¶ Leadership Changes in Intellectual Property
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys .
We're recording Gwilym . There you go . Sorry , sorry , well done , lee press the button . Yeah , sorry , well done , lee pressed the button . Yeah , I worked out how to press the right button . We probably should explain that we're recording a podcast in person , which is an unusual experience for us , as you said , except in the pub .
Except we're in a pub which , unfortunately , we're not in .
As I jump in ahead , I guess I've already said that we made an early error there . Yeah , no , no , that's um bad tactic , bad tactic , bad tactic and , yeah , terribly um rude , given that we've got guests with us in person as well . So that is exciting . Yeah , how you been . I'm very well , thank you I .
I told you I got something to talk about very exciting new president change of president emotional emotional scenes last night .
Yeah , so this , this podcast to go out in about a week's time and Matt will have just a week left of his presidency , and then we have Bobby Mukherjee coming in in January Excellent , and of course not just a change of president but a change of perspective , because Matt very much private practice , big private practice focus , as naturally he would have , but I
think it's worked magnificently across all of SIPA's areas of work and Bobby coming in from an industry in-house perspective , so that'll give us a different focus for next year , which is good it's brilliant .
We always try and take that into account , but it's quite useful to be told what we need to do and farewell to Daniel it's just emotional scenes the whole time .
So yeah , Daniel , drops off of the officer train Our officers get about three years in the gig . Well , apart from you , you've been an officer forever .
Forever . Yeah , I predate the . I was here before the charter .
I'm in it .
I'm in the original . So yeah , that's all change at SEPA and I think that's for me . That's one of the fascinations about working in the membership association , because you do get this changing of the guard for us annually .
I know some people have a longer presidency that but for us annually and it means that my job sort of reinvents itself every year , which is so cool yeah , definitely so .
Each president seems to come with this not an agenda , but kind of a manifesto manifesto yeah , that's good we need that as well . You need that change , yeah , yeah , everyone should change leadership every year .
Yeah whoever , whoever , absolutely , countries are Countries , absolutely Countries , countries . Would be a good one , wouldn't it ? Not a bad idea .
Yeah , don't get me started . I don't want to get started on politics . No , that's not politics , it's just a base . It's just too depressing . Shall we bring our guests on .
Yes , so you and I were very fortunate to go to Inter back in May , yes , and I think we recorded eight or nine podcasts there , tiring , wasn't it at times ?
It was a bit yeah .
I think we did four or five in one day , which was exhausting , and our colleagues from Inter looked after us magnificently . They did . We really appreciate the opportunity to go there and record the podcast , and so we have Dana and Etienne with us today . Who wants to go there and record the podcast ? And so we have Dana and Etienne with us today .
Who wants to go first ? Who ?
wants to introduce themselves first .
You go . I know I feel like we're playing rock scissors paper , for who introduces themselves first ? I'm Dana Brown-Northcott . I'm the Vice President of Intellectual Property at Amazoncom , manage the Trademarks , brands , portfolio , public policy , from time to time , domain names , internet governance and the like . It's a mixed bag .
I am also privileged to say that I'm the 2024 INTA president , so I'm so glad to hear that you attended our annual meeting . Hope you had a good time . I had a great time and , as you were reflecting on your organization and change in presidency , we've got the same thing . And so here we are on the where are we ? 4th , 5th , 6th December ?
You'll play us a week time . So you know you could consider me a lame duck at this point , because we will have a change in president on January 1st .
Oh , you do January 1st as well .
Yes , she's fantastic . Her name is Elizabeth Stewart Bradley and she is the head of trademarks at Bristol-Myers Squibb , etienne and the like , and INTA are going to be in very good hands with her .
That's excellent , Etienne introduce yourself , sir Sure . So firstly , willem , thanks so much for having us . Etienne Saint-D'Arthur , inta CEO , and I like very much what you said about you know being a , you know , a ceo of a membership association . You know changing president on a yearly basis , which is , you know , always , you know , an exciting experience .
But I like to say that you know the ceo of an organization is always the bad student , is the one that remains , you know the same position and the good students are the presidents who are moving on , so this is where we are I like to think it get away with it again .
I can reinvent myself and no one remembers how bad I really was the previous year . I've been with Lee as honorary secretary for a long time , lee .
You just work . You get the best out of everybody . Oh , thank you .
I don't know if you feel the same , Etienne , but I feel it's a great privilege to be the chief exec of a particular professional membership association and I always describe it to people who sometimes people think it's a bit like being chief exec of a corporate , and it's not . You're more the guardian , aren't you ?
You're kind of looking after this organization for the members and that's a really sort of privileged place to be . I think it is .
It is an extremely privileged position to be , you know , and I think it's probably the same that you have here at SIPA , but our members are very passionate about INTA and we are a staff myself included and we take our role very seriously . There's a lot of fun , there's a lot of work , but , yeah , you're kind of the guardian of the organization .
