WHY SCRIPTED DRAMA IN AUSTRALIA IS SO IMPORTANT

Welcome back to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris, and on this podcast I'll be going behind the scenes with the biggest players in television. I just want to drop this note and say I am thrilled with the response to this podcast, as it's proof that there's just as many TV obsessed people as myself. However, if you have stumbled across this podcast, do me a favor and please press subscribe. I have so many exciting guests coming up and I'm sure you won't want to miss the juicy

I love when the character just behaves so badly. Come in here and find me dead.

Right Well, in the meantime, where's your medication?

And it makes me think about how you want your last days to be and to and how to live with pain.

But the Heart is a drama about this family.

It should feel sort of itchy and a bit uncomfortable. It is monstrous when something you've cared about reveals itself to be less. I started writing it a really long time ago. It was almost the first thing I ever wrote. Or do you think I'm acting out because Dad's in jail and your predenta he never existed. Some projects should, I think, just be written by one person.

How are you, Sammy? You well?

I'm really well?

How are you really well? Your understanding of human emotion is what I think is your best currency with audiences, and it comes across in all of your work. What helps you so effortlessly tap into that earnest human emotion?

Oh gosh, that's a really good question. I think I'd never wanted to be an.

Actor, but I used to sit at your computer and you get to live in other people's worlds.

And that's the bit about writing. I'm writing something at the moment, and I love.

When the character just behaves so badly and you see, you know, this incredible neediness in someone, or you know, hyper sensitivity or moments like that, which is sort of you feel all the time.

You know, then you can just you know, write them large for a character.

And I come from none of them are storytellers, but I've got lots of members of the family who are really interested to a gossipers love who love like gossiping about.

Like you know that this happened to this person, What do you think that really meant to them? And you know that's how they sort of go through life.

That's my favorite thing is flawed people. You know, I'm not interested in being friends with people are too perfect. Like I love the truth, I think, and I love dissecting that.

Yeah.

I mean, I've got a best friend I speak to most days, and we like each other because we show each other the absolute worst parts of ourselves and find them funny. And I think that that's you know, that's what you put on the screen.

Do you remember watching Love My Way for the first time and all those characters were so flawed And I remember we finished the first episode and I said to my partner, I was like, none of these people are very good, are they? And that was the best thing about it because we'd never seen storytelling like that before. You know, we always had to have the protagonist that was doing good, you know, So I think it's more interesting these days to sort of inspect the darker signs of people and.

Seeing Asha Ketty have a meltdown at Ikea. You know, I'll never forget it. Just wanting more storage systems. You know, who hasn't been there.

Maybe we ought to consider the boshnark, consider the boshnark. Houten Dorf good and fun.

I don't really care.

Let's just get the hell out of here.

Hello, I'm hungover. I have a four week old baby.

You have a four week old?

What am I? I spermed on.

I'm so bloody tired, and I know people are dying in fucking Palestine.

Or whatever, but you know, I need story systems. Charlie, I'm going off on a tangent. But I was walking the dog the other day and I was impersonating Asha Ketty and the neighbor was watching me and thinking what the hell is wrong and laughing. I'm like, oh, I'm quoting a TV series which no one would probably from my day ago as well, There's nothing wrong with me.

Nope.

It was nice having Brendan on the end, actually, because he you know, he wrote so much of Love my Way. I think he's a really wonderful, Right, I just sort of gets into that what it means to be a troubled man in a way that I can't.

It's terrific, just unbelievable. Like one of my favorites, one of my favorites for sure. You know, I love your production company name, which is picking Scabs, because it immediately talks to me about the work that you're doing. How does that name align with the themes in the end.

Well, I mean there's something kind of fun about picking a scab that it's you know that they're itchy and you sort of you pick them and then maybe they'll bleed and that's sort of problematic, but you're sort of trying to get to what's underneath there.

And that's how I felt about the end.

