It's in the news today, but it was actually on TV Reload, the podcast past to deep that line. Welcome back, guys to TV Reload. My name is Benjamin Norris and this is your podcast to get all the inside goss or the popular TV shows you may be watching from around the world. Undeniably, our TV sets are a major part of our home entertainment, and yet very little is
known about how our favorite shows get made. So each episode, I've been finding guests that want to dive just that little bit deeper into the shows they are currently making, so that you can hear all their exclusive stories and gain access to the biggest names in television. I want to thank you for downloading or subscribing to this podcast however you found it. I love hearing your feedback, so make sure you leave a review or a comment on
your chosen podcast platform. This chat, I am joined by Gretel Vella, who is a film television theater writer and is the mastermind behind the latest Stan original series, Totally
Completely Fine. The series drops on stand Australia this week and the show is a little interesting and we will get into that straight away in the podcast, but the series is inspired by true events It is a six part dark comedy series led by Thomasin mackenzie, who you would know from the popular film Jojo Rabbit, and it explores the complexities of grief, the power of friendship, and
the ways our sadness can unite us. The series examines family legacy and ultimately ask the question how many lives do we have to save before we can save ourselves. I want to pre warn you this conversation does include a lot of discussion around suicide and suicide prevention. However, as the show is a comedy drama, I want you to know that this show is not completely gazumped by
the bleak subject matter and is definitely worth watching. I will ask Gretel about the origins of the story and how much of it is based on real life events. We will talk about the shows in which Gretel may have been inspired by. When you see the hero house that's in the series straight away, you'll get Love my Way vibes, and I will find out if it was the same house or if that show had influenced her.
Gretel will also be talking about the casting of Thomasin and why the international actress said yes to being a part of this series, Plus we will get plenty of exclusives from behind the scenes of Totally Completely Fine, which you can now view on Stan Australia. Anyway, let's bring Gretel into the podcast, and I really hope you enjoy this episode. Hi, Gretel, how are you?
I'm very good, Thank you?
How are you well? I'm very excited to be talking to you about this show because I had heard about this series a while back, and I have been really interested in how you were going to weave this story together.
I think, look, comedy is something that I always use in my work to tackle subjects that are really hard, and I actually think that this show probably wouldn't work if it were a straight drama. I think it tackles some really heavy ideas, but I think we cushion it in such a way that it's going to be hopefully fun also for the audience.
I kept thinking while I was watching this, this could very easily be a straight drama. But then I kept thinking about if I didn't have the comedy, would it be a little bit too hectic for me as a watch. I don't know, are you surprised to hear me talking about that?
I mean, we talked a lot about the tone and what was funny and what wasn't, And I guess we agreed on what was and what wasn't when we first started, and then we had a whole bunch of different suicide prevention consultation bodies come through and psychologists and a lot of people read the scripts, and so I think by the end we've come to something that is funny in a kind of healthy and good way.
I mean, grief and loss is something that everyone goes through, so I mean it's very accessible to a lot of people. But what made you want to explore this territory?
Mental illness is something I've kind of had anxiety depression since I was about fourteen, so it's always kind of been in my work, but I guess I wanted to explore it in a deeper way. I kind of came to the idea jeering lockdown and I actually had a really weird experience where I was actually witnessed to two suicide attempts within the space of a week from a distance.
But on the second one, my Uber driver pulled over and said to me, every day past this site, and every day there is someone else here trying to do this, so I kind of started to research guardians of places that people went to attempt suicide, and I just started to wonder what it would look like if someone who had anxiety and depression themselves was actually one of these guardians, and how would that be funny and how would that
be sad? But I guess also what superpowers would that person have having walked a mile in these people's shoes, And so that's kind of how I came to the idea.
I remember first reading that it's inspired on true events, you know, like how much of this story actually did occur? And I wanted to know more about that from you, like with those situations that you went through personally, and then sort of where you took it to with the writer's room. I guess.
I guess the show is inspired by a whole bunch of different guardians. I kind of did my research on a few different people who looked after these places, and I guess Vivian's kind of form of anxiety is kind of quite similar to mine and a few of the people that I know. But I guess beyond the pilot, it's quite a fictionalized story that has been invented by us and it's kind of Viv's growth journey, and it's
also her brother's growth journey. I think all of these three siblings are kind of dealing with the loss of their parents, and Vivian's is in more of an outward, visceral way, and I guess the brothers think that they've dealt with it as well, but as we go on, we see that they kind of start to unravel too. Well.
