Welcome back to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris and on this podcast I'll be going behind the scenes with the biggest players in television. On today's episode, I have Brett Bowman, who is a story producer on TV shows made here in Australia and the US of a specializing in reality TV. He has worked across some of the
biggest shows we've ever seen on Australian screens. His job is to collaborate with executive producers and editors and find the stories that are the most interesting that will end up on your TV. He has some of the best storytelling and scriptwriting skills in the business, which makes producers, TV networks and production studios line up to work with him.
He knows more.
About the reality stars on his shows than they probably know about themselves, which is pretty creepy but also very fascinating to unpack. So I'd like to welcome you to today's guest. It's Brett Bowman.
So I'm a story producer in the sense that I'm a post producer.
For the first time in the history of for Shark.
And obviously you've got story notes and stuff and you pick out this is going to be the focus of the episode.
Like I'm tolerating you in here.
It's like a jigsaw puzzle and we put the pieces together the winner of Big Brother. These sorts of shows cast people who are kind of alphers.
To find out who else is going into the jungle.
It's always better to be honest about who you are than try to be something you're not.
Hey, mate, how are you are you?
Well? I'm good? How are you I'm I'm really well. Yeah.
You've worked on I'm a celebrity, Love Island, The Block, Big Brother, The Voice. What is it that producers get when they hire you for a job.
Well, I mean I love television, I love working in TV, and I think probably a sense of humor. Like I know when we used to work on The Block, people would be like, oh, yours is the funny episode.
So, as a story producer in reality TV, you're responsible for following and developing storylines throughout the day. Can you give me an example of how that works on a reality show?
Yes, So I'm a story producer in the sense that I'm a post producer. So a normal story producer is like in the field, say you're on married at first site, You're there at the wedding, you're there at the honeymoon, you're there at the dinner party, whatever, Whereas I'm more you've filmed it all and now we make the story again in post. What's going to go to where? So
it's different for different shows. Like when I've worked on the Block, you get given an episode which might be two or three days, and you watch all the footage and obviously you've got story notes and stuff, and you pick out this is going to be the focus of
the episode. We'll follow these teams doing this doing that, Whereas something like Love Island, you're making the show as it's being made in the villa, so like literally you're responding to everything that happens, and we know that this happened this morning, and we'll probably have to follow and see where that goes. So we know, oh, by the last act of tonight's show, we know we're building towards this.
If there's an event like a you know, new bombshells are coming in or something like that, so it's like jigsaw puzzle and we put the pieces together to make it all fit.
Well, you're working on the cube at the moment, so that series hasn't obviously come to an end. You're still working on that post production of putting that whole show together.
Yeah. So we filmed a couple of weeks ago in a big block and I was there for some of the filming, and then I could stream from the office because I'm a supervisor on the show, so we could get pickups on the run. You can just make more suggestions, like if he's doing a throw to break you go, can you do it this way? Or we might need to spread this game over to an ad break. I haven't seen a better position.
Eight lives through three games, four games away from a quarter of a million dollars? Are they brave enough to step into the qube once again?
To find out? Next week we'll see that. It's more that sort of thing in something like The Cube, because there's not a lot of story there. Obviously, the story is can they beat the Cube? Yeah? And then often you'll have little things for the characters, and so like threading that Nan and Grandson story beat throughout their journey to see if they can beat the Cube, or you know, it varies within each character.
You know, what's interesting about The Cube was that, you know, we got that cliffhanger where their storyline is going to continue over to the next episode. Is there a choice in post production that you go, oh, this is a good hook. You know, we want them to come back for episode three, so we're going to choose their storyline to break those episodes apart.
Yeah, you want to be able to drag people across to the next step and see so we have like all the couples all you know, they're all shot, and we figure out where they go. Like, these guys could be good to start the episode. These are someone who you want at the end. These we could They've done enough games that we can stretch them across a thing. And someone like Connie and Hayden. There's such interesting characters.
It automatically makes a good promo. People are going to want to see if they can beat the cube and win a quarter of a mill. It's kind of a no brainer.
How did you end up falling in love with unscripted reality? I mean, you and I both around about the same age, so we've grown up with scripted content on television. What was it that made you fall in love with unscripted reality?
