round very, very quickly to Scottish police to our travel lodge and the police spoke to my daughter and by then my other two sons had joined us because they'd come up on the train to meet us in Scotland. All four of us got questioned, me and my daughter and my two other sons, you know, about what we were doing up there and they wanted to look at the children. They said, oh, the children look very, you know, well fed, they look healthy.

There's no cause for concerns. We can see you've got lots of food here as well. So, you know, they had absolutely no concerns. But they said they wanted to get 2 Scottish social workers down to to the travel lodge just to double check that they had no concerns as well. We waited for these two social workers to arrive. It took quite most of the day, you know this time in the Travelodge of them talking to us and then waiting for the social

workers to arrive. When they arrived there was 2 ladies that turned up, I cannot recall their names but they seemed very surprised about why they were there in the 1st place. And they said we don't really know why we're here, but you know, we can clearly see there's nothing wrong with the children. You know, they're both look perfectly, you know, well cared for, well fed and you've got plenty of food, they've got good clothes and, you know, no

concerns whatsoever. So again, we were reassured there's no issues. They've got no 'cause for concern. So they said to my daughter, listen, we've been informed by your social worker where you live that you've got a court hearing on the Tuesday. Now this was Friday that this happened. So we knew that obviously we had the whole weekend and up to Tuesday, she said, to get back to our local town where there was going to be a court hearing. So that was it.

So we thought, OK, we were really shaken up by the whole day because it had been, you know, obviously very traumatic, as you can imagine, you know, having my house broken into, seeing my son go through that and then obviously them coming and kind of interrogating us to find out what we were doing.

So but then we felt kind of a little bit at ease because we thought, right, we can just relax now and just make sure we get back for the court hearing on Tuesday and find out what's going on, what all this is about. The next morning I woke up and I had this really bad feeling in my stomach. I couldn't shake what it was, but I just had this really bad feeling, like something bad was

going to happen. But I didn't tell the rest of my family because I didn't want to kind of alarm them and I thought maybe it was because of the previous day. Anyway, about 12:00 midday is a Bang Bang Bang Bang bang at our travel lodge and two different Scottish social workers turned up, accompanied by around six. Police first of all. And they said they had an emergency court order to take the children and they demanded my grandson was asleep on the

bed having a nap. And they they demanded that we get them dressed and ready and put them in the car ready to be driven off now bearing in mind that they had never been. Separated from us, Not for one single. Day and one single night, we were obviously very, very distraught and we were really worried about our grandchildren.

Well, my grandchildren and my granddaughter was only four and she started shouting at them saying I don't want to go with the strange dangers, I don't want to go with the strange dangers. And she was really visibly distressed and my grandson was still sleeping. I don't know how he was still sleeping, but he was still sleeping. And they, they didn't give me the court order that they literally threw it across the

bed in an envelope and I kept. Saying to them, you know, you're not going to read it out to me. You're not going to show me what what it is that you're presenting me with. And they said you can read it if you want. So I said. Well, can you let me read it then? So I opened the envelope and I start reading it and it said that they had an emergency court order to take the children and it wasn't signed. There was no signature on it. There was no court stamp.

And so immediately that that got my attention because I thought, you know, this doesn't seem legitimate, like this seems fraudulent to me. So I, I kept questioning and I said, look, there's no signature on us. How is this right? And I kept trying to bargain with them saying, you know, like, I don't understand why this is happening. I said, do you not understand there's no cause for concern of why the children are with us? Like why are you taking them? And they kept.

Saying that they were following orders, they'd been given a court order and they had to basically abide by it. And I kept saying, could you not use your moral compass? I said, you must know this is wrong. And I explained to them about the domestic. I said, look, you've got it all filed. I said, you know, I said we not only fold it at our original hometown, I said, but also my daughter went to our local town when we moved and she filed more reports because her ex had been

harassing. And stalking us on social media trying to find out our location. And she'd been there again and she'd also given them another four to six hours again of further statement. So, you know, we thought the whole police force should be aware of our situation and the danger and the threat to the children from her ex partner. And so, you know, to us, it didn't make any. Sense as to why they were coming to take the children.

Claire, as as you talk through this, I'm, I'm thinking of other cases where the mums, usually the mums and mums and dads in, in a couple of them where children were taken in this sort of very brutal and cold way. And I and I, I know from, from the time 11 family, we were very close to and I absolutely saw the trauma that this caused not only the parents, but also of course, the children. So the child protection system causing the children fear and anxiety supposedly to protect

them. It's, it's quite bizarre, but the callousness of it, I understand the callousness of it because I have seen it. And your, your daughter, I think we should emphasise at this stage is still a very, very young mum. She wasn't very old, was she? No, she was 20 at the time when it happened and she was so traumatised. She actually had a proper panic attack and she started hyperventilating and the police said to me, sort her out. That was their exact words, sort

your daughter out. There was no assistance. There was no one rushing to her aid. You know, she was hyperventilating. And I was expected to sort her out at the same time as keeping my grandchildren calm and trying to keep calm myself. And they were telling me if I didn't hurry up and get the children dressed and ready, that I was basically interfering and I was obstructing what they've been told to do and that I would be facing arrest and spending the whole weekend in the police

cell. That's what they told me. And then they said you won't be there then to support your family and to help them get the children back. Everything about the police and social services action is threatening, it's abusive. And I am also reading between the lines a little bit, but also knowing some things about how these things get done, that there's a, a psychological aspect to it as well. You're being psychologically bullied and what, what do they do?

You get the children dressed and what happens? Yeah, at this point, my grandson, he woke up and he was wondering what was going on. He started getting a bit distressed because there were so many strangers all around. Now bearing in mind my grandson has always had autistic traits since he was born, he was basically non verbal and obviously he'd never been away from me or my daughter and the same with my granddaughter, they hadn't either.

So being faced with all these strangers demanded that they were being handed over. And obviously my granddaughter, she was very aware of what they were saying. She kept saying mummy I don't want to go, I don't want to leave you. She said I I don't want to go with the stranger dangers and she screwed up the court order and she threw it at the police. She was so upset and she was aware that it was to do with this bit of paper. Yeah, take, take, take your time, Claire, because these

things are really difficult. It was the most traumatic thing we've ever been through in our lives and it dragged out for about an hour and a half, which again, they got angry with me. Because I they expected us to just literally. Get the children dressed and just hand them over.

