¶ Early Career and Chinese Adventures
Massively .
I remember , I still remember to this day , you know , flying into Tinging Airport and there's a driver waiting for me and I came out of the airport to like a five or a six-way junction and there's a guy standing in the middle of this traffic whizzing left , right , back forth , every which direction you can imagine and a few you couldn't imagine as well .
And there's this guy . And there's this guy . Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod .
And you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property Brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys . To our peace in the sea , to our peace in the sea .
So , Gwilym , interesting name you've got there . I was quite impressed that we were having a conversation earlier on a different podcast and someone immediately said , oh , is that a Welsh name ? No , it's good , it's a good spot . It's a good spot , but no one looked at my badge and saw Davis and said is that a Welsh name ?
That's true , that's true , yeah , yeah , because you are .
Welsh , yeah , how do ?
you identify . No , I do identify more Welsh than I am . I did one of those DNA testy things Right and was quite surprised because I came back as 79% Welsh . Is there a gene for Welshness ? There is .
Yeah , is there a gene for Welshness ? There is , yeah , ah , yeah , yeah , yeah , well , it's more kind of that .
you're of that kind of side of the country , Right oh , I see , and I've got about 10% Scottishness in me and I have no idea where it comes from , because I don't know anyone in my family who's ever Scottish at any point in time .
So back to the name thing . It was quite impressive wasn't it in Wales she said she wasn't born in Wales for the microphone , so where are you from ?
where is your Welshness from Aberystwyth ?
born in Aberystwyth , my dad I think we talked about this before my dad's from Wrexham . That's been a long time ago that's from Wrexham which very topical now and everyone knows where they are which is one of the oddest things ever .
I was born , in fact , until Gavin and Stacey came along , because I'm a Barry Islander , yeah that's tricky , but no , it's all very Celtic .
We're in an Irish pub , of course . We are indeed yes , and , as we're about to find out , we have a guest who ? Who's also not English ? Who's not English ? I don't think so , but I'd be very surprised if you suddenly say you're English . I'm known as Michael to many , but I'm proud , I think , to be allowed to call him Mick from old time's sakes .
But I've known you , mick , for do we know ? 22 years , that's very specific I mean you're looking younger now than you did then .
I must have looked really rough before .
We thought it would be interesting to have you on years . I mean , you're looking younger now than you did then . I must have looked really rough before . Yeah , no , we thought it'd be interesting to have you on because you've done quite an interesting career and in particular , you've done kind of a double continent career .
We don't have that many people who know about Asia the way that you probably do , so we thought we'd get you along find out about your history and then hear about what's happening out east right now . Well , if you want to know about happening . I'm the wrong guy . Ah , you make it happen . That's what's going on .
Yeah , so as I recall , you didn't start in patents , is that right ?
Yeah , no , my degree is engineering electrical engineering and like a good electrical engineer , I went off to work as one for some time . Engineering . And like a good electrical engineer , I went off to work as one for some time , after some years in the . In doing that I thought , okay , it's time for a change .
I had a friend who was a patent attorney straight out of university talking to him one night and we'd had some discussions about patent attorney as a career , as a profession before and this time I really I was ready . I was ready for it this time . So , yeah , I wrote off to a few I was ready for it this time so yeah , I wrote off to a few places .
It was good enough to land a trainee patent attorney ship and that was yeah , that was 25 years ago . I've been doing this 25 years and then , as you say so , I spent training and qualified in London , including time under this fine gentleman here at Kilburn Strode Really Under him , as in actually that's how we operate at Kilburn . Strode Wow .
Yeah , are you in charge of people ? It's a physical hierarchy .
This man . I think it's fair to say this man hired me you mean he wasn't it ?
as I recall , yeah , yeah , yeah yeah .
And so , yeah , I must admit , happy at Kilburn and Strode . But a very long story very short . My wife is Chinese originally . She's been a British citizen more than 20 years . We decided for a move back to Asia and something came up in Singapore and we went for it . So , yeah , did you meet her in China ? I did . I was working before I was as an engineer .
I was in China working as an engineer and I met her there and , yeah , eventually she came back to the UK . By this time I was in London training as a patent attorney and we stayed there five , six , yeah , six or seven years before deciding to move out to Asia .
Okay , what was it like ? So that was China in the late 90s , early 2000s . It was a bit of a different story from now . I'm guessing it's very different .
