Welcome back to two Dotting Dads. I'm Mattie Jay and I'm As. This is a podcast that is all about parenting.
It's the good, the bad, and the relatable.
And as we always say, if you've come here hoping to find any kind of advice, unfortunately.
None not from maybe today.
Well, I mean we have to say it, but deep down we.
Know that we can't use another lawsuit.
Hey, this is a bonus episode. It is yes, which is very exciting. We do want to say a big shout out to Lulu Lemon, yep, friend of the show.
And this month is also November, Matthew.
One of my favorite months of the year, Ash absolutely where it's shedding a light on mental health, both mental and physical, and we are all for that. And if you did want to gear up for November, there has never been a bit of collaboration between lou Lemon and the charity. You can buy November specific appara, both men's and women's, and five dollars from every sale will be donated. You can look at our socials. Ash and I both wearing the November from Them Lululemon T shirts.
Of course they're very comfortable.
Although I have to say people may be confused not being able to identify who was Ash who was Matt because we both have mustaches. Yes, I may say this might come across as arrogant. They're on parte. Ash is wearing the hat. I am wearing no hat.
Yes, I am wearing the hat.
So normally this podcast is all about us just being idiots and parents. That's it, and we only ever wanted to just be a bit of comedic relief. But this episode is going to be a little bit different. Off the back of November where we are hearing men's Health, we thought it was a great opportunity where we can talk about a mental health health journeys. Yes, and I think one of the biggest surprises with you Ash, and
we've only known each other. It's not being that long year November, not even twelve months, I would say twelve months, but round up hanging out with you, you seem like someone who.
Is extrata together. Yeah.
Yeah, But when I first found out that mental health was something that you struggled with, I was quite surprised.
Hmmm, and so thank you.
I'm keen to know when did you first realize that your own mental health was something that you needed help with.
Uh for me, Like before having kids, I always joke about and that's the thing as well. I hide a lot behind humor and one line stupid jokes that I whip out because.
You've always I'm assuming you've always been the funny guy.
Yeah, I think like my dad's very similar to me as well. Like real, I don't know, I just had to be the funny guy, class clown sort of thing. Yeah, I definitely have had to always been like that, and I always joke about that. I don't remember what I was like before having kids, because I legitimately don't really remember, just because I mean, they just take up so much of your life. So like before I kind of just
thought I was a normal guy. Like I never really thought anything of the head noise that I would have had or anything like that.
Were there any moments, this is before kids, where you thought, hang on a second, you know, this doesn't feel quite right. Yeah.
When I was a teenager, there was a couple of instances where I did think that, Like I know, I just you know, might have felt a little bit sad and didn't know why. And then I just sort of put it down to nothing really, And I mean as teenager, you sort of get on with it.
You're still kind of regulating your emotions. Yeah.
Yeah, and it wasn't I mean, the mental health conversation wasn't so prominent. Now it's so it's really prominent, which is great, so much better because yeah, like I think maybe then maybe I would have I don't know, maybe I would have thought something's not right if I don't know, and it was such a thing, But I didn't really know it was such a thing till after.
Having Yeah, I don't think going through high.
School the last thing I'm thinking about totally. I don't think it about chicks.
I don't think I could say there was anyone that I knew who had depression. It wasn't really a word that.
Was that you really knew that you would have known. I mean that's part of the problem, right, it's the stigma.
Yeah.
So yeah, before kids, I just thought I was a normal guy and just going along my normal life. I think, like as maybe closer to when I was getting married, I had a few moments where I was like maybe a little bit maybe a little bit, yeah, a little bit sad boy, But I just again, I just thought that was who I.
Was when you found yourself in those moments where you were sad or upset. Was it off the back of anything that had happened. Was there a trigger for that or was it just waking up one day and feeling not that I can recall.
Yeah, I felt like sometimes if I was missing out on something, then maybe I was a little bit more down in the dumps. But I just thought it was normal thought that I never thought really anything of it.
So then when you had Oscar and the situation you found yourself in that moment with your mental health, was that more severe than what you'd experienced previously.
Yeah, so like really started when having Oscar is such like a big change in your life. Right for everyone, it's obviously good. You know, you've made the decision to have a child, and well, I'm very excited as you do. But like, it's such a big impact on your life. And I always say to people that are expecting their first kid, like, you can never be prepared. No matter how prepared you think you are, you're not. You just
don't know what you're going to get totally. There's so many different variables, but.
Every kid is is wildly different. I look at Marley, I look at Lola and they had just worlds apart.
Oh yeah, and like the first you know, the first six twelve months was completely different too. So I think like when we had Oscar, even from the delivery suite where things didn't really go to plan. It was sort of he was such a grumpy, grouchy baby.
If anyone who doesn't know, we've spoken about before, but it was a sea section.
