Well, thank you, Neil, for joining me today. My, my guest today is Neil Oliver, who's currently a broadcaster for GB News and yourself, obviously your own stuff. And I'm really, really delighted to have you today on UK column and, and just, it's just really good that you've you've you've agreed to speak to us. So. Yeah, my pleasure. Lots of wonderful questions for you.
SO tell me I, I just wondered, you know, you, you've obviously done a lot of history stuff and you know, I've been looking at all, I mean, I used to be a great fan of coast. You know, that wonderful news that you did. And you know, you're obviously really embedded in in history and you love the history of of England and Scotland and the whole of the UK, the British Isles. So tell me what, what, when did you sort of make that transition
to doing what you're doing now? I mean, what, when, when was that big wake up call? What happened? Oh my goodness, Harry, thanks for, thank you for making time for me. I'm, I'm always one of the great pleasures of the last few years has been the number of different, the number of different people and organisations that, that, that I, I get to talk to. So I'm always enthused by the prospect of another conversation, especially when I'm not quite sure you know what
that conversation will bring. So it's lovely to be with you. And that one question you've asked there could, if you wanted me to, I could talk for the next two hours about that alone. Go. Ahead. But no, I as you say, I mean I stumbled into television in the 1st place right by accident really. I didn't mean I didn't. It was never my ambition. I studied archaeology. I worked in journalism various, I did various jobs over the years.
And then I happened to be, I was involved with a project setting up an excavation of a battlefield in South Africa that I didn't sort of like downtime, you know, got time off work and stuff. And I went and did this thing. And that was in 19981999 and, and for a few years and it came to the attention of a, of a, of TV. And Long story short, I stumbled into television at that point and start, I started, I made a television series called Two Men
in a Trench about archaeology. And then I got Coast and, and so, and then everything else that that followed thereafter. So that had been accidental anyway.
And I did it for, I don't know, it must have been more than 15 years or maybe a bit less than 20 years, all sorts of projects about archaeology and history and landscape and sacred Britain and so on and so on. And then like like everybody else really, I got then the 2020 happened, you know, lockdown happened, you know, everything shot that at that point, I had really been making most of my living from touring around
theatres. I was doing a live show and all the obviously all the theatres closed and I was like washed up. But what you know how I'm self-employed. I can't work at the what am I going to do? Because I didn't have any money. I didn't have any, you know, so I was, I was anxious about what exactly was going to happen. And I started, I got an opportunity to speak. I honestly don't remember how, but Mike Graham at the time, it was talk radio, which was a, you know, you know, well, exactly
what it sounds like. I talk radio station and he approached me. I don't maybe I had, I must have written something, maybe in what I had a column in The Sunday Times. I used to put some opinion in there. Mike got in touch with me, invited me on as a regular guest. I used to, I used to talk to Mike every Wednesday morning, 11 O clock or something with a regular slot together where we would chew the fat of the day for 20 minutes or so.
And then at the at the time and in the background, as it turned out, GB News was a fledgling. Well, it was, it hadn't even launched. It was just an idea. And the team that were that were building GB News approached me because they had, and it was really because they had heard me being opinionated on Mike Graham's talk radio show.
And I got, I got invited to be one of the original line up of, of hosts, presenters, whatever on GB News back in the June of 2021. And from that point on, really it, it certainly intensified a kind of a controversial nature to what I was seeing. I suppose because I was speaking out about being anti lockdown, anti jab. I was anti everything. I had questions to ask about, about what we were being told about the war in Ukraine and
everything else. I mean, along the way over the years, I had picked up some of us have a reputation for controversy. I spoke out in 20. Oh God, when was it 2014? At the time of the the referendum on whether or not Scotland would break away from the United Kingdom. And I was invited to give my opinion about that in a sun in a, a Sunday paper, I think a broadsheet. And I said I prefer, I thought
that I I didn't like the idea. I would prefer to stay in the United Kingdom. And that made me. Flack for that, didn't you? I did. That was really, that was really because at that time I was still very much a sort of a, you know, I was sort of low level establishment fixture at that point. You know, I was most of my telly was on the BBC. It was very gentle stuff. You know, you talked about course, which was a lovely project, but it was certainly
was never controversial. I was associated with kind of a quite a light, you know, on screen personality. I suppose. I had a column in The Sunday Times. I was, I was an advocate or a, a spokesperson for various charities because that tends to happen to you when you've got, when you reach a certain point on telepresenting, various organisations ask you to be a, you know, a known face that they can attach things to. So I was a, you know, I was a little small, small scale
fixture. And then 2014 in the Scottish referendum sort of threw me into a controversial position because I was suddenly, you know, I was, I was annoying people that wanted Scottish independence and that that level of, of being a controversial figure persisted then. And of course, by the time we got to the events of 2019-2020, and I said what I said and I have continued to see it ever since. And by now, you know, I don't have anything to do with, I've been dropped by everybody.
You know, I don't have my column. I don't have my agent. I had ATV agent in those days. I represent. I was, I was, I had been the president of the National Trust for Scotland. I was, I was, I was a, a fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh and all of these things I ended up on the outside
of by now. So I'm, I'm now just I'm, I'm, I am where I am. So you know, how, how do you keep up your, your spirit strong in the, in the face of censorship and isolation and, and the corruption that's around you? How do you keep your spirits up? Well, I don't really think about it in those terms. I suppose I've always I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm married. My wife is truly, we've been together a very long time. We've known each other since we
were teenagers. She's always been completely on the same page as me. We agree about all these things happily. Fortunately, I suppose my kids back our position as well. You know, they're, you know, they're growing up now. You know that my eldest is in her early 20s and my youngest is 17 and you know, they're old enough to make their own, to have their own opinions about significant matters. They're all on board That because I have their approval, I suppose is a big thing.
You know, I'm not doing this on my own. You know, when I say thing and where I say something on voice and opinion and the brick bats come, which they do. I, I'm in a, I'm in an environment where I'm backed up and supported by my, by my nearest and dearest. And I think, I think what I'm saying is, is true, even more fundamental. I, I, I have conviction about what I'm saying. And to be quite honest with you, I'm, I'm certain I'm right, not, not, not on all the details.
And I get, you know, I'm, I'm sure I make mistakes and get dates wrong and you know, and conflate certain things, but fundamentally down. But it counts. I think, I think it resonates with a lot of people as well because what I'm saying is, is just true.
Yeah, and, and I mean you, you've, you when you, when you, when you were presenting your monologues, you know, on GB News, people absolutely resonated with you because you come from a very human story and you touch, I don't know, there's something about you that you relate to the individual somehow on some, on some level. And I think, I think that's part of your, your amazing success is that you, you relate to people on a very, very normal human level.
