Hudson River Radio dot com. This is Travis Walton and you are listening to UFO Headquarters. Beutiful Headquarters in a happy September to everybody listening to UFO Headquarters on Hudson River Radio. And thank you to Travis Walton as always my favorite introduction ever. Linda, And how are you tonight? I'm good. How are you doing? I'm hanging in there. I can't complain all right, well, you know I can always complain, but I won't tonight. But
before we start, I want to give a shout out. If he's listening, Robert Gibson in Nanaimo. I hope I said that right Nanaimo, British Columbia sent a wonderful letter. And we really do appreciate people who get in touch and hard to believe people around the world are listening to us. How did that happen, Mike, I don't know, but yeah, thank you, you know, for taking the time to write to us. And we do appreciate hearing from people and seeing how we interact with different parts of the
world here. It's kind of um, kind of humbling, it is. It is, yeah, most appreciated. We are getting into a remarkable case. I think one of the best in all of uphology, abducted on the Ala Gash. But first, m sadly for those of you who listened to one of our earliest shows with Dennis Sant two years ago. Dennis, I was stunned to find out on August twenty sixth he passed away completely unexpected.
I was honestly just stunned and heartbroken. He was the sweetest guy. He You may have seen him on Unsolved Mysteries because he was one of the first and best witnesses to the UFO wave of the eighties. His sighting, his major sighting was on March seventeenth, nineteen eighty three. I could go I could rehash all that, but go back in the archives on Hudson River Radio or you know wherever you get your podcast, as they say, and just
the the title of that show is Dennis Sant and it's worth listening. UM. I was wonderful to see him over the years, keep saying I'm going to write a book. I'm going to write a book, and then finally Dennis writes your book, and he finally out his book, which we talked about. UM. The other side of connecting the cosmic Dots a personal journey of awareness, realization, and acceptance. And I just want to read these lines from his obituary, which really sums of it up. Dennis loved family
and friends. If you met Dennis as a stranger, you left with a new friend. To know him was to love him. And absolutely, I met Dennis many years ago when I first started doing research for the for the first UFO book, and he was just a kindred spirit. We hit it off right away, and I walked into his office as a stranger and walked out as as lifelong friends. So I was I was honored to have a friend like that. So he will be sadly and sorely missed. Yeah,
definitely. He was a big part of the Hudson Valley, not just the UFO community so to speak, but the Hudson Valley itself, and was a great guest. Again, if you haven't listened to that episode, it's just we could have talked to Dennis for hours at night. It really wasn't even an interview, it was just a conversation. He's but my interaction with him
was limited. But again, like you said, just talking to him for a few minutes, you feel like you've known him your whole life, so he definitely has someone who left an impact, absolutely, and my condolences to his widow Kathy is I believe five kids, nineteen grandkids. I may be behind a grand kid or two there, but he was all about family and friends and a lot of people will miss him. So why don't we, Brian take our first break and come back with Abducted on the Allagash Hudson River
Radio dot Com. Hey, Von, do you know what Tony the Rooster is telling you? Hey? Also, of course I do. That's right. Tony wants you to join us for Getting Dirty on Hudson River Radio dot Com. You'll learn all about gardening, local farming, and farmers and why it's cool to Get Dirty journal us because it's awesome. Le also subscribe to Getting Dirty on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Linda Zimmerman. Join Michael Warden in me for Murder in the
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Spotify, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hudson Radio dot Com a subsidiary of Glacier Entertainment all LC blasting the competition in New York's Hudson Valley. And we are back in Linda. I think, um, right before the break, you talked about Dennis, and I think it's only appropriate that we we dedicate tonight's show in his honor, his memory and his legacy and the Hudson Valley UFO community research and bringing it, bringing it out into
the public. So this is for you, Dennis, and we know you're listening. Yeah. Absolutely, that's that's Greg. Yeah, definitely vital piece who really helped establish the Hudson Valley wave and document it. So Um, but we have another kid here which is just is just incredible. I will briefly flash my notes here. It's it's the notes are horrific. I'm all
over the place, but I wanted to. When you have the opportunity to have actual quotes from the witnesses rather than me recounting it, you can't beat the witness's words. So we are going back to nineteen seventy six in Maine and four friends, twins identical twins you can relate to that Mike right, Jack and Jim Wiener, their friend Chuck Rack and Charlie Folts. They were all students together at an art school in Massachusetts, and they decided, let's
