It's in the news today, but it was actually on TV Reload, the podcast Last Deep Their Life. Hey guys, welcome back to TV Reload. I want to thank you, of course for clicking and downloading on today's episode with Sarah Walker, one of the executive producers and writers of The Twelve, which is on series two on Foxtel at
the moment it's kind of mid season. I have to say that I'm a big fan of Sarah's work over the years, and in a past podcast contract that I had before I did TV Reload, I featured LGBT I Guess that talked about their backstory and in some ways it was my chat with Sarah that made me think about my passion of television, that made me think I was better suited to talking about television. So you know, look, there's a bit of trivia there for those who have
been listening to this podcast since the start. Sarah is a highly experienced Austrayan author, screenwriter and script producer. She was the lead writer on Lingo BBC one's ratings hit thriller The Secret that She Keeps, which played out here on Foxtel. She co created Network Ten's one and was this script executive on the prison drama Wentworth, which I absolutely loved. I will ask her today about the future of The twelve and how important Sam Neil is in
the continuation of this story. I will ask about the nature of Fox Tell's productions and how Brian Walsh's legacy has played a part in making scripted drama moving forward. This season of The Twelve feels a little easier to follow, and it's rare that a second series is better than the first, So I will ask about the notes that we're given before they went back into the writer's room to create this series. We will even get an update on the work that Sarah has been doing with Charlie's
thereon Oh My God, amazing. She's been working with her for quite a few years on a few projects that haven't quite seen the light of day, but I believe when they do will be quite amazing. There's actually so much to talk about with Sarah, and I absolutely love talking to her. You can hear that in the chat. She's very passionate about television. Guys, sit back and relax as we delve deeper into the production of how they made The twelve series two. When Yeah, I really hope you enjoy this chat.
How are you, Ben? Are you good?
I'm so excited to talk to you because, as you would know, I've been in your audience for so long, and I actually had you as a guest in a podcast that I previously did five years ago where we talked about your LGBTI legendary status amongst the media. But here we are, five years later talking again.
Yes, I think legendary is probably pushing it, but I'm very glad that you can say that.
What a great opportunity to talk today about the twelve Just so amazing. You've obviously been kicking some serious goals since we last spoke.
Yes, we've had the wonderful opportunity to come on to a show that stars Sam Neil and is super elite. I think in terms of Australian television, it's a huge show. It's got so many characters and so many storylines and threads, so it's a real challenge. But I was invited on season one as a writer and a kind of co producer with Brad Winters, and then ultimately in production. I took over the second half of the production to see it through. And we're talking about season three, which is great.
Well, this is the thing about the show. It really does lend itself. I mean, the idea is genius because we can just come back and see Samuel back there in that role and get twelve new characters for us to win best our time in. It's fantastic.
I mean, it's kind of like an anthology series in that respect. We've got our lead, wonderful, cheeky criminal barrister in Sam Neil's so charming, and as you say, each series is a new crime and twelve new people that
we're exploring. You know, because of that, it's actually quite challenging because most series, now, you know, when you open up for the first episode, you've got usually a single protagonist or maybe two, and all you're doing is setting up those two people and their journey how it's going to go. But on this one, we've got you know, at least four core durors plus eight more, and then we've got the crime and all the people associated with it,
and Sam's character and whoever his rival is. So you know, it's a really tricky to kind of get it out of the gates fast and set everything up. But it's a challenge that I'm enjoying.
I did feel like this time around, for me, it felt a little bit more succinct. There wasn't as much left unanswered for the audience to try and interpret. So I'm curious about what notes will passed down from series one to series two.
Well, it's a good question. I think there were notes passed down from series one to series two in that we should reduce the number of core Duror stories, So rather than trying to follow all twelve to a kind of even or close, we should choose maybe four major storylines and use that, and the other jurors become not invisible at all because they've all got opinions about the case, and they also become engaged with those core characters that we're following, and I think that's why it felt much
more manageable to both write and watch. But I also think, you know, we were basing our first season on the twelve from Belgium, the original creators, so we were kind of guided by the model that they'd used and the way they'd done it, and in season two I was able to take over. We haven't based anything in season two on anything from the original creators except for the model of the show and how it comes, so I
was able. I felt more comfortable taking I guess agency with that and making decisions made it a lot easier.
