Diamonds in the Rough: Trauma Bonds

Hi, guys, Welcome to another episode of Diamonds in the Rough with Me and Erica, and we are bringing on Doctor Nadine aka Doctor Nay.

She is known to her patients as Doctor Nay. She is the real life inspiration behind Naomi Belford's character in The Wolf of Wall Street. I mean, I think we all watched that movie with Margot Robbie and Leonardo DiCaprio, but it wasn't just a movie, it was actually really She survived a turbulent eight year marriage to Jordan Belfort, marked by abuse, greed, and trauma. Following her experiences, Doctor Macuso,

So let's talk.

Let's talk. Hey guys, Hi, how are you?

Oh good, how are you doing?

We're doing okay, but we would love to hear just a little bit of like your backstory, and then we'll start asking questions and doing that kind of stuff, if that works for.

You, sures sure. So, well, you know who I was married to?

Yeah, yeah, and hold on.

He's a motivational speaker now, correct.

Isn't that amazing? Yeah?

He is.

And so you know, I met him when I was twenty two. I was so young and clueless, and this was thirty years ago before and we was talking about narcissism or trauma bonds or anything like that, right, And so then I left him about eight years later and restarted my life in la. I've lived in Manhattan Beach for twenty four years. So my heart is broken for Los Angeles right now. And I went back to school

For any of us that's our listening, Could you explain what a trauma bond is? Yeah, I think people look, I think they have an idea, but from an experts you.

Know, yeah, sure, sure, So a trauma bond is a toxic, dysfunctional relationship between two emotionally attached people. There are a few things that make it different. One of the things is that the pathological person or perpetrator wants power and control over their partner. That is their main mission while they are so much whatever they call in love with this person. Right, But it has to have two conditions for it to be a trauma bond. There has to

See financial power. It could be anything. You think that these.

Personalities know what they are doing or are they just themselves?

I think it's both. They are just themselves. They have personality disorders, so they think this is just who I am, But they totally know what they're doing because they will harm, lie, exploit, and betray anyone in everyone to get their needs met

And almost I'm almost like overly kind overly.

Yeah, overly complimentary, like I'm sure.

That you got all the presence and all the trips and all the shit right right right comfort and made you feel loved and made you feel like it's not that bad. Okay, he doesn't talk to me for two weeks, but I can stick it out right right because.

I would get into a fight and then there would be a horse in my driveway right as about So there were these very so what happens is the extremity of these two behaviors that they exhibit toward us is actually what creates the bonds, because the research shows animal trainers who use intermate reinforcement the animals bond to them two hundred and thirty percent more than just straight kindness.

Wow, are these personalities born or are they made?

I was going to ask, is this learned or is this learned?

It's learned. It's usually learned behavior, or they grow up too entitled, or they're overly abused.

Even though we think that narcissists have these big egos, they're actually the most insecure.

Yeah.

Is that accurate?

Yeah, that can be accurate. And you know, I use the term pathological lover because I think they're much more than narcissists. They usually have some psychopathy, right, That's why sometimes they're criminals. They have sadism, and then they have machiavellianism, which means they're highly strategic and manipulative as Erica. You know, I'm not telling you, you don't know, I'm just maybe giving you names for it, you know.

Just confirming everything that I've experienced.

I know, unfortunately they live through.

Yeah, it's okay, I mean, you know, it's also interesting to speak to someone who's also basically been through the same thing, and it's nice that it really says a lot to your character that you took this experience and really, you know, went to school and are helping other women.

That's right, that's right. And you know they're you know, they're true con artists, right because they wear the mask and I call the two masks Romeo and Dirty John or Doctor Jekyl and mister Hyde. But they can wear that mask and have this amazing public image and trick everybody, but then behind the scenes, you know, be very manipulative and cruel to us, which can make it even more confusing because now we are like gaslighting ourselves like it's not that bad.

It's not that bad. I can stick out. It's really okay, what's wrong with me? I should be grateful. This is better than it could be. You know, it could always be worse. Dah da da da. I think that we as women, or especially women are are a lot more susceptible to this entire thing. And I don't know about your ex husband, Jordan, but Tom had some of the best social skills I've ever seen in my entire life.

