Multi-award winning Aust production company MATCHBOX

the show, and they do a really good job. It's great to see some opinions being shared. And while I've been focusing on all television away from Big Brother this year, I still love hearing what people think of the show. But it might not be as good as Margaret Pomorance dragging Big Brother for three whole minutes online, which you might want to check out. A good way to see that is on TV tonight, as I think they've posted it. It's bloody hilarious and I know you will love it.

This week I saw an advanced screening of Acorn Original's series two of Missus Fisher's Modern Murder Mystery that will be available on June seventh, which I really liked. It's super camp and I grew up watching, she wrote, so I love a good murder mystery. However, I love Joel Jackson even more. You might have seen him in the award winning role of Peter Allen and the Boy from OZ. He is so sexy and I'm just going to shut up about him right now because I've started to embarrass myself.

Check out the trailer for that show and let me know what you think on Twitter. My Twitter handle is Benjamin J.

at the helm of Matchbox. We talk about everything from Stateless with Cate Blanchette, the upcoming series Things I Know to Be True with Nicole Kidman, and then we move into the Real Housewives of Melbourne, where we discuss who of the housewives will be on Celebrity go or should I say, who should be on Celebrity goggle Box. If you love the ins and outs of the television industry, well press subscribe to this podcast and in the meantime

let's get started. Good today's guest, I'd like to welcome Alistair McKinnon to TV Reload.

Has I actually been offended even looking at your Well, Jackie's doing Housewives of Melbourne at the moment, so so I think I think she'd be great on a Celebrity boggle Box.

devoured more. But I was also really obsessed with classic Golden Age of Hollywood as well, So you know, I was really into all of those Katherine Hepburn and Spencer, Tracy Movies, Davis, and just used to watch film all the time. I mean it was my number one past and I was not a sports playing child, so I was very much indoors watching, glued to the vhs. I had a very well used membership at our local video shop. And then I think on the TV side, I was

kind of quite into those. It's probably a bit revealing overall, but I was quite into some of those quite high camp, you know, event miniseriies, so things like The Thornbirds and Returned to Eden, things like that that were just such high drama that now would be the stuff of satire and spoof, but at the time were kind of these conversation pieces that just the whole world was talking about.

So I was always very into that. And then, of course, you know, as a young tenang, I love neighbors like everyone else, Jason and Kylie and Guy Pierce and those soaps so look pretty broad for me, I would say.

creative endeavors. I ended up doing studying law at university, but I did go to film school as well at VCA, and I think I got to the end of sort of much to my parents' sort of pain, I think, you know, nine years of university jumping between law and film and all of that, and realized that I was

probably definitely more suited to that business side. And then, almost by chance, I've been living in London working for my uncle who was a documentary filmmaker, and I moved back to Australia to Sydney, and one of the first jobs I got was at the ABC. It was meant to be sort of like a temporary thing while I was settling in and then kind of stuck around, and then I ended up getting a job in the legal

department there. So my first kind of industry job was actually within the legal team at the ABC, and in there you're sort of doing things like, you know, there's some proper law stuff like defamation actions and pre publication advice, and I was always trying to drift closer to the content. And so from there I went to the Australian Film Commission, was working in legal there. I did a stin at the Writers Guild in policy. Then I was at Screen Australia,

also in policy. I worked at OZ Film for a time doing international production attraction and then found my way to SBS Business Affairs, which was you know, I stayed. I really enjoyed a lot and ended up as the head of Business Affairs, but was still trying very much

to move closer to content. And then Greer Simpkin, who's a good friend who at the time as a deputy head of Fiction at the ABC, was leaving, which was had created this kind of very rare opportunity because people in those jobs tend to hang on to them because

they're great jobs. And I managed to segue myself over into the fiction department at the ABC, and shortly not too long after that, Corrolsplan, who was the then head of Fiction, resigned or retired and I found myself as the acting head of fiction suddenly at the ABC until amazing. It's a combination of intention and ambition and always coupled, I think, with a little bit of luck and timing. I think sometimes you can't really necessarily map those things

out in a really controlled way. You're at the mercy of external forces. But you know, I've definitely had some luck along the way.

That along the way, you're meeting people, you understanding of the industry and how it works kind of just is building and building.