It should feel sort of itchy and a bit uncomfortable, and it's something that that it's you know, it's a conversation. It's just a dying to a conversation that we a lot of people want to have, a lot of people want to avoid, but particularly as you get older, it's something that becomes very present in mind. And so with the picking scabs sort of holistically across all our projects, we just want to tell the truth about things that are happening in our country and and find a way

The brochure says that this is much more of a country company retirement village.

You need more care if you can give.

You a lovely family.

Those children are not being parented.

Is a bully? Do you think I'm left to you out because dad's in jail?

Your predenda?

He never existed?

So how are you questioning my faith in Western medicine?

Sounds fun?

How's your known?

I don't know what you want.

I want to be dead because I can't stand to be alive knowing that I wasted all of it. It's just green. You don't want to die. She is dying.

But if this year we would open up your sister dying debate.

Your boyfriend's here and I have a boyfriend so casual sex.

I will look after you.

But Mum, I moved to the other side of the world because I don't want that anywhere near my kids. We helped him.

Matters can't kill.

What if it's my purpose?

I never had one all my life. The reward for a good life. It's a good line. I think the end is quite dark, but it's also quite funny as well, and I think that's sometimes the best blend. Is it hard to tackle those sorts of issues? And what was the original pitch? Because it is something a little out of the box, So I can't I mean, not the whole pitch, because I'm assuming that was a bigger meeting. But what was the original pitch idea when you were talking about this show?

Well, I started writing it a really long time ago.

It was almost the first thing I ever wrote as at five minute short film at UNI, and I'd been really inspired by a grandmother whose husband died by putting a plastic bag over his head. And my grandmother moved to the Gold Coast and arrived very depressed, and within six months had this sort of whole new lease on life. Had made a new best friend called Pamela who lived next door, and she'd been depressed, but then you know, within six months she was wearing sexy red dresses and

Of go out dancing, it's it's a good way to go.

It made me kind of a little bit less scared about getting older and dying to see how much fun she was still having.

So that was the original inspiration.

And you know, the themes of death, they sort of heavily featured and kind of dissected throughout the show. Why did you choose that particular theme, Like what about that theme was resonating or what drew you to sort of want to unpack that.

I probably think about death too much. My dad was always sick growing up.

He's quite well now, but he was quite ill for a long time, and so you always feel like that immortality was a part of our household, that you know, you could go to school and he might die. So then I think it does the interesting things to you. It sort of makes you never really want to have a fight with someone, and it makes you think about how you want your last days to be and to and how to live with pain, I think as well. And so that was, you know, that was certainly part

Not a ten and you know, so I think it was just baked in.

You know, it's quite interesting to watch as well. With Morgan Davies. Was he's obviously he struggled to come out as a trans person at the age of thirteen. That's a really interesting subject matter to unpack for a lot of people these days, Like sometimes you get into the pronouns and they're there and there, and it all can be quite confusing writing their carry. Did you evolve that character on set because you could learn and then utilize that for the character or was that all set?

It wasn't all set, And it was interesting.

Morgan was in the process of coming out when he came up to Queensland for rehearsals, so he'd gone back and forth through pressure publicly, and so he definitely had gave us.

A lot of feedback on the scripts.

We also had a really wonderful consultant, Andrew Guy, who's a terrific actor documentary filmmaker, who read the script from the beginning and had a lived experience which is similar to Oberon's.

And so we had that consultation and.

Then with Morgan, I think he felt at the time that Oberon was a couple of years behind where he was.

He wasn't. Oberon is a bit of a he can be a bit of a winger.

He's a bit sort of wowaswy and Oberon Morgan has as you know, a bit of a different attitude.

And he's so incredibly well read.

And I think that all of the young actors on our show, you know about the politics of the trans experience, and so that could play on his mind.

But then he'd also be able to, you know, shut it out.

And it's not a representation of every young trans man. It's just Oberon's journey.