And, and that that's what people love. Well. I come from a very I come from a, from a background that, you know, a very large chunk of population can can identify with. You know, I'm from a, from an, I was, I grew up in a, an ordinary working class family, a loving family, you know, lovely mum and dad with two Big Sisters. I went to state school.
You know, I, I, I was the only person in my family that went to uni and, you know, and, and you know, and that was, you know, my mum and dad were delighted about that. And, you know, I come from that kind of background. I've always worked. I've always really, I've mostly been self-employed. I mean, for most of my 20s and 30s and 40s, I was just self-employed really. And that's A and what I I live in Sterling.
I live in an, an ordinary Scottish town, a bump into regular folk all the time, going to the, going to the shops, buying food, dropping the kids off at school. There's nothing remarkable about my circumstances, no. You just, you're just. Yeah, you. And so I'm liable to articulate what, yeah, a, a not a majority, but I, I, it's a good big chunk of people out there that, that come from my background have more or less my experience of life and they want to hear the things I'm saying said.
I'm not, I'm not, I'm not seeing anything. That's, you know, I'm not reinventing the wheel. I'm just seeing and people, it resonates with people because they think, yeah, that's that's what I think. Yeah, now you've worked both inside and out of the media machine. How in your experience, are you seeing narratives being shaped right now and what it was before, say, COVID-19 or although before you began to see
what was really going on? I was absolutely as as asleep, as gold, as gullible, as trusting as as the next mug. I was never part of it was, I was, I mean, I, I trained as a journalist for a few years and I worked in local papers for a few years. But but my heart was, I was never really. Yeah, it wasn't my, I did it for a while and then I, I moved on, as I say. I spent, you know, a couple of decades doing television. My focus was always things like history, archaeology, even sort
of esoterica, I suppose. I mean, I was always interested in stuff that was a bit, you know, off the wall and, you know, a bit niche maybe. I didn't really pay a lot of attention to politics for the, for I thought the state was or wasn't up to. I just took it for granted. I just, I knew that whatever, you know, the authorities were out there, the government, the, the, the police, the judiciary, the, the council, the civil service, I didn't really think
about it very much. I was just, I was just in a, a state of slumber. I suppose, assuming that they were just out there, probably whatever the, whatever the ideology was, they were, they probably had my best interests at heart. And I think I was in that mindset of just, you know, too distracted by what I was doing over here to, to, to spend too much time wondering about what the Labour Party were doing or what the Tories were up to or
whatever. And I think a lot of people, we were all, I think many, many more of us were like that then. But like so many other people, because of the, the, I mean, the Internet has been around for a long time. I'm actually quite a, I'm actually quite a student of the, the, the, the development of the Internet. I mean, I know quite a lot about where it came from.
I worked on one of the very early websites in the UK and I've always been very interested in it and I'm I'm possibly more aware than some, maybe more aware than most of where the Internet came from. And then how it came into a flowering really in the 90s. It it went mainstream in the 90s and it changed everything. It simultaneously obviously allowed the technocrats to begin the process of harvesting all the data about us so that they know more about us than we know
about ourselves. But the flip side of the same coin was that we hadn't accessed an enormous amount of information, and we were also connected to like minds in a way that had never been possible before. You could, if you had an opinion about something, you could quickly find a chat room or a, or a, or an assembly of people that, oh, they think they're wondering about that as well.
And it was incredibly fertile. And so when you, in answer to your question, the, when I was in the media, you know, when I worked in local papers in the 90s and then when I worked in, you know, terrestrial television in the, in the 2000s and, and the 20 teens and so on, the, the, the authorities had control of the narrative because they controlled all the media, few newspapers, a few TV channels and that was it.
And it was able to keep that pretty much tamped down so that they, they knew what was it. Then the Internet came into its full flowering, which is where we are now. And it changed, it gave people access to alternative narratives And that has changed everything. It changed everything for me and it's changed everything for many people. And now, now we have obviously the emergence of AI, which is,
you know, another massive step. How do you how do you feel about the the the March of AI at the moment? Well, I'm not really. I'm not worried about it. This is my point. I'm not good at quick answers, but there's a quick answer for you. Yeah, I don't. I mean, it's, to me, artificial intelligence is fast and it's able very quickly to, to read everything that's ever been written and distill out in a in nanoseconds. It does that, absolutely.
But it's, it's dependent upon the millennia of the creativity of human beings. You know, it's, you know, we live inside the body of a whale. There's been plenty to eat, but only because there was a whale. It it's, it's cannibalizing everything, but it's only fast. It's not conscious. It's not like us. It it's not human consciousness. I don't think I, I don't it'll never whatever it becomes, it'll never be us. It won't be the same as us. And I'm not, I'm not worried about it.
I mean, I, I've said before that, you know, I, I was 6 or 7 when my dad came home one night with a calculator and showed us this thing that could we were shouting arithmetical questions and my dad was showing us how fast it came up with the answer. I realized as a six year old that I had been overtaken by a thing that my dad could hold in his hand when it came to arithmetic. You know, in the advent of
computers. I mean, I've accepted that they can do what they do infinitely faster than me or or anybody else. But I I no more feel threatened personally by AI than I feel threatened by a crane that can lift a tent on block. I can't move. OK, so I mean, how do you, how do you, I mean, you often speak of what it's like to be human and what do you think's at stake with, with the, you know, the continuing to be human when you've got AI and genetic engineering and and digital
surveillance convergence? I mean, do do you feel that is a threat to humanity itself because of transhuman, you know, the, the, the, the merging of the man and machine to towards transhumanism because we know this is all happening. So do you feel that that could be a threat to humanity, to the human condition at least? Yeah. It's, it's an alternative. We, we don't have anything. I, you, you can feel it if you choose to. I, I don't, I'm not, I'm not interested in competing with it.
I, I'm interested in what humans are and what humans are capable of. I'm interested in the, you know, you know, we're, we're carbon. You know, the artificial intelligence is silica. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a different thing. And I honestly, I don't think we've even begun to exploit the true potential of human consciousness, but human potential full stop. I don't think we're, I think we're just across the threshold
of, of all of that potential. And we've been exploiting technology for a very long time to enable us better to do the things that we want to do without sacrificing our humanity. I don't think, I don't feel, I suppose there might be, maybe there are people out there who want to bond with machines. Maybe they want to bond in that transhumanism way that you're talking about. Maybe they want to become a hybrid between the human and and the technological. I personally don't.
