Welcome back to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris and on this podcast I'll be going behind the scenes with the biggest players in television. On today's episode, I have Jamie Wiggins, who is a television editor at the top of his game, specializing in reality TV. He has worked across some of the biggest shows we've ever seen on
Australian screens. His job is to collaborate with executive producers and story producers to make us as the audience, fall in love with the heroes, secretly love the villains, but overall to be entertained. I'm so excited to talk about reality TV editing because it is such a complicated job which often is thankless or underappreciated. But also the editor often falls victim of being blamed by former reality TV stars when they're not happy with the way they've been portrayed,
which we're going to get to the bottom of. Jamie has worked with some of the greats across most production studios, but he's currently full time at Eureka Productions, which has just produced Holy Moly for Channel seven, Amazing Race for Channel ten, but also we will soon see a Sydney version of Selling sunsets for Amazon. This guy's a bit of a legend amongst the current creators of television, and i'd like to welcome you to today's guest. It's Jamie Wiggins.
No one really talks about the editor because we are just a little man in the shadows.
This show, in particular was by far the hardest I have ever ever encountered.
I've worked on shows before where we do have to portray someone as a villain who has a better chance at finding a girlfriend. Can edit has an EBB and aflow.
Holy Moly has arrived and it's got to be a lot of plot.
I think you just develop your style through nuances housemates.
This week, all of you can be nominated for a viction.
I think if you can watch it and see the editing, the editor hasn't done their job very well.
Good amte How are Yeah?
I'm great? How are you? This is good.
It's so strange because you never really see the editor.
Yeah, I know it's strange for us too.
So editing is a word which has been come synonymous with reality television, but we rarely hear from the editor. Why do you think that is.
I think it's because we don't really necessarily have a very loud voice in television. I mean where editors are considered the last scriptwriters in that I show maybe filmed one way, we get it into posts, it's edits it a different way, so how it was originally shot. So I guess like it's hard to put this into words, but we are very much part of the production, but we're also very much in the shadows. Yeah, we're not
out with you guys. On the shoots. We get given the footage, we edit away vpa away in our little edit suites and put out what you see on television. You know.
I've got this really funny story with a friend of mine who was on a different show to me, and she went out one night. She met these group of people, They had a few drinks, they hung out all night. We got to two o'clock in the morning, and she ended up outside I think like the cw to get in the cabs. And the guy that she was talking to said, oh, by the way, I'm the main editor on the show that you did.
Yeah, and gave.
This look of like, oh you're in trouble now. Do you think that it's a strange experience when you do get to meet these people face to face one hundred percent.
It's the weirdest experience because editing these guys, we could be editing them for months and months and months, and you get to know them so well, if you fall in love with them or you dislike them, and you feel like you know them so then when they come out, it's like seeing an old friend or seeing someone that you're really close to and they're just like, have no idea who you are. It's bizarre. It's got like a strange kind of I don't want to use the word stalker,
but it's got that kind of feel. Yeah, anyone that's not an editor, I'd be like, if you're on someone's Instagram page or Facebook page every day and you're looking at all their photos and following their story, but they have no idea who you are. It's not what editing is like. But that's the best example I can give of for someone that doesn't know what it's like to be an editor.
Have you been in that situation before where you've met someone after the show and you've been like, what do you do? Do you tell them?
If I saw someone on a promisee that I worked on, I wouldn't tell them, because I think it would raise a lot of questions, like how do I look for me personally? If I was on a TV show and someone came up to me and said, I edited you, my first question would be, how do I look? Am I? Okay? And I don't want to get into that kind of discussion with somebody.
When it comes to reality television contestants. Let's say I got the bad edit. What's your immediate thought when you hear that.
I think it's a fifty to fifty sort of thing, to be honest, because I've worked on shows before where we do have to portray someone as a villain, but it's never going to happen that we have to portray someone as a villain that's a very lovely person, But you can't make the most beautiful, kind, loving person a villain. And when ex reality contestants do say they got a bad edit, we're never misconsuing anything that they say. It's more nuances of music and nuances of looks and sound effects.
And okay, I'll give you an example of a cooking show I did. I won't name the show, but we had contestants that were cast as the villains and they ate a meal. They gave so many positive comments about the meal, but they gave one negative comment that the sauce was too tangy. So what we do in the editing if their casts the villain is we leave in the source comment take everything else away. So I can kind of understand people may feel that they got a bad edit, but I think it's fifty to fifty.