That's what they expected. And even though I was very calm and I was staying calm and I was trying to reason with them and trying to tell them the facts, they still said that I obstructed and that I was making them worse. They said I was causing the grandchildren upset and it wasn't. It's because my granddaughter knew exactly what was going on. She could hear them saying you need to put the children in the car. You need to get them ready to go.

You know, my daughter kept saying can I come to? And they gave my daughter false hope because she said please don't let me be separated from them. They've never been away from me before ever in their lives. And they said they were going to ask somebody if she could come in the car with them, which was a lie. We realised afterwards it was a blatant lie. They had no intention of my daughter going with them. But they gave her false hope and she kept saying can you phone up

now? And they said this is what they said, which is really callous. And we have all this recorded on video. They said that as soon as the children were in the car, they were going to make the phone call and find out if my daughter could come as well. So obviously, as soon as the children were in the car, they speed off at lightning speed. Like I'm talking super fast. It was like something out of a movie. You know, there was no kind of safety, like driving off slowly.

They literally just speed like they were fleeing the scene, you know, of a crime. It was like that. And then my daughter just burst into floods of tears and we would just stood there just hugging each other and just crying, you know, and I and I, I shouted out to a member of public. I said they're stealing our children. And, and I was told to be quiet. It was I wanted someone to intervene to help because I was thinking this isn't right. I was thinking, how can this be

happening? I couldn't get my head around how it could be happening. And then my daughter got a phone call and they said, sorry, you're not allowed to come. And we knew that that had been their intention all along, but they gave her that false hope as well, which was like. Extra you know it's. Just extra vindictive. It's like, why would you do that? Why would you give a mother false hope they can come with their children and then say, Oh no, actually you can't.

They obviously knew that she wasn't going to go with them in the first place. Well, this, This is why I mentioned the psychological aspect to you, because very often when when I talk to mum's parents that have been involved in these cases, they talk about this very sinister use of psychology, lies, twisting of the facts, choice of words, which is disturbing to the parents. And it, it's clear that the use of the, these sort of psychological tactics are not accidental.

They, they seem to be. It's some parents have described it, that it, it was almost as though they were using a template in what they did and what they said. But you, you as a parent were a target for some really unpleasant psychological tricks. That's how it seems to me. Yeah, none of it made any sense at all. And The thing is. Claire, sorry, just to come come back in. What? What reaction did you get from the police?

The car goes with the two children and you're obviously left there with some of the police officers. What? What do they say to you? So I told them all that they were going to be held accountable. I looked at them all and I said you're going to be held accountable by the Most High. I said you think that you're not?

I said, you know, you, everyone knows like you're all going to be held accountable because I truly believe that you know what you do in this life you're going to pay the price for. And I said each one of you, I said, that's been complicit in this because I said, none of you have stopped this from happening when you could have done because I've told you the truth and you could have looked into it and you could have stopped this.

And they all just looked at me. And one of the police officers actually turned around and said, oh, don't worry, they won't be going. Anywhere near your daughter's ex abuser. That's what he said I had. I have him on film saying that. Right. Were they all? Were they all males? Mostly males, but there were a couple of females. But there were the majority, the ones who were doing the talking and the one who was mocking my daughter as well. He was male. Can you please leave now in

Jesus Christ's name? You do not have the authority to take her children away from her. She's the mother. No, we're not receiving it. We're not accepting it. We haven't consented. You don't have the authority over gods to take her children. Can you leave now? No, You need to leave now. The name of Jesus Christ's name. Please leave. I need you to leave now like. Three one minute right I. Need you to leave.

What we're all doing here is just trying, we're trying to kind of tone it down a wee bit, OK, and see the see the see the fact that we're still going on about it just now we were. Shorts. Bring it down a wee minute, OK 'cause you'll need to talk to each other quite civilly in the now, right? What we'll do is try and not upset the children anyway. It's not legal. Can you listen? To 3 minutes, I'm I'm still, I'm still talking. I'm still talking. She has separation anxiety. They have.

Daughters these two this needs to be done OK these two they. Can't. Yeah. They don't have authority. You don't have authority. That's not authority. It's corruption. This is corruption. It's not. It's unlawful. This is illegal. It's illegal. Listen to me because we're repeating here they're. Stealing children. You're stealing children. You're kidnapping them. These two individuals. Without our consent? No. You're kidnapping them. You're kidnapping them. You.

Are kidnapping them now. I need you to leave in Jesus Christ name. I need you to leave in Jesus Christ name now please. You are kidnapping the children. This is kidnapping. You can't kidnap children from their mother. That's evil. St Judge sitting in private. No official court stamp which makes it immediately illegal. Can we can we focus on the content please? No, because it means this. Can you? Can you focus on the right

thing? The applicant local authority in Sheffield City Council. Can you photograph this please? There's no official court, No official court stuff. I'm just recording. That. You're not taking. The. Official people here from the police on the social care to take the children. And there's no official court stuff and there's no waiting signature. Is it possible for Bethany to go with the children? That would make it a lot easier. To see if that's.

But there's probably a good possibility that can happen. But this is. Which stomach does she? Before. Which toys would you like us to take? I need. To find all his Thomas ones. This is so wrong. This is so wrong. Are you not? Are you not checking to see if Bethany? Can go with that. I just said that to. You. No, no. But I'm just clarifying that with the social workers. I love you. Have you got your baby? What about the rest of the toilet if they've got their

bottles? Anything you guys can have a look at and bring a? Spice the next way they put. Bottles. Bottles. Upstairs. Come on, can you go? Have you got the key? Jamie, go grab Bethen spine. Be braved on in The Cave. I will find you 32. I will get you back. I promise. I promise I'm going to get you back. Give me a kiss. I love you. You're 2 going to be together. Please stay together for me and take care of, take care of you. Love you both so much please. No, no, no, there was a phone

call. I'm going to phone my manager on my way back and if you can travel, but I need to speak to Sheffield as well because they have to allow you to return with the kids. So I need to ask him. So it might be another 10 or 15 minutes. OK, I'll be back in touch, be in line for the next. Two years. When we see his little. Bethany has just been served with these court orders at a hotel in Scotland with a court case that she's been told she has to attend and it's already happening.