There's a lot to be proud of in this series, and I felt like you broke a lot of ground
in telling stories about siblings. You know, we often see siblings on television and they sort of get played off a certain way where I just kept thinking, Oh, I mean, I'm in a three as in I've got half siblings as well, and I just was like, oh my god, Like the dynamics between these three people, it's so it was so real because at one point you kind of feel like you're the sensible one and the other two are crazy, and then you become the crazy one, and
that's really well depicted I think in this series.
Yes, that was kind of a response that I got initial to the scripts, and it was actually really interesting. Initially they were all women and then I kind of gave it to my producers and they were like, we actually think it would be interesting if you gender flipped the brothers, but you didn't really do anything beyond flipping the gender. So I think they're also male characters that you maybe won't see, you haven't seen on the screens
a lot before, which I'm really proud of. But yes, I am from A three three siblings as well, and it's very much modeled on that dynamic where also the kind of alliances start to change as the show goes on.
Yeah, it's the I think you've managed to capture, you know, the love of the sibling, the jealousy and the silly things that we have not let go of from the past.
Totally, and how you can love them but also hate them for the same time.
No one can say anything bad about my siblings ever. I literally can't hear it. I will never hear about it, and yet I will be the first person to be sitting there just saying, oh my god, I can't believe how they get through their life.
You know, as soon as your partner tries to ho in, you're like, no, no, that's not no, no, you.
Cannot say a goddamn word. Sit tight. You're just there to listen, just not and agree. You know, I have to ask you about other shows that might have influenced your creative process, because I certainly was watching this and thinking I could feel some tones from shows that we've seen, particularly in Australia. Were you influenced by other scripted dramas that have been made in this country?
I actually look, most of my tonal references were quite international in the flavor, and that was kind of my goal, was to I was particularly inspired by things like Fleeback and I May Destroy You, things that kind of dealt with really hard topics, but they kind of walked that line between comedy and drama. And it was kind of my goal to make a show that was really distinctly Australian but could sit alongside those shows, as you know, of equal worth, and that looked as visually interesting.
I mean Love my Way for me, this is going to be a funny story. Did you ever watch Love My Way?
Oh? Yes, Love My Way was one of our references, particularly the Hero House.
Yes, okay, yeah, so that Hero House. That's not the same house though from Love My Way? Is it?
No? I think we did look at the Love my Way house, but we went with something different.
But it still had some was there sets or anything. I just remember the bedroom looked a lot like Frankie's bedroom Claudia Carvin's bedroom in that house. Maybe the house has just looked quite similar, you know.
Yeah, no, definitely not Love my Way. We really wanted to, but we thought people will probably go they'd used to Love my White House.
Haha. But you want to have that sort of feeling because you know what's really funny about that show is Love My Way is written basically to be a very serious drama without comedy. But I think if that show as being quite comical. And I'll tell you one day we had, like you know, when you have a group of friends over to watch YouTube of your favorite clips
and funny comedians and things like that. I started bringing up these clips from Love my Way that were really dark, and I was laughing, thinking, oh my god, it's hilarious, and everyone's like, Ben, this is not really funny. This is and I'm like, oh, I find dark subject matter to be quite comical. And I think that's why when while watching your show, I just found myself laughing so easily in a good way.
And do you think you were laughing at things that were intended to be jokes or you just have a taste that's a little darker than other people.
I've always liked black comedies. I don't know there's something wrong with me. I mean, I need to go back to my therapist on that. But I think that if people are listening to this too and they love dark comedy, they're going to just eat this with a spoon.
Yes, And I do feel like it's kind of a tonal journey. I think it does definitely get a little bit darker as it goes on.
Sometimes I'm watching things and I'm laughing, and I think, am I the only person that's going to laugh at this? And when we don't watch things in a big theater with everyone else, we don't get that verification that it's okay to laugh. But I certainly, yeah, I definitely found this to be quite funny. But you know, we know the best way to deal with the darkest emotions that
we have is to talk about them. Do you think that this show will help people have more open conversations about maybe their personal struggles or their dark things that are happening in their lives.
