It's in the news today, but it was actually on TV Reload the podcast in last week that line Welcome back guys to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris and on this podcast I go behind the scenes with the biggest players in television. I've worked in Telly for twenty years, but I've also got to go behind the scenes with writers. The truth is, when I started writing it, it wasn't had nothing to do with the news and casting agents.
They know from a casting point of view what they need, and.
Editors because that's what we do as editors where storytellers, not to forget some incredible executive producers who are making some of the best TV in Australia. We thought he'd be too to self aware.
Well, in fact, exactly the opposite was true and he became the biggest character in the show.
So thanks for joining me each week and I hope the podcast continues to give you real insight into the magic of television. Today. On the podcast, I have the latest evicted castaway, Samantha Gash from Network Ten's Australian Survivor. Samantha re entered the competition with her now husband Mark Wales and played the game of blood versus water with gusto, passion and determination. Outside of the game, Samantha is a social entrepreneur with heart, grit, and intelligence, and is affectionately
nicknamed Sammy. Her authentic storytelling bleeds a mission statement that has inspired millions and has won friendships with her philosophies on life. You spend a minute with sam and you immediately feel heard. On today's podcast, we will talk about her time in the competition, the decision she made, the flag she copped, and the way in which she built lifelong friendships with the entire cast. So let's get started. I'd like to welcome Samantha Gash to TV Reload.
I'm a villainous player and I lean into that and I own.
That previously on Australian Survivor.
Be bold, be strategic, and don't shy away from strategy. Not only are they safe in Mark's hands because he's not going home tonight, but it gives us choice. We both felt safe enough in our relationship voice opposing opinions. Anyone has a head and immunity idol, you'd like to play it, and that would.
Be the time to do so.
At every point, you've got to decide what's good for short term game what's good for long term game.
Sixteenth person voted out of Blood Person's Water, Sam.
What comes out of adverse and immersive experiences is really enriching relationship.
Hi Sammy, how are you?
I am well? Thanks for having me on the potty.
Well, congratulations on such an amazing contribution to this year's Australian Survivor. You were one hundred percent there to play a very big game. How are you feeling after watching last night's episode?
Oh, it's you do kind of feel like you're back in it, but watching it in a weird way. I just put my heart and soul into this season as a returning player that had her time cut short, most likely because of how I didn't understand the game fully, and so I took this opportunity and like gave it everything. And I was comfortable leaning into villainy, being a swing player, making bold and risky moves even if it would potentially
damage my game. And I look back on it and just go, oh, how good is it to just fully live something and have no regret. I think I played the right move last night in sacrificing my game to
leave Mark with two idols time time again. I've played the scenarios of what if I played the idol and then stayed and we had a couple with one idol, And I just kept thinking, that's ego, that's not good strategy, because you get to the next vote, you know that you're going to be the target because you're the only couple in the game. You've now only got one idol and you don't know who to play it for, and
they could have split the votes. We could have played the idol wrong and you're left then with just one player and no jewelry. As Chrissy likes to say so, I think it was the best play for us.
I just still can't believe that you guys weren't using these idols like it was good for my health as a viewer.
Yeah, I actually lost so much hair playing this game. I was just like I was, clumps was coming out, like in part from malnutrition, probably from increased tress going through my body.
But after what had happened to Cann and you know you had a good friendship with him, and I think you know you saw him go home with an idol, and I mean, this isn't the same scenario but at the same time play the goddamn idols. Like I just need this. I need you to explain it to me again. I know I watched it on Telly with the rest of Australia last night, but I need you to explain it.
So I'm going to separate the last two votes that you saw, so the one when I went and then the one that Jordan went, with all the other votes where we had both idols, we were very confident that we didn't need to play the idols in the other ones. I know you see like paranoia and me being anxious, but I clearly wasn't that anxious if I didn't play the idols, and at that point in the game, we
weren't up for sacrificing ourselves. That was a decision that we made on the Jordan vote, even though we didn't know that kJ had an advantage and that I would have to act my ass off and pretend I had an idol with me. We got to this place in the game where we were like, it's really better to have one go forth with the jury and a lot of how I'm like adopting Chrisy's language, and then one of us in the jury so it was just a
tactical decision. You know, at every point you've got to decide what's good for short term game, what's good for long term game, what's the role of revenge? Which really I think revenge is not a great strategy because it closes your mind to options and time and time again, I tried to get Jordy to work with me. It blows my mind that I really think I was the most fluid player of the season. I was willing to go there, there, there, there, and he wasn't willing to
use me. And I mean, he's still in the game. I'm not, but I feel like I could have been an outlet for him, and we would have had he would have been out of work with the Idols.