So do you think it it will be a choice or do you think it will be not a choice to do so the way that digital Idi mean? We know that digital ID is coming. Well, it's all the infrastructure is already there, isn't it? So yeah, I mean that that is worrying. I don't think digital ID will work. No, I've got I Really.
Don't. I mean, I think, you know, I think the, the announcement of it, I think lots of people are very suspicious about it and I just don't, I'm not I, I used to worry about digital ID before Keir Starmer announced it was coming. And somehow or other instantly I wasn't worried about it anymore. It was a bit like, you know, waiting for the punch and then, you know, the blow comes and you think, oh, well, you know, I can live with that. And it's not so bad. It's not the end of the world.
And I, I, I refuse to, I refuse to accept the inevitability of, of digital feudalism. I know it's, it's the, I know the intention is out there, but I, I believe it will fail. I wouldn't, I wouldn't put a time on it. I mean, people quite often come at me and say you want me to. You must get it as well to some extent. I mean, if you, if you offer an opinion about something, people quite often will immediately respond with, yes, yes, I understand that. But what am I supposed to do?
I don't know. That's up to you. You know, what what you want to do is is up to you. I'm not really in the I'm not really in the advice business. You know, I've voiced my opinion about things, but I'm not, I'm not, I'm not entitled to tell other people what they should think and what, how they should respond. I'm just, I just run off at the mouth about what I think, but I, I don't, I believe that whether it, whether it lasts, whether it takes years or whatever time frame, it will fail.
And I believe that there will be a point in the future where historians will look back on this phase that we're going through at the moment with, you know, with the, you know, they'll raise their hands in astonishment about what was contemplated and, and what people were invited to fear and to and to believe that they would be controlled by. I don't believe it will work, no. I I, I kind of get what you're saying because I mean, it was, it was, it was kind of quite good.
Was it last week? It was a bit, the days go so quickly when everything went down, you know, that Amazon went down and I, I know Amazon, yeah, Zoom or anything. And a, a lot of the, the supermarkets, you know, had to revert cash and it was almost like, Oh my goodness, this is, we need more of this. This is, this is fantastic. This is where you can see how all of this could breakdown in a in a heartbeat. I mean.
Everyone, I mean, that's, that's another, that's another aspect of it. People are so familiar now with the hackability of technology. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, we know that a, a platform or whatever is no sooner goes live than the hackers hack it. Yeah. There's a, there's a technological arms race running at all times and everything gets hacked. You know there's data breaches. Yeah, somewhere every more of it's happening all the time. The the Amazon Web Services failure.
I'd I mean, I I don't even know. Did anyone say what happened to it? I don't know. They just I. Don't know. I don't know. Did they? Just switch it off and switch it on again I mean I I don't know or was it a hack? I don't know, but we we know about people are people know that if all their eggs are put in one basket, that it's inviting techno disaster. Yeah. If, if they ever got their digital IDCBDC 24 hour surveillance digital cage up and running, it would be leaking like a sieve.
Yeah. Within nanoseconds of it going live, yeah. People's data, you know, would be being ripped out and hacked and and sold off and traded and instantly, well, it's such a it's such a disaster. If they got it up and running, it would be so disastrous that it would fall under the weight of its own hubris. And, and also the reliance on all this data has to be stored somewhere. And they're trying to put up these data centres all over the UK.
And these data centres, I mean, there was a wonderful a protest about it on Saturday in, in Liverpool where the, you know, that the people are really wising up to, to the fact that these data centres have to be built to support the digital ID and everything else in the health data and all the stuff that they're, they're, they're harvesting from from us, the human beings. And in fact, if they can't build these data centres quick enough, it's not going to happen, even if. They can't.
We've been. We've been. We have less and less access to meaningful energy in this country. Yeah. Exactly. You know, it's all, it's all the nonsense of, of Agenda 2030 and all the, you know, all Ed Miliband's wet dreams of whatever and the we know it's common knowledge. I hear people say all the time an AI search takes 8 times as much energy as a, as a convention, you know, the kind of Google searches that we were all so familiar with doing. It's all sucking on energy.
Yeah. And, and all these data, all these, all these, all these data centres, all these server farms upon which all of this data sits and has to be serviced around the clock with, with diesel generators on takeover all the time. Because you know, if, if an electricity supply were to switch up, so they need to have backup all the time. Yes, it's it's the cut. It's going to collapse under its own weight.
Yeah, yeah. And, and do you think the global elite or I don't like calling them the elite? Do you think they've overplayed their hand in some ways? Oh, yeah. And they're not winning this this, this narrative. We can, definitely. There's too many people watching this like some kind of awful soap opera. It's not happening like that. That period of slumber that I, that I spoke about a few minutes ago, no longer prevails for too many people. People are watching it. Yeah.
You know, something like whatever, you know, you. JFK was shot dead in Dallas in 63. And it's only really been quite recently that it's become acceptable to say what really, you know, that he was definitely not shot by a lone gunman. That was a lifetime of, of the I mean, the very idea of suggesting that that conspiracy had been behind what had happened to JFK was, you know,
was, was an athlete. You you're called a crank for doing it. And that, that prevailed as soon as something happens now seconds later on social media, whatever people don't allow you see what's happened there. Yeah, Look at the Charlie Kirk event, which I'm only prepared to call an event. I have no idea in truth, what happened that day. I, I wouldn't even I wouldn't be confident in saying what what took place in that university campus in that moment. But I don't know what happened
there at all. And that has been being pulled apart since the, you know, well, the, well, the echo of the, of the, of the gunshot, you know, we're still reverberating off the structures. We're living. It's. Too, there's too many people, too many people paying too much attention. And and so the so the, the soap, yeah, the elite. I mean, just use the word. It doesn't really matter. It's just shorthanded. We know who we're talking about.
They have overplayed everything. I I think they over, I think they went for it in 2016. But Trudy said to me at the time, or she she said not long after she said, you know, the, the, the Brexit vote. And I'm not, I'm not even offering an opinion on whoever thought that was a good idea or a bad idea. The Brexit vote and the Trump election in 2016. Again, I'm not taking a stance on, you know, whatever that's what happened.
Brexit vote. Trump truly says everything that's happened since has been a punishment beating because those two events were not supposed to happen, you know? Yeah. And in, in that, in that moment, the, the, the elites panicked, yes, because, you know, because the, you know, the, the, the prisoners in the, in the, in the, in the camp, you know, escaped for a minute and did something they weren't supposed to do.