I think I remember talking to Penny when about this, about not treating the audience though as though they're stupid, always remembering to treat the audience like they are intelligent, and I think that's what this drama feels like for me. We don't know exactly where it's going to go, and it's that's how it maintains your engagement level is by not giving away everything and setting so many things up that your brain can has to process.
I've been extremely heartened by the response to both season one and season two because you have it beaten into you that the audience you have to come out of the gates really fast, give the audience a lot of information, hook them up and tell the story so they don't
get bored. And I really believed, I have always believed that Australian audiences and audiences everywhere are intelligent and if you give them something that's genuinely solid and good, that it's just like having a nourishing meal, they'll take their time and they'll allow you the time to do that instead of having this fast food model where you kind of shove it in your mouth and stick it down and it gives you all of those great kind of
feelings in the first ten minutes and then you're hungry later. I really feel like happy that audiences will sit with these and we'll sit with the show, and we'll sit with the crime and it's more of a slow burn in terms of storytelling, but I really believe people are more hooked than they are by the other version.
I think you're right. What you have been able to do is really make it our own and make it very Australian, which I think is great. How does that work in terms of global appeal outside of Australia. What's the reaction been to other countries watching the series?
Well, you know, we don't get a lot of information about the international viewership, but I understand that in the UK it's gone through the roof, and I think everybody in the industry at the moment is really interested in getting becificity around characters and places. It's what intrigues people. So people watching from overseas may not have seen these kind of areas portrayed in Australia like this, is suburbia.
These are real people's houses. They're not all beautiful harbor views or beaches, and so I feel like there's a real interest in what it is to live in Australia or be in Australian that we're presenting in a way that it hasn't often been presented before.
I think you've captivated that community spirit really well. There's something quite fascinating about slowing it down and taking it out of a metro environment and putting it into this rural setting, because it does feel a little bit more contained. With that a conversation that you're having, you're like, Okay, well we want to slow this down so audiences can keep up with us. Let's take them to this smaller setting.
It wasn't so much about slowing it down. It was more about what would happen if you had a big trial. You know, we were intrigued by the fact that the juries are peaked from your peer group, But what happens in a small town, a very small town when courts, the Supreme Court has what they call the circuit and all of the lawyers and the judge go on a little trip around the regional areas and all of the main cases that are too big for local courts there
are heard in this traveling Supreme Court. It's called the circuit, but as we refer to in the show, they call it the circus the lawyers themselves because it is really like a rolling show. And I think we all found
it intriguing. These people are supposed to be judged by a jury of their peers, but their peers are from the same small town or that same region, and so how can you be judged both fairly by people who probably haven't an idea of a view or have heard the stories, but also if the jury knows each other as well, that was kind of intriguing, whereas in the city scape we can't have, you know that the jury,
none of the jury members would know each other. But we felt like it added a whole new layer and texture to the jury room.
It does, and I think I like the overall question can the twelve really be impartial when they come from such that tight rural community, And that's what's fascinating about this series.
Yeah, can anyone? Though, I mean, it's one thing we all ask about juries. They're human beings, you know, dealing with things outside our workplace and in this case, they're kind of contained in a workplace that is the jury. You know, when things are going wrong in your home life, or if things are triggered by you know, things that you're hearing in the trial, you're triggering personal things. You know, You're all bringing your preconceptions and your own ethics and
your own life story to this case. And I guess that's one of the things that we always want to explore, is how the case is affecting the jury's current life and vice versa. How is the juror's current life affecting their perception of the trial. I think that's one of the fascinating questions.
What about Sam Neil we were talking about, you know, this series could do series three, you could do series ten, like could go for a long time. What do you thought, Well, do we have to always have Sam Neil? Do you think it's imperative? Did you wait to hear that Sam Neil was going to do it before going ahead with series two? Was that a crucial element?