It was a exhausting at times to what you go around and comman dear these relationships with people. You know, you went out there and in some ways you were playing a much more reckless game. I was wanting to ask you, was that on purpose? Especially knowing that Mark had these two Idols left behind, because so often throughout the game he got to sit back instead of being more fussery.
We're different players, like we're different people and different players. I did that the whole way through. It's not like I just did that when I knew that I was at threat. I am a dave picked it on day three, like I'm a social butterfly. I like to quollin it all over the place, and I like to get in people's faces, but in a soft way. It's not parentoware. It's not anxiety when you're wanting to have conversations. Everyone
is having conversations. But I will say, like the perception of me having conversations and calling it crazy and unhinged versus Geordie having conversations with everyone and people saying he's an underdog and he's just playing hard and that's awesome, is bullshit. And everyone has a right to play, whether you're at the top of the pecking order in the game, or you're at the bottom, or you're at the middle.
And I was doing that while still keeping a majority alliance, keeping two idols, and not getting voted out like I haven't gotten all until now. I wasn't voted out with all that stuff. There's three people in the game who have now been voted out, and so they're going to have to be that much better if they get to the final three to be able to outweigh the people such as Mark, Chrissy, Juicy, Dave, and Josh who can say, well, we did not get voted out of this game and we're still sitting at the end.
Well, I mean, it's going to be very telling for the jury when it gets to that point, because I think those factors obviously come into the gameplay. You know, I know from back catalog of reality television, you know, you can sometimes win a car and then that means, oh no, you're not going to win the show now. Or you might come back into the show from a twist. Oh no, that probably means you're not going to win the show now. So like sometimes those advantages are disadvantages in the long play.
Every player is different in how they choose to use it. I mean, some people's threat level drops after they've been voted out in the comeback because people see them almost as damage goods, and so they can kind of hide under the radar. And if they explain that, well, well then it's a great play. It's all how you choose to package up what you've done in the game to shift the minds and the hearts, because it's a mind and heart game of the people sitting on the jury,
and I get to sit on the jury. My game technically hasn't stopped because I get to have a saying who wins. But also I still have a stake in the game. And there's only two other people on the jury who have that, and that's Jesse with Jordy and Jordan with Josh. So no one else has a jury member who's in the game.
It's interesting, it's going to be an advantage. I think at that point. A lot of people watching the show last night, we're talking about this on social media about Jesse's response to the buildup of it possibly be you going. Some people read it as though Jesse was so excited that you were coming to be on the jury with him, and some people read it as though he was excited that you were being chucked out of the competition. What's the clarity of that.
I'm sure he was definitely delighted I was getting chucked out of the competition. I mean, if I played my idol, George was going. So many Jay's in the season, Josh, Jay, Jordan, It's like a tongue twister. If I played my idol Jeordie was gone, so of course he wants his brother to still be in the game. Like Geordie's win is Jesse's win in part as well just like my win
is Mark's win and blah blah blah. So of course he was delighted, and so coming on the jury, it's you know, I think it's probably arguably the most frostiest reception to a jury villa that you've seen.
Well, if anyone can handle it, it is you. I'm going to say all confidence. How long was that pause though from Jonathan Mapalia? Did you think not think that was a big signed because you know, Cahn talked about that when he was on the podcast that Jonathan left a really long pause, and so like I but is that not the same amount of time that it allows for everybody? Do you think there was a significant longer period of time for both you and Karhn to make a different decision.
