Hello, I'm Charles Mallett with AUK column interview and today I'm joined by Doctor Sam Bailey who has received a demand for 148,000 New Zealand dollars by a disciplinary tribunal. Sam, thank you very much for joining me and a very warm Welcome to UK column. Oh, it's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation. Not at all. Now, as I alluded to you, you have quite a well, let's say challenge ahead of you in in many regards.
But I think what I'd like to do is just step back from that and there's going to be a lot to get through. But let's start with a with a bit of background and on the medical side of it, the career side of it. Just describe to me what your medical practise, what your life was like prior to 2020 and and your voyage into the public eye, let's say. Yes. Well, I was trained conventionally at, so I went to Otago University in New Zealand and I worked in various
different specialties. So general practise, emergency medicine, sexual health and clinical trials. I spent quite a long time with new drugs and I was the research physician, like the one of the lead physicians, looking after the patients. So seeing people and looking after them while they're trialling new drugs. And I was always probably quite orthodox and conventional. I did everything by the book. I patients tended to like me a lot and I never had a patient complaint.
And I started to get a little bit disgruntled with medicine, the work a few years before 2020 where I got frustrated with the problems with trying to get treatments to people. So I started my own online doctor business, which was the first of its kind in New Zealand, and before that kind of became normal. And as a consequence of that, I was sort of headhunted for ATV show to be a health presenter for that. And I never thought you could do that as a doctor. And I loved it.
And I really loved doing presenting. And so I did a series for the, like, the main network in New Zealand. And then one of my very good friends suggested to me that I should start my own YouTube channel because of doing this presenting. And I thought, oh, really like people would want to watch a doctor. And she said, yeah, yeah, yeah, do that. You'd be really good at it.
So. And about halfway through 2019, I sort of started a channel, but it was mostly focused on my business that I had at that time. And, and then at the end of that year, I burnt myself out with this business. And then I decided I'm just going to go back into the work that I was doing and, and just do these YouTube videos on the side. And so I did that really. And then, yeah, 2020 happened. And so, yeah, do you want me to continue with with 2020?
Well, I'll tell you what just just before we do get into that, because I think I think it's fascinating that that it was that way round in, in that you you were very much in the public eye. And you therefore, had, you know, gone to YouTube as well, which I'm sure we might be able to talk about a little bit later.
But I think given what's happened before or during perhaps your time speaking as a doctor on television, was there any, was there any relationship there with the Medical Council of New Zealand as to sort of what you should or shouldn't do? I mean, you know, in terms of the the messaging, were you given pressure or direction from anywhere as to how to conduct yourself? No, not at all. So it was a scripted TV show. So it was based on a British TV
show actually called. I'm just trying to think of it. It's a doctor one. Sorry, it's left me. It will come to me later that Michael Mosley was on that TV show. So that was what it was very much. I was one of four presenters. And because it was scripted, you couldn't go off paste at all like it was. You said what you were supposed to say and they taught me how to do presenting.
Really, I didn't know how to do any of that first until I did that TV show and I was They got me back for a second season and I was halfway through filming that in 2020 when everything went wrong. Wow, OK. But so that's fascinating looking back then, you know, to the the fact that it was scripted and whatever and now viewing public health in the way that you do, how do you sort of consider what it is that you were being asked to do and say?
Yeah, there's a lot of forgiveness of you have to do of yourself of the things that I once believed in. And I think I think about this on lots of different areas. So it crosses over into vaccination and in areas that I, I just assumed everything that I was taught was correct and I never questioned it and I never looked at it myself. And it was actually funny because when I started the YouTube channel in particular, people would write in and ask me questions and I, I had a bit of hubris.
I thought that I knew everything. And then I realised the questions are asking me. I thought, Oh my gosh, I'm way out of my depth here. I don't know. And the public are really well educated. And it really, it humbled me to think actually, you know, what I once knew was wrong. And I don't take anything for granted now. So that's what I focus myself and my husband, Mark, we focus on extensive research before we'll make a comment on
anything. So yeah, I, I feel a little bit ashamed of what I was like, but I, you have to forgive yourself for that. Yeah, I mean, I, well, that's very candid. I, I think really I, I was sort of considering it from the other side of it, as in you were being used as a mouthpiece, as a trusted voice. I mean. So rather than considering your own part in it, I was wondering also what you think about those that were using you in effect as a as a messaging tool.
Definitely. That's totally what it was. And I was the most popular of the presenters. I knew that they told me that. They gave me that feedback. And I, yeah, I, I, I didn't, I liked the idea of being on TV and that sort of thing. And, you know, initially you feel really flattered by it, but they do use you for their own
purposes. And now I look back at what the kind of subjects were and they were clearly, you know, came top down of these are the these are the talking points that we need to the public to be aware of. And yeah, and I was very naive
to that. And, and so, you know, with that in mind, get, get well, obviously you've heard your husband Mark again, medically trained when the, the initial reporting was coming out sort of end of 2019 about, you know, yet another scary and mysterious illness from China. There was obviously a, a, very much an, an echo to things that we'd heard previously over the last couple of decades. If you, if you can recall what, what, what did you think at that
point? And and you know, what were you talking about with Mark and those those around you? Yeah. So obviously we at the end of 2019, beginning of 2020, you know, we were paying attention to this, but a lot of it, we thought, oh, this is, this sounds like nothing, you know, like that, nothing's going to come of it really. And then as the media hype really intensified and this is at the stage, I'm getting quite a few questions from my audience asking me to talk about
coronavirus. And I only had a really small channel at this point. And I thought I felt a bit uncomfortable with it because I didn't know. And I, I thought, I don't really want to report on this until I know more. And Mark was heavily behind me doing the research where both of us were at that stage trying to
put the pieces together. And I think the overwhelming feeling was, and I'm sure you and your audience wouldn't identify with us, was that it didn't the the messaging that we were getting on the media didn't have any semblance of what was happening in reality. Like you could look outside and think, this looks completely normal, like everything's fine. But why are they saying all this?