take a trip into the Alagash Wilderness of Maine. Haven't been to the Alagash or Mount Catodden or anything. I haven't been that. I've I've passed the sign for it, and I've seen Mount Catodon in the distance. Mount Cataden is, i think, the highest point in Maine and the start of the
Appalachian Trail. And when they say wilderness, it's it's wilderness. And you can imagine back in seventy six, I was looking at some of the pictures when I was doing the research, and it still looks like like when you say that, literally the middle of nowhere, that's what it looks like. I mean, I give them credit for even going out into a wilderness like that. Yeah, you don't drive your car to the parking lot and get
out in Oh, here's the wilderness. You take a bush plane and canoes and you you canoe from lake to lake and when you can't cross from lake to lake, you portage and for you folks, for people who don't know what, you pick up your canoe in gear and you walk it to the next lake, which they had to do. Well, we'll get into that. So it was August twenty sixth and they were going to be spending seventeen
days. That's that's a nice trip. And they started by climbing. They hiked up Mount Kataden and then they took the they strapped canoes to the pontoons of the plane that was flying them in and they flew in with all their provisions. So you can imagine camping, hiking, kayak canoeing with seventeen days of provisions everything you need. Um, that's not a little daypack. That is This isn't the trip on a whim. This is something that has to be and you have to be in shape. This is you know, this
is hard. You could I used to kayak every single day and I can't imagine doing it all day for seventeen days, so you need to be in really good shape. But they were. They're all young guys, good good shape. So um. On the second night on Chamberlain Lake, they see something strange and Jim, who's one of the twins, his comment was that they're they're on the they're in the camp and they look out and they see this light. He says, it was just floating above the treetops, didn't
seem to be moving in any direction. And I looked at it through the binoculars for maybe fifteen thirty seconds and it suddenly just winked out from the outside edges inward like a iris and a camera. That's my comment, but he had also said that not your typical light in the sky to do that. He said, I mean it literally just went whoop like that and it was gone. There was something about this thing that left me with an odd feeling that wasn't quite right, but I didn't dwell on it. Yeah, I'd
say that's not quite right. Yeah, I'd be a little nervous at this point. Yes, you're in the middle of nowhere. They probably the last thing they're thinking on this trip is UFOs. You know, they weren't. They weren't there for that. So they all saw this light and just had a strange feeling. But next day they got up and went out and were going about their business. And they spent the next day trying to I love this, trying to go up stream to Alagash Lake. But the current coming
down. If you've ever tried to paddle upstream, are up again. I've been out on the lake and on oceans where there's a wind or a current and you were paddling your heart out and the scenery is not moving on shore because you're you're just lucky to keep keep up. So after exhausting themselves all day, they gave up and here we go. They portaged a half a mile. What they did, these were big canoes. They had their provisions in them, and they had like these carrying sticks. Two and the two
guys in the front, two guys in the back carry the canoe. One of the canoes and provisions half mile, come the half mile back, get the other canoe. Right. Yeah, this yeah, this is not a club med vacation. It's a lot of work. I can only imagine having to pick your canoe up loaded with everything, carry it, put it there and go back and get your other one again. That's a it's not a vacation, but it's a it's an adventure for sure. It's an adventure.
And so the fourth day they finally they get onto Eagle Lake. So that's the important thing for those who are Google mapping this as we go along. Eagle Lake is very important. They decide they get there kind of late in the day and they set up camp, and they decide to do some night fishing. It's very cool being on a boat in a lake or something on the water at night. It's very strange feeling. So you need to find your way back to camp. It's not like this was the jelly Stone campground
and there was a big lighted bear to welcome you. You know too. Sure, So they built a big bonfire and big logs. They didn't know how long they'd be out there, so they figured this fire would burn three two, three four hours pro at least three hours. So this is an important part of the story of the big bonfire. So they shove off. They just taking one canoe. Charlie's in the front with a paddle, Chuck's in the rear with a paddle, and then the twins are just sitting in
the middle. They apparently weren't the greatest canoeists, so the other guys had the paddle and chuck comments. I had a feeling there was someone staring at me from behind me, which is not good when you're out on a very dark lake. I turned over my right shoulder and I saw this large, round globe of light that looked exactly like what we had seen two nights previously. It was white, red, green, a liquid kind of melding motion. Oh what was this? Following them? It's I'm just trying to imagine.