You want to make sure that it works well , that it continues evolving on a permanent basis , and what is really a unique experience is the ability of you know , in my case working with incredible staff , with an incredible board of directors , with officers , and with an incoming president every year with kind of a slightly different approach , perspective , ideas , and you
learn from everyone .
I personally love it . What have you learned from Dana ?
Oh , I think she's been , you know .
Incredible . I'm not saying .
And she knows it and I'm gonna say to them you know , you know , it was very interesting because the way we we kind of on board the President is , at the beginning of January we have what we call interweek , where we bring all our staff into the office because a lot of people are now working remote and we have the president and the council who are coming as
well , kind of introducing themselves , getting to understand better how we work internally . And it was very interesting this back January . So Dana came in and she had so many questions , but so many great and incredible questions that I thought , hmm , that's going to be an interesting year it's going to be different .
She's going to bring a different perspective , but it's really . You know , it's a joy . And , Dana , what was ?
that experience ? Like for you , I did not pay him to say that . But maybe later I'll try to apply in in the way that
¶ Global Leadership in Intellectual Property
we do at sepa . So we have a vice president for a year . Progress to be the president and then serve another year as the past president . Is that the same sort of arrangement ?
yes , it is , but we also have a longer officer track so we have a secretary , a treasurer , two vice presidents oh wow and then the president is in a non-voting capacity and is able to participate in board meetings for , I think , two years at the end Was it three years and then roll off , but more as an advisor to keep things level , but not necessarily
someone who controls strategy .
So it's more figurehead than leadership , perhaps .
There is also if know .
If I may , no , please . What I think is really nice is that with every president there is a very strong , very solid interaction that has been prepared prior to the presidential year . And then we have weekly meetings . We discuss a lot of things and we're always thinking how can we improve the organization ? What are we going to be doing ?
Of course , you know many people just see , at INTA annual meeting , leadership meeting , there is much , much more .
I mean , here we're now on a kind of what we call a delegation and we've done quite a few of those delegations where , you know , we travel together with some key staff , we meet members in different countries , but we also meet a lot of you know policymakers , you know heads of IP offices .
So there is there is really a bound that is created over time and and a lot of trust and a lot of working together cool .
So it's a core leadership meeting yeah , yeah co-leadership , if I may say when should we start . I'd quite like to talk about the conference . Do you call it a conference ?
Inter Is that what it ?
is Because it's a big old gig , isn't it ?
It was your first one and my second it was my first one .
Yeah , thumbly enjoyable , hugely exhausting because it's so large . Just to walk around is exhausting , isn't it ? How do you put that together ? How , how much work goes into that uh well , it's a lot of work .
We're extremely fortunate to have a very professional team that is looking into the kind of operational side of things , but also , you know , putting the right context so that it's meaningful to the members . And yeah , I mean uh , so you said , your first one was this year okay , was it plant up which was which ?
I went to Barcelona a few years ago . Okay , 2017 . Yeah , Good .
So you know , it's about 10,000 to 12,000 attendees from all around the world , so it's a massive event .
It's like a lower league football game , but for a week .
Depends which team you are . But yeah , it's . We kind of .
You know , we start planning the annual meeting , in terms of the venue , at least three to five years in advance , Because you need to find , you know , the right spot and you know there are a lot of , you know issues that need to be looked at and then , in terms of the programming for the meeting , it's about , I would say , between 14 to 18 months preparatory
work . So it's a lot of work . So by the time you know we get there , we're all already exhausted , but very excited about it and already doing the next one as well . So kind of , yeah , permanently , but very excited about it and already doing the next one as well .
Yeah , kind of yeah , the next three to five Permanently planning . We have an annual conference , and so ours is largely driven by volunteers , so it's our members that drive the content .
Clearly , we have a staff team who look after the logistics and everything .
But yeah so it's a year in the planning . We deliver the conference and the next day they're thinking about next year's .
It's way they're thinking about next year's . It's absolutely the same , really truly the same , and we take the learnings from before and then we move on . Something that I really like about annual meeting is that there's there's something for everyone , really truly .
You're either connecting with your in-house folks , you're meeting outside council that you want to hire in a particular jurisdiction or work through an issue . The content is very rich and at every level , and so you know , entry trademark attorneys can come and learn something new .
Those who've been practicing for a long time can have a different strategic conversation about what they've learned in their practice . And so it is not , you know , it's not all parties . It's a lot of learning , it's a lot of CLE , it's a lot of making connections and , as a result , it makes everything better .
But , lee , to your point , we are a member-driven organization , and so the needs and what it is that we're hoping to achieve coming out of the conference is member-driven bottoms up .
How many members ? How many members ? About 6,500 organizations . Organizations , so it's companies and firms , and I would say we have about 30,000 to 35,000 individuals who are somehow involved in the activities of the association Through those company affiliations . So yeah , I mean through those either company or firm affiliations , and then we're very much committee-driven .