So she has absolutely no opportunity of getting there to be heard. It says it's today, 20, the 23rd of February 2024 at 2:00 PM and the time now is 230, 2:30 PM. And they've literally the woman's just knocked on the door and served this with Bethany. And she said, I'm sorry that it's already happening now, but I've been told to serve you with these papers. The children are gone. You as a family must have been there. Absolutely shell shocked. And what?

What do you do next? We didn't know what to do. We were literally in pieces and we were obviously in Scotland and the children had just got into a stranger's car that we had no idea who they were. We didn't know where they were going, but my daughter, my daughter was given a phone number and she kept on texting the number saying where are my children, where are they going? And she wasn't getting any response and no replies whatsoever.

We found out afterwards that that was actually the social workers number. So she was supposed to have had a duty to inform my daughter of where her children were. And she was not responding to any of the messages. And she, in fact, she didn't respond until later on, very later on at night. Because obviously we then had the real difficulty of getting ourselves in our state of absolute upset and distraught. We had to try and get back. We had to get all our stuff packed up.

From where we were. Staying on holiday and we had to then get to the train station and my daughter had the double push chair for the children. Which she then had to put a luggage on that and wheel that back, which again, was really, really hard for her because pushing an empty double pushchair without your children. Is is horrific.

Nothing. Any mother that can understand that it's like going to a hospital to have, you know, a child and then coming back with an empty car seat, you know, without the child is it's horrific. So that in itself was really, really difficult. And then she didn't get told until really late at night that the children had been handed over to her ex abuser who didn't know them was a complete stranger to both children. Just tell me that again, when when were they they handed over

to the to the partner? So we didn't find out until after how it had actually panned out, but what we were told is that the children had been driven directly from Scotland. To Sheffield and was then they were met by her ex abuser. He then got on a train and took them directly back to where he lives in Essex. All on the same day, which would have been incredibly distressing for both the children, especially being handled from stranger to stranger.

Without knowing any of them, I'm wondering where we were. Yeah. And as, as you were telling this, this story clear, and particularly when you get to this bit, I'm sat here and I'm thinking, I wonder how the audience is reacting to this. Because I can imagine there are people saying, I'd say, I just can't believe this. I can't believe what I'm hearing. I'm not saying that to doubt you. I I absolutely believe what you're talking about because I've heard it so many times before.

But I can imagine people in the audience absolutely stunned themselves to hear what what you've just described. And yet this is reality. This is what goes on in in the child protection system. So how, how, how does it progress from there? Is, is there, is there a court? Is there a court date already set? When, when does that appear? When the details of the court appear. They did have a court hearing

and. The really tragic thing is that we were kept away from the children for a whole month after they were taken, which is probably one of the most distressing parts for the children, especially because, you know, for me, what goes through my head is them thinking that we've abandoned them and wondering. Where their family is because they did not know their dad at

all. My granddaughter had no recollection of him because she'd only seen him when she was a very, very tiny baby, so she didn't know his face. She didn't know any of his relatives. Obviously my grandson had never met him, so they were all strangers completely and then being kept away from us.

For a whole. Month and when we turned up at the court hearing we were appointed A solicitor which we thought was from the Christian Aid people, but it turned out she didn't even know who the Christian Aid was and it became very apparent from the OnStar that she was very eager to follow instructions given to her. By the court. And not to look any of my daughter's evidence, which obviously was highly, highly concerning to both me and my daughter, because we thought it

was going to be straightforward. We thought they're going to look at all the police reports, They're going to see that we fled domestic. The police knew about it, and they're going to say there's been a terrible mistake and we're going to give the children back. That's in our minds. That's what we thought was going to happen and it couldn't have been further from the truth.

Right. And, and was there just one court hearing and, and yes, the other question which goes the tell us about the court hearing, why were you in court ultimately why, why did, why did they bring you into that court hearing? OK, so we found out afterwards that my daughter's ex abuser had actually filed lies against our family and said that we were a danger to the children because he didn't believe that they were having access to the doctors and he didn't believe that they were

going to be in school. There was and also he was very concerned that they hadn't been vaccinated. That was his top priority. So apparently that gives the social services the impression that you are not looking up your children's welfare by those 3. Factors, yes. And I've, I've certainly heard that before.

And I think there are many parents that have been under pressure because if they've had any reservations about vaccinating their children, that seems to almost put them on a target list or it certainly worsens relations with social services. So the in the court hearing then I'll try not to pre empt you here. All right, but why don't I say it? I would assume that your solicitor doesn't present any of the key evidence showing your side of the story.

None whatsoever. No, in fact, they had it. It's like they already had it laid out exactly what they were going to do. It's like it had been all planned and they were sticking to the plan. That's the impression I got. It's it seems like they wanted to transfer the children to his custody. For what reasons? They obviously we can only guess what reasons they had there, but they definitely weren't interested in looking at any of the facts whatsoever.

In fact, when I looked through the case, I was horrified that the whole case was built on lies, slander, opinions and assumptions all the way through the entire case file. Right. And and was it a full days hearing? No, it was literally about an hour. That was it. And what and what was the result? So the solicitor came out and she said something very

concerning to my daughter. She said the court had said that as the children had been taken, it was probably going to be too traumatic to return them all the way back to where we were because of the distance and the fact they'd already removed them from us. And so that to us was a massive alarm bell because it didn't sound like they had any intention of returning the children. You say the solicitor came out. Were you and your daughter not

in the court? Maybe you wouldn't have been, but I would have expected your daughter to have actually been in the court. So what it turned out is that while we were sitting outside the court, she was going back and forth having discussions with the cult without my daughter being present. So I, I'm obviously not clued up on how courts work with the family court and I had no inclination about what goes on and how it is actually, you know, supposed to unfold. But this is what was happening.

She was going back and forth, talking, two people in the family court and coming back and relaying information to me and my daughter who was sitting outside. This, this is incredible, Claire, because out of all the things I've heard about family courts, I've never heard about this sort of conduct that that the solicitor is sort of acting as a go between in and out of court. Because if you're not in court, you're not in court.

This is a key thing. Stepping into the court is bringing you into the to the family court itself. And if you're not actually in the court, you're not in the court. So there was something very untoward going on here with that solicitor. Yeah, there was. And obviously, I was in floods of tears at the time, and I had been told that I wasn't allowed to get involved, which I actually believed.