It was ended up being an emergency sea section after like twenty four hours of labor. I think, like now I look back where actually some of the mental stuff sort to shine through was even in the even in the recovery suites when we're you know, a couple of days in the hospital and me trying to change oscars,
n happy and not being happy with my performance. Like I was like, holy shit, Like that's where like the underlending standards, Like I expected myself to be able to calm that baby and be able to you know, change that baby like immediately, even though I was like, hand, that's like my first fucking day on the job, but
I didn't think anything of it. Then I just would get frustrated, so frustrated like immediately, and then yeah, we sort of you know, we packed up, went home, did that forty k and hour home because you're like just thing in the back of the car as every dad would do, where you just like so fragile, am I strapped in the car correctly, all that sort of stuff. And then we got home, and yeah, he was quite
a cranky baby. He was really uncomfortable. We sort of a little bit later found out that he had silent reflux and he had dairy intolerance.
Which is so tough.
Yeah, so and for anyone who don't really know, he would be like asleep for forty minutes the first sleep window, and then obviously he would be burning in his esophacus, and like we didn't know any of that, and like you know, like.
Like I said, isn't he loving me? Why doesn't he love me?
But like he wouldn't sleep, And then it was caused me and April blaming each other for why he can't sleep and all that sort of shit, and like, you know, as two people in the household, three people in the household now just tied all the time, it was really taking a toll on April, who's got a feed We're not knowing what's wrong. And then I go back to work, and I think, did you have off? Initially I had two weeks off.
Oh that was it?
That was it? Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And then I was.
Did you have matt leeb for yourself?
Is that no I had? I can't quite recall.
Yeah, that's quick.
It was only two weeks. And then I went back to work for two weeks. And during those two weeks it was really really tough coming home to see my shell of a wife that I had, because this kid had absolutely taken it all day and it was like really taking its toll. On April, and after two weeks, I've said to my work, I'm going to have to take more time off to try and help support. And again we still didn't know that Oscar had silent reflux and a dairy intolerance.
You have little brief moments, because Lola was similar where she was just didn't sleep, didn't eat, and you have little moments where you're like, oh, this is nice, she just gave me a smile, and this is yeah, I guess that little like spark that I was looking for when I was thinking about becoming a new parent. But then bulk of it is just screams, screams.
Yeah, I recall taking a photo of me and Oscar when he was so young, and I think a captions are in between screams, and people were like, holy shit, that hit me hard because they're like, that's so true. Those moments in between you got to try and find but we weren't finding any, and like it was so early days that like, yeah, I've said and thankfully the job I had at the time, they were like, yeah, take as much time as you need, which is really great. They sort of understood that was.
It a case. And I guess there is this expectation of like, all throughout pregnancy, everyone's just like, this is going to be the most amazing moment of your life and build it up year totally. Like the bar is of expectation is so incredibly high, and then when it doesn't match that, all of a sudden, you're like, well, I'm failing as a family.
That's kind of what I felt like, Yeah, And it also felt like people were always like asking me, oh, how's the sleep. Just shut the fuck up and stop asking me that fucking question because it's obviously not good. Look eggs on my eyes. I'm off work again. Oscar was just absolutely draining us to the point where like I resented him, which sucks for him. And that's as hard as it is for people to hear that I fucking hated him. Look, we build a bridge, thankfully, but.
Like I guess it's like for anyone listening, he maybe doesn't have kids. It is a really interesting situation to be in where like, at its core, obviously love your child. Yeah you know, it's almost like I love that will
never be broken. But at the same time, it's this juxtaposition where this child that you love like unconditionally is also the cause of so many problems, so many problems, and it's really really strange, and nothing eats you up more than those moments of frustration that are directed towards your baby.
Oh yeah, because then you feel guilty about it afterwards because it's like, I don't know anyway. So, like it was just getting really, really really bad, to the point where it was really affecting April's mental health. She was, you know, leaving the house and not coming back, and we were having to seek help because she was depressed, she hated everything. She was obviously suffering from depression. So my first initial thought there is to make sure she
has help and we did that. We did what we needed to do, went saw the GP, and the GP said it was really really bad and recommending us this place called Sin John of God, which was out at Burwood, which April's in denial about that doesn't want to do it. They have a really great mother and child program out there. And it was like, do we need to do that? Is it that bad? And we tried to help ourselves
before we had to get to that point. I remember there was this one day Abe went for a physio appointment, like a postpart of physio appointment, and she just didn't come back, and I was like, what the Fuck's going on here? She didn't come back, and then eventually she did and she said I just drove around the block, not wanting to come in because I just hated the situation. Wow, which was real tough, And at that point, I've made the call that we've got to go.
Yeah.