Karn's pause felt palpable one because I knew that he was going home and so it felt significant. This one got filled with Josh saying play the idol, Play the idol. So it felt like it went like this that said we knew what we were doing. I knew that Josh was writing. I could tell I didn't have confidence before I went to tribal council that Josh is writing my name down. But Josh wouldn't even look at me in the eye a tribal counsel, and so we had already decided,
you know, we're not going to play the idol. We're willing to sacrifice one of us in the game. Proof of the pudding is that we did that the previous episode by leaving them at camp. And there was this part of me that's like, you know what, Josh, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you really wanted me to still be in this game, you
wanted an idle out talk to me at camp. So now you can burn both of the alliances in different ways because you've basically shown that you were willing to burn us, but also you weren't willing to one hundred percent be with the other alliance. And now he's going to have to deal with that. And this game is so fluid, like it changes day by day, and I think now that they're all singles, I believe it's going to open up and you're not going to see these
stagnant alliances anymore because it's definitely the end game. They've literally got one week left. Now there's pretty much going to be a tribal council every single day, so it's going to be intense.
Your interactions with everyone post game on social media says everything to me about the type of person that you are. So many of your opponents celebrating your time on the show, even as far as people saying you're one of the best Strain Survivor players in history. That must be a really hard thing to do after playing the sort of game that you played. How did you tackle that?
It was very hard for me when I came to merge and I knew how good my game had been, and Mark probably one didn't realize it as much as he now realizes it, but two probably was less compromising. And so that's why you see that tension between us, because we both felt like we played a great game. So we, you know, going into the game, we were like, Okay, well one of us can only get to the end, the other will go to the jury if we're so
lucky to get to merge together. And so both of us were like, but I should be the one that should fight for my case because my case is so good, and he's like, no, my case is the best. So you see two very stubborn, strong willed, competitive people initially fight for the right to play their game. There's so much gameplay. It happened like it's kind of a bit like premature to have that, but you had to have it because essentially one of us had to yield at Merge,
and Mark ended up kind of I yielded. I was a good woman. I yielded. But it did make sense, and a lot of people have said things like I'm a subjugated woman. I didn't have agency, but I did because I could have. You know, told can't to play an idol. I could have voted Shay, but I chose to go along with it because I did see on the face of it, it made the most sense. He
had the numbers. I came in to Merge with less numbers at water two point zero, and my game strategy was to lay load for two votes because I had really put my head out of water in my pre Merge game and I needed to create relationships with people. So it made a lot of sense. Even though it was hard that by the time I chose to sacrifice there, I was fine with it. I really was, because I
felt I could see the animosity on the jury. Mark also was willing to sacrifice himself because going into the previous tribal we didn't know who they might go against. So the fact that we were both willing to do that for each other, I feel like that shows how much we were willing to play as a unit that it was not even a How calm was that conversation when I was like, Okay, we shouldn't play the idols, let's leave them at camp, And it was the quickest,
most seen, less, non emotional conversation. I think that you've really seen in the.
Game so far, absolutely, you know, and sometimes at those moments it felt surreal to watch. But I think that's what makes good reality TV intestines or participants is when people are really being real. And I thought it was amazing for us to get an insight into the dynamics between you and Mark being husband and wife. That's when reality TV, to me sings, is when you see people
being their authentic self inside a competition like this. You know, because you're not supposed to watch that stuff, but we as humans love to be a fly on the wall for other people's drama, you know what I mean.
We've gotten so many weird commentary about it on both sides, Like so many couples have said to me, oh my gosh, if it was me and my partner, it would have been like so intense. They're like, you guys didn't really
raise your voices at each other. Yes, you were stubborn, and both of you for a moment were non compromising, and there was a few little kind of curse words, but it was pretty well handled between the two of you in a high pressure scenario when you're both malnourished and you're both fighting hard.
Well, for me, I just thought it was relationship goals, right.
Yes, I think so too. And you know, I also think it's we both felt safe enough in our relationship to voice opposing opinions. I think it actually is a testament to our relationship that we you know, neither of us are a sheep. We actually both say it as it is.
More, people don't need to look at things like that, you know, conflict in our relationships at home don't necessarily have to be a negative. They actually can be a time to be heard. And I think there's a lot of people in this world that could use an inside of that. We don't have to agree, but that doesn't mean that we're not getting along.
Yeah, And it's I think conflict in the professional environments but also any personal ones. As you said, it's not necessarily toxic. It's that you're willing to work through it and voice your opinion and it's not always going to look pretty, But doesn't mean you don't have respect for each other and doesn't mean that you don't want the
best for each other at the same time. It's just you're two independent people, and the hardest thing in life is a relationship of two independent, strong willed people making a relationship work.
