¶ Podcast Introduction and Welcome
I don't understand what's going on . Explain it to me . What are you talking about ?
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys .
So , gwilym , on the podcast now , this is quite exciting for us because we've always wanted to do a podcast mash-up , haven't we ? Yes , and we've got the opportunity to do it now , right , because we've got one of the world's foremost podcasters .
Indeed , indeed , it's huge , it is huge , yeah , yeah , yeah yeah , I'm going to now worry about whether I'll get your name right , willem , because Will Willem told me a little joke before we came into the podcast . That's not fair . So Willard Knox , yeah , yeah .
So in the UK we have this saying about coming from the school of hard knocks and he said you could come from the school of Willard Knox .
Sorry , I wasn't going to share that .
I usually get Fort Knox or this will probably get edited out the movie Willard , the famous horror movie from the 70s which I remember seeing . Guy Willard is the main character , bruce Davison brilliant actor , and he has trained rats who kill . And then , of course , there was the sequel Equally Beloved Ben . Which is the Michael Jackson song .
I'm sure I'm going to get fired after recording this podcast , but you know , Ben , the song Michael Jackson , the take Anyway . So I was expecting when you said that here we go with Willard .
I haven't heard it for a while .
But see now , you know .
So welcome to the podcast .
Thank you for having me . This is awesome .
We're aware you do a bit of this thing as well , so you're used to it I mean it's a place to start . I mean we have a backstory , we have a reason why we started podcasting .
¶ Origins of Two IPs in a Pod Podcast
It was something that we were always going to do , but then the pandemic came along and gave us the time and the space to do it .
Because you know , there we are .
Gwilym was in his wherever you were . Attic luxury , attic that was my luxury attic .
I was in the garden shed . I was in my boutique cellar .
And it was like let's give this thing a go , never expecting it to take off , Never expecting it to be like 175-ish episodes down the track . I'm hoping it will take off .
I think it's cross .
I think after this episode it's going to go viral .
But I don't want to toot my own horn , and it's developed over time .
I think I've said this to you before , but I've listened back to some of the early ones and now what we do . Now we're so much more professional . We understand how to make it work for our guests and all that sort of thing . How did you get into it ? Tell us the INTA story .
So the INTA story started before I was involved . It launched in 2018 . And the idea was I mean , I was working there , but they had another podcast .
I was like what are you going to do Not for long ? Where are they ?
now Exactly , and you see how that worked out . No , I shouldn't say that , cut that , cut that , but the idea was they were they wanted to talk about brands , but also innovation . Yeah . So the idea was when I first heard the name , I thought , well , brand new .
You know , you always say like it's , like you know , etsy or something new out of the box , like brand new .
So they took that and the clever thing was to throw in the little ampersand and say , well , we're talking about IP and brands , but we also want to educate people about that , but we also want to talk about what's the latest thing , For example , you may have heard a little something about AI .
It's getting a little buzz not too much right now , but it seems to be surfacing as a topic . So you know , the idea was to kind of cover both those things for IP lawyers , so for preaching to the choir , to say like brands are great and we should protect them , like yes , yes , I agree , my clients agree .
But also for people who know nothing about IP and or think IP shouldn't exist or it's a problem or it's getting in the way , to say , like you know , I want to learn a little bit before you have that opinion .
Do you know how ?
I know you're a pro Because you've been banging the table ?
No , but then you stopped yourself .
I saw you , no , no , with your beautiful brass . Oh well , thank you .
I saw how you stopped that , that's pro . So we're not normally sat around a table with those kinds of things happening are we ?
This creaky chair here is horrific , so it's interesting .
We do very few of these in person . Yeah , yeah , yeah and they're always slightly more difficult to do than the remote ones , because when they're remote , I mean we can send one of our little messages in the chat bar and stuff like that .
How quickly can ?
we get through this one . I just remembered I have a loaf of bread in the oven . I've've got to go , yeah , yeah .
Talk to us a little bit about sourcing guests . How do you ?