So we have about 120 between committees and subcommittees . Now , not every individual gets into a committee . We have about 4,500 individuals who are on committees . Some are more active than others , so that's basically the membership of INTA . I mean , here in the UK we have about 260 firms .
We have , if I remember correctly , 57 corporations that are members and I would say the UK practitioners are very active within INTA .
Are you going to see all of those while you're here ?
We'd have to stay many , many months in order to do that .
Yeah , my firm sent sent . I think all of our trademark partners are in new orleans recently .
Yeah , yeah , we had our leadership meeting . We take it super seriously .
So I'm a patent attorney , okay , um , so you know there's no p in inter , but I think , I think that it's becoming the ip hub , not only , only the organisation we can get to that , but certainly that meeting is becoming potentially not just the trademark hub meeting but possibly the IP hub meeting .
We can certainly work so .
I'm going on the right tracks because I'm basically , if you're one , in Atlanta . I basically reached out to my US clients and said can I visit you or we can meet at Intune . Yeah , we'll come to Atlanta and suddenly I had all my meetings , all my get-togethers in one place . And this is all . Patent clients , basically .
But we've got to trade my game , or maybe , but you know . But no , you're absolutely right , will . There is no D in Inter , but we do designs . There is no C in Inter , but we do copyrights . There is no D , but we do data privacy .
Do you need some branding advice ?
I think you know INTA has been evolving over time and that was a kind of you know , I think it was a good decision and it was a smart move from the board of directors and the idea was we need to look at IP more from a more kind of holistic approach and really looking at all kind of IP rights .
It's true that you know not really into patents , but even today you know you need to look at all IP rights somehow with some level of connection .
And to your point , yes , there are quite a few patent attorneys that come to our annual meeting , to the point that little by little , we've been adding some sessions that are not necessarily purely patent-related but have some connections with patents , and they're well attended .
We have a patent reception at INTA annual meeting already for years and I've seen 400 or 500 patent attorneys at that reception .
So , yes , that's a fact , that's happening . Next question we can cut if ?
you don't like it .
So who are your competitors on the patent side in terms of providing that global hub ? So we don't look at anyone as a competitor .
That's a starting point and I'm not trying to be politically correct . I think , we truly believe that we all need to work together because it's all about IP and it's all about promoting IP . I think you know the beauty of you know what we have today is that each organization has kind of its niche .
For example , if we look at global IP organizations , I would immediately think about AIPPI . They're great . They're perhaps a little more academic than what INTA is . That doesn't mean that INTA is not doing a very strong , solid academic work , but we're initially we're an association of brand owners and that remains kind of the focus of INTA .
So this is where you know there is a nuance . And then , of course , you know you have more regional organizations , you have more global organizations , you have national organizations . What we like to do is really to interact with all of those as much as possible . We might not be always aligned on everything , but at least the bottom line should be the same .
If I can pile on to that , and this is something that Etienne emphasizes a lot , and this is something that Etienne emphasizes a lot , but as a professional brand owner association . The role of an IP professional is not silent not necessarily anymore and so it's important to think of ourselves as not a four-letter acronym .
But I don't know , etienne , how many other letters you listed out . You said that , william . You said we needed a longer acronym .
It's true , I've got PINDACT . Tell me about it . We need some help you said that , William .
you said we needed a longer acronym . It's true , I've got PINDACT . How is that ? Tell me about it .
We need some help with rebranding , but we are more because the role of the IP professional is changing and needs to do more .
Yeah , so any exciting news about where we might find the inter-annual meeting in the future ?
Is there anything you can share with us ? Breaking ?
news on the 26th , I don't remember . No , the only thing I can tell you is we and this is public we're planning to go to Dubai . I think for good reasons , we decided to move that meeting to 2029 .
Still committed to go to Dubai because the region is booming from an IP perspective and it's extremely important , but it was probably better for all our members to kind of , you know , wait a little more and delay that . That , of course , has opened a spot for 2026
¶ Global Policy Engagement in INTA
. There are many options still on the table , heard , many of them , like you probably have , because this is why you're asking that question , like you probably have , because this is why you're asking that question .
What I would say as well is you know any of those venues , and any venue we pick is normally , you know , a great city to INTA , is a great host , but there are a lot of parameters that we need to consider , and one of the important parameters is to get you know a sufficiently big hotel block .
Yeah , that is , you know , that can accommodate , you know , our community . Now , when members are trying to guess that in advance and are trying and are putting the names out there , that is making our life more difficult to sign those contracts , and that's basically , is increasing the price of the hotel rooms , so it goes against the interest of the members .
Now , it's very difficult for me to explain to every individual who's asking me what should is increasing the price of the hotel rooms , so it goes against the interest of the members . Now , it's very difficult for me to explain to every individual who's asking me what should be . You know so , but trust us , it will be . You know , a great venue .