What about Mark though? Has he been as eager to make these relationships work After the show?
I mean, I'm obviously in the jury quite I'm in the middle, and so I've got time, Like I'm going to have seven days now with the people that are already on the jury and then the people that kind of join along the way. That time is really therapeutic and cathartic, and you get to experience each other your non game version, and so it's like the most realness of your relationships, And you know, I think that's where really perception shift from like Sam's an evil snake and
to know like she just played the game hard. She just wanted to win, like every single one of us. And so I think respect cultivated through that experience. They know Mark and I have like we've gone up to we've actually seen everyone. We've seen every single person since the show's finished. We did a road trip afterwards in a camper van with our son and went up to Queensland and stayed with Chrissy for a bunch and saw Shay and Benny and Andy and Kate and Juicy Dave,
and we've in Melbourne. We've literally seen everyone. We've done like kind of Christmas dinners with Kahn. I'm actually going off to Dalsford to stay with Kahn, Nina and Amy and Mark over the next two days. We actually love each other, like it's a really great cast. I mean, I watched the episode last night with Jesse and Amy came over as well. So you know, I think people get nervous to put themselves in adverse situations, but what they don't realize is what comes out of it. That
adverse and immersive experiences is really enriching relationships. And so I don't think we should shy away from challenging scenarios that can involve a degree of suffering.
I think just after you finished talking there, I realized that anyone that listens to this podcast is going to come and watch your next TED Talk, or at least hire you for any kind of relationship building advice.
Do you know the funniest thing I have done a TED Talk, and I do briefly talk about Survivor at the end, But the funniest thing is, like my first season of Survivor, I found it incredibly hard because I was still searching for this sense of belonging because particularly when things don't go your way, and a lot of pre merged players feel this like their time is cut short sometimes because they've either played too hard or they haven't been aware of the dynamics of the people around them,
and so what makes them really successful in the outside world doesn't necessarily relate to this environment. And so I remember feeling like I was seeking belonging in that place I found Mark, but that became part of the reason that I got voted out This time I played and I wasn't there to feel belonging. But interestingly, you sometimes get what you don't expect. And I did feel belonging
in moments, but it wasn't the agenda. And I think if you're going to play Survivor, be comfortable not belonging. Just be comfortable being, you know, in this fluidity of an environment that is constructed to not be real even though it's real for you.
In that moment writing it all down, Who did you feel the worst about throwing under the bus? And there was quite a few, but the two that stayed with me was Cahn and Jesse and maybe Shane. Can you tell me Shay Ruth.
I was happy for Shadow, And only reason I say that is because I hadn't played any of the game with Shay and I voted her partner out twice, So it was going to be hard to work with Shay given that context. You know who you play with him in the pre merge game. Really that comes with so much time, and it's hard to foster a new relationship and emerge if you've never played with someone. So Cahn't Khan, Khan can't can't come. I love that man in the
game and outside of the game. We actually have a lot of mutual friends, but we've never spent time together. We've never known each other on a personal level, and I had heard his name being leaked as a contestant prior to the season starting. I thought, there's I perceived that he was going to play a really heavy, villainous game, interestingly, and then I got on the game and I'm like, don't have prior conceptions about how people are going to play.
Just go with the moment. And he just ended up being the absolute delight of a human to be in that space with. He was fun, he was light, he was nurturing, he was strategic, everything that I liked to play with. Every night we do what we called the midnight Daily Debrief, and we were like in the bushes whilst everyone's asleep, and we were like, okay, I'm a midnight daily debrief. And we just spoke candidly and protected
our thoughts and didn't share them with other people. So he'd given me the community necklace, you know, show displayed loyalty versus just speaking it and that is hard to find in the game of Survivor. And so when Mark and that entire alliance from Red two point, I wanted him out. I feel like I fought for cunning the game more than anyone fought for anyone else. I feel like I fought for him more than Nina, foot for Sandra, and more than kJ for Sophie. And you know, I
think that also. Once he was gone, though, I realized, Okay, I've got I've got to turn this stuff off. I've just got to play. And that's maybe why it made it. It was hard, but made it easier to get out Jesse because I could see the fact that Jesse and I were a thirty day friendship, we versus My alliance that was the most important to preserve was my alliance with Mark.
