It's in the news today, but it was actually on TV Reload the podcast last week thatyline. Welcome back Eyes to TV Reload. As you may know, my name is Benjamin Norris and this is your podcast to get all the inside goss on the popular TV shows that you might be watching from around the world. Underniably, our TV sets are a major part of our home entertainment, and yet very little is known about how our favorite shows
get made. So each episode I've been finding the guests that want to dive just that little bit deeper into the shows that they're currently making, so that you can hear all their exclusive stories and gain access to the biggest names in Australian television. I want to thank you for downloading or subscribing to this podcast however you found me. I really do love hearing your feedback, so make sure you leave a review or a comment on your chosen
podcast platform. On today's podcast, I have Courtney Act who has just had their mask revealed on the Mass Singer. If you missed any of Courtney's performances as Cowgirl, you can go back and check them out on tenplay. I loved the full circle moment of Courtney singing what About Me, which became a huge hit for Shannonol the year that they both starred on Australian Idol. That one definitely was
one of my favorites. Shane Jenik, better known for his stage name Courtney Act, is an Australian drag queen's singer and television personality. Courtney first came to prominence competing on the very first season of Australian Idol in two thousand and three. After that show, she went on to sign at BMG Australia which is now known as Sony Music, and released that iconic single rub Me Wrong, which made
a decent splash on the ARIA charts. There is obviously so much to Courtney's story, from RuPaul's drag race to winning Big Brother UK, those dance moves, on Dancing with the Stars, the LGBTI advocacy in this country and around the world. There's just so much to unpack, and somehow Courtney touches on everything effortlessly without ever really sounding like that they're big noting themselves. I personally am a huge fan and a friend and this chat was everything I
would expect from Shane and also so much more. I will ask if there were big discussions behind the scenes regarding the reveal and if there was much consideration into revealing Courtney or Shane. We will discuss that play school debarcle and how dressing up as a cow is somehow more acceptable than a man dressing as a woman. You will find out which of the three judges had met Courtney before and if politics is something that Shane would
ever truly be interested in. Plus, we will get plenty of exclusives from behind the scenes of The Mass Singer, which returns for its season finale on Monday night on Network ten. And if you've fallen just that little bit behind, you can catch up on ten. Play anyway, guys, let's bring Shane slash Courtney act into the podcast, and I really do hope you enjoy this very insightful episode of TV reload.
Wow.
Then I just wanted to say that I was in the process of doing my hair and as soon as Peter said, can you do nine thirty, I've just come in enter the room, so I hadn't finished my face, and I look like I've been electrocuted.
I think that's all in your head. You look. I even went I even went like this to check.
Just to make sure. Yeah, and I hadn't even framed the camera, so I'm a lot closer than I normally would be. But anyway, how are you.
I'm good, I'm very good. Actually, I don't know what hour is it there?
Nine n I'm thirty in the morning.
I got up at four thirty. I'm in Hong Kong.
What are you doing in Hong Kong? Can you tell us or is it a secret project?
Yeah, I'm on Celebrity sas Hong Kong. No, I am performing at the Gay Games opening gala concert on Sunday. I don't have to explain what the Gay Games are to you.
I assume no you don't. It's fine. I completely understand, and I should have actually known that's why you were there. But you know, for the people playing at home, the.
Gay Games is an opportunity for queer people to heal their high school pe wounds with sports. Obviously the women did a much better job than the queer men. But yeah, it's like I literally have only just realized, like I'm not even I don't think I'm even you know what it was? It was when Marti Gras was in the Sydney cricket ground Zoe Koombsmar and I was standing there in like a rehearsal, the King rehearsal hosting the Mardi Gras.
But and she turned to me and she she we were looking at all the seats and she was like, all of this is for sport, and it dawned on me. So, like, sixty thousand people fill that stadium several times a week to watch sport, and I had never crossed my mind how popular sport is that like most of the country loves watching sport regularly. And I don't know, I know I sound dumb for saying that, but it just sort
of dawned on me. And I think because historically queer people are so like, oh, sport, I should probably say like gay men are like, huh sport, because obviously the Matilda's a bunch of wonderful women and a lot of them queer and out and other female sporting arenas. But yeah, I think that that those high school traumas of sport really stay with us, and so the Gay Games is a great opportunity to like go like, hey, there's actually
something really fun about playing sport. I'm not playing sport, I'm performing but I did notice that marjong is sport in the Hong Kong Ga Games, which is about the only sport that I think I would be capable of not injuring myself. I would come last still, but at least I wouldn't break a limb.
