It's in the news today, but it was actually on TV Reload the podcast last week. Am I how would I describe a television set, oh Man.
From a headline grabbing point of view, the hack producer me says one hundred percent put him in.
Welcome back guys to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris and on this podcast I go behind the scenes with the biggest players in television.
Yeah, great questions. The show's about the game. There's a lot of great television out there in Australia.
But I've also got to go behind the scenes with writers. The truth is, when I started writing it, it wasn't had nothing to do with the news and casting agents they.
Know from a casting point of view what they need.
And editors because that's what we do as editors where storytellers them. Not to forget some incredible executive producers who are making some of the best TV content in Australia. I have been on the program since the beginning and it's kind of in my DNA. So thanks for joining me each week and I hope the podcast continues to give you real insight into the magic of te Today. On the podcast, I have internationally acclaimed TV producer Sally Woodgate.
Sally's here to promote her latest project, Ragdoll, which will premiere on Binge in Australia today. Ragdoll is an internationally co produced thriller series based upon the novel of the same name by Daniel Cole. The series follows the murder of six people who have been dismembered and sewn together in the shape of a grotesque body called the rag Doll. As the leading characters begin to investigate, the killer begins to taunt them. And I've seen the first two episodes
and it's really something to see to be believed. The series has a unique ability to make you laugh and be terrified at the same time, and at times you feel like you're watching Signs of the Lambs. But then there's a comedic undertone that contrasts that whole feel, and the series is almost classified as a comedy. Today, Sally and I will unpack the new series with some exclusive behind the scenes stories that will leave you reaching for
a Binge subscription. Sally has teamed up again with Freddie Seborne and you would know their work on Killing Eve, which became an internationally celebrated hit series which the world fell in love with. However, let's get started with today's episode. I'd like to welcome producer Sally Wouldgate to this week's TV reload.
We were looking for a long time for a crime story.
Legg belongs to a blackmaile.
Because crime police genre, you know, it is universally popularly great. I'm you an East Asian female. I think that people like to put the jigsaw together and.
A Crockasian male head.
I think that life is, you know, in its darkest moments, can also be very sort of blackly comic.
It's not the strangest thing I've ever seen top ten seven.
Essentially, it's the sort of relationship drama wrapped up in a macab killer story.
Hi, Sally, how are you?
I'm very well? Thank you? How are you?
I'm really well? I mean, congratulations on the buzz of rag Doll. What an exciting project to come off the back of your work on Killing Eve, which was a global success. How do you feel at the moment before people have seen it.
Just a little bit exhausted.
So we had We've got a very very tight post production schedule and we're still post producing the whole show. So we're just in the moment, we're not I haven't even started to engage with the thought that people might watch it, so it is a bit scary.
How did this go, Like after working on a project like Killing Eve, which was consumed by people all over the world and just loved to Killing Eve open doors for you.
I suppose what it did is created a relationship with AMC and Killing Eve, which is a really sort of easy one and a really collaborative one. So they read Rag Doll and we very quickly went into pre production on it. So I think that that was the difference, is there was no sort of getting to know you, can we trust you what you like in production, so that was incredibly useful and AMC are brilliant partners, so I think that's probably what made the difference.
Well we'll talk about them a little bit more actually, because they'll come up again. But the series follows the murder of six people who have been dismembered and sewn into the shape of a grotesque body, which is called the rag Doll, which the protagonists, i'd say, and you know, the detectives begin to investigate this killer, you know, who's taunting them. How would you describe the themes of this film.
Well the themes that the themes are huge.
Actually the themes really are around sort of shame, secrecy, a sense of self because, like you said, the rag Doll Killer, as he or she comes to be known, is taunting one of our main protagonists. So our main protagonists are US three police detectives, so and I can never remember what their titles are ' I know them
as Rose, Baxter, and Edmunds. And Rose investigated a crime called the cremation Killer, and he knew who the perpetrator was, but he couldn't get them, and so he cut corn doing his investigation, and as a result, the cremation Killer was released and went on to kill again. But when the cremation Killer was acquitted in court, Rose jumped over the barriers and sort of beat him very very badly. So Rose ended up in a psychiatric unit, and so various deals were made. That means the rag Doll Killer
is essentially taunting Rose. And so the whole thing becomes about, you know, what is justice? At what point can you be honest with yourself? At what point can you be honest with your colleagues? At what point can you be honest with those people close to you about both what you have done but also your love for them and how much you care for them. So I think essentially it's the sort of relationship drama wrapped up in a macabre killer story, which.