And that it was that mismatch of information that really set us off on looking into it. And particularly, I had no interest in virology and viruses. I'll be perfectly honest, it's a very dry, boring subject and I never thought that that would be something that we would end up diving into so deeply. But it is what happened because we had to understand for ourselves. And I think we looked initially at The Who information and realised this doesn't, this doesn't add up.
The people that are dying, elderly at their time of life, end of life, this is this real? There's big problems here. And then obviously dived right into the of the the research. And I mean, you know, the audience, obviously UK column audience is predominantly based in the UK, but we do have a very
wide base all over the world. And everybody will identify anyone certainly listen to this will, will identify exactly with with what you're saying to to what extent in New Zealand, a country that I think from the outside looked like it had an incredibly harsh regime imposed. To what extent did that was that Telegraph, did it, did it seem like it was going to go bananas or, or was that, did that come as a enormous surprise?
They really tested the population quite a lot with I, I think the media in itself was very critical of, of like they, they really like Jacinda Arjun was framed as this kind of saviour in a way. And so she was coming off, she was still very popular because of other things that had happened over the previous years. And so I think the fear was ramped up massively and the population were like putty in the hands of the authorities. And, you know, extremely, they just went along with it all.
And yeah, it was extremely authoritarian, Mark and I didn't go along with any of it from the beginning because we thought it was wrong and had no basis. And, you know, these ideas of mandates and things, obviously these are agreements and we went on into that. But you realise too how politicians were portrayed overseas, like over the time Jacinda became more and more unpopular, but overseas she was still portrayed as this amazing person and was doing all these
wonderful things. But it was, I mean, even we had those extreme MIQ quarantine rules where it was basically like coming into a prison if you were coming back into the country as a New Zealander and you'd be in these quarantine situations. And I mean, looking back now, there's no way they could get away with it now. But at that time, I think the population was incredibly fearful of what, of what this thing was. I. Think that's it.
I think again, really wherever anyone was, the the response was just so surprising that people were almost exclusively caught off guard. Now for the majority of us with without any skin in the game, as it were, with no medical training, no medical professional links. Whether or not as you, as you say, go along with it was a was a different decision for for you to decide to not go along with it or to speak out is a is a of a altogether different order of
magnitude. Just describe how it was that you did make that decision to become active and to speak out, and therefore to put your reputation, as it were, on the line. Yeah, I guess. So in early 2020, we were getting these requests and people were asking and I thought, OK, I'll just say what I think and say that this is my opinion. And because I maybe it's my naive personality, but that's what I'm like. I just think, I'll just say what I think. And, you know, I didn't know, I
had no idea what was coming. But we found this book, Virus Mania, which was critical for Mark. And I, Mark found it first. And it was about the history of virology, of the different pandemics that have happened before and how you could see what was playing out real time. And that caused a paradigm shift in my thinking and Mark's
thinking. And a lot of the themes of my videos then became focused on this virus mania book because I just, I found it so the shift of, of losing fear and about what pandemics were and not being scared. So I, and again, this was not sort of intentional. I had no idea what was playing out because I was still working at this point as a doctor in clinical trials. I had my, you know, bread and butter, as it were. And, but my videos are really popular.
So I did one on social distancing and I think it got over 600,000 views on YouTube. And I didn't, you know, it was really surprising to me and people would get very angry in the comments. And I, I thought, OK, well, I'm just going to play along with this. I'm just going to carry on and see what happens.
But it was really September 2020 that it was my crossing of the Rubicon where I made a video and I consciously did this where I, I knew that there was in New Zealand at that time, it was just before the elections were happening. And a lady that I knew was running APCR clinic in my hometown, Christchurch. And she told me that they'd shut it down for several months before and that now the Ministry of Health were pumping all this money in.
And I knew when they did that, that the testing would go up and therefore the cases would go up and the fear. And so I made a video about that. And as a side issue, I kind of said I won't have a coronavirus vaccine if and when it comes about. And I, I thought, I'm saying this, this is my opinion. And I, I specifically said, I'm not telling you what to do. You've got to make your own decision up, but this is what
I'm doing. And, and then I had a phone call from the TV show, from the lawyer saying take down your video. And I was sort of just so affronted. I was like, what, what do they think? They're not the editor of my YouTube channel. Well, I can go and get stuffed. And so I said no. And I said, well, take down, take out the bit on vaccines. And I knew then what this was all about and this happened and you realise how planned these things are because that happened.
Then I had an email from the Medical Council saying I'd had all these complaints about this video. There was smear articles from AFP and you know, the fact checking organisations, Facebook was blocking my video. And yeah, it just, it was like my whole world changed at that point. My, the job that I'd had for a long time, for 12 years, told me to stop coming into work.
