It's in the news today, but it was actually on TV Reload the podcast last week airline.
Welcome back to TV Reload.
My name's Benjamin Norris, and on this podcast I go behind the scenes with the biggest players in television. Each episode you will get a front row seat with content makers like executive producers, writers, editors, and casting agents, plus the talent that we see on our screens. TV Reload reloads the shows that you were currently watching and gives you a better insight into our television industry and our
streaming services today. On the podcast, I have Thomas Wilson White, who was one of the writers on the latest incarnation of Heartbreak High, which has.
Been a huge hit for Netflix.
Tom is actually a family friend of mine and has always been an incredibly smart intelligence storyteller. The fact that he's been able to demonstrate his talents and be a part of a hit like Heartbreak High is a step in the right direction for young writers in this country. Heartbreak High was a huge part of my early introduction into TV and also my passion for television. The series broke round in the nineties, and what a joy it has been to see it brought.
Back for a brand new generation.
The characters in this show are complicated, funny, and reflective of real teenagers in Australian schools. If you haven't watched the series, I'm super duper jealous because I would love to go back and watch it all over again for the first time. We will talk about the process in the writer's room, where Tom's inspiration comes from, why telling stories of queer people is so important, and we will get an update on series two. However, let's get started
with today's guest. I'd like to welcome Thomas Wilson White, the writer of episode five and story collaborator of Heartbreak High, to TV Relock.
This is a really big opportunity for me and I really want to smash it. I think Heartbreak how in It's DNA and like at its soul, is a show about rebellion, love and passion. It's absolutely been the foundation of my rioting voice.
This whole series is about this group of teens and how they connect each other.
When you hear the words heartbreak, hi, it has a mythology. I'm really proud of this show for doing is kind of pushing the ideas and notions of what it is to be a teenager. I think the answer actually lay in the australianness of it.
Hi, don't read.
You're really advocating for your community essentially.
Hi Tom, great to have you on the podcast.
Thank you for having me.
I'm very excited to have you on the show because we're talking about Heartbreak High, which I knew through your sister that you were writing, and so I was like, Wow, that's so amazing. But then to come and watch it, to see it come to fruition and it to be a hit, it is a proud, proud friend moment.
It's actually insane. Like I was saying the other day, you've got you've got a show that gets released and it could be a flop or it could be good. But then this is like beyond both of those things, where there's actually no there's no real way to prepare for a hit that catches on this quickly, particularly with the demographic it's aimed at. They go rabbit like. It's got a fan base that kind of formed within a week of its release. So it's been it's been really cool and also kind of like crazy.
Isn't it weird that the rest of the world now is as protective and passionate about these characters as you must have been creating them. It's like an episode of Buffy where you just saw it a whole lot of Buffies out there and now got this Heartbreak High superpower.
Yeah yeah, instead of vampires, they're all like queer, which is even better. I guess that's Buffy. Actually, yeah, it definitely felt It definitely felt like to break the season and to build and create the characters from literally nothing, like we created them from our lived experience and we went if we like we all got hired on Heartbreak High, and it was kind of like, what does this look like? What is a reboot of the show going to look like?
And kind of it was like, well, I want to see this sort of story and I've never seen it on Australian TV and I would really passionately advocate for, you know, the characters that I kind of shaped or pitched, and then to see that and you're running off a hunch that like people want to see it as well, and it's not just you, like not having had therapy, and so it's actually like maybe other people want to watch this, and so then it kind of goes out into the world and you know, to see the tiktoks
and the tweets and all of the posts about you know, particularly the queer characters, has been really validating and pretty amazing.
I think you also helped all of your friends and family because we've all become a little bit cooler because we can say that we know someone who was a creator.
And it was funny.
I was saying to someone in the industry the other day, I was like, oh, I know somebody who worked on it. They were like, oh, which actor? And I was like, no, I know one of the writers that were like what. They were like, oh my god. And isn't it weird that the creative team behind a show like this could be just has celebrated these days as the people as the actors, you know, because everyone knows how bold the choices have been. Everyone knows how much this must have been scrutinized over.
Yeah, And I mean it was really risky as well, Like I think the Netflix were kind of like from the day one, it was like, let's take a big swing and see if we land it. And you know, it was my first TV it was my first professional TV gig. You know, I'd written my own things and I'd made a film and films, et cetera. But I was essentially like completely green and a really big risk
for them to take. Turning around one day and saying, hey, we want you to write episode five and I was like, fuck, yeah, I can't swear, can I?