I'm going to say, from a personal place, what is anything without Sam? Now? I love I mean, I love this man. I you know, I could honestly sit and listen to him reading anything and just be fascinated because he's so charming and such a wonderful screen presence. Technically, no, we could have. When we first started the plans for
season two, we didn't think Sam would come back. Wow, it never you know, we just didn't have that on the radar, and so you know, we were questioning, are there any characters that we want to have back from season one? Or could you just start fresh? And I think we all agreed that you could have started fresh in the second season. I think now that we've had Sam back, and thankfully he did come back, because he adds so much to it, I would hate to go
forward without him. I mean, technically it's possible, because you could obviously, since it isn't that anthology sense, you could find yourself in and another season and with another group of lawyers or even you know, perhaps a prosecutor instead. But I would hope that we don't it doesn't come to that, because I think he would be a loss.
You can't set up sort of Kabakova or whatever it was from Murder she wrote, and not have Angela Lansbury back.
You know what I mean, right, Yeah, he's definitely a crucial piece of the puzzle for me anyway, then let's see how we roll.
You know, I had a lot of conversations to with Brian Walsh while the first season of the twelve was going into production, and I heard about his passion for this series. He really believed in this series. I would like to know from you, because I know you've got to work with him. What was one of some of your memories about working with Brian Walsh with getting this series together that you cherish?
I guess, oh, look specifically, I mean, God love Brian. He was really such an amazing part of our industry and he's still sadly missed. So yeah, look, he was just enthusiastic. I think when you've got Brian's enthusiasm, you feel like you're just on the right path and you can't you know, you feel very supported and buoyed by that. I can remember pitching him the Crime for the second season, and that was on a zoom and obviously with other members of the team, including Penny Win, but he listened.
There was just silence, as there often is when I'm talking about a story and you kind of don't know how it's going down so well when it's on a pitch because you know, seeing people's faces, there's often like six seven people all in little boxes on the screen.
But I remember him saying something like I can't remember the exact words, but he was like, this is fantastic, this is amazing, And so your heart just goes through the roof because you know that you've got Brian's support and you know that he feels safe that you're going to deliver something that he's going to enjoy. And all I remember is the enthusiasm and very few notes, which is also fantastic When that happens, that's a compliment within itself.
What does a Foxtel look like though now without Brian? Like Allison Hubert Burns is there and well she'd been there working with Brian for quite a few years at that point. How has Foxtel changed making a show? Have you noticed his absence? I look, it's hard to take Brian out of a situation and not feel there's some kind of whole. But I think it's more about, you know,
genuinely missing him as a person. And he had incredible energy and the kind of thrusting energy around the projects and around people, and he would grab new talent and kind of say we need something for this person, and so there was a lot of development kind of push around Brian that I'm not sure whether that is still the case there, but I know that from my experience
on this season, they're incredibly involved. Penny Winners is a wonderful consultant for them, and you know, she gives us thoughts that I think would echo what Brian's were and her own of course, and Ali Herbert Burns came with us on ARECI recently, so we all spent like three days down in a regional area of Western Australia and it was wonderful to have her there because you really felt like she was bringing the same kind of support,
interest and passion to the project that Brian bought. And I really don't think there's been any change to the level of expertise or interest that there's still you know, a wonderful team absolutely.
You know, it's interesting our contribution to scripted drama here in Australia has just really leveled up in the last couple of years. You know, we side settle HBO dramas and you can see the level of our achievement has just is matching that. What do you think the biggest difference is in all the biggest change in the way we approach storytelling here in Australia.
I think part of it is the fact that we're now as an industry having to rely on co productions with America and the UK much more than we ever had. Therefore, our storytelling needs to be much more globle because people, even though we're telling specific Australian's stories, the way we tell them has to be more sophisticated at a global level. I think there's been an understanding that some of the more conventional, older ways of telling stories in Australian TV
are no longer going to fly globally. You've got a whole bunch of new emerging voices coming through who are very literate to how stories can be told in ways that aren't conventional, or their personal stories so that you know they have a personal spin on the way they're told. I think all these factors are changing our storytelling for
the better. I think I felt like a lot of my career I was boxed into the conventions according to Australian TV, and now you know we're able to go, well, how about we just tell the story well let's not do it by a formula, and I think that's an incredibly good thing for the industry.