And, and it was at the time, it was really shocking and kind of, but you're sort of just on running on adrenaline and not really I, I didn't go into it thinking I'm going to create this for myself, Like this is going to happen to me. I had no idea what was kind of coming, but I'm so, so grateful for it because it was, it's really what I needed. It's what needed to happen to me to make me really wake up to much bigger problems. It is amazing.
I mean, with the benefit of hindsight again, and given your experience with clinical trials, were you even that even with that in mind, were you sort of shocked at, well, either directly or indirectly the, the, the power of the Pharmaceutical industry? Yeah, I, I think what shocked me most, Charles, was just, I thought we had, I thought we lived in a country with free speech.
And I know that sounds so naive. At the time, I really believed that I could say what I thought and there wouldn't be negative consequences in that way, that they would target my work and my reputation and everything else. And that's what really shocked me, was thinking, oh, this is really controlled. And then later on I found out that the Ministry of Health had been watching me for six months before they did anything.
And the head of the Medical Council, the CEO, was talking to the director general of Health. And this, these are incredibly powerful conversations about me and about my YouTube channel and the problem I was causing for them. And that shocked me too, when I found that out later that I thought I'm just one individual. How can it be that I'm causing so, so many ripples? But it it was very coordinated.
You know, it's amazing, especially that the the specific trigger for that was quite clearly a reference to a vaccine that as far as anyone was aware by that point didn't even exist. Was there further articulation on that point about, you know that you should sort of undergo correct, you know, with the suggestion that you might put out a different message or was it just to do taking it down? I mean we, we, were you ever given the sense that you would there to at some point promote
such a product? No, it was really This all came from that TV show. Lawyer was the that basically stop it and, you know, just stop this. And they think they thought that they could quite quickly and easily that I would just be go away quietly. And and they were, I think, surprised that I was not going to do that. Yeah. So, and at this point too, the Medical Council are asking me to sign a, a gag order and say that I can't make any videos on COVID-19. I can talk about anything else,
but not COVID-19. And there was no way I was going to bend the knee to that because it's like leading the camel in the tent. You know, you don't, you don't let them have anything otherwise. And, and I look, I'm so grateful I did that because most of the doctors that have gone through this process, at least in New Zealand have, have signed that order because they thought that they had to. And whereas I I knew straight away that this was only going to lead to very bad things.
Absolutely. Well, that's the, the right call for, for certainly for your burgeoning audience. I mean, thank goodness. But but did they specify why was it, was it that you couldn't say anything or was the the inference that anything you were going to say was going to be negative or the the wrong message? I mean, did did they actually sort of spell that out? Well, it was based on these complaints that I was, you know, causing public had the potential to cause public harm.
And because my messaging was going against the government at that time, it still is, I guess the one source of truth they couldn't have it that it was that was that was the reason. And I, I mean, I, I, I didn't even anticipate that this is the way that they'd go. Like I thought there's no way because the Medical Council, they can control my licence, practising as a doctor. And after that kind of happened, I was like, I can't be part of this.
I can't be part of this corrupt medical system. It's, it's terrible. And decided I'm not going to renew my licence. Sort of, you know, this is at the end of 2020. But you know, before that I thought, I thought they'd have no power to, to control my speech of what I'm doing in my private life. Essentially, it's not. But they, the problem with me was that I had by that stage a huge reach and a huge audience. And they were, I was making them very nervous.
Yeah, evidently so. And just you just mentioned that the certificate to practise and then the the the register itself because there was a development there, but I think the following year in 2021, what what happened then with regard to the register? In order to practise in New Zealand at least, you have to have, you're on the register, which means you're kind of on the list of doctors.
And then you apply for a practising certificate every year where you pay the fee to the Medical Council and that allows you to prescribe and order, you know, blood tests and so forth. So in 2021, I'm, I'm on the, I'm on the register and I had a practising certificate, but I was actually pregnant at that time. And I decided for various reasons as well that I, I don't
want to do this anymore. And so my practising certificate expired in May of 2021. And as soon as that happened and I published another video on YouTube, then they said that I was practising medicine without a licence by making, by publishing YouTube videos. And that's a criminal offence in New Zealand, that if you're putting, you're practising and seeing patients without being licenced, you know, you can go,
it's, it's criminal. So that was when things really started heating up because at that point I still had a lawyer and they said this is very important that I fight this because otherwise I will be, you know, could be facing, you know,
serious going to gaol. You know, this is where we, we get into the, the sort of nuts and bolts of it and the way in which the book has been thrown at you via the incredibly worded legislation contained in, in the act that covers all of this going back to I think 2003. And I'm just going to read now what, what happened a little bit later in August 2023 when a, a tribunal was convened. I don't want to jump ahead necessarily, but I think the audience just needs to
understand what, what happened. And specifically the, the, the tribunal convened and ordered cancellation of registration, not to apply for re registration for two years from the date of the decision. Censia fine of $10,000, conditions on re registration and then payment of $148,450.41, amounting to 60% of the costs of the PCC investigation and hearing estimated costs. It is perfectly astonishing.
I would say to me, to anybody listening to what you said so far that that could possibly be the result of any of this. But I, as I say, I have leapt ahead slightly, intentionally say because how did it, how on earth did it get to that point and, and to what extent were you involved in any of that? I tried to go to deal with this, you know, legally, I guess with
a lawyer. I had AQC that was helping me at that time, the Queen's Counsel, and I thought, I thought that this was legitimate, that I can fight this and say, because I was saying things like I was spreading misinformation. And I would ask, well, what is that? What is the misinformation? And they couldn't define it because they don't know it was a going against what the government was saying that is deemed as misinformation.