Do you know what I always think of when I think of LGBT I in sport. And I don't know whether or not you remember this. We're the same age, so you may. But do you remember Gina Riley and Jane Turner on Big Girls Blouse doing the hotel check in at the Olympic Gates Sport?
Hello, we would like a room please? Okay? So that's one bedroom with two beds? No?
No, just one bed okay, one bed in a trundle.
No, oh okay.
I always wonder, you know, I always wondered because so much of your humor is so accessible to me. I always have wondered whether you've watched all of those same shows, like being born in Australia and watching Big Girls Blouse, Fast Forward, the comedy company that's in my DNA, and I don't know, did you grow up on all that?
Absolutely, and that's one of the most refreshing things about coming home to Australia. Is that like all of that, whether you whether you say if you go with that Mari from Marjong, I will go you with the night like any even when I said mar Jong before, I'm sure that a little part of your DNA thought about that.
And so there's just all of this like added texture when you're talking to people in this stream, particularly like you know of our Vintine because you just even that was probably a bit our of vind Like it's not specific, but it's just like that comedy sensibility that we got from Maker and Gina and Jane and the whole.
I can't you know, do it. It's so funny as well, like you're in our DNA now as well. And I didn't quickly do the research on this, but I feel like you've pet on television for nearly two decades. Am I right by.
Saying man Idol was twenty years ago?
Yeah, it's just crazy. And I can't work at if Courtney Act is in my DNA or I just or it was too easy. But as soon as you performed as cowgirl, like I just was like, that's that's Courtney Act. That's that's shame, Like I it just and then every performance that you did was amazing. But I could actually see Courtney Act singing do you know what I mean? Like through the through the.
Cow and did that make it? Because in the comment section there's like, because I don't know how many types of people are out, but there's the type of person who's like, that's Courtney Act and like like somehow like
the game's over. But then there's like, like you said, you're like, oh, that's obviously Courtney And then you watched me performing as Cowgirl each episode, doing the numbers and I guess like almost transposing what you know of me through the cow and I feel like then you feel like you're in on it and you're enjoying it.
You're a super fan and that's the joy of it. For those people out there that thought you were all those other people, fair play to them, and that's probably what they truly thought. But for me, I could see like even some of the movements being like Disgraceland back in Melbourne and performances.
Well, you know what was funny is like I have got some like.
Super fan Instagram accounts and there was this strange unspoken acceptance like the Courtney Act Archives and Courtney Files, like with my name in the title, and none of them were like, we know it's Courtney Act. They just were like, oh, we love Cowgirl. Isn't this a great performance by Cowgirl?
And they all kind of went along with the charade of it all, which was really adorable to see that that's how they chose and like, you know, they would message and be like, obviously you can't say anything, but we think he's doing really good job on the mast Singer.
I was like, I'm not even going to write to you on Instagram or Twitter or any of those messages. I'm just going to enjoy the minutia of you being on this show because I'd sort of thought about it for so long, thinking you'd be such a great contestant on this show that while I was getting it, I just was like, I'm just going to enjoy my slice of cake instead of eating it too, do you know what I mean?
Yeah, you just go along with the charade of it all and have fun. And that's what the masting is. If you had to explain the Mastinger to someone, imagine that boardroom meeting must have happened. I mean, I'm in Hong Kong, right.
Now, which is where it originated from.
It must have been in Asia somewhere. It definitely feels like that. And I can't imagine in like a Western boardroom a person coming in to pitch the mask singer without a precedent, because they just be like, what the PU talking about? Get out of this room. But they when you can show people what the mask singer is, it's a definite show them, don't tell them kind of show. And they sit down and they watch it, and you're not even suspending disbelief. I don't know what you're doing.
You're just enjoying. You're just letting go and you're just having fun, and you're just watching this very silly show.
I love the idea of you being on this show though, because I think of you as being able to wear masks and blur gender diversity, and the idea of you being cowgirl even though the girl is there. I felt like these shows where you can put on a mask and just sing without being judged by how you look, just it's fascinating to me. I think this something in that I probably haven't articulated it properly, but you know where I'm going.
I know what you mean. And it's that thing of like, it's that thing of people putting aside your identity and their preconceptions maybe about queer people, about a drag performer and being entertained by them in some form, like you're inside this giant anthropomorphic anthropomorphic and take it and promorphic suit, a humanized animal, and they're just being entertained and enjoying the whole thing. And then you take your head off and they're like, oh my god, it's a drag queen.
What did we think about this person before we knew? Does that does that shift our opinions or ideas about what we think about queer people or and especially like when the idea of you know, like cowgirl reading a storybook to kids, people probably wouldn't think twice about. It's like Disneyland, it's a character costume. It's like we're so familiar with like people dressed up as giant cows or
ducks or mice entertaining children. But the idea of the person inside that suit, who we know nothing about, you know, who those people are inside those suits. But the idea of like me dressed up as Courtney, dressed up in drag reading a storybook to kids, is this, like you, sort of strangely shocking proposition in the world right now?