¶ The INTA Podcast Story
identify your targets . Well , my brilliant producer , who you met earlier , slash co-worker , tracy Ayers , she really does all the sourcing , although I'm going to take a little credit . I recently found a guest who oh right , that's the best I can get .
Yeah , I just love being able to say that my producer .
You know , I found someone that I won't reveal , but I'm hoping we're going to get that person on an episode soon that I had heard . It actually had a CLE for the Copyright Society , right Another IP association and it was great , talking about music and IP and I was like , well , well , this is perfect because of the world IP day and all that stuff .
But we put him on hold because we were doing the opposition band , which is the INTA member opposition TM . So really I just kind of show up , I suggest people , so I hope this person will . I'm pretty sure we will get him slash her . I don't want to reveal too much identifying information , but you know .
So she really does that and then I help out when I can . But it's been great because I just kind of show up and she tells me here's some research , here's some planning , you know , but can I just go ?
in and do it , you bring some energy . I can feel that that's amazing , yeah , to be fair and ours , so we made this .
The idea early on was for it to be a double hander kind of host thing .
I don't want to say I'm jealous of it , but I have co-hosts , you know . Heather you , matt , and we never host together and . I love this .
I think it just brings a different energy than the you know , because every now and then one or other of us gets a bit of a dip and we just the a dip . The other one knows and takes it on .
Oh , a bit of a dip like you , like I'm over that yeah , never total boredom yeah yeah , why did we invite this ? Guest , but also what works for us , because I mean , gwilym is obviously the cast I&IP professional patent attorney of many years . Yes , many years my background isn't IP . I've been with Sleeper 13 years but my background is education .
I know I was so interested .
I was like your story is really take over and do some questioning , if you want . Yeah .
I love that . It's so interesting ?
no , it's just that you don't it's great to see someone who's not you know who went a different way .
I love that I can ask the kind of elephant in the room question sometimes .
Oh , right , yeah hang on .
I don't understand what's going on .
Don't explain it to me . What are you talking about ?
Yeah , Especially when it gets into , like the hard tech areas or initialisms and acronyms Converse .
Yeah , when it comes to anything about ethics and morality , I just hand of the league and I don't understand that stuff at all it goes well , so but we do , I mean , you don't do a lot of research , do you ?
I think it's fair to say no , I do quite a bit of research , so that's the other thing we do .
We kind of make it work that way around .
Yeah , got any kind of backroom stories you can share with us .
I mean , I wish I did you know , I really I was like I could just make something up , you know . When so-and-so was on , you wouldn't believe they all have been
¶ Sourcing Guests and Podcast Dynamics
really smooth for me so far , you know . So we'll see if that continues to play out , and I don't actually know .
I mean , if something goes wrong , I assume it gets cut yeah yeah , I'm pretty sure , there are things that I've said that were not controversial , but , as you can tell , I'm a little , you know , chatty , so they're like , okay , we can't do this for three hours , so let's cut that section . But it's always kind of fun to see what does make it in .
You know things that I think , oh , they're going to , you know , like in the opposition one , which is not to push that episode on you , but I found out one of the guys , jason Vogel , also is a biker motorcycle guy . Yeah , yeah . So I asked him about that and he talked about it that they kept in . That's cool .
The infringers ? Yeah , so the opposition one is with the band to me , yeah , it's with two of the co-founders Jason Vogel , richard Disman .
Jason Vogel , richard Disman . I'm going to get that wrong , but I'm pretty sure that's right . Who's in Germany ? Jason's in New York with me . The third guy wasn't able to join us because he was in Asia and it was like 3 in the morning or something .
But yeah , it was a ton of fun . You know , we saw that we were looking at the list of band members . Oh , it's extraordinary .
It's an operation .
Yeah , yeah , yeah , members , it's an operation , yeah , the operation of the opposition . Yeah , so much going on . Yeah , yeah , must make rehearsal quite difficult well , that's the thing too .
Especially during covid , it was like , how did you guys do it ? You know , and they they have two videos out on zoom , not so two videos they created , which is great , yeah , but yeah , they had the same thing like oh well , we had that issue because we had an office band in my , my firm .