And so I tried to, under bad advice, we, I went to the High Court to try and stop this from happening because they were now saying that I was practising without a licence and that that didn't go in my favour. And after that I realised that there was nothing I could do. I, they were going to take me to this disciplinary tribunal. And it, it really shocked me because I thought what, what is this? What? I am only telling the truth because I haven't been lying. There's no advantage for me
doing this. But I felt very strongly that people need to, you need to speak up and say when you see something going that's wrong. And anyway, I, it was kind of leading into 2022, a few doctors had done this process of equity, which was completely new to me. And equity is the idea that if you haven't done any harm, it applies to all of us and common law jurisdiction. So New Zealand's one of them, England is another obviously. Is that you with the principles
of equity? I have no contract with them. They're trying to establish a trust with me and basically make themselves a beneficiary in order to get money off me is essentially what the process is. And under the process of equity, this is I have no contract with them. So there was a doctor that had basically was going through the process of being investigated in New Zealand, Doctor Minnie Garcia. And he was just did this process, which is issuing them notices and he was removed off
the register. Like no, not nothing was said. He was just taken off the register. And and I talked to Manny and he said, Sam, you've got to go down this process. You're not you're it's corrupt. The tribunal, the whole investigation, you can't go into the system. And so Manny convinced me and I thought like I'm going to try this.
And at the same time Mark, my husband who hasn't practised as a doctor since 2016, by this point, he was being now investigated for doing an interview, now trying to prosecute him as well. And so he did this process of equity, never communicated with the Medical Council and was again removed off the register. No, no, no information about this, just you can see that he was taken off the medical register and we knew about another 3 or 4 doctors that had
done this. So for me, they didn't take me off, but I now I realise it was because I was too much of a problem for them. They needed me as an example to other doctors. So the process went through to the tribunal and I never engaged with them after sort of early 2022 because I realised that I can't, I can't win in this. This is, it's literally a kangaroo court that they operate and they, they determine the outcome before you've even
started. Like I realise now that that was as soon as I had the first complaint, it was already determine what I was, what was going to happen to me. In fact, and I will mention this because it's affects the UK audience, but one thing that I found crazy was that there was there is auk Doctor Who's currently practising who made a complaint about me in that early time, who said that I was his
treating doctor. And this complaint was upheld by the Medical Council as a legitimate complaint because there are different pathways that you can complain about a doctor. And this U kg P said that I was seeing him and, and that I because he was watching my videos, he was choosing to. And this isn't held up as some delusion. This is accepted by the Medical Council. And this is how crazy it is. Like it's not. There's no connection with reality of what you know is going on.
None, none whatsoever. And I the the actor that I referred to is the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act of 2003. And for anyone who's put their head anywhere near any so called public health legislation, they will know the, the sort of the tenor of it and it is perfectly extraordinary. Corrupt is exactly the right word. I'm just going to read a little bit more from the results of the tribunal and part of it.
The charge summary said that the PCC submitted that Section 93 does not require evidence of actual harm, but risk of serious harm posed by the charged conduct. And then they go on say it was therefore submitted that the tribunal can be satisfied that Doctor Bailey's conduct poses a risk of serious harm to the public. So at the same time, they're saying that there's no need to provide evidence of such, but that the risk is still there.
Now, from what I read, I, I, I don't think they even articulated what sort of harm they were imagining could be serious and potential. Did that ever actually come out? No, it was essentially 2 expert witnesses that are highly compromised anyway because they work for the vaccine industry in the, the government and say said that I on their opinion that I was a, you know, had the potential of public harm. And they don't have to provide any data for this.
They just state it and that's accepted. And that's part of the costs because everything that they do is just like an open chequebook which is eventually charged back to me. So if they decide to fly down these individuals to do the tribunal and stay in hotels and have meals and everything else, that's all just put on the doctor Sam Bailey, you know, ticket there and it's charged to the Medical Council and then they pass it on to me as part of the costs. And it's, it's literally, it
could be anything. They, there's no checking or anything of what, what should be done, what, what the costs are. It's it's completely arbitrary. It is, I mean, well, I think it's more than that. I mean, it's a complete racket. You in the back and forth we had before this you, you, you phrased it very well. I thought you, you put it down as you being asked to pay for your own persecution, which is precisely what it is. I mean, it is, it is absolutely
astonishing. And just go a bit further on the on the utter corruption the the the threat of suspension was written down as as such, suspension will limit Doctor Bailey's ability to advertise herself as a doctor when she expresses harmful views. If after suspension of registration she continued to use the title Doctor, she would likely commit an offence against Section 7 brackets one of the
ACT. Now that piqued my curiosity because certainly in the United Kingdom it's totally customary for people to be referred to as doctor regardless of whether they hold a medical doctorate or otherwise, regardless of whether they're practising or retired. So IE mailed the Medical Council of New Zealand and said what's the form in terms of etiquette and procedure and whatever and I got the reply back saying the title doctor is not a protected title under current legislation.
As such, individuals who have retired from medical practise may choose to continue using the title doctor if they wish. This is common practise. So they are corrupting at at every turn. This is quite clearly abusing the letter of the law as written down that they refer to in Section 1. I have of course looked at Section 1. There's absolutely nothing about
that. So they, they are utterly moving the goal posts in order to catch you wherever it is you decide to go or, or or even if you, you know, don't necessarily do anything. What this does is it brings us to the the Medical Council themselves, because like you say, the law only allows them to fine of up to $30,000. But then they can increase by using the, the word costs. And therefore, in a sense, the Sky's the limit.
