Ashton, the Lovely, the Gorgeous Victoria Devine. She is best known as the host of the wildly successful podcast She's on the Money, which we actually filled in on a number of months ago.
Yes, that was the episode I got flack for not throwing my kids' birthday parties.
Yes correct.
She's also the founder of Zella Money, a mortgage broking business, and the author of several books Matthew, that's right, I said several, which includes her most recent cover Business Bible.
But most importantly, she is the mom of eight month old Harvey.
Yes, Victoria shares her experience of what led up to her pregnancy with a little boy that includes two miscarriages along the way.
Yeah. She gives us a glimpse into what it must feel like for the wonderful woman who have to go through child loss.
She also shares a list of requirements given to her visitors wanting to meet her newborn in hospital.
I'm assuming which should ruffle one or two feathers out there, ash As a finance expert, Victoria also shares her thoughts on two big parenting money questions. Shall we get into a big boy apps?
Absolutely?
Welcome back to two doting dads and one doting mum. I am Maddie, J I'm.
Ash and I am Victoria.
And this is a podcast all about parenting. It is the good, it is.
The bad and the relatable.
And we always say no advice. However, Victoria, if there's anyone who is ever going to give any type of advice on this podcast, I believe it would be you.
Thank but like more financial advice.
Everything we're hoping for first and.
Foremost advice is stickle. You guys are brave.
Mainly because sometimes every now and then we'll talk about something that's medical and we always just say, look, we're not the experts. We'll get the diagnosis, the name, everything completely wrong. So just if anyone is PA's.
With a grain of salt and pretend that we're at the pub having a chat. Take it like that.
One time we did like we were trying to figure out how to do a pregnancy test. I was like, don't you just do it?
Well? We weren't sure if it was.
Like different sorts of ways.
We thought it might be like a tea bag scenario in the toilet bowl once you pee the to anyway, it all, Victoria, we would like to know, yes, Ash and I were talking about what a younger Victoria would have been like, and we I think we both agreed that you would have been someone who I think would have been school captain.
Oh yeah, yeah, I didn't get due, let's go back and get it. I didn't. I didn't, but you won't be surprised to you that my boyfriend at the time did. It was a thing. I was so envious.
You're dumping.
Yeah, I mean at some point I did. At some point I did. But yeah, younger Victoria, she do you know what, She's exactly what you thought she was. Wow, she's exactly like she was debating team captain. I did athletics, like, what's my athletics? Oh what, it's obviously like the Rock of Dedford for maths.
I thought it would be like.
And then someone's like, and.
You just give it. I would die under that.
I thought that's what it was like.
I know, she's she's exactly what you thought she would be.
You're someone to me who just exudes confidence.
That's very kind because it's not true. It's not true.
It is it's an athletics.
It's the athletics. It's the fake it till you make it vibe I'm an.
Anxious I don't believe you at all.
You say that, but like my anti anxiety medication.
Mix it with a coffee, And did you trip up at all? Did you get any into any trouble?
Surely?
Do you know what?
I was a goody two shoes honestly, Like I like my parents always like you were a goody two shoes. Your sister, on the other hand, like she made for it. I mean, I won't go on and on because I don't know how much she would like that. But we had to call the police. My dad, my own dad called the police to my own sister's sixteenth birthday.
Wow, because why.
They were teenagers jumping over the back fence project X sort of yeah, like just very very interesting. My my sister had said to my parents, Oh, it's my sixteenth birthday, can we just have like a barbecue at home? And Dad, you like do a barbecue? And my was like, awesome, great, Like you're going to invite some friends and Alix. Yeah, Mom's like do you want to send out invites? ALEX just like nah, like send out in mites and.
Then word of mouth people were then.
Like the cops came and scored people out of the house. My parents had to replace the carvet in the front room.
Like, holy shit, were you at home at the time.
Yeah, it was great party, making me look so good, Alex.
Did you know then from an early age what you wanted to be when you grew up?
No, No, I thought when I feel like I put a lot of pressure on myself because I am very academic, Like I love a study and that's not something that lots of people can resonate with, Like I just love learning. I also have ADHD. I have been diagnosed since I
was like eighteen. I think I got diagnosed in Medica then. Yeah, and I used to go but I used to be so embarrassed of it, like I would lie through my teeth, Like I used to take my medication, pop it out of all of the medication things and put it in a panidole container in my handbag because I was so scared that someone would see that I was taking dex hampetter meane and be like, she's crazy, She's crazy.
How does it feel now that all these diagnoses.
You believed believed because you know, as somebody with ADHD, you like see it in other people and you're like you're a bit the same. Hey, like you kind of look at someone and go I see a lot of me and you I get it, and then they go I've got ADHD and I'm like, whoa, I'm so surprised.
I started so then I was like, this is just gonna take too long.
Unless you're really struggling, like the diagnosis process nowadays really arduous. So anyway, loved studying and I thought I wanted to be a doctor and then decided that's probably not for me. Wanted to do psychology. How was it not for you to think the part where like blood.
And that's why I'm not a doctor.
Either, that's like a mechanic.
And then I went to psychology, did psychology, got into like a child psychology like internship, and this was in the last year of my degree before honest, and I thought this is gonna be great, like I have done it, and I was so proud of myself because that was like one of the hardest internships to secure. I love a flex Oh got the best one, thank you mum. Anyway, got that and I hated it. After two weeks, I
was like crying, I hate it. Like the idea that you can'tn't pick up kids and take them home and take them out of their situation. I was like, hold on, you're telling me that psychology is about helping people deal with their situations, not fixing it. Like I'm a fixer, Like I'm that person that you come to for advice, and I'll be like, all right, whether you want this or not, this is.
What you need to do.