I will qualify that by saying strangely shocking proposition for about five people who are all, you know, gunning to get political points for their extreme right views by inciting fear in people where no fear needs to exist. But yet So it was kind of fun doing Cowgirl and being on tele being in this big, crazy costume and entertaining people without them no identity.
I feel like, without you knowing this, you are able to explain things like that to straight people or to people who may have fear of queer in a really simple way that's so digestible that I feel like you've opened and unlocked a lot of doors because just simply saying what happened on play school and all of those common you know, because it's just you, a man addressed as a woman is frightening to them. But as soon as you explain to them, but I can be dressed
as a cow and you don't have a problem. And your children an't going to grow up thinking that they're going to be cows, you know what I mean? Yeah, And all of a sudden, this language, this conversation is so accessible to people it's disarming.
It's just that there's like this level of critical thinking that we seem to have lost across the discourse in general, which I think is one of the problems, you know, like the referendum recently right therese these We're not used to people in the in the politics, in politics and the media being willfully dishonest. We're used to them being a little bit dishonest. We're used to politicians flying a little bit, and we used to the media sort of
giving a spin. But we've entered this sort of Trumpian era of politics and media now where people are being told things by the same institutions and people they've trusted for so long, but now that actually there's been a ship where that information is no longer trustworthy. But they don't know that because they're not invested. They're just trying to get through life and get their Starbucks order right.
They're not really out there on the front line trying to understand the nuancewers of the conversation about gender or queer identity, about First nation's identity. They're just taking the information as it's given to them because they're busy and They're making decision based on what they hear, and there's not really that ability to just pause for a second, step back and think does this make sense? Because usually when you do that, you're like, hang on, this doesn't
make sense. You know, the theomonga and then the negative hype surrounding stuff. And I've been thinking in the wake of the referendum, like, why won't this keep happening to us in other areas of politics as we go forward, and how can we stop it from happening? And I think a lot of it is about educating people in like it's critical thinking, right. But then I've been researching this project about masculinity. I've been listening to all these
men's podcasts, which I do not recommend. It's a horrible and weird world out there on all these podcasts, and all of these guys like the Andrew Taps of the world. Actually it was Andrew Tate. He was like, you know, I've done the critical I can't do his accent. I've done the critical thinking. And I'm like, that is not critical thinking. You've done the opposite of critical thinking. You've
done confirmation bias. You've found these things that agree with your worldview, and now you're telling yourself that you've done critical thinking. And I think that's a problem with the simple ideas like confirmation bias. Looking for things in your experience that agree with what you already believe to be true to validate what you think or is not critical thinking.
And so yeah, the thing about like Disneyland characters, like someone dressed as a dinosaur as a cow or a horse, like it should be much more weird to think about somebody dressed up as another species than it is to just be dressed up of someone of the same species, of the different gender, or expressing their gender differently.
So you've been making us think about all of this for so long, Like I will never forget watching you perform in Idle, for those first few episodes where you can came in a Shane and came in as Courtney. Do you know what I thought was really impactful and really a turning point in your career was Ian Dixon being on television at a time that authorized you in a way by supporting you so publicly, allowed you to go further with that story and allowed Australia to unpack
more about it. I mean, I kind of feel like you've been doing this for so long, and it's interesting we talk about politics because I kind of feel like we're going to be I'm going to be talking to you in twenty years time and you're going to be in politics, do you know what I mean? You know, because because it's part of who you are, and the accessibility to explain things to the Australian and global audiences
is so digestible. I feel like it's almost silly that if you didn't go into politics at some point.
It's that funny thing where I think, you know obviously that well I don't know. I mean, Dame Edner went out in glamorous, I guess to an extent, I do wonder like at what point my age will catch up with Courtney's glamour or how Courtney will have and then lots of people talk about politics, and I think like I have a lot more opportunity to do a lot more good right now just doing what I'm doing, rather
than getting sucked into a broken system. But I am fascinated with politics, and I am fascinated with, you know, how society and the media and everything interacts together, and just trying in my own small way to you know, contribute.
Make an impact, kick the time, yeah.
Make it yeah. Like well, I can't quite remember why or where that began, but it's interesting that you mentioned Dicko because I think in a weird way, he's in a weird way, in quite a wonderful way. He was an ally before we really had that term, and that's I think an example of allieship that people might be able to like have contact with.
Where it goes me, I'm in drag might have been a bit challenging for.
