Hey everybody.
By you guys, we are two Jersey Jays and Jackie Goldschneider.
I'm Den Fessler.
We're so excited today we have one of my favorite people on as our guest, but we have.
A lot to get to before then. Yes, we certainly do. We do.
As I was driving here this morning, news was breaking about some people leaving some of the Bravo shows and.
Sorry, I lost my voice, and I like, I love it. Rasby like this, but I.
Can't seem to get We're gonna excrase it.
Yeah, so yeah, people are leaving some of the shows.
Well, and the timing of that, although unfortunate I'm sure for lots of viewers, and potentially even for the Housewives, Uh, unfortunate. Unfortunate though it is maybe for them, it sort of works out for us because our topic today is sort of what happens after you lose you or I don't know about identity, because I don't know that our guests would agree that it was an identity that he lost.
But you know, when you go from being famous and then all of a sudden you're not, whether it's at you're canceled, or you leave a show that you've been, you know, part of for so long, and I guess it's different if you decide to leave. But even if you do decide to leave.
Whether you're fired or put on pause or whatever it is, that is a big piece of your identity, it is, and when you are separated from that, you can really have an identity crisis.
Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've seen it. I've not been close friends with anyone that has gone through it, but it, you know, would unfolds in social media, and it feels like it's very, very hard for people to rebound. Specifically, I think Housewives I'm talking about, but certainly there are plenty of famous people that all of a sudden they're
not in the spotlight anymore for whatever reason. I mean, Jack, you've been doing Housewives way longer than I have, and you know you've gone through some stuff, but you probably are more of an expert in terms of like speaking to this.
Right well, I mean my.
Step back to friend role from full time. Even though that was something that I had spoken to Bravo about and we all decided that was best considering my mental stata at the time, it was still very hard for me. And when I started filming my fifth season suddenly as a friend instead of a full time cast member. My head was spinning. I was so upset. All the time,
I felt really insecure. I would walk into rooms and instead of being put into scenes, I was told to wait until full time cast members had finished talking, and it made me feel oh yeah, I felt so I didn't know what to do with myself. I kept asking myself, why am I here, What's going on? And it took me a really long probably until the end of that season to even feel comfortable, And then I felt really
uncomfortable again at the reunion. I just didn't know how to not be a full time cast member and how to be there now.
I love I've said this all the time.
I don't know if I'm pigeonholing myself, but I really do love the funeral, mostly because I get to just do it and my family doesn't have to do it right, you know.
And that's not to say that I wouldn't in the future.
But I mean, I'm really really comfortable like this, and you'll see it this season too. There's none of that feeling of like inadequacy this season at all for me. I don't genuinely don't feel that anymore. I like the friend eral, But that being said, it was a really hard, hard transition for me. Plus I wasn't in the best place in terms of mental health, but that certainly it certainly didn't help. Even though it wasn't my decision, it
was not easy at all. I went home and questioned myself a lot, questioned my worth, questioned my identity.
Well, I think that's so key, right, And I mean, you got demoted as opposed to being put on pause, fired, whatever it is, and what then? Right, So when, especially with I would think a show like this to have it encompasses you, Right, It's not just the three months of filming, it's the entire year of social media and events and trying to figure out what's coming next, and so what happens when that goes away?
Right?
Well, So that's why I was so lucky, because I got to stay in it and also be out of it. And since that time, I have become a master at really compartmentalizing work. And I love this show and I enjoy my castmates, and I have some really true, genuine friendships. But I can step back and let work be work, and let the rest of my life be the rest of my life, and I don't feel like that's always possible.
If you're full time.
It really does take over your life. And some people love that and they wanted to take over their life. For me, it had become overwhelming. But I will tell you that one of the hardest things about being demoted was the social media, because no matter what I would do on social media, there would be at least like one hundred comments saying shut up you're demoted, or shut up demotion or they called me demoted.
Oh my god. It was like for a down like it was. It was really hard.
It made me feel really bad about myself and it took me a while to get passed.
Listen, and the truth is said, they weren't calling you demoted. They were calling you a whore, a thief people on social media. Social media is the devil. So it's like, if they're not calling you one thing, at least that's been what I've seen, they're calling you something else. Maybe demoted is like the lesser of many evils. I don't know, but it is really hard. I mean, I didn't have to do this.
I still stayed honestly the friend role nothing has changed except for the fact that my family doesn't film. I still am invited to everything I go to, everything I do, a ton of press. I also had a book come out this year, so I'd said I had more press than like anybody's, but I not anybody. I mean, but I had a ton of press, more than I've ever had.
So for me, things haven't really changed so much, right, But I can't imagine going from all of this to suddenly being knocked off the show and having none of it anymore, because it.
Does dry up.
The interesting thing I think is when I watch housewives who have like really rough seasons right like like go through so much, seems so unhappy. I can't imagine being in the spotlight. I mean, you think about someone like Kyle who's been doing it for so long on Beverly Hills, and what she's gone through, the ups and the downs, and then but continuing to want it right, continuing to sign on the dotted line, because what does it mean if you don't, And what are you really losing if
you're not a public figure anymore, not a housewife anymore. Again, all of this is not just applied to the housewives, of course, but that's what you know, where we come from, and you know, why would you want to continue going down that rat trap. It's not always that obviously, there's
a lot of positives in being a housewife. But you see then when people do, you know, stop being housewives, they want to do it again, or they want to do an ultimate girls trip, or they want to do another show, and so you know, what are they missing. It's not easy to be a housewife or a friend of for that matter, and it's also very anxiety producing. It is also an adventure and really can be just
so much fun. And of course there's so much about it that's positive, but there are there's stuff that's negative.
There's also a really decent paycheck, and we're forgetting that part, you know, and a lot of people need this money.
But I don't think everyone does. I don't think everyone does. But no, no, no, no, obviously, but I think.
That I think without the paycheck that there would still be that sort of panic after I don't.
I think eighty percent of the Housewolds wouldn't do it if there wasn't a paycheck.
Really, yeah, I really do. I don't agree.
I think maybe for a year or two, but I think without a paycheck, I think a lot of them would not.
That's so interesting. I mean, look at Robin Dixon just left.
I don't think she made an official announcement yet, so I could be wrong, but as of recording, it's being reported.
That she left at Candas Dillard.
I know that Robin's husband has had a shaky job lately.