And, you know, in hindsight, I wish that I hadn't listened to that at the time because, you know, as my daughter's mother and having such a pivotal role in the children's upbringing because obviously I've been there since both births. And obviously I was like the other parent, you know, I was doing all the duties of the parent that they would be doing. They told me that it was not my case.

I didn't have parental responsibility, so I was not allowed to get involved and I was not allowed to be inside the court hearing. Now, I later found out that actually I could have been in the court as my daughter's support, but they did not give me that information, which I was

very annoyed about. Yes, you could have been there as even as your daughter's Mackenzie friend, but but to me it's, it's very clear that you, you'd got a history of, of caring for the children and helping your daughter to care for the children. So that would have been a particularly strong case for you to have actually been in court. So a hearing, did you say about an hour? Is that what you said to me? Yeah. And then they tell you the children can't go back because

you're too far away. Yeah, and they said they've already removed them now. So it's, it's unlikely they're going to move them all the way back until the court hearings of, you know, obviously finished when they've actually decided, you know, what's going to happen basically. All right. So, OK. So, so they were treating this sort of as a preliminary

hearing. They were suggesting that this was almost a fact finding hearing and then there were going to be future hearings where the future of the children

was going would be decided. Yes, but we later found out when I started looking through the court papers that they'd already mocked both children up for possible adoption, which was very shocking to me because when I went down the files it said before they'd even decided they were going to give the children to my daughter's ex abuser, it said possible adoption. It said yes on both children and I was absolutely flabbergasted. I thought how can they both be mocked for possible adoption?

I, I pause because again, if the audience will absolutely be with, with you and what you're saying, Claire, how is this possible? Because this is what they do. So we, we have, we have social services, we have a child protection system, which is a law unto itself. And it's it's clear that when children are taken for whatever reason, why they're targeted, sometimes you can't quite

explain that. But when children are taken, social services simply make a decision as to what what is going to happen with those children bad enough that they're they're placed with a father who's who's been abusive. But then you discover that somebody has taken a decision. Say it. Well, we'll put we'll put the children through for adoption. It it's some well I'll say mother recently that I've done another interview with who had a baby taken away from her described the processes like a

scary movie. Yeah. That's how this has all felt like. It's not real. That every day I wake up and I feel like it's all going to be over and I'm going to be back to how we were, you know, because The thing is with my grandchildren is that in the night, my grandson would often come across the corridor and he'd come into my room and get into my bed and cuddle up to me in the night. And, you know, after they were taken, I kept wait, I couldn't

sleep. I literally spent about the first few months not being able to sleep more than two hours. And I kept thinking, I heard his footsteps coming across the floor. It's just I can't even explain the words. I literally I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep, I couldn't properly function. It's it's grieving for a loss, isn't it is what it is. And, and if somebody dies to, you know, take it to a very basic level. If somebody dies, you know what's happened and the grieving happens.

But at least as an adult, you understand what's happened to the person. But when, when children have been taken away, not only is there a hole because they've gone, but you've got this constant underlying worry as to how they are. Are they well, are they being treated properly? And that, that is huge psychological pressure. It was because also we had a really good routine because my grandson was a very, very early

riser. So he would get up at. 5:30 every morning and I would always go downstairs with him. For a couple of hours and my daughter and my granddaughter would get up a. Few hours later because they used to wake up later. So I was always. Down there every morning for those first few hours. But it was just me and my grandson, you know, and that was the routine. And it was just, you know,

people just don't understand. It's like, because I'm the grandmother, obviously, I was literally like another mother to them both. So. Obviously it's hit me very hard and I just, I keep thinking to myself that, you know, they're going to be wondering like where we are, like where me and my daughter are, why, why they're not in their home anymore and why they've been put in a house full of strangers. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's

unbelievably cruel. And the bit that goes with it, it, it's quite clear that it's planned and it's orchestrated. This, this is not just incompetence by a few social workers because there are too many cases in a variety of different places, not only across England but in Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland as well where the same pattern applies. So it's, it's like a template operation to actually take children away.

And I have come across on many occasions this part of the story that children are taken away from the loving parent and the loving home and they are handed in into an abusive environment, the exact opposite of what you'd expect the child protection system to be doing. How did your daughter? How is your daughter coping with this at the moment? Well, she's had. Her ups and downs with it, there's been times where she's really felt like her life isn't

worth living anymore. She said to me, mum, I don't see what the point is, you know, without my children. But the only thing that's got her through is actually her faith, because we have a very faith, a strong faith. We are a Christian family. That is what's actually got her through. She keeps having faith in trusting God that justice is going to be done. She said she, you know, she knows that it has to come out eventually because, you know, everything done in the dark must

be brought to the light. You know, we strongly believe that. Yeah, absolutely. So from that first court case, how many other court hearings did you have to attend? So we had the second one is when my daughter changed solicitor because of the first solicitor. Obviously she hadn't been producing any of my daughter's evidence. We decided to find another solicitor and we did a lot of research and we found one that specialised in family law and domestic abuse and we thought

this was going to be good. So basically they took a whole month to transfer from 1 solicitor to the other, which we thought was very, you know, strange. It's like they were dragging it out on purpose because the longer time had gone on, we weren't seeing the children at all. When the solicitor then did get involved and she started receiving the legal aid, that's

when things changed. So wherever she'd had an initial conversation with us both and it sounded like she was going to be fighting for my daughter to get her children back, As soon as she started receiving the legal aid fund, she changed completely. It's like a switch had been activated inside her and she was like someone completely different. Suddenly she wasn't interested in my daughter's evidence. She said, Oh no, you know, we've

got to do what the court says. And it became very apparent that something very sinister was going on because I thought both solicitors, this is too much for coincidence. They're both doing what the court is telling them, and they're not looking at any of my daughter's evidence. What you say a lot of parents discover as they go into the family court system is that basically these the legal firms that they think are going to fight their case, fight for them

in the court. They eventually discover they're having private discussions with the social workers or even the judge. And the number of families that have said to me, we we were just shocked to discover that they were utterly betraying us through the court system. I'd presume she changed because the moment the legal aid documents have been signed, she was on the gravy train. And you know that that was that was the first thing. Is your arm OK? Because I know you're still

holding that. Do you want to rest for a bit? No, it's all right. It's OK. Yeah. Thank you. So you swap. You swap legal teams. Yeah, and then obviously again, it was very apparent that she wasn't interested. In fact, she even blamed my daughter and said that she shouldn't have fled and not told her abuser where she was going. And we were like, are you serious? So you're fleeing a dangerous abuser, but you're going to tell them where you're going.