I think sounds amazing. So I don't know what that says about me. I don't know what it says about you.
You know, it's essentially about six six people who've been killed in that. Yeah, that's you know, it's not great, is it? But it is I hope it's like massively entertaining. And we are quite you know, there is a lot of dark wit in there, but we are very you know, we're very serious about human relationships and you know, in secrecy and honesty and you know, and I hope that that sort of emotional charge comes through in the show.
It's interesting in that regard. You know, based on the book, which is authored by Daniel Cole, How did this project come across your desk?
Well, we SID is actually a really small company. There's about ten of us, and we were looking for a long time for a crime story because crime police genre, you know, it is universally popular, and it felt very, very odd that we didn't have one on our plate.
So Sam Simon's who's one of our script executives and a real crime novel afficionado, trolled loads and those you know, back catalogs and new books that were coming out, and so actually then Sam read Ragged Book and just fell found it incredibly entertaining and loved the notion of a sort of ticking clock and the really inventive ways of the kills and you know, and the central relationship between
Rose and Baxter. And but we knew that we had to pair that up with a writer who had had a very sort of distinctive voice, and Freddie coming from the world of sort of comedy. We'd met him actually on another project and then he wrote an episode of Killing Eve and we realized that he's, like Freddie, big brain, and that you needed a big brain to get around, you know, the complications of the plot, but also to really sort of tether it to you know, very real
feeling human emotions. So that's really how it came about. So we got books, Sam found the book, we w optioned the book, We put Freddie together with it, and we developed the scripts with him, and then we set it up with UK TV and AMC well this.
Stuff is, you know what people want to watch right now. It's it's kind of there's this huge surge of interest in true crime. You know, why do you think the true crime has become so popular in twenty twenty one.
I think true crime has always been really popular, And I think what happens is, you know, a few true crime things come out broadcast and see how popular they are. They then go for more true crime, So it just becomes a sort of self you know, everything goes in waves, and you know, I've been around long enough to sort of see true stories be incredibly popular, and then they weighe and you know, fantasy comes back and a sense of escapism becomes the popular theme, and then real life
comes back again. I think that there is a sense that I think that people want to explore stories that they've heard on the news, and they want to get more background to it, and I think, sort of deep down it's probably about trying to understand what's behind these cases as a way of sort of controlling them and
making them feel less scary, I think. But at the same time, there is you know, what I don't like to think is that there is a sense that there is entertainment in true crimes, which is another reason why we wanted to work on the rag Doll, because it's not true. It's not a true crime. It actually it's very heightened. It leans into the it leans into the long history of sort of grang guenole. And it's not about sort of a viscerated dead women, which I think so many pieces are.
It's not about lost children.
It's really a sort of a you know, it's a big I hope it's a sort of big, entertaining, sort of rollicking drama.
With COVID as well. I think, you know, we like to be included in things in different ways. And I think that sometimes a crime or a mystery or something to be solved in twenty twenty one when they're done well, makes us feel included, like we get to solve it as well, you know what I mean. Yeah, I think that that is an inclusion.
Yeah.
I think that people like to put the jigsaw together of it. And I think that we naturally, you know, we're pattern formers, and so anything that's sort of that gives you that sense of satisfaction of putting the puzzle together, It is a really good thing, particularly when you know the world is, you know, so hard to fathom, you know, if there's a bit of security managing to put the puzzle together and then coming out with the answer.
I know I was like that with Mayor of Eastown. And it also gave me a community to be a part of as well, because I was texting my friends and my mom and my brother and my sister, and I think it's this person. And I think that that sometimes can be really powerful with Telly because now we're telling these stories over a period of time. It's not a film. You know, you're like, oh, I watched that,
and then I can now interact with people. I think that has become really amazing with the long form of television.