I really hope. So I think that that was like my number one intention. I think that the way that we depict mental illness on screens is still quite surface level or tropy, and I think that this really delves into it in a really big way. And Yeah, my biggest intention was that you get to the end of it and you feel like you can talk to someone who you suspect might not be in a great place, or you can talk to other people about your experiences.
I think most of the suicide prevention training we had said to us that if you start the conversation and you show the person that you're not afraid, it immediately kind of takes away all the tension in fear than anyone feels, and people are more inclined to get help.
Yeah, it's quite interesting, you know. I was asked to do a charity once and I turned up and the charity was quite I don't want to say what it is, but it was quite a difficult subject matter. And I turned up and they had to do like a photo and they asked me to do this photo where they asked me to sort of do this symbol that they all do for this particular charity. And I smiled while I was doing it, and they said to me, oh no,
maybe don't smile. And it was funny because they then use the photo of me smiling and it had the most amount of traction, It had the most amount of interaction of people feeling comfortable to talk about it. And I thought that is a really interesting way of getting people to have a conversation when the subject matter is quite dark, is to it doesn't have to be exactly how you think the tone has to be, do you know what I mean? Like it needs to be inviting to have a good conversation.
And I mean I think people I was, certainly before I started the consultation experience, really scared to well. I just didn't know what to do in those situations. And I think a lot of people think that if they bring it up there, they'll say the wrong thing or
they'll trigger the person. And I mean, we did a lot of training with Living Works, and it's actually in episode two, vivd some training herself on suicide prevention, and in this montage, the number one thing I want to people to take away is you can ask someone are you thinking about suicide? You just directly ask them if you suspect someone is suffering, And I can't believe how effective that phrase is. It immediately removes the tension people will talk to you about it.
Isn't that strange? I mean, it's just strange. It seems like that's a weird thing to.
Save it, you know, even weird.
And also after COVID than ever we're all acting and maybe I should speak on my own behalf. We're all acting way weirder than we ever did before. We've got way more internalized emotion than you realize because we got I mean, I'm from Melbourne, so we got very locked down. And then what you really need for people to ask you is those really bold questions. You know, are you okay?
And you know, are you thinking about suicide? Are you worried that people might turn away from this series being thinking it's a bit bleak.
Potentially that's a worry. But hopefully if people even just watch a little bit of the pilot, they'll see that it's so much all and just go about suicide. It is also a body comedy, a family drama that has some real lass in there, and so I think people will actually really enjoy it. And the pilot's quite silly and fun. So I think that feel like it.
And I also relate to the underdog character. You know, anyone that's really flawed, anyone that's almost awful, like it's funny, I really relate to them, and like Vivian, to me, I just was like, I'm relating so hard to this person. What sort of inspiration did you have for this person? I mean, I don't think we've ever seen anyone like Vivian before.
I think it was really important to me because I think when we depict mental illness, often the journeys are quite linear, and someone will have a conversation with someone or something will happen to them and they'll be like, I feel better, I am healed now. But I think Vivian's journey, I mean you've watched it, is so up and down, and you know, even when we get to the end, she's not a perfect person or healed by
any means. But I think the show is saying that even if you're mess as most of the characters are, you still deserve to be there. And I think Tom thomasin McKenzie, who plays Vivian, I think it would be really easy to kind of play Vivian one note that is, you know, I'm a really selfish person who doesn't care about anyone else. But I think the thing about Viv is that she cares so deeply, and I think that's
why she stuffs up so much. And she has such a warmth and wit underneath that, I think, But I think she avoids connecting with other people because she feels like she doesn't deserve to. And Tom straight away understood all of those things about her, and I think that an audience, you watch it and you just go I can see all of that underneath. I know you want to be better, and so I kind of love you for that.
As an actress, Thomasin is just brilliant in this like and it would be such a hard role to try and undertake, you know, and to try and navigate throughout sort of making these words come on screen. You know, how did you come across her? I mean, how did you get her interested in this project?