So that again, it was very concerning, especially as they were supposed to specialised in domestic abuse. I thought that was a very strange statement to come out with. Yeah, because it's, it's an inversion of common sense, isn't it? So it. Is absolutely. Yeah, you immediately flagged that up as utterly bizarre.

I did because I thought, you know, there's lots of groups out there that claim to help, you know, mainly mothers flee in domestic abuse with their young children and they say that they're going to help them, you know, to be safe from their abuser. So if there's these type of charities that exist, then why are they saying that you can't protect your children from an abuser? You know, to me that doesn't make any sense. OK. So we'll just push this point.

So how? How many court cases in total? OK, so after that, my daughter decided that she wasn't going to have a solicitor because for obvious reasons. So she decided to represent herself. And then they had a remote hearing. And just before that remote hearing happened, we came into contact with what we were told was a private lawyer and he said that he was going to help us. He was actually able on the first remote hearing to speak and they were grilling him and

saying, you know, who are you? What are your credentials? Are you registered because they wouldn't accept first of all that he was a private lawyer. He then said he was a Mackenzie friend litigant. So then on this remote hearing, the the judge said that she had received a very interesting bundle from my daughter because me and my daughter decided to put all the evidence together and send it direct to the judge because we thought, you know, we're desperate.

We need to know the judge actually gets all of the evidence because the solicitors are not producing yet, they're not showing it to the court. So we thought we'll give the judge a fair chance to have the entire evidence before her so she can see for herself without being manipulated by anyone in the court, you know, if the truth so that she would know.

And, you know, we were trusting that she would be a fair judge and she would see that and she would realise that, you know, they've made a really bad mistake and that, you know, it needs to be rectified. So anyway, on the remote hearing she said she'd received a very interesting bundle from my daughter. She then proceeded to tell the solicitor of the social worker that she needed to tidy it up and then she said she wouldn't be available for any further

court hearings. That's a very interesting statement from the judge. Interesting choice of words. What did you understand from that exchange? Well, I understood that she could see that this was clearly a great big mess that, you know, we were showing the evidence of everything they've done that was completely unlawful. So they didn't have any grounds to stand on to take the children. And so she obviously didn't want to have anything more to do with it.

And she was telling the solicitor to tidy up, to sort it out, to try and, you know, sort the mess out basically. That's that's what I took that to me. Yeah, I would think that as well. I think that choice of words from the judge was that the solicitor was being warned off to get rid of the evidence.

Basically that's I use an expression the man on the Clapham omnibus might think that the judge had instructed the solicitor, your solicitor, to effectively get rid of the real evidence as to what was going on. Yeah, that was the solicitor of the social worker, the same one that was involved all the way through. I'm sorry, because you said your daughter was representing herself. So yeah, that was the. Well, then it then it applies even more strongly, doesn't it?

Tidy up, deal with it, get rid of the evidence. Because also what I haven't mentioned as well is that obviously when this started, you know, when they took the children, my daughter made it very clear that she wanted a new social work on the case. Because she said this social worker has been biassed to my abuser whole way through. Because she'd obviously by then read the court files, what I've

been written. And she could clearly say that the social worker was in favour of the abuser and not of her. So that was very concerning. She had demanded multiple times to the team where we live that she wanted a new social worker, to which she was told it would not be possible because the social worker had put a lot of work into this, which was very telling. Yeah, because obviously just put a lot of work into this. So yeah. Then there was another remote hearing to which it was a

different judge. And what happened was we had obviously the private lawyer that had come onto the scene, he tried to speak for us, but they said that he needed to attend court in person with his proof of identity. Just to clarify here, maybe, maybe we need a little bit of clarification. This, this person was essentially acting as an informed but unqualified legal person. So he was, he was acting as a Mackenzie friend or a, a lay legal adviser is the other term.

And I know there are a lot of very good ones out there. They're very capable. But of course, the courts don't like them because if they agree, if they're very knowledgeable at law, they don't conform to the the old boy network that operates the courts. That's the impression we got because he did seem to know the law very, very well and they had a big problem with the fact that he wasn't registered. So what they said, they agreed that he could attend court.

So this court hearing was actually adjourned and they arranged another court hearing in person at our local court in Sheffield. So on this particular day, the day before, rather this lawyer, he put 15 orders in place and these 15 orders, he said, should make the judge overturn the entire case and return the children because he was quoting law at them and he was using other cases as well to back up what he was saying and what they did on the day. Unfortunately, he wasn't able to turn up.

Yeah, he was unable to turn up. He didn't turn up. And he told us not to go in the court by ourselves. And so we stood outside the court for four hours, not sure what to do, waiting. And what they did was a different judge had been appointed to take over the rest of our entire case. Instead of looking at the 15 orders that he put in that were very, very important and they should have held a lot of standing with law, he threw all 15 of them out because he said nobody attended court.

Well, that, that was the, that was the perfect excuse for that judge. Nobody had attended the court so there's no reason for him to look at any any of the paperwork. So from then it basically spiralled because then the next two hearings that were arranged, our private lawyer did turn up, but they wouldn't allow him in. They said that he wasn't a suitable person, that he'd been given the opportunity to turn up the last time that he hadn't turned up. And now they were saying that he

was an unsuitable person. And they proceeded to lock the court door and have three security guards standing outside the court and wouldn't allow any of us in. And on both those occasions, they then had the final court hearing. And then they also tried to have me imprisoned as well on the same court hearing, the final court hearing. And why? Why? Why was that clear?

Because I had decided to stand outside the court with a megaphone, and I wanted to make the public aware of what was going on because I was so just distressed by everything that's happened to my family. I felt like I needed to campaign for justice and I needed to, you know, make the public aware of what was going on so I could somehow try and get help, you know, to get everything that had happened to us rectified.