What we do as well and that's again , you know , something that was agreed by the board is that every third year , we're bringing our annual meeting outside North America , and that's something that we're keeping as a kind of rule because we think it's a great opportunity to interact with , you know , potential new members , new constituencies . We weren't in Singapore .
We perhaps lost some of you know Europeans or North Americans in terms of attendance , but instead we had , you know , quite a few new attendees from Asia , and that's always interesting , as any organization we need to think about . You know , growth and you know what's the future about .
So what are you predicting , lee ? I'm going based on everything you said . I would love to do predictions .
Just explain to us .
Everything I'm hearing is pointing towards Abergavenny . That's what I'm hearing is pointing towards Abergavenny .
That's what I'm picking up .
I don't want to move the hotel market in Abergavenny , but you know , heads up , it's three bed and breakfast , isn't it ? Yeah , you'll be cramming a lot of people into the bedrooms in Abergavenny . Well , don't book that flight now In the meantime , focus on San Diego .
Book your flight for San Diego . It's just . It's always a fantastic conference San Diego , so much to offer and it also has really great attendance , so you'll see the majority of the clients there .
So it enters more than an annual meeting though , isn't it ? So what else is on your radar ? What other exciting things are you doing ?
Oh , so many exciting things , yeah , for the listeners .
Etienne just pointed to me and I gave a big smile like where is it that we start ?
well , let's go back to a little bit of what Etienne was was saying throughout the year that the presidents and board members in Etienne and Heather Steinmeier , who's the director of policy for for INTA we have a number of delegations , and so in in that we're interacting with officials that are in certain countries , as well as our members , and forming different
relationships with those folks who are all interested in working towards IP . This year , I've had the privilege of going to let's see if I can check my passportonesia , japan , france I did go to spain brussels , brazil , india help me at the end . Now it's all going bonkers we were just in germany .
There's some wild hand waving of here .
Here we are in the uk . This . This is my last delegation , and so we're saving the best for last , but that has been truly a big focus of the year is our policy engagement , which is wonderful . Back to being a member-driven organization , the committees are meeting monthly . The work doesn't only happen at the annual meeting or leadership .
All of those folks are bringing up issues , working on projects . And then we have four board meetings a year where we're getting the board buy-in and focus on strategy .
How many ?
members 36 members .
Two-thirds are corporate members and one-third are what we call associates , so external councils , and we try to have . We have a very global composition of the board , so we make sure to have representatives from North America , europe , africa , middle East , asia , latin America all around the world .
That's very exciting .
So you mentioned you going around and actually there's policy as part of your role , to go out there and get that policy across and I'm so relieved to hear that it's kind of a global policy , Because I think that's what the world definitely needs at the moment is kind of non-partisan what's in the best interests of brand owners and the IP system .
But you need a global view on that because if it's national , then there's national interests .
Well , we take a lot of pride in really defending global positions and I always say we never take the , you know , the position of one single company , one single industry sector or one single company , and we pay a lot of attention to that . And in fact , you know , a lot of people talk about the annual meeting and you know , and people having fun , etc .
As Dana was saying , there is a lot of very serious work that is done by the committees throughout the year . Those committees put together recommendations , position papers , resolutions . Proposal from a committee then is kind of , you know , checked by other committees that are kind of relevant to the subject matter .
It goes to the group for approval , it then goes to the executive committee for discussion and it finally goes to the board for approval and if the board is not comfortable with that , the resolution goes back down and you need to rework this , this and that . So you know , every time INTA is taking a position , it's a very solid one .
¶ Global IP Policy Discussed in Conversation
Now we do in terms of policy matters . You know and I'm going to perhaps focus a little more on trademarks now , but I could talk about designs , I could talk about copyrights , I could talk about many other IP rights . We , of course we look at many issues . First , we continue defending international harmonization , which is absolutely critical .
So that's number one , and harmonization is not just about the treaties , it goes far beyond that . We of course internet governance is a big issue and really defending IP interests when it comes to internet , I think it's very important . Of course , we look into enforcement and counterfeiting issues .
We're also very much concerned by brand restrictions and we're more and more concerned about , for example , trade wars and how is that going to be affecting IP ? We look at the impact of technology on IP . Now we're working on a position on AI . There are 15 INTA committees that are working on that position .
So you know , there's a lot of work that is being done and a lot of reports that are being produced by INTA .
And then , you know , when we go on those delegations , it's precisely to kind of you know , share that kind of you know , knowledge and those kind of positions , and we think it's very helpful to the members and it's really , you know , defending the IP industry .
Why don't you talk a little bit more about the position papers that we had before , because I think that would be really interesting to your users .
Yeah .
IP in space .
Yes , Right , that one there .