When we rang and said you know we're coming in, they said, okay, cool, no worries. We went in and we checked in like two days later to this mental hospital. They were really great and it was a beautiful facility and stuff, but essentially I had to drop my wife and kid off there left him for eight weeks, which I was allowed to visit. I was allowed to stay.
They were really good. It was really tough. Like I said, like, they had great facilities, and I've got this really good mother and child program which the child goes in with you when you first get there, they obviously know that you're fucking exhausted. Essentially, the baby sleeps in the nursery. I can't remember how old he was at this point, like five or six weeks. He might have been a
little bit older. But they do all this group stuff and they see psychologists and try and they give them the tools to really work with it, which is really really great. And got to see that.
So at this point, how was your mental health? Because April had been diagnosed and she was seeking help.
At this point, I had to completely put myself to the side. I was like, it is not about me, it's about them. It was great for me to get some rest as well, to sort of start to see things in a bit more light. But yeah, I was going back and forth for that whole time. Yeah, I was sort of got closer to the end of that time, and I remember I had a conversation with my sister, and she was like, oh, it's all you know, great that she's getting better. She was just like, what about you?
And I was like, I'd never really and like we spoke about the other day, I was like, you know, it's kind of like when you're in an aeroplane and the oxygen mask dropped down, you got to put yourself on before you start to help others. And she was like, do you not ever think about that?
Yeah?
And I was kind of like shit, and it sort of planted a seed for me. I remember there was like a couple of weeks to go, and they were like, look, we're going to allow April to have like a home visit. Can't come home for the night. I was going to come home too, just for the night and see how
it goes. It went pretty well, Like it was a little bit rocky because obviously know when it's like even now, when your kids sleep in a different environment, it's it's never great, so you know, but it was really good to have them home and eventually they discharged her and came home and we were in a much better play.
Best thing we ever did, like now I look back, the best thing we ever did was take up on that program and thankfully we were covered under insurances and stuff like that, which I know that some people don't have that don't have that same thing, and look, there should be more of it and more accessible for families. But yeah, like they came home and you know, we sort of were better equipped and had more knowledge, and
like it wasn't perfect. We were still going through the Now April, we have to look at Okay, she can't eat dairy, Oh yeah.
Of course because then the milk that she's producing.
Yeah. Yeah, so then we had to manage the silent reflux and stuff. So there were still its challenges, but it was you know, chalk and cheese so much better because we're you know, well and more equipped, but.
We're aware of yeah issues, and April.
Was on the man really well, like she was, you know, starting to be more positive and starting to find She definitely said that she started to love him much more and have those moments and I wasn't having them yet, which you know, I accepted because they you know, they were living together in a facility.
Yeah, it's so hard, even though deep down you love your child to express that love when you're completely overrun with that frustration, the relationship with Marley, it was very instant. She was a dream child. Yeah, she slept anywhere, she ate, she fed beautifully. Yeah, fucking life was easy. And then with Lola, that affection was kind of like masked.
Yeah, it was masked by the frustration of why aren't you like that one?
Yeah?
Yeah, totally, Like I was happy that everyone was home and happy that you know, we're on the end, and I think, like it wasn't obvious to me, but it was obvious to April that I was getting worse. She just said to me that you're different, said something about you is different. She said, you're frustrated, You're angry. I can see it. I can see it in your eyes that you're just not something's not rare and for me, and like, deep down for me, I was essentially without
me knowing, planning my escape from the situation. Still even what do you mean by that? I just didn't want to be there anymore. I just there was conversations that I had had with April saying that I don't love this kid, and it was like, that's to say it now. It is heartbreaking, but it was like that was the situation that I didn't want to be there anymore. Didn't mean self harm. It just means I just wanted to
move on from this. And when they were in a position, my honest thoughts at the time were, once they're in a position where they're comfortable, I'm going to leave, which now it fucking breaks my heart to say that, but that was the god honest truth. And I remember April saying to me, you know we're getting better, you're getting worse. And she kept saying that to me, she said, you need to sort this out.
At that point, did you agree with her? Were you thinking maybe I could have something wrong with my mental health?
Yeah, when she was blunt to me and said that, you know, we need to have a look at this. Because you helped us, we need to help you. And like, thankfully we had built like a bit of a rapport with our GP over all of everything that happened with April. And as soon as I booked that appointment and sat in her office, she knew straight away and I was just a fucking mess, and she was just like, holy shito.
She was just like, you guys have forgotten. You guys get forgotten so much because it is all about mum and the baby, as it should be because she's providing life, she's nurturing, she's you know, feeding. She's like I always say that that first big moment, you know distances there are newborn is that you could be any old blob, but you won't be mum, you know what I mean.
But it's also a teamwork between mom and dad, and obviously there is a big difference between she's.
The team captain totally. But yeah, I remember when I, like, I said, I saw the GP and she was just like, you know, we did all the testing to like how I'm actually feeling, and she was like, we need to sort this out.