Obron told me about the cross sex hormones.

They call it tea. Well, you'll grow here and your voice will drop. I cannot wait for the Adam's apple.

It's all pretty basic and it starts getting hectic when you talk about feller pasty.

It's start. It's a penis bum take a bit of your arm, your thigh, and they make one. They do.

Let's talk about a new subject. I thought it was so powerful to watch because there's so much in the media and there's so much confusion. Sometimes people get bogged down in the language or saying the right thing and doing the right thing, and sometimes we just need to see lived experience and this show is so real that it's like watching a lived experience, and I think it

I mean, I didn't think too much about that because we definitely didn't want to be didactic in it, and you know, and try to educate because that feels like recue for avoiding drama. I think what was so interesting to me was was that, you know, Oberon's trans experience is an element of his character, but it's not his

Through a lot, but he's a beautiful soul.

And the feedback we've gotten from I haven't heard much actually from the trans community, but from from families of you know, and then from the from older Australians who are watching it. They all they all love they all love Morgan and they love Oberon.

So I mean that feels like John done.

I think he deserves it after watching the show, you know, I'd love to see him going that on that journey and seat of be there in series two. Like that, That's how I feel. You feel like, you know, these people are like Oberon deserves it.

Beta.

Yeah, he's at university, he's having the time of his life.

Yeah, apart from COVID.

What was the choice for having that universe for in the end in the Gold Coast?

Well, just you know John Edwards, the producer.

Yeah, he said that no Australian show will ever work if it's set on the Gold Coast. And I'm like, no, I think that is incorrect, and that there is a way to show the Gold Coast. He just had, you know, he's got it, He's got theories. So that was his theory.

Yeah.

So and also you know it looks really different. It's sort of it's almost expensive as Sydney, So it felt like sort of the right class if that makes sense for the retirement village, it's a place to come and start again. But also just because I know it, and so when you write something that you know really well, you just know, you just know how everything feels. And I've been in Sydney for ten years.

But I probably don't feel as much of the authority on it.

I just thought that it's worked so well for that universe for some reason, it to lend in, It leaned into the themes really well, like it just seemed like

I mean, it's interesting, there's a lot of loyalty to it.

It's still you know, it's still rates comparatively well to American drama, you know, when things are on primetime commercial networks. But then know you also hear people going, oh, why can't we make any good Australian shows?

And I think that's we don't see all the We don't see all the.

Bad American shows, all the bad English shows, you know, so we judge outs quite harshly.

Sort of practical.

Problems limitations are you know, it's always budget and so we just we often don't have enough days to film what we want to film. So I think that you know, we definitely have incredible actors in this country. We've got really terrific writers and directors and producers and all the crew.

But it's probably it's just sort of.

Time we don't often have, you know, the luxury of what they get overseas.

Why do you think that there aren't more people like myself wanting more scripted drama? I mean, if you look at the ratings of things like merrit at first sight, that's you know, that is unscripted drama, and you know people are turning into that in droves. You know, why aren't more people interested? Do you think in these types of shows?

I don't know.

I think it's a really it's a really good question.

I think that was a little period where we tried to be a bit too safe and the rest of the world is becoming very specific and authored, and for a little while in Australia we became generalists, trying to appeal to a whole lot of people at once, and that's not really the sort of television I want to watch it, you know. And it's been a little while since Say Love My Way and shows in that era that really sort of pushed the boundaries of naughty, unlikable

So I think, you know, I think I think that the will and the love is there.

I love the fact that you tell Australian stories. But you know, for years we were like being very specific about how we wanted to be Australian instead of just telling colloquial story. You know, for so long there was like movies on the big screen and when it was said in Australia had to be so Australian. It couldn't just be the wasn't the everyday person story, do you know what I mean? We didn't do a love story

Absolutely yeah, and we are I mean, we don't need to have I mean, and I'm guilty of that. We've I've definitely done a lot of shots in the Opera House in my time and not a bridge. And you know, we don't need to go completely Australian in order to feel Australian as well. It's it's interesting now I'm writing for the US and the UK and you realize how different.