We got really lucky that she'd been I mean, she was traveling a lot and doing a lot of film and television. I think she was just back in New Zealand for a few months, and I think she was looking for a TV project if it was the right thing, and we sent her the first few scripts and she really liked them and really responded to Vivian, And so then we got on the phone and had a conversation and as I said, she just understood her and understood
her want to do better. And I think there was just kind of myself, our director, Lucy Gaffi and Tom all really connected on that and this character, and she wanted to do it. I was so grateful to her.
Do you think that we're able to tell stories that can be a little bit more niche these days? You know now that streaming services like stan Australia around. You know, are you as a creator able to quite you know, dream big and look outside of the constructs of what we used to see on television on our free away networks?
Oh? One hundred percent. I definitely feel like things are changing. And I've definitely had this show, I mean different iterations kind of in my back pocket for a while, and I feel like now people are so much more open to things like that, and it's really interesting. Other ideas that I've had, You can get laughed out of rooms. Years ago, I would get laughed out of rooms, and
now people are like yeah, that sounds great. I think we're changing, and particularly in Australia, I think there's a whole host of shows that are about to be released that are really just changing the game and what we see ourselves as capable of doing.
But did you grow up liking flawed characters? I don't know if this is a strange question to ask you, because I did, Like, I think of so many different shows. I mean even I remember The Gray's Anatomy has now been on television for like a hundred years, but I remember when Meredith Gray was on that show to start with, I was like, you're awful, but I love you. Do you know what I mean?
I mean, I don't think I write any characters that are on flawed. I'm really interested in outcasts and lonely people, and I think you can make people these days as unlikable as you want, as long as you show the audience they're wound and why they're like that. I think that, and they're really interesting stories to tell.
Is there a point where characters can be too dark?
You know?
Is there a tipping point which you guys might have had in the writer's room where you were like, oh no, hang on a sec that might turn people away.
I mean, definitely, but I think the kind of the barometer for that in every show is different. I think that in this show, all the characters are actually quite warm, and so Viv really had to exist in that world and kind of if she went too far, I was often trying to protect her. But I think if we look at shows like White Lotus, for example, those characters are all us is a shit.
I'm They're awful, horrible, people can stop watching them.
Yes, I feel like our tolerance level for that kind of thing is really increasing.
It's interesting. I was talking only just recently, and it was in one of the offcuts of the podcast, and so I didn't get to use it. But when they were making Muriel's wedding, Muriel was a big talking point. They shot it where she was more awful than what we got to see in the final edit, and so when they were doing the editing process they pulled back. They actually cut very small clips out of that story to make sure that audiences in nineteen ninety four didn't
hate her. And I thought that was really interesting.
Yeah, Oh my goodness, I would love to see that other cut.
Yeah, Joe Bilcock, I think would be the person to ask, who's an editor. But yeah, and she's got a documentary that's out of people are listening to this. I think it's dancing in the edit. Might have got that wrong, but she does openly talk about having to edit around Muriel and being concerned that audiences might turn away because she made terrible decisions and they thought that people might be polarized by her.
Yeah, it's really difficult. There really is a balance that you need to find. But I think, yeah, it's show dependent.
Yeah, very true. I just was wondering whether or not you guys were sitting there going, oh, look, we want to do this with her, and they'd be like, oh, we've already done this, so we kind of, you know, have to try and balance it out.
Yes, I'm trying to think of specific instances, but there were definitely well, I was about to give away a huge spoiler, there were definitely additions to things that she did that we thought we should full back for those reasons.
For sure, do you have a favorite scene? You know? That's what I was wanting to ask you the most out of all of these questions I've asking you, because there are so many great moments in this show and for you finally getting to see it realized and see it just ready before you know, audiences can digest it. You know when you think about it, is there a scene that you go, wow? I'm just this is what summarizes the show.
Am I allowed to pick two?
Yeah, go for it. Pick three. As long as I can stalk to you for the rest of my life, keep telling me everything.
Okay. So there's a scene in the pilot where Vivian takes out the bins. I'm not sure am I allowed to give away spoilers on this? I think it's probably fine. Vivian has a coping mechanism where she takes out bins and then later on she shares that with someone else who is in crisis, and it's kind of a grounding technique that she uses to come back into the moment. And that was actually something that we took from one of the consultants that came into the room with us.