Do you think that that can be then adopted by some of those long running soaps that you've worked on, you know, at different times you've worked on Home and Away and Neighbors at different points of your career. Do you think that sort of learning in telling stories will be adopted by them or do you think that those sorts of soaps are still stuck in that sort of formula that they know that works.
Home and Away and Neighbors are their own animal and they're very, very, very successful. So what they're doing has always worked and possibly will always work. I think the way that those the production demands on those shows, I mean, it's almost impossible to do it any other way. You know, they're putting out so much material, and I don't think
they're really need change. They are successful as themselves. I admire everybody who's working on that kind of show that's turning out like two and a half hours of television a week.
You know, when we spoke last time, you were talking to me about a project you're working on, and all you told me was Charlie's thereon. That's all I think we touched upon and you couldn't say anything more. But I've dug something up on the internet. So like I found Charlie's Barn's production company Denver and Delilah on a pilot for HBO. Is what you're working with them to get this project up and running. What can you tell me about this project? Is this still happening?
It is notionally still happening, or we've had a couple of things. I was working with her on another project some years ago, like five or six years ago, and actually this was set up at Netflix and we you know, COVID hit and that show was to be shot in four different countries, so that obviously had to go on
the back burner. And then of course post COVID, which you know, it was there for two years, and then post COVID, the option on the book could run out and things had changed, and so I think that that's
now on the back burner. And then she asked me to be part of another fantastic project, which was an HBO pilot which I wrote, and then we had the writer's strike and so I feel like and then by the time that came back again, the option had run out on the book, and there'd been a documentary series of the same project put out and had run all through the writer's strike. And I think it was felt by HBO that the audience for that, even though it was really good, it wasn't high enough to warrant doing
a period drama series. But you know, Charlie's is fierce, and she's you know, an incredible producer, and she'll no doubt take it elsewhere and it will have its day. But at the moment, we're just in a little what would.
I say, Well, we really suddenly seeing the real effects of what that righter stroke is at the moment, you know what I mean. Funny, you can go to the cinemas. I was only at the movies the other night. And I worked at the cinemas as growing up, so even on a weeknight, people went to the movies. And you know what I mean. Was that the movies the other day? And I said to the guy that was serving as, I said, you know, is it quiet at the moment?
He said, it's really quiet. You know, because back in the day, we would have a Gladiator coming out every week. You know, we would have Wicked coming out every week, which is two big movies that are about to happen. And it's sad that, you know, we're in the midst of that. But I guess there's also so much of our viewers and our attendance to go to see the movies and now watching television. You know, there's also a big element.
It's it is demoralizing what's happened to cinema. And I mean as a person who has an incredibly long term film buff and my you know, my goals and dreams are around film, like the ultimate is you know, winning an Academy Award. That's still the ultimate for me. But in this environment where films are no longer being made in the same amount, people aren't going to the cinema.