You know what. I think it's really funny. I meet people who've been on reality shows and they say I got the bad edit, and I go okay, And while they're defending themselves, I can see in real time them displaying all of the character traits that they say they don't have. Do you think that people these days have a really strong disconnect from who they think they are versus how other people see them?
One hundred percent? I often find myself wondering how I would be perceived if I was on one of these shows. I think I'm a nice person. I don't think anyone thinks they're a horrible person. So when they sit down to watch the show that they've been on and they come across in a horrible way, I don't blame them for thinking that they are ripped off by the edit. But we can only cheat reality so much.
Do you know if there's a point through the process of casting where they all of a sudden go Okay, that person's definitely going to be the villain, and then do they hand those notes over to you.
Yeah, every show I've done, whenever I start a new production, I mean, the productions I've been on lately don't have villains, which to me is good because although it's great to have villains in a movie or a TV show, like, at the end of the day, with reality TV, these are real people. They're not playing a character, so they have to come out and face the music once they come out of the house or the jungle or the villa. So,
going back to your original question, yes, we do. Usually on day one of a new show, get told okay, this character here they're the villain. But to my understanding, those people are usually quite keen on that idea. I think it's a weird thing where villains are almost celebrated. I call it kind of the like Connor McGregor factor. There's likable villains now, the PG villain, yeah, the Disney villain, yeah, exactly.
There's villains that you kind of are like on side with I think the best example of that I can give is like an Abby from The Bachelor. To some people, she's a villain, but she's a very likable villain. You can see that she's got a good heart. Even you, to a lesser extent on Big Brother, like you came in I think you were almost voted out in the first week or something. Yeah, and you were. I think you came in and said something like I'm the bitchiest
person you'll ever meet. But then as the show develops and we get to know you, we see that underneath that vibrado, there's like a really good, genuine person who still has these villainous traits. So to me, like character development is really important in TV.
It was before goggle Box, but I was goggle boxing people who were in the show thinking what would the viewers think? Yeah, so I was just saying what people were thinking, and sometimes that's villainous.
Well, I think what you said on the first night to Michael is normally like that, or you're just apogean.
If you keep pigeon all me as Ben Gay, can I pigeonhole you as being like a bogan because you've got a weird.
Hair again, like Australia fell in love with you because yes, you had the villainous traits, but you had a good heart. And I think if we can portray people in reality TV that do have villainous, bitchy, kind of funny traits, but genuinely good people, I think that's the best case scenario for everyone involved.
How does the executive producer involve himself when it comes to the editing process. So obviously they're there, you know, creating obstacles for people to jump over, creating storylines with a story producer, but how do they involve themselves with you? Like are you on set with them? And then do you go into the editing room knowing their notes or are they handing them over to you?
Okay, So the way it works, I'll speak from the way it works from shows I've done, but the way it works on day one, will get given an episode
and we work directly with the post producer. So someone that goes side by side with us, finds the story in the show, edits it down and as we might get upwards of fifty hours at footage for a forty five minute episode, So you can imagine the process involved with that so over a two week period, usually we edit that fifty hours let's just say fifty hours for argument's sake, down to maybe an hour fifteen, and then we have what we call a structural screening, where the
show won't have all the bells and whistles that you see on air, it won't have music, it won't have sound effects, but it will just be a story at it. So then that's seen by a supervisor who will either say yes, do this, no, do that, don't like this story, follow this story more. So, then we take those notes and go away. And then that's when we start applying the bells and whistles and everything like that to sell
the magic the show. And then two weeks later we have a screening with an executive producer, which I mean, I've been editing for eleven years now, and every screening with an executive producer I still get the same. It's like, imagine if you did an artwork and a whole bunch of people came in and disjudged your artwork, and then people are saying, No, I don't like red, can you change that to blue?
No?
I don't like those leads? Can you make them lower? Like that's the process. So an executive producer will come in give his notes, and then we've got about a week to action those notes, and then it usually goes off to a network or a streaming service who then give their notes. So there's a lot of hoops to jump through before the fifty hours I'm given gets to a television screen.
Do you get really funny about people handing those notes over? Do you get annoyed over time that the same notes come back for you?