I'm not sure that he's working. I don't know what's going on with that. But I can't imagine that she would walk away from such a big paycheck if she's the only one with a stable income right right now.
I get that, but you know, you know, also, I think when I started we started recording my first season, which was just whatever a season ago. But one of the producers said to me, and I would have angst throughout the you know, the filming of it and stuff that would go down. It was my first season, and it was extremely uncomfortable and being me and being this neurotic, there was stuff that just wouldn't just sort of you know, you've been doing this a while. I just didn't feel like, well,
this is work and this is life. It's it's you know, I think those lines get very blurred, but the producer said to me, I would be like, I can't do this, and he said, really, Let's see what happens after the season airs.
Let's see how you feel.
Let's see how you feel once you're a little famous, because you'll be the only one that doesn't get addicted to it. And so obviously I do think it's some money. I do agree with you that you have to factor in all of these things. But when you go from being I mean, I'm not famous. You have been doing this a lot longer than I have, Jackie, so it's a different thing for you. But when you go from getting so much attention and then all of a sudden, you don't, I think that's an esteem thing. It's a
certainly it's an identity thing. And I know that I'm because I am new to all of this. Still I try to prep myself because, especially if I'm fifty five years old, like, my trajectory is not to be the next you, Teresa Judas. You won't see me in twenty years, you know, being a housewife. So it's it's going to end, whether it ends, this is it or it's going to.
End for everybody right flash, Like I don't think anybody is going to be here in a decade from now, like look back in twenty thirty four, and like it's not happening.
Well either way. Like I I try to keep myself in check, like and the thing is, I have a whole life outside, like all of us do outside of this show. And I was it's my life was happy, not always happy, but happy and you know, filled with a lot of good stuff before I got on the Housewives of New Jersey. So I just always kind of like doing a check because I see these housewives. They get off and they've seem they're so eager to get
back on and they want their jobs back. Is it a money thing, is it a fame thing, is it an esteem thing? Is it an ego thing?
Well, I think some of them don't have very fulfilling lives outside of the show. I really think that they don't have that much to go back to. I mean, take somebody like and I really like this person, but take somebody like Shannon, right, she's been on the show along to Orange County. Shannon Shannon Badoor on Orange County. She's great, bubbly, has beautiful children, but I believe she's an empty nester.
Now I think, right, they're all off in college.
And her relationship of the past three years is like burned to the ground, and he's now dating one of her ex friends very publicly. She just had a horrific, you know, public embarrassing dui where she like hit house and ran away, I mean like and she wants to come back.
So I don't think.
That her life, her life felt very fulfilled outside of it, she had a relationship that was special to her, or she saw her kids all the time. I don't think that I think she'd be in a healthy enough place to say this is not working for me.
Well, think about though, think about like a Heather du Bro and I would hope that we can like come up with examples that are not just just housewives, because housewise is any tiny they were in it is, But there's also a whole world that there are people that like our guest, who sort of go through you know,
being uber famous on TV and then not so. But having said that, like a Heather who doesn't seem to me that she's doing it for the money, seems to have a you know, you never know obviously what really goes down with people, but adorable what it is for adorable kids. They see her and Terry seem madly in love. But if she keeps signing up for it and ps, I don't think every season is that easy for her. I think she has a lot of really, really tough seasons.
So what's that about that you? So? I think that people can have full lives, but there's an addiction that happens here. So it's I think it's the money. I think it's the fame. And what is that about? Like if people don't recognize you, do you not feel like you're enough?
If I think for a lot of people, that was where I am was last year, but where I am now is so drastically different.
I am not.
I'm saying this honestly. I am so not addicted to this. You see the way I am.
I don't.
I don't go to like the things like every I don't go to the opening of an envelope the way that everybody else does, like I pick and choose now, I don't feel the need to be in the center because I know, based on the things I've done this last year, I know that I can remain if I want to remain in the spotlight. I don't need necessarily a show. There's a lot of other things I can do. I don't think that everybody believes that.
But what if you can't remain in the spotlight. So I'm not talking about you, what I I think I'd be okay, So that's the question, that's I think.
But I know I'm smart, I can do things right.
But let's say that you don't feel that way because I work I talk about this a lot in therapy, and so if you're not famous, if you can't make yourself famous another way, right, So so I do really work on trying to understand that, like the fame, being at the top or being at the bottom, none of it is really real, right, So if you're not in touch with yourself and who you are. And I don't want to get all you know, therap pew dick and but it's it's just what I do work on it.
I worked on it way before this show. But let's say you know you're not at the top and you get kicked off a show, or you know you're at the very bottom trying to climb up, or at the top trying to avoid getting you know, fire, whatever a situation that's in it all goes back to the fact that if you're not content, you know, within yourself, I know that not only are you enough, Like and again
I'm sorry for all this. Hope this doesn't sound too corny, but that you are okay, and you are loved, and you're not more because you're famous, and you're not less because you're famous, and it's all just a matter of you know, that feeling of loving yourself and not needing attention from outside.
True and yes, but also you have to believe that there are other ways.
I mean, like we'll talk to our guests about but like he had a very hard departure from his you know, the show that defined him. But as we'll learn today, he is embarking on some new ventures and they're really really exciting and very big. It's very easy to think that this is it and when one door closes, then your life just closes down.
No, I don't want to. I think that it's that's the trick. I hope.
That's what I try to prep my own self for, like feeling all of this and this is such an adventure and you know, being at a premiere and there's cameras and oh my god, I can't you know, it's overwhelming and very exciting, but it doesn't I'm really I really try hard. That's not what I want to define me, you know, and that's not what I want to fill me up. I wanted to be exciting in the moment, have the fun, and then be able to step back and know that if it went away, I'll be okay.
I mean, I was even thinking about like TJ and Amy. TJ Holmes and Amy Robach. We talked about them last week. But the way that they said aft you know, now that they're not on Good Morning America, they would never go back. I don't know what the future holds for them exactly, but how they said that, they were really so unhappy. You know, on Good Morning America, TJ spoke about the depression that he battled and it got really
really bad for a while. But it's interesting because they they were there, both of them were there for such a long time, and they were they're both very famous, both in the spotlight, and now they're not, and you know, in some ways there's so much happier. So I don't know, maybe they do crave the spotlight back. I don't know what they know. Their next move is but I think it's always a mixed bag. But I definitely think that for someone like our guests, we're being very mysterious about
the guest. And for a lot of housewives, and I'm not a housewife, I'm a friend of a housewife. But if this is my last season, I am, there could be a big I could have a big identity crisis. I really really hope not, but it's certainly possible because I see it, you know, with other people that have been housewives or friends of how to handle that and how to know that, like life goes on and you're enough even if you walk into a restaurant and no one knows who you are, which.