And then I'm not offended if you don't do it. I get it, but I'm always going to go into solution mode. So didn't like that. Had a midlife crisis during university and I was like, where's my career going? And realized through some careers counseling at UNI that there was this thing called organizational psychology, which is the science of people at work. So you could do psychology but for like CEOs and leaders and help them develop into
better leaders and manage people properly. And I thought kind of like a life coach kind of, but like you actually have a degree, you don't just put it in your bio. I'm going to put it in my BioPen it's working anyway. Did that for a while and started to learn about finance, got myself into a whole heap of debt and needed to work that out, and realized that there was a lot of power in studies of Oh I wish I could be like, oh, yeah, of course,
it was like student debt. No, I bought a car and then I went to France and then I went all around Europe and then I had a really good wardrobe, so many nice shoes.
Yeah, a little experience too, though.
Oh live love laugh. But a credit card, Oh no, go hard, I got a person alone. Yeah. So my dad's an accountant, and I hid that from him.
Obviously he would have seen the signs though. Yeah, there was to get this car from a found. I come here in France and this car is still here, and you've got a brand new wardrobe full of shoes. I don't know. I don't know.
I came home from France with forty thousand dollars worth of personal debt and realize.
You're like Will and you assist did have another birthday party.
I was like, I probably should do something about it, but for a long time buried my head in the sand. I hated the idea of it. It was really embarrassed of it, Like you don't want to tell your mates, and at the time, I felt a lot of pressure because I had gone into a very corporate role, so done an organizational psyche it on as you went into
this like consultant role. It wasn't a grad role. And I was like in with all these like big dog forty year olds who had powersuits and like were looking really good, and I'm like, they've got their lives together, Like I'm going to have my life together. And in my head it was age that gave you life experience. It was age that helped you get your finances sorted,
not the suit. No, it turns out no. But I was just like, oh, like i can do whatever I want because one day I'm going to be forty in have a house and all of those things because it just happens, right.
That's very true. You've just triggered something there for me where it's like I remember thinking, like when I was younger, that you're like, yeah, i'll have it sort of when i'm older.
Yeah, I'll sort it when i'm older. I'll do it when i'm older. And it turns out none of these people had shit together. And I was like learning more about you know, them and their personal lives and like, as a consultant, you travel a lot, so we're like in lots of hotels and going out for like dinners and stuff, and they'd be talking about their divorces that be talking about, you know, not being able to buy houses.
And I remember being like, oh, I thought that when you got to forty five, it was like a rite a passage, you owned a property, you work for one of the Big four. What are you talking about? Like it just the math wasn't mathing in my head, and I realized I probably should sort my own finances out instead of just paying the minimum repayment on my personal loan. So started to look into that and just found a passion because I realized the power that taking control of
your finances could have. It was making me feel better, it made the people around me feel better. I was like going to brunch with my girlfriends being like, okay, so if you looked at your super because like, oh, I don't know if you know this, but if you don't take control of this now, it's going to cost you like seventy thousand dollars worth of fees over the long term. And like my friend's like, no, I didn't know exactly my account.
She like, just drink the bloody Mary.
So yeah, ended up loving finance and kind of one thing led to another and I realized maybe that's where I should be and sectioned on in.
I do have to congratulate you for what you've built. I'm going to call it an empire.
Thank you. It doesn't feel like an empire. It feels like a ship show. But you were just.
Talking about some of your staff and I'm like, it's it's very impressive.
And do you know what the one stuff you've got I wanted it first.
I can say what you think about it.
I like you guys, so you could keep her perfect during this time when you are building your business. What was your thought process in regards to having kids.
I when I was really young, I'm very maternal, Like, I love kids. If you've got babies, please show me your pictures. Like I was always maternal, but I just wanted to look to your right, pretty.
He's oldest child.
No, I just I wanted kids. I just didn't know how that was going to happen. And that was one of the things that was starting to stress me out. So at the same time as being in personal debt, I just come out of a really long term relationship because I was in a relationship from when I was fourteen to twenty two with the.
Guy who got ducks.
We don't like, yeah, I mean so lovely, which is so annoying. Isn't that annoying when you're like, yeah, is your exit?
No, he also got ducks.
He's really smart. So got out of that and was just like finding my feet and was like, you know when you're twenty two and you're just like, it's never going to happen for me, Like you're single and you think you're never going to meet the love of your life because you've left it too late, like dumb, But do you know what I mean, it's so dumb. You're just like, what is going on? Anyway? I think I was, Yeah, okay, boys have a lot of a different mentality.
Was on a TV show.
Yeah, but I remember being twenty eight and kind of thinking like the thought of, hey, maybe it won't happen. Does pop in every now and then?
And oh is this going to work out? They're really expensive, that's a lot of commitment. Like I love kids, but like all these people are looking about getting up at five am, and I'm not a morning person is it like, and they're dumb things that now I look back and I'm like, that's so dumb that I was.
It's definitely like the like your young mind thinking, like.
You just extrapolate out catastrophe anyway, So I really wanted kids, but I knew I was really purposeful. This is going to sound so lame, and I'm so happy to share it. But like when I was dating, I would often like go home to my housemate, who was my best friend still is my best friend. We've had kids at the same time. It's the best and be like, oh no, you would your shit dad.
Like wow, n or some of those red flags that will make you think they'd be a.
Bad really irresponsive, like really self centered, like oh just you know those things where you're just like I know that you like really underlying misogyny, like just thinking that there are gender roles, but you're dating on Tinder, so you're gonna get like I ended up meeting my husband on Tinder, so it's not all bad, but yeah, I just remember being like, red.
Flag, do you remember the green flags?
When my husband whipped out photos of his friend's kids and oh yeah, on the weekend, I was like look how cute she and I was like okay. And then as time went on, he got nieces and nephews, and seeing him with his nieces and nephews, I.
Was like, can we talk about your husband you met on Tinder? We did classic modern love story. Just give us a little insight to how that went down.
So I've got dating rules so on Tinder. I thought you guys would like this on Tinder, and I will tell anybody who will listen. Everybody complains, They're like, oh, I never meet the right person online dating because it's so hard, And I'm like, it's because you're not like putting some boundaries in place. I would only go on dates on Monday or Tuesday nights because I'd say we can grab a drink after work, because it gives me
the ability to like have a drink with them. We all know that I don't mind turning up to work hungover, so like, if it goes well, I can have a few glasses and some dinner with you and have a nice evening on a Monday. But if it doesn't, I can be like, I've got work really early, so I have to go home and cut it early. Also, the type of person that's willing to go on a Monday date.