Oh? Yes, yes I do. Because the thing with television is it's subjective. So like what a supervising producer may want may be different to what an executive producer may want, which may be different to what the client may want, and they could be giving you different notes. So you're like, but hang on, you told me to take it left and right, but now you want me to take it
up and down. It's a very subjective process. So I get frustrated when I find myself going back and forth with notes, Like if someone takes me on a bum steer in one direction and says, no, why did you do that? Go back in this direction. It's basically like repainting a picture over and over and over again.
You've worked with some of the same executive producers again and again, so obviously rehire you. Is there a flavor or a style that they know they're going.
To get with you. Yeah, I think with ITV, for example, with Alex or Ben Olm, I get given more of the kind of opening scenes, like the flashier kind of I'm an editor that likes using a lot of sexy shots and sexy effects and cool looking drone shots. So with me, I think big epic scenes is what I like. So like whether that's the start of a new reality series or the teas at the front.
Which is my favorite. By the way. I love the openings. I love especially under Celebrity always opens the year. Cannot wait for it because I love the sweeping shots. The drama then creative.
I love that, and I also love comedy. What you touched on there with working with different executives, that's really good because I've learned so much from working with people like Ben Old and Almavadyakus and Ricky Priust. You know, they all have such a wealth of knowledge in television, and you learn little bits from all of them, and then you just take the bits that apply to you, and then I kind of feel like I've been molded by these people into what I am.
But then think about it. You've been working for eleven years doing this job, and you know it's in the industry that can be really difficult to maintain employment, but you've still kept getting hired on the biggest shows, you know, some of the most amazing shows. Do you have a show that you can't say no to that when that comes around again, they go can you come for this? You're like, I want to do it.
Yeah, I have two that I can't say no to that now I do have to say no to because I've had a child, one being I'm a celebrity to get me out of here. I think you would find it very hard to find anybody who works on that show that didn't have a blast. The other one is Love Island. I think for an editor, those two shows are really refreshing to work on because we're very much a part of the team in those kind of twenty
four hour turnaround shows. We're not off in Sydney while the show was filmed in Africa where they're with production, so it feels like where all one big unit, which is refreshing. It's also a refreshing show to edit in terms of the way it's almost more real because you don't have the time to manipulate stuff as much, so we kind of just have to edit it as we
see it, which is also really exciting. On any other show, you know, you could spend months on the same scene, whereas this is one day that's it might not be perfect, get it out.
Are there contestants that are particularly good that stayed in your mind?
Yeah. I always like the likable villains, like the like a Nash Pollard from MKR, the villains that have good hearts but also kind of own their villainness. I also really liked on I'm Celebrity. I think it was season eight, Angie and Evie. I found them really fun to edit. That's got a really good dynamic. And Richard Reid too really funds to edit. Yeah, I mean those definitely stick in my mind.
We often talk about producers wanting to manipulate the cast to make a good content for the viewer. But then also I know a lot of these producers they quite often protect the contestants. So what do you hear more often do you hear turn it up or turn it down?
It depends like if it was a real, genuine moment, we definitely lean into it. I think you hear the word frank and grabbing a lot where we, you know, put words into contestants mouse and I have never, in my eleven years of editing, made up something that somebody said.
I might say, you've never frank and grab.
I've have frank and grabs one hundred percent. I've frank and grabs, but I've frank and grabs in the way that I've cleaned up what somebody said, not mis betrayed what they said. I'll give you an example. So if a contestant said I hate oranges but I love apples, we could frank and grab that to say I love apples, but I hate oranges. But that would be mis betraying. Yeah, fair message. So we don't do that. I know there are shows which I won't mention, that do do that.
But when I frank and grab, I'm more clean up what somebody said. I'll give you an example. So if I said I love Couldie Beach it's my favorite place to surf, I could break and grab that to say I love surfing at Couldie Beech. Yeah, it just makes a cleaner more concise sentence for television. I think everything these days is everyone wants everything very snappy, and so that's the way we're editing.
Now. Do you turn away shows because you know that they're more frank and grabby types shows?
Yes, yeah I do. There are two shows, very popular shows which I won't work on just because I know that they misbetray people and I just just doesn't sit right with me. So, you know, I've got to go home and sleep at night. And these people, like I said earlier, on these people, they're not characters in a movie. They're real people. They have to come out and live
their lives and face the music after this. So I think if you've got people that are happy to be the villain, people that are leaning into their villainess, but also have the right intention and the good heart, I think that's the best outcome.