You've ever been in the woods at night, or on a lake at night when it's pitch dark. It's already unnerving to some extent. Can you imagine being out there and seeing this? Yes, where do you go? You're on a canoe in the middle of the lake in the dark, right, and then you realize, oh, wait a minute, this is the same thing we saw two days ago. Like, I'm sure that that just increased their anxiety. Jim commented. It had this roiling effect to it,
like a miniature son, very very bright. It lit the tree tops up like daylight and was absolutely silent. We've certainly heard that before. Yes, but at least if you're on land, you can run, right, so Chuck commented. After looking at it for what seemed like several moments, we decided to signal this thing. That's when Charlie picked up the flashlight and squeezed off a message, s O s now. We had a I would recommend listeners if you haven't listened to all our shows. We did a show called
be Careful what You ask for. People think, oh, cool, maybe this is an UFO. Let me flash my flashlight at it. Not always good results. No, So Charlie is he's got his hand cupped over the flashlight and move, you know, moving it off and back to Morse code SOS, which that is not smart in itself. If it was a helicopter or a plane, you don't want to just arbitrarily. SOS means you know you are in trouble. But I guess that's the only thing I was gonna
say. It's probably the one Morris code that everybody knows, you know, dot dot dot, you know, the right, So yeah, it's probably popped in his head like oh hey, you know right. So at first, this this object reacted immediately by shining down a beam at light of light and they thought at first, this is the coolest thing in the world. Um. And then Charlie said, until the light started coming towards us, my curiosity was satisfied, and I just dropped the flashlight. The only thought
in my mind was get too sure and not look back. So again, these four guys are in the canoe. This craft responds instantly to him flashing a light by suddenly turning on a beam of light and rushing toward them. Not a good idea. Yeah, so they I don't know if they had to turn around, but Charlie and Chuck at each end with the paddles, are paddling as fast as they can toward the bonfire because they see the blazing bonfire. Thank god they had the presence of mind to build it. And
then the twins are in the middle. They have no paddle, but they're so freaked out they're using their hands. So you can picture these four terrified guys doing whatever they can to paddle towards shore. And at this point, I think we'll take our second break because there's a lot to unpack after this.
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the world. Just shoot an email to info at Hudson River Radio dot com and we'll get you started. That's Info at Hudson River Radio dot com. Subscribe to the Angel Quest Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Hudson River Radio dot com. We are back and we are in the Alagash Wilderness and Maine with the four adventurers who have just had this very unnerving encounter out on a lake. And it just gets more bizarre from here. Like you said, Linda, this is
one of the most compelling cases. I remember when this was big in the news. So yeah, how recent. I mean, I'm up there, but you know I remember from not the seventies. Well, well, well we'll get to you probably remember the nineties when okay, okay, yes, I know you had to qualify that. Um So, so here are these four men frantically paddling using hands and paddles to get back to shore, and Jim commented, I remember looking over my shoulder trying to keep an eye on
this object as it was coming up behind us. It was getting very close. It was almost on top of us at this point. I remember thinking, we are not going to outrun this thing, and that had to be That just gives me a chill saying that, thinking at that moment, I don't know what it's going to do, but it's almost on top of us,
and that light this is this is like so bizarre. The light they described as not not just a beam of light that scatters, It was a concentrated they said, it was like a glass tube, almost like a blue neon light in this solid It seemed, well, you know, like a like a glass tube that was just conducting this light coming closer and closer to
beaming on them as this craft is overhead. At this point, something happens, because the next thing they know, Jack, Jim and Charlie are standing on the shore and the canoe is on the shore with Chuck sitting in it, and they're thinking this bit, how did we get They don't remember getting to shore. They think twenty minutes has passed, but that raging bonfire that was going to last at least three hours was burned down to little embers.
Oh, once again, that is an amazing detail and very important detail. Yes, And Charlie looks at his watch and acknowledges that no, it's not twenty minutes, but three hours has passed. But they don't seem to register. They seem a bit in the days. They seem completely exhausted, and Charlie says, well, should I build the fire back up? And now, no, no, no, let's just let's just go to sleep. They were just so bone tired, and it didn't it didn't sink in,
where have we been the last three hours? How did we get to shore? It's just like, I don't know if it was shock or just their memories already starting to be kind of erased. And the next morning they get up and they just start going about their business. Jack commented, the unusual thing is that we didn't stay We didn't stay up for hours and discuss this thing, which what you'd think four young guys on a camping trip would do.