They know it's not like a Friday night where they can call you up and be like you up, Like, it's not like if you're willing to go on a Monday date with me, Like you knew it was a glass of wine after work, Like the expectations have been set without me having to articulate them. And so we did that. My husband and I ended up having a whole bottle of wine that night and basically seeing each other every single night for the rest of our lives.
Wow, so Wednesday night's off the cards.
Oh do you know what Wednesdays is?
Goodnight?
Well, in my head, especially because when I first started online dating, I'd come out of this long term relationship, and I found that social balance of like dating plus maintaining my friendship groups, and like, if I was going on a date on a Friday night, I'd be like, oh, I'm not going out with the girls. They're getting espressos after work, And like I found that by saying, do you know what, I'm only going to on first date? So not all dates, but first dates on Mondays or Tuesdays.
That means that the weekends are for the girls, I still have my life balance that I want. My friends aren't being left behind, and it turns out that I did meet the love of my life, So like, that's pretty slight, it's pretty good.
With there any other rules that we should be aware of?
No, just like the Monday night setting some expectations, Like I'm a bit of a rules girl, as you guys know.
We will get into some more rules a little bit later. Was was there any kind of checklist that you wanted to follow? Because I feel like you are and I love it.
No, I didn't. Not with dating, oh my.
Without with having kids though, because people are often.
Things I wanted to do before.
I'm also like the question of how do I know when I'm ready?
So my husband was ready the year that we met, Like he would have had kids, I think, and been very happy to have kids. I mean, we probably would have wanted to work out a few like semantic things. But I was the one who was like, I really want to get my businesses into a place where I
could walk away comfortably. Like if we had gone back three or four years and I had a baby, my businesses would have suffered way too much, Like they would have absolutely gone to the curb, and I knew that when Steve and I were getting married, we kind of had you always plan it, right, You're like, I'm going to get married, We're going to do this, We're going to do that, because like I knew that we were going to get engaged, like and I know that that's
not that romantic. It was a surprise. I didn't know when where, but like we'd spoken about marriage, so obviously that was a stead it's going to happen, and like, I'm not letting my husband spend that much on a ring without I was doing some budgeting, like it's so there was a lot that I wanted to do. And in fact, I sold my financial advice business because I knew that I couldn't have so many plates spinning by
the time that I wanted to have kids. So I decided to focus on my mortgage breaking business and my podcast and then give away that financial advice business. So in September twenty twenty two, I sold that. In November twenty twenty two, I got married, and the plan was to have babies after that.
So did you want to have like certain financial goals before you started to try to have kids.
I definitely wanted to make sure that we had a solid ground. In my head, I wanted to own property. It was just something that was financially achievable for my husband and I. But I think for me that was just because I wanted financial security. I also own a mortgage breaking business, and I know that, don't you.
Own my own soul. I was kindergarten, primary school and.
Then my mortgage breaking business. Through that, I know that to get alone with dependence is going to drop your borering capacity. So I was like, I kind of want to secure that before I have all these dependents.
That's good advice, that's solid.
I meant that I could borrow more money and get the house that.
Can it gives your kids back and then go, oh.
No, sorry the kids didn't come up in the meeting with the broker.
Sorry about that.
So I knew I wanted to do that. But for me, I also wanted to have a pretty healthy emergency fund because you never know what's going to happen, and kids are expensive, and birth is expensive or it can be quite expensive, and you just never know. And like for me, I wasn't sure whether I would take you know, two weeks of maternity leave. Or I'd fall in love with this stay at home monthing and need to take twelve months. So we really had to plan financially to go with
this situation. Work with that because, as you guys know, you could plan and then the baby comes near like this is nothing lack we expected.
Oh yes, yeah it's not.
This isn't what the box said.
There's also like this thing thing online about how people were saying, this is how much it costs to have a baby.
Yeah, I got savaged, like I got sad. So I did a podcast on my experience, and I track everything. You guys know, I had a spreadsheet you'd like to know. I have a line item of how much I spent on Gaviscon while I was pregnant. How much it was like three hundred and eighty something. Yeah, there was a lot of Gaviscon. But that's fine for heartburn. Yeah, it's a heartburn and refox.
Please tell me they ended up sponsoring your podcast.
You know they didn't call MEMI. Yeah, I worked hard for that. And fruit Tingles they care to be in business, but it's one of those things that you just can't predict one what that pregnancy is going to cost, and it could be really low cost. You could go through the public system, which in Australia is incredible, or like me, I was like, oh, I have private health. I want to go through this, but like I didn't know how much that would cost. And I was a financial advisor,
but I didn't realize that. I don't know if it's different in Sydney, but like we had to pay our obstetric out of pocket that was like ten grand, and then on top of that you have the excess for the hospital, and then the scans on top of that, because it wasn't public, were like four hundred and fifty dollars each and like you get what's seventy dollars back of that, And so for us, pregnancy really added up. And I'm very grateful that we had the capacity to
pay for that. But at the same time, I'm like, does everybody do this? How are you guys budgeting for this? Because like this is insane to me, and I'm not complaining, but I'm also like, we need to be better at planning financially because you don't have to do it the way I did.
It.
Wouldn't it be nice that if something's hitting the fan, you have the cash flow available to go. I'd have a lot more peace of mind if we went and just got another ultrasound, Like I'd just be able to sit better at night. And I'd want people to have that flexibility.
A lot of people that can't afford to do that and they're not aware of.
Yeah, you just don't know your options either if you don't do enough research into your finances, because the more you research into what would this cost, you're like, oh, that cost came out. I didn't realize that might be part of it, And why do I have this? And it's kind of like working backwards, don't know if.
There's any other complications that happened after birth as well. It's kind of like we've just spent all this money trying to do things the safest and the most a peace of mind, but then anything could happen.