Absolutely and being part of a gang, and you know, when we've been so isolated to have that connectivity with other people who are having a shared experience. So you know, it was actually Shit's Creek got me through lockdown, and that was you know, and a few of us were all watching it at the same point, and you know, somebody got to the end of it before we did and said, oh my god, I can't you know, I've just been sobbing, And you know, there was a real
sense of connectivity. And another show that we make all the Daryl's, but you know, Became had a resurgence during lockdown, and I think that was a similar thing. There was a sense of sort of comfort to it, but people having a shared experience.
What about your immediate relationship with this particular source material? As you know, it is pretty grim, but it also has that real sense of humor. I mean, is that something that you kind of connected to personally? Is that? Yeah? And you're a little bit grim with a sense of humor, is what I'm saying.
Yes, yeah, yes, yeah, very much. So. I am quite grim, and I hope really dark things. You know.
I think that life is, you know, in its darkest moments, can also be very sort of blackly comic. And I don't know whether it's the same restrict I think it probably is.
But I was brought up.
With my grandparents that only watched the ABC, which is like the BBC for you. I don't know if you've.
Been okay, well there you go.
My influences and I talked about this just the other day with my brother about my influences with Telly, and I will grow up with English humor, so I'm drawn to black comedies. And I remember taking a really good friend of mine to see a black comedy and when I was like seventeen or eighteen, and they looked at me like I was mad, and I was like, that's the best movie ever, you know, yeah, yeah.
Did you watch them? Were what were your favorites?
Well, that particular film that I took my friend to was in nineteen ninety seven to see Nicole Kidmans To Die For And that film is brilliant, Like, you know, she just seemed to get that humor. Yeah. I think that a lot of people from Australia, because of our relationship with England, we lean into that humor more than the Americans.
You know, exactly in the irreverence of it, and some of it I think is also about control. It's like if I can laugh at it, it's not going to do me down. You know, There's there's a degree of that about it.
I just you know, what I think is really bizarre is the relationship and the similarities in a way of fear and being thrilled to actually being entertained and laughing. And I think that that is a confluence for me with the content that I enjoy it.
I think you're right.
Yeah, you know, I think it does have a It has a sort of physical effect on you, doesn't it.
Yeah. Well, I enjoy being scared as much as I enjoy laughing, and I think that, Yeah, even Faulty Towers in Life of Brian or a lot of those shows. I loved all of that sort of humor. But I enjoy the yeah, the laughing as much as I like being scared.
Yeah.
Actually, and actually I was talking to somebody yesterday about shows on the UK. It was probably it's quite a long time they called Cracker that Jimmy mcgovernn created, which was about a psychologist who worked with the police, and it was very very dark, but also at the same time it had amazing characters and brilliant dark humor in that too, and that's sort of the marriage of the two.
It actually made it feel a little bit more real because life, you know, people do laugh at the groomer's moments that you know, life isn't just all sometimes I think it's particularly some crime drumas just take themselves a little bit too seriously, and you know, it's great to have sort of dark wit come through. For me, that's my that's my personal taste.
I know, if they take themselves too seriously, they kind of have more of a capacity to fall down, you know, if you're taking it to that line and you're trying to be too serious. I mean, that's sometimes where you know people are laughing at it for the wrong reasons, do you know what I mean?
Yes, Well, I hope that isn't the case with this.
I wondered whether you personally had like an Aha moment with this material and as you were planning it that this was going to work.
Well, really, I really do hope so, And I think it's I just love Freddy's scripts. They're just so clever, and it's you know, there are various stages when you're sort of testing the materials. So of course you're testing the material when you read it yourself, when you have other people within your team read it, when you send it out for broadcasters to pick it up. And then the biggest thing comes for us. There's another show that
we're developing at the moment. Is when you start to do auditions and when you start to send scripts out to actors, and it's when their agents respond to the material and the actors respond to the material and they really want to play those parts, and they think that it feels incredibly fresh because of course agents are reading so many scripts that people are trying to cast, so that becomes for us, it becomes the sort of first
sense of oh, yeah, that okay, that's great. Everybody else thinks these scripts are good, and beyond that, you just try to make it to the best of your ability and be as inventive and as fresh and as truthful as you can be, and then you've just got to hope for the best. You never know, no idea. We had no idea what the Killing Eve was going to work on. Absolutely zilch.