No one sets out to make a bad show or a bad film, and it's just as hard to like a good one as it is to make a bad one. And you're just relying on the sort of alchemy and so many elements kind of converging at the right time. You know, it's a lot of hard work, I think from so many people. It's such a collaborative industry to get you there. So when you do have those sorts of successes or those highs or those moments, yeah, you definitely can't take it for granted.

how that has to happen. So I think you know, we is needs to be patient or so I think it just helped bridge maybe a bit of a relationship gap that can exist from time to time, not always, but you know sometimes when that's there.

more of a global drama brand. So I think, you know, the explosion of the streaming and we all know and talk about that a lot, and there's lots of industry debate at the moment about what that means and Netflix and Amazon and how do they kind of fit into the ecosystem here, But certainly even five years ago, that

opportunity wasn't really there so much. So I think my main missions so I've got here is to really try and push out into the world more So, I think one of the things that I'm most excited about and you know, there are others coming down the line, but was certainly getting a series order from Amazon for Things I Don't be True with Nicole Kidman, you know, partnering with Blossom on that show, you know, Andrew Babell's exceptional play and his beautiful writing, all of that coming together,

and then seeing the excitement from Amazon for that work and working with Nicole and at Blossom on that has been a really exciting, I think, demonstration of what that ambition looks like in practice. So it's one thing to say, yeah, we want to be on the world stage and we want to be making global shows and converting that is

not straightforward and it's not easy. So for me, things I know to be true, that getting that across the line and now working towards bringing that to Scream feels that is something I'm pretty excited about and pretty proud of.

head above order, no matter how talented you are. And I think they realized that by joining forces they could be much stronger as a group, which is how it turned out. And then NBC picked up on that and after about sort of five or six years, ended up

buying the company out. That hasn't really changed, I think anything about what Matchbox stands for or it's DNA and in terms of the sorts of projects it makes and the values that we have as a company, the stories we tell the people that we want to represent on screen. But what it does mean is that we have this fantastic resource across the studio group in terms of experience and talent and advice, and you know, we can get access to people that you might not normally readily be

able to get access to. NBCU is enormous and when you expand that out to include Universal Pictures and Focus and there is an incredible wealth of talent on the creative side, but also on the business side and on the strategic side. And so even though we still very much function as an independent Australian production company and we have incredible autonomy in what we do well.

we pay more for that? But the challenge if you're an Australian production company is that your shows, whether it's in direct partnership with a streamer like a Netflix or an Amazon, or whether it's something you know, they're very good acquirers of Australian content. I mean, if you go to Netflix, they're great at picking up a lot of Australian drama. But then that means that your drama is sitting side by side with something that had five and

ten times the budget. And so I'm kind of always very conscious of you make absolutely the best work that you can with the resources that you have, but then when suddenly you're slapped next to Bridgeton, it's hard not to be concerned about how people then might differentiate, say, oh, those Australian shows they don't look as polished as the big American ones or the UK ones. Maybe I'll lean that way, but I think those international partnerships are becoming

more important. It's a very long winded way of saying in terms of like putting together the sorts of budgets you need, I guess, to compete in that global space. It's not really enough to be making a show on a traditional budget model and expect that to really land, necessarily with an American audience or what have you. That said, you then do have breakouts which surprise everybody. I mean Safe Harbor, which was a series we did for SBS,

fantastic series. You know, it looks a billion dollars. I mean, you know, the value is very much on screen for that. Incredibly talented people all over it, and that ended up becoming a huge success for us with global sales and won an international Emmy Award. So you know, there are exceptions to the rule, but I think in general we are in a situation of spiraling inflation on budgets and it's getting harder and harder to put together the finance

for series. So yeah, international money is becoming more and more important.

quality that comes across with all of the work. Is there a way in making sure that there is that kind of brand element?

of scripted. We always talk about the fact that we never would make anything or we'd never take anything on to develop unless there was somebody in the creative team that was prepared to kind of sweat blood at two in the morning, someone is prepared to absolutely die in a ditch for that idea or that show, and if it doesn't pass that threshold, then we don't do it.

We would never take something off because for opportunistic reasons, you know, oh, hey, someone wants someone's got this idea and they've already got you know, a broadcast interested and lined up. If it doesn't really resonate for us. We would never do it just because we could. And I think that means you end up with a catalog like the one that we have, you know, the library of content.