It was easier to get into Does that make sense? Not that I don't love it, but in Australia it feels like I did eight weeks as a storyliner on Neighbors and it was super tough because that show is a machine and I don't think it's enough credit that it deserves. So just the shit output of episodes, you know, it's a movie a week if you were to add it up, and then reality is just something that we just make more of it, so you end up kind
of falling into that. But I also love it, Like I grew up watching the original Big Brother and so to work on Big Brother wen Channel nine brought it back was like a dream come true for me and still ranks as one of my favorite television experiences. And then that's kind of evolved into a show like Love Island. You get to often travel like I've been to Africa, I've been to span You just get something different every time,
like I've done. And even when I moved to the States, there was I've worked on shows that we would never make here purely because we're a much smaller market than the US is.
I mean, that's what's fascinating about And we're going to get into that in a little bit, because it is fascinating to see what those markets and how they are different. But you know, when it comes to reality television, do you enjoy the free falling of not knowing what people are going to do next?
I do. I hate when people are like, oh, that's so scripted, and it's like, you don't know how much easier our jobs would be if it was scripted. And sometimes things are pear scripted because that is how people act, you know, like they do cheat on their part. Sometimes the hardest thing is when they don't act like you would expect someone to, and we go, how do we work this in? Because people will actually think this isn't real.
Reality TV still have to follow a kind of basic storytelling formula, But those moments that happen I think are so much better because they're actually real. Like watching Love Island when Cassidy went from I called it the meg Reyinarch where she was like sleepless in Seattle, like America's sweetheart, to like turning into basically becoming not a villain per se, but like a product of her own behavior.
She turned into basic instinct by the end.
Yeah, and I've seen like people cry. I remember, look, it was horrific, but I remember in twenty twelve in Your Big Brother when Josh's brother died. That was like, it was hard for you guys in the house, but it was just as hard for the four hundred crew behind the scenes, because you're living with all of you every single day and it's like family, even though you guys have no idea who the hell we are.
The Big Brother house is in shock after learning Josh's brother had died suddenly. Toby was just thirty two years old, and it is believed he suffered a fatal heart attack on Wednesday. Josh was taken to a private area where he was met by his parents, who broke the news. Josh then left the house that night to be with his family, and on Thursday announced his decision to leave permanently. He then returned to the house to collect his things and say goodbye to his housemates.
But that sort of stuff crops up all the time, you know, even in the cube or in the voice or you know, like, you can't script that stuff as much as people think you can.
How much do you pre plan, I mean, in what's going to happen? Do you set up situations hoping to generate certain storylines?
I wouldn't say certainly, not on shows I've done. Like you know, if you put a challenge in or a task, you're hoping something comes out of it. Like if we put in Love Island, they put in a tweet game. You want a reaction. That's the whole point of it. I'm a celeb. We put in a tweet game at night,
you want them to react a certain way. Or if we know someone's afraid of heights and there just happens to be a treadmill on the side of a cliff, You're probably going to want the person that's afraid of heights to do it because it's good story when they do it, like Birchmore did it a couple of years ago, Like she was petrified, but she still got it out
in that treadmill. And I was up on that now and it is terrifying, Like I would not do that, but you know they do it, and that's what makes it so good.
I think, oh, one hundred percent. And I always wondered how much you would speak to like maybe the casting or the psychologists to understand the habits of you know, these reality TV stars before the series starts. Do you sit down with those people and go, oh, we've now got an idea of who this person is before it starts, so we kind of know what we need to look for.
You definitely do sit down with casting or you get a run through of who the cast is. Like Big Brother, we would always get these are the housemates, these are what we think they'll be, but as we find out that often isn't the case. Like there's people you think are going to be really annoying, and people thought like Tim Dormer. I remember he went in and was really
annoying and everyone could not stand him. And had we not had Vote to Say, if he would have been out the first week even you probably would have been out the first week without Vote to Save. You can cast someone to be like the annoying character you think they're going to be annoying you know there is they'll irritate them, and then their personality will change depending on the dynamics of the house or the villa, or wherever
the heck the show is set. And often you'll get these sorts of shows cast people who are kind of alphas in their group, like the dominant one, and then they'll come into a situation that there's seven other alphas and that person will shrink away and go into their shell. So everyone reacts really differently, and one thing casting, you know, casting might say one thing and that person's totally something like I mean, Cassidy, she's the sweetheart, ends up being
the villain by the end. Or Tim he's the annoying one and now he's beloved by Australia and wins Big Brother. You know, you just you just don't know. And the most interesting thing is people that go in there expecting to be a certain thing themselves and want to portray that often end up stuffing it them for themselves. So it's always better to be honest about who you are than try to be something you're not, Like I want
to be the good guy that everyone loves. Inevitably you'll stuff up and somehow you could become the villain or the idiot, or you come off the exact opposite of what you're trying to do. So it's really interesting and changes all the time.