Like straight male Australians to understand, but I think Dicko, being a brit had grown up with a different understanding of drag, like pantomime.
Well, he grew up in the music business around a little queer people, and so there was a lot of there was a lot of queer people in English music, not you know, obviously there you know, was a lot of queer music happening, but behind the scenes there's a lot of queer people that Dicko was growing up with. And so when you hear all of that that his mates growing up in his industry early on was all of that, he kind of that sort of marries into what you're saying to me. You know, yeah, he did,
and he ordained you in a weird way. It was beauty. It was amazing television, you know, and you've done so much since then, but it's just so it's such a turning point, you know what I mean.
Yeah, and I think it was cool because queer people can be as visible as they want, but kind of in a weird way, queer people need straight society in order for them to gain acceptance, and that's sort of the pride parades and all of that is about attracting attention and bringing people on board. But it's it's the straight people. It's obviously the queer people who are on the front line sort of changing their minds, who are in the rooms we're having conversations, So it's you know,
changing police and who are visible that doing it. But it's like the straight people coming around to accepting that that sort of brings about the actual change. And I think Dicko was an ally in that way where he said, oh, it's okay, I'm a straight bloke. I'm entertained by Courtney. I'm happy your work with Courtney. My sexuality, my masculinity
isn't threatened by doing so. And you can too, and I think that is sort of role modeling a positive behavior for other people, and I always appreciate him for that.
I always think of it myself as a queer person. I was like, is he doing that on television? Is he ordaining someone on television? And I felt sired, do you know what I mean? Like I felt maybe it's possible to be on television where prior to that, you know, I was hiding away almost like sport, when people being picked, I'm like, don't pick me because I don't want the light on me, don't you know, don't include me because
I can't and I don't belong there. And then that was a real big change, because I don't necessarily know if we've ever had anyone who was so willing to be themselves on television as much as you have been through a Big Brother through all of these shows. However, actually, just a quick point, someone messaged on one of the forums last night, you one Big Brother. You came second on Dancing with the Stars, You've now you came third on RuPaul's Drag Race, and you've now come fourth on
The Mask Singer. It was a really interesting fact. I was like, is it.
Called a duck. No, what are you good? That's fourth and I don't know.
Yes, let's not go cricket references.
Well, I will just look, I'm not being defensive, but I will say I didn't come third on drag Race, and I didn't come second on drag Race. A Door and I were technically top three, but that's a technicality. I'm not sensitive.
Technically, then you came like twelfth on idle. So you've got a few other little, you know, dots to punch in your dance card.
I don't want to fill in. I don't want to fill in five through twelve.
It's never gonna happen, my friend, It's never gonna happen. What was was there a discussion with the producers when they asked you to do this show about whether when the mask would come off, you'd be Shane or Courtney. That really fascinated me because even last night, with the rest of Australia knowing it was you under there waiting for you to take your cowhead off, I was questioning what you would have chosen to do and what that conversation must have been like.
Well, for me, it's all part of the theater of it. I wanted it to be as ridiculous as possible, and like pulling off my cowhead and being Shane underneath, like as a performer as a showman, that doesn't make as much sense as taking off that head and having the biggest hair ever fall out of it, like Charlie's Angel
taking off a helmet. And Karen Green, the executive producer, afterwards, she was like, Oh, I knew you're gonna be in drag, but I just thought you'd have like a little, like small like wig on And I was like, I was not wanting a pussy catwig underneath that cowhead. I was gonna have the biggest, most ridiculous hair possible, Like that's that's what this show is. This show is like bigger and more ridiculous and just silly, and so I wanted to bring that. And it's really hot and sweaty inside
that costume, like like unbelievably hot and sweaty. So I did. I just saw a photo because I was like, how did I do my makeup? I just did my eyes and I put like my primer on and I just did my eyes because they don't sweat as much and because then you bang your head inside the kettle and you scrape off makeup, and so it was easier just to like my foundation on after I had sung my number to getting ready for the reveal, to go and put the rest of the foundation on in case I
got eliminated, and then take the head off. And I remember like banging something my nose on my chin, and I was like, oh, no, am I gonna pull this head off and have like a nose smudged off or but it.
All looked perfect, No, not like per usual with you. It was perfection. I mean apart from walking into the Big Brother House and your dress flying off. I mean yeah, which is still like.
Twenty two years of Well. I didn't do all the Mighty Graar parties in drag, but like all of my younger mighty graar parties I would do in drag. So I do the parade, go to the party. I'd been the irch I and the Horden from midnight until eight am in full drag, sweating dancing, and that prepared me for a career in television of like long shoot days, hot lights. My body doesn't sweat, my face doesn't sweat when I'm in drag, and I don't think that's natural.