It's so funny though, I from my experience of reality television and from them talking to my other housemates, so many of them said I was portrayed really differently to
who I was, and I was like, what. Whan I watched it back, I thought they were portrayed exactly like maybe it was a heightened reality which meant that, you know, certain character traits that they had every day, but the reality was my walk away and my take home was that they were pain in the neck and then they go but I wasn't like that, And I'm like, no, you weren't like that all the time, but you were
like that. So I think what a lot of producers are doing is just encapsulating or heightening the version of who you are.
That's exactly right. You use the right word. They're heightening, and that's what we do because that's what we do as editors, where storytellers that are trying to, you know, tell a clear, concise, but also entertaining story. So if someone in the Big brother House was nice for nineteen hours of the day but had a really bad moment for half an hour, but that half an hour would make really good television in a two minute, by what
part are we going to use? And we heighten things, you know, like I can kind of empathize with reality show contestants that say they got a bad edit because we heightened, We exaggerate, So someone might have said a horrible thing, it doesn't sound that horrible, but when you put nasty, menacing music under it, it sounds like they're the worst person on planet Earth.
You would talk about the screenings before, like as in the screenings all get together, who attends those screenings, Like who's always present for that?
Okay, So the company I'm at nowt Eureka, we have Paul Franklin, we have Ricky Proofs. They're the two kind of main EPs that we work with at Eureka. So they attend the screenings and they give us approval to send off to the client. And usually network television, you do have a screening with the client in the room. When I say the client, I mean Channel seven, ten, nine,
Tannel ten, Netflix, Amazon, stand they're the client. Usually what happens is we have a screening with the executives of that particular company, so Eureka, they give us the approval to show their product to the network. Basically what they're selling to the network, so they need to have confidence in it, if that makes sense, So they're going to give their notes, their feedback. They want to make sure that they're representing the company in a good way before we then show the network.
What happens if the show is finished editing, like is now we're pre recording stuff or we're editing a whole series, or whether they're waiting until the audience can give an idea as to what's working. Does shows ever which are doing as well have a reformat to.
Them very very rarely, because a show takes about six weeks from start to finish, to edit and then before it gets approved to go to air. Usually, once a show is on air, that time is gone because a show's rarely on for longer than six weeks. So no, I wouldn't say if a show's rating badly, would they pull us all editors back to re edit every episode. Also, by that stage, the audience has kind of made up their mind too, Like if a show's tanking, it's very
hard for that show to come back from that. Like once you know, once you go from a million to seven hundred thousand to four hundred thousand to three hundred thousand, it's very hard to get back up to a million. I think it's I don't think it's ever happened in my career. I'd say what they do do is maybe
change the way the show's promoted. So if it's a show that you know, the network really backed and has a lot of babe in, they might promote it a different way or promoted more heavily, you know, with sponsored ads on Facebook, on Instagram, and they might change their advertisements on TV. I'm not saying it's never happened, but in my eleven years as an editor, I've never been pulled to remake a show because it's not doing well.
It's funny that you hear those stories, though, because you're like, oh my god. It's if they would imagine editing that whole series and.
Being like, you know, holy Moly, Holy Molly.
For instance, you know Holy Molly was like that, you wouldn't go you finished Holy Molly, it's locked away. Imagine if they came back and they said, it'll be like re scrambling a jigsaw puzzible.
It's yeah, and it's not. It's never going to be worth it too, because there's a lot of money involved in that and it doesn't guarantee you a result. I feel like, if an audience has made up their mind that they're not watching a show, you can change it and make it the best show ever made and they're not going to watch it.
You worked on the Voice, which I think is is such a great brand here in Australia. You know, we're I've seeing so many seasons of that now. You know, when it comes to watching the music artist, I mean these artists get up. There is there ways in which you can emote the performance to make sure that the audience doesn't fall too deeply in love with a contestant that the coaches won't turn around for No.
I think with the Voice, we want you to barrack for every person that walks onto that stage, because that takes a lot of guts. I mean I definitely couldn't. I can't see them, but if I could sing, I wouldn't do it. So I think you'll find with the Voice it's a very feel good, warming show. So before any contestant or artist walks onto that stage, we have a backstory, and they're never a backstory on Love Island
or on Big Brother. We're going to portray someone as something they're always it's a barrack for that person they always have, you know, we get the oh, not another sad story. But you want to feel for these people. So when they do hit that amazing note, or they do turn the chairs or they don't turn the chairs, you really feel something for them and that's what makes good television. I think my name's Jack James.