Is actually and like I want me talking to plenty of restaurants, and I am people like to get free stuff all the time.
I'm like, no, I might get like a.
Free canoli at the end of dinner, but like it's I mean, if I'm out at an event that I'm invited to, of course they get free stuff. But like in general, I'm paying for my meals. I pay for everything. By the way, I'm one of these people who don't like to take advantage of small businesses. So I know plenty of people are always like, you should get this for free, you should get even people on our cast.
No, you should get that for free, and you should get that. I don't want to I would.
I mean, of course, everybody likes a freebie, but like, I'm not going to ask for anything from a small business that's not offering it for free, because I believe that like that's I want to help.
Them succeed and thrive.
I think that a lot of small businesses or not even small business, but they want the exposure quote unquote you know, so like if you highlight my company and what we do, that'll bring more business. And I think a lot of stuff is negotiated like that.
If they approach me and they want it like that, that's one thing. But like to push a small business to give me things for free is not great in my personality.
But I do think that we like that on reality TV.
And one thing that makes it really hard to stay there and maybe a blessing in disguise when you do leave. Not not me, I'm saying other people who have decided to leave, is that it's the public really enjoys watching people fail and canceling them and watching them discover their spouse is cheating or having a mental breakdown or you know, having going bankrupt or getting a dui. Like the internet goes crazy, we go crazy?
Is that? Why? Why do we?
And it's and I say we because you know, in the past, watching everything goes back to the housewise all rose lead back to houses. But watching housewives and there were cast members or whatever characters that I really didn't like, right that I thought, you know, this one is such
a bitch. And then something happened, and unfortunately I would get satisfaction, not something necessarily was horri horrifying or I'm not talking about you know, God forbid, like an illness or a child or anything like that, but like when you see someone kind of get theirs and I hate that part of myself and I know it's there and it makes me human and I know for all of us that's I mean, And that's a battle ife fight, right too, even if I when you don't like someone,
still knowing that they're human and still praying for their health, wealth and happiness.
But it's not easy.
And I do sometimes myself when I really don't like someone and I'm watching them on a housewives show, get satisfaction out of like, ha, you know you got yours.
And it's just I think it's a human response. It is very human and but but it's also very sad.
We do.
We are in a and I'm not saying it's always wrong.
I'm saying sometimes people do truly deserve to be canceled.
But man, do we cancel people really? Oh my god?
Yeah, it's brutal and that I am not into the cancel culture at Yeah, I'm not.
Really into it either.
And I think if somebody does something really terrible, like that's one thing. But wow, we cancel curiously. We don't cancel people for anti Semitism that easily.
But it's a different episode. Yes, yes, I.
Mean my god, sometimes it feels like you can say anything about us.
But I'm with you there, sister. Yeah, we'll go into that another time.
So, but what about you do you do you have like this big fear of not being asked back?
No, And I know that you don't always even probably don't even necessarily believe me because it feels like everybody is so afraid of being not being asked BacT. I don't have a fear about it. I have though at a healthy self awareness that if I don't, my ego will be bruised. And that's a different thing. I don't have a fear that like my life won't go on. It's more an ego thing. And it's more like, oh, I wasn't good enough and they were better than me, and I am not proud of that. But it's not
like what will I do now? It's more, you know, Well, when I was told that I was just going to be a friend of at the beginning, when we were all brought in, Danielle and Rachel and myself, and then it was going to be decided who was going to go on to become a housewife, and it wasn't me. I was going to stay a friend of anyway. That first, the moment that I found out, and probably for a day, I was like devastated, how dare you? I feel like I've spoken about this on the on this have we
spoken about this before here on the pod? Well, when I found out, I was like, you know, how dare you? And then I was just I was I found myself getting choked up after hearing it, and I was just spinning. And a friend of mine, her name is Marcy anyway, she. I was talking to her about it and very upset, and she's like, I don't know what you're talking about. Like, you've got to be kidding me. You have an opportunity to do something that is so exciting, and you're getting
to do it without having to expose so much. Have people come into your home and you know, put Jeff through cameras in his face, and although I think now Jeff probably would have loved it, but anyway, so you know, you have like such a great scenario going here, and what do you what do you at?
Like, what do you want?
And I had to like stop, think it through, and all of a sudden, and I swear this is true because I was like, well, I'm not gonna do it. If I'm gonna I called the next day. I called the producers not making this up, and I said, guys, please ignore me.
It was all my ego. I'm good.
I just felt like in that moment, this sense of rejection. And even when I started, I was like, you know what, I don't think I'm going to be end up being a housewife. I'll be a friend of a housewife. That'll be great, but it's it. It was all my ego and it worked out for me beautifully, right. I had a great time. We had a great time, and you know it wasn't I watched some of our other cast mates and they get it's just so invasive.
I mean, Jen, you want to know the honest truth. And I don't think I've said this to you. I think it was just an age thing. And I don't think that Bravo's agist. I just think that they're like, they wanted young, young families. That's what Jersey is, It's families, agreed.
I really think that you.
I think you and I'm not just saying this because you're my closest friend on the cast, but I think that you have the most dynamic personality of the three movies.
I really do. I think that people love you.
I've never seen people drawn to a friend the way that they are to you, and I've never seen.
A friend grow so fast the way that you have.
But and people don't even realize you're a friend, Like everyone just calls you a housewife. But I think that that they want young families.
Firstly, I appreciate what you just said.
Thank you, Jack, And yeah, I mean I was very happy with the amount of you know, airtime I got and all of that worked out, and I agree that it is Jersey is a family franchise, and so of course think that that has a lot to do that I'm an empty nester, you know. But I will say that it was just an interesting ride for me the first couple of days to go from like this feeling of you know, rejection and inadequacy to wow, you dumb bitch, like this is a great scenario for you.
Are you crazy?