And all the effort then was to get them, get them back in the, get them back in the compound, get them back inside, get them shut down. I think also the, we know that we know that the, the, the, the financial cycle lasts about a century and then it, it falls under its own corruption really. And we're at the end of a, we're at the end of a financial cycle that's been running since whatever early part of the 20th
century, probably. And it's, it's falling apart and that the elites have to reset it to, you know, sort of perpetuate the status quo that they enjoy. And I think, I think something, if you're asking me, I think something happened around 2019, 2018-2019. It was some sort of something existential emerged that threatened their plans, and they had to. What they did with the with the fake pandemic was a desperate attempt to buy themselves time it. Was it was they needed to.
They needed they needed to switch off the economy. Get get, get. Let's just take a pause here, they thought. And so we were all locked down and, you know, panic, panic, panic scammed emic and then that, you know, and then the horror show for it pushed into a billion people's arms and all of the rest of it was a is a was a desperate attempt by that, by the, you know, by the elites to
buy themselves some time. And I I genuinely think that what looks so it has looked so unusually chaotic since about 2020. It's been frantic as never before. I mean, most of us look around at the world at the moment we go. What on earth is going on? The world has finally gone mad. Well, that's it has because there's a desperate attempt going on to maintain or regain control and they don't have it.
And in the in the, in all the ongoing desperation to try and get the reset and to get things the way they want. We can see them. You know, the mask is dropped and we've we've seen them scuttling about you. So how? What do you see? What do you think the future looks like? I mean, if you've got so you've got these global elites panicking to, to, to, to, you know, to, to keep that control and keep it all in, in, you know, under, under their, under
their jurisdiction. And and yet you've got a, an increasingly, you know, awakening, you know, world who are pushing back against that. How do you see, you know, what is what does freedom look like in the 21st century when you've got all of that going on? What? How do? How does that look like do you think? I generally, I mean, I come and go on this, but most of the time I, I think we're not dealing
with one coordinated group. The analogy I'm much more comfortable with most of the time is of competing crime families. You know, I think there are various, the world is criminal and corrupt. We, we live in a corrupt and criminal world. Unlawful. The whole things are financial
fraud. It's it's, you know, the, the, the currencies are, are Ponzi schemes and all of the rest of it. And I think that are there are multiple syndicates that that sometimes basically they're, they're on the same page because they want to keep us where they've got us and they want to continue to exploit the potential of, of control. But I think there's degrees of disagreement and and competition between different crime
syndicates. It's like a godfather, you know, it's like, it's not just there's not just one top table that's got total control. I don't think so, no. I. Think you're right. I think that there, there is a sort of, you know, you, you've got, you've got your technocrats and you've got your, your globalists and you've got various other almost mafia like controllers and they're, they're all vying for, for, for control. So it's not as you say, it's not.
We, we talk about multipolarity, you know, we talk about, you know, the, the hegemony of the West collapsing and it's, you know, it's no longer just the West, the USA, NATO, what you want to call that entity calling all the shots. You know, there's a there's, there's, there's multipolar, there's, there's other groups that economically and ideologically have have got themselves into a position to
compete. So there's, there's more than one dog in the fight, you know, so you're, so you're watching that, watching that play out. You know, I think, I think whatever is on the other side of the Atlantic can't really be bothered with the war in Ukraine anymore. And I think that, but I think the, the, the globalists in Europe desperately need that war to continue. So there's a, there's a difference of opinion and different appetites at play there.
The, the, the entity on the other side of the Atlantic wants something else, the EU and, and the, and the, and the globalist, whatever entity there wants to perpetuate that war because it's all they've got. If they don't have that war, then they're the potential to. Bankers need wars and it's a proxy war at the end of the day. It's a very, very odd almost, you know, it's, it's definitely a, a war for the 21st this century because it's, it's so, yeah, it's not like a a real
war. I, when you see what's the 20% or what's the future going to be and what's the 21st century going to look like, I think that we have to deal with the reality that the problems we face have been generations in the making and there'll be generations in the fixing.
Yeah, I, I mean, I'm, I'm not confident of seeing anything fixed in my lifetime, but there's I think what, what is happening or what has happened is a realization by enough people that the such that we're that we're living with something rotten. I think people are aware in different levels, but so many people have got at least the notion that the system that we have is broken. It's fundamentally not serving us.
You know, I think, I think there's a realisation out there that really we should be living in a time of plenty. The, the, the fear and the, and the suggestion of scarcity that's out there. I mean, I put this out on social media just yesterday or something. This, this idea that there's, there's not enough energy or there's not enough food or there's too many people. That whole Malthusian thing that, that, that thing that boils down to there being not enough to go around is just not
true. It's a, it's a, it's a fiction. It's a cynical fiction that's that's maintained and perpetuated because it it it, it affords the the powerful people, you know, the control, the control that they need. I think plenty of people are realizing that it doesn't have to be that way. And I think we're we could be, we could. I think if I'm being optimistic, we could be on the cusp of apocalypse.
Apocalypse being, you know, the awakening, the revelation, Yeah, the drawing aside of a, of a curtain of obfuscation and illusion to to to reveal reality. I think we're, I think that is, that is potentially there. And you do, you do find yourself straying into territory where you need to sort of slightly uncomfortable and unfamiliar vocabulary. Yeah. You have to talk about spirituality and you have to talk about what it is to be human and alive.
And you have to, you know, what is real value? What does freedom even mean? Freedom's always held up as just that. You know, it's just the, you know, great, fantastic. You know, everybody wants freedom. Freedom's actually an onerous responsibility. You to be to accept freedom is to take responsibility for yourself and the consequences of your actions. And an awful lot of people, what they really want is to be held by the hand and LED.
They say they want freedom, but really what they want is, is confinement with benefits. Yeah. Or, or a kind of a fur line. A fur line sell with with broadband. Freedom. Freedom is what you know, Kris Kristofferson said freedom's just another word for nothing, left to lose. And absolutely. I was just going to say also, you know, you once said that courage is courageous. How do we make truth as courageous as fear?
Because you know, we, we have got a lot of courageous people like yourself, like, you know, myself and other, other colleagues who stand up and really, you know, tell the truth. But there's so much fear and it's getting over that, that fear. What you know the the fear is how we are manipulated and, and, and how how they how they ultimately will win this battle. Again, I, I feel, I've, I feel it goes, but it's, it goes back
to fundamentals. I've, I at the moment struggle to maintain an interest in the forensic analysis of the state of the nation. I feel as if I've got enough, I understand and I forgot what happened in the last five years that you know, I, I don't, I don't feel the need to get any more detail. I've got the gist of what happened and I've got the gist of what's going on, you know, without minutely unpicking every last thread of it. I mean, that's for other people to do.