Right, you can't control it, and like that's exactly what happened. I was so hippie dippy. I spent so much money on at cupuncture in the lead up to birth, and I saw this gorgeous birth physio. She was a midwife and a physio, and we did all of these like opening up your hips, massages and stuff and it ended up in an emergency Cisian money.
Well, of course, our birth plan goes out the windows early.
Who she? We don't know her.
We want to talk about your pregnancies, yes, and we spoke before we started recording about your miscarriage.
Yes.
And I want to know what was it like leading up to your first miscarriage after you have been pregnant? Was it twelve weeks?
Yeah? So we lost our first pregnancy at ten weeks and we lost our second pregnancy at twelve weeks, and we still don't know why. So like there's obviously no reason why, but like, let's be honest, it was really shit. Was shit for me, It was shit for my husband the first time though. I don't know how much do you want me to get into it, but like I found out that I was miscarrying because I was bleeding,
and that's obviously a really stressful period of time. I was so excited though, because like I'd want a baby's for so long found out I was pregnant. I told everybody, like I had told every mannitty dog, like I can't keep a secret to save my life. So if you've got them, don't tell them to me, because I will yap. I just come on, I'm just so excited about it.
How long have you been trying for before you?
We were really lucky. We got pregnant really quickly. So our first pregnancy, it turns out when I went on my honeymoon, which was we got married and then there was a few weeks and then we went on a honeymoon. Because work life balance, it's out the window. It turns out we tried on our honeymoon, but I was actually already pregnant, so that was really good.
So we had go before then.
Yeah, what a man, well, Steve Golds. So that that was really surprising because I for my whole life had period issues and like you know, lots of like women issues. That meant I just assumed it was going to be really hard, and it happened really quickly, and I was like, wow,
this is magic, this is really cool. I was a bit anxious because I hadn't started like taking the prenatles and stuff and like you want to do all of the right things, and so yeah, I went to a work event and found that I was bleeding and was like.
Oh, did you feel No, I felt.
Fine, Like everything was hunky, dory. I did have pretty bad morning sickness, but like in my head that was like a good thing, right, like that's a sign of a sticky good pregnancy. And yeah, was bleeding and did a bit of googling and had convinced myself that was actually okay because it was only a little bit. And then I went home and it just got worse and worse. I ended up in emergency with my husband, and yeah,
they let us know that that wasn't viable. And then that in itself is a bit of a circus because you get there and I at that point I knew what was happening, like you can't that amount of blood, that amount of blood, that situation, like it was stressful because emergency. Obviously I'm not gushing blood out of my arm. I don't need stitches. I'm not the priority. I get it, but like your baby, at that point, nothing could feel more urgent. So it just felt like they were moving
at snail's pace. And then they lost my blood work three times, so like we'd gone into emergency straight after my work events. So I was like, maybe they're from two pm till five am, and they kept losing the blood work and I kept saying, I know what's happening. Can I just go home? And they were like, no, I'm really sorry. We need to actually like make sure this isn't an ectopic pregnancy, because if it is, we need to do surgery and all of that other stuff.
So you're just sitting in limbo in an emergency with some dude beside you complaining about his toe, and you're just like, this is not the moment. So that happened, and it was really bad because I came home and then had to tell everybody that that had happened and it wasn't. I'm the type of person where, yeah, that was devastating. I was so upset, But I'm also really pragmatic.
It's not meant to be. It's not meant to be, and I'm a bit hippie dippy, so I'm very much okay cool, Like I have a sun Harvey now, and I'm very much of the opinion that his little soul was destined for me and those other previous babies they had the same soul that body just didn't work, and that really has helped me be like, no, like, in the moment, it feels like your world is ending, But now I'm like, okay, cool, Like that was just part of the journey for me to get Harvey Like, it's
not good, but that's part of the journey, right.
I try and remember we'd a really similar scenario. Laura miscarried in a similar way that she found out by bleeding and it didn't stop. Kind of thing back to how we managed the emotional whiplash of thinking you're pregnant one second and then finding it You've lost over the next and it's like all your hopes.
And dreams have been wished, Like I've just been ripped away.
Yeah, you can't help, but imagine, you know, life as a parent, you know, like changing your baby's nappy, like going to the park. You know, as you're thinking about as pregnancy, you look at other families and everything around you is just all baby, baby, baby. Yeah, how do you digest the news?
I gaslp myself a lot, so I was like, it's fine, these things happen. It's one in four, like all of that stuff that you hear. I didn't really know anybody with it. When I started to share that I had been through it, though, people would be like, oh us too. I'd be like sorry, what, Yeah, I mean, like, you know, i'd talk to someone like you, Matt, and you'd be like, yeah, we went through that. I'd be like, sorry, what like when? How like what happened? What did you do? And so
it was nice to talk about it. I did feel awkward talking about it because, like, you know, I might bop on into a podcast recording with someone and haven't seen you guys in ages, and you might go, how's the pregnancy, And I'd have to be like, oh, I'm going to make this really awkward for you, and I think that I'm one of those people. I don't want to make it awkward. I'd be like, I'm really sorry,
but I'm okay. But also, this happened, and that was I hated delivering the news that it wasn't there, which is why I waited with my second and then third pregnancy so long to tell people. Not because I was waiting for that twelve weeks, but I just I didn't want to tell someone something to then have to make it awkward to bring it back up. I don't know. It was an interesting period of time, but I definitely gas liped myself into being like, wine, this happens a lot.
I was heartbroken, but like I probably didn't process it the way that I would, which is why the second time it happened it was way worse.
After that, the thought of falling pregnant again, the anxiety.
Was so stressed. And I'm really lucky I get pregnant very quickly, which is so nice, and so many people struggle with that, and that made me feel guilty again because I was like, this is you know, that's the easy bit for me, and so many people struggle, and like we all struggle with different things. But I remember getting pregnant probably the month after our miscarriage, and it was an accident. We weren't not trying. We knew we wanted babies, but I just didn't think it would happen
that quickly. And then I found out I was pregnant and I was elated but terrified, Like I just cried for like three days because I was so scared of what would happen. And I called my doctor and I was like, what can I do? How can I make it sticky? Like how do I not lose this baby?