And I remember the next morning calling the producers insane guys because I was huffing and puffing. I was like, please forgive me. It was my ego. I'm good, this is all great, So just forget what I said. And it wasn't just because I didn't, you know, even wanted to stay on the show. And I was just like, really just felt like my feelings were just hurt. Yeah, And so I was sort of reacting from that and
then I stepped back from it. But guess what then again this past summer, when I was told I'm going to be a friend of again, because I had people saying are you going to be full time? I had the same like like there was no I had the same reaction, I was like, what, I was totally cool.
I was like, okay, peace, well I.
Was I was again my feelings were hurt. And then again I swear I'm not making this up. The next day, I was like, you dumb bitch, get a grip, like this was so fun the first time, it'll be fun the second time.
I guess is here.
But I just want to say, with regard to the people that have left the shows as of recording time, I hope that Candice has a really successful music career because I think she's very talented and I thoroughly enjoy her song drive Back.
I think it's such a bop, and I wish only a really.
Successful career for her. But so, why don't you announce our guests?
You guys, we are really really excited. So today's guest, I think you probably all will know. He's somebody that did a reality show for how many years?
Jack? Oh god, I don't even know. Forever, fifteen years? Well, I can't forever was right?
He was the heart and soul of a shifty years Okay, so he was the heart and soul of a show you may know called The Bachelor.
Our guest is Chris Harrison.
Hi, Chris Harrison, good afternoon, Good day to you. How's it going, Good.
Day to you. Well, it's going well. Now we are.
We've actually, you guys had the honor of being on Chris's podcast.
That was a really really good day.
And we've been pressuring him to come on ours, and he broke under the pressure.
Finally I did.
Finally. First of all, congratulations because the podcast is doing amazingly well. You guys are crushing it. The numbers have been fantastic.
Thank you.
It doesn't surprise me that you guys have really resonated with the fans and everybody. He's loving it. And so I really don't do a lot of podcasts anymore because, as you know, when you have your own podcast, you kind of need to save all the good dirt.
True, Yeah, that's very true.
But I did. I broke down for you too.
Okay, So feel free not to answer anything you don't want to answer, but we're going to ask all the questions.
So now we won't we won't.
Put you on the spot, but we are excited to congratulate you. We heard that you have a new TV comeback. Can you tell us about it?
Yeah, this has been such a phenomenal blessing and kind of I would say, a nice surprise, but we've been working at it for a while, so it's not like it just came out of nowhere. But we have joined forces with Doctor Phil at Merritt Street Media. You know, there was a big story a year or two ago whatever when Doctor Phil decided to up and leave CBS, and everyone's like, what in the world. He's the number one talk show host. What is happening? And it's a
big deal for CBS to lose him. And he had been quietly working behind the scenes to build and bought a network that is called Merritt Street Media. It's debuting April second. It'll be the biggest network debut ever, over eighty million subscribers, from Dish to direct to all the cable companies. And he came to us US, meaning Lauren and I my wife, and we had our production company, and he said, look, I think it's crazy you're not
on TV. I don't understand it. I want you back on TV, and I want you to be working on my show, Doctor Phil Primetime, kind of what he was doing with Oprah, I will be doing with him. We've already started taping those shows, but then he said, I want you guys to think bigger. What do you want to do? And so Lauren and I are in the midst of cranking out a morning show. We're in the hiring phase of that. There will also be a relationship show, a reality show. And it is maybe the most incredible
exciting news I've had in my career. I mean so pumped to be doing this.
Are you the talent on the morning show where you're just putting it together as a producer.
No, Laura and I are going to be hosting it together. We're going to take We're taking the magic of the podcast and we're launching it into a morning show.
I love that.
Working with Lauren is phenomenal. She is incredibly funny, very good at improv, took you know, worked on improv for many years, has a great comedic note to her. But she's also brilliant and smart and well read and pushes me in.
That's exactly what Jeff Sessler says about me. Yeah, like Worth would kill me if we were goodness. But so the dating show is it's different than The Bachelor? I'm assuming of course.
Yes, it'll be. It'll it'll be different. We won't say how and what just yet, but it has been something that this idea we we kind of hatched and then I was this doctor Phil thing came and we went and pitched it to him because now that I'm kind of in the family and I want to keep everything on Merritt Street. He bought it in the room and it really is refreshing because you know, you guys are obviously in the industry. The industry has been dumped on
its head lately. Yeah, you know, everybody is contracting cutting. It's the business has become very much business and not creative anymore. The people making the decisions are bean counters and tech people, and they're not creatives who understand the business who have many of them have never even created television before, and they're making these huge decisions, and you're seeing the repercussions. These streamers are struggling. They're either closing
their doors or they are massively cutting costs. Same thing with a lot of these studios. Now you have doctor Phil who is doing the exact opposite. He is a host, he has created before, and he's the one that's pulling the strings and he is creating this network and it has been so refreshing.
I bet when do you think that started? When do you think that switch began? And I don't know if you're also talking about the way we were talking about people getting canceled and buyed and all of that, and we'll get into that certainly with you, but what do you think that's about. When did that switch happen where it became about being counters making decisions and as opposed to creative people being able.
To do their thing.
You know, Lauren and I talk about this a lot because we're very much into the business, and we listened to so many podcasts about this, and you know, you would have to go there was first Netflix and Netflix came on the scene and you remember like House of Cards with Kevin Spacey and Lamon Wright and it was incredible. But at the same time, you're hearing these numbers and it's twenty million dollars for this and twenty million dollars for this, and the right you're thinking to yourself, wait,
you have no advertising. You're charging four dollars or seven dollars a month for subscription and you're paying one hundreds of million dollars. This is not sustainable. This can't work, and then you had this flood of Peacock and Hulu and you name it Paramount. Everybody was like, oh my god, we got to have a streamer. Well, again, it's not
sustainable because you have no advertising dollars. Well, and seven to ten dollars a month from a subscriber is not going to make it possible to make a Game Thrones or to make any of these incredible epic movies or shows. And so I think you had the Amazons of the world Apples of the world. To them, it's a rounding air. They don't care.
Right.
Amazon is not worried about making television. They hope you buy underwear. They hope you're buying your shoes. So it's a rounding air for them. If they lose money on their streamer, it doesn't matter. Same thing with Apple. They're the most cash flush company in the world. So if they lose money on Masters of the Air with Tom Hanks and Spielberg, they don't care. It's not that big
of it. I mean, I say they don't care. They would love to make money, but it's not a big deal because what they care about is that you and I are sitting here with our phones and then you have apples and oranges, right, you have real studios like Disney and some of these you know, some of these studios that they really need the content to work. That's how they make their money. So when you have people trying to make money off content and company that don't care, something's got to give.