I was at a party the other day and there it was an event and there was a people from Rally television everywhere, and someone came up to me and they were like, I'm the fun person, Like I'm always fun and I'm fun right now, Like I'm fun, and they go, why do they make me so unlikable? Like you know, when I watched the show back, I just was like, who is that person? Why you like that? Like she was like, why wouldn't they just show me
as this fun person? And I was like, news from the network, you are that annoying person right now, and yeah, like you obviously have no idea. There's a disconnect between who you are and how the world can see you.
I once saw a block producer when they're interviewing, they do the end of day interviews, just saying to someone, look, you just need to be honest. Honesty is better than putting on a front because eventually you're going to figure that front, like we figure the front out, or you
expose yourself somehow. And I remember this couple were trying to be the nice ones, like we're not getting involved in conflict, but meanwhile you can see them with the couple that was causing conflict, and they just end up looking like little lap dogs next to them, like they're like their little cheerleaders, and you're like, you're not coming
across as the happy, go lucky people. You think you are now because we've got all this footage of you kind of bitching behind people's backs, which everyone does it. Let's be honest, if someone had a camera on me all the time, people probably wouldn't like me, but you know, like they do it to themselves to be honest and
be yourself, and it will come through on camera. And it always it's always the people that are honest that people fall in love with, despite their flaws and probably because of them.
Yeah, well, I think that's the tangible thing. It's relatable when you're seeing people behave badly on television. Nine times out of ten, we've all behaved badly in our own life, and we like to be seen on screen. So you're like, oh god, I can't believe she just did that. I remember I did that once. And then you're like, oh, I like her, you know what I mean. Even if it is the most horrible, you know, things that these people do, You're like, okay, I can relate.
Yeah, everyone does horrible things. It's just you don't have a camera on you all the time to expose what's going on. You know, Like everyone complains, so everyone's bitching and like everyone gossips and if you put a camera on in an office and just had cameras in all the rooms, you could probably get a really good TV show out of that because people are running from room to room or like, did you hear about this? Everyone looks like them stabbing or not very nice, but it's just human nature.
You've worked in the Australian and the American market throughout your career. How does the Australian and the US market differ when it comes to the content that's being made? What makes them so different?
I think the biggest thing is the size. Like Australia is such a small Like we've got what like five main channels and all the digitals and then we've got Foxtel and you've got your stand and Netflix and Disney Plus and whatever. But over there, like I had nine hundred channels on my cable and that's not including the streamers like Netflix, HBO, Max, like every Man and his
Dog has a streaming channel now over there. So I think the breadth of content that they can make and the huge market they can afford to be a bit more niche than we can. I worked on a show over there that's run. I worked on a spin off. So there's a show called Forged in Fire I think a place here on History Channel where it's basically Project Runway for Knives, so like people make knives each week
or swords and then they test them. So that's run for over ten seasons in the States, and I worked on the spinoff, which was Forging Fire Knife or Death, which is like Ninja Warrior with swords. So they had to run a course and chop through pineapples in one go and like slice a fish in half without getting caught on the butt. Like it's insane.
You're making this up.
I'm not making it up. That is that is something we would never make here. Like do we have people into knives and swords? Probably? Do we have enough to fill ten seasons of a show and three seasons of a spin off? Probably not, But America they do. They can afford to go really niche. We would never make
that show here. I just don't think we have a enough of the talent probably I don't know, but also the reach of audio and you know, like they can really cater to that audience there whereas we just can't.
Can you imagine Beth mccavey at Channel ten or James Warburton at Channel seven. They're like, got the upfront's coming. I know what it is. Let's do that knife show from America and see how that goes.
It would be amazing. I would watch it because I watch, Yes, I just don't. I don't see it happening here. And it's just because of the total different size in markets, Like they have shows about you know, that Duck Dynasty show about people that hunt for ducks, or like like we have things like open Mind Hunters, I guess, or Territory Cops or something, but it's not as specific as that, Like, yeah, a knife forging show and it's a big hit over there.
Like that's one of the biggest appeals of going there is working on shows I pretty much knew I could never work on here. We just don't have we don't have the audience or the budget.
Even what about game shows, because that's really interesting that game shows like Holly Molly, The Cube, Ultimate Tag, all of these shows, which I think are fantastic and I really applaud having new content here in Australia going up against the beast of merit At first sight, what do you think the reason is that those shows aren't resonating as much as a show like Maths.