I was like, I was like, hell, yeah, this is mine my heart Radio Australia.
Thank you for letting us swear?
Yes, thank you. Yeah, I kind of I kind of threw myself at it. And you know, they yeah, they I think power to Netflix. They really had nothing to lose. They were like, we've just opened in Australia. Let's go ham, let's see you know, let's create something we can be proud of as Aussies for the global stage. And this stuff. I mean, it didn't exist, like it didn't exist a
decade ago, like that very conversation. Like when I was starting out, I would never have believed that I would be able to stay in Australia and make this show and make the work I wanted to make. It was not an option like we going through film school like a decade ago. It was like you leave, you have to leave, you know.
I've always thought that there was something extraordinarily special about your storytelling, even from a young age. Like I think, you know, I might have met you when you were seventeen or eighteen, but you were hanging out with your sister's friends and you could hold the consciousness of everyone that was quite a lot older than you, And I think that's like, that must be just a talent that's a part of you, which you've then been able to sort of cultivate.
I guess definitely being the youngest sibling and being obsessed with your other sibling and like being like always listening and being like I want to be like them, and sort of like emulating my siblings to the point where if I think about it for too long, I'm like, who am I really like? I'm just like just a
series of things I've stolen off my relatives. But honestly, it definitely has helped my screenwriting for sure, to be to be a part of such a big family and a kind of funny, loud, super gay family like it kind of It's absolutely been the foundation of my writing voice.
You know, where do you think your passion for TV, film and storytelling came from?
Do you think it was that.
I mean, I've sat in the backyard of your older sister Perry's backyard and heard you all as a family talking and all of you are creative, and I'm just like it was like a writer's room actually.
You know, yes, yeah.
There was never a time where we were having a conversation about something that you know, wasn't pop culture mixed with something that was happening in the news, you know. So what do you think for TV?
Storytelling came from I think we all got it from our grandma. She like she ran she opened this regional theater in Nara on the south coast of New South Wales called the Narrow Players in nineteen fifty one. So like we kind of grew up in the theater and I think I maybe unconsciously kind of had an ear for dialogue because I was always in the theater and
listening to plays and stuff. And then I think we all became it's actually that and like Gilmore Girls, if I'm really honest, like we were obsessed with Gilmore Girls as a family, and you can absolutely hear that in my writing style, Like I think that kind of just bred us as this sort of we're all a bit loud and not even loud that way We're just a bit, you know, we just say stuff, we speak up. We kind of were very opinionated, and that's in all of
my work. But I think, particularly with TV and comedy, I don't because I really started in drama, so I was like drama, drama, drama, and then I moved into comedy in the last few years and didn't expect to kind of have it be so come so naturally to me, but it just does. Like, you know, I really love writing comedy, you know, and that you know, everything I write is about my siblings in one way or another, and Heartbreak Eye is kind of just like my siblings,
but they're all school kids, you know. You can kind of see parts of all of them in there.
Is there something that you stand for when it comes to creating content? You know?
Is there a signature Tom Wilson.
White theme that you skirt around or people would say, what's your work?
Absolutely? Like I think that I ran away and wrote my did my master's degree on sort of like queer storytelling and hopefully the future of it and ways to kind of challenge, you know, the broader audience's idea of what a queer story looks and feels like. And so I think it has been a real passion of mine to bake queenness into the stories in a way that we're not used to, where it is kind of almost commonplace, and it's no longer about kind of coming out or
being a lesbian who dies tragically. It's you know, it's actually more about celebrating and honoring queerness and the way that it changes our points of view, but also just the universality of our experiences as humans, you know, and
hopefully moving it forward into a way. And that's kind of I think that's kind of the signature I was able to put on Heartbreak Eye from in the writer's room was you know, I really wanted queer characters who broke out of the sort of tropes that we've been given, you know, historically, particularly in TV as well, Like there's always like the gay best friend. We all know that stereotype, but how do we how do we take you know,
that and kind of subvert it. And I think that's kind of why the Darren and Cash storyline was sprung from that. It is like Darren is almost that and Cash is the antithesis of that, and what challenges every single thing about themselves that they know. That's kind of where it came from and why I'm so excited to tell stories like that in Australia because I still think, you know, we are kind of a little bit behind in our stories some way we craft them.
What was your relationship like with Heartbreak? High?