Very interesting and Merritt Street is going to be one of those that actually care.
That the best name by the way, ever, well, it was very intentional, doctor Phil was very intentional on merit and earning the respect and trying to make television for the rest of the country that feels like they've really been left out of the conversation lately. Wow, and and kind of take over the debate world, and let's start having television and news for those that don't want to just win an argument. You would really like toy solve problem A.
Well, I'm really excited to see you back on TV.
Was there any hesitation on your part, considering you got pretty beat up by the TV world by social media?
Was there any hesitation?
Not at all? You know, I luckily, you know, I was divorced and went through a you know, I was married for what seventeen eighteen years and then got divorced, and I may I'm sure that after I got divorced, because the one thing we all do, whether we go through something tragic or grief or divorce, is there's that snapback of like, oh my gosh, I need to start dating again, or I need to get back out there,
I need to be back in a relationship. And I was very good about pumping the brakes, giving myself time to heal, grow, get my life back in order, and then start dating again. I felt the same thing about the Bacheler. I've been doing it for nineteen years, and obviously there was that traumatic split with the Bachelor, and I pumped the brakes and just took some time off and made sure I got my kids off to college
and enjoyed that. I fell in love and got married to Lauren Zema and really got my sea legs back under me. But now the fire was burning again, and I really got to the point where the podcast was going. But that's not enough for me. I want to do more. And this came along and it was just the perfect timing.
So when doctor Phil approached us and we went and had lunch several times, and he says, I want you back, there was no question, no has it at all, especially considering how he's doing it and what this network stands for.
So I'm interested in two things. Well, first where in the kron a lot chronology of it all? The divorce and your exit from the Bachelor?
Oh uh, nowhere close? We were my divorce, I like what twenty eleven? I think it was. So it was a while ago, okay, and then took some time to be single and dated and you know, it was in some relationships, and then you know, it took a while to come back around and find the one and only Lauren Zema.
Right.
Well, I ask you because I and this is obviously where we're going with all of this. And I don't know how much you've actually spoken about your exit from the Bachelor, but I'm picturing a scenario that must have been very, very difficult. So and then picturing divorce a divorce into the mix. So I'm glad that you had
some separation from those two things. And maybe you're going to tell us that it wasn't difficult, But I really think that you are going to tell us that your exit from the Bachelor was not pleasant.
Oh, of course it was not pleasant. It was, and one hundred percent I've said it's difficult, and it was difficult. I wouldn't wish that. I wouldn't wish what we went through. And I say, well, because it was my family as well on anybody. It was brutal. But at the same time, oddly, and I really haven't spoken about this, it definitely helped
that I had gone through a divorce. Obviously, the divorce it was public, but it wasn't as traumatic and crazy and it wasn't as sensationalized as the departure from The Bachelor was. But at the same time, the lessons you
learn when you go through things in life. You know, for example, if I had if what I had gone through with the Bachelor separation had happened when I was thirty years old, thirty five years old, it would I would not have handled it and been able to cope with it as well as going through it at forty nine or fifty or how well, however old I was at the time. Experience helps in anything, go through it life.
Chris, I love this because we are, you know, talking about well we talk. We always refer a lot to the Housewives for obvious reasons, but of course, but how to handle that feeling of being, you know, of losing quote unquote relevance and your whole identity. I would think so much of it was I hope not, but I'm assuming was wrapped up and being the host of the Bachelor.
But you'd been through this before, You've been through this sort of loss and these changes, and it's I would love for you to speak more to that, like what could you bring into the loss of the Bachelor from your divorce and how how did you maintain?
Yeah, how did you get through it?
Because I mean, I was demoted at one point and it was quite a traumatic to my identity and it took me a while to find my way back.
I always and you know it's funny, I always preached and lived by a certain value in a code that luckily came to fruition during my separation of the Bachelor, and that was I never identified myself from what I did. I was never a big Hollywood guy. I never defined myself by being the Bachelor host. That was not my being. My being was being a good dad, being a good husband, being a great friend. All my friends, most if not all of them, trying to think aren't in the business
at all. The weird thing about The Bachelor was especially early on we were kind of the bastard stepchild of television, you know, long before Housewives and all that. This reality
TV thing was not welcomed by the community. I remember going to the upfronts and Lloyd Brown was the president of ABC and I was on stage at the I think it was Radio City Music Hall in New York, and they're announcing all the fall schedules for what's coming up, and it's like, according to Jim and NYPD Blue and they're like, and I hate to say it, it's unfortunate, and you know, I hope it dies a miserable death.
But the Bachelor's coming to ABC. And I'm like, I really felt like, you know, the prostitute of like, sure, everybody wants to sleep with us, nobody wants to be seen.
At lunch with us. That's so funny.
It's funny, and it's funny the because you know, when there's change in the industry, when there's change in life, the norm fights back, right. So TV writers and producers and even actors were like, they're taking our jobs, they're ruining the business. And you know, my whole thing was I've never seen a great television show that everybody loves be canceled for anything, much less amen a reality show. If you have a great show that's doing well, trust me,
it's not going anywhere. But the funny thing is is then everything does a oneint eighty and all those people who are bitching and moaning are now hosting game shows, hosting reality shows are a part of those shows or producing shows. So everybody came around. But early days, it was really funny how we were treated, and so I was totally I was never really a part of the Hollywood community, and I never lived in Hollywood. I always lived outside of you know, out of LA and you know,
raised my kids. And I was the only person, you know, in the Housewives. There's a group of you. Well, for me, I was the only host that stayed. I was the only constant, you know. The Bachelor and bacherettes came and went, and so I never really had a cast to hang out with. When I would go promote it at ABC or other events, I was by myself, and so it was a very weird existence but also probably beneficial in the end.
I just absolutely love everything you just said because and I would love to adopt it for myself. And we're talking about one day it's going to be over. Maybe one day soon it'll be over for me, and it has. I mean, you can't compare. I've been on a Friend of the housewive for two years. For two minutes, it
feels like Jackie's been on a lot longer. But to have that sense of identity that can't be swayed by being canceled or even fired, right, like you're saying, you were filled with children and friendships and living somewhere else. So maybe it didn't take you down in the same way that it would up if you were younger.
But I think you also trusted the process and knew that other things were to come because you believed in your talent and what in your drive, right.