I think there's a lot of I know, I said America has a lot more choice over there, but I think we also have a lot more choice here now with the Netflix and stuff, and people are just moving away from appointment television, like Maps in a way is an appointment television show. You know the next day at work,
everyone's going to be talking about it. You want to gossip about Maths or Love Ireland or any of those, like they're like dramas, but they're not whereas I don't know if game shows have that kind of gospip ability. That's the wrong stupid word to use, but you know what I mean, Like the qube by all means should be doing really well. But I think it's just a
nature of the split. People have stopped watching regular TV where they you know, unless it's an event, unless it's Maths, unless it's Big Brother or something that you can or you're behind the conversation.
Last year, my sister said to me, she was like, I can't go out tonight, or I can't come over for dinner. I'm watching UK Love Island and everyone at my work is watching it, and I can't miss it because I won't be able to join the conversation tomorrow. And I was like, oh my goodness, Like I remember that for me growing up in the nineties, Like I remember once I missed the finale of melrose Place and no one spoke to me for twenty four hours, and
I just was like what. But you know, again, that comes down to the definition of appointment television and the idea that we were all watching it, where the idea that all of Australia is sitting there at seven thirty eight to eight thirty is no longer a thing because you know, they do have you know, last night, I think it was so funny. I spoke to like five of my friends today and all five of them watched different things, but they all selected it. They all chose that.
They're like Woody Allen versus Mia Farrow that documentary that's on Foxtel. You know, so so vast because we are appealing to the masses. Is a little bit of disappointment in the fact that because I still love Freedoware television, I grew up being obsessed with TV, especially Australian television. There is a bit of a disappointment to see those numbers drop. Do you reckon we will see them go back up?
I think they might, like everyone. I think the pandemic proved that people just want to watch stuff and they'll find it anyway they can. Like that's a thing, like you can still if you miss the Cube, you should go to ten play and watch it, you know, like you can go watch it whenever you want.
Now do you think we like storylines with people that we can delve a little bit deeper into, especially like relationship based you know, there isn't enough backstory for us to delve out minds into that we're not going to be there because I think that with Holy Molly as an example, you know, the time that each contestant was on screen with five minutes. Sure we've got a little background, and sure we got to see them take on the challenge, but did we spend enough time with those people to
develop a relationship with them? Do you think that appointment television, that it still exists, has to be surrounded by a deeper relationship with these people.
I don't think so, to be honest, I wouldn't be watching Holy Moly for the characters, if that makes sense. I'm watching for the crazy holes and the challenges they've got to do. And if you get good characters, it's a bonus, you know, Like I think Cube Cast is really good, and you're probably watching the Cube to see the Cube beat them or see if they can beat the Cube, not so much watching for their story, If that makes sense. I think it helps if there's a
continuing story. It's I think that's why Maths works because people just want to see what happens next, what happens next. It's much more a drama than a in many ways, like a game show is kind of standalone. You could slot in anywhere and you can still follow it. Like you can watch any episode of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire and it doesn't matter that you miss the first three, But if you miss the first three of Maths, you're going to miss out on the discussion.
I like Holy Moly, because I like pretending that people I don't really like in the real world are the people that fall off the challenges. And the funny thing was someone who I actually really hate in real life ended up on the show and I was watching it and I had to rub my eyes. I was like what, I was like, I hate this woman and then she like had a ghastly death, and I was like, that's why I love this show is because you know, I
get these moments. And my partner kept saying to me when I had this conflict with this woman years ago, he was like, you need to tell her that she's an asshole. You need to pull her up on it. And I was like, no, because eventually people get their come up and and holy moly, finally let me have the joy moment.
And sometimes that's what you want. Like sometimes you're watching, you know, a game show or something, and you don't like the person. You're like, I hope you lose, you know, I hope, I hope you lose all your money. And I've done that, you know, you know, like, God, you're annoying. I really hope you don't get it. It's the same thing in a drama. You want that person to be punished, but hey, it's entertaining to watch what would all happen and unfold like that keeps you watching in a sense.
We've come to know. So the term stripped reality a show that is stretched out over a few episodes over a week. Does that work better here or in America?