Oh okay , I'm trying to rehearse , you can't ? The lag makes it absolutely impossible . We managed to put one song together , but it took one person almost 24 hours of editing to get all the parts to fit together . Yeah , yeah . So we did do that sea shanty though .
Have you ever saw that oh ?
I did see the sea shanty .
We did the sea sh was really good fun . Actually just four voices and that was a lot easier to edit oh , oh , yeah , it's somewhere , I can see it . It's somewhere online oh , I'd love to see it . Yeah , yeah , yeah .
And also actually you know you both talked that sea shanty is very interesting because we we were chatting , we're chatting over zoom in deep , deep lockdown about doing a sea shanty and then also chatting about all what life was like , and we actually got onto the conversation about what you're going to do when this is over and that's the song .
So it's like a little historical document of what people were talking about and basically the theme is we're going to go to the pub . Basically the whole song is we're going to go to the pub when it's all over .
But it's funny to it because some of the things you were wanting to go to a crowded room I know is one of the lyrics and think , gosh , you know who wants to go to a crowded room , but back then it's like I want to see people anyway it's interesting , it's become a podcast about us .
We'll let you speak in a moment we should talk more . I think it was the Leeds . We do regional events with our members and I think it was our . Leeds regional event and I was chatting to one of the members there and he said do you know what you guys are actually doing on the podcast or what's that ? He said you're actually making a social history of IP .
That's on the wall . Yes , that's interesting , yeah , and all of a sudden I felt a sense of purpose About time .
No , you're right , you talk about what's topical . And then actually , I was just here we go , I'm talking again . I was listening into a really good comedy podcast , but they started in deep lockdown as well and the conversations they were having it was a different era of it .
That's going to come back and you'll be able to go to those resources and say that's what was going on , right ?
right , so let's get serious about the I-N-T-A .
Okay okay .
I've learned that my serious voice okay , I need to say I-N-T-A and not Inter .
I've learned that today .
Actually , I thought so too , but I was told by a very senior officer at the organization which I'll remain nameless , she wouldn't care that you can say both .
I always thought they
¶ Social History of IP Through Podcasting
were debating information .
Yeah , I'm deeply confused .
No , no , well , the thing was too like . People would say I'll see you at Inter , and I thought , well , if it's a trademark , shouldn't you say I'll see you at the Inter meeting .
Yeah , you know , right , you know what I'm saying Very good .
But I think the bottom line is people are like we don't . We call it Intar Just to add complexity to the debate .
I would love it , like some people call us Kipper , I would love it .
I would love it .
Yeah , start a trend .
See if it takes . Can I get back to my serious ?
question oh , yes , yes . I'm sorry If you're going to be a podcast host for a moment you interrupted yourself . I'm sorry . What was ? My question going to be . It was the void purpose that got me to think about this . So we quickly found that what we started off not as light hearted , but it was never meant to be really serious , was it ?
It was never meant to be formal has become for us a central plank of our communications strategy plan it's now . If we stopped doing it , we would lose something which is quite cool , isn't it ?
Is it the same at INTA ?
Has it become strategically ?
important . I mean , I hope so For my own sake . No , no , I think it is Because I think you know I was talking to my producer , tracy , about this and saying , you know , being a lawyer myself , I mean lawyers like read all the time right , and trademark administrators .
It's like you're in front of a screen , you're reading , reading , reading , reading , reading and you're absorbing . It's so refreshing . I like listen to people talk , do it in a conversational way , even though you both know that it , you know , sounds conversational but it's rigidly rehearsed and you could learn something about IP without it being like . You know .
It's a nice break and I think that , to me , that connection I'm sort of not answering your question , but I'm trying to the connection with other people , even on a podcast or something I feel like .
I learn better , yeah , yeah .
I'm a freak because and I'm going to just say it on this- you can leave it in there . You know , in law school I would have wouldn't been told before like the socratic method . Oh my god , the paper chase .
It's awful they're gonna ruin your life you're gonna be .