That's not particularly the way that that I am wired up. But when I talk about going back to fundamentals, you know, I'm interested in, you know, common law, I'm interested in natural law. What is being done? The fear is part of it. What is being done, what is being pursued by a very tiny psychopathic anti human minority is against the natural law? Yeah, I was going to ask you
that question. You know, do, do you believe in a divine natural law that will somehow be will, you know, will give people the, the means to unpick all this? You know, because it's very difficult. I mean, and you once said also that totalitarianism doesn't come unannounced. You know, are we missing anything here? You know, are we missing any of the cues or the clues to, to really almost, you know, there's two questions there. Do you clearly believe in
natural law? Do you think that that there will be a divine hand that will unpick all this by by by simply by natural law? Well, when you, you talk about a divine hand, you know, that's sort of, I don't feel the need to, as it were, anthropomorphize natural law. No, I what, what I do believe without actually having to imagine a, a person. You know, I believe that the, the, the universe has our wants the best for us. Otherwise, I don't think there would be anything, you know,
why, why NFA? It's difficult to it's difficult to have these conversations. I mean, it's fun to have these conversations, Sandy, but it's also difficult to have them without sounding like some kind of an, you know, you know, straying into sort of new age nut case territory, You know, and by that I mean no pejorative, but I'm as much of A
nut case as the next person. But what, what I what I mean is that I believe that the universe wants the best for us, existence wants the best for us, and that what is being imposed by the psychopathic minority is an inversion of the natural law. I've, I've said before, I feel it's a bit like holding a, a beach ball under the surface of the sea. Yeah, you can, you can do it for as long as you've got the energy
to hold under the water. But the ball wants to be somewhere else, and eventually it will go there because that's in the natural order. Yeah. This, this has been everything. That's all we, what we see around us are corruptions and perversions, inversions of the way things ought to be and the way things could be. And I believe that we will get back the natural order. The natural law will reassert itself. Hmm. Yeah, I, yes, I, I agree with you on that one. I think that's the only thing
that keeps me going actually. Because, yeah, I mean, we on the face of it, if you, if you look at at what's going on right now, take a snapshot of the UK right now and it, it is so mad and so dystopian and, and all sorts of things are going on that are just clearly not right. I mean it's. Very confronting. It's very confronting. I mean, I'm talking about freedom being, you know, quite, quite a difficult thing to contemplate and that it ought, you know, not to be taken lightly.
When, when you know, we're, we're seeing clearly the, the, you know, all the stuff around, see the, the rape gangs and the grooming gangs and whatever. And people are rightly, I mean, whatever emotion second, enraged, appalled, demanding justice. All of that is right. But I think what the, the, the, the perversion, the, the corruption of the natural order of the natural law.
That's that's manifest in that behaviour, that all that's happening at the moment is it we're pretending that it's, we know exactly where it is and who did it. And I think unhappily and uncomfortably that abuse of children, that behaviour is, is endemic and rife. I think it's through the flesh of Britain. Like, like, like, like, you know, like fat through neat, like the lettering through Blackpool Rock.
It's all the way through from the highest to the lowest, you know, and without naming names, I believe that the highest and the most powerful are engaged in that behaviour, have been engaged in that behaviour at some level at some time.
That is, it's prevalent and it's there and it's uncomfortable to confront that the corruption, the corruption in our society is. And when I, when I talk about, you know, the responsibility, we're, we're all sadly kind of complicit in it. You know, we've, we've been, we've been living, you know, comfortable, insulated lives, a lot of us. And now we realize now we're being made to confront the horror and the depravity and the cruelty and the misery that has been endemic for a very
considerable proportion of our society. You know, the mistreatment and the misuse and the abuse, it's so prevalent that we can't, we're, we're going to have to face up to it. This is, this has happened on our, our society has gone our, our, our establishment, our society has, has, has been corrupt on our watch and we've we've let it be like that to some extent. A. Lot of it is that we, we weren't until the information age, we weren't as aware of it.
I think that's fair to say. I think this is, this corruption has gone on for thousands of years, actually hundreds and thousands of years, you know, since Babylonian times. So we've had, we've had all that. But I think what's different now is that we have the ability to to see it and to see it from what it is. It's very uncomfortable to look at it. Yeah, that that that it actually is is in some ways is confronted
and revealed. It's it's naturally organically being revealed to us on a on a daily basis. And I think it is it's a massive shock. It's like every day is another download of of corruption and and and deepest horrible, you know, tyranny in in many, particularly with with children and.
And when you and when you look at what's been what's been done in our names and in our parents names and our grandparents names in other parts of the world, you know, you know, you look at what's you look at what has happened in the Middle East really from, you know, let's say from the First World War, from the time of the First World War onwards, what has been done there, you know, and the disruption that has been done there and the kind of realities and the kind of everyday lives
that have been inflicted upon millions of people. And, and of course, the, all those, so many of those people have those abused and damaged societies are unloading onto the rest of the world. You know, they're coming away from those places that, that on our watch and in our names and parents, things these places were were disrupted and or
destroyed. You know, we know now it's, it's common parallels to talk about the seven wars that, that, that were embarked upon by, by the US, you from the early 1990s onwards, you know, 7 wars in five years, you know, Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Iraq, Iran, all these places that were to be destroyed and regime changed. Oh no, in our name, apparently by NATO, by the US, that was being, that was being done.
And now, of course, we're seeing consequences, you know, and the and the the world has been upturned and people are on the move and people have people who've suffered generational abuse as societies. I have now elsewhere in the world and it's causing trouble. But then it would wouldn't it?
And I was listening to see. That if you think about it, I, I remember when George Bush, you know, initiated the, the, the sacking of the Baghdad Museum. I mean, they were, they were destroying also history that that needed to be suppressed. Without a doubt, that was going on. We've made, we have, we have been, we have slumbered through a generationally, we in the West have slumbered through the suffering of others. And we've we've, we've turned a
blind eye on a deaf. You're all, we've been all because of the control of the narrative. We were, you know, we're being persuaded that things were otherwise. But now we're catching up. The Internet is not just showing us what's happening now in real time, it's also confronting us with what happened years ago, decades ago, centuries ago. All of The Dirty linen is now being washed in front of our eyes. And you know you can. You can turn away from it only
for so long before events. We're all being confronted with it. And that's what I mean when I say that we, you know, we it, it. Well, it doesn't have to be this way. And the and the corrupted system cannot go on. Yeah, I mean, to a degree. I mean, we're, we're being attacked in a very different way. I mean that, yes, there's been adventure abroad for the, the, the, the sake of the, the, the narrative, the globalist Western agenda or whatever you want to call it.