When I was fourteen ends up winning show. There's got talent. I went from being just some kid to fame and money and everything. Somewhere along the line, I.
Just fell out of love. It's mission as clicked completely. I just felt alone and at rock bottom. I think if you can barrack for somebody, or you can feel for someone, or you're with them on the journey, that's what makes good television.
How do you turn around those sixty seconds getting to know you clips? The how do those get made?
Usually there's a really long interview that we watch through thoroughly. Basically, we try to print that person in the most concise short way possible.
When you're watching a stream of audio or a stream of visual audio, can you mark it straight away and go, that's that's what it is. That's what it is.
Yeah. So we have this is boring editor talk, but we have a thing called located. It's on our edit suites where anytime a contestant has said something that we want to use, we just mark it down like a red dot or a blue dot, and we come back to those and that's how we do our cutdown. So say one of the contestants is a farmer from the outback. You know, has an amazing voice, but he's been through years of drought. They are all the headlines that we want.
We want that he's been through the drought, he's struggled, and now he's here to like improve his life. I think all farmers have a lot of hope. Your hope is going to rain again.
You hope you'll fall in love and that you live happily ever after.
What's the point of life if you can't have some love. So that's the story that we will tell in that sixty seconds. And how long does it take to get that it It depends on the person. If they've got a very clear, easy story, it can take a day. But if they've got a story where you know, there are hip hop artists that skateboards, that's man died that likes walking dogs, it's like, okay, which one of these
do we follow? You want to be able to print someone really quickly because in a backstory you can't tell everything. You can tell the headlines and then you let the audience at home get to know these people in a more authentic way.
I love them let's still go back and watch different seasons of it. A lot of the reality shows just to watch the buyer videos of people, because once you've known them and once you've watched the series, it's so fascinating to go back as you go, Yeah, that's sixty seconds really did tell a story that continued for another three months.
YE was going to ask you, when you go back and watch those bio packages, are they accurate?
Always?
Yeah.
I don't think I've ever seen by a video that is completely out ofwapp Yeah. I think that they're so accurate, and I think that they're so telling, and I think it's fascinating to one pack. You know, getting the humor right on Holy Moly that has been a really interesting journey because you know, Australians could be quite funny with our humor and what we find funny, and that show has been wildly successful in America, and then you're bringing this kind of best in show style of humor to
Holy Moly. Is it an easier or a harder show to try and insert humor in something like that.
I don't think we really changed. I don't think we really changed the way we've made Holy Moly from America to Australia. I think we tried it with exactly the same comedy timing from Rob, so our brief wasn't different. It's just feel like Rob's humor doesn't necessarily land as well in Australia as it does in America. And I can't put my finger on why. I think maybe it's because he's American and Australians want to see fellow Australians on TV. I can't put my finger on it. I mean,
I'm a massive fan of the show. I love working on Holy Moly, I think it's hilarious. So when I read things online that, oh, this is so unfunny, this is crude, this is all this, this is horrible, it genuinely surprises me because I think it's fantastic.
I think what's really funny is these shows that people write online about. People write about I'm a celebrity, Oh they're not famous. Julia Morris is not funny, Doctor Chris Brown's a bit weird. All of these things that most people are commenting online don't necessarily reflect the viewers, the people that truly love those shows. Yeah, so it's really fascinating and it's really hard to turn yourself off. Do you turn yourself away from reading comments about the programs you work on?
Ah? I should, because I find it definitely does bum me out. Like when Holly Moly the first episode aired, I was on Twitter all night reading the comments, and with every negative comment, I've just felt my soul being destroyed because I was so excited when I first worked on Holy Moly USA and I couldn't wait to show my Australian friends and family. And then when it's come here and you know it's done okay, but it hasn't
been received as well as I would have hoped. So yeah, reading negative comments about something that you've spent huge amounts of hours crafting, putting your sweat and blood and love into it is pretty soul destroying. So yes, I think my wife was angry at me for being on my phone all night on Holy Moly launch night, But I should turn away. And I think it's probably the same with reality show contestants when they come out and they start reading horrible things people have to say about them.
Don't read the comments section.
Yeah to people, Yeah exactly.
You know what's funny? I had my phone take really fascinating to sort of digest the way in which we are taking upon people's feedback being our critics, and I would say, whose opinion seems to cut deeper for you? Really? Is it people you know, like your mate saying I don't like Holly Molly? Or is it faceless people online? That's a great question because we know who should matter.