You know , I thought it was kind of great and maybe it was the actor in me , but I felt like I learned better that way , like like a conversation was how I , I , I studied all the time . It didn't matter hearing that , having that dialogue or a conversation , this , you know it's a human , that human connection , you absorb it .
So I think it's to me it is a central plank of the communications platform for I&T , because you've got the website , you've got the emails . You know this is something , but this is on Spotify . I'll just mention , since you asked , you know this is something , but this is on Spotify .
I'll just mention , since you asked , you know Spotify , apple Podcasts , like you can find us in more places and I think that's a good thing and also people can access it , so I tend to listen to podcasts when I'm running or doing a bit of fishing or something like that .
Yeah , yeah and it organically just seems to embed itself in my brain without me needing to do too much yeah brain without me needing to do too much . Yeah , I've got three questions coming out , that little kind of piece that you did there . I know william's got one of them written down there , so I'll leave that one .
I'll leave that one with you so you can read that upside .
That's because I can't read that the right way up .
So I'll let you come in in a minute . I'll let you speak again in a moment I'm not gonna be happy .
I'll have a dip so yeah
there it is . There's a dip I have to use that later .
No , I'm sorry , trace , I'm having a dip , just moan silence .
So you talked about the , so we work quite hard at it being a conversation . And sometimes people don't understand how much work there is in it ? No , it is , it really is One of the things that we don't particularly like but occasionally people come along with are scripts .
Do you get guests that sometimes turn up and they've actually got a script that they're going to work to , regardless of what you ask them ?
no , I mean , we usually write them and I'll send them to people and say oh , it's just a conversation we do all of that and then I say but if you veer off of this , we're going to cut it .
You'll never appear again but don't worry about it , no pressure no , no , we haven't had that .
Wow , oh , like , here
¶ Willard's Acting Background
are the things they want to cover ?
Yeah , but they tell us what we're going to be saying as well . Yeah , yeah , yeah .
These are the questions you're going to ask I hope it's somebody .
I know that's crazy . Yeah , I'm not worried . Should we be the names ?
later I'll be like uh-oh , no , it's all right .
Wow , we're very open to it .
we just totally go off script instantly we totally go off it yeah if you come up with a script , there's no way we're sticking to it , so that's almost the reason to be like okay , you brought the script .
I'm sure some people just say what they were going to say anyway , word for word . Whatever we say , pretty much I reckon they just read out what they were going to say a great question Intellectual property .
You're like wait a minute ? Wait a minute .
Right , you're like . The answer is you're like okay , but the other thing is that's kind of sad , though there's no fun in that .
You said . You said when I was in law school .
So tell us a little bit about your professional background I mentioned earlier . You know I was for many , many years . I can send you my list of credits . It's short but meaningful .
No , we didn't ask you about that . Keep going . We're coming back to that . We're coming to that .
I was really a theatre person loved it .
I was actually a triple threat , which is an objective truth . I could sing , I could dance , I can act .
I can still sing . I can still sing actually .
So you're better than Fred the St because you can dance and could act a little , not at that level , can we ?
stick to my question , which was a little bit about the legal kind of side of the story .
You know the true story is , you know , there's the official , like what I say and to people , but the you know , the real truth is I moved to New York to be an actor and I had friends who are still acting from Juilliard and they're brilliant and it's really hard it's . You know , I used to get mad at my dad .
He'd be like you know it's going to be a hard life and I'd be like shut up dad . And then my friends who were doing it with this credential , you know , this amazing experience .
It's a life you really have to commit to it and I felt like nah , and they were like traveling all over and I'm like traveling , okay , and then you have to sell blood in new york . I was like that that just sounds like a lot . So I kind of I'm being a little flip .
But you know , I kind of made my way into law because I thought , well , I , like you know , I had lawyers in the family so and of course I always thought I'm never gonna do that . So , you know , it was kind of a natural thing and I loved writing , which is something I didn't as an actor . I just didn't really do .
I mean , it certainly turned out to be something that was beyond what I would have imagined , you know . But I'm sitting here with you guys in part because I went to law school , right , yeah , yeah yeah , it's kind of the best of both worlds . Like I do not get let go of that license .