But you know, we, we here are still as, as under attack. And I often say this when people talk about, Oh yes, but you know, what about the Middle East, yes, it's what's been going on there has been absolutely appalling. But we at the moment of witnessing the destruction of this country in lots of ways of being, for instance, NET 0, all of those. That's that's what people, yeah, that's what we're that's what we're seeing now. You know, it's it's, it's all, it's washing up on our shores
now. And now this and now the same abuses that that we've seen nothing yet. No, I know. Yeah, you. Know, I mean, I it, it does look, it's hard to it's hard not to begin to draw the conclusion that the West is being, you know, I say it's being dismantled. It is absolutely the time of the time of the the time of the West is, is someone has decreed that that time has passed. And presumably it simultaneously it's being it's it has been ordained that some other empire must rise.
But we are we in the West are seeing it now the the deindustrialization. I mean, who would have thought you and I that we would live to see Germany deindustrialized? You know, it's being brought to its knees economically. Germany, the powerhouse of Europe. You know that you took that for granted for the last 20 years or more. And who would have, who would have thought that the things that are happening across Europe, across Western Europe would ever have happened here?
Yes, the farmers being, you know, farmers being driven off of the land clearly with the objective that there'd be less food and that and that a minority be find it easier to be in control of the food supply. The, you know, the freedom to transact, the freedom to spend cash, the privacy, the community family, the the clear distinction between male and female. All of these things are being undermined. Causing division as well. Everything is causing division by design on the streets of our
of our of our land. You know whether it's. You've got, you've got to hold. I mean, I think you've got to hold two thoughts in your head simultaneously. You know, the communities are being just all the things that people are angry that that are happening. The people are right to be angry about all of those things that are happening, but it's being done from above. Oh. Oh yes, we know that, yeah.
You know, we're people, we're angry with our neighbors, you know, we're angry with the people that are being placed alongside us in whatever, you know, whatever way you want to interpret those words. You know, people are being put side by side with other people or they're being mixed together and that's having consequences, unhappy consequences mostly. But who's doing it? Who's doing it to the countries? Who is taking the countries apart?
The West has stood. The West stood for as long as it stood. And now it's being taken apart. And it's stood because people were determined that it stand. And it's being taken apart because others are being determined that it be taken apart. You know, these things are not happening organically and by accident, right? It's all been, it's all happening by design, by design. And people are just furious with other people, other people who are just just other people.
And the real problem? We're not focusing our attention, far less our anger upon, because we don't even know who they are. Well, have you any idea?
What, what I, what I, I mean, our general guiding rule that I live by is that if you know their name and you know the face that they, their middle management at most you know, And when it comes to see the political scene, if someone, if, if, if it's being ordained that you can, that that's a legitimate opposition or or a legitimate political party, then it won't make any difference. Anyone that you can, anyone that you can see, anyone whose face is familiar to you, anyone whose
name is familiar to you. At most, At most, the middle management. They're not making decisions, they're not in control. They are just fact totems. Exactly. Filling a role and you know, we get given generationally we get, we get given one set after another. Well, you can see that, that all our governments, you know, they all act the same way because they're being, they're being dictated to by the UN, the WEF, the The Who and whoever is above that.
There's something going on where we, we don't have party, party politics anymore. It's a uni party. We know that. So, so in fact, the government structure doesn't work anymore. So but. Even party, but, but where do you start? Party politics, I mean as though that was good you know what what the the Bill of Rights 16881689 you know the the the so-called sovereignty of parliament. I mean that that was just more of the rot of. Course it was, yeah.
You know, and the and the establishment of the of the party political system was poison. So do you think we should be moving away completely? Well, we should, actually. Everything has to break down, doesn't it? But how? It can't be we. Can't more intelligent? Yeah, you can't fix it. No, the system is rotten. Yeah, you can't. You can't. You can't fix the swamp from inside the swamp. If you step into the swamp with the intention of fixing it, you'll just be up to your neck in the swamp.
Well, exactly. So what do you? Well, turn aside, turn away from it. Yeah, that's what I mean about it taking, you know, it's been, it's been, it's been generations in the happening and it'll take generations to fix. There's there's not going to be any overnight instant fixes for it.
No, it's fundamental problems that we're dealing with all the way back to education, all the way back to the way that, that people are not educated, you know, all the way, you know, you know, the undermining of, of family life and family values, the, the taking a part of community, all of these things will take generations to fix. I mean, when you think about Fabianism, Fabian Fabianism is, is it's their, their, their logo, one of their logos is the tortoise.
And it's about gradualism, isn't it? So it's taken years, hundreds of years to actually put in place the destruction of our world. And Fabianism is is global, but particularly in the Uki mean it started in in the UKI believe. So what you know that all of that will take years to unpick. It's taken years to put in place. So it will take years to unpick. It begins. It begins with awareness. Yeah, it, it begins with with seeing it, knowing it, accepting it to some extent, accepting
responsibility. Yes. You know, it's like that. It's that thing around you like a, you know, a car accident, you know, you know, nobody accepts liability because both vehicles were there, otherwise the accident wouldn't have happened. You know, and, you know, insurance companies don't accept liability. And none of us can, none of us can pretend that, that, that we don't bear any sort of responsibility for that because
we are here. You know, karma means you're doing what happens to you is your fault. You did it. You know, it's not. Well, people, people of this mixed up idea about karma that you know, that means that if you, you know, if you commit wrong in the past life, that something equal and will happen to you in the next life. It's not like really the essence of karma is that if it happens to you, it's your doing.
It's not it's, it's you, it's you, it's, it's not just external forces and so. Yeah, not many people take personal responsibility these days. It's always somebody else's fault, Yeah. But but the beginning, but all of it, the journey of 1000 miles and all of the rest of it, it will begin with knowing, seeing, accepting and not and not continuing to turn a blind eye until and to hoping it'll just get better.
And to thinking that if you just hold your breath long enough, somebody else will fix it. Yeah. And asking, asking all the time. Well, you know, who's going to fix it? What are you going to do? But it's, it's going, it's personal responsibility. Yeah, I mean, changing the subject for a moment, I mean, what are your views on the royal family? I know I'm taking that out of nowhere. What's do you have any, any opinions on, on, on, you know, because you you you're a historian, obviously.