But where exactly does the Medical Council of New Zealand fit in, in terms of the sort of state architecture? How are they positioned and funded and and the rest of it? Yeah. So they are a body corporate and they are funded by medical practitioners. So they, medical practitioners pay the money every year in order so that the doctor can prescribe and so forth. So that's where the most, that's where their money comes from.
But it also means that they're not, you can't do Freedom of Information requests about to them because they're a private body corporate. They're listed on the done and bad foot register, you know, as a, as a, as a company. So there are 12 members of the Medical Council. And this used to be like a, an organisation that was 4 doctors run by doctors. So it was there to try and I guess protect doctors. And now it's to protect the public, whatever that's supposed to mean.
And they have 12 members and eight of them are chosen by the government of whatever, you know. So they are clearly an agency that are controlling, are controlled by the government to control doctors. Yeah. So it's, there's no regulation of them. I, I don't, I've looked into that of who cheques them there. There is none.
Yeah. I mean, which seems absolutely astonishing on it's own, but especially when you consider that they are able to set up a process by which they may recover costs that that are in effect to their own benefit, either as a as APR exercise or or simply a, a financial one. On on the PR side of it. Obviously you are in New Zealand and across the world a public figure.
You know, you have as you said, as you described previously been on the television in your capacity as then a practising Dr subsequently on on YouTube. You know, you are well known to a lot of people who've looked into this and actually taken the time to try and work out what on earth is going on. How has this been reported elsewhere? Because clearly you know, you have put that out. We're talking about it on Auk column interview.
It seems from perhaps our side of the fence that there's a terrific potential for a backfire effect against the, the Medical Council. I mean it, it seems to be an incredibly stupid thing for them to do because it draws attention to you and to what you're doing. And we'll ask people to ask questions. But has there been a a sort of a messaging attempt from them in so far as this is concerned?
I think what has been really interesting, like you, you say, is the I can only comment on what I've seen in New Zealand in terms of the, because I've had a lot of recently, I've had a huge, a lot of smear attacks by the mainstream media and 90% plus of people in the comment section are supporting me. And, and it was astonishing because most people that I talked to said I've been reading because I don't read them. I can't stand reading mainstream media.
But you know, we'll go through it and tell me that they could find one comment out of 100 and, you know, 200 comments and one's negative or something. So I know that the public are on my side. But also in terms of the Medical Council, there's, there really are an ivory tower that are just in their own land of I don't think they realise what is coming to them in terms of negative consequences just from the public. The messaging is for the
doctors. This is what it's all about is I don't think the Medical Council necessarily care about the public, which is a foolish mistake in my, in my opinion. But they are very worried about doctors doing the same as me and speaking out. And it's, they're really clamping down. So recently there was a case of a Doctor Who spoke out because they were going to bring in McDonald's into a small kind of rural, touristy town.
And a doctor said that they didn't think it was a healthy choice, that they shouldn't be doing this. And the Medical Council were trying to censor this doctor for saying that. And you realise this is just escalating and, and I, and I am, I think the most important message really is for doctors is realising that this is such a slippery slope that it's, I know that it's bad for me, but really it's not bad for me because it doesn't change what I do.
But I can see what is happening to doctors and how they are being very much funnelled into a certain direction and I, I foresee it as something terrible. But what the public say, which I think is great, is that they do not trust doctors and the medical system as such, like they did prior to 2020 because of everything that's happened. That's absolutely right. Sorry.
I realised as we gave, there's one thing I, I haven't allowed you to make clear, which is that even if the fine was only for $5, your point in relation to all of this and your response of course, is that this concerns the principle and not the amount of money. So to just just give your, you know, your view of your response to the demand for money. Yes. So I'm not paying them anything.
And I've had incredibly generous offers of people wanting to do GoFundMe and you know, the crowdfunding sort of things. And, and I know I could probably raise that money easily, but I don't want to, I don't want anyone else's money and I don't want my money to pay money to this corrupt. I mean, they're essentially like a terrorist organisation. They operate out of fear of, of instilling fear in people. And I will not do it. I will not submit to them.
Good for you is what I say and I'm sure absolutely everybody listening and a lot of people will this will be sent very, very far and wide and people will absolutely say good for you and that that is the principle. So anybody listening, don't. Reach under your mattress to pull something out to give Sam to fund a corrupt organisation as part of a corrupt process.
But instead, you know, listen to to the principle of the matter and to what she says about it. And this actually brings us on to the next point, which again, you know, in terms of the law that the the book that's being thrown at you. Of course this concerns or the heart of this is is free speech and they they break from the the charge detail. It's slightly lengthy, but I think it does does bear reading.
In relation to freedom of speech, the Tribune agrees that while the doctor may express an opinion on medical matters, professional standards require her to do so in a balanced way. The doctor's professional obligations constitute the justified limitation on the right to freedom of speech. The justified limitation on the right to freedom of speech.