So what's the steps from that moment?
For the steps from that moment is you come up with a mental health plan with your GP, which is really important, just to sit down and talk about, you know, what the plan is, what resources are available, and how you want to tackle it, and what you're comfortable with as well, which you know, she was saying to me, I get a lot more women than men, and she was very honest about that, and she was like, but she she said, I would love to see more men because so many couple sit in here and I can
see it that maybe I don't know. Something is not right and she was like, you're at a point where you've made the decision to be here, which is the best decision you've made? And it was. And we went from there in terms of referrals to who would benefit me the most in the area? Is there some resources online? How far did I was? I willing to go to
make myself feel better? Made it really easy, So you know, I made the decision at that point to see someone professionally, and April was like, whatever it costs, whatever it takes.
Is that a therapist?
Yeah, so whatever it costs, whatever it takes so that we can get you back on track. And it was fucking scary, dude. It was nerve wracking. And then also there was that feeling is like what the heck is wrong with me? So I had that initial GP appointment and then it was leading into COVID. It was becoming really hard to see someone.
Do you remember what it was like going to your very first therapy session?
Yeah? Look, I didn't know what to expect to start off with. I was like, I don't know what's going to happen, but it was actually real low key and was like got an opportunity to sort of just like sit with someone who didn't know me but knew the questions to ask and had the tools they could provide me the tools to try and help. But I remember, in the leading up to that first appointment, I was still thankful I had that initial consultation with my GP, but then I was like in waiting to see someone.
And I remember we went for this family walk to the shopping center at the end of the street was and this was like a real like one of those moments, It's like I need to really fucking help myself here. I remember we went into Kohle's to do some light shopping. Oscar's kicked off in the pram. But then as Oscar's kicked off in the pram, this young group of kids came in. They were like a Japanese soccer team on tour and they were just kids. They were like eight
nine tent but they were crazy. No one was in control of these kids, and I was like, I need to get a fuck away from these kids because my anxiety was through the fucking roof. And I was like, oh,
we'll just go down the other end, no worries. We need to get a couple of things went down the other end, and I remember I came around the corner to go to the deli member and they came around the corner as well, and I was like trying to get away, and as I went to get away, these two girls for charity stopped me to ask me for money, and it just like all overwhelming, had a full panic attack. Anyway, April ended up finding me hunched over you know, the
nut mix things, and I was literally heavily breathed. I'd like blacked out, like a full panic attack that had never happened to me before. And April was like, come on, let's get the fuck out of here. And at that moment, I was like, oh my god, like what is happening to me? Like I was falling to pieces.
These two girls are like, so you won't donate.
April was just like whoa, whoa, whoa, Like this is And having that conversation with my therapist about that moment, she was just like, you've just hit this peak anxiety and she's like, to have an anxiety attack in public, A lot of people have them, but she was like that's like no, no, she said, a lot of people have them, but like to call it, recount the whole thing, and then you were like blacked out over you know, and then sort of came to down a random aisle
like it's wild. But yeah, it was definitely a big shining moment for me that I was like, fuck, something's not right. Yeah, and we're you know, that was how many years ago? Now what you were in? That was like four years ago.
And at this point you've spoken about the fact that you've got this really great mother's group. The dads in that group, you guys still hang out now, you guys were BALI recently together? Were you still spending time together? Or had you guys found that mother's group?
We had found it, but it was it was very early days because we had found it, and then April wasn't there for eight weeks. And look, they know, they know now what was going on, and only a select few people knew now what was going on? I had three months off work. I remember what.
About then your close group of mates.
Yeah, there was a couple that knew what was happening?
Could they in the lead up to that moment? Obviously, April she knows that something's not quite right. Whenever your mates saying ah, something's a bit off.
No, I hit it a lot. I think it came as a shock. I remember a friend of mine drove past me out the front of the therapy place and I was coming out it's right, and he rang me and he was like, is everything okay? And I was like, oh, like yeah, just started seeing someone and I was seeing someone like once a fortnight, and he was like shit like he definitely opened his heart and his arms to Me'd be like, if you need anything, let us know.
And you know, I slowly told more and more people that things weren't okay, but I were telling people that things were okay, so that they kind of knew that it was okay if things were okay with them too. I remember I one of my friends at the time is still a really good friend, when I told him, and then he got really inquisitive about the whole thing, and he was like he was going through a bit of a breakup at the time. He was just like not feeling himself. And I was like, go and do it, mate.
It's honestly, like so relieving. And I remember I saw him a few weeks later he said I did it, and I was like, oh, how'd you go and he was like, well, I booked it and then he said I was going after work and he was like, I just felt rushed and I felt unprepared. And I was like, oh, yeah, he goes. I got there and then hed it just all came out of me, and he was like, he goes, I felt fucking great.