Are they? Obviously? Can't be bothered with them. That's always been my position. I can't really be bothered with them. Yeah, Yeah, I'm not. I mean, I remember particularly when I was a week, when I was a week. Well, when I was a little boy, when, when, when Diana Spencer married the Prince of Wales. Yeah, Yeah, I was a little boy and my mum as a as a whole country did. We had a sort of a we had a sort of a, it was a sort of a party in the house. It's. A fairy trip, isn't it? Yeah.
You know, and my mum put on different foods, you know, there was some sort of, you know, buffet lunch and it was all royal weather and that. And I remember I Jane, honestly, I remember thinking at the time, this is a bit weird, This is a bit odd. I don't know, I don't know who these I don't know these people and all.
And then, you know, Fast forward to the death of, of Diana Spencer, Whatever happened there, that that outpouring of grief, people crying in the street, rending of clothes and mountains of flowers heaped in the streets of London. I looked on at that and thought, I, I don't understand what, what, what that I, I don't, I, these people don't know that woman. How can they be experiencing such a visceral grief? I just couldn't get it.
And I've always looked on at the royal family as just Punch and Judy show. I, I, I've never invested them with I, I mean, I understand that they mean a lot to people. And there was no denying that, you know, at the death of Queen Elizabeth, that was, that was the end of an era. I mean, that was that there was a historical, that was a historical moment she'd been around from that most people couldn't remember a time when she wasn't there and then
suddenly she wasn't there. I mean, that was a moment that was a historical moment. Regardless, that was just a moment. I mean. How how about the the king? Obviously he, you know, when he was Prince Charles I. Can't bear him. Well, I can't bear him. I've never. I've never liked him. I don't know. I don't like him. I didn't like him as I didn't like him as the Prince of Wales and I don't like him as the parent. I don't.
Like him, so embedded with with with the WEF, he's he's definitely not working for the people in in as far as he's pushing this and always has done. He was at the Earth Summit in 1992, you know, hobnobbing with the all the globalists on. It's absolutely bizarre. I mean, when you look at it, you know, as a nation, we have a sort of a nominated family that that that are just treated entirely differently than everybody else.
Yeah. You know, like, like chunks of the aristocracy across Europe, they're all descended from John William Friso. He was a kind of a middle management aristo. And, you know, the the Windsors are descended from him. And as are other, you know, royal families are descended from John William Friso.
And we've accepted that, that this family who changed the name, you know, who changed the name to Windsor to, you know, to get around the awkwardness of being at war with Germany are just treated entirely differently.
I mean, when the you know, when, when, when, when the Queen was when Elizabeth was still on the throne and during the 1960s and 70s when laws were being put through Parliament and entering the statute books about the the way in which she couldn't discriminate about employees and you couldn't discriminate. The queen put a red pen through all of that in relation to her properties. None of that applies to the none of that applied then to the properties of the royal family.
And that went, that went through, that was noted through, yes, you're different. You can treat your employees differently because you're Elizabeth Windsor. It's absolutely bizarre and it's it's, it's perpetuated. And when grown, grown-ups watch another man, you know, wearing a fur trimmed cloak and a hat covered in stolen jewels, it's absolutely bizarre. And the whole It's beyond pantomime. And all of that.
There's, there's, there's definitely a lot of rather esoteric weird stuff with the, you know, the Order of the Garter and the, the Free Masonic stuff it goes. Before you. Yeah, that's before you get into the whole idea that that ever since the, the, the paperwork was signed for the Common Market, that the, the, you know, the Queen was in breach of her coronation oath from that moment onwards, you know, and that was a, that was a betrayal.
I mean, the country has been, I mean, if you, if you believe in a constitutional monarchy, I'm just, that's, that's what we're supposed to have. That's what we're told. We live in a constitutional monarchy. Well, everyone's in breach of it. Yeah, everyone is in breach of it. No, the king is not. The Queen didn't. And the King is not living up to the Coronation Oath, which is essentially to defend the people of Britain against against harm.
About against out outside, yeah. Basically they gave us a way to a foreign power when they we joined the EU. And yet we we continue to pretend. I mean, it's, you know, basically our, our royal spouse has been unfaithful to us. Yes, you know, has been in breach of the marriage vows for all of that time. And we're all just pretending like it's happy families. It's. Absolutely it's. Palpable nonsense, a whole lot of it. You ask me what I think of the royal family.
I just think what absolute nonsense. Yeah, no, they, they are really part of the biggest problem, I think not maybe not the biggest, but a huge problem, maybe the biggest. Who knows? We don't know how deep it goes, but I've got a inkling that it goes quite deep. And yeah, there's a there's, there's a lot more that to the royal family than than. Well, I mean, there's a whole. There's a whole, you know, there's a whole the, the, the City of London, you know, is a,
is a separate entity. You know, you cross into the City of London that, you know, everything's different. It's a different jurisdiction. There's a, there's a guy sits in Parliament called the remembrance, the City remembrancer. You know who who's there to make sure that nothing gets in the way of the, the unique and bizarre rights and privileges of the City of London, the Bank of England. It's a private entity. It pretends it's not, but it's a private business.
These, these realities are right there in plain sight. Absolutely. And we we, we go about our daily lives and as, as though, as though the reality was something different, but it's not. Exactly. Well, we're we're coming near nearing the end. I know a lot of our viewers and I don't know whether you whether
you're OK about me asking this. They say, well, things have been different with you and GB News. I mean, they've they've asked, you know, why don't you sort of why aren't you actually there so much so you can answer this or not and we can move on to the next question. But our viewers have been saying, well, what is he? What is going on? Well, I just, I mean, I said earlier, I, I joined right at the beginning. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm part, I'm one of the original.
There's not many of us left. Actually. I think it's myself and maybe Nana Aqui and and and and and Michelle Dewberry. Michelle Dewberry was in the original lineup as well. And then, and then there's me. Yeah. So I mean, I've been, I've been there all that time. And honestly, I mean, I see this hand in heart. It's an evolving business. GB News. And it did for a time.
For a time I was on a Saturday night and I had a you know, I did a live 2 hours and then I did a live hour and, you know, I was able to do my monologues, which, you know, garnered quite a bit of attention at the time. But, you know, nothing, nothing lasts or lasts forever. And, you know, the world moved on the, the, the, the, the business as GB News moved on. All I do know what I do, all I do what I do know for GB News is only online. You know, the, the, the, it's
called GB News originals. It's the online presence. And I mean, I just, you know, I record everything here, you know, and I interview people and I and I do monologues and, and so on and so on. And that, you know, that my, you know, my role within the company has changed. I, I have a perfectly happy relationship with the, with the people that I talked to at GB News. And it's just, you know, my, my role there, my relationship there is, you know, has evolved over time, but it's, it's not a
problem like. Nice to work from home, you don't have to do all that travelling. Right. I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's, it has, you know, it has, it has changed over the years. And yeah, but you know, I mean, I think, I mean, I suppose GB News would they would mind me saying that that it has GB News has, has has established a, a, a, a mode of an identity, I
suppose. Yeah, I think possibly, probably, you know, when it launched in in 2021, it was a kind of a who, who are we and what are we doing? You know, it was a, it was a fledgling thing. And it has, over time it has, it has found an audience, it has cultivated an audience. It has a, it has a kind of an identity. It's got more of an identifiable identity. And, you know, you know, I'm not. I'm not, you know, I'm not may be central to that identity, but I'm still there.