Is that true?
Well?
And I think at the end of the day, you got to believe in yourself, and you believe. I know I'm a good man, I know my values, I know everything that I've stood for for my entire life, much less than nineteen years that people have gotten to know me on the show, And so I wasn't worried about some of the things that were being said about me because I just I know they're not true, right, It
didn't affect me in that way. It definitely affected my life and it affected me, but at that part I knew I'm a big believer in karma, and I just know the truth will come out and I know people will, good people win in the end. I truly believe that, big optimist. But you know, I also think and i'd be interested to throw this back on the two of you.
I know it was easier for me because I'm a host, and while you saw my life somewhat and you got to know me, I was the host of the show, whereas with you too and all the housewives, the show is about your life technically, you know, is everything one hundred percent real? No, But it's still you, it's your values. We're watching your lives, your marriages, your divorces. So I'm just curious how the two of you can walk that line. It was maybe a little bit easier for me as a host.
That's that's I think more a question for you, Jack, only because you've been doing it for longer.
I mean, how did I walk that lot?
Like?
How did I?
Well?
I think are you saying that because it was part of your actual personal life.
So how was it for me to step back from that?
How does it? How does that not define your how?
And when I look around at all the other house eyes, I mean at Bravocon, I was looking around and like, I think that most of the people in that room feel defined. They are a housewife first and foremost, and it was a really really hard transition. It does define you, and that's that's something that I feel very grateful to have been able to step back and work on myself and realize that it doesn't, because it actually allowed me to do a lot of other creative things in the past year.
I wrote a book, I started a podcast, I have some other projects starting.
And I don't think I would have been able to do that had my entire life been defined by housewives.
And I guess we should also differentiate because people might be listening and thinking, well, this is what you're known for, and there's something different. I understand what I'm known for, and I understand, you know, like tonight, Jason Tartick is here in Austin, Texas. He's doing a big book launch for his new book, and Lauren and I are going to go support him. I understand that and I understand. Like,
I just went back home to Missouri. My son was playing lacrosse at Missoo and so we went up there because Lauren went to school at Miszoo College kids. Everybody was coming up and talking about The Bachelor. And I understand what I'm known for. And I will never fight that. You know, I'm never one of those people of like, hey, I'm going to Merritt Street, Please don't bring up The Bachelor. Believe me to be proud of it.
Of course I am.
I you know, I'm not proud of everything, but I'm very proud of what I did. We've made television history over twenty years, and so I will never fight that. And I understand what I'm known for. I guess what I'm I just want to make sure there's a clarification of uh, like what Jackie's saying. I understand what you're
known for, But what defines your right right? What do you allow in your heart and soul of When I wake up in the morning of like, Okay, I'm the Bachelor guy, It's like, no, I'm I'm a husband, I'm a dad, I'm a good friend.
Can I ase you a personal question that you don't have to answer, Well, I'm asking you if I can, I'm going to so, but you don't have to answer it. So I'm I mean, I talk a lot about the fact that I've been in therapy for years and years and years, twenty years, but I work on this still almost every time every week. And when I say that I work on it, not oh my god, if I lose my position is the house I have more sort of like my identity and becoming comfortable with who I am.
And I'm sorry again, I'm just I feel like I'm just very corny on this whole episode, but like loving myself right. But I'm wondering if therapy was something that you've ever been in, or you know, maybe even after you left the Bachelor it was, or you just naturally are this conference and resilient. Yeah, a secure man.
Number one, I believe in therapy. Number two, I have gone to therapy. I went to therapy. Started. The first time I ever saw a therapist is back probably in my divorce phase, like ty ten twenty eleven, as I
was unwinding. It was a seventeen year marriage. But I've been been with this person, my ex wife, since my sophomore year of college when you're eighteen nineteen years old, and then you know, when you go from eighteen or nineteen to forty, that is you know, those are massive years of your life of growing and things where we should have been dating and getting broken up with and so there was a lot of growing and learning I had to do and needed to do. And when I
started dating again, I mean think about that. You're eighteen nineteen years old and you stop, and when I say you stop, it's like you kind of stop developing to a certain degree, right because you have this one person in your life. So I'm not dating anymore. I'm not learning how to you know, break up, love, all this, you know, heartbreak. And so then all of a sudden, I'm forty years old and it's like, okay, now I have a little bit of money, a little bit of fame,
start dating again. Oh my god, It's like there's a comedy in there. Believe me, because it was a mess. So I hundred percent believe in in therapy. And my daughter actually is a psychology major going into child development. So we talk about that a lot in our family.
Amazing. Can I ask you a question?
There was an article an interview that you gave in that was published in December, and you said that you had to remove yourself from a toxic situation and that it wasn't healthy. Were you talking about the show itself or the process by which you were you left the show? Because I think we all have opinions on The Bachelor?
Yeah, oh no, no, And so the thing about The Bachelor is the show was an amazing creation and it really was revolutionized reality TV and dating shows. I mean, you look at what's happening today. There is I've always said, there's an insatiable appetite for romance and love. And so you see these other shows that have kind of taken the mantle of the big shows, whether it's Love Is Blind or even a buddy of mine produced f Boy Island, And you know, so there's this huge spectrum of shows
now that are doing very well. So there's still this appetite for love and romance. And look, did we do everything perfect over the nineteen years I was there?
No?
Are they probably? And I haven't watched the show. Are they still doing everything perfectly? Probably?
Not?
But that wasn't what I was referring to. I was more referring to the world with which I was working in thing too detailed.
Do you think there's also an insatiable appetite for heartbreak and.
Watching the person get stood up the other person and watching them take him home and meet their families and then get dumped the next day. I just think that it's such a I don't know, we enjoy watching.
Well, yeah, we're talking about that at the beginning of this episode down Fall the heartbreak. And I don't like to admit that about myself, but I do everybody. I have those moments when I'm watching reality TV and I'm not a fan of whomever. I wish that I, you know, could be different, but I'm human and sometimes it's fun to see, you know, somebody get there, somebody get theirs.