We just seemed very fatigued and wanted to go to bed. The next morning, we got up, got our camp together, and paddled to the next camp site. So this is another thing we see time and time again. The most remarkable thing that's ever happened to you in your life happens, and it's like, okay, all right, well I think I'll go home now and watch the TV and go to bed. Very consistent. Yes, yes, so they didn't think about it, and and a couple other comments.
When they were on shore, the craft was right there, forty feet away, and Jim said, I remember thinking I could pick up a stone and bounce it off the side of this thing right away. That's how close it is. Then all of a sudden, it just streaked away, very very fast, and with a few sets within a few seconds, like a star. It was just another light in the sky. And Chuck commented, everybody seemed calm and relax, no no panic. And Charlie even tried the
light trick. Even after all that he tried because now he thought, oh, I'm safe on shore. Nothing's happened. He tries signaling the light again. No response. It was done with them, I think, is which is good for them. You know. The first time wasn't a good idea, right right, right, So the next day they wanted to tell someone, so they saw a park ranger and they report they will file a report with this park ranger who didn't seem the least bit interested and figured, four
young guys, what are they smoking? What are they drinking? And he tells them, well, what they probably saw were just searchlights from a hardware store opening in Milanoket. Of course, in Maine that would be pronounced hodware Sta. And this hordware Sta happened to be seventy five miles away on the other side of the mountain. So just ridiculous, just ridiculous. But I
found a little side note about that particular ranger. Two years later he quit because he had a very similar sighting, but at the time he was, of course quite skeptical. So they tried telling a few more rangers and no one. No one was interested. So they finished out the next ten days of their trip, went home, told some family and friends, got the same response, Yeah, okay, you know what were you guys on. Nope, nobody believed them. So after a while they just stopped talking.
And I see this, hundreds and hundreds of times people have this incredible experience, life altering experience and nobody believes them, and they just keep it bottled up and don't want to talk to anybody. So years and years pass, they remember what they remembered this light somehow getting to shore again, nothing is
connecting. So we go about ten or twelve years later, and and Jack says, excuse, excuse me, not Jack, Yes, Jack, trying to keep all these I'm confusing the twins even without seeing them, they are remarkably alike. But Jack said, I was starting to have nightmares, really terrible nightmares that I could not explain. I found myself in a very brightly lit room. I had no idea where I was or why I was there.
To my left, I could see my brother Jim, Chuck Rack and Charlie Folts sitting on some type of bench and they were they were all naked. I was wondering why they weren't helping me, because I felt like I was in danger. And while I'm trying to figure this out, I noticed this figure or dark shadowy type figure emerging from this light, the bright light in front of me. I would wake up sweating and breathing heavily, and just in a state of terror and shock. So that's not a good recurring
nightmare to have. That sounds like post traumatic stress disorder. Absolutely, And he's not telling anybody about this. Turns out, as you know, Mike, identical twins often share a lot of things we can't explain. Yes, well, guess who was having identical nightmares the same time twelve years later.