Health professionals must consider and assess evidence in a balanced manner, providing sufficient evidence from reputable sources, especially essential within the context of a public health response where the potential for harm is greater. I think those words are absolutely extraordinary, and if anybody can read those and think that that seems fine, there is a very, very big problem. What on earth do they mean when they talk about things being
done in a balanced way? Well, it was the same that happened with we back in April 2021 in New Zealand, All doctors. It was a statement, a guidance statement that was put out to all doctors and, and it said when you were giving advice for patients about vaccination, you must promote the benefits of the vaccination. That was it. You couldn't talk about the
negatives, only the benefits. And that we're again, they said in this document that you were expected as a medical practitioner to go and have be vaccinated. So this was a statement that went out to all doctors. So it's very clear what they're signposting here and saying you must do this. Of course, this is absolutely ridiculous. The, the, the balanced reporting. I mean, I can give so many
examples. And I'm sure you know the same in the UK of we're as there is only one source of truth in New Zealand about vaccination and health and what to do with the pandemic. You had to do what the government said or else. And it's just, I don't know, like I say, if they are so out of touch with reality that they think that this is legitimate or that they think that the hubris that they can get away with it. But of course, you know, it's just, there's nothing, it's completely wrong.
Absolutely it is. And I think what, what it does also is it, it, it brings to the fore the, the vehicle that was used in order to have this explosion of messaging from it, whether it be in relation to vaccines or to behaviours or interventions or whatever, whatever they were called restrictions. I mean, you know, the, the list
is very, very long. But all of this was predicated on the infectious disease model in that if it couldn't be demonstrated or at least talked about that one person could make another person. I'll then, frankly, public health is is to a large extent dead in the water.
Now, you referred earlier on to your engagement with the book Virus Mania. The, the, the important point here is that this has LED you into a way of thinking that certainly wasn't covered in any of your medical training, but does have such a great significance in the way that public health, as I say, is sort of propagandised and broadcast
about. So just, I know it's a very, very big area, but in terms of evidence and absence of evidence, just just give us a sort of an update on where this has taken you with regard to the the idea of infectious disease being a spectre that should be feared. That book that changed me, Virus Mania, I ended up by chance becoming a Co author. This is how I think God works is that it gets you into an area that you need to go into. And so I became a Co author of that.
They reached out to me and asked me if I'd interview one of the authors of the book and I did. And then they asked me, would I become a Co author? And subsequently it sparked my interest in really then Mark as well, my husband Mark, I have to give him a plug because he's he's incredibly smart man. And he has been always ahead of me in terms of the Canary in the coal mine of realising things. And and then I catch up and go, Oh my gosh, you're right, Mark about this.
And so we've dived deeply into pandy mix and for different people, it speaks to them and for on different for different reasons. And for me personally, what really convinced me was under looking into the contagion experiments that were done in the Spanish flu era in 1918 and realising that they couldn't make people sick with one of them reportedly most deadly viruses of our time, of our of our history. And so Mark and I have extensively researched numerous viruses and the background of
virology. And what we do is we go to the foundational papers where a virus is said to be the and we unpack it and say, well, is that actually shown scientifically? And most of the time with virology, they don't do the basic scientific requirements for an experiment. So they don't do control studies control, they do essentially torture experiments a lot of the time on animals to prove that they there is a virus. And we've, we've got a wide range of videos on these subjects.
And also Mark's written a a technical paper on biology itself, which is about 28,000 words, which is really accessible to anybody. Just for people that want to understand why we say what we say. It goes through it very logically and explains the science and background behind the fraud of virology.
And it's important for us to why I think this is so important is because most of us do things, especially in the last five years, we've seen that people do things out of fear and fear of, of, of a virus is, is unnecessary. And we, you can live. For me personally, I found it a very empowering aspect to hold onto because it it impacts your life and the way you live and be healthy, how to be healthy, what makes, what causes disease, what and especially infectious
diseases. And you can see in terms of one World government and the New World Order that pandemics are one of the things that they're using to control people. I know there's lots of areas to this, but it's important that people understand that pandemics are not, you know, come out of a lab or come from bats jumping, you know, into, into humans or anything. It's, it's this is a fantasy construct that has no basis in scientific reality. And when you appreciate that, you don't fear germs and
infectious diseases any longer. And for Mark and I, it's we've written another book called the Final Pandemic, which is again about what happened in COVID. And also it goes into lots of other different. It's a like a mini version of Virus Mania for people that are interested in learning more.
Yeah. And I mean, as I said, it is an absolutely enormous topic, but I really would encourage people to, to, to get into that and understand what it is that they haven't been told, I think critically. But the, the sort of mainstream response to that and the, the conditioned response that people are sort of provoked into having is well, but, but people still get ill and people, people get ill at the same time and, and in the same place.
And you've gone back to the sort of earlier part of the 20th century and looked particularly at the work of Ulrich Williams. And you have, you know, I think encapsulated all that. That isn't talked to me. You just talked about a doctor speaking out about against McDonald's and then being shut down. So, so the, the, the other side of it is what are the other, the other influences on our health? Just just talk a bit a bit about that.
And indeed how in sort of modern society, we are just pushed into a position where we're not even supposed to consider any other factors. Yeah, of course. And, and Charles, I, I was very, I was in this camp, you know, I was very orthodox and very much believed all, all of this until I until I looked into it myself. Like I said, it just it's, it's an amazing transformation that I've had and the way we live and, and you can see it with our own.