We were in a city called Tianjin , beijing , near Beijing , okay , and out then it was dusty and dirty and polluted and not particularly fragrant . It was a fabulous city . I loved it , I absolutely loved it . I mean it was eyes wide open , massive experience , really massive experience . Now it's relatively genteel . We were there about a year and a half ago .
Right , I mean , it's unrecognizable . Okay , you know so . All that , you know it still has days where the pollution is pretty bad and other days where it's just beautifully clear . Yeah , you know so . But you know you don't have the dirt and the dust in the same way that you had . You know it's . You know it's become a very sophisticated city .
I want to think about city . I must be quite a bit culture shocked , though , going back then Massively .
I remember , I still remember to this day , you know , flying into Tinging Airport and there's a driver waiting for me and I came out of the airport to like a five or a six way junction and there's a guy standing in the middle of the traffic whizzing left , right , back forth , every which direction you can imagine and a few you couldn't imagine as well .
And there's a guy , there's a security , our police officer standing in the middle of the road looking utterly disinterested . I'm like what's he doing there ? And I realised there's some guy squatting in the middle of the junction , just hitting the road with a big hammer , and I'm thinking , oh my God , where am I ?
And it was just like here we go and you strap yourself in , and it was . I must admit , it was just fun , I loved it . It was fascinating , absolutely fascinating .
so , yeah , because I went out to Asia in the 70s to this similar kind of cultures , like actually quite interested in this bit of the story , funnily enough . So things like um , how many , how many kind of Western engineers were you in a mixed team ? How did it work ?
so we were . So I used to work for big construction companies . They would design and build pharmaceutical plants , fine chemical plants , um , and I was out there for the . There was a construction of a big pharmaceutical plant going on in a place called sujo , which is not you know sort of in the shanghai vicinity .
Yeah , yeah , it's probably about 250 kilometers , but for China that's in the hood . But the client in that big pharma company they decided to engage a design institute and they were in Tianjin .
So I was the lead electrical engineer on the job and got shipped out there with the lead instrumentation engineer , the lead mechanical engineer , the lead process engineer and so on . We went out there kind of to supervise things . So there was a few . There was a big Motorola plant there , so there was quite a few Americans .
There was a Spanish not Spanish , swedish pharmaceutical company out there , so you would occasionally come across a few of their guys . But yeah , I mean , westerners were few and far between and you'd be walking around the streets and , frankly , you'd attract a lot of attention . Yeah , you know , like little kids are running up to you and shout hello , hello .
You shout back to them in hello in chinese . And if you thought this was the funniest thing ever it was . It was really just an amazing experience . That's cool .
I guess I'll move on for a minute , but I've just said the era , Interestingly , that I guess was when China was really trying to reestablish itself as a kind of high end industrial setup rather than you know , just cheap plastic and stuff . Yeah , I think so .
So I mean , this was like
¶ Transition to Patent Attorney
the pharma plant was . So I went out there on what was supposed to be a two-year job , but the part of the project I was working on got cancelled after six months . So , in effect , I was there just long enough to get myself a wife , basically . But yeah , I mean this is really like fine pharmaceutical processing .
Yeah , yeah , yeah .
There was a primary plant and what they continued on with in the end was a secondary plant , a packaging plant . So they ended up they were shipping in like pharmaceutical product to be packaged , instead of manufacturing or making the pharmaceutical product there as well .
Then you head to London . Then and again , you're not English . We've established this very clearly . Why London ? Why not back up to Scotland ? You're not English , we've established this very clearly why London ?
Why not back up to Scotland ? Just really following the opportunities , the kind of work that I did at that time , I always seemed to be ending up in places that I didn't really want to be .
I finally managed to go myself a job in London which I was over the moon about , and then six months later I just you know what I want to do something different , you know . So it was then about .
That time was that , alan , that you'll make yes good friend Mr MacDougall now of .
Matheson Squire . I know the name , hello Alan . So Alan was in my class at university . We studied electrical engineering together , so , yeah , he was the one that said why don't you give this a try ? And so here I am now and your wife came .
I love this like . This is your life , isn't ?
it by the way . Yeah , we're gonna bring you a book come on out , alan .
Come on out , alan . My parents-in-law in the back , so your wife came over .
She followed you eventually , yeah , um , probably , oh , a year and a half , two years later , something like that she finally came , finally came over to stay . She came over to visit once or twice . She finally came over to stay .