And so his twins said, there were his dreams. There were always certain elements of the dream that were the same, some type of creature, being helpless, being violated, was a feeling I often woke up with and again a very common theme. People taken violated. They have vague recollections, but developed newphobias, are afraid to go out, their social interactions change. I believe it was Jim who started. Yes, Jim started padlocking his bedroom doors
and windows even on hot days. And this is without fully recollecting. But he was so afraid, particularly at night, like you said, post post traumatic stress. And the dreams started getting more and more real. And what was weird with the both of them? They both in their dreams had Charlie Faults and Chuck Rack. Now the only time all four of them were ever together was on this camping trip. So you were a detective, right,
you start putting two and two together. Here, what's the common denominator If we're both having these stam exact dreams with the same exact four of us. The only thing the common denominator is this trip twelve years earlier up in Ali Gash, So it's got to be connected. They knew they had this experience of the light, so right with this light they were paddling all their might to get away for and thought they had but probably not. So they decide
to seek help and Jim gets in touch with Ray Fowler. You hardcore uphologists will immediately say, oh, yeah, Ray Fowler. At the time and still now, he was a famous UFO researcher and author. In nineteen seventy nine he had written The Andreas An Affair, which is a another remarkable case. He ends up writing a book about this in the nineties, but early
nineties, I think it came out. But it turns out that Fowler in two thousand and two decided to write his autobiography and it was called UFO Testament, Anatomy of an Abductee, where he finally admits, yeah, I had a lot of researchers either subconsciously or consciously get into this because of their own experiences. So Fowler thinks that they should have hypnotic regression, which can be a disaster if you have the wrong person. Um, it can be a
disaster if you really shouldn't remember, right. So we've we've talked about this in the past. Oh yeah, absolutely, And I like that when when Feller sets this up, he wants to make sure that as they are regressed, they don't have the opportunity to talk to one another, so that it's independent, so that it's not like I'm undergoing it and then I have a chance to talk to you about it, and then you're undergoing it. He
seems to try to control for that level of potential influence. So at least it's the testimony coming out of the actual hypnosis there, you know, session itself. So I like that. Yeah, that's yeah, that's an excellent point. It's not like Jim is being regressed and his brothers sitting there watching it just then oh, yeah, what he said, right, Because then you can always then at least say there's a there's doubt, oh well he
could have heard it. But if you at least control for that, it takes one more piece of criticism away from the case and bolsters your credibility a little bit. Yeah, I've I've done that with multiple witnesses, where you know, doing a sketch, go into separate rooms, do your sketch, don't you know, and then come back and show me. And you do that also with interviews, don't interview everybody at the same time, and police
work one on one, detective work on don't same thing. You know, you don't interview every witness because in front of one another I mean that's again you you want to hear what someone saw or heard or you know, that's that's important, not to have that influenced. You know, you want to get that story firsthand before it's been contaminated, so to speak. Yeah, you do, you mean you don't get all the suspects into one room.
Nope, no, no, Yeah. So the um Fowler suggests, uh, supposedly a very credible hypnotist, Tony Constantino, And I won't go I mean, I can go into great detail. We'll go into some detail, but basically they all remember the same thing. And I'll read some of their quotes, but the basic story all four recall and as you pointed out, Mike, independently without talking to one another. Um, they that glass tube, that Neon glass tube apparently sucked them right out of the canoe. And
uh, Charlie did an excellent uh picture of that. They did a lot as being artists, they did a lot of artwork and sketches. If if you saw the um the post on announcing tonight's show, one of Charlie's pictures of them being sucked up into this craft. So they went on board a craft, forced to take off all their clothes, undergo frightening and invasive medical procedures by four human sized figures which I don't remember whether it was Jim or
Jack described as being like a bug. And again, if you look up Alagash abduction, look up images, you can see these frightening bug like creatures with big Amini's like right in their right in their faces. So let me let me read some of their comments. These are actual excerpts from the actual sessions, so these are in their word words. Jim is so he's under hypnosis. He's saying they're there, they don't know what to do. I think they think I'm going to come after them. I feel like I want
to. I feel like I want to the first one that comes near me, I'm going to throttle him. I don't like these things. I don't care where they came come from. They shouldn't be doing this to people. So an artist, no background in this, You're regressed. This is an interesting few lines to come up with. Yeah, and that's something that I would think people would be inclined to make up. I want to throttle him, Yeah, you don't. You don't usually hear people make that type of
detail up. If they're gonna, you know, exaggerate something right. That to me is really indicative of what happened. Um Jack in his session says, they're right there. Their face is right in my face. I don't know why. I don't want to know. I don't want to know what they want. They're saying things in my head. They're saying things. Don't be afraid. They say, do what we say. Just do what we say. And that's another thing we hear over not they don't hear them physically,
hear them talking in a voice. It's like a message in their head. Basically, you know you're stuck. Just stay there. Just the feeling of helplessness they all expressed it's awful. Charlie said, you know, being on board, it's like a doctor's office. I get that. It's cold, like a doctor's office is cold. They put the panel over your chest. Then they scrape your arms, your chest, your legs, your thighs. We shouldn't be here. I just I just keep thinking I want to
be back in the canoe. Yeah. Yeah, And then they did things a lot more violating than that, and then Chuck says, I cease. He's saying he sees as he remembers seeing Charlie on the table. I see some sort of device on him. They've got this looks like a silvery it looks like it's got curves. It's almost like like it sucks something. He's got his head tipped way back. It's almost like he's in pain where we can't help him. All we can do is watch. So four men,
as you said, different times different. You know, nobody compares notes all pretty frighteningly horrifyingly similar. Yeah, and um, and I think it's important to add the four men undertook polygraph examinations, and the results of those examinations were that they were telling the truth. So I mean, whether they believed it happened, if it didn't happen, they certainly believed it did, right, So that says a lot. Again, they're independent, they're passing polygraphs.