This person was talking about when they had very active suicidal ideation, they needed a small grounding practice to get back into their own body and back into the present. And I just felt like it really kind of summarized what the show was trying to do. It was kind of these huge life changing moments juxtaposed with something so small and kind of ridiculous, and I think it plays really beautifully in the show. My second would be episode three.
There is a particular how would I describe it, two of our characters get really sick and vomit after a night of drinking. But it is kind of this really earsty scene between them where kind of starting to fall in love or like each other in amongst both of them vomiting. And I think that too, really brilliantly summarizes the show. I was really fun to shoot and to plot in the room.
Vomit to me can be very hard. I'm a sympathetic spewer, so anytime this spew I'm like, well, but I have to circle back on the first one. And I think we all have stuff in our lives that we use and we do go back to. I know that if I do something really stupid in my life, I've worked out over time that I will come home and I will miss Machine my house. This might sound really Mistachine, you remember those ads, but I will just clean to just you know, I've done something stupid, and it's a
real reset for me. To feel better about myself. I'm like, it's okay that I did that because my house is tidy. So I think we all have those sort of resets in our minds, like taking the bins out.
Oh my god, I love the mister Sheining. I'm going to steal out for season two.
If I watched season two and mister Sheen's in there, I want the wrong. I owe you some money, I promise, not at all, not at all. It's actually cry it quite funny. I retold a story to a friend of mine from my best friend, just to an acquaintance. And then for some reason that friend became an author and she wrote a book anyway that she sent a copy of the book to my best friend, even though they didn't really know each other, and I was like, oh my god, why have you sent this book is so
random to my friend Carrie. And then my friend Carry was reading it on a plane to Los Angeles and there was like a whole story in there that was completely ripped from her life. She was the person I retold, like, I'll quickly tell you this really quickly. So my best
friend she has to do presentations a lot. She's an engineer, so an engineer not typically likes to talk in front of people, so her anxiety felt that she would always she always worried when she'd start to talk in front of people her head would roll off, and so she'd start to like feel really like loose in the head, and she'd be like, Oh my god, what happens in
my head while I'm talking? And it became a real paranoia. Anyway, my friend Cassie, Cassie Lane, she stole that story and used it in her book, and the character had that situation where she would get anxious and think her head was going to roll on.
Oh my god, and that's a very distinct.
Yeah, And I didn't know that I told this story. So she was on the plane, she was like, why the fuck is this Cassie Lane sent me this book, and why is my story in this book?
You know? Oh my god? Was she mad at you? Or was she like, it's.
Fine, she's gonna be upset about that. She would have left me years ago.
Okay, Oh my god, that is that. The head rolling is so great? I think, yeah, I think that's gonna be what's great about the show. People will watch it and be like, I think that when you're experiencing these things are alone. You're like, this is so unique to me. No one else has these strange things that they do, and we all have something.
And we all do and we all do, and you do summarize that so well. You know, just before I let you go, ask everyone this question on the podcast, what's something from behind the scenes, something that you know we we won't see as an audience that we might appreciate as a bit of a behind the scenes tidbit from making this series.
Well, we had there is a Brolga in the show, and we had kind of one day. Her name I think was Hulga the Brolger, and she was kind of this and initially it was actually written as a bush turkey, but they're very protected. I didn't know this, so we had to get this vulgarim and she was very temperamental. Would only we thought that maybe she could do more than she could and she ate like basically was just
corn motivated. But they were like, to us, there's only she can only eat a cup of corn and then she will be full and then she will no longer have any motivation to do anything. All of the scenes that you see, we I think we may be shot in like a couple of hours with this Brolga. Who but I mean, she looks stunning in the show, but that was just something very funny. And I think in all of the seeds she's just eating the corn very obviously.
But if you read the scripts, they're like, and then the Brolga, we'll look at her and make a noise and I was very specific, but look, she's still great.
I thought the Broga was amazing. There's the one scene where that she's running outside the house and the Broger does something that interacted with her with Vivian very well. Now I can't remember what which scene that was.
She like box at her at one point. We did get some great don't get me wrong. She's beautiful, and I mean, who can train a Brolger. What they could do with her was insane. But our poor director Lucy was like, can she walk across this.