And look we all. I think, if you you know, it's funny. I just spoke to the journalism school up at Missouri and I said the same I said the same thing. We were talking about this exact topic. If you asked people like it's it's take it to politics. When we give these exit polls for politics, you know the pundits on TV this, how often are those exit
polls actually right? Very few times? It's you know, people will vote in private speak publicly we watch TV, and private we will talk publicly, meaning we will say that we love the romance, we love a love story. We like it, you know, the fairy tale ending. But even in any Disney movie, you know what's it start with. It usually starts with a parent being murdered, and then
you get to the happy ending. And that's Disney for crying out last night, So we all will you know, in Nascar events, do we want to just see cars drive around in a circle. No, it's the idea that at any moment, at two hundred miles per hour, this car could roll and burst into flames, and often it does happen. And so there when I watched The Housewives, same thing. I don't want to just see a bunch of ladies get together and have mimosas and just giggle. You want to see the trama to see exactly if.
Of course, you have to have conflict. Any good movie, any good book, any good story has conflict, and so every good television show, reality or otherwise has to have that conflict as well, and then you want the resolution.
Did you get the sense from social media after your departure that people are enjoying your downfall, because as somebody who watched The Bachelor and watched you on it for so long, I found it heartbreaking, and because you know, you weren't part of the mix, you weren't a character. You were the host, and you were a loving host, and you were a respectful host and a fun to watch. But I'm wondering if you felt some of that, like your fall from Greece was.
I would add much to this. I would say, much to the chagrin of probably just a few people, it was overwhelmingly positive, good from day one.
I'm so glad.
Yeah, I felt publicly to this day. People come up to me and it's nothing but love and respect and admiration and this thing we all shared again. I was at Missoo this weekend and these college kids come in and they're like, hey, I grew up watching your show. My mom and I would watch your show and it meant a lot to me. And sadly, a lot of them say they don't watch anymore, and that's that's unfortunate that you know they.
You feel like that's unfortunate. You don't like that just a little bit.
Well, honestly, this is well, this is a weird thing, because yes, the ratings have plummeted, and there's, of course, there's probably a part of me that's like, okay, good, I'm glad the show is, you know, half of what it used to be when I was there. But there's this other side of me that doesn't want it to go away because it was something I built, and I was part of the construction process of this thing, and I built this franchise and was the face and voice
of it for two decades. And you know, that's almost two generations of people growing up that have watched this show, and I know a lot of people that are still on that show. And when people talk about people being fired, we hear this a lot in sports, of like this guy should be fired, fire the coach, And I'm like, man, as someone who's gone through and I wasn't fired, But at the same time, someone who broke away from a
job that he'd had for a long time. I'm just really reluctant to call for anybody's job, or to wish anybody to lose a job, because it affects so many people, you know, behind the scenes. Even if you wanted, like the executive one EP or whoever you're really mad at them. Well, the photographers, the camera guys. You guys have know you've been on set, the audio craft services. The ripple effect is huge and there's a lot of jobs on the line, so I don't wish them ill will in that way.
I was going to ask you about being an empty nester and how that's like I've been time and.
I want to hear about that too. And Lauren. We want to hear about Lauren. Yeah.
I mean, first of all, the greatest thing that ever happened to me in my life. She has just been She's been a godsend, truly, and it is the most wonderful thing. And I tell people that are looking for love and you're out there and you're single, or you're like, oh my god, I've been looking forever. Hey, if you really break it down, and I had a wonderful marriage
that had that created two beautiful kids. But at the same time, I don't know if I found the love of my life until I was fifty years old, if you think about it. So, you know, when I hear people that are in their twenties, thirties and forties like, you know, oh my god, gosh, oh my gosh, what was me, and I'm like, hey, you know, I'm just now really to this point in my life at fifty two years old, where I think I got this thing dialed in, so be patient.
Amen. I love that.
And I would just say as far as the empty nesting goes, and I hope my kids aren't listening, but oh my gosh, it's so wonderful what I said.
Jackie Feels said, Hey, I'm in terror. I don't know what I myself. Amen, brother, Oh my god. And I'm sorry, I'm getting a little too excited.
Heart. I love it. I love it as long as my kids are happy.
You know, if one when one of your kids are not happy, then you're not happy. And it's but knowing that they're both good and enjoying their lives and then getting to wake up and not have to raise children. I'm sorry, I'm not sorry.
It's a joy.
There's a there's an old saying, and I didn't invent this, but it is very true that if you put in the work early on with children, you do less work later in life. I feel like I really in the work early on, and so did my ex wife, who by the way, is an amazing mother and still is and her husband. She got remarried. He is wonderful to my kids. Lauren has been an unbelievable addition to my kids' lives.
But putting in that work early on allows you to enjoy this phase of life because they are now there's still kids. My daughter's twenty, my son's twenty two. They're wonderful human beings. And now I'm at the phase of I don't have to parent as much as kind of guide and give some advice. But it's at the phase of we're heading into graduation and he's looking at apartments and trying to get a job, and now it's giving him adult advice on life.
And that's exactly where you are to that next phase. Yeah.
We just spent spring break with my daughter and some of her sorority sisters, and it's just fun. It's a fun stage in life. And I loved every stage. When I was coaching Little League and going to piano recitals. I love that too. But I'm done with that.
You know, like that too.
That next the next time I do that, it'll be with my grandkids. Well, and let's hope.
Let's not lead people on though, Chris, it's still ain't easy, at least for me. Maybe I still feel like, what do they say that a boy's brain isn't developed until he's twenty six, a girl maybe twenty four, and I'd say fifty two fifty for men, right, I mean there's still it still comes with challenges, but there is oh, of course, a freedom you know that I haven't had since I gave birth at age thirty one.
Well, I think that's another identity thing. I think I have to work on not making mother my whole identity either.
Well, and you do, and Lauren and I talk about that, Jackie, and it's something I think it's one of the leading causes of divorces in this country. And you have to be very careful because oftentimes, and oftentimes it is the woman who has stayed at home and has defined herself of being an amazing mom, room mother, running the pta, you know, you name it, just being involved. Well, when that stops, and it doesn't stop in college, it usually
stops earlier. When they get to high school, they just need you less, and then they are driving and they need you even less than that, and it's hard to oh, my gosh, after fifteen years, I have defined myself by being this pillar and now, now what what do I do? And that often causes a lot of strife and contention in a relationship. You have to be very cognizant of that of kind of re entry and helping each other get back over that hurdle.
All of this goes back to what we're talking about in the sense that when you lose the Housewives or you know, certainly a way bigger scenario, you were the host of the Bachelor for nineteen years and that ends, you stop being a stay at home mom. All of this is about I guess identity and so trying to find out who you are before any of this ends, and being enough before that you got it and after it goes away.