Because the original series was groundbreaking for its time. I remember being in high school when it was on television. Everyone would run home and watch it. I grew up in Doncaster and Templestow where it was a very Italian Greek suburb. So I just remember at school they wouldn't have said it this many words because they were school kids, right, but they were like, oh, we're on television, you know, because we hadn't seen that much cultural diversity in a
series before. But so it had the landscape, it had the foundation I think for us to be bolder with that, you know, with that concept. But yeah, what was your relationship with Heartbreak? That's my original question.
No, I mean, it's really interesting though, everything you say, because it is I think we pulled. We looked at the original and we were like, so what was it doing in its era? And it was it was groundbreaking and it was it was diverse, in a way that nineties Australia was diverse and for its time was really covering a lot of things, a lot of subject matter that Australian TV just wasn't covering. So in updating it, you go, okay, well, what's the twenty twenty two version
of those themes? You know? And it's you know, there's it's like body autonomy and gender and sexuality and race and all of these big things where we're like, so that's what we're going to that's what we're going to tackle. But my connection to it was through Perry, through my big sister, so knowing I knew of it, but I totally missed it. Like I think I was way too young to have watched it, But I think that it's always had when you hear the words heartbreak Kyi, it
has a mythology to it. It's kind of part of our culture. So when they when I got the call being like, hey, do you want an interview for this show or like they want you to interview for the show Heartbreak High, I was like, oh my god, that's going to be a hit. Like I remember as soon as I heard the words, I was like a rebit of that right now, in this day and age is
going to be if it's done right. I was like, that is going to go off because we don't have we don't have an equivalent in Australia right now, a show that is really tackling what it is to be a young adult right now in Australia. So yeah, that was my connection. I've never actually watched any of it, but when I did watch all of it before my interview, I went on this deep dive and watched, you know, twenty five episodes. I was like, okay, cool, you know, I get it.
I spoke to Perry, your sister for people listening to this, and we're talking about something to do with work. I think she sent me a book and I said thank you, and she told me or work on the show. And then I went back and watched. I think I watched season one and season two and then the last season of it, just because I wanted to refresh.
I was like, I just want to refresh and I want to remember.
It and it was still groundbreaking, and I thought to myself, why do you you know? And I thought, for you, a good question is why do you think we didn't see more of this or why do you think it's taken so long to continue what Heartbreak High was doing almost two decades ago.
It's an interesting question. Like I think I also think young adult can be you know, the big wigs can kind of you know, be quite patronizing to young adult content and be like yeah, whatever, But actually, like young adult is like culture defining, like as a genre. You know, I think back to you know, Gossip Girl, the OC, like the big ones that were like smack bang in my high school journey, and they really defined who I was and how I kind of identified and found myself.
But it can also kind of be like, yeah, but that's just like, you know, that's just what the kids are watching. So I think I often feel like ya as a genre is where a lot of really exciting stuff is actually happening, and there's some really exciting dialogues about who we are as people and growing up and big political topical stuff. But maybe it's just not seen that way. But I brought the broader audience perhaps, But
it is changing. I think. You know, then you activate teenagers with social media, and the thing that changes is that now it's so much easier to see the impact these shows have because you know, Euphoria is if there's a season of Euphoria out, it's literally everywhere you can't escape it. And the cult status of shows like that in the fan bases, you know, it's actually kind of terrifying how many people watch that stuff.
That show was in that show, you would have had to watch some of that before making this, and you would be like, oh, I'm so inspired by this, but you don't want to mimic that, Like do you know what I mean? Like you could easily try and remake that in a way where that's not that it's got an Australian flavor to it.
And also, what I thought.
Was more interesting is I can't remember a time where the actors felt like they were actually playing their age. You know, for so long we were watching the scott Wolfs of the world playing Party of five or even back to nine to two to zero. But then even Gossip Girl, a lot of these shows have these actors that are too old to be playing these roles or selling it well enough. And this show really feels like it's snapshot of real people of the same age.
Yeah, I agree. I think the firstly, the casting is like sublime, and you know, as they were casting these roles. I remember being like, well, this is so exciting, Like it really is the cast of our dreams that we really wanted, real people, and they're so talented and really wonderful.
Yeah.