But then your friends will spoiler a lot. You're friends with both of them after the show, So for people listening to the podcast, you know, stop sitting on the edge of your seat over that one. Getting back to the start, how did Andemo Shine approach you and Mark about returning to the show. I want to know whether or not you'd been hitting them up and saying we want to come back, or was that them coming.
To you They came to hopefully I'm allowed to say it, they came to us on this season. I never thought we would get asked back. I mean, I don't think we delivered anything that spectacular. I did actually ask them, like, why did you feel like we should get another chance? And obviously we fitted the theme, but a lot of them kind of said, I feel like you had untapped potential to play and you got distracted and you got affected by maybe you were a bit naive and unaware.
And I think when you get a second chance in life to do anything, you take it with everything, and you kind of learn from the areas of your mistakes the first time around and try and give it a better bet. And so I remember when I got Jesse's idol.
I think I said something like this move has been five years in the making, which probably would have led them to the villainy even more, but it was like, you know, to be able to correct trust with someone and to do that, and let's be honest, if it wasn't the theme of blood Versus Water and never would have done that to Jesse. It would have been the most ludicrous move to betray someone who trusted you. But
this theme was different. And I think because we haven't seen this theme play out on a stream survivor, it's taken people time to get their heads around the fact that you've got an automatic alliance member, and that is what you should preserve it all cost. My kind of like motto going into this game this season this time round was don't do anything that's going to negatively detriment Mark's game and ours. There are players in this game
Jordi onto Jesse. That was essentially the reason that Jesse went out was how Jordi played. Jesse never knew when he was in the game that Jordi had told everyone about Mark's idol, So for him, when he got to the jury, he didn't realize why I had flipped on him. So when I get to the jury and I explain that, it's like the penny started to drop, going, oh yeah, my brother had betrayed Mark. Therefore, why would Mark work with Jordie moving forward? And therefore Sam couldn't have done
that either. You know, it's so complicated and it takes a while to get your head around, even being a player, so I can understand why it's confusing for a viewer.
It's a much bigger flight plan. I think, you know, what we see is very minuscule in a way, because you actually have to then go back to these alliances that are happening around and the reshuffling of that. And we know in real life that things can change at
the very last minute. So but I wanted to ask about whether or not you and Mark had planned a particular strategy before going into the show, and how much of that stayed true to its plan, or whether or not you just got in there and had to react.
I can't believe how much our strategy played out. I feel like we to this point delivered on everything that we said we would do. We said that we would try and be as physically disconnected as possible, which caused problems. But the reason we did it is we were scarred by season two of being identified as our couple. So you know, Mark chooses to not go on a tribe
with me. It was part of strategy. Didn't mean like my gutural response wasn't like, oh my god, my husband has to want to play with me, But quickly I remembered, oh no, like it's not good to play together at this point, wait to hopefully being in a fortunate position to merge to do that. When we got to merge, we actually were physically disconnected quite a bit. I mean
straightaway it merged. Jesse and JORDI were like Vis. They were running off in every corner like of that campsite, always together, and they started to get a bit of a reputation of being a bit sketchy and fringe players and potentially not as loyal as the rest of the majority alliance was. And so I think it was important that Mark and I kept that separation because that read
two point zero blow key. Alliance sometimes questioned whether Mark was playing with me or with them, and I think that was good strategy because of course he was playing with me, but he was making them question that, which means they felt more loyalty to him. We also were very clear that we were never going to both go to the end, So I mean, who knows what Mark's going to do, but me being on the jury is consistent with that.
Okay, so it's still all happening, you know.
And his cross he's got two idols.
You know. The whole disproportion of being attacked online by people has led to many discussions about if you were a man, would the public have reacted in the same way. What is your take on that.