She came over to visit once or twice .
She finally came over to stay and so we eventually set up . We had an apartment in Ealing . It was all very nice little . I must admit I quite enjoyed living in Ealing , so coming into , and it was very convenient coming into Holborn on the central line so very , very convenient and .
I remember , obviously you joined , we joined us and we never looked back . I mean , that was that's when it really began the pill in the throat for sure so leaving when I left .
When I left , business took off .
And then you , then you dropped the bombshell about heading out to Singapore and I think I remember you saying that your wife she missed Asia . Or are you missing Asia ?
she had . She had a good education from a good university in China and she was finding it difficult to find somewhere that would recognise that . So , yeah , that was part of the plan At that time . I mean , I must admit I was very , very happy working with these guys , possibly the happiest I'd ever been in a job .
But yeah , I think to move , I think it felt I was okay , it felt like it was time to try something back out in Asia again and Singapore . What a great place to be as well , I must admit it has been good . It is a nice place to live how long ? Have you been there ? This year it will be 20 years , 20 years well , I've popped out .
I visited you out there once or twice . I'm sure it's such a lovely place to go as well . I don't know because I don't know all this , even though I know you quite well . I don't know a lot of this . I'm interested , but obviously in Singapore you started working for a firm that was out there . It was Lloyd Wise .
I went for what was Lloyd Wise at the time ? Yeah , I'd never worked for them in the UK , but yeah , it was a good opportunity and went out there and yeah , they were very good to me as well , frankly . But yeah , then my wife was . We were expecting her first and , well , as it turned out , only child .
So it just felt like time to do something else and in the end I needed some flexibility . I decided I made the very foolish choice of setting up on my own . First I thought I can do just a little bit of freelancing work , but in the end I made the decision . You know what ?
Let's try as a real patent agency , let's act for our own domestic clients and do incoming work for international clients . And still , to this day , it's a small firm but frankly , I feel like I've found my niche there .
it's a nice little size . What do you like about it ? I suppose in bigger firms , I mean , there's a lot of infrastructure in place in the bigger firms , so in the smaller firm , in the smaller firm .
I mean having worked in massive corporations before as an engineer , massive corporations before as an engineer , I kind of had enough of these massive hierarchical structures , you know , layer upon layer upon layer of hierarchy .
And that was one of the things I liked about moving into the Patna Tony profession , because at the time you're going to a firm that's a certain size and you know there's you and above you is possibly the partner directly you know , that's it . Yeah , you know , there is no layer of hierarchy , so that's part of it .
You know , if there's team building , you know what . We don't have to plan team building . Let's go for lunch , you know , yeah , let's go for lunch and a huge amount of autonomy . Yes , well , that's right .
So I'm like chief of police , so I can do what I want , basically when I want as well , and I don't need to build a business case to come to Inter in San Diego . I don't need to convince a bunch of other partners that I should go . Or could I do a little diversion ?
I know you're going to come back . Yeah , that's fine , because you mentioned Inter . Why is it so ?
important . I had kind of forgotten how important it was . I don't do it every year . I didn't go last year , obviously , we were in Singapore and that was very good . We did everything , we had a small reception and that went fabulously well . But before that , the last time I had been to Inter was Seattle in 2018 .
Okay , I don't go every year , but actually , you know , I have a bunch of good meetings here . I mean mostly , almost exclusively , I'm meeting with people I already know , so it's not about new business ?
It's not .
No , you're picking up some useful new contacts . I'm just checking my email on the way over here and there's some new LinkedIn contact requests dropping in my email inbox . You know so . Request dropping in my email inbox perfect , you know so , and interesting looking contacts as well .
So but you know so it's a bit of both . So it's not hard sell , it's not promo , it's getting here networking with people and if you pick up a few contacts and stuff , exactly , yeah , yeah , exactly .
So I mean , I was at a reception earlier and bumped into someone and within two minutes they said did you does your firm file in my country ? You know , know , and .
Because we were only saying earlier , weren't we ? We had a little walk around earlier and saying how tough it looks for people that are really trying to use it as a platform for new business .
Yeah , the networking space is a bit brutal . I think , yeah , yeah yeah , yeah .