That's actually not something they really do in America at all, stripped reality, like I think they do it for game shows, sure, but like Love Ireland. When I did the first season of US Love Island, that was I believe one of the first stripped realities they had. And I think we were on five nights a week and we went six nights a week last year. But it's very much an
Australian thing as far as I know. I think even The Bachelor over there is only maybe two nights a week if that, or one, but Love Ireland was definitely the first, and it was a big gamble I think for CBS because that's unheard of because even their Big Brother is three nights a week and it's not consecutive. I don't think. I think it works really well over here, and I think that's why we do it all the time, you know, like people are it's almost that binge watching things.
So I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't start a bit more in the States because you can get I guess more out of a series in a way.
You know, it makes more sense out of the back end of it because you understand advertising money and selling a program for a higher amount of money because there's more content to sort of advertise through. I'd never heard of the term stripped reality before I started doing this podcast, and it's interesting. I then started seeing people discussing it
in the media over the last few weeks. It's becoming like Australia's hip to the notion that they're watching a show that's been stretched out, and there's a lot of people being like, well, I wish it wasn't longer. I wish it was shorter, you know. So it's interesting whether or not we will continue to see strip reality as much knowing that audiences aren't tuning into it.
I think it depends how much you strip it, like how much you stretch something out. If you stretch something past its natural kind of life, then I think it suffers for it. You know, Like, if the content holds, then it's fine being stripped, you know what I mean. But if it doesn't and you're stretching it out as you want to stretch it out, I think the audience notices and switches off. So I think you have to have the content worthy of stripping it.
I think that's interesting because you know, in post, and you're working in post, you know, are you getting to the point where you know that there's an amount of content you need to fill and you know there's not enough TV content? Do you get to that point with any of.
The you would hope not. I haven't really worked on a show where that's been a problem. You've never had to stretch something out longer than it needs to. In effect, you usually have so much content. I remember the first season of Love Ireland. We were I think going to air a lot longer than we were supposed to be because we had so so much was happening we could
not keep up. That was so exhausting. That show is really hard to make, but really rewarding to make, but just because of the content they churn through, you know, like people are breaking up, new relationship starting and you're like, oh my god, can you guys just slow down so we can catch up.
Are we're putting too much pressure on ourselves to make shows always look so beautiful? Like as then you watch these shows these days and Survivor looks like a Bruce Beresford film, you know what I mean? Like Endemol really is turning out some amazing content that visually is so turned up, like it's so amazing. Are we putting too much pressure on ourselves to make things look visually appealing and getting too far away from the rawness of the reality of the contestants and their interactions.
I don't think so. Like a lot of what you would think is visually appealing are like the technologist come so far, Like drone shots make everything look awesome. You stick some drone shots in and it looks like a movie. Now there stays And that's not that much work, if that makes sense to make that look really good. And I think you can put as much flash on something as you want if it's not compelling content, people aren't
going to give a shit. If it's got flashes and bells and whistle, you know, like and it looks glossy like. And I think people demand that now because we're so much more use to looking at things like the Netflix shows and you know, like where it's glossy and big budget and it doesn't take much to make things look like that. These people can do it on their phone, you know, like they can shoot whole movies on their phone that look amazing. So why shouldn't TV kind of
look like that? And at the end of the day, you want to put out a product that looks great, like I don't want to work on a show that looks like slop Like I mean, the Cube looks awesome, like we've got all the fancy ar stuff which is unbelievable, and it looks all futuristic, and I mean it just adds that extra dimension to the show.
When you think about the people, you know, the type of people drawn to reality at the moment, are they too wise to the show's formats. I mean, I know someone who wanted to be on TV so bad and that they are on TV at the moment playing the villain role so hard. Are we allowing too many attention seekers onto programs these days and getting too far away from say the Reggie fish and chip shop owner, like people who are more willing to unpack their genuine bag
of shit. We're now seeing people going, I know how to play that villain role, and they're getting in there and they're unauthentically being an asshole just to get attention.
I don't think you could ever find another Reggie that makes sense, Like, I think everyone's too savvy to it. And let's be honest, someone that's like a Reggie probably is not going to audition for reality TV. Sure you can find them. They're like a diamond in the RAF and you don't always want to go with someone who's like I'm You can smell people desperate to be on TV.
They can't just be I want to be on TV and be famous because I think the audience sees through that now and most of the cut like you would try and avoid casting that person. But I also think it's getting harder and harder as you know, all the TikTok and everything kind of merges into one. People have so many more options to be on TV as it were that, yeah, you're just not going to it's harder to find. It's harder to find a Reggie and I mean that's some of the best TV I've seen. Reggie.
What do you think the Australian public fell in love with you?
That's more annoying voice genuine I think because I say I get in trouble a lot because I say what I think.