And I felt like that was my only choice was to try and go public with it. So I discovered that Sheffield City Council had actually put in an application to have me committed to prison because clearly they didn't like, even though I hadn't mentioned the children's names, I hadn't identified them at all. I hadn't spoken even about the details of the case in, you know, detail at all. I was talking about generalisation of what was happening, you know, to mothers and fathers having their

children unlawfully stolen. They'd obviously decided they didn't like it and they wanted to have me in prison. What happened then? So the local authority tries to push a committal order through on you. Was that rejected in the court? No. So what I did was I returned the court papers and I wrote all over them that I did not consent and I did not, I was not going to participate in their legal fraud.

I said and I stated that I was a living woman, I was not under their terms and their conditions, and that I hadn't done anything at all to break the law. I said I was campaigning for justice because justice had not been done and that obviously all these crimes have been committed. And I then listed about 50 of the crimes that they committed in great detail. And once I posted that back to the court, they then withdrew the application to have me committed to prison.

Well, that's very, very interesting fear. It's, it's a common thing to, to see in these people. They're very vicious when they're taking children. But when when people do their best to fight back, you can very often see fear and. There, there is definitely fear. They fear publicity. There's no question of this.

And presumably This is why the courts are secret courts with no jury and usually no press, and why, why invariably the judges will be reinforcing to parents that they mustn't speak about what what has taken place in the courts. They fear the wider public learning about how children are taken in these Star Chamber courts. So I I think you were getting a little bit of a sense of that.

I did, yes, obviously they, they're worried about being exposed because, you know, I was calling them out on the crimes they've committed, which are very, very serious crimes, you know, to unlawfully steal a child from their, you know, their birth mother, especially for no lawful reason. Because also what I haven't mentioned is that in one of the meetings that we had the care review officer, she was supposed

to be independent. I asked her and the social worker, I said, what is the danger of my daughter being around her children? And there was just this deadly silence. They could not answer me. They would not give me an answer. And instead, the care review officer then proceeded to say, well, we're in care proceedings now, so you just need to get yourself a good legal team. That was it. Didn't give any reason. Two questions. How long did the the court proceedings last?

Well, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to think about the time period from the time of the first hearing through to the last one. What? What sort of period of time was that? After they took the children in February, the last court hearing they had was in September. Right. And and So what was that final judgement, Claire? The final judgement is that they refused to look at any of my daughter's evidence. We don't know what evidence the judge was even shown. We don't know if they destroyed any of it.

We don't know what they gave him. But his ultimate decision was that the children would stay with my daughter's ex abuser and being cared for by his new girlfriend who's also a victim. She's disclosed that to my daughter two years ago and she's going to be raising her own two children and my daughter's two children. And my daughter is only allowed to see her children if she attends a particular place which she didn't deem A suitable

place. And she has to call my daughter by a different name because they have renamed my daughter my granddaughter, sorry. Which is incredibly psychologically damaging as well on top of everything else. And also obviously she's meant to be supervised by her ex abusers mum and sister. You mean inside a contact centre? No, not in a contact centre. They've said it has to be held at a Party Man World Place.

So a Party Man World is a place where they have lots of very, very loud music and they have like a children's play centre. Under these units operated by child protection or. No, it's literally like a social place where you can take your children to run around and jump on equipment and you know, like they have like a ballpark there as well.

So in to be, you know, honest, it's not really a suitable place where you can have intimate time with your children that you've not seen for how long to actually have, you know, proper conversations and spend quality time. It's a very, very noisy environment with lots of children running around all over the place. Yeah. And I would say that that's the reason they choose it as an environment, because it's not an environment that you can help restore the bond with your own

children. No. That environment is just is chosen because it is disruptive and loud and you can't have a proper conversation and the children are distracted. But but your daughter would have to be there with your partners. Sorry with with a abusive partners female partner and her mother. Mother and sister, yeah. Which again, they didn't have any contact with the children when we were living at our old place anyway. They were strangers to the

children too. And now suddenly they've been put in these roles where they have complete control over my daughter. And they say that if they don't like the conversation or if she doesn't call her daughter by their by her new name, they will terminate straight away the contact. So it feels almost like being put in a bullying, intimidating situation where you're being coerced again to do what they're saying under those terms and conditions. And that's the only way she can

see her children. And, and Claire, I have to admit here that I I haven't heard of this before, where the the control is put in in the hands of other other inverted commas family members. I'm used to hearing the, the parents or the mum or the dad was able to see the child within a very cold, austere contact centre. And there was always one or more social services, usually women present during the hour or the two hours that they were actually given to see their own children.

So I, I haven't heard of this before, but it's, again, it's got this to me. It's got this very sadistic psychological twist in it because to, to be in the company of your own children when they are controlled by what are effectively strangers and you're going to have to call your child by a completely different name. This is, this is very dark stuff. I don't know how else to describe it. I'm calling it dark. It's sinister, it's sadistic, it's depraved.

And the other thing that I haven't mentioned as well is that prior to the final court hearing, we were actually seeing the children in a contact centre that was arranged by the social services while the court hearings were still in progression. But they would keep it very minimalistic. So on some weeks we would see the children and other weeks they'd leave it two weeks or three weeks now on every occasion, which is what

obviously I didn't mention. So initially going back to when they were first stolen, they left it a whole month and when we saw the children after a month of being out of our care, they were covered in bruises and scratches and injury marks. They were in very poor health, bearing in mind beforehand they'd never been sick, never been ill. They used to get like the odd runny nose and they'd be better within like a day because obviously I'm very like

holistic. I've always brought my children and my family up very, you know, healthily using all like natural remedies and things, which again, social services don't appear to like that way of life. So it was very, very disturbing to see my grandchildren that state. And we were horrified. We reported it all. It's all been logged in the contacts report books. When we then saw them again the following week, they had more new scratches, more bruises. They had bite marks.

Over the progression of seeing them, they started to have missing parts of their teeth. My grandson had. All. Patches on his hair and my daughter was really upset and she said like, he's always had really thick curly hair, like what's happened to his hair. And they tried to just brush it off and said, oh, you know, we don't know, but it's not a concern. Apparently the health minister has seen it and she's aware of it and they're not concerned. So they wouldn't tell us how it

could possibly have occurred. And it happened about three times, different bald patches on his hair. They wouldn't tell us how it happened. He also turned up on one occasion with two slightly black eyes that were just forming, you know, not where they're completely black, but where they're just starting to go black. Obviously all of this has been

photographed. As soon as they realised that we had over 100 photographs of their injuries and the bite Marks and the scratches and all the bruises and their poor health, they immediately told us that we could not take any more photos. They said it is psychologically, emotionally damaging to the children to take photos of the injuries. Yeah, and again, this is turning common sense on its head. And certainly there's no compassion being shown by these people in doing what they're

doing. It's truly wicked. You know, what words can you use to describe this sort of thing? How long is it now since you and your daughter of well, how long is it now since the children were taken away? It was February last year, so it's been nearly 11 months. And how long is it since you've actually been able to see the children? We haven't seen them now for nearly four months. And is there talk of you being able to see them again, or is it just gone into a black hole?