Wow.
He I couldn't believe how much emotion I had, like pent up, yeah, and it just stockpiling and like he only ever saw the therapist once, and he was like, it did wonders because he was like, there's so many things that I didn't think I could talk to anyone about, but once I've spoken to them about it, felt like I can talk to other people about it. And yeah, like and a very strong believer that everyone should at least go once in their life.
Do you think if any of your mates had reached out, this is before you'd gone to the therapist for the first time, and if they had said, Ash, something's not quite right. Can we talk about it? Do you think looking back, you would have or do you think you still would have mastered it.
I think I would have opened up somewhat, but it took me to go to therapy to really understand some of my behaviors and some of my thought processes. And that's the biggest thing. You really find out a lot about yourself. I remember I sitting with my therapists and talking. You know, I've got a different therapist now, just because
I sort of evolved a little bit. But the initial therapist that we were talking about some behaviors, and it was crazy that some of the behaviors that are common in that, you know, the anxiety and depression and unrelenting standards, some of the behaviors that I was doing that I didn't even recognize, like what, for example, off the top of my head, like you know, really incorporating like the unrelenting standards thing into you know, who and why. I
was getting so frustrated, who at and why? And it wasn't the situation. It was me that I was getting so frustrated with. So like I told this story about how I flu oscar up to see my parents at their place for the very first time. I was so organized to a tea that when something went wrong, I was so fucking angry, But I didn't really realize who
I was angry at. I was angry at me, so like for example, I'd organized everything and then we got to the airport to get to the rental car and realize the rental car place wasn't actually in the airport. We had to get a shuttle. Set me off. I was like a wrecking ball, mate, And it was like just those little behaviors that it's like, hang on a minute,
like that's not that big of a deal. But it was like, you know, recognizing that I wasn't getting angry, I was you know, who I was angry at, or why I was getting angry, or why I was feeling the way I was feeling, or just like the behaviors of doing things to escape the reality that you're in instead of doing things for the joy of it, or doing things for other you know, decent and positive reasons. But yeah, like straight away learnt so much about myself.
I remember I had that's right. I had like a meltdown at a bus stop once because I had misplaced my wallet, which is not a big fucking deal real in the scheme of things, but I was so angry with myself. I smashed my phone up, fucking smashed a bust shelter up, got on a bus and was like just told the driver, and I'm like, I don't have I don't have any money, I don't have anything. I'm fucking getting on this bas like just like. And then I remember getting home and being like wow, like just
like a fit of my own rate. But I was just angry with me and it was so you know, and like. And then I was like sort of feeling that I didn't want to be around anymore. And I was seeing a therapist. It was getting better, things were getting better, which was great, but then I always had those moments where I was like, I don't know, I don't want to be around anymore. And it evolved I stopped seeing I stopped seeing a therapist after a while.
And at this point, had you you'd already been diagnosed with depression.
And anxiety and some unrelenting standards.
Yeah, and so were you medicated?
Yeah, so on top of therapy, I was medicated, which I am still still medicated. My dosage isn't quite as high as it used to be, but medicated daily, which a lot of people are, to sort of keep my you know, social anxiety and my depression sort of it sort of levels you out, I think, and I really felt the difference.
I'm going to be really naive here. But is it a case of once you take that first pill, from that moment on you notice a difference.
Noah, nah, So you've got to like you definitely ease into it. I remember I eased into it at a certain dosage and it was like is it doing anything? Not really, And then they sort of up it. But then there's you know, they don't just be like, yeah, let's just up it. You know, you've got to have the process. Yeah, there's a process. And then coming off it as well, there's like, you know, I've tried to come off it before. It just didn't work. It's just
really bad, like anxiety. And after I felt like I was getting better and things were getting so much better at home, like Oscar was sort of turned a corner and was loving and COVID did us a real big soul because it gave me the opportunity to be at home a lot with him, and I rebuilt that bond, which was great, and like I missed that lockdown because I got to rebuild that bond with Oscar. Now he's talking back to me.
It's just.
But no, that's obviously it's got its own challenges when he's as he is now, but at that point back then, when he you know, he was just like sliding along the ground and really really cute and like doing those things for the first time.
Like and they start to I always found that the relationship with Lola, it improved drastically when she could just give me a little bit back.
Yeah, it does, Yeah, totally.
Obviously, I'm not talking about like they kind of at this point kind of in talk, but when they smile, when they sit, when you walk in the room and they recognize your face and give you a smile, or they wake up in the morning you go into the room and you just get that little reaction. You know. I feel like I'm quite needy when I say that as a parent, but those little things.
Keep you going.
Oh sure, for sure.
Yeah, and it keep going, specially even through like you'll be having a real shit time with some sleep regression or something and then they'll do something really cute and you're like, hey, gay kind.