Yeah, that is really interesting and it's a really clever point that you've just brought up with, you know, bringing Sandra Oh into that particular show having the sort of TV success that she'd had and she sort of stepped into that so different to what we've seen on things like Ray's Anatime. But then also Lucy Hale drawn to this new project. You know, people know her from Pretty Little Lies. Yeah, that's right, isn't it. Am I just saying I'm saying that right, say it?
Yes, And you know that's.
Another I mean, she's a superstar I've actually been following Lucy's career, you know, and I think that she's brilliant. I mean, was she the first person that you were thinking of with this role or how did that come about?
She was definitely on a very short list of people that we were considering for it. You know, Lucy was completely brilliant because she read the script really enjoyed them. We were really thrilled that she'd responded to the material because it is a little bit of a difference to her, a difference to what she's she's done previously, although she's
done movies which are you know, dark and scary. And then she met with Freddie Cyborn, myself, Lee Morris, who's our other executive and my work partner, and with Tn McDonald, the director, and we had a really fantastic chat, and then she actually did some more reading with Toby and so it was just a very sort of organic, natural process so that she got to know us. She is and I'm not just saying this because everybody goes, oh my god, they're amazing, they're the lovelies, but she really
is genuinely brilliant. She's brilliant in the show. She's the most professional person, and she's completely gorgeous. So we love her as our to Lisa and Henry. But you know, Lucy was coming in to our world, bless her, and
she just she fitted in so brilliantly. You've got no idea. Also, you've got no idea when you you bring an actor who's worked, you know, in a slightly different sort of aesthetic and even in a different country, whether there is a gelling even of the rhythm of language, you know, but she fitted in so brilliantly. We think she's fantastic.
Did you get a chance because the Pretty Little Liars fan fans out there listening to this right now will be like, it would be remissive you ben not to ask the question, did you invite her over to watch like a marathon of Pretty Little Lies?
That no.
Also, we were filming during the during lockdown, so nobody could socialize with anybody. It was really sad. So that sadly no, Maybe we'll save that for another day.
I was just going to say, with getting back into the humor. You know, humour can be quite difficult these days after cancel culture has you know, scared people into what easily can be misconstrued as you know, inappropriate humor. Were you worried about that in making this show?
Not until you mentioned it?
Then?
Thanks Ben, You're like, I'm never talking to these people from Australia who put the fear of God in me.
Until you said something. I hope we're okay. It's very difficult.
You know, you can be you can you know you could spend your whole life going oh my god, it's somebody going to be offended by this and again, but you've got no idea what's going to happen.
I don't.
I really hope there is nothing at all that anybody could be offended by.
Well, how supportive we're AMC Studios and BBC and getting this show distributed internationally. I mean, the interesting thing about this question, it's kind of so much scripted content these days is being digested all around the world. Was this show very specifically being made not just for an English audience but for a global community?
Again, I think you've just got to concentrate on doing a great job at the center of it and not think about, you know, well, will this appeal to a wide audience, Because I think if you if you concentrate on just just make it really good. And then hopefully everybody else will really will really connect with it too. And I think that comes down to, you know, actually the relationships at the center of something, and you've just got to hope that sort of crime, you know, crime,
people enjoy crime. Coming back to what you're saying about, you know, being puzzle solvers and you know, just being engaged by the sort of the macabre element of stuff. But BBC BBC Studios who are selling this for us, which are just fantastic, and they went out and just talked to all of their partners and so I think if you try to make something that appeal to everybody, you'll you'll fail. Just look after the core job, just make it as good as you can.
I think, well, before we finish up, I really need to ask you these last two questions, but what can we expect from Killing Eve series four? Because and what do I need to give you to bribe you into telling me something? I'm also give me something. Sally.
Oh, it's interesting because I've got through my ePK interviews tomorrow about it.
This is like a good a good rehearsal for it.
It's it's a much much more personal series, particularly as you know we're going this is the final season, and I'd say it's intensely it's an intensely personal season and very funny and dark.
Well, I mean, it's interesting because a lot of people have been asking questions about this, and you know, with Killing Eve being open to a possible feature film, which I've heard a few people mentioned in interviews when doing
publicity even in previous seasons. I was curious to know, like, you know, with these two, rag Doll and Killing Eve, which one lets itself more to needing a continuum, Like you know, which one for you personally, would you like to continue to delve into maybe exploring in a feature film capacity.