And he would just have the same morning sickness again.
Same thing. That's how I found out because I felt really off and I was like, we haven't tried yet, and so felt really off and took a pregnancy test elated, bit terrified, and my doctor was like, no, like it's so rare for it to happen a second time, like less than one percent of people experience recurrent this carriage. And I'm like, okay, all right, Like that that made
me feel a little bit better. I wasn't as anxious as my third pregnancy, but like this second one fine was going so well, Like because we had had a loss, We'd booked in really early with our obstetrician and I had like a six week scan, an eight week scan, a ten weeks like and I got to see this
baby all the time. And then we went to our twelve week scan and she had to say, I'm really sorry, but there's no heartbeat and the fack I had a missed miscarriage, which is where you don't know that you're not pregnant anymore, and the baby passed away, and so whipped down to the hall or we whipped down the hallway to another like ultrasound clinic because they have to like double check and make sure that the first one was right, and they confirmed it and they said you
can go home. I said what I said, you can go home, like and see if you naturally miscarrie, We'll call you in a couple of days and see how you're going. I mean, my OB was very empathetic, she was very kind, But you're like, what do you mean I just go home? You just told me that I'm not pregnant anymore. I'm still so full of morning sickness. I'm so like, what do you mean I feel pregnant? Like, okay, so go home and I wait and I wait and nothing happened. Should call every day and be like, how
are you feeling? Has anything happened? And I'd be like no, because in a lot of those situations and OB will pick it up, or your doctor will pick it up, and then you will just start bleeding at home and like things will progress naturally. It didn't for me, and so I had to go in for a DNC and like going to hospital do all of that? What's d and sorry, so it's a I can't even remember it.
So something in curatedge it's basically where they perform a medical procedure to remove the baby and like all of which is really stressful because obviously no one wants to go through that. In addition to that, you've got all of this doubt. What if they're wrong. What if I'm going into this surgery, like this surgery is real final, like they're going to take the baby out. What if they were wrong and they just couldn't see that. So
the anxiety of going into that was really awful. And I just remember that's when I really I wasn't as anxious that pregnancy because I was, like my doctor said, it was only one percent chance. The idea of getting pregnant a third time. Yeah, that wasn't very fun.
When you were in recovery following your second miscarriage. I'm assuming there's no silver bullet to something that you would do to try and make the situation easier for yourself and for your partner. But do you remember was there anything that that really helped you?
Oh?
My god, yes, it was the nurse. I was actually telling Zara, my assist, about this literally yesterday. We're grilled obviously talking about my miscarriage, which is very normal for me as you do as you do, and I remember it didn't really hit me, like you go through the motions, right, like a doctor tells you you're going to go into hospital this time, go in your check in whatever, real clinical like I'm not crying or anything, I'm not upset.
Wasn't until they started going, all right, we're going to take you down to surgery, and they like put the sides of the bed up, and I was hysterical, like I it was uncontrollable. And there was this gorgeous nurse and she like grabbed my hand and was stroking my hand and she's like, I will just be here because my husband couldn't come into surgery with me, and so like he walked all the way. But anyway, she was holding my hand and she was stroking it and being like, oh,
it's okay. I've been here and it gets better. I promise it's okay. And she was like the most wholesome person in the entire world. And I just remember it was like I don't need you to tell me I'm going to be okay. But the empathy of somebody just being like this really fucking shit, I'm really sorry, you are making the right decision, like it like just validating what I'm going through, like I don't need someone to go.
We went through that, and what happened was and like, I just don't have the mental capacity for that right now, but could you kind of just coddle me and make sure that I feel so cared about? And she did, and in a very full circle moment, I ended up having an emergency cesarian at the same hospital that I had my DNC performed at, and I again was quite upset because I had this like natural birth plan right like I was going to I was going to a
raw dog birth. I was gonna be the best birthing lady ever, and I was just really upset that I was going down into this emergency cesarean. I felt really out of control, and as you have probably learned, I don't like being out of control. That was not a situation I loved. And the same woman I lost it, I lost it.
Like I would she remember you?
Yeah, yeah, And I saw her. And when you're going into a cesarean, I don't know how it works at other hospitals, but you get you get like taken into the surgery and they say to your husband or your your birthday partner, wait out there, We're just going to get everything set up, and they they move you onto the bed and like get the little.
You hit one too.
Yeah, so you can hear that, but you can't see me and my We separated for a bit, and then you get invited back into the room once everything's ready for us.
They've dropped my wife. That's because I heard the bang.
Look after itsh.
Alright, didn't get yah.
Yah.
Steve comes back in. I'm hysterical because I'm just like this is meant to be. Like, there's this beautiful woman and she helped my hand again while I had Harvey, which was really cool. But that felt really full circle.
That was fucking crazy. That's cool. It also amazing that she remembered you because our midwife I saw her at the shops maybe like a few months after we'd given birth, and I was like, hey, and she didn't have any idea I was. I was like, that's right, she must do.
That every day.
My husband did humble me after because I was like, oh my god, it was amazing. I need to find out her name Rarah And he's like, how did you remember you? You must have been real hystericis thanks funny?
Amazing, Like just just the anxiety with Harvey of just like trying to make sure that nothing was going to go wrong. But it's so out of your control, is just so freaking scary.
It's terrifying. And I just kept in my head during her pregnancy, which for our third pregnancy, our obstetrician recommended that I started taking progesterone and like a few other things to hopefully help. And I don't know if it worked, but that pregnancy worked. So like the second I find out I'm pregnant again, one day, I will be running for the progesterone because in my head that worked. But I remember thinking that milestones were going to help my
mental health. So I'd be like, right, once we hit twelve weeks and we'd get to that scan and it's all good, it's gonna BEOK fine, And then it wasn't, and I was so anxious. And I don't believe that I enjoyed that pregnancy at all, because every time I thought about it, I was anxious. I ended up with preclampsia, so I was calling the hospital every year with my blood pressure and just like it was just a bit
of an experience. But I remember fourteen weeks. I was like, surely at fourteen weeks, because that's pretty legit.