I definitely feel like we all watched Euphoria, and we were watching you know, sex Education and all of like the big high school shows that are out right now, and then going where's a space that exists beyond all of those shows that we can occupy? And I think I think the answer actually lay in the australianness of it, like it, you know, we have a really really specific sense of humor and sensibility here that has often been kind of cringey, you know, like on TV. And we
were like, how do we embrace it? Because we are very funny and very self effacing, and you know, we kind of do just take the Pierce a lot. But we're also you know, uniquely positioned over here in all these other weird ways that I think come out in
the show. You know that, And that's kind of what I think people are kind of picking up is that it's so weirdly Australian, like we are kind of very left of center over here, so I think that was like the nice I think that's the nice place that the show's fine found is kind of a space beyond euphoria and beyond sex ed and like somewhere else that I think they all speak to each other. For sure.
There is a danger of being too woke or turning off your audience by ticking too many boxes, which we saw with and Just Like That, which was the reboot of Sex and the City.
What do you think about that?
You know, what do you think the failure in and Just Like That had with people turning off because it was too woe where you all succeeded.
I have so many feelings about this topic because I felt very passionate about this in the room when we were writing the show, and I was also the queer consultant on the show, so I read all the scripts with the proviso that I would go through and read any time a queer character spoke or you know, and offer suggestions and kind of you know, basically just kind of use my own internal compass to go no, I would never say that and or like, you know, and
it didn't happen that much. The writers are fantastic, They're all incredible, but We were really conscious going through this series, like people are going to expect this to be so woke that it's unwatchable. You know, people are going to expect every character to open their mouth and be like, well, I identify as blah blah blah and blah. So actually you're canceled, like that is what everyone's wanting, expecting Hartbrekhi
to be. So we were kind of like, let's make them flawed, and let's make them let's embrace their identities and their differences, but let's not sent a story around it, and let's go for you know, universality and the storytellings and the themes. And I think it was actually just about looking at it and going, we're not going to pat ourselves on the back because we have this incredibly diverse cast and this you know cast of people that
are all intersectional in their identities. We're not going to signpost it so that you know that we know and that you know we've all read like fifty million articles about this, where like we're just going to dig into the guts of these characters and put up something it feels real, and I think, you know, with something like and just like that, it felt like they needed they had this urge to tell you that they know about the world or something to be like, this is a
non binary queer person who every joke is going to be about their identity, every line they say is going to be about their identity. Where it's like, when's the last time you've said that in real life? When's the last time that that sentence has come out of your mouth? Because often it's just kind of like you wake up and you're like, oh my god, I need to take a shit. It's not like, oh my god, I'm a queer, you know, blah blah blah blah blah.
Why I'm going to go and have myself the glitter shit?
You know. Yeah, you know, not everything.
Has to be queerized or whatever it is, but you know, and that's when you're turning off your audience, I think, is when you stop being authentic. And if you're trying to be authentic, you have to talk from a place
of knowing. And I don't know this for a fact, but I wonder whether or not they had someone like you in the writer's room for and just like that, you know, and I remember reading somewhere that it might have been hard to bring people in because they weren't sort of they could trust them with the stories and you know that they had their people, but to me, it didn't seem like it came from a place of authenticity.
And for me, I still loved that show while everyone fucking hated it, but it certainly was absolutely rubbish online. While you guys were.
Applauded, I mean, I don't know who the writing team was either, And in all honesty, though the parts that I have seen of it, I was like, I just wish they weren't centering because essentially what they're saying is if your queer or non binary or whatever, that is the most interesting thing about you, and that is the thing we're going to focus on. And that's really frustrating because then the sis gendered straight as you know, mostly
white people and their storylines. They get all of this drama, you know, they get all of the stories, but the sort of marginalized people, it's just reinforced the only interesting thing about you is your marginalization, and not like just give them a big I don't know, divorce storyline or some shit. I don't know, but you know what I mean, I think this is.
A really good audition, by the way, for your writing on and just like that the second series, which they're already going, I need to fly over there. And you know, you have to take every single one of us that was in New York ten years ago, because we were all dreaming of living there and now we're in a moving entourage where we just basically live all of the money and says.
You can just be by just by living, interviewer, we can just past publicity for me. No, I'm kidding, Well, I'll take it.
I'll take a cut of the check if you get that phone call after miraculously doing TV reload here in Australia. You know, if someone wrote to me after I did an interview about Master Chef and they were from the New Yorker and they got some soundbites from me about that show Masterschef, from what I thought about its success, considering that there hadn't ever been a successful cooking show
like that in America. They were flabbergasted by the talent of the chefs and the talent of the contestants, and the fact that they would all be willing to be on a show like that. They were like, it would never happen in America anyway, but it was very interesting to me and that someone from The New Yorker wrote to me.