So yeah , If I didn't make it to Inter , it wouldn't be the end of the world . Yeah , you know , but I'm reminded how good it can be and so far . So we're what halfway through here . Yeah , Actually , it's been really good so far . It's been really good so far .
London next year you coming .
Well , I need to think about that , right , I
¶ Singapore and Starting a Firm
mean accommodation and getting around . You can crash at mine .
That's the deal . Okay , all these , I'll be there . I'm in portsmouth , otherwise , it's a given . It's a given . Otherwise , yeah , yeah , I go to everybody . All the podcasters you'll come to mind , don't worry , all right well , there's another connection , then .
The company I worked for when I was sent out to china was a construction company based construction contractor , based in portsmouth . Who's that ? It was at the time john brown engineer . Oh , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . So I was with them for well , they were later taken over by , uh , caverna , yeah yeah yeah , I worked for them for four years .
I lived in Farum for four years .
There's another connection so back to to Singapore , so you started your own firm . It's really interesting . But you it sounds like you like that autonomy and the kind of the yeah , but I mean the yeah .
There's some with no matter what you do . There's some give and take right . So , for example , you as the chair and a partner at Kilburn , and so you don't have to do everything , although I get the impression at times you think you have to do everything . Oh he does .
Yeah , he does , he absolutely does . I've been told off my opinion for that as well .
But yes , you don't have to do everything , everything and uh , so I mean now I mean everything the office is set up . I mean we use the same docketing system you use , so it's incredibly sophisticated and and when you have these kinds of systems , when you set it up and it takes very little maintenance after that . So so things just happen .
You know things just happen . But there is ultimately , you know , when you're setting that up , everything relies , you know , everything lands on you . You know , and making sure things happen in the way you want them to happen , you don't just wave your hand and say something like you know what I don't like , this process flow .
I have to sit down and think , okay , how do we want it and how do we make that happen ? So , oh , we need to do a bit of business development work . Some of my colleagues are less excited at the prospect of doing that , so that falls to me as well . So there's a bit of that .
But on the other hand , we don't have partners meetings where we spend three hours debating what colour of toaster to buy for the kitchen . So there's pros and cons .
You're making partnership sound so exciting . No , no .
We have a very clear-cut set of recommendations . Now it's not an open conversation . Now we've got three colors to choose from three toasters , to choose from three toasters to choose from . Yeah , but then again you've got the number of slices and how that will stay .
They can get complex , you're right , but so I know that you I get that you travel around that region fairly regularly as well . On On business , I mean , you seem to kind of .
A little bit , yeah , not as much as I could or maybe even should . So I went to . I did a trip to Seoul in September , again just catching up with people . I know there's no cold calling and saying can I come and see you ? You don't know me , but can I come and see you ?
The time I had there was filled with meeting people I already know I had been thinking about doing a trip to Japan . I haven't been there for maybe six years . Yeah , yeah , I thought about doing that sort of February , march time , but the way things just fell out it didn't happen . So maybe Yokohama in September for the IPPI meeting , I don't know .
So I used to go up , I used to do . When I started the firm I was doing a lot of . I was supporting a lot of litigation in Malaysia patent litigation- Really , so I was up and down there quite a lot , yeah , but not for all .
But then as the firm grew and the practice took off , just you're approached to do opinion work and I'm like sorry , I mean I've got three patent drafts on my desk , I can't do an opinion now . So we haven't really been closely , deeply involved in litigation for some time and the Singapore it feels like we're a hub generally in Southeast Asia .
It's a little tiger or whatever , isn't it ? I mean , is that from an IP perspective as well , is Singapore a fairly significant jurisdiction ?
From an IP perspective as well , is Singapore a fairly significant jurisdiction . It depends on who you talk to , I think . I think many people talk about Singapore
¶ IP Landscape in Southeast Asia
as being key . Where we find it is quite useful for some clients is if you get granted patents in Singapore , for example , you can . Then there's a PPH agreement for the rest of the ASEAN states , places like Thailand , malaysia , vietnam , they're in Indonesia .
They're not particularly fast , you know , and okay , there's a bit of a backlog at the Singapore IP office just now as well , which makes that a little bit more difficult .
But from a strategic perspective that can be very useful , sort of YN , yeah , or it kind of greases the wheels a little bit in other countries right , and not with any sort of negative connotations . It just makes things a little bit easier .