I just say really quickly, with our family, we're incredibly healthy and people can't look at us, myself, my husband, our children and say that we're not healthy because we are and we have skin in the game with it and that we want to live by what we say. So I think it's not understanding that when you talk to a doctor that they don't know anything about nutrition because it wasn't talked to them at at
medical school. And I know that we were taught about Physiology and how pathways work with metabolism, but you don't know anything about nutrition or what to say to someone of what they should do. And, and it's all the basic things that our grandmothers knew, you know, like having a having a good diet and exercise and sunlight and living in a way, in a positive way where you're around positive people and, and happiness and low stress. And, you know, and so it's all
of the, the terrain. And I also like to explain the idea of terrain theory to people that new to it is that if you, if you're interested in plants, I love gardening with plants. You a plant doesn't just get sick randomly. Something usually happens to it. It's something wrong with the soil, too much water, not enough water, too much light, not enough light wind and the makeup of the plant.
Some are more resilient to others and can last a little bit longer, but eventually the bugs and everything come in to clean up when the the plant is under stress. And that's the same thing that happens to us. We're surrounded by bacteria, microorganisms in US, on us. It's everywhere and we can't, we shouldn't be afraid of it. That it's part of a process of healing that's used.
And so many people talk about this extensively, you know, historically and and also currently of there's a way of looking at life where things don't just happen to us. Viruses don't just come out and jump on us and get us it. Even when you say it like that, it's just, it doesn't make any sense because it doesn't actually happen that way. And what I found over the last few years is learning what
really causes disease. And like you said, there's a, a book by an author that was, he's deceased now, Doctor Erich Williams, that we brought back to understand the terrain and why we get sick and what you can do about it. And that book's called Terrain Therapy that I've also been involved in. Yeah, which I, I should say is, is absolutely fascinating. And I, I definitely encourage people to, to have a look at that.
But I think the, you know, we've talked about free speech and the way in which the medical profession is used as part of the control grid by in effect, subconsciously at least, fear mongering through this paradigm of the idea that people will
make other people ill. And of course, the other thing that's being done very obviously is the creation of very, very sort of stark divide between those that do believe the paradigm and those that are, you know, classified as being well, at least spreaders of harmful misinformation or, or insane for suggesting that the mainstream virological paradigm is not
actually the case. And that, that again seems willful because of course, a lot of the, the terminology, let's, let's say immunity, you know, a weaker Organism will of course be susceptible. It's just that the description of the mainstream is susceptible to something that's being passed from somebody else. Now you have a A2 way sort of St as it were, with your audience. Are you, are you getting the sense that there is a greater degree of knowledge being built
up? I mean, obviously amongst those that do follow you, but but are you finding people who are perhaps less likely to have been exposed to such thoughts now, you know, shifting in their in their beliefs is is there a ripple effect to all of this? Absolutely. And I think what I've definitely witnessed, I mean even since 2020, obviously the fear levels have dropped massively.
And I think that's really important because people are far more likely to be open to things when they're not fearful to hearing it, you know, for the first time. And what I found fascinating is just in in in some ways it's
been cruel and horrid as well. But as most people that you talk to know someone that has been vaccine injured, at least this is the way it is in New Zealand. And so you can more easily talk to people about things or at least suggest things and, and they're open to it. And I think what I really find an impact, well, just positive, I guess, is to see people, the public are really onto it and really well educated and far more than I think the authorities give them any credit
for. You know, like I think it's this, that this, this is what was always thrown at me was that my audience are health illiterate and I'm misleading them because they're illiterate. And I thought, oh, my gosh, if only they knew how clever the people are that I, I feel privileged that they will come and listen to me, you know, versus others. But it's, yeah, I definitely have seen a shift in the at least the last five years. And I think there are so many areas that you can tap into with
people. It doesn't, it's not necessarily virology. I, I, like I say, I, I don't find it extremely interesting or anything. It's just, it's a very boring subject. But it's been used to control us. And so I, I want to be an expert in this area. So I know I will not be controlled. Yeah. But that's the critical bit. You know, this is designed very specifically and wielded as a tool of creating fear with which to create fear. And that clearly has a detrimental effect on your
mental state. But I would say also your your physical state that that inextricably linked. There will be a percentage of people listening to this for whom a lot of these concepts are new or at least problematic because like all of us, like you, particularly having been in the medical profession where this was stated as absolute rigid fact and there was there was no debate about it at all.
To go on that path of of sort of eliminating fear from your life, but not having to spend the next 40 years reading into the literature. What sort of steps would you recommend to people to start to get their lives on the right track and and to, you know, to start to push that fear away? It's a really good question. A person wrote to me recently and I thought was really insightful is that they said with anything with health, you have to have confidence in what
you're doing. And that a lot of this comes down to your own testing and experimenting with yourself and getting confidence with that. And I've, that has definitely been the case for myself where what I used to believe that I'd need to take antibiotics for in a certain situation, I would myself not do that and see what would happen to me. And realising having confidence in that process that you are
able to heal yourself. And then, you know, moving along next time doing something else a little bit more. And I think it is seriously, I always suggest to people that you need to know everything that you're putting in your body. And that's where your water comes from, where your food comes from. What is it, what are you eating? I, we're not very prescriptive with a certain diet, but it's just knowing what is in it, what looking at the ingredients on
packets and things like that. Just thinking about it, opening your mind and being in the moment for a second rather than passively doing things like think about it where you where you're getting these things from. And I also encourage people to just test it with, you know, say you're having your grandkids over or something and they're sick. Just see what happens. Just see, are you going to get sick? A lot of it is our own conditioning that we think we're
going to get sick. We're being around them and sick children or whatever. And I know this myself with my own, with my own kids over this journey of saying I'm not fearful of when a child has a runny nose or, you know, that I might get sick. And part of it is actually just having faith that we are so much more robust than we are told. And yeah. And another thing I think that's always really important and people identify this with us
immediately is knowing why. Why do the big Pharma and things do this? It's because there's billions, if not trillions of dollars involved. And this is involved with from the whole shabam from diagnosis testing, you know, the all these different tests that people undergo now and through to treatments and vaccines and you know, all the rest of it. It's realising follow the money of where this goes and that we don't need all the stuff to be
healthy. It's. We don't actually need that system and. If you want to start on this journey, look into it yourself. Don't just take my word for it, look into it and experiment with yourself and and see you know and you'll get more confidence with time. Yeah. I mean, I think that's such a, it's such a sound message. And again, you know, you, you refer back to the Pharmaceutical industry and of course, absolutely a gigantic racket and there is money to be made at every turn.