Oh yeah, most of the time, there's always an extreme talent involved with this.

Correct correct? Correct? You know my ex is a grandiose narcissist, right, he is the best seller in the world. I mean, who does what he did and write a book and then get the best people in the world to make the book.

Now, he's a motivational speaker.

Yea motivational speaker. So yeah, And that's why I wrote my book because I really wanted to take the stigma away from the victim, because we're constantly asking like, didn't she know? Why did she stay? Instead of asking no, why does he do that?

I also want to know, like what it is, because you know, I have a history in my life of meeting people and thinking that.

I don't know maybe.

It's that I'm not enough and that I can make them better and that I'm going to create this new life, and then that gives me this whole that I'm feeling in my heart or whatever it may be. Yes, yes, what is it that creates us to do that?

Do we all have deficits? And do we all have some form of developmental trauma? And do we all have things that we need to fix about ourselves? Of course, but that's different than pathology.

Pathology.

For anybody that's listening that may may not know, could you explain pathology?

Pathology is someone who's mentally on well because they will use harm and exploit anybody and everybody. You know, we I went into my relationship with the intention to love and connect. That didn't mean I didn't have my imperfections, but it's the motive behind the behavior. I didn't go in to use exploit, betraying control.

I'm going to ask you a question you and this is just I'm asking from a personal point. So okay, looking back, yes, were you ever confused at what you were looking at or what you were experiencing? Even post even looking back now, like, was I really did I miss something?

Did I experience that why what is not clicking? What was true? Really like what was true about my life?

Yes, that is very common, And there's a symptom that's only for from a trauma band usually like cognitive dissionpines. It's called which is the mental confusion that you feel because you're constantly battling is a good? Is he bad? Am? I? Is he crazy? Is a relationship? Good? Is a relationship AAD? And so you have three different layers of cognitive dissonance about you, him and the relationship that keep you totally confused jury And it's one hundred percent symptom after trauma

Yes.

And do you find that it makes people like I feel like in general, ever since I've been a child, I've had a very hard time being present, Okay, conversation, Like if I'm with my kids, that's one thing, but kind of any other situation, it's like my guard is always like I'm here always, You're.

Like you're always being like being feeling hypervigilant.

And yes, and so is that a sign of that?

And then like, I guess that's one question, and then the next question is like, as we're all moving to new.

Chapters of our life, like what is the difference? There's trauma bonded.

And then a word that we hear a lot in twenty twenty four, twenty twenty five is love bombing. I don't fully under Yeah, what exactly is that?

So love bombing is a manipulation tactic, right, So it's working for somebody to buy flowers and take you to a nice center. But love bombing is intense, and it's like constant admiration and adoration and constant texting and where are you? And we're soulmates after two weeks? Right, And I have a saying if it feels too good to be true? And probably.

Yeah, yeah, I think that. You know, it's interesting.

I remember when like Tom and I were married, he'd called me forty times a day.

There I go normal and when you try for me, right.

But it's not normal, it's not healthy.

No.

But in the when I tell people this, they're like, that's impossible. I was like, No, that was how I lived, you know.

I lived like that.

For over twenty year, where I could get the most charming most loving human being, and then there would be this slight, you know, flick of the eye, and it'd be completely different, or I mean, or to wash him twist in front of someone else, like I've seen so many things. But then and I don't know how you felt, but I saw him do really generous things for people. And I'm thinking, okay, let's talk about my Gabellianism or you know, my abilia.

What you know?

What is true? What was true? What was this person's true true personality? Was any of it real? Why was I susceptible to that? Why did I buy into all of that? And why did I defend that? And it's a very difficult place to be, as you know, And when you've never dealt with a personality like this, it almost seems impossible.

Yeah, And here's the thing, right, is that if you are a trusting person, we just assume everybody's like us. We can't even imagine that somebody like this exists until we experience it. And again, it's those extreme kind, generous mixed with the extreme crazy, controlling, brutal behaviors that cause cognitive dissonance, and it keeps you tracked. It's the glue cognitive dissonance is the glue, and when you see them nice,

It almost even becomes more sweet when you see them like, It becomes sweeter and they're nicer, and they're far more loving and generous. And it's the unpredictable element of these personalities is really what drives or at least drove me to be like, what the heck am I dealing with? Right?