Yeah, I'll be fine.
No, maybe twenty weeks. Maybe when you hit halfway. No, oh, maybe when I hit twenty three and like I reached that, you know, they say it's viable, a viable pregnant. Maybe that will make me feel good because if something happens, like they will go into like I see, like neo natal care or whatever. Nothing helped. It was when I had him in my arms and I'm like, we actually did it, like we didn't mess it up, Like what do you mean? That was when I started to be like, oh,
this is really real. But it did feel quite abstract because I think you also go into protecting yourself a little bit by being like, I'm going to distance myself from this baby a little bit, which then made me stressed. I'm like, am I not forming the right bond with this baby? And so it was an experience, I suppose.
And then what was the newborn phase? Like I mean, we're kind of almost still a newborn phase because you're eight months.
Now, which is wild. He's such a chunky boy, Like he's like thirteen kilos at.
Eight months, with my kid's like five and a half. Anyways, like fifteen, I.
Can't, I can't. He's so big. He's in like eighteen month old clothing. At eight, he's like a little good show your photo his little poma.
It's a bit of a flex when you get a big kid.
I can't put him in his carrier. I look novel carrying him like, oh, like getting him in and out of the car.
I'm like, with any parts that you found really difficult.
A few. I think going from being so career orientated to being a mum where I'm home all the time, I really struggled with because I felt like, what am I meant to do with my hands when he's asleep, Like I'm what am I supposed to do? I also really struggled with breastfeeding that never worked for me from being in the hospital. It was painful, it was hard. My son had a tongue tie that we ultimately had to get cut, which was okay, but then once he was feeding properly, I think it was a bit too late.
So I went on the medication to increase my milk supply and all that did was make me put on seven kilos, which didn't impact my mental health at all. But it's one of those things that that didn't work. But I was so like, I have to breastfeed, like I have to. Why, I don't know, there's so much pressure. But I'm a really logical person. So if you came to me and said I'm struggling breastfeeding, first thing I do,
be like, you know, you could just use formula. But then the pressure you put on yourself to like be this stereotypical mum, You're just like, but I have to. I have to try. And so I was trying and trying, and I was crying, my boobs were cracked. My song was,
you know, not putting on wage. The maternal health nurse was consistently like, hey, like we need to do formula top ups, and I was like, okay, we can, but like, I'm trying so hard, and I was like doing what's called triple feeding, where you like feed the baby from the breast, you then feed them with a bottle and pump,
and it killed me, like it was a circus. I feel like once I finished that and put him to sleep, I was cleaning pumps and bottles and then going back to do it again around the clock, and it just
my milk supply never increased. And I think that pressure to breastfeed and it's so easy for so many women in my mother's group, and I remember looking at them being like I felt I felt bad pulling a formula bottle out of the pram and like you shouldn't, no, no, And now he's one hundred percent formula and we've never been happier and what the hell.
Was It's crazy this, Yeah, the expectation. I think that that mum was put on themselves, Like you were saying, like, if someone came to you and said, my baby's not not latching, you'd be like, just try some formula. And it's so easy to just say that, and I get that, right, Yeah, probably have other mums that when you were struggling, you were like actually really struggling mentally with the whole thing and.
The mental Yeah, it's the mental thing. It's not even like yeah, breastfeeding physically wasn't happening well, but it's the pressure. It's the anxiety, it's the feeling like a ship mom. And does that make your mom? Absolutely not? Absolutely not, And like I'm a better mum now my baby is on formula because he is happy, he is healthy, he is thriving, and so am I Like that's the ultimate outcome. So next baby, I'll give it a crack, sure, because
I actually enjoyed the active breastfeeding. It was really nice to form that bond. But once Harvey hit six months, I was still trying to breastfeed him. In six months and he was feeding morning and night, and I felt like that was a good bonding time, but also we were definitely still topping him up with formula. He got teeth and was like, hey, hey, I'm going to bite you, and I was like, do you know what I think
actually done? You didn't pass your six month probation, so we're just going to cancel this role and move on.
The only part that I didn't like about the fact that both our kids started bottle feeding pretty early on was the fact that I had to do the feeds at nighttime with Laura. And up until that point when Laura was breastfeeding, I had a pretty clean rid. Yeah, so when Laura was like, I think we're going to do formula, I was like, that's totally fine.
My husband took it like a champ. He was just like, oh, I'll do all of that. Like I feel like.
I've lucked down the green flag.
That's also that's also what I said, Okay, but.
Like, my husband walked the walk mat and do you know what this is? Such a flex. I was talking on the plane on the way here to one of my team members and I said, do you know how cool it is that I just I got up really early this morning, I got on a plane and coming to Sydney. I have an eight month old baby, and I didn't feel the need at all to leave my husband any instructions. Wow, I just knew he knew.
Does he not know the bar is that low?
He's just like, wow, man, we need to have a chat to him.
We need to talk to this girl.
It's the green flags. They lived up to their expectations.
They did, and I feel like that was actually something that was important to me dating and like finding a life partner. I did want a good dad. I was always like, I want to marry a good day. I had a good dad. Babies deserve that. And you know, sometimes you can't pick it, and sometimes the person that you think you're marrying ends up not being the person that you're marrying. Like there's so many different situations, but like, goddamn, am I so grateful that it actually worked out.
I should celebrate that behavior because jokes aside. That's that is how dads should be behaving. It shouldn't be a no noomally to have a dad like that.
Yeah, for sure.
But I remember being like, I should be celebrating because like, this is not what society has said is the expectation. Like I'm talking to other people that I know and they're like, oh my god, I had to leave frozen meals and I had to leave out a list and they didn't even know where, you know what the code was, a daycare drop off and all of this other stuff. And I remember being like.
How.
Just honestly, from a bloke perspective, a lot of blokes are useless.