But a lot of that is done by convincing people that the cause and effect is as they say it is. So you've just spoken about a runny nose, which of course to the majority of people is to, is considered to be the illness itself rather than the expression of your body trying to deal with its current situation. So you take the drug and then you believe that that is what has made you better.
So I think we live in a culture where we expect there to be a quick fix because we've taken something, but the quick fix is is not really the the right way to be thinking about anything, I don't think. Absolutely. I, I couldn't agree with you more. It's not. And I think you deprive yourself of actually what true health is by thinking along those lines. It's yeah, it I mean, it's a huge area to unpack, but I think it's having inner confidence of knowing that you don't need.
This is a sick system that we're dealing with. It's not a health system and there's no incentive for them to help you. It's always about making you on the conveyor belt as part of that sick system. And we're conditioned from as soon as we're born, you know, born in a hospital and died in a hospital. And it, it's sad, but all these traditions that have been lost of how to be well. And they're all the old stuff, you know, the old school things that like our grand.
Well, my grandma used to say to me. And I used to think, oh, yeah, do you really, you know, is that really true? And now I sort of look back and think, Oh my gosh, I just, I wish I'd had a bit more time to talk to her about that. Well, I think this is it. You know, we're going to need to sort of wrap up quite soon, but but talking to people is of course the most important aspect of all of this and, and wherever possible in person.
But it's very hard when one thinks like you do and you, you have had that moment of discovering that things are not as you've been told that they were. It's very hard to consider being anything other than evangelical about it. And of course that can have a terrifically detrimental effect because you can appear heavy handed if you're trying to convince people that in effect
you're right and they're wrong. If I'm not suggesting there is a sort of magic bullet, but how would you recommend sort of going about beginning to communicate with people about this sort of thing? I, I'm very much, I don't try and force things on people. I, I find that if people, if people want to find me looking for the answers, that they'll find me. And I don't need to, I don't need to do any of the work. Yeah. So I, I'm always tentative because I know that it splits
families apart. We've all seen this. It's been hideous of just how how much the governments have split us into groups and so that we can't even talk to each other any longer. I, I think that it really comes down to the person themselves. And I just, I try and have a rapport with someone and, you know, just make little suggestions of what, what do you think about it? What, you know, does that make sense to you sort of thing? And if it makes sense to them, then I won't go any further.
But if they have questions and things, I'm like, well, just, you know, just keep sort of chipping away. And and I'm still to this day, Charles, like it's amazing the people that have only just found our work. And it blows me away that they, you know, like I had a person that was part of a head polio from when they were young and had been part of a polio organisation. And they recently found us and realised that what had happened was, you know, she'd been poisoned with DDT when she was
younger. And for most of her life she'd believed that this was a virus. And, and it was someone smearing of me like in the same group and thought, well, this woman sounds like really bad. So I need to look and see what she's saying. So, you know, it's amazing how people will will find you that need to find you and I, I just think you've got to scratch that itch and keep looking.
Absolutely it, it really is. And I know a lot of people will want to do exactly this and to find where they can follow what you are doing, what you have been doing. So just just tell us where. I mean, there is an absolute enormous trove of material that you have produced and I know people want to go towards it. Where? Where should people go to find more about what you're doing?
Yeah, well, I have my own website which is probably the most reliable and accurate of everything, which is Doctor DRI. Won't give that up yet. Sam Bailey BAIL ey.com and if you follow on sub stack, we have AI have a sub stack there as well. And so it's doctor Sam bailey.substack.com and I'm on various like on YouTube. If you look at my name, you'll probably find me and various other, but they're sort of smaller, you know, platforms
like Odyssey and things. But I think for most of the work, if you can go to the website and most of our content is available for free. We, we, we put the, the information out to the public because we think it's really important to, for people to learn and to know that it's not all what we're told. And there is another way to
health. Absolutely, yeah, there, there certainly is. And, and all of what Sam just said and, and other things that have been referenced in the interview will be put into the notes. So no need to get the pencil and paper out to scribble that down. It will, it will be written down in the notes. Now Sam Bailey, we have barely scratched the surface. We've covered a huge amount of ground nonetheless. And you are not going to be paying any corrupt organisations
any money at all. So the audience have an awful lot to think about as they, as they do go away in consideration of what you've said. But thank you so much for joining me. And I do hope you will come back and give us an update at some point in the future. Sam Bailey, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Charles. It's been such a pleasure.