And when that email turned up success.
I just went back to New York. I got back two weeks ago. It's the first time I've been back since we were all there, and it was so depressing to be there alone.
I have a confession to make, and that is when I feel sad. I want that video of all of us miming too.
Where young, I know, makes me cry. I can't watch it. Ah, But it's also we were young, and that's why I'm like, I can't look at this.
I am thirty killers.
I reckon more than the waight I was in that video and I remember thinking I looked fat in that video and what a fucking mistake. Then I'm like, no, you will be bigger than this. This is to celebrate it anyway, No one cares about this. I have to ask about the process of creating these characters and how
did the story come together. You kind of teased us before by saying that you know, you started with a blank canvas in a way, or I might be putting words into your mouth, but how do you even start something like this?
And how did you get it from there to here?
So I came onto the show and there had already
been some initial development. So I came into the room and there was a couple There was probably like twenty maybe characters just floating around and they weren't really named yet, but it was more like they were vessels for certain stories, I guess, so like people with people in the room are kind of saying, you know, oh, it would be great if there was a character that could have a journey like this, And you know, I read this article and you know they were talking about this, so like
why don't we have a character that can go through that experience or whatever. So it's very much like responding to the day and age we were in. And this is twenty twenty, so it was the end of twenty twenty beginning of twenty twenty one, so it was we were also kind of thinking ahead, like what's going to be of interest to an audience in twenty twenty two. So I kind of I came in and how to kind of roll the decks of ideas because I was like, this is a really big opportunity for me and I
really want to, you know, smash it. So I came in and I was like, look, I really want to explore asexuality and men. I think it's something that's never touched on. I really want to explore promiscuity in gay culture. And you know, those two things are just like like the opposites of each other. So how to like, let's have a romance and let's tell a love story where those two people have to kind of figure out how to be together even though they're from opposite and ends
of the sexual spectrum. And that was a really exciting place to start, and very much I was like, I would love to explore intimacy in a queer relationship because it's so often not depicted that way in media, and we're often given like quite you know, aggressive bombs of you know, sex or whatever, or illustrations of that and nightclubs and all of these things that are absolutely part of quick culture. But at the same time, I was like,
but I don't want it to go near that. I would love it to be them falling in love in this quite romantic, sort of almost Disney way. So that's kind of where Cash and Darren sort of sprang from. And then you know, there was these incredible writers in the room who were pouring themselves into their characters. And Hannah Carol Chapman, the creator, she always says, like, the characters you see on screen are the writers who were
in the room. Like we all had characters. We would come to work every day and fight for them and pitch ideas for them, and you know, and it's just so nice to see that the result of that is
a really well loved, well received show. You know, we were all kind of validated that in that journey because you really are It can fit like life and death in that room, like you know, you're really advocating for your community essentially, and that's scary as well, because it's like what if this comes out and the queer community are like, no thanks, we hate it, you know, and then you're like little So you know, there's it was very high stakes at times because you wanted it to be.
It meant so much to you.
What about creating characters and spending time with a character. Was there a particular character that you enjoyed writing for more than anyone else.
I mean, I think Cash is one of my favorites. I love the character. I love writing for Darren and Sasha because you know, they kind of Darren has some great one line's and Sasha if you just kind of love to hate her a little bit and that's kind of why I love writing for her. And she has a couple of lines in my episode that are like
my favorite lines I've ever written. One of them is I read the Ethical Slot when I was six years old, and I'm like, yes, like I can die happy that I somehow jammed a line like that into a show
for Netflix. But I also love I love writing Harper because she's so she's so flammable, Like she's a great character to write because she goes, she burns everything to the ground instead of instead of processing anything, she just goes, you know what, I'm gonna just do something, you know, And that's really that's really exciting to write, you know.
Will we get to see more Heartbreak High? Do you know where this show is going at the moment where it is in the world, and will you be working on Well?
Look, but it's there. I think they're waiting to see. Yeah, I mean we're currently in limbo and that's the we're just waiting to see the get the green light from Netflix. I imagine in terms of like about the future of it, But I'm I mean, I keep saying to everybody, it would be crazy to me if there isn't another season. And there's also been fantastic shows that have had the plug called, so you just don't know.