Well, we've, we've been sending lots of emails to the social team in Essex and the social team where we live in Sheffield, and they all keep saying the same thing, that decisions were made by the judge in the court in Sheffield and they're the only ones that can overrule and that they're not willing to get

involved. We got the utterly bizarre situation here where child protection has have taken children from a perfectly loving environment, They pass them into a potentially abusive environment, but that environment turns out to be abusive in fact. And you are recording the evidence. And then when the abuse of children within the wider care system is pointed out, they simply say, well, it's not our, it's not our responsibility. The judge made the decision.

It, it, it's, it's, well, I'm stuttering because, you know, how do you choose the words to describe this? I just hope that the I'm sure they will, the audience listening to this, they're reeling in shock because of course, this sort of thing hasn't just happened to you and your family. It's happening to hundreds, thousands of other families with children taken across the country. Claire, what what about other steps? You, what you obviously fought as hard as you could through the courts.

You, you tried using legal teams. Your daughter tried to represent herself. You use some lay legal help. What else have you done in order to try and get this decision overturned or to get help for the family? Who who have you been able to speak to? I've been emailing the CEO of the chief executive of Sheffield and we've had a lot of back and forth emails but again, they're finally washing their hands and saying again if I have issues and that I don't agree with the

decisions. Made in the court. That I need to go back to the court in Sheffield. That's what they're saying is my only option and that's what everyone is saying. Whoever I contact, they're all saying they can't get involved. I've contacted MPs all over the place, they've all said they cannot get. Involved. With the Family Court decision.

Right. And and yet you are, you know, if you were just saying this to me with the children that got bruises and scratches and other physical injuries that you can't explain, that would be your claim.

But you are saying to me, not only have we seen it, we've taken photographs of it. And so presumably you shared those photographs with, for example, the chief executive of Sheffield City Council. We first initially showed them to the social worker and the care review officer and we were very shocked by their response because we were expecting them to be horrified by the change in the children's appearance.

Because I've had other people say to me they look like completely different children before and after. When they initially looked at the first set of photos, which was before they were taken, they were saying in a very sinister voice, oh, how beautiful the children looked. They, they look so beautiful. They look so beautiful. You know, it was a bit creepy the way they were saying it.

And then obviously when they moved to the second lot of photos where you could visibly see how bad their injuries and their scratch Marks and bruising and just the whole deterioration of the health, you know, you could see big. Black Lions under their. Eyes and their faces were very pale and they just looked really, you know, distraught and upset and not healthy and not happy, the care review officers said. Aren't they coming along?

Well. Yeah. Again, this is this is unbelievably cold and well, it's sinister and it's perverse because what what you're suggesting, and I completely agree with you, is that these people are mocking, are mocking the condition of the children they're deriving pleasure out of. Yes, they actually agree with you because they know what you're saying is true for them. They're mocking as they respond

in this way. If, if I say to you, Claire, that many of the the mums and dads that I've talked to over a very long period of time now, because I think it's approaching 15 years, that parents say they found the behaviour of the child protection teams, but it could also include the legal teams as well. It might also include the judge. They found their behaviour so sinister and bizarre that they said it. It's almost as if you were dealing with a cult. What?

What would your reaction be to that description? I would say I can totally relate. There is a huge darkness. Even just entering the whole Family Court place, you feel this really dark feeling. It's very, very dark place. And the people that we encountered, they seemed very, very dark. Even in the eyes, you know, the eyes were very black and they just seemed very emotionless and very. Cold. Like almost robotic.

Yes. And I've, I've witnessed, I've witnessed this myself in family court cases. And one particular case I never forgotten because the lady pointed out that as far as she could see all each woman in the in the case. So that was the sort of Kafkaas woman on the social services team. All the thing, we're all all wearing black nail Polish. Now, I know some women do wear black nail Polish, but they were all wearing black nail Polish and it was a very strange little

thing. Does it mean something? Possibly not. But to the family or to the to the lady who's present anyway, it, it seemed to be very strange. Yeah. You've got an audience at the moment. What, what would you like to say to the to the people who are watching this, whether they're in UK or they're overseas, it will be both. What would you like to say to

them? Well, I just like to say that, you know, I really think that the public needs to be made more aware that this is actually happening because I've had people turn around to me and say, you know, they don't just take children for no reason. Now, my case, my daughter's case is a clear example of how they do. They literally come into a good loving home and they take children for absolutely no lawful reason whatsoever.

And I think that should be really worrying to everybody because it could happen to their children too. You know, like the more cases I hear about, I've come across quite a few on my Facebook. And, you know, I get really, really upset because, you know, it's unbearable to just think about these children and babies being ripped away from their loving families, you know? And, and you think, you know, you're going about your daily life happy and peaceably.

And you don't expect someone is suddenly going to come into your life like that and just rip your family apart because you know, the damage is absolutely horrific. But it does, you know, it's absolutely life changing. And the children, you know, it's the children. 'S lives, you know. They're they're going to suffer for the rest of their life. You know, this type of can only be described as trauma. You know, it is barbaric, is

absolutely barbaric. And anyone that can do that to a family, you know, I think people need to be talking about it and they need to not be scared to come forward because, you know, they really want mums and dads to be too scared to speak up

about what they're doing. I think This is why they're getting away with it because they're expecting that, you know, they'll send you a letter or a court letter telling you that if you're not quiet about it or if you talk about it, you're going to go to prison to naturally, you know, mums and dads are going to be too scared to talk about what's happened to them because of repercussions. And I think This is why they're being allowed to continue doing what they're doing.