But it's great because I don't have the pressure of clients , you know , like real people who want me to do things . But I still have the license , I'm still in the world and I've been able to use that degree to do other things which I would not have been able to do with just my honors bfa in acting .
So that's been kind of great , you know can I ask you about the acting cool , it's so cool . So , julie , are you at julie also ? You know , I didn't get in .
I didn't that's a fancy drama school kind of yeah , yeah , very famous like a lot of the people like oscar isaac you may know from the star wars and other things a lot of famous people graduate there . I mean people who are not famous also , but it's like the kelsey grammar , oh . Yeah . Uh , you know , like a lot of famous people graduate there .
I mean people who are not famous also , but it's like the kelsey grammar , oh yeah , uh , you know , like a lot of sort of uh , you know , it's sort of like the , like the harvard , okay , I would say of , of , um , of acting training I mean there's yale I would like to go on there too , which is meryl streep . Okay , how much time we have , meryl streep .
You know ? John turturro , people like that , yeah , julia was more like the . If you want to be a classically trained American actor and do Shakespeare , kevin Kline you know ? Oh , really . Yeah yeah , yeah , that was sort of . That was the place for the . You know are going to do Shakespeare in the Park .
And so you mentioned that you've got a range of talents there . So are you in musical theatre more or all different stuff ? Well , as you mentioned , I was .
I did a lot of musical theatre . Right , because I just completely loved it , Like singing is such a total blast . Yes , I did a lot of Shakespeare . I did Iago and Othello , which was I'm sure I have . The local college reviews were very , very , If they're online , which I'd be surprised if they were he was really good until he started singing and dancing .
That wasn't in the play came here for legal advice exactly .
Oh , I never thought about that when I was in practice . I could have just like right in court in New York court , just been like your honor , just breaking . Can you imagine ? I mean those New York judges would have been like bailiff remove him that was it .
I was really interested .
I did Greek Tragedy also . In was really interested . I did Greek Tragedy also in which I did sing . I did a production of Persians . This is totally going to be cut right .
On .
Aeschylus like the first surviving Greek Tragedy . Persians , I played as they did in the original because there were no women because you because there were no women ? Because you know doing women can't do that role they're too busy doing other things . I did the queen and then I did her son .
So the first time I was the queen , and then the , and as the son I sang and danced . I mean , it was about death and dying , but you can still sing yeah , you can sing and you dance .
Just more sympathetically right , exactly yes sad dogs .
I've got one of them . You had a question , there was a question brewing and all of that oh sorry , there was nothing to do with that at all actually .
No , we kind of jumped over a little bit about the name of the podcast actually yes , yes , you mentioned the ampersand , but brand yeah , it's up here in the booth .
Yes , yes , there it is it is quite clever , not brand new , a piece of
¶ Behind the Podcast Names
the board I love that .
No , I do love that . I'm not just saying it because I'm a guest . I think that is just , can I say , adorable . It really is . No , no , it is , it is we were quite .
Occasionally you get guests on that are quite prestigious , don't you ? We had quite a well known UK political commentator come on , yeah , yeah , yeah because he also he does myth busting and and stuff like that and they've done some work around IP .
So we had him on to talk about that and the first thing he said to us was this is best name for podcast , but I think , brand new is better brand new is much better .
Yeah , it's really brand new , just my own product . But I think you guys are and you've got that cute little graphic . I mean , come on .
I have to whenever I get my glasses done same glasses , so I look like my media image now it's ridiculous . But yeah , no , it's great . Then I mean brand new . It's clever it . You see it first with brand new and then it jumps into yeah , yeah done actually , and it's got meaning as well yeah , I'm like two ips in the pod , it's just a good joke .
So we have a backstory which don't often tell on the podcast about that , and that's that .
It wasn't our original choice of name oh , so we were going , so we were going to be Idea Suit , if you remember , and you got sued . No , no , well , no , no .
We found that there was someone who was using it on . Was it Instagram or something like ?
that he had a very small number of followers .