So we , let's say , on the one side we're looking at position papers and resolutions on the more kind of traditional legal staff , but we also like to , you know , look at ourselves as a forward thinking organization that is thinking a little out of the box , understanding as well how the profession is evolving , how the industry is evolving .
So we put together , for instance , a set of think tanks which were looking at what's the role of the in-house department of the future , what's the role of the IP law firm of the future and what should be the role of the IP office of the future . This is something that we did about four years ago .
There's been additional iterations for some of those , particularly the one of the IP Office of the future . But at the same time we do that , we also like to look at , for example , impact of technology on IP .
So we did kind of a set of position papers on metaverse and IP , nfts and IP , and then we did something that was a little more crazy idea , which was about IP protection in the outer space , and the idea was very simple . You know , we're seeing more and more kind of commercial missions going to the moon and trying to reach Mars .
We know that there is already something about patents , but only covering , you know , the International Space Station , with some kind of very basic rules , but there is nothing else about other IP rights .
So we put together a group of about 12 to 14 experts from all around the world some INTA members , some non-INTA members , some , of course , ip professionals , some non-IP professionals and we asked them to brainstorm and come with a set of recommendations , and so we published a paper that , when then we hand over to WIPO , saying that's something that you might want
to consider for the future , just one example .
I'm trying to think Is this sort of trademark the moon ? I can yeah .
I mean , if you fly to the moon now and open up a McDonald's , you probably don't have to get a license from McDonald's .
Why don't you read the paper ?
first I'll tell you what . That's the answer .
That is a really interesting topic . But , if I can , I'm glad you're also doing the internet , because you know how we know more about outer space than we do our own ocean .
Yeah .
I think we also know more about outer space than we do about the internet . I'm really pleased to hear that you're looking at internet governance , because that is , we need to get long before we sort out space , which is really important . Don't get me wrong , but I think the internet is absolute wild west , completely out of control .
There's different levels of that , but I'm interested to know what are the hot topics in internet governance side of things .
We really couldn't agree with you more .
I'm an ITA , sorry . I saw you putting Amazon to the other side .
As ITA members , we really couldn't agree with you more . We have long been involved in ICANN . Another Internet . Governance Forums . But ICANN is certainly an important one and one where we need more openness and transparency and predictability , for sure .
But , as you probably know but I'll just help a little bit for some of your users who might not know the International Corporation of Assigned Names and Numbers is a member-driven , bottom-up organization , also a non-profit , that has a number of constituencies , an intellectual property constituency . Every government , including the UK government , has an advisor .
There are registrars , registries , other non-profits , other academics , so everybody is exchanging ideas , but with a very different view , and so it's critical that we're part of that conversation .
So as we talk about domain name abuse , as we talk about anti-counterfeiting on the internet , we're there representing the rights of IP professionals , saying these are the things that are concerning to us , and that , in turn , helps inform the academics , helps inform the different governments of what the priorities of business are .
I had an interesting insight on that when I was traveling in Asia . I went to an Asian country and they wanted me to get a visa . And they said you can get a visa online . So I typed in country visa and I got five different websites , each saying that they were the official website .
And I remember thinking gosh , that's what the trademark system started at , wasn't it ? It was an indication of origin , and the internet hasn't got it . You just don't really know who you're talking to . So that seems to be such a fundamental problem with the internet at the moment that I don't know how to solve it .
By the way , I'm assuming that's significantly on your radar , but I don't know .
Well , if you can solve it , certainly let us know . We can use your guidance , but we also need a lot more dialogue there , and so I'd encourage everybody listening to certainly get involved . I mean share your views about how ip should exist on the internet I've got more .
Oh , can you keep going ? Yeah , I'm just looking at our I know we can't do comparative notes online . It's been difficult .
So I'm just on getting that policy together with a whole bunch of different countries and and I think that's great it's going to pull out so many . It's going to remove so many outlying national interests that don't really help an international debate . Conversely , you've got so many voices and we have this in a very small way with SEPA as well .
You've got different points of view and you're trying to come up with a policy position . Do you end up with very neutral positions in the end ? Are you able to take strong stances , or is there always a voice somewhere that pushes you back away from being too adventurous ?
I think we do . I think we do . It's not always easy . You know . Finding compromises is always , you know , a complex issue . Sometimes we upset a little some of our constituencies , which is not ideal , but you know it's , one day it's going to be for you , the other day it's going to be for me .
I think we need to be very respectful of all our different constituencies and all our different , you know , industry interests and we can probably continue doing a better job listening to all and making sure that all are part of the conversation , which is already the case .
But you know , sometimes there's been , you know , some kind of positions that have been a little more controversial internally than others . That happens .
I think the word that Etienne just said there that's super important to underline is conversation . There's very rich dialogue and there are a lot of very smart people who are focused in every committee on bringing forward what's best for IP owners overall and said just that particular position .