Even myself. I used to go once or twice a week because there'd always been a new film out on the Thursday, and whether that was at an Arthouse film and I was off to the Palace Cinema or I was going to you know, Hoitts, I would be there at least once a week. And now I can't remember the last time I went to a film at the cinema. So I'm a die hard film buff, and yet I
no longer go. I wait until it's on television. So I can't even you know, I can't even be and ferocious about that because I'm falling into the same trap. It was really COVID that did us in. You know, up until then, we were getting a lot of content coming every week, and so you were kind of there and you wanted to see it before it went off, and because next week there'd be something else, and so
there was a kind of momentum to those releases. I'm definitely going to go and see Deadpool, But in the meantime, I think what's happening is I am really hopeful because of the projects that are on my desk at the moment or my slate, several of them are wonderful feature films,
and these are coming in. I've never had so many feature films on my slate, and I was I've discovered, you know, I believe that it's because, you know, with all the algorithms out there at the moment, there's been an understanding that people only watch three episodes of a series that they're not going to watch. They'll give it three episodes and then if they don't like it, they
don't watch anymore. So you know, the big companies are spending If they've created a series it's got eight episodes in it, that means five episodes worth of content aren't being watched by the majority of people that you know, and so that's a lot of money that's down the drain in terms of content. If each episode is being made for five million dollars, and that's like twenty five million dollars of content that's down the drain, and it's
a risk. So I think that the big company is a big broadcasters now are going, okay, well, three episodes, this is the equivalent of one feature film. So if we get people, if they'll give it a shot for that amount of time, then what we should do is
make stuff that is that long. So some of the big streamers now are starting to turn two lower budget films, films sort of under ten million or under fifteen million, and that will create not only hopefully much better content and a much more people staying for it giving it the whole film, but it will also invite a lot of risk taking, so that you've got many more emerging directors, writers, actors who are going to have an opportunity to do it a film under ten million dollars and have it
bought by the streamers and have it shown. And I believe that that process over time will reignite people's excitement about film and perhaps put us back in the cinemas again.
Interesting though, with going to the cinema, I'm such a like because I grew up with it. I love the community of being in a theater to watch something. It can really change the perception of the product. Like I've been in cinemas where you know people laughing or people reacting. There's nothing like that community of being there like that and knowing that it has such a powerful effect on how well you enjoy the show. I feel like cinema is worth being protected, and I would pay to go
and see the Twelve in the cinemas. Is it just me that is thinking that we could put some of these? I mean, Sarah, I remember watching Mayor of Eastown because Fox John Binge had it, and we had a screening of the first two episodes to watch Marraor of Eastown in the cinema, and I just remember being like, it was so amazing. I mean, Kate Winslet's obviously the protagonist of that story and She's a known film actor, so it was not unreally like unusual to see her on screen.
But I just was like, I feel like people would pay money to watch some of these series in theaters.
I think that's fantastic, Like I mean an eight hour cinema experience, or a six hour cinema experience. I guess it'd be what. It's actually a great thing to explore. I think you should be the person who brings it to the to the world.
I feel like, in particular or any of these places should just have a HBO cinema, you know what I mean, what's really interesting.
It's a great idea, and you could kind of loop it so that people could come in an episode, you know, if they only watch too that can come back and watch the rest.
I think it would be quite amazing and immersive.
I agree. And in fact, you know you're saying about the cinema, about the screening that you went to. Nearly all of our TV shows have a cinema screening to start. They'll usually show two episodes to all the cast and crew, sometimes also to reviewers, and you get to see it in this big form, and because you know, we have such wonderful directors and talent now dops working with us that. You know, it is a great experience to sit there and watch it and it's not at all the same
as being on television. It's you know, something gets lost in that. And so I agree with you. I think it would be wonderful. Let's find a way to do it happen.
I remember someone was watching that Mayor of Eastown episode and leaned over and said, I think it was to d Or. It was maybe to Brian, who was down for that screening of that first episode of Mayor of Eastown. The two episodes finished, and they said, well, can you play the next episode? Can you play this? You know, they wanted to stay there. They were willing to go and buy them more red wine and come and sit back down and keep watching.
Well. I had the same experience when I watched Tim Mention's upright, yeah, because I think they played the whole thing and it was half hours, you know, but it was it was long. And my intention had been to leave after two, you know, to come and say hello and show my face and kiss you know people, and then watch the past two episodes. And I couldn't leave.
I sat there. I was not going ending where and it was fantastic to watch it in that and I was just absolutely riveted for the whole thing and excited to see something complete as well, you know, the whole story movie marathons.
Do you remember them? They had movie marathons in the nineties, like back to back, breach of features, put me in there. You know, I'd sit there at the pastoor in those uncomfortable astor seats and watched at least eight hours of the show.
It's true.