We are culturally. You know, you think, you know, you think.

That you're almost the same, but actually we're quite a specific breed of people, Australians. We have a sense of humor that is ingrained in us, and you know, it's hard for us to be earnest and you know where it's self deprecating, there's you know, we're interesting people to write and I think, you know, Australian stories can be that as well as opposed to just being out in the desert.

What are some things that we need to change in the perception of Australian storytelling.

I think our diversity on screen is something that definitely is being addressed and the needs addressing. You know that our casts are too white and our writers' rooms are too white, and it feels like that that means that we're not showing you know, Australia in a truthful way, We're showing it in a nostalgic, romanticized way. You know, we would be the myth of Australia as opposed to

That's where we get the best authenticity, I think.

But I think, as well, you're proving to people that we can do it, you know. I think that's what's powerful about your work. In particular. It seems kind of pie in the sky in lots of ways. But then if you look at Dance Academy, it's still so amazing that you got that off the ground. But I think it's powerful for you to show people that we can do it.

And we had this funny thing that happened with Dance Academy that no one really told us snow, And it's the same with the end.

None of our broadcast has told us no.

So Joanna werna Is, who produced as Cateemory, is a total kind of she'll hate this comparison.

I was get about to call it a pitbull terrier like that.

Just Simma says that she is sort of she just is completely determined that you you know, that we could go there in story wise, in production values, you know, and aim for like the cast.

You know, the dancers in the show were aiming for the stars, and so we did as well and really lent into sort of emotion.

And we had the gatekeepers at the time, you know that the ABC were incredibly supportive and let us sort of run wild rather than over noting us or trying to make it too safe. So we sort of got to do what we wanted. And then you know, and it's like it's over ten years old and it's still you know, still watched by kids around the world. We still get mail all the time, which is you know, it does mean that, you know, kids TV particularly lasts forever.

You know, we all know the lyrics, we all everyone about just sing a little bit of it and everyone trails along. Last week, leading names in the Australian film and television industry, you know, they launched a united bid to push Parliament to mandate local content and address the requirements for online streaming services such as like Netflix. Why do you think that is so important?

I think without it, where you know, we're culturally dead in the water as the whole world.

Moves away from the traditional broadcasting.

You know, without a quota system, we will lose Australian stories and you know Netflix have made some programs in.

Australia, and so there's Amazon.

But I think that I'm so behind the idea of incentives and quotas as a as a requirement, just so that we're not gobbled up and we don't lose all of our cultural identity.

Yeah, I think so. I think it's you know, ensuring you know, the industry's longevity. I think, you know, you've got to put those things into place, and if you don't, then you're going to lose it. I was going to say, outside of picking scabs, you know, you're a writer and executive producer on Made Up Stories and Blossom Films, Hauloo series nine Perfect Strangers, which is just finished filming in Byron Bay starring Nicole Kidman, Melissa McCarthy, Asha Ketty. Is that a dream job to work on?

I mean, of course it was amazing, you know, the Bruno pap Andrea and Jodie Madison and made up stories and pair sorry who runs from Bossom Films with Nicole Kidman. They have been you know, their total heroes of mine and also there they just love juicy stories and so this one, you know, being able to adapt a you know, to be one of the writers adapting Ellie and Moriarty novel and she is you know, she's almost my faith.

What's that process like though, you know, because this is a book that's established and then you're sort of turning that into a TV series and you're writing, you know, what point are you coming in and changing the language? You know, like, how does that work? Talk to me?

I don't know, well, I mean and also of course you know David E.