Oh wow . So we were in the IP space , you're not just going to trample over . Someone Right reached out and we said look , you know , we're kind of invested in this . We like the name , you know . Quite happy for you to carry on , but do you mind if we do this ? And he said well , actually I was thinking about doing a podcast in the future .
He never did , but I was thinking about doing a podcast in the future and we thought , well , we can't do that but actually what we came up with is more relevant to what we do anyway , yeah , and then yeah .
So we have worked every possible pun out of every version of it over the years . Do you remember the favourite one ? Actually , just quickly , we did a band night , don't you remember ? We called it Patents Act . Yeah , I was quite proud of that .
Oh , I like the black eyed peas . Yeah , that was our office band for black eyed peas .
That's good , that's good .
I think there's nothing left now . I'm pretty sure we have one with James Bond films but with IP puns on it , and the best one I saw wasn't me , it was somebody who said the Dutch for patent is octroi , like natal edge octroi bureau just octroi pussy it was just brilliant . Now , that's just too neat , all you need to do is know James Bond IP and .
Dutch bang , yeah , yeah All you need to do is know James Bond IP and Dutch Bang yeah .
We're close to time , willard , okay . One of the things that I do on the podcast is keep an eye on the drop , which is why I've normally got it running . Willard's now looking at who we've got next . Okay next .
I was told this was going to be yeah , yeah , yeah .
Oh , this is a pinnacle .
This is a pinnacle should we just drop that mic .
Do not drop my expensive mic . They're a cheap mic I can drop . So are you sat there thinking
¶ Podcast Collaboration and Closing Thoughts
thank god they didn't ask me that , or I really wanted to talk about this ? Is there a piece of the jigsaw missing ? Tough question , I know sorry no , I don't think so .
I mean I don't . Yeah , there's nothing that I was surprised or bored by in the questioning , excellent .
Excellent .
Well , you know what ?
And this will be obsequious flattery , but it's true , I mean listening to you guys before you know to get's ip and but they're , it's like fun and you guys are really good and my producer , tracy , has told me this before like just and I . I interestingly , as an actor , I have trouble a little going off script because wait a minute . Wait a minute .
Yeah , you know , like you don't have to cover it all , you , there's a flow here that I love , like you're just you're in it .
Oh , that's so nice .
However , the conversation's going , you run with it . You know that's , but that's not easy . In my having done three episodes myself . You know it's actually it's hard to do .
You make it seem easy , but it's actually . I would say that's what we've got better at , because if I listen back to the earlier ones , it was very much well Gwilym's time to ask a question , whereas now we don't do that do we ?
We just kind of no . Occasionally we'll be messaging off on the side . I'll just say , right , you're up , or whatever it might be , but yeah .
And it does make more of a .
Occasionally , you get those tumbleweed moments and we know how each other thinks .
Yeah , which is great . There's like a flow to it , like this flow was really great , you know , like it .
So I'd like to , I'd like to . I'm going to take that away and try to do that . You need a co-host , as in a co-hosted host , it does seem like it's really fun .
Obviously , no one knows what Inter's going to be next year .
Only our NTA . Thank you , no next year .
Oh , the INTA , thank you . No one knows what the INTA is going to be or what it's , how it's going to be pronounced hopefully .
I know nothing . I know nothing we're enjoying this .
I think we should link up and do more together we could do something really exciting next year once we know where it is . No , no , no , this was a treat , this is a total treat , and an honor like you guys are again sequestrated .
But truly like , you're really good like it's no , no , no , I mean . I'm learning a lot . I think we've got all this . Yeah , it's true , it's really .
Oh no , there was a power outage oh no , you're not allowed to speak on the podcast , you're the producer oh no , she exists , it's true , thank you so much for sharing the talk with us . It's been a pleasure , it's been a pleasure .
This was a blast , a total blast yeah , no , no , no , really , yeah , yeah . I don't say that . I won't say that to other people around , so trust me , I mean it yeah , thank you so much okay , we'll see you next time .
Two IPs in a . Two IPs in a . Two IPs in a .