You know, you start getting that preponderance of the evidence building up here. And also they the Fowler, as I mentioned, wrote a book about the Allagash abductions. Good luck getting one. It's like a fortune to try to buy a copy. Now it's I think it's out of print. May have been reprinted. I'll have to check. But their story was on Unsolved Mysteries. They were even on Joan Rivers show. I don't even remember Joan Rivers had to show, and I'm glad I don't remember that. But Jim,
Jack and Charlie definitely changed their focus. Jack was, you know, was into all this artwork. He suddenly became obsessed with mathematics and hard science, particularly geometry, and went into the space industry. Very strange for someone who had dedicated their life to artwork. Jim, you know, he didn't give up artwork, but everything became mathematical, geometric. Jim suddenly became with
ancient temples and the information they might contain. Okay, you know, normally you go on a canoeing trip in Maine, you don't refocus your career to age or your interests to ancient temples. And Charlie became a medical artist to a successful career reproducing artwork for medical colleges and things things like that. So it changed them and we can go you know, we could talk for hours on this, but they had an experience. They didn't remember it at the
time. They all start to remember at the same time. They get regressed independently remember frighteningly similar situations, as you say, pass a polygraph and I if you have any doubts about this case, there's interviews available on YouTube. Check them out. Listen to how they talk, how they say it, what they have to say. There's a lot of information on this and they just they just seem credible. And the last thing I want want to mention,
I know you want to bring up something else. Charlie just concluded, you know, his statements about the whole case, saying this happened. If you believe it, that's all right. If you don't believe it, I don't care. I don't care because it did. It did happen. So you know, this is a crazy field and you have people who will try to tear you down. You have people who will like worship you as a demigod because you had these experiences. So you know, he has the proper
attitude. It happened. I've told my story, and so what what addendum do you have, Mike, Well, I'll just I just want to add to your excuse me. You know, the field is sort of like that. You know we think of the Bell curve, Well, the extremes. You have the extreme hardcore believers that you could tell them anything you experience and they're going to believe it. Yeah, it's that giant ants came down from Venus and took you up to their planet, and like you said, you're
going to be a demigod. You have the people at the other end who, no matter what the story, if the evidence, the credible witnesses are going to dismiss it. It's the people in the middle, the researchers in that middle looking for the truth that are that's so important and stories like this that do fall into that. And you know, back in twenty sixteen, it was Chuck Rack who sort of came out and made claims that it was all made up, that they had seen lights, he didn't discount that,
but that the abduction part was all made up. He alleged that there might have been some recreational drug use going on, which the other three men denied, and you know, the informations out there if people really want to read about it. I don't want to go into the personality issues, but there was a lot of allegations made on both sides. But it seems that maybe
Chuck had some issues and got sort of ostracized from UFO community. Wasn't invited back to conferences, wasn't invited back to speak and things like that, whereas the other three men were. So I think there could have been an issue of jealousy. He certainly would have a reason to come out and make some claims that the whole story was made up. He claims it was to make money. I don't know how much money they really did make off of Yeah,
they didn't. That's just it. You know, anybody, let me tell everybody right now, you do not get in this field for the money, huge, dude. Do it because you have a passion for the topic. You're not going to get rich on UFO books and lectures. Yeah. And when I was I was reading, I really was interested in what Chuck
had to say. Chuck rack and you know, he tried to claim the bonfire, which is so important because of the lost time that oh you know, we really just used small pieces of wood so that it would have burned. But yet, like you said, you know, they're going out on a canoe at night. This is their only landmark. They are in the middle of the wilderness. There is nothing if they don't have that fire to
get back to their campsite. They're not getting back to their campsite. They're spending the night in a canoe, and they better hope the next day they can figure out where their campsite was. So you know, the other men said, no, we used I think one described them as being ten and a half inch round logs to guarantee that this fire would continue to burn so that they could see it as a beacon. That's consistent, that makes sense.