Yeah, but like the other day I had to ask my husband. I was like, sorry, what was the and a formula? Again, I'm buying it, like maybe I'm a ship. What one was it? And he's like it's a Lula Advance, not Gold And I was like, oh, yeah, totally, I get it.
I do want to ask you about we've spoken about some of your dating rules. You do have some other rules that I'm going to bring up and just get yours.
Not everybody likes my rules.
I love it.
The internet doesn't seem to like my rules, but I think you guys.
Will, Okay, this is specifically for newborn stage.
I feel like we need to give a little bit of context because it makes me one, I feel like I'm justifying myself, but also it does make me seem a little bit more de lulu, and I think that works for you.
You have called yourself hippie dippy at least four times so fast.
But it is true.
I told you that.
Not only are these rules, but this is a set of rules that I sent out to all of my friends and family before I even had the baby.
Oh before you had the baby.
The baby didn't even even Oh my gosh, the baby hadn't been born yet.
Can I just give you the first one? Really quick? Hello, family and friends.
I'll take on the first rules. Some of these are very obvious.
I haven't seen this in a very very long time.
Let me refresh your memory. Rule Number one, please do not kiss our baby on their face.
I feel like that's reasonable. I agree, like babies get sick, they have really bad immune systems. I want to kiss my baby all over my face. I get it.
I get it too.
True doating dads your newborns did you want people kissing your baby on their face.
Well, our kids were COVID baby, it must be nice.
She's got you there, so no one.
Would have done that, correct. Yeah.
Point taken for my second was so we didn't have that problem. But the first one I can't. I can't remember. I think I don't think anyone did, maybe without me knowing or seeing. But like looking at this reading it going, that's so reasonable, especially with hsv RSV.
I want you to love my baby. I really do, totally, but and I'm not don't call it, but don't lick their face? Yeah?
Yeah, yeah, that's to be weird. It's like ugle Steve's out of the game.
Talk to my dog.
This one's also, I think, really reasonable. If you're sick, could be sick, or have been around someone who is sick, please reschedule you visit. We can't wait to share our baby with you, but also want to make sure they're say totally fair.
Okay, okay, I think that's very reasonable. I feel like not turning up when someone has a newborn and you're potentially sick.
Did you have to turn anyone away? No?
I didn't because do you know what my family and friends were incredibly respectful of the rules that I said.
Yeah, I think that one should be pretty common knowledge too, Like if you if you're sick, you don't want to go near a baby, so you think.
That, but like common knowledge is not that common?
Well, this one is a crazy one.
Oh it's crazy.
Explain this one. Please wash your hands before picking up the baby.
Definitely not I'm joking, all.
Right, hold on, hold on, When you guys go to the bathroom, do you wash your hands every time?
Bullshit, you're not in there with me.
Be too quick. Men are too quick, many too quick.
Washing your hands.
You looked in the chap moving on.
Okay, I think this is also very reasonable too, thinking that they're reasonable.
But I got savaged on the internet because I got asked about this and I said, I'll share the screenshots of my message no worries, and people were like, you are controlling, You are weird.
Tell us which one if there was anyone in particular that caused them, like the biggest controversy, I'm.
Going to give you this one really quick. Please don't post any photos of our baby online or share them with others without ac consent.
So we don't share any photos of Harvey online of his face. Like I'll share pictures of us with our kid, but I always put like an emoji or something over his face. I just I don't want my baby online. I'm not a mum content creator. I'm not a family content creator. My husband is not part of like the social media world. I just feel like that's us, that's our that's do I think other people should do it? Not like I love seeing other people's babies. I love it,
no matter, I love it. But like, I'm a finance content creator, and I get and I mean you probably do as parents as well, But like I get a lot of bad feedback because I'm talking about like one of those three sacred topics that you should never talk about, and that's money. And so I just I don't know. It just makes me uncomfortable.
Similar to me when I post my money, I put an emoji over it. Yeah, yeah, I have noticed that it's most suitcase of money.
Like every time you take a selfie in the mirror as you're leaving and you're like, oh, sorry, I had to put an emoji over that wallet.
Victoria, what about this one? No strong sense?
Yeah, you can't wear perfect around a newborn what is that it marks up there like a little that links Africa. That's the only one I allowed. That's the only one I allowed. So babies are really really sensitive, so having perfume on around them is actually really bad for their little endocrime system. And during that period of time when they are a newborn, they're trying to bond via smell to their parents. So please don't get.
In the way of that. The last one hit, which the most controversial of all.
Okay, yes, this is going to be very controversial. If you haven't had an up to date hooping cough vaccination, please don't plan a visit before our babies at least six weeks old.
I mean, explain that one, Victoria.
I'm just so pro vaxed, you know, so hooping cough can kill Newborns's feel like I don't actually want that to happen. And it turns out, yeah, it's wild, but it turns out it's like semi avoidable. Like you could just get vaccinated, and do I need you to get a VATS No, But like the trade off is you can just meet our baby after their s.
You just wait and be patient. I think that's fat.
Yeah, I think boundaries are very important, and I think it's fucking great.
That you have been gets hilarious that I had to listen to those back when I am a little bit unhinged.
Hey, no, I think like you were saying, some people common knowledge is in that common like there's some of those are on like the scent one. I'm like, idea.
See, I had no idea about this either. And I had the privilege of having babies last in our friendship group, so all of my friends had had that, and I just remember along a long the time, you know, a friend would be like, oh my god, such and such as mum came and visited the baby and she was covered in perfume and I was like.
What and she was looking her face.
I was like, yeah, so I was. I was kind of like, oh, I didn't realize that I wouldn't have done that. But also I didn't realize that was actually an issue. So being able to see and learn from their mistakes and set them up so I didn't have have to, you know, turn to my mum and be like, I love your perfume, but can you not leave sea.
I guarantee, while it would have been a lot of people who are online being like, what is this? There would have been even more people's screenshotting those rules to use the.
People messaging and being like, I wish that I had done the same thing. I didn't even think about it or I didn't know, and I'm like, neither did I. I just got to learn from all of my friends. Switches.