And I think actors have come to realize that a lot of those really top line actors have come to see that there is no real differentiation in terms of the quality and ambition that you can have. I mean, TV series now go anywhere and do anything. They have budgets wildly exceeding film, and so you see that reflected everyone from Julia Roberts to George Clooney to Kate winslet you know, they're all doing television, and I think there's no kind of snobbishness there anymore. I think winning an

Emmy is as good as winning an Oscar. I think that's a really fantastic change, because there are so many stories that can't be told in nineteen minutes or are so truncated, particularly if you're looking at things like book adaptations or we're actually having that longer format to be able to tell stories just means you can bring so much more to it. And especially in a year where people were pretty much stuck at home and people weren't going to movie theaters anyway, and you had time to kill,

people could really engage with the longer format. So yeah, I mean, I think actors havenorned TV and way that they never were before. For sure.

for it. People want, people want to They're willing to commit to this content, you know, they and they're well.

are speaking to a much more niche market. That sort of mid range, mid budget film, I think is finding it much much harder to get an audience, and I think they're harder to finance. And so it feels an observation, It feels to me like that sort of premium TV has really taken the place of that middle range. So you've got the megabudget at the top, you've got the low budget at the bottom, and in the middle, there's television.

of it because it's so moving. But was that this very Australian story that Andrew created said in the Adelaide

suburbs resonated equally wherever it was performed. And I think it was something interesting too when Amazon, who our ultimate partners on it, when they read the scripts, they had exactly the same reaction to It's just this very universal story that I think is so right for the times as well, because it's about family and connection at a time when I think we've all been either separated from family, trying to get back together with family, trying to reconnect

and thinking about world and relationship in a different way. I think it's something that audiences are going to really love. And I mean, and that's why you know, Amanda Higgs, who's an incredible producer, who was the person that saw the play and you know went after those rights, you know, immediately thank goodness for her. But of course, you know, you don't get to work with legends like Jan Chapman and companies like Blossom if you don't have something pretty special.

So I don't know that that's so much of a tease other than to say I think it's going to be pretty exceptional, so people should be looking forward to it.

you know, we're looking after on the ground. But you know, there are so many other productions out here from Netflix and made up stories and that's a great thing for the industry because well there's pros and coms right. So on the one hand, you have the opportunity for Cruise one to be working at full capacity. Everybody's busy as

hell and it's and that's a powerful thing. And people are getting exposure to budgets that they might never have normally been able to work with, and you're working with technology that you have been able to work with. So there's a huge kind of learning and upskilling that goes

along with that. The downside, of course, being that competition for cruse and writers and directors has never been more ferocious, and people are just so busy that sometimes if you're trying to crew up a show, you literally just can't find the people. Not because you can't find the best people,

you actually just can't find anyone. I mean, we were, you know, on some of our shows you're kind of trying to get builders or people that have or electricians that have never worked in the industry before trying to draw their men just because you can't find the people that are normally doing those roles because there's just so much going on, and I think we're pretty much at industry capacity. But to your point, yes, it means suddenly

there's all of these people in town. There's people you're meeting and talking to and able to swap stories with, and I think it feels like a really great opportunity for everybody to kind of think differently about their ambition and who they're working with and finding other ways to collaborate and work because we're all scrambling for the same resources.

only ever heard them speaking with an American accent. Even when I was working at the ABC and I was traveling to LA to kind of try and create co productions and find partners so I can try and leverage the ABC budgets further, any agent you spoke to, anywhere you went, any buyer you went to, they were all very well aware of the Australian extraordinary talent that was coming out

of here. I mean, I think if you look at the top actors in the world, given our population size, we are disproportionately represented so I think in terms of Australians going out into the world and taking their talent to the world, that's kind of that's always been there. But I think it is really important that we are telling Australians stories as well and that they are traveling.

And I think so when you see shows like Mystery Road for example, which is you got a very uniquely distinctive Australian flavor, it's important to tell them that sort of story or Stateless even which you know is a very global story but actually something that's very particular to Australia's you know, engine program at the time. And for that to end up globally on Netflix, I think is a wonderful thing because it's helping to kind of inform the world about who we are and what we do

for better or worse. You know, it can't all be happy. But I think when you if you're doing something more generic, if you're doing sort of like an Australian procedural, you're always going to have a much harder time trying to cut through and get any kind of recognition internationally. Because you look at the US, for example, they do procedurals so well. They do them by you in huge numbers, shows like Law and Order and SPU and those kinds

of things. If we were making those sorts of shows, they're going to have a lot of trouble breaking out, I think outside. So it's only really those uniquely Australian stories that are going to have the best chance of traveling. So in a way, they kind of one creates the other. It's kind of like an infinite loop.