Of makes that thread.
But yeah, like during COVID like really helped me build that bond back with Oscar. But I was still was the adamant that I didn't want any more kids. I was like nah.
We know that running is such a powerful vehicle to creating positive impact and at the end of this month is more than a run powered by a little Lemon. For the third year in a row.
It's a community run that happens on the twenty fifth of November. It's in support of November this year.
And since they started it was about two years ago, they have raised over one point four to eight million dollars, which is a huge effort, and they've had over four thousand runners across Australia and New Zealand. ASH. No surprise here, but we will be taking in the event. There is an option in Sydney, there's one in Centennial Park or one in Manly. We will do the Manly one. We'll do the Manly one closer to you.
A bit of local knowledge down there. So the options Matt are ten, thirty and sixty kilometers. Just stick to what we know.
Let's go very tempting, isn't it It is?
However, we'll do the ten down in Manly as mentioned. But if you want to get involved you can do so online, which we will leave in the notes of this episode the link sign up for the run this year and join me and Matt struggle through even just ten you be sick.
We were running it decked that Lili Lemon and also with mustaches on full display. Absolutely once again people being confused between who was Matt who was Ash? You will run with a hat on shore?
Well, yes, and we look forward to seeing you guys down there or for a really, really, really good course.
Can I ask this with your medication when your therapist said we're going to medicate you.
X YGP, I really offered it up.
And what was your jerk reaction to that?
My knee jerk reaction is I don't want to be some medicated freak. And that's just honesty in my head, which is so wrong and so incorrect.
I don't know where that comes from, because I would be the same.
I think it's just stigma. Mate. You're just like you don't want to be seen as a fruit loop, Like let's be completely honest, Like you want to be seen like you've got it together. Yeah, And I was so embarrassed that I didn't want people to know that I was medicated. But then it sort of got to a point in you know, situation where I was like, fuck it, what does it matter? No, one, I'll get a lot of the same like response. It's like oh really and
that's about it. Yeah, that was it. But like I do recall being off of it and being like, nah, I can do this on my eye. It's such a fucking man thing to think, no, you can't make you can't make it. Give yourself an upper cart, chuck something in your mouth and get on with it. But like it was kind of like I don't need that. Shit sounds like grandfather.
The GPS must hear that all the time.
They must be like, yeah, like breaking down that barrier must be real. It must be a real, like breath of fresh air when someone like me comes in and it's just completely honest and like both both the therapists that I've had have always said to me, like, you're very very very open and honest about your situation, you know, and that's helped me a lot.
So was it the case of from this moment on, you're medicated, you're sing a therapist, everything is great, ash is fixed.
You trick yourself a lot. I find that I'm really good at noticing when I've tricked myself, which seems to be a lot trick myself that I'm okay when I'm not, and you know what I mean, Like I think ever since seeing a therapist, I was like, okay, well I'm getting better, I'm getting better. I must be better. It must be better. Now. I did stop seeing a therapist for a while there and started to like come off my medication and yeah, I don't know, I just felt
like it creeps back. It creeps back, like the head noise creeps back in where I think for me, the biggest thing was like my inner fight or flight would be flight, Let's get the fuck out of here, which sucks because I love my family very much, but it was something else telling me that you need to get yourself out of this situation, you don't need to be here. But always I would be like I could never do that.
I could never let my family down like that. And April was always really good at pointing it out, like mate, you know. And there's been times where like I've woken April up in the middle of the night where I've woken up with anxiety and been like or even situations where I've woken up saying that I don't want to be here anymore, which is you know, She's been real
strong about that. And also she's had times where she said to me, like, I'm sick of you telling me you don't want to be here anymore sometimes and it's not me. It's not me, And it is really hard to maintain. And that's the thing, like people think the hard part is I hate to break it too, people. It's the hard part is not going to face your demons. It's maintaining them. And some people, some people don't just struggle even more with that because the maintenance part is
so hard. Like I seeing my therapist. I saw my therapist the other day and she was like, she just straight up to me and said, you've lost focus. She could just heelp, you've lost focus. Why you want to be better for your family, You've lost focus why you want to be better for yourself. You need to find the focus again. Otherwise, if it gets too far away,
you're slip into denial. Then you'll start to deny that you've got a problem, which you do that all the fucking time anyway, but it becomes more prominent and more front focus that you don't have a problem, and then all of a sudden you slip into serious depression and anxiety and we all know what can happen there where people take their own lives, which is absolutely tragic. But when you suffer with it, and you you suffer in silence,
it must be way worse. There's been times where April's like I don't know what's going to happen, like I'm afraid to leave you alone, or look, it hasn't been a lot of times, but it has been times, and there's been times where like I reckon I think about escape once a day in some capacity, whether it's me reflecting on it or reflecting on what I would have done, and you know how I would have escaped, or like I don't mean like harm myself, I just mean like get out, get away.