I don't like everything to be gendered, but I have been confronted with so much that I do feel it is gendered in the relation to the types of commentary that I'm getting. So the best kind of parallel example is when Dave did the move on Phoebe. He kind of encouraged her and manipulated her to tell the clue and then he finds the idol and then votes her out, and then he's quite sinister and how he kind of
communicates about it. He did cop backlash for the move being a bad move, but he didn't get any attacks to his personal character. So I've had a tax to how I am as a parent, what my moral compass is in real life, and my aesthetics, in addition to it being a bad gameplay and people saying there's no way people would vote for them at the end because I've done this, No one said that about Dave, And in fact, he got all the one votes at the very end, and he celebrated as a golden god and
he's a lovable, villainous player. I'm definitely not lovable. I'm a villainous player and I lean into that and I own that, but I'm not people. I don't see me lovable, even though I'm showing emotion. I'm doing this for my son and my family. There's so many things that I never speak negatively about any player in the game, but still I get tird with like a Russell Hants type of villainous player, when really I feel like I'm a cheeky, opportunistic villainous player.
Yeah, that is how I saw you. I mean, it's one hundred percent how I saw you. It's very strange to me that anyone saw you any differently. I actually saw your gameplay being very similar to Dave's on his two times on the show. So why do you think that is Like, why do you think that we can't see women the same way as we do see men.
I don't think we've as many women play in this type of way, and so therefore maybe there's an unfamiliarity with it people are on I mean, I think when the first time, you know, you know, Richard Atch played on season one in the US when he was villainous, people are uncomfortable about it. But it definitely started the tone of what Survival is going to look like and people went into that. In Australia, we're only seven seasons into our iteration of the franchise and we've seen big
male villainous players. But can you name many big villainous female players.
No, And I think that we need to see more of them, and hopefully your gameplay has less women thinking I shouldn't be like that. I think next season hopefully we see more women be like that.
And like I know, for example, Hailey, for example, she was an incredible, incredible at line, but still didn't get tarred heavily with like heavy heavy villain edit. And so the way I like to think of it, it is as opposed to being deterred because of the online backlash that I perceived, future players feel free to lean into it because the more we see it, the more audiences
will be comfortable of it. Be bold, be strategic, and don't shy away from strategy because we're all there to play, like for there to play, and hopefully both players and audience members are like will get used to it. And it happened in the US too, like it took a really long time before players like Poverty even Sandra were loved for being villainous.
So I have to ask you the question that I always ask everyone who joins the podcast, and that is what is something from behind the scenes that we as an audience didn't get a chance to see, but we might appreciate knowing from your experience of making participating in Survivor.
You know, I'm sure everyone says, like what you don't see on camera is the like humorous, fun, playful sides. What A two point zero was an absolute vibe. I see red two point zero was like no offense, guys, I love you. But the boring men's club where they just got fun times was reciting movie quotes, ring, But
we were extrovert and extra plus musicals. We had so much fun and it was hilarious because we kept going to tribal council and we literally had to keep voting people out and they've got second chances in the game, and so it was heavy, but we had a lot
of fun doing it. I think, you know, there's certain players that were really incredible and had so much potential, and I'm going to do a shout out to some of the female players that I really saw that in Brianna Amy and definitely some pre merged players that I think have a lot of potential in the game.
Well, I was obsessed with you right from the very start, and I'm so excited to be able to have this chat. You should be so proud of the gameplay that you had on the show, and I hope that it's more inspiring for other people joining the future seasons to play more like you and to be themselves. So thank you, thank you.
We should all be uniquely are even if it's villainous.
It can be villains on reality TV.
You know, own it.
I mean, I think that helped me, and I think that it helped me appreciate you on the show.
So yeah, I think. You know, like when you know yourself really well and you're comfortable with yourself, you also how to depart your from yourself to play a game. And like for me, the delineation between me Samantha Gash versus like sat the Gash the player is just so clear and I'm like comfortable with the two. Didn't mean it didn't take an emotional toll, because as much as you can depart from yourself, you also go back to
yourself at night time. And you know, I had many nights where I was like, I can't believe I just did that to Jesse, Like, but it's the game and we're great friends in real life, and I can't wait to watch this final week of it as well.
This is going to be so exciting. Well, thank you so much. As I said, just like so good. And if you ever feeling sad about your time on Survivor just feel that, hit me up on Twitter because I will just say something really effusive about how much I loved you on the show, and then you feel better about yourself.
Oh you're a legend. Thanks so much for the chat, and I hope you enjoy the rest of it.