The other thing is just from a former police point of view, detective point of view, is it is very hard for one person to lie and keep their story straight. It is much harder for two, three or four people to lie and keep their story straight, all on the same story. That's very difficult. And Brian are in the control room there can tell you that's. You know, when people lie, they usually forget little details,
they change things because it's this is a very detailed story. It's hard to remember everything, and you're certainly not getting three to four people to remember every lie. It's not to me, that's just not plausible. One person, sure, they can make up a story, and they can, you know, swear by anything. You know, just don't stand next on the bolt of lightning will come down. But you know, but for four people to do that, and even if there is a falling out, I really believe
that Chuck probably did have the same experiences. It's just it's a personality issue. And again I encourage people to go online. There's a lot of resources they can read about it. There's videos about it. You can find the Unsolved Mysteries. Um, I couldn't find the Joan Rivers interview. Oh too bad. Look, it's got to be out there. I thought that'd be entertaining at least. Sure. Um, but I do remember when it was
on Unsolved Mysteries, so I do remember watching that. But again, I encourage people to read about it. I think I tried looking for the books on Amazon, and like you said, whatever's on there were expensive. But I didn't spend a lot of time digging, but they were yea more than I was going to pay. Yeah, and you can go you can go to like I said, YouTube or other resources and watch there. They've done a lot of interviews. Listen to them in their own words and make up
your own mind. I'm not telling anybody, oh my god, they got abducted, but boy, they telled a compelling story and like you said four of them, and it's just very consistent with what so many people have experienced over the years. So planning a canoe trip anytime soon, I'm gonna scrap any idea of buying a canoe. I was gonna buy a kayak. I think I'm scrapping that idea. Um yeah, I just think. Um I'm trying to I've been out on a lake at night in a boat when it's
dark and it's again it's unnerving. Can you imagine being trapped out there, having this this encounter. You have nowhere to go, Like you said earlier, you're on land. You could try to run. You may not get away, but at least you have that sense of control, have an option. You're in a canoe. Was it a two feet wide? Where are you gonna go? You're gonna run from one end of the canoe to the other. It's gonna look like a cartoon. You know, You're you're stuck
there, You're stuck. And that had to be terrifying because even if they didn't remember that at the time, that those dreams what they're coming back. I mean that that helplessness, that sense of being victimized and being violated I
mean I can't imagine, Yeah, I really can't. And then to go about the rest of the trip, you know, and yeah again, how often, Like we talked about a lot of these people that have had encounters that contact ease, it's this big life altering experience, but yet initially it's
like, okay, well, life just going on. Yeah. I heard a witness on Martin Willis's podcast UFO, and he said they were on some highway in Massachusetts not all that long ago, and this massive craft hovering over the highway, and this whole long line of cars saw it and just again the most remarkable thing they'd ever seen in their life. And the craft goes away and people start driving away like nothing happened, but all of them,
I don't remember how many people. It was many many people. They all, for some reason all pulled off at the next exit and went, I think to friendlies to get ice cream. Who was like all the way it was, nobody talked to anybody, but like all these people in all these cars suddenly pull off and go get ice cream, Like, oh, did you happen to see that, didn't you? And yes, yeah, yeah, we just saw this massive alien craft hovering over all boy, I could
go from me and Chip. Yeah. So strange things happen in in these cases. That's I think the one thing we can be certain of. Um, things out of the ordinary and uncharacteristic go on, Yes, absolutely, um and what we always say, keep your eyes to the sky. You never know, you know, Yes, just I don't want to go. I don't want to go up on their ship. Taken, leave me alone. A lot a great specimen to begin with you. Okay, it's younger and much better shape than me. Yeah, we should wear t shirts with
arrows take. Yeah, they don't want me. In fact, I think I was unabducted, actually unabducted. You were thrown back, Yeah, threw me back, catch and release, get out of here. Ah. So that is our Alagash case. We have lots of more interesting cases to cover and again love getting letters, emails, whatever, people have suggestions, let us know. So Mike take us out in your own inimitable style. Yeah. So again, thank you everybody for joining us on Hudson River Radio.
We had many people on our stream chat following along, so thank you on Twitch. Thank you Brian and the control room and everybody else out there. Whether you're in the Hudson Valley or somewhere beyond. Thank you for joining us, and remember keep your eyes to the sky. Hudson River Radio dot com a favorite among shut ins and dogs.