Yeah. Is that because you think the environment with the family and with your kids is such a trigger point for Yeah, you having your mental health issues that by removing yourself from that it'll make things better. Is that why you want to escape? Yeah?
I kind of thought like if I remove myself, I'd be better. Like it's not really the case, is that you know you can't. It's such a shit way to think about, like you can run away from your problems and people do, oh for sure, And look I would regret that, and my my therapist and I talk about that a lot, talk about that, like, if I'd have done that, I would have made it would be the worst thing I could have done. I would have been separated from my on exile island, from my children, you
know what I mean. Which there's challenges now, but like they're nowhere near as challenging as it was. I was adamant that I didn't want to have a second child, but now like I can't imagine my life without a second child.
Yeah, I guess because having Oscar like that was you know, it was a line in the sand where post childbirth, that's when these problems started to really rear its head. Were you thinking, Gosh, if I have a second child, I'm going to.
Do it again?
Yeah?
I think. Yeah. It was like I hated so much of what he did to April, hated it, hated coming home to see her, and she was a shell of who the person that I used to know. And there were times there that I just hated everybody. And then when it came around too, like, look, we were in a much better place, we had learned so much. We've sort of had the conversation a lot of times about a second kid, and I think when we decided to
do it, we were in a much better place. It still had its dramas, and then you threw COVID on top of that as well, which we had got COVID six weeks into having Macie, and it was like the fucking worst, you know, because then you're isolated on top of that as well. But I think we had the tools to manage it better, and you know, we were much more able to have the conversations with each other that we felt like we weren't allowed to have back then. You know, like April'll been able to pull me up
and say you need to go. You need to even just go and do something for yourself right now because you're not the best version of you.
So you talk about maintenance being one of the hardest things. Yeah, so what are the tools that you have in your kind of arsenal that you rely on to make sure that maintenance is still a priority.
Look, I try and make sure that I keep my appointments with my therapists regularly, even when I feel like I'm okay, even when it's not a trick, you know, and it's like I don't know what I'm going to talk about. I feel like it's still a must to go and I never regret it, never regret going. It's not the cheapest exercise, don't get me wrong, but like it's worth every cent. That's one big thing where it's like always go back. I think, Like for me, I don't have like a lot of coping mechanisms that I
know of. Like, look, I'm quite a heavy drinker. But when I first started to become a really heavy drinker, it was to escape. But now I don't drink to escape. I drink, you know, mainly for the social and the fun aspect in that I do find myself sometimes down in the dumps about it, but I can recognize it pretty quickly. But like in terms of like coping, the exercise has been a big one. Look at the moment,
because I've been crooked. Shit, it sucks, and I do recall, like when we're in isolation a lot, running like really was amazing for my mental health, That's right. I was like I was doing like ten or fifteen k's a day every day because it made me feel so good. You know. I surf a lot as much as I can, and I find like the high after that, you know, it gets me through it.
But yeah, I've always said I've never been one to meditate.
I couldn't do that really either. I tried really hard.
I tried so hard everybody else who was doing it would look at me and go, this is going to change your life. Yeah, And I was like, I want to tap into that so hard and then.
It's practice, right, And Abel and I would meditate together a bit there to try encourage us to do it. I found that what worked better for me was breathing exercises like whim Half. And I've gotten slack again because sick, unmotivated. It's hard to breathe when you can't breathe through your nice But yeah, I found that after a while like wim Hof, because I could concentrate on the breath better than I could concentrate on the voice, you know what I mean. I find I would drift off so much,
but it's practice. And like people who are really good at meditation, they'll tell you I've practiced my ass off to be here, which is fair. It wasn't something that I overly used as a tool. I found the exercise and running and that sort of stuff was much better used to go to the gym a lot. I also found friends were really good. It was really good to have like friends that you could talk to about It was really really important. And sometimes even helping friends as
well really help me. And that's what is also really important. If someone never discounts someone saying that they're not feeling okay. I found that like I could be like, what do you mean? Because I would have I might not have the answers.
Would you ask the same questions that the therapist.
Would No, Nah, because it's really important, and I step into my office, it's really important not to provide a solution, but just hit listen. Yeah, that was the biggest thing.
Because I guess one question that I think would be really helpful is what advice would you give to somebody else if their friend is in a similar situation where they're reaching out and they're saying I'm not okay. How is it best to manage those conversations? You think, knowing what you know now.