Yeah. And it's still, it still enables, it still enables me to get content out to an audience that I would otherwise not have. No, I think, I think it's very important that that in some ways that you possibly don't align to that that identity as much as you did in in the beginning because it has never been a. Great. I've never, sadly, I've never been much of A joiner. I'm not much of A, I'm not much of A team player.
I've never been enough, you know, I've never followed a football team or I've never been a fan. I've never, I've never, you know, as Oscar Wilde said, you know, I would, I would never want anything to do with any club that would accept me as a member wherever I am. I'm just me. Yeah. And from the get go with GB News, what GB News offered me at the time and what I took advantage of was an opportunity to get information out. Camera pointed at me live both.
You know, that's you know, that's pretty special. I was talking directly to whoever was watching. Yeah. You know, and I thought, great, if if GB News are going to let me do that, I'll do that for GB News. And now, you know, now I do stuff in the online world and this I've never, I've never really been a, you know, I don't fly a flag or hold a scarf above my head and chant a a company song, No.
I. Just I just, it's always, it just afforded me an opportunity to get to have my opinion aired. Yeah. And it still does. And for the rest of it, what it's doing, you know, whoever else is presenting, whoever else's opinions are out there, let's them. That's up to the end. Fantastic. If, if, if, if, whoever is if Jacob Rees Mogg is still saying his stuff and Nigel Farage is
saying he's saying his stuff. And Nana Akoway and Tubes, they're just and, and you know, Ben Leo and the rest of them are out there saying their stuff. That's them. Yeah, it's best Turner's still working for GV News. Yeah, yeah. Bev's out. She hosts. I think she's, I think she might be on annual leave at the moment. I'm not sure, but she hosts now from Washington, DC. Yes, yes, I say. She's she's, she's out there. She does. It's a show that it was out
late. She felt, you know, she's in daytime in DC. Yeah, but it was out late here and it's like midnight. It, it broadcasts. But yeah, she's she's there in the kind of the DC office of JV News. Yeah. Lying around in Air Force One, apparently. I don't. Know she's, I believe she has a couple of trips on Air Force One, yes. And now we're coming to the kind of, you know, the time really that we it's you know, it's been lovely talking to you and I
could go on forever. You're so interesting and you're so you know, you're so wonderfully good at sharing everything that your shocks goes on. No, it's always great. So yeah, it I was just gonna say if if you could leave a message to people that feel powerless. And there's a lot of people that do right now in the face of, of what's going on in, in, in the world.
What would it be right now? What would, what would you, I mean, what, what, what would you say to people that are feeling, Oh gosh, you know, this is we're not going to win this. It's awful. You know, how, how do we deal with all this? What would you say? No, no pressure. It's all. It's all a matter of perspective. You see what you want to see. You know, I can't remember it's, it's often attributed to Max Planck. The the line is when you change the way you look at things, the
things you look at change. So if you're aware of the double slit experiment and so on, particles become waves, waves become particles depending on whether they're watched or not watched. But you know, if you change, when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. And each of us as an as an individual, OK, if you look at someone else with anger and heat in your heart, the thinking is that that actually physiologically effects that person that you're looking at.
If you look at the same person with, I don't know, love, the effect on them is different. Yeah, even arguably if they don't know you're looking at them at all. So each one of us, I believe we affect the very fabric of reality by being here. The, you know, the universe, the entire universe is made different, is made different by each one of us being in it. And every action that we take, every thought that we manifest changes something. It matters. Our absence would matter just as
our presence does. And so I think, you know, feeling powerless, feeling helpless, Well, to some extent, that's up to you. Yeah. If you change the way you look at something, the something you're looking at changes. Let's bear that in mind. And so you can't have. You can't have. I mean, if you have, if you allow yourself to just have a random moment of loathing, which we all do. I mean, I'm not claiming any kind of special state is here.
No, But bear in mind, bear in mind that the very act that allowing yourself to do that matters. Yeah. It it it it has an effect. Yeah, and, and, and you're right, your, your mood can change if you go out for a walk, you know, if you could just embrace nature, you know, if you're feeling, you know, disempowered or, or or, you know, just depressed, even it, it you're right, it does, it makes a difference when you when you I. Was chatting. I was chatting over the weekend with Ahmed Malik.
You'll know, Ahmed. I know Ahmed. Yeah, and I recorded with him and he, he, you know, he whatever, he prompted me to say something, which I'll see it again because I think it matters. It's on my mind at the moment. And I, I quite often think, I
wonder why things are remote. So I'll say again what I said there, which is that there was a, there's a mythology around a bit of graffiti that was found in a basement during World War 2. And it it's, it's attributed to, well, whoever it was some some refugee, someone hiding, maybe a group of people, whatever. And scratched into a wall was I believe in the sun even when I do not see it. I believe in love, even when I do not feel it. I believe in God even when he is silent.
That's brilliant, yeah. You know, so that if pondering on, I've been pondering that. I've known that for years and it comes and goes from my consciousness. It's it's it's in my consciousness at the moment. So I keep saying it, I say it to myself, and I'm saying it again to you now. Yeah, but. It's there. The sun is there, love is there, God is there. Yeah, absolutely.
And it's. Just because you're not seeing it, feeling it or or hearing it is that that doesn't mean anything, no. No, that's that's, that's a really good way to. Do so I'll, I'll leave you with one final thought. You've got to go in there. There's a Kabbalistic saying from the Kabbalah. Whatever you think of that. I mean, it's just another
resource of information. Yeah. Every every bird, every flower, every stone that you have seen will turn to dust and pass away, but that you have seen them will not pass away. Yeah, no that. And that matters. Yeah, yeah. No, your being here. Your experiences are forever. Yeah, thank you. Well, Neil Oliver, thanks so much for joining me today. You've been a really fabulous guest and I thank you very much. Well, thanks for having me, Sandy. I'll talk to you anytime. It's a pleasure.