And I take your point about dramas often being quite sort of heavy and serious, but I do think there is much more diversity out there now in terms of what's being made and what people are looking for. And I think there's also been a shift though to in what people's expectations are of a drama. And I think, you know, it used to be, you know, a half hour is a comedy, and now it is a drama drama. And I think now you have half hours that are dramas and hours that are light sort of drama das.

And I think there's much more nuance in those categories and what audiences expect from those categories. And I think you can see that playing out and the sorts of shows that are coming through.

something like stateless. And she was absolutely tireless on that show in terms of casting and the creative and you know her, she was determined to make that show as good as it possibly could be, and you know, really backed it up. So I think, what did I learn? I mean, well, apart from being in the presence of greatness, I mean getting to watch her perform and being on set, particularly when she did that big song and dance number

early on in the series, was an incredible gift. But also I think just seeing just that tireless pursuit of excellence, never accepting second best, never accepting no, and just always pushing to get the best possible outcome. And Kate and I mean everyone on that show indeed did it. It wasn't certainly it wasn't just her, but certainly that is something that you know, I witnessed.

mean Beverly Hills, New York, Atlanta. I've I've seen more than that than I should probably admit. And I'm a fan. I mean, I think it's not you know, people can be people can sort of go, oh god, that reality sort of trash or you know, people people can be quite negative about it. But actually those shows are wildly successful and connect with audiences and provide form of escapism or entertainment that you know, sometimes that is just in a mixed diet of whatever TV you want to watch.

Everything can't be stateless, and sometimes watching a couple of housewives go at it over something like you know, trivial is the best way to turn off. And those shows are incredibly well made, and you know, there are incredibly skilled producers who are managing those They're not easy to make because in a way, and you know, and sometimes people think, oh, it's all fake and it's scripted, and it's not the case. You know, people are experiencing things

in real time and having real reactions. And I have a lot of respect for housewives. I think. I think it's an incredible and I got a wildly successful franchise. I can't wait for Melbourne this year. I think it's it's shaping up to be a cracker of a series, this one.

sort of direction you're intending to go in. But I mean, I think if you look at all of the international franchises, some of which are in you know, season thirteen and beyond, there is a bit of that kind of fluidity if people might step out for a few years, come back or come back as a friend, and so yeah, we'd certainly be open to that. As to who specifically, I

don't know, you'd have to sort of go through. There's been I mean, there's been some interesting characters over the years, but sure, you know, I think you never say never.

in the UK. And yeah, I take your point about that kind of depiction of younger people and opportunities for younger people to be in that space. So yeah, good idea.

you make the right show, the audience is there. And I think, you know, the americud market probably does it a bit more successfully than we do. At the moment, there's not a huge amount of programming coming out of Australia that I think is targeting that generation kids, yes, teens, yes, but you know, we don't do a lot of ya and we don't do a lot that's kind of speaking to them. So yeah, I think there's definitely work to

be done. But they're a tough market to crack at the moment because they've just got so many other options for how they spend their screen time, including making their own you know, like a lot of them are the start their own they're the stars of their own kind of screen creations, So you know, how do you get Kate Planchette to keep to compete with someone who's watching themselves.

is made and all reality in fact. So you'd see this if you watch Kardashians or any of those shows where you're watching you know, sequences of life or you know things that have played out, and then you have somebody's direct to camera interview where they're talking as though it's in real time, but obviously that's filmed at a different time, and so often you would need to show you have to show Pete to remind them of like four months ago this moment was happening, what we're thinking,

So then somebody is having to speak to that in

their direct camera. But what the Housewives franchise globally have done, is that they generally save up showing everybody the episodes until just before the reunion, so that actually what happens is those reunion specials, which you know for Beverly Hills and New York Rum, you know, they're three partners, and that's because all of the women watched the whole show for the first time just before, so suddenly they see what everybody's been saying in their direct cameras or things

that maybe they were saying behind their back. So you said one thing to me here and then you said something else there, and so obviously what that does is mean that by the time everyone's sitting, you know, in they're dressed in the nines at the reunion, there are some raw wounds that maybe have been reopened, and so it's an opportunity for everybody that's thrashed that out there.

the conversation. And I want to say thank you for that.