I think lots of the patent examiners in some of the other Southeast Asian states are quite happy to look and see what happens in other jurisdictions and if you say , okay , we have a granted patent in Singapore . Okay , that's good enough for us , right ? So that's one of them . What you can do is what you can do with trademarks Trademarks .
It's an important jurisdiction for trademarks because it's such a big and connected shipping port .
So you have custom seizures .
Custom seizures . You can't do that for patents , of course , but you can have it for trademarks . I I've seen other people talking about Singapore being strategic , about , you know , because it's the big player in the region . Yeah , it gives a sort of message that we're serious about the region and so we want to file and have IP protection in Singapore .
I did proto-patent litigation in Singapore , probably in the late 90s , early 2000s by aeroplane seats , but I remember at the time it's a pretty cool case . I remember at the time that the law was quite old British , it was a 49 Act . Is that still the situation ?
No , they modernised the Act in 95 . I can't remember if it came into force in 95 or 96 . Basically , they followed very closely the UK Act 77 . And some sections of the Singapore Act still repeat word for word sections from the UK 77 Act , but they still had their own tweaks .
They had a type of modified examination where you basically get a granted patent in the UK a bunch of jurisdictions like the UK , epo , us and a few other places as well . You file a form at IPOS and say , okay , we conform the claims to those as granted in this other jurisdiction , let's have a patent for that . They call it the self-assessment system .
Yeah , yeah , and even if you used IPOS for substantive examination , if you had a negative examination report , you could still pay the grant fee on it and get a granted patent . I doubt you would . I imagine you would have some difficulty enforcing it , but that's what you could do .
Okay , so they still had its little quirks and that was really down to the fact that they didn't have any patent examiners . Do you still engage with SEPA ? Not so much lately . No , not so much . I remember writing a few articles some time back . I think it was so long ago I can't even remember what it was about .
I said so long ago I can't even remember what it was about . I did a review of . I remember I did the previous . The previous the review of a previous edition of Terrell Terrell and the law of patents . So I did . I remember doing the book review for that , but yeah , that's uh not how much I thought about trying to like the . The main , the main .
I think the main liaison SIPA does in Singapore is through the Association of Singapore Patent Attorneys . Yeah , yeah yeah , I was on the executive committee of that for a while , but it's going back some time , okay . So the other one I'm maybe a little bit more active in the Asian Patent Attorney Association .
APA .
APA Right , yeah , I sat on the patents committee of that . The Patent Attorney Association has a Patents Committee , which always amused me , so I sat on that and represented Singapore at the Patents Committee meeting for about six years , I think it was .
But I think most of the liaison SIPA does with Singaporean bodies is with ASPA , which I'm not so much involved with and I don't know the kind of ecosystem in Singapore at all .
Is it a regulated situation ? Are there restrictions in terms of ?
representation ? Yes , there are . You have to be a registered patent attorney in .
Singapore .
You have to go through the examination system . They have a . There's one of the local universities does a . They used to do a course which was very similar to the Queen Mary course , but it was condensed into three or four months . They now changed that a
¶ Singapore's Patent System
bit . So one of the universities does that and you have to take the final exams and it's patent drafting , amendment INV . And there's a legal paper as well which is almost like a hybrid between the UK practice paper and the EQE paper D . So I went out there just after getting British qualified . I only had to do the legal paper .
Yeah , so there was recognition . Yeah , I took it not long after moving there , um , which is probably around the time that I was yeah , I was . In fact , I was waiting on my results of the eqe as well , so I've done the eqe legal paper d as well , and so , yeah , it was it felt okay .
Have you been able to maintain the european side of stuff , or is that gone because of your uh jurisdiction and well , there's the , there's the jurisdictional issue there .
Yeah , so I maintain my , my fellowship of cpa .
Yeah so , and we've talked about business practice stuff previously , a few years back , yeah , yeah I remember yeah , so so I maintain my fellowship of cpa .
I mean , I suppose I thought about the possibility of , you know , representing clients directly at the UK IPO or the EPO , but I don't know what it's like . Do you still have to have deposit accounts at the EPO now , or can you pay official fees with credit cards ? I can still deposit accounts .
I just looked at that and I thought you know what I don't want to do that ? Yeah , I don't want to do that .
Are you fairly unique in Singapore or are there other sort of I ?
like to think .
I'm unique , of course , we all like to think we're unique , there are , there are other .