Because it's not a psychle because if it was psycho we could predict it. You never know when the behavior's coming.

So that's narcissists actually love you.

Well, you know, narcissism runs on a spectrum, right, So I think there are some people that have severe rigid personality disporters, and they're not going to change, and they're not capable of love the way you and I think about it, because they can't have empathy, they can't have compassion, and love has two qualities, quality of connection and giving someone the space to be who they are, and a lot of times they can't do that, so often they're not capable of loving us the way we need to

I think that they're own version of love.

Like I think that they feel to a point, but ultimately they're going to put themselves or their business or their personal persona on their public persona.

First, right, And yeah, and we're not objects, right, We're like, we're really more like objects to them. And again they will use home, exploit and betray us to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status. And I just don't think that's love.

Is there a checklist or something equivalent to like the signs for somebody to look out for?

Yes, in my book, I have a pathological lover checklist and I have it on my website And here we go. If you meet a guy and they're like, my eggs is crazy, probably a reason why probably made her crazy? Right away, starts to catch them in lies, right, starts to be a little disrespectful, belittling you, blames you for everything, words not matching actions, lacks of more skills or compassion. Right,

I want to ask you. We're talking mostly about men, but this is also true in women. Yeah, yes, so men or you know, anyone that any.

Any sexual orientation, like any you know, any configuration of our relationship. It can happen between Boston employee. It can happen between friends, you know, it can happen in different types of relationships, especially when there's a hierarchical difference right power.

And balance, whether it be financial or you know, professional, that's usually the opportunity for these personalities to come in and get you.

I mean, not get you, but yeah.

Yeah, yeah, you become pray for them and and a lot of times they gain power, Like my ex did because he was so threatening and dominating and intimidating.

I fear him, so did I. Oh, I had severe fear. Yeah.

And when I tell people that, they just kind of look at me like he was an older man, and I was like, yeah, so yeah.

They're so even. So I have a question.

Do you think that somebody that is potentially raised by a narcissist is more prone to then want to be married to one.

You can be more prone because you had, you know, a lacking for a father that wasn't there, or you grew up with some developmental trauma. But in my book, and this is what the research shows, there's a great book called Women Who Love Psychopaths where I got a lot of my research from, and I know it's a

How long did it take you to recover? Oh? How about this? Or have you?

And did you find another person like him right after?

That's what I know. I dated a lot, I had a lot of fun, and then I'm married for twenty three years with my husband twenty five years. It took me, I would say, a few years, and I've been in a lot of therapy.

And what was the final straw?

Oh for me, Well, he kicked me down the stairs when I told him I wanted him to get sober, and so that was beyond scary. And the second straw was when I told him how when he did get sober, how hard it all was. He was like, it wasn't that bad. And that lack of remorse put me over the edge. And then once he got arrested and got an ankle wrestlet, I knew I was safe because he had lost all his power. The power and balance shifted. Yeah, it's like bye bye. So I had three last straws.

Yeah, and you guys co parent, right, you have kids?

Yes? We do?

We do? We do?

And how does that work?

It works great? Because the power and balance shifted, So I kind of got lucky. I always say that he got arrested in a strange way. But my kids are great. My daughter's a therapist, my son's a businessman. Like they're doing great.

I'm happy to hear that. I'm happy to hear that, you you know, are stay happy. Children are wonderful. We came out the other side. But you know, we did a lot of work.

We processed.

We didn't pretend, you know, having to go through something like this which is super public, and having people weigh in not really understanding, uh, you know, where I was coming from or what I was experiencing.

And everything sort of filling in the blanks.

It's very difficult because it oftentimes takes a toll on what am I really going through?

What am I seeing? Like how how do I.

Sift through this this entire blur of a life and really get down to how do I heal and how do I pull myself together?

Because that was the ultimate goal, Like I can roll them.

Okay, you could have control Tom. Oh my god, I just got in control. I mean please, I was.

As good as Jordan, okay, right, Like you weren't controlling Tom and you were not responsible for his behavior. No, and I and I and I know that, but knowing that and feeling that are two completely different things.