I was talking to someone in television today and I was like, I'm talking.
To one of the writers and I was like, what do you know about it?
Do you know how far along the decision is at Netflix, because it'd be great to talk about it with Tom And he was like, I haven't heard anything, but he was like, there's no way known those actors won't come back, those writers won't come back, and that Netflix won't pick it up again because there hasn't been something so successful that's made, that's content being made in Australia for the
streaming platforms like this. You know, this has been a long time in the making for a lot of people in Australia wanting to tell our story and for audiences to have adopted it like this. It's like you finally someone is listening and that television is aspirational and we should be able to see ourselves on screen. We should be able to feel okay about who we are because we're like, Oh, this person's real.
You know I'm going back.
You've got any ideas as to what you would want to do with any of the characters moving forward?
Oh my god, one hundreds and thousand. I have so many ideas that I'm bursting at the seams. But I really want to give What do I want? Who's my favorite? I really want Missy to have more screen time. Missy is Sasha's best friend. I love her. I think she's
the actress Sherry Lee. She's incredible. So I very much am like, you know, if there is a season two, I'm like scheming of ways to give Missy like a lead story of some sort, because and I know online people are like they're chomping at the bit for more Missy. And I don't know if something fun for Harper would be cool, Like she's been through a lot in season one and she's often like everyone else gets to have fun,
and half is like getting traumatized. So I would love to give Harper like a season two story that is an up and gives her some respite from what she's been through.
My thing is well not survive another episode like the finale of Heartbreak High, like the first half of that finale, I was like gobbledoc and I ate off all my fingernails. And something I ask everybody who joins the podcast is what's something from behind the scenes, something that we didn't see, something that we won't see, kind of an entertaining behind the scenes story from your time making Heartbreak.
I've actually stayed up at night thinking about this question since you told me to prepare for it, because I was like, I'm trying to find like a funny behind the scenes moment. I think, yeah, I couldn't land on one. I do have one in terms of the behind the scenes that kind of trivia that I found personally really
incredible and moving. Was we cast the show and then went into production and because and obviously spoiler alert if you haven't watched it, stop listening, but essentially like Harper shaves her head in the last episode of the show, but it's actually the first chronological event in the series, and it was so so Asher, the actress, who's absolutely divine, got told the first day of shooting Heartbreak high You're gonna shave your head in a mirror and have this huge,
cathartic emotional experience on camera. She's never acted as the character before. It's the first time she's on set as Harper, and to watch that back after, to watch the whole season and watch that scene and how incredible she kind of strikes that chord and the performance she gives to also be like how confronting to shave your head for the first time in your life in front of a film crew, to not know, like you know, generally the shape of Harper's ark in the season, and how it's
going to feel as an actor. I just thought it was absolutely amazing that she pulled that off, and I don't think it's something anyone would realize that, like for her to that, she had to shoot that scene first. So I just wanted to give a shout out to her because I think she's amazing.
That is a brilliant That's a brilliant one.
You're like, I don't know if I can end on one, and it's phenomenon.
I don't want to sell you short. Actually you are.
You have a gift of understand In my mind, this might not be true to you, but it's true to me.
You have a gift of under selling it.
You know. Yeah, I guess, okay, I guess I'll be a writer one day, you know, and you're just like, fuck an oath, Tom, you know.
Yeah, right, I think, to be honest, everyone was like, oh, I roll Tom's writing some high school show. And then I think slowly everyone was like, yeah, there's this massive billboard for it outside my house, and I was like, yeah, guys, kind of like a big deal. And then they all watched it and they were like, okay, sick, it's only taken me fourteen years to get here.
Then who cares? Like, nothing's you know, I'm going to sound like Oprah here, but nothing happens in a straight line in this universe.
We go back, we.
Go forward, and people are only as lucky to have kicked a tire and to have done something so per found and so provocative and so well executed as something like Heartbreak High. And yeah, I'm just really I'm just.
Really proud of you.
And I didn't want to say that in this podcast because I think it sounds really condescending, But people don't realize that I'm a lot older than you, so I'm allowed to say this because you're like a little brother. I am so grateful for your time and for being so generous and unpacking heartbreak high with me and talking honestly and from the heart.
So thank you so much for your here.
Let's do a follow up when we get a seven two please.
One hundred percent, and let's just not even do a follow up. I'll just get you to talk to me every now and again.
Because I'm like, it's
Been way too long