Kelly, who is uh, you know, one of the world's most foremost television writers of the nineties, two thousands, tens. You know, he read Alliant Biale and The Pick Offenses and The Practice and Little Lives and so he it was his vision the story, and we spent some time in a writer's room with another wonderful English writer, John Henry Butterworth, and we sort of imagined what the show would look like over eight episodes and then kind of you know, splintered off into the different corners of our

Yeah, so it was you know, it's just like all television.

It takes a lot of time, and you know, you go down a few blind alleys and then come out and see the sunlight and you know, figure it out along the way. And I think totally none perfect status is nothing like ever seen before.

It is a wild ride in all senses.

It's emotional, and it's it's really funny, and it's weird.

It's really great.

When are we going to get to see a trailer? Have you seen a trailer?

No?

Come on, you know, I've got Google alerts on it so that I'm just waiting for the trailer to come out. Were you nervous handing over your writing then to people like David d Kelly. Were you ever thinking, oh God, I can't do this, or were you just like, I have to be true to myself. I'm just going to do the work and I'm sure it'll be fine.

No. I was terrified, like completely terrified, and Nicole as well.

Who's reading it? Oh?

And so you know, actually I went to a wellness retreat after delivering one of the scripts, the one that Leanne went to when she wrote the novel, and I did like some hypnosis about how to not care so much about notes.

Because I'm just so frightened by what you would say.

And then was it hard to take that on board or did you just think, oh God, I'm getting this from a master, so I'm just going to take it on board.

I mean, I think it's always hard.

I'm thin skinned, and but it's really instructive and you sort of you do stand back and go, oh, okay, I see what you meant here, And.

That is a stunning idea. It's part of the business that it's the.

Worst fight of being a writer, just that endless notes forever and and.

But Sam, it's the best thing about you is that you are thin skinned, because I think that's the currency. That's what I was talking about when we started. You know, that's the rawness, that's the realness, you know, and it then bleeds into your work without even you noticing that, So you know, I think I think it's the best thing about you. It's probably hard in the process, but you know, it probably makes its probably what makes it work.

Absolutely, I kind of need therapy at the end of its.

Can you tell me something delicious about working with Nicole Kibban? Is there something that you can tell us?

Well, I mean, I think it's crazy how how much she reads, you know, that she to think that she's across as many projects as she's across and giving incredibly thoughtful feedback. I mean, I can only gush, and you know it's all coming from a place of character and truth and little things. You know, like I remember sort of notes on a scene that were like, I'm I'm only asking questions in this scene, you know.

And you just you just really feel like how she.

Metabolizes what she needs to do is just at this sort of extraordinary level. You know that she can play six things at once, and so you need to, you know, jump up to that level and write six things at once.

Yeah, she's incredible.

It's amazing you get to that nice Yeah, that's what everyone says, you know, they were really surprised that you're working at that level and you've made, you know, nearly one hundred films and you're now in this new level of being able to produce films and stories to be nice as. Really it's what we all should do. But it's not all what people would expect.

Yeah, Like, wouldn't you just want to nap? Like you know that she just doesn't seem jaded. She seems so excited to be working and to.

Be you know, thinking creatively about these people in the journey and yeah, just to have that long Joey's incredible.

Oh, just amazing. What's the because you're working on another one of her books though at the moment, aren't you? Is that what you're writing at the moment, which is the book that you're adapting at the moment.

It's called The Last Anniversary and it's set in Australia's set on the hawks Free River. So it's one of Leanne's earlier novels and one that she always wanted to.

Set in Australia.

Wow, my partner's read all of them, but he read them all before they got you know, before Big Little Eyes got picked up. My partner loves to loves to read, and so we've got them all in their original covers here.

I must have been club together. Yeah.

My mom's a reader, and so my mum talks to my partner about reading. I'm usually wasting too much of my time researching people online. I'm a stalker of people, you know, so that's sort of my passion is. I'm still reading, but I'm more stalking people and trying to find an information. Yeah, yeah, more so people like you, less real people, and I'm not stalking you know, friends

Thank you so much. It's been an absolute thrill.