Can you sniff the baby?
You can sniff the baby, sniff feet, Matt's walk in the street.
What is that?
Why is it so good? Their feet? Their head the top of it.
I actually held a baby for the first time. Yeah, I've actually picked the baby, have my wife. He must be drunk.
I was so good little drunk newborns.
Victoria. I do want to ask you to finance questions.
I love finds question and there may not.
Be answers to these questions. If there's not, tell me to shut up. Yeah, but I'll try my luck. Question number one, what would you say is the biggest financial mistake that parents make for their kids?
Oh, biggest financial mistake not investing in themselves. So like, I think parents make the mistake of thinking that to teach kids about money, they need to give their kids money. Like money is hard at the moment, we're in the middle of the cost of living crisis. Your kid does not need. They don't need their own little pay packet
every week to manage. They need to see parents who are role modeling good money behaviors, like they need to see parents who are having open, honest conversations about budgets, Like you don't have to sit down with your five year old and be like, so mummy earns sixty five thousand dollars and daddy earns, but like, have you heard.
A compound interest?
Yes, kids are smarter than you give them credit for. They catch on really quickly. But even just small things like not teaching them money during the grocery shop being like, okay, cool, So we have two hundred dollars to spend this grocery shop and that means that we need to look at these little dockets and you know those usually as a
ten dollars a box. What is that about, by the way, And these ones, the off brand ones, you know, they're three, so you could choose, you could have three different snack options or one which one is? I know they're your favorite,
but do you want more for the week? Because once they're out, they're at It's love that have little games and decisions, And I think that the mistake parents make is thinking we need to have a lot of money, We need to pay them pocket money and get them to learn money that way, when in reality it's actually we learn by osmosis and being around people who are good with money. So I think that that would be the biggest mistake. It's not like investing or saving like
you don't that pressure is wild. The idea that you know, I get asked all the time, how are you investing for Harvey? And it's like, why aren't we talking about your emergency fund? And you know, filling your own cup first and being a parent that you know doesn't have to rely on credit. It's hard, but like, can we put ourselves in that position? And they'd be like, wow, you know this unexpected bill came up, Jim, and we were able to pay for it. Isn't that call that
we saved? And then now we weren't in a bit of a pickle. We can still go on the family holiday, we can still do that fund thing on the weekend. It's not going to impact that. Like, I think that is probably a mistake is not using everyday opportunities to teach kids about money when you think you need it. You don't need heaps of money to be good at money.
What is the one thing parents or expecting parents should be doing financially?
Do you think bumping up their emergency funds because you just never know what's going to happen. Life is expensive and you can budget to the end of the earth, but sometimes you need a little bit of wiggle room to order a tin of formula or Uber eats. And yes it is more expensive and it is not the best quote financial decision, but that is going to take so much pressure off your relationship. Wrangling a baby, Wrangling a newborn is hard, getting out of the house even harder.
So I would make sure that I have an emergency fund, make sure it's got, you know, as much as I feel comfortable in it, but also then don't feel bad when you're using it during those periods of time, because to me, an emergency fund is there to help you
with emergencies. And I know that you might go car accident or theft, but an emergency actually might be your mental health and just ordering that Tina formula or the food or even dinner or a pizza for two on Uber eats and paying a ridiculous amount for it so that you can stay on the couch and not have to lift a finger, because that's what's going to make your entire week better. So I think that emergency funds
and savings are It's not private school education. It's not you know, all these fancy things kids, as you guys would probably know, they need not that much. Have you got somewhere safe for them to sleep? Have you got a nappy for them to wear? And have you got food for them? Like that's basic of what we need. Anything else is a luxury. So how do we kind of go back to like we don't need a mama roos wing. I promise you don't need you don't need that.
You don't need the fancy carriers, you don't. They're nice to have.
But what's the rocking?
Oh yeah, yeah yeah, the mamrou just gets the hand me down, the hand me down there. Our baby beyond car carry went through like four different steps of parents.
Yeah, good because.
They use it to such a short period of time. But I think seeing those things as luxuries is important as well.
I love that. I do have one last question before you go, Victoria, what will be the one thing that you want Harvey to remember about the house that he grew up in.
That it was full of love, Like I don't. I don't care about what it looks like or what it's done. I want him to know that, Like I want him to grow up and like you know when you talk about your family, like, oh my god, everyone was welcome. I want him to always be like, oh, all my friends, they would always come over, like. I want him to know that everyone is welcome and that he's never not safe there. I think that for me is gold standard.
I love it. Not the advanced standard, just gold standards every child.
But yeah, every child deserves to feel safe and wanted and loved, and I think that that and sometimes be hard to achieve in a home, especially if it's busy or like pic Dick. I just want him to look back and be like, oh, we had so much fun, we had so much love, Like that would be that would.
Be very cool. Good answer, weis sure, my mum. Sometimes Victoria, mummy.
That would get weird, really weird.
Yeah you're a bit old.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
Yes, thank you for jumping on. And I could just.
Suck all the financial wisdom out of your brain.
It's free for the taking.
Thanks so much. One of the biggest lessons I learned from our chat with Victoria Matthew, Yeah.
What would that be?
My children do not deserve a cent.
As if you needed any convincing. A huge thanks to Victoria for sharing her experience with pregnancy loss. It's a very difficult and vulnerable chat. Wonderful women go through it, and I think it's so important that more people talk about the topic.
Absolutely, matt And if you've enjoyed this episode, make sure you credit and follow Two Doting Dads wherever you get your podcasts or on social media of course Two Dollion Dads on Instagram. Join the Facebook page, the join.
The chat and also a little reminders of the calendars are still available at the moment. A reminded that all proceeds one goes to Rise Up, an amazing charity that works with victims of domestic violence. So if you haven't bought one yet, go ahead and buy them because they will sell out.
The link is in the show notes, budgetmag dot com dot au Bye here.
Two Doting Dads podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the connections to land, see and community.
We pay our respects to their elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestraight Islander peoples today. This episode was recorded on Gadagal Land.