Draft or not? Mind you, I can't. I can't do a goddamn thing. After I've been fed, once I've had my dinner, I'm done for the day. I'm like, the only thing I'm doing is going to bed. So I'm with the Broger.
I know, I like, I didn't blame her good on her. It was very funny. And then I think, like she had a hotel room. At the end of the day, she was really great. She had a priority set.
Sounds amazing. That's the Broga goes back to the other brog of friends and gets to gloat about it. I have got to stay in this beautiful Hilton hotel. Actually, just another question I was going to ask you, which I've been thinking about this week, was when I first heard about the production. I remember hearing that it was named something different. Was it called The Great or the Brave or it was called The Jump the Jump?
But yes, we felt as though it just didn't feel right as our title, and I think we needed something a little bit gentler. So we think totally completely and I think totally completely fine actually speaks to the kind of thesis of the show in a better way. It's kind of a bunch of people who are really masking how they're feeling, and it kind of all it comes
to the surface at the end. And kind of a pattern we had with all our consultants, particularly the psychologist we spoke to, is that when people normally sit down for therapy, it's like, how are you and they're like, I am so fine, I'm really good, and then it all come out lowstat.
I kind of begin to tell you how many times I've accidentally said totally completely fine. I'm totally completely fine in emails in conversation over the last week since I saw the show. So it's in the vernacular for me. Now.
That's good because I always get on these calls and things if people are like they accidentally call it everything everywhere, all at once, and I'm like, no, fine.
You can call it whatever. You're like, it's totally completely fine, Rotell. I am obsessed with you. I think i'd love to spend a day in your head. I'd love to have a drink while I was there, because I think you've got some amazing storytelling and some really interesting perspectives. And I can't wait to see what other shows you work on after this, and I can't wait for people to watch this series.
Oh, thank you so much for watching it and for taking the time to chat. I hope other people like it. I'm really excited.
Thank you so much for the chat. I hope people because because I just think my biggest concern with this series is people might see it. I mean to me, I'm drawn to it for that reason. But even when I was telling people about it, they're like, oh, no, that might be a little bit too dark for me,
and I'm like, no, it's not. And then with all the questioning that I had for you, you know, while we're talking about it today, I wanted to make sure that it's a fun chat, you know what I mean, Like, we're not getting because we are unpacking things that are totally quite dark, but I want people to see the comedy in it. So hopefully we reflected that in our unpacking life.
Thank you so much, Because I think as we've been talking about what we're going to say in interviews and things, I'm like, how can I really get across that people aren't just going to be assaulted with darkness for six hours of television because you just can't do that.
It's no.
I think it's it is so much more than a show about suicide. You kind of get to the end and you're like, I mean, that was great, but there's more there.
Because that is the center point. It's interesting that you finish the series. It's so interesting that you finish it and it's not what you're thinking about. You know, you've unpacked it and you've digested it and you've struggled with it. But I have more walked away with my feelings about those three characters and that sibling relationship and how great that seemed to come together, and that seems to be more what stays with me and the fun.
That's how you were thinking about the siblings when it finished.
Yes, that's all I could think about was these siblings that couldn't And I rang my brother who's older than me, and we fight like cats and dogs, but we also, you know, are each other's favorite person at the same time. You know, obviously very strange relationship. But yeah, and I just thought, wow that I said to him, when this show comes out, you've got to watch it, because I want to know if you can see the similarities in our relationship.
That means a lot that you relate to that it was. It was interesting. It was initially a half hour offering, and then the broadcasters were like, we think it makes more sense at commercial hour, and so that sibling story that was initially really small became such a bigger thing. And I think the show is so much better for that.
Oh, it's so rich for it it's so rich for it. I think there'll be a lot of people will be thinking about that. I'm anyone that's got a sibling. We'll read into all of that stuff which we talked about in the podcast. You know, we talk about you know that love, the jealousy, and all the things you haven't left behind, you know what I mean?
Yeah, totally.
Anyway, I know that you're a very busy person, so I'm going to let you go, and I just want to say thank you so much for such a fun chat. And I really hope that you have a great time with this series and talking about it with lots of people, And.
Thank you so much. You were the best to talk to. I was nervous, so thank you.