Don't be expected to provide a solution. Like I said, just listen sometimes and I've said it to April a few times, I said, I don't want you to give me a solution. Don't give me a fucking answer. I just want you to listen, because as well intentioned as the solution might be, it's not what I want from you right now. So like if I've had friends that have come to me and said I'm not okay, what should I do? I always say CGP straight away, see
a professional is what you should do. But if you don't want to do that, you don't want to go through that, mate, I'll sit here for an hour while you talk, and if you want me to provide any insight, I will. But if you don't want me to, there's no judgment from me whatsoever. I'll sit here with you for as long as it takes. That's really powerful as well. But like I always say, go and see GP. They're not going to bite your head off. All they're going
to do is provide some tools. And whether you want the I need heap to help because I feel like I'm going to off myself or I want to escape my reality or whatever it might be. You can go as far as that. Or if it's like look, I just sometimes I just need someone to talk to. They can provide you someone or a helpline or some other tools. There's so much stuff out there. Yeah, Like I always try and push people to see you gp.
It's funny. Even I'm really fortunate in that I don't suffer from depression, but.
You know, of.
We should, hey, but that's what we do.
Yes, that's what's true.
But there are so many times as a parent, as a husband where I am really frustrated. I have really bad days, and my biggest coping mechanism is going for a run. Laura can see the change in me almost instantly as obvious as like, as I'm doing tasks around the house, I'm heavy footed, getting a bit eggy. The way in which I talk to Lawa and the kids, Laura can tell that that's creeping up and straight away she's like, get outside, yeah, get a change of scenery.
You know, whether it's a half an hour run, whatever you do, just to like blow those co webs out makes such a huge difference, it does.
And like even if you go for a walk, man, Like there's been times where I've gone I don't want to go for a run because I don't feel like sweet masks off. I'll just go for a walk, man, I'll chuck something in like I always as well try and listen to people, people who create music, and some of thetime you know in their backstory, like someone like post Malone or someone like Gang of Views and they've
got a backstory something like that. I'll always try to do to give me some perspective or to make me feel like where I'm at that other people are in the same situation, and that does help me through, even if it's just on a walk or something like that, because we all know that can be fucking sometimes, but just you know, get out in it. You know, it's just one of many ways that you can help yourself. Everyone's got their own their own thing that makes them happy,
right own hobbies. And I've noticed it even going for escape now, like just changes just changes how I'm feeling.
Yeah, And I think that's the biggest surprise, is that you look at someone at face value. And the last thing I ever would have imagined is that you would have this story with your mental health challenges. Like I would have said that you are someone that would be so far from any type of depression social anxiety because you are someone who is able to hide that quite well.
Yeah, I hide behind a few things. I hide behind this mustache a lot. I would refuse to. I find it's sort of something that sits in front of my face that's sort of a bit like a shield. I wear a hat a lot because you know, I'm very open about the hat. I feel like it helps me with my anxiety. I will try and wear it in every situation. But yeah, I do hide behind the humor a lot. I like to take the piece out of everything, even myself, a lot, because I feel like it helps me through.
Definitely, I think it doesn't matter who the individual is and their circumstances. I think mental health is something that anyone can.
Struggle can struggle with it, whether it's mineor or major. But I feel like it's really important.
But also I think it's I think one of the greatest things about your story is that it's something that you are now in control of.
Yeah, totally. Like I said, the best thing I ever did was seek help or find my voice about it, because you start to find out so much about yourself. And I think, like I said, everyone everyone should go and see someone. Whether you don't think you should or not, or whether you think you're completely fine or not, there's no harm in trying to find a bit more about yourself. Because it could help you down the track.
Definitely, Ash, I want to say thank you for being really vulnerable. I know it sounds like a weird thing to say at the end of this, but I can only appreciate how hard it would be as a topic to unpack, especially because it's so far from what we normally talk about.
Yeah, look for me, I'm happy to do it, and I'm always been very transparent. And if you know one person listening to this can find some relatability, or find some comfort or find encouraged voice, then I'm happy with that.
And look, if you're listening in any of the topics, have struck a call with you and you think I do want to reach out. Obviously, as Ash said, there is the GP, but some other really amazing organizations out there are Lifeline, there is suicide Callback service and also Beyond Blue support service as well. The contact details for each of those will put into the show notes, but also there's a great page on the November website which lists out all these organizations and the contact details. So
please don't be shy to reach out. And I will say as well that if there is anyone who you think has immediate danger with their own life obviously called Triple zero. Sure but ash, thanks again.
Thank you, and look, if you don't want to get in touch with any of them, just get in touch with me if you want. I'm happy to sit and listen, so dm us if you like.
Before we go, we do just want to give one last thanks to today's sponsor, Lululemon. They are global technical, athletic atpower brands. They are forty four stores across Australia and New Zealand, creating transformational products and experiences for both men.
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Thanks Lululemon. Two Doting Dads podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the connections to land, see and community.
We pay our respects to their elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestrate Islander peoples today. This episode was recorded on Gadagal Land