Yeah, like and feeling that from the.

Inside out and saying, you know what, Erica, these things happened to you. There was some beautiful experiences, there were some bad experiences, but ultimately that's over and he's gone and you know whatever. But now I have to pull myself together and move forward. And that, I think is like it's the sweetest thing, but it's also the hardest thing because you're totally it's almost like a you have to look back and say what was true about that life and who and what is this?

It can be very heavy.

Well, it is very heavy. It is very heavy. I mean that's the whole last section my book all about healing because the research shows though victims of this sort of abuse, seventy five percent of them go on to experience post traumatic growth if they do the work. So you're going to be in that group. You're going to experience post traumatic growth because you're putting in the work and it is possible, but yeah, it takes a lot of work.

But I also have another question, like there's.

Like we went to like, you know, this whole couple's therapy thing, and it announced me as an introvert, and like it was shocking information for everybody, even though I've been saying this my entire life. I'm like, no, Like, if I'm being paid to show up and do it, I can do it. But like I'm naturally an introvert, so I enjoy my alone time. I need to like

But like.

That is such a confusing part of all of this, Like are you supposed to power through or like are you supposed to give it? Like I don't know, Oh no, No.

I think loneliness is that I was very very lonely, painfully lonely, and I had my kids, you know, and I was like, why am I so lonely? Same exact way you're feeling, Yeah, And I found that I think that's a very normal process of it. I think that we are built for connection. We're social beings and I what really really helped me was journaling. That's what helped me deal with that loneliness. And I think it's a

Thank you the thick of it right now, you know, and it's very fresh and very hard, and I feel for her because none of this is easy and to pick yourself up and like even be on a podcast today and talk about it. You know, Teddy, you need to cut yourself a break. If you didn't say you felt lonely, I would be worried that you were.

Like Yeah, and Teddy, I remember the loneliness being like gainful. I remember like an ink.

And it's a constant ache that I'm trying to like fake my way through.

Yeah.

But then it's like and I have talked about this in therapy. Then it's almost like I'm attracted to like another chaotic situation.

You know.

I don't want to give too much away about my parents or anything like that, but like, clearly my dad was a rock star. He met some girl he met at the Rainbow Room and it was my mom, and they had babies and he was married already.

Like everything was a shit show.

So like clearly there's been a lot of ups and downs in my life, and I my only goal has ever been like I just want to give like my kid's stability. Yeah, And I don't know, I guess I just I don't know if it's loneliness or I feel scared. I also don't feel like maybe I'm enough, you know, like all those things.

Yeah, I mean, what's your listen, let's think about it. So there's loneliness, which is really fear and insecurity, right, But then there is is you know, like reflection, like trying to figure it all out. And then there's a degrief right for the life that you're not going to have anymore. And they're all normal feelings, you know, And that's why sometimes when you leave this very chaotic experience, it's good just to hunger down, be with you and your kids, you know, do what you're doing. But I

That he's always been hard on herself.

Well, the world has always been hard on me.

Nom we got to fire. You're in a critic don't internally you know it's so hard. You guys are in the spotlight. I don't even know how you do it, honestly, But I don't internalize. Everybody else projects all over you, guys. That's all it is is projection.

If you're in a varian retirement and like you're looking to like expand your life in a relationship, like, how do you find yourself in a place where you don't put yourself exactly where you were before?

Right?

So that's why I say, go to therapy. Take your personality trait tests. You have to know your attachment pattern. You have to know your personality traits. You have to understand your developmental trauma. You have to understand yourself before you can really choose effectively. And I have two sayings about that, if somebody can hear you, they can love you. And my husband, my current husband, I'll never forget the first one. We had an argument and I was and

I believe that.

I believe that trusting yourself is the true is the true win in all of this is like being able to say, you know what, Erica, no, that is not right, and being sure, like just knowing it from your gut, like this is not right, that is not okay, or this is right.

You know, this feels good.

That's right? And what's the body? Don't trust the mind because that's where that you go in all the distortions, but the body doesn't lie, like you say, when that gut goes this is right, then you go don't ignore the uh oh, like I did when my ex asked me to get engaged and I said, yes, I grabbed the five carrot diamond. But my gut said, uh oh, So don't don't the guy.