Yeah, I honestly I've over I'm over time. I would just enjoy spending so much time with you and just talking to you because I just so fascinating. Well, I feel like that with the rest of Australia is watching this show at the moment, we're sort of on the same roller coaster and trying to work out if Patrick and Sasha are innocent or guilty. Have you got any any tips for the viewers that are watching it at this point, anything that they should be looking out for.
How what can you tell us before we get towards.
Well, all I can tell you is that the twists keep coming. There's you know, it's I don't think you can never I think you know the intent was to make sure that people were never quite sure. And we have really some really great storylines coming up or moments coming up that will change your mind or reconfirm what
you already think. I can't speak enough about how wonderful a performance is by Amy Matthews, and I think in the last couple of episodes even more so, I think that people will be really satisfied as they go along. I don't think there's a moment. In fact, it's one of those series that I would say continues to kind of grow in its momentum as it does. You know, some can fall off towards the end. I think this is the reverse, and so I'm hoping people will be excited to keep watching.
I am with that person. Can I just say I watched episodes four and five just before we chatted, and so I was like, how do I write to d Who do I write to?
It?
Foxtel to just give me more episodes. Amy reminds me of like a young Sigourney Weaver, you know, like there's something very fresh and dynamic about her acting that makes me think of Sigourney in some weird way. I don't know if I'm alone with that, so people listening to the podcast hit me up if you feel the same. But she's incredible, incredible.
She is. I worked with her a long time ago on Home and Away, in fact, and I had her marked as someone who is an exceptional actor, and so it was wonderful for me to see her come back into my orbit on this show and to prove in fact she was everything that I had always thought. And it's wonderful to see someone who as appearing seemingly a fresh face or someone you know, people haven't seen a lot of I've had so many producers come up to me and say that actress playing the lead role Amy mathis,
where did she come from? And I'm thinking, well, she was here twenty years ago. She just hasn't had that moment in you know, for quite a while, and I'm so happy to see her having it.
Give her the awards, give you that I want to everyone to be please acknowledge for the show, everyone who joins the pot. I finished on this question, what is something from behind the scene, something we as an audience won't know or won't get a chance to know, sort of a behind the scene secret of making the second series of the twelve if you can help us with something a funny anecdote or a bump in the road or something that had happened along the way.
Look, I've gone blank, but I can say that we were filming in New York, which is the most fabulous talent for filming because it's just completely untouched. It's like a straight out of the Wild West. And I can remember going down the street with Sam Neil and there wasn't I think practically the shops were all closed. Everybody was running out on the street to catch a glimpse of him, and I think the excitement around that was wonderful. And I said to him, Oh, Sam, you know, what
are you going to do? Like he said, I'm do you know that there's the only sock factory left in I think I don't know whether it was Western Australia or Australia. Yeah, where they're still manufacturing socks is here, So I shall go and get myself some new socks. And that was just as the funniest guy, and so off we went to the sub factory. And I think that that it sort of sums up Colby as well. I think just a unique person and a unique talent and it was lovely to put in that town and
to have such support from the town as well. It was everyone was super excited to have us there and so welcoming.
I love the idea of them all peering out of their windows to get a look at Sam Neil and there's so much more person. I interviewed him once after the logis and I was such a random thing. You could put your name down to interview certain people you don't think you're going to get to do it, sort
of a red carpet scenario. But then afterwards in the media room, and I just remember thinking that this person was, for one thing, could be a comedian, like he is so funny, like I was like, and I'd ever known him at that point was just being this very serious actor. But there's just so much more to his warmth and his integrity. Is just a joy to be around. And it's a surprise, you know it is.
And he's wonderful intelligent with his notes too. Just for the record, I love it.
Well, hopefully he listens to this podcast. Sarah. I am in your audience, and I am going to be in your audience forever. I will be there cheering you on when you get your Academy award. I feel like it's the it's in the water, it's got to happen.
So I love you, thank you, and thank you for having me back. I really appreciate it. It's lovely talking to you.
Ben No, thank you for your generosity with your time. I will let you go look after yourself and I'll say how amazing you were to d so thank you for that.
I appreciate that. Thanks So, I really appreciate your support and enthusiasm.
Okay, watching