Yeah , and so it's that , yes , the deep conversation is the deep focus , is a deep listing that I think overall gets int resolutions to the right result don't you listen to it locally as well ? because I'm not you trying to come to the right result and you listen to it globally as well , because everyone knows you're trying to come to the right result .
That's right .
And in fact , you know , I would add to what Dana just mentioned this is what gives us so much credibility globally with policymakers and with governments , because they can perfectly see that , you know , on occasions in a given country , we're not taking the position that the local practitioners might be defending .
So you know , it's not that we're kind of , you know , self-defending our industry , the IP industry . No , we're really looking at promoting IP to protect the brand owners , the owners of the IP rights , but to equally protect the consumers .
Yeah , so that's something we tried to do here . So in recent years we've had to . We don't tend to use the word rights , but to equally protect the consumers . Yeah , so that's something we tried to do here . So in recent years we've had to .
We don't tend to use the word lobbying , but kind of campaign on a number of issues , and actually you have a more authentic voice if you're not talking about your members as practitioners , but using your members' voices to talk about the broader world .
So what does this mean ?
for society . What does this mean for the economy ? What does this mean for business , rather than ? What does this mean for vested interest ?
Yeah , but I think , lee , on that one , I think what is really important , we all kind of have some kind of , you know , legal background , or we've been practitioners or we're practitioners , but you know , we need to think and speak the language of the industry and we need to talk about economy , we need to talk about growth , we need to talk about jobs , we
need to talk about welfare , we need to talk about innovation , and IP is critical to innovation and that is really what resonates Actually touching on the consumer , the public angle .
You've got counterfeiting as another of your big platforms . Very important , of course . Out of interest . Is that more of a consumer protection angle ? Is that brand-only protection angle or do they become the same thing ? It's both .
It's both . Yeah , it's both . I mean it's consumer protection , for sure . But you know , counterfeiting is also , you know , defending the interests of the companies . But the companies are the first ones that want their consumers to feel safe and comfortable . So you know , that's why it's both .
We had that podcast recently about the baby seat .
Yeah , yeah , yeah .
And there's a huge counterfeiting issue and there's no depth to which the counterfeiters won't sink .
And for me , the lesson in that podcast . This was a lady that then went on to create a novel approach to identifying counterfeiting and tackling it . So having experienced it in her own , business she then looked at sort of strategies for tackling it online , but it was I'm sure she won't mind me saying this it wasn't an obvious . It was a baby chair .
It was a way of securing a baby into a chair . If you haven't got a high chair , it's not the most obvious thing that you would counterfeit . And that's what I find extraordinary about counterfeiting is everything seems to be fair game . Now it's very scary .
You're patent people . What's the value of a patent if the product can be counterfeited ?
Yeah .
And we see that as . Ip professionals . But it's not just about IP professionals , it's about innovation .
It's about research and development . It's about jobs . It's about the economy . For me , that's one , yeah , which is actually so . Dana , reflections on your year achievements , things you wish you could have got done , jobs for elizabeth so many jobs for elizabeth , I'm making a long list .
Uh , yeah , I should stop asking questions of the organization , because then I then I make a different list of priorities . Reflections on the year . How much time do you have ?
Technically we've got about five , six minutes .
And I'm going to be taking notes , by the way .
It's not something like our Etienne is .
obviously it is yes , etienne is extraordinary . I think that few people see how strategic he is , how much of a political operator , how he understands the global economy , how it all fits together and why this matters to brand professionals and consumers , and so the organization is very , very lucky to have him .
And again , he did not pay me to say that You're a great double act , but we're still having beer .
That's right .
Folks should really , truly understand that the organization is in good hands as a result of Etienne's leadership
¶ Intellectual Property Leadership Reflections
. Other reflections on the year there's so much work to do , you know , on behalf of IP professionals , that I think we're only just cracking the surface , and if we think about fit for purpose , three to five to seven years on , there's a lot of forward thinking that needs to be done , and I think that INTA is leading the way .
You know , we highlighted IP in space . We're thinking about novel IP rights . There's much more to be done . But something else that has really surprised me is the depth of commitment amongst our members that we've been meeting along the way . I just , you know , gave a list of the countries that I've been to . I wasn't able to go everywhere this year .
We all split things up . Etienne has been to China two or three times . We really , truly cover the world , and I was struck on our visit to India in October at the involvement at the committee level by so many folks in that country . The weight of that , the commitment of that , is really extraordinary , and so that's something that has stuck with me .
There's so much more than what you see in a annual meeting .
Can I just sort of develop Willem's question a wee bit One of the things that we've tried to do at CIPA and we've been successful in doing . Historically , if you look back at the past , the presidency was seen as something that perhaps one would take on towards the end of a career .
So it's moving towards retirement , or in the earliest sort of years of retirement . You do your year as SIPA president when you can be the kind of the leader , the figurehead and that kind of thing .