You know, I think that they you know, I think that they're they're they're both really interesting to do that. I mean, I think Ragdob most of our influences are sort of movie influences rather than television influences. So Freddie is very influenced by sort of Korean cinema, by Bong June Ho, and you know, the a lot of those sort of crime pieces and also Silence of the Lambs. You know, they film very they feel very very cinematic, but at the same time, you know, you've got you've
essentially got with with Killing Eve. You've got the central conceit of that is is very cinematic and very and lends itself very much to a sort of shorter form contained story.
So either really you know.
I don't again, it's just you know, well, what does it come naturally? You don't want to sort of own for over Egg anything, But it'd be amazing to do either of them on a huge screen with a lot more money and just telling a story over ninety minutes instead of having to come up with eight hours of story.
Well yeah, it's kind of kind of the reverse. Everyone these days is talking about, oh, I want to now tell it on a long form, and then we'll be like, oh god, how did we do this? Like how do we put it all back in tonight?
It's really hard, and I, you know, I look look at people who you know, spend you know, four years developing a ninety minute feature film script.
Do you think, my god, we've had a year to do eight hours. It's really really hard.
So funny that you mentioned Science of the Lambs, because when I watched the trailer for it, immediately the cinematography and the mood and the taste of the whole trailer. It took me back to I mean I was a little bit young, too young for Science of the Lambs. I mean I am forty, so I was definitely nineteen when Hannibal came out. But I just I remember thinking when I saw the trailer to rag Doll, it just
it's sort of encapsulated that mood. So I guess it's important to talk about whether or not Science and Lambs was a direct influence.
I think that Science and Lambs were so brilliant because it was very, very character character driven. There was dark humor in it. It felt true for that relationship between hand of Elector and Starling work, it is extraordinary. And then you've got another you know, you've got the perpetrator
of the crime. That is the sort of sort of if you like the a plot, the thing that she's trying to stop is you know sits very much in the background, but you know there was a there's a moment that Freddy's talked about where actually she gets into a lift and she's because because she's so small, you have all of these great big cops around her in the lift, you just get there is a visual humor in there that is sort of subtle, and all of it is you know, so I think.
That there is there is it's a direct.
Influence just in terms of tonally what it suggests, not really in terms of anything else.
I'd say, well, my last question before you go is a question I ask all my guess and what is an amazing story from behind the scenes of making rag Doll the wir as an audience would appreciate that we might not have seen was it?
Well, it's probably the creation of the rag doll itself. And also we did which is something you know, look at that. None of the actors were really exposed to the full horror of it until they shot that scene.
And everybody has a different reaction. You know, some some of the reactions.
Are, oh my god, that's extraordinary, and but Lisa had a very very visceral reaction to it.
You know, we went in and went that, you know, how the hell did they make that?
So that that was the biggest thing is just seeing everybody's shock and also seeing all the crews reaction to it. But the main thing was sort of shooting it during during COVID. It's that is a really Yeah, it'd be interesting to know when you talk to other people. It is hard, and not just because you're you know, because you're trying to keep everybody safe, but because essentially you're you're only reacting.
To people's eyes all the time.
You're only reacting to people's eyes, and our industry is so touchy feely. You can't hug people. You can't you know, you can't be as intimate as you normally are. You can't you know, you can't see when people are smiley. You have to learn to smile your eyes. It's really that's that's that's the sort of quite hard for about it.
But but to have Topa McDonald who is our lead director, the Lisa Henry, Lucy Freddie Cyborne on set, there's incredible and Lizzie Rosbridge are producing this incredible sort of core of people who are so enthusiastic about making this good. I'd say that that is the that was the biggie on it.
I'm going to say this selling I've been in your audience for a very long time. You're a brilliant content maker, and I'll continue to be in your audience time for a very long time. Thank you so much for being able to take the time to be able to have this chat about Ragdoll, and I hope that other people that are listening to this is just as excited to see it as I am.
Well, I hope you enjoy You enjoy it, then, thank you, thanks so uch, thanks
For having a good time.