Because he's Reggie Bird was the rough diamond who became a national treasure.
I wanted a holiday.
Because I was working in the fish.
And chip shop and I just wanted a holiday because only had two days break a year.
I don't want to get back to my life, you know, Like I still remember when she says Chris's wearing a moose head and Reggie literally goes, I don't want to go back to my life. Like I see that clip and I would still tear up because it's so genuine And I think you still do get that even if people kind of want to be on TV, but that kind of rawness. I don't know that. I think we're all too affected now.
No, I think that you're right. I mean it is a little bit sad in some ways, because that was the true magic of these shows was, as I said, watching someone unpack their bag of shit on television is good viewing. You know, if you can see them editing or self editing, or controlling the situation and being something who they probably aren't normally just to get a grab, knowing that's what's going to end up on television, it
becomes unauthentic. And interestingly enough, there's someone on Maths at the moment that I genuinely know very well and is literally trying to do anything that will come across as bad so that he gets the worst villain edit of all time, so that he can then redeem himself afterwards, because then, if you think about it, it takes.
A certain level of person to do.
That, Like, yeah, where's Clarice Stoling when you need her so that she can put that person in jail because he's a serial killer, Like you know that person is a sociopath, because they're aware of that, they're playing that role and they've got other people falling into that, and most audiences aren't aware of it. Most audiences like, oh, this guy's I really like this.
I think someone like that might get found out, you know, or it won't go the way they think it is. But I don't know that you can. You try and avoid it where you can. But maybe they're really watchable.
Are there any shows that you won't do that? Could they come knocking and they're like, hey, can you come and do this show? And you've turned down?
Not really. I'm kind of in a place now where I try to work on the shows I want to work on. There's a reason I've done seven seasons of IMUSSLEB because I genuinely enjoy the show. I love Love Island. No, there's nothing I'm like, you know, I'm lucky enough that I don't have to go do shows that I'm not going to mention that I don't maybe want to do, you know. Yeah, and I've been able to do a variety of different.
Things continue to interest you, you know. I think that's the important thing for you. Like we often talk about being authentic in front of the camera, but I actually think that your authentic reasons to be behind the camera is also really vital because I know people who make television, and I know the best content makers are the people who are genuinely passionate about it and are there for the right reasons.
I think you want to like what you do, like anything, you know, Like you hope that you're working in a field, getting to do something that you enjoy doing, because if not, it's a job, you know, and no one wants to be doing just a job. So yeah, I've been kind of lucky. I've been kind of lucky, you know, Like I've allowed I've been able to travel, I've been able to work overseas, you know.
Like my last question for you is the same question I ask everybody, and that is over the many years of making television, is there something of a funny story, something that you tell around the dinner table.
I think I can tell. So in the twenty two so your season of Big Brother, it was secrets, right, the big thing with secrets, and it was so closely guarded that the boys had a secret and the girls had to see. And my good friend who's really high up in America now, Simon, had worked with Alex. So we were transcribing your Master interviews and I couldn't know what someone else's secret was, right like while we were transcribing.
It was that tight. And I remember we launched and we were coming up to the first night where we were going to reveal the boy's secrets, and we had to of course get each of the boys into the die room to talk about what their secret was, like, tell Big Brother what your secret is so we could build packages to reveal them. And I remember quite clearly George, whose secret was that he was a millionaire, went into the die room, told his secret and literally walked out
into the backyard. And when Big Brother told me, I could tell you my secret, and like, this is twelve month's worth of planning, and I involunteer laughed because it was one of those moments where you're like, oh my god, this is all going to because the girls have to guess on Sunday, this is all going to go pear shaped. And I remember Simon just screaming at me. We're not screaming. He was like, don't like because I'd started laughing. And I still to this day we reference if I've done
something to annoy him. He's like, George like thankfully, because I mean he was on the phone. I think Alex was on the phone the control room. We're like screaming into the house, going George, come back to the diary room, George,
come back to the die room. It was like the whole the whole Sunday Night show hinged on, none of the girls knowing that George was a millionaire, because no one was probably going to guess that George was a millionaire because I think they guessed you were the millionaire.
They did the millionaire.
Yes, that's probably yeah. I still hear to know, like.
Oh my god, it's seriously And that's the best thing about reality television is it can literally turn itself on its head within just a second because the person you cast is George. I just want to say thank you so much for being here today. Fantastic to unpack being a story producer and also getting your insights in television. Congratulations on all the work that you're doing and I can't wait to watch more of your shows.