I think that's there's a check.
There's a little piece of lead. I'm looking at it right now. It's on my desk behind me, and it sits there and it has for many years. My mom gave it to me. Is what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? And the whole point of that is I've never been afraid to fail. And I don't know if this comes from my sports background. I played sports my whole life and in college, but putting yourself out there on that tightrope and not being
afraid to fall. Some people will keep themselves from ever doing anything in life because the what if, what if this happens? What if I fail? What if I make an ass of myself and I get embarrassed. I have never lived like that. I'm a big optimist. And so as soon as the backsher went away, Yes, I had to lick my wounds and I got kicked in the gut, and it got toxic, and it was crazy, and it was very public, and I had to wait for the turmoil to calm down. But almost immediately my theory and
my thought was what's next. This is just now an opportunity to show everybody what's next. And by the way, Merritt Street has the potential to be a disaster. It could go up in flames. It is a startup. At the end of the day, it is a wonderful startup with a lot of money and some unbelievably big names. Steve Harvey was just added to the roster. He announced that Nancy Grace, doctor Phil myself, Lauren Zima. So there
is some serious ass talent coming to this network. So it probably won't but it's a startup, and trying to start up a network in this day and age is very hard. So I'm putting myself out there in something that I could fail at. You can't sit there and go, oh my gosh, what if something I create isn't as big as The Bachelor was? I can tell you it won't be. I probably will never do another show that has thirty three million viewers watching it, and by the way,
either will The Bachelor ever again. I don't know if anything will ever exist, but having a home run like that is probably once in a lifetime. But it won't stop me from trying to do that again. And I think that is the difference of you got to just you can't care so much about what everyone else is going to say because I know people are going to pan it. I know people will rip me on social media. Who care? So I'm not doing it for you. Just
put yourself out there and get going again. I'm just excited to do it.
On speed Dial, I was going to be therapist Jackie. I was going to say, Chris, you got to talk to more housewives. Yeah, you've got it like this, you are going to be the housewife whisper because I love that thing on your deak me too.
I love that me too.
But you know, just the idea that it's okay and and something else will come, and it may not be people. Not everybody is craving fame and fortune, right so but for you know, those that are not that are just worried about the kids leaving and a new identity that way, But how to feel good about that, How to not define yourself by what's happened in your past.
So when can we watch you? When is it going to be up and running?
April second, the network starts, So we're going up to Dallas Fort Worth, which is where the studio is. It's this amazing five acre facility. And by the way, if you're in the DFW area, Doctor Phil his uh live audience, he's taking his prime So he's taken his show and he's going to take it to Primetime. So Doctor Phil Primetime is kind of his old show but kind of on steroids. And he built this beautiful studio for himself.
But within that there's a newsroom we're doing morning news, evening news, and a newsroom like I've never seen before. There's three or four other sound stages. We're gonna shoot movies and commercials there that can be rented out, and then there's like three or four other just studios, like one will be used for our talk show. And so this facility is unlike anything I've ever seen. And they have live studio audience. You can go check out Doctor Phil.
So starting April second, he'll be doing his show live at Primetime. I will be on some of those shows, and then eventually we'll get the daily morning show going and then also the talk show. But we got to you know, we have to cast the show. We have to staff those things up and get it going. That's going to take a minute. And the great thing with Doctor Phil is this network and this is where to go back to our original conversation. It's so different than
streamers or network TV. It's like, Okay, we have to get institutional money, we have to get advertising. We will get advertising, but we can kind of get our own like we can go out and just cut our own deals. It's really bizarre where he's kind of cut this thing back to the original way TV is done. Of like we'll go straight to a company and say, hey, you want to be a part of our show. Come sponsor our show. We are not owned by bigger conglomerates, so
we are not controlled by a ABC Disney. We're not controlled and so number one, we don't have to speak how they want us to speak. We can cover whatever we want. Doctor Phil can do whatever he wants, so we don't have to go into the principal's office later and say, oh, you don't want me to cover this story. It's too controversial. Oh, your advertisers may not like this, So we won't mention this. And we're not going to preach. We're not going to tell you what we feel. We're
going to just tell you the facts. And Doctor Phil is amazing at that.
I love that so much. Can you get us tickets or no, you hook us up?
Absolutely? Oh we've been so, I've been to a dozen shows and I've been on. I've already taped three or four of his shows and then we go up and depending on the subject matter, I'll get involved. And he's doing some amazing shows and it really runs the gamut
and I've I've loved it. It's you know, he is someone I've admired for so many years, and I didn't realize obviously he was on Oprah before, but The Bachelor and Doctor Phil started the same year really two thousand and one, two thousand and two, and so to be hosting with him, and we're on stage a lot together. It's like this awesome masterclass of like being on with someone who is so damn good at what they do.
And you know, not to pat myself on the back, but I'm really good at what I do, Creed, and so we kind of we really compliment each other and it's kind of that game recognizes game. So I really have a blast.
Well I can see when you're talking about this you are like just lit up, animated SI.
So I'm so.
I'm really happy for you and wishing you and Lauren and doctor Phil all the success in the world.
We can't wait to watch you.
Yes, you guys, our listeners, keep the faith. Man, look at this and you know there's life after life, right, there's just made out of it.
Yes everything. Yeah, oh cool.
Nothing's too big, nothing's too big that we can't overcome it.
Amazing man, you're my new therapist. Well, we loved having you on.
Thank you, Thank you so grateful. Well, congratulations to the two of you. Speaking of launching something that's been amazingly successful. Very proud of you. I'm happy to be even a small part of this endeavor that you two have started, and love you too and wish you the very best.
Thank you, thank you, appreciate it. He was amazing, very inspiring.
Agreed. I really he could be my therapist.
I hope that listeners, you guys, can take away from some of this because it's such a bigger there's such a bigger picture, and it's not just about like what do you do when you're not a housewife anymore? Or what do you do when you're not like you lose a job you've had your whole life.
Even like a friend, like anything that ends, you have to be able to separate who you truly are from that one part.
Of your life.
Yeah, it's really hard. He seems to have like mastered that.
Yeah, for sure. He's just he's amazing, and you're amazing, and you're amazing. Oh, thank you.
Okay, guys, I love this episode, me too, And until next time you to Jersey Jays leave a review. We love you, guys, love us back, and we will see you next time.
Jay's out