In recent years , certainly in my time here we've tried to move it towards something that people can do whilst they are still working , and I'm conscious that you've done that . So you've you've had a your time as a working president . How have you found that the balance ?
Because you've still had a day job to do , yeah , I really don't like the word balance because it implies there's a equivalency all the way across the board . Balance doesn't always mean you get it right a little bit more harmony , like an opera .
You hear some more trumpets , sometimes you hear more guitar . Well , you know , interests are very aligned . I've been at Amazon for 17 years . I've been an INTA member for 24 .
It is my INTA involvement , what I've learned at INTA , that has helped , you know , shape the IP strategy of our company , and I look to INTA to help train some of our early team members on , you know , how is it that the law actually works internationally and why ?
And so this has been great for us because it's , you know , opened our eyes a little bit more to what is going on globally . That's for sure . But in terms of the , you know , the harmony or the balance , a lot of the interests are most certainly aligned .
And then you fill the cracks where you can yeah and hopefully you know , take that long-term focus of what's the , the three-year plan , work backwards from that to mechanize that and that helps you remain organized in both places .
But I will say that I I've not done it incredibly elegantly I am I'll speak out of turn because I shouldn't speak for my sort of current and past presidents , and actually william will have a perspective on this as well I what I've seen in secret presidents who are also working , is that in their day jobs they've also become more strategic , so that they've been
able to take from the presidency this exposure on a kind of a national and international scale and take that back into the day job , and I'm pretty sure most of them have become more strategic in their thinking and more statesmanman statesperson-like . Is that something you've found ? Has it enhanced your job ?
You're very statesperson-like , we think . I think we'll see .
Ask me again in a year or two and then we'll see . But to your initial point , traditionally we saw people at the end of their career . Hopefully I'm just getting going . There's so much more work to do .
There was nothing hidden in my question . I don't think so .
If I may you know and witnessing quite a few presidents you know by now , I think you know and talking about you , this past year , you know , dana has been an extremely engaged president , and this is what we need as an organization . That I enjoy as a CEO , because you need presidents who challenge you .
You need presidents that give you ideas , that provide you feedback , that care about the organization , and this is the beauty of INTA presidents they really care about the organization , they care about the members . It's all in good faith and it's how can we do better , and this is really highly motivational for you know all the staff , myself included .
We all learn from each other , so remarkably so . I talked earlier about the officer track being about five years .
Yeah .
And so you really work with . You know past presidents for five years , yeah , and so you really work with you .
Know past presidents for five years and now we're working with who's coming for the next five , and that gives a lot of consistency to the organization but also a lot of good , deep conversation about where should we go and why should we go there and how do you get that ?
um , so one of our challenges always is to rejuvenate . So we have a council , not a board , but it's a similar governance organ . In that sense , for me , one of the challenges is to for that to renew itself , so perhaps for people to realize it's time to move on and to encourage other people to come in . How'd you get that right ?
How'd you get that move out ?
you know , at IATA it's an extremely well-oiled machinery . So you know , we were mentioning before that the board is composed of 36 directors . Two-thirds are corporates and one-third are firms . Then what happens is that one-third of the board is rotating every year because the board term is three years . So you know , there is a permanent kind of you know evolution .
And on those three years they have to drop off or they could restand .
No no . So after three years they drop off yeah yeah , they drop off and then the officers , as Dana was saying , are on a kind of longer track . But there is a good reason for that because you need to get prepared to become president of the association and you're a committee member . You're kind of , you know , identified as a potential leader .
You become potentially a subcommittee leader , then you become a committee vice chair and then you become a committee chair , and after doing that is when perhaps you're being identified by the nominating committee as a potential candidate to sit on the board one day , and so that's the way it's working . It's quite well organized .
So I'm conscious . So I'm conscious of time . One of my jobs is to be timekeeper , isn't it ? It's much easier when you're in the same space . It's so much easier to control the time . We've asked you lots of questions . Are you sat there thinking thank god they didn't ask us that one is there anything you want to give us .
We're not hiding anything , so you can ask whatever you want . You asked me about annual meeting .
Yeah , what else ? I did have one more question in that case , because I've seen you with lots of presents who's your ? Favorite ?
oh no , that's good to put him on the line , elizabeth no , I would say it's again .
It's . It's a real pleasure . But , like you said , lee , you know , having you know a kind of new president every year is a great experience . But , more importantly , the ability of working with the officers and with the incoming presidents for a set of years is absolutely delightful .
We have the best job in the world , don't we ?
We have a very nice job . I don't know whether it's the best in the world , but it's a great job . And what is really nice and I suppose it happens as well with you guys but you know , we become real friends .
I mean there is a lot of you know , we spend a lot of time together , we go on delegations , we work on difficulty issues , so there is really , you know , it truly is a big family .
So we're coming towards the end , okay , and you're not going to give us any more . We've worked out that there's no quick giveaway that's coming . So Gwilym and I do this thing Always easier to do when we're on Zoom , because we can , in the chat bar we can drop one other suggestions and things we're quite like .