It's easy to be distracted by sparkley things.

So while we're on the topic of some of these relationships, let's talk about some of the high profile relationships that have kind of come to an end this year. We've got Jessica Albat and Cash Warren. They're divorcing after sixteen years of marriage. She said they didn't always treat each other the best before they split, and they had become roommates.

Do you think that's common, especially after having kids or.

Yeah, that can happen for sure, right that, you know, to keep your sex life alive, it takes intention. And if you don't feel emotionally connected, especially women, they're not turned on, right, So I know exactly what's happening with their relationship. But I think that that can happen very.

Readily, Sophie, if you're not actively working on pursuing the intimacy of your relationship, even if somebody is not a narcissist, even if there's not these issues like you're going to have distance.

You're going to have it ends. Also the emotional intimacy. You know what's sexy is constantly revealing yourself and getting vulnerable with more and letting them know you. Yeah.

Then we've got Sophie Turner and Joe Jonas have been an extremely public custody battle. People believe Joe was weaponizing the press against his ex wife. We know now publicly that Joe Jonas, Brad Pitt, and some others they've all used the same pr company, which is I think quite common in Los Angeles.

Yeah, I'm not surprised essentially that.

The question is when you see an ex start weaponizing their partner as a bad parent or this or that campaign.

Oh yeah, yeah yeah.

So what's like the appropriate response when that happens? From silence?

I didn't say silence. Yeah I would. I would not give it airtime because you know your truth, you know the type of person you are, and it'll die down. They'll be in your headsline as we know tomorrow, and I would not waste my breath on that. Like when the movie came.

Out, I'm like, that's right, that's right.

I said nothing, you know what, because I had nothing to say, Now I use the movie and I exploit it to help women everywhere.

That she is the exploit.

But but I wasn't going to have Ben myself because I know who I am.

Yeah, yeah, I tried that. It didn't work out.

Yours was so different, you know, right, you tried to exactly there's our point. There's our point. Didn't work out, right, Like they'll they'll pick some They'll find somebody else to pick on. Go ahead.

Our last celebrity couple we need to discuss are and I don't even know if you know who they are, but.

It's Jax Taylor and Britney cart right.

Which is the question that so many of our listeners have is if you are once a cheater.

Are you always a cheater? Yes?

Yes, sorry sorry doctor No.

I love that you answered yes. And I do know them a little bit because I watch all the crazy people on YouTube that talk about all the reality shows because I'm a reality junkie, so this is so much fun for me. It's my guilty pleasure. So yes, I have heard about them, and I do think unless you like listen, here's the thing. Unless someone makes an intentional decision to change their patterns of behavior you're not going to change, right.

And you cannot control them, no, not even for a second.

Cannot and there's no point in even trying, because that is the That is the one thing I wish women understood is that. And I mean, and when you look at other women going through things, it's like you cannot control your partner.

No, And something that he said, like I knew before we got married and then blah blah blah. I'm like, well, but then you've married her and then you had kids with her, like you made this decision repeatedly.

Yeah. Yeah, Well there's a lot of children running around in adult bodies.

This is true. Yeah, I'm one of them.

Yeah. Same.

I think I just stopped being one of fifty seven, So I get it. I get it.

Yeah, I'll tell you what.

And entering the dating pool or being seen right, So after I've been married all of my adult life, my first husband and now you know, my second husband, and just getting to a place where I feel like I can start to go out or be social or maybe even date someone, which I don't even know how to do, which is fine, but it's interesting because I feel like such a toddler, like I am a child running around

And that's okay, because you know what the best part is to know where you are. I know thyself and that's okay. And by the way, we're all we'reever better or worse. We're all just suffering human beings, and that's okay, like the same. I think once we once people realize that it makes life a lot easier.

I have so enjoyed this conversation too.

I'm like, and anyways, when you become my full time therapist now that you've been on the poden.

Guys know I love housewives, so I'm so happy to be here and happy to support and shop me back whenever you want.

All right, thanks having because I know that so many people would benefit from your expertise.

Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you, please stay safe okay by sending so much love to La.

Thank you all right, bye bye bye