Brits out there . There are several firms like Marks and Clark has an office there in terms of small practices ? Yes , there are a few , they're everywhere . So yeah . Sorry , I thought you meant like the CPA , EPA practicing in Singapore .
There's a handful , okay , yeah .
Maybe more than a handful . So .
Yeah , there's a little community there .
There are some smaller firms there , yes , yeah , and they all seem to be doing quite well . It's a respected qualification , I imagine . I think so . Yeah , Some of the pass rates are the examination pass rates are still very low . Well , I think one of the issues they have as well they let people take the exams too early .
You know to be registered in Singapore , you have to have passed all those exams and you have to have had I think the requirement is still the same you have to have had a one-year internship under a registered patent attorney , post-qualification or during Pre-qualification , pre-qualification . So that's far too short .
I mean , and I tried talking to IPOS about this and saying you know what , try to explain to them the situation where they're , even before the pre-EQE you need three years minimum at the EQE before taking the EQE , not three years to get registered , but three years to take the EQE .
And I think they I don't know , I think they don't want to discourage people from trying . But what you get then is I think you get lots of candidates taking exams far too early .
That's a perennial discussion .
Yeah , possibly everywhere , everywhere , possibly everywhere , yeah , anywhere where you can electively take qualifications when you feel you're ready for them . Yeah , yeah , so I'm going to round off with a life question .
How are you , I've got a closer . Oh , you've got a closer . I've got a closer .
I've got . No , you do no , you go first Always prefer to you ?
Life question . Life question yeah , are you going to be there forever ? Singapore .
Probably not . Probably not . I doubt I'll retire there . I doubt I will . I've got some ideas , but nothing confirmed . It's tricky , isn't it ? It's a very , very expensive place to live . Yeah , I guess A very expensive place to live .
It's kicked off completely in the last few years as well , hasn't it ?
it's got one of the most expensive in the world now , or something yeah , I mean when we moved there , three things were expensive property , cars and alcohol and now everything's expensive . Actually it wasn't even before . Covid in the late can we call them the noughties in the late nought ?
we call them the naughties . Are we still , yeah , in the late ?
naughties . Suddenly you see prices , just everything . Everything is imported , you know
¶ Future Plans and Reflections
, and everything . So but yeah , it's been a very , very good place to be Sort of sort of nicked the closure .
I didn't know that .
Yeah , I think it's well , it's related . So the way this works is I normally ask him a question , then I'll ask it of you and then he'll ask me the same question . I've not actually thought about my answer to this one in advance .
Oh good , I like these because I feel that's pressure , so I was quite taken by the move to Singapore and sort of how that's worked out . So , Gwilym , if you weren't where , you were now and I know you love where you live . Yeah , when would be your next destination ? Where would you choose to live ? Oh , I'd be back in Hong .
Kong ? Yeah for sure . Absolutely Not dissimilar to me . I don't know if you got a taste for Asia the first . Every time I go there I think I want to live here , but again , for not the similar reasons but some extra reasons that it's just just not feasible , which is a real shame actually .
Hong Kong's an amazing place . I mean , I remember the first time I went there , I was just . There's a buzz in the air there that I'd never experienced anywhere else , and and that's largely why we first thought about trying our arm there before the opportunity came up .
In Singapore and you An Indonesian beach or a Thai beach , I thought you were a surfer , that would make sense .
Very bad surfer . Oh , so I was assuming you'd retire back to the UK . I couldn't take that climate again . I was going to say no , so I was assuming you'd retire back to the UK .
I couldn't take that climate again . I was going to say no , no , no . I was going to say Sorry to all those British people that are listening , but I couldn't take that climate again , oh well no , your retirement plans suit my retirement plans .
I'm going to come and see you wherever you are . That sounds really good .
Lee , yeah , so you know I like my sea fishing yeah so I would probably go somewhere like this sounds really sad , doesn't it ? Maybe the Witterings or Salsey or somewhere like that ? Oh that's good , I know , not a million miles away , but you know just somewhere where .
I could sort of walk out of the house , walk down the beach and just set the rods up and sit there all day brilliant and listen to two IPs in a pod on your headphones there'll be other people doing it by then , of course you'll never be giving this up .
You'll never be giving it up .
Come on , we know this thank you so much , michael , for spending time at Inter with us on that podcast . Thank you for the invitation thank you , as ever , for being an amazing host , amazing host .
We'll see you next time .