Yeah, but it's not the truth. I think I've been lucky with the people I surround myself with that I've never really had anyone tell me I don't like this. I've certainly worked on shows that you know my mum, and I wouldn't expect my mum or my family to watch I think, weirdly enough, the comments online are what affects me the most because they're not in any way biased. That's who we're making the show for, the people that we never see.
What about your wife, folk, I mean, does she Do you think she's being honest with you about the shows that you work on, or do you think she senses herself?
I'd say she senses herself. She's a very beautiful, kind hearted person. And if I do something that she may not like, she's certainly never told me something I do. It's terrible If she said she didn't like some I don't know like I would if it's somebody I can have a dialogue with and ask, okay, why I think that's I think that's probably sorry, That's probably what it is. It's probably that I with the people online. There's so many times where I've typed something back and then erase
the race to race, to race, the race. And if Rachel and my beautiful wife said I don't like this show, I would be able to say, oh, okay, why, how could it be different? I'd be able to have that feedback. I'd be able to understand what the issue is. A lot of the negative comments about Holy Moley online is that it's not funny. I don't have that opportunity to say people to say to the people making those comments, Okay, how would you like? What would be funny to you?
How would you do it differently? It's not that you can please everybody, but it would just be nice to know why. I mean, if I could be critical about one thing for Australian Holy Moley versus USA Holy Miley, would be duration. But I know that's a discussion way above me, way above my pay creap. That comes down
to money. And what's financially viable for the network. But I think the USA one is a much snappier forty two minute You get your gags in show, whereas I think a ninety minute may just be a bit too long and everything stripped now because we were talking about that with David Mott last last week and he was saying, you know, we stripped the content. You know, we're stripping things out longer. I think Holy Molly would be a once a week thing. I one hundred percent agree, I think,
And that's how it is in America. In America, it's a summer show once a week for forty two minutes. So ideally, with that, you get people at the end of the episode going, oh, I want more, because that's what we want. We want people. If you think about any Netflix show or stand show that you've watched that
you binge, it's because you're left wanting more. And if we could leave people wanting more and putting in their calendar on next Wednesday, Holy Molly's on, I think that's the way I would do it.
You know, one of the things I ask people every single time to finish TV reload is what's a funny story that you tell when you're sitting around with you and family, like the dinner room conversation. Yep, what's your go to story from being an editor working in.
Round Yeah, Okay, there's lots of little micro stories that I tell, so, like you know, being an editor for eleven years, I've worked in a jungle where I come into my edit sweet ones to find a curled up snake on my mousepad. I've had bad burns robbed me in Africa. So I've got lots of little micro stories. But I think the one that sticks in my mind the most was when I was very young in my career as an editor. We worked very tight deadlines as an editor, and I was desperate to prove myself being
young in the industry because it's quite cutthroat. You know, you constantly need to prove your work. And anyway, there was one night where I had a screening with the executive the next morning, and so I worked really really late. At this time, I was driving from the Central Coast to Sydney to work, so about an hour and a
half each way. Anyway, I had a screening the next morning and I got a whole bunch of notes from my supervisor that afternoon to action before the screening, because I was like to be here all night doing these notes. So what ended up doing was I did all the notes. I finished them at about two o'clock in the morning. I was way too tired to drive back to the Central Coast and then drive back, which would have been three hours of driving in about a six hour period.
So what I did was I slept at work on the floor and I thought I'll be okay because the cleaner's come in at seven o'clock in the morning and they'll wake me up and then I'll freshen up and be ready for the screening. Of course, that day, the cleaners didn't come in, so I was woken up by the executive and the team coming in for my screening. While I didn't have pants on, so I had my box of shorts on. I had to get myself. It could have been. I think they were very kind to me.
I think they know that I worked really hard, But for a fleeting moment that was the most embarrassing moment of my life with a senior team coming into a junior editors edit suite where he'd been sleeping and in your shamboled in my undies. So that's my.
Story then, is that when you decided to move and live closer to the studio.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it'd been coming. Like I think I knew I needed to move closer. I thought, Yeah, that's definitely the straw that broke the camel's back with that one.
Well, I just want to say congratulations. I think you have done so amazingly well to craft this career, but also you know, to keep getting highed, to keep coming back to being able to do what you truly feel passionate about, and that is telling stories. And I think there's a lot of people out there that it'd be fascinating to hear what you've been able to share today. So thank you so
Much, thank you, and thanks for having me on