Ending on a bit of a tangential question that maybe isn't too related to um , to what's been going on in the conversation itself , but there's a little bit of a connection . I've got one . I don't know if it's going to work , so let's play mine out , and if you've got anything better , we can do that . Okay , let's look . Well , let's do mine first .
So I've is cufflinks okay , so yeah so .
So for the listeners , it's a pair of yellow ducks , much like the ducks that I've got in my bath at home . So the way this works is I ask grillum , we'll ask you the same question , and then grillum will throw it back at me what's your most unusual item of clothing ? That that you occasionally wear ?
oh , I've actually got a really cool leather jacket that I bought ironically about 15 years ago for a fancy dress party and it's a 1970s brown leather jacket massive lapels , big buttons on it . It's german , it's called echte leder written inside . I don't know where it came from , germany it was . And a cow yes .
Right , we've kind of narrowed it down anyway , but um , and I got it from a vintage shop and I wore it ironically to this party , the 70s party , and now it's the trendiest piece of clothing I've got and I can't wear it because my kids keep pinching it . So that's my esoteric piece of clothing .
I know you're going to have something horrible , so we'll come to you later .
So , etienne , other than your sort of sparkling choice in cufflinks and I imagine you've got a variety of couple , I imagine I'm guessing it's your thing anything else you'd like to share with us ?
yeah , well , I mean those , you know those kind of ducks . They're my daughter's favorite ones so you know , she's always telling me that take them with you and uh , and I like that , I like to be a little provoked . I'm a very classical person but I like to have a little touch of you know , provocation .
You know , today I forgot my pink fountain pen , but normally I'm having a very flashy pink fountain pen and now I've become a little more boring over time . But in the past I used to really like wearing pink trousers , orange trousers , light green , always with then grey or blue , so that kind of little contrast . I can see where your question is going .
While you were talking about your leather jacket , I was immediately thinking about my ugly Christmas sweater collection .
Oh , collection I do collection .
I do know that you also have ugly Christmas sweater parties here in the UK , but my collection is building and so for that everybody should be worried .
Everybody wants to have crown jewels .
Oh , I have a fantastic green one with a Christmas tree on it where the Christmas ornaments light up .
That's very good , oh cool it's quite dizzy , it's nice .
Lee , can we not do shoes , or is it going to ?
be shoes . No , it's not going to be shoes . Oh , excellent .
I was just thinking of not do shoes , or is it going to be shoes ? No , it's not going to be shoes . Oh , excellent , just so you know these shoes . Oh my golly , golly go .
I have quite a line of outrageous shoes . Usually they come out you haven't been fired by CPAP . No , no , no . Well , it's taken them a long time to get used to it , but now it's expected at conferences ah , ok plus walk on music .
I always come on to walk-on music .
But the other thing . So when I was getting into the sort of what does it mean to be a chief exec ? So this was in Job Before Zip-Up , I did a little bit of coaching with a lady and she was brilliant . And so she said , as a chief exec , particularly if you do public speaking , I do a fair bit of it . You need to point the difference .
So you trousers and your cupboards . So mine is not perhaps close , but it's my stick . So I carry a very long stick . You've seen my stick . I carve them . I make them myself , so carve a spiral up it . My current one's got an old mascot off of one of my first Jags . That's got a Jag on top , but I'll say my current one .
It was put in the storage area where all the stuff was coming back to sleep , but when we got back someone had taken it and it was my pride and joy .
I'm sorry . I mean , somebody loved your stick . I'll make another one .
I keep looking on eBay because it's so obviously mine . If it appears on eBay I'll recognise it and it's just search for jaguar walking stick . But I've not yet , I'm not yet seeing it yeah , so I was back in the house , yeah yeah , do you want to do your question or no ? no , we're good , we're good , we're good , okay . Oh , thank you both .
So much for for coming in and showing your toddlers . Hopefully you've enjoyed it . Uh , we like , we like these . We like these things to be enjoyable . Uh , how much more time we've got in the uk till well , sunday for me and I think for you as well , sunday for me as well . And then back home . Yeah , the tour is finished , back home for Christmas .
What time for Pine Lab ?
Unfortunately not . We would love to , but we have to meet corporate members . So you know , we are kind of , you know , back to back .
But you know what We'll ?
do that in San Diego A rain check .
Rain check . Well , actually , not a rain check for San Diego , but a sun check for San . Diego , I know for sure , but we'll take you up on it .
That's a wrap . All we need to say is , if you've listened to the podcast and you've enjoyed it in the way that we enjoy making them , leave us a little review on the podcasting platform of your choice , and that will mean even more people will find it , and we very much hope that you'll take the podcast back with you and share it in the intercommunity .
Absolutely , we'll do that .
Thank you so much , thank you for the invitation Bye .