And it's like a bullying racket. You know, they're they're stealing your children. They're telling you if you tell anybody we're going to put you in prison. You know, it's horrific, absolutely horrific. And let let's add another factor and and last few days actually, the Daily Mail printed a story in which it was pointing out that the moment a child goes through a family court case, so the child, if you like, is entering the so called child protection system. About 280,000 lbs has been

spent. You know, that's setting up the whole thing, all the experts, the court. And I'm not sure the exact figure of the number of children that are in care at the moment. It's about 70,000. It increased dramatically during lockdown. It may be as high as 75,000. But if you, if the audience care to get a calculator and multiply 280,000 by 75,000, you will find that you're into a multi billion pound child industry before anything else has happened to the children.

Long term care where individuals might be paid several 1000 lbs a week to care for a child that's got special and difficult learning difficulties, for example. So, so huge, huge amounts of money. And to be fair to the Daily Mail, to, to the particular journalist that that wrote this story, they pointed out that overwhelmingly the, the children's homes and the so called care centres are all now operated by private companies.

And they are boasting at the profits they're making and saying it's a good, you know, it's a good industry to get into. So you've got the callousness of the system itself where they're effectively taking children away from parents, but very often and the children are not directly being fostered by another family, they're being fostered by a family who are consuming vast amounts of money per week to do that. So it's it's an industry.

And I also, I totally agree with you that the, the agenda is to keep parents frightened and suppressed and stop them or try and stop them from speaking out. And I want to say that I've been trying for a lot of years to report on these cases. And we have, we have done pretty successfully for some of them. But at the end of the day, it's the number of parents who will have the courage to stand up and speak out that makes the

difference. Because if somebody in the general public or even a viewer of this video says, oh, well, no, this is just not possible. They mum and grandma must have done something. And you say that's absolutely untrue. And, and I absolutely believe you if if yours is the only case, it doesn't hold much

weight. But if we had 1020 a hundred 200 families coming forward telling effectively the same story about what what happened, it is their personal testimony that that is the evidence that the British state, the UK government is stealing children and. I'd like to mention as well that, you know, I come from a very big family.

I'm actually the eldest of seven and my mum and dad and my siblings have all been incredibly shocked by this whole, you know, this whole case because they've basically been cut out of my grandchildren's lives as well. You know, there's nothing been put in place for them to see them and they just can't get their heads around it because they know my family so well. And my friends, they know my family so well. They, you know, they're totally

in shock. It's opened their eyes up because they never, ever thought this would happen to our family. I mean, me personally, I used to actually volunteer in two schools in Essex and I do my regular safeguarding as well. So, you know, this should not have happened to our family. Like none of us have a criminal record, never had any drug problems or alcohol problems. You know, the fact that there is no issues whatsoever, that's the very concerning thing.

Because I understand that in some families sometimes it's because they've had like say drug issues or alcohol problems or something like that. Literally, in our case, there has been nothing whatsoever. And that's what makes it even more concerning because it means it could happen to anybody. It can happen to me and my family.

It can happen to anyone. And the, the other thing I'll add to that is that this used seemingly this used to happen to people who would be vulnerable in some way so that they could have drug issues or they could basically be poor, or they could living on benefits and having a tough life, or they might have some learning difficulties. And it was poorer, weaker people who were clearly targeted for their children.

We've also seen that the targeting is a switch to immigrants and particularly people where English isn't their first language. So mothers in particular that don't have very good English, their children have been targeted. I was being pretty well informed of some stuff going on in the Sheffield area probably a couple of years ago where Romani communities were being targeted

for their children. So, so we've got people who are vulnerable by virtue of the fact they're poor or got learning difficulties or they're migrants and they haven't got a very good knowledge of the country they've all targeted. But also in more recent years we've seen social services trying to snatch the children from professional people.

And in a couple of occasions they've even, it's like their, their confidence is increasing and they've gone for the children of, of people, legally qualified solicitors and barristers. And so you get the impression that that the confidence in these people and their criminal activities is increasing. So I totally agree with you.

The message to the public listening to your story and what it really means is you need to wake up very quickly because this is demonstrating it doesn't matter who you are, your children are not safe if social services decide to come for them. And if you're thinking, well, I haven't done anything wrong so they won't come for me.

This is absolutely untrue. They target children for all sorts of reasons, including the fact they're particularly attractive children with blonde hair and blue eyes, or even that they're twins. Both my children, yeah, had very striking features and were very, you know, healthy looking. So it is, you know, especially the fact that they've both been mocked up for possible adoption. So you know, that to us was very kind of shocking and eye opening.

Claire one, one of the things that always interests me around these cases is, is the reaction from from the press. Have you, have you tried to get papers to cover the story? Or other journalists? BBC. Yeah, I've literally reached out to every single media outlet that I think called, and even the independent ones that I was given names of. I've sent emails, every single one. And I've been absolutely shocked to have no response from any of them whatsoever.

And given how serious you know what's happened to us is, I thought that at least one of them would be covering. What's happened? Yeah. There seems to be like some type of restriction that they're not allowed to report it or they don't want to get involved, whichever the the reason. All those things.

And I think there's also a fear factor with the some of the mainstream journalists, they're actually too frightened to get involved and they know something really bad is going on, but they're too frightened to get involved and or the newspaper itself. And the editorial team is warned off by the the judge. Ultimately, Claire, I think we've probably come to a natural end for this. I hope that you will you will do some more work with me.

I'm going to put it that way. But I, I think for our viewers today, they're going to be pretty shocked at what you've described. And I know from the comments that come back into the column when we do these sorts of interviews that many people find just sitting and listening to, to the sorts of things you were talking about very distressing.

So there, there are a lot of good people out there in this country and hearing the reality of what's taking place in the family courts does make an impact on them. But we need those people to also stand up and be counted. And this is how we're going to do it. Let me just end by saying you've conducted, you've conducted the whole of this interview holding your phone. So that must have been very hard, but well done because I don't know how you've managed to keep it so stable.

I think my hand would have been wobbling all over the place. So well done for that and well done for having the courage to speak to us. Thank you. Yeah, I just want people to know the truth because obviously, you know, I don't see how else we're going to get this problem sorted out without making it known to the public what's going on. You know, it's the only way that this type of evil gets stopped. Why people talking about it and exposing it? Yeah, absolutely. OK.

Let's end it there. But we will do. We will certainly do a Part 2. So thank you very much. Thank you very much.