I think that's years of I think that's nurture, not nature, of years of Mardi Gras parties and being in drag my skin just being like, you know what will is just not sweat. It'll make it easier for everyone.
You like the Minogues. Do you remember the minogues came out and said minogues don't sweat, they sweat litter or.
Whatever they either. I remember being in Fiji with my then boyfriend and we climbed this like mountain and we got to the top and I looked at him and he was like drenched, and he looked at me and he was like, why aren't you sweating?
And it was this moment where I was like why, Like you look like you've been.
Doused in water, and yeah, I don't know what it is, but I'm grateful.
Probably imagine if you were a really bad sweater, you probably would have had the career that you've had.
No, that's what's Trevor Ashley back.
You bitch. The question I also saw on the on the boards, which was you know, like on the social boards, was this and I feel like if they don't ask it, it would be remiss of me. But did you know over twenty years, I feel like you would have met and interacted with all four of those judges, had you had a personal relationship or at least met and spent some time with all four of them.
Only three. I hadn't met Mel before, but Chrissy and I had met several times and I had done her show. Would I lie to you just fairly recently before that, Husey, I've been on Husey We have a Problem. I've been on Hughesy's you know. I talked to Husy on the Radio Bunch and been on Hughsey we have a Problem. Abby and I were stablemates at Over with our podcasts when we were there, and I've done photoshops and things together.
Mel I hadn't ever met before, but yeah, that was that thing where I was like, you know what next year's LOGI for best Acting should go to the guessing panel of the last singer.
Should have I don't know if that convincing. I mean, thank god one kept guessing you just to allow the audience to know that she isn't drunk. But the rest of them, I was like, you know when they kept saying Trevor Ashley and maybe This is a part of being an LGBTI person, you know. I just I can tell the difference between those two singing voices, so like I just was screaming saying that no, no, no, You're just so different.
Like Trevor Ashley and I am not indistinguishable to the naked ear.
It's just just like so mind boggling to me. Anyway, this has been a much longer chat, but you have definitely unpacked a lot, which I'm very happy with. And honestly, I feel like if I was in the flesh with you, I'd talked to you for like twenty four hours, so you just like it. I'm not bear in Hong Kong.
But before you go, the last question, I ask everyone who joins the podcast, what is something from behind the scenes, something that people wouldn't have seen, maybe kind of like a bit of a funny anecdote about what it's like to take part in this show.
I mean, it's a very pokin dagger behind the scenes. Like it's not like you're all hanging out in the green room with your masks off, hanging out with Toy Jackson and Sandra Sully and whoever, Like you have no idea as a contestant who the other people are until you watch it on television, you don't hear them, you don't see them, you don't that's eagles swinging around my hotel room like like giant birds of prey, like gliding outside the window.
I capture them and make an outfit out of them.
But anyway, no, yeah, so you don't get to see anyone, you don't get to know who they are.
It's all very like it's quite an isolating experience.
It kind of has throwbacks to COVID where you're like locked in a room by yourself getting into drag. But it's a lot of fun when you're out there and sort of learning how to make the costume have its own personality was probably the most fun part, which after the first episode, I was very grumpy because I wasn't getting to be caught in the act and doing the
thing that I loved. And once I got over that and I realized I could get to be the cowgirl and be that, like really lean into that physical comedy with very large gestures and limited dexterity, it was a lot of fun.
I just picture because I know that you're such a perfectionist with what you do. I just pictured there being a mirror in your dressing room and you being able to choreograph parts to see what worked as the cowgirl. Do you know what I mean? Like because all of your movements, it was so funny, and how can you be funny underneath that much latex? You know what I mean?
I put my camera on and i'd practice. I would be like, where are my eyes? My eyes are up here like and then I thought that my ears were like here for a long time, but they were my horns.
And then I worked out like listen as they whisper, and just working out because you're not you can't see, so you're just like poking around the dark, working out like choreographing, like how where your hand goes, or seeing what it looked like when you got on the ground and pounded the floor, and working out all of those things each week, trying to add a new gesture.
I just thought of Rachel Griffis. I don't know if you ever saw this moment, but when she won her Golden Globe, she did this thing where she was like she won it for six feet under quite a while ago she won, you just sort of pulled on an
ear like just as in like being quite silly. And I noticed you did that at one point when the judges were interacting with you, kind of like maybe it was not the carrier, maybe it was the thing, but it gave that same vibes of just, you know, ridiculous, very like, hey, that's a.
That's a very nuanced to comparison. But I definitely remember like scratching my ears like I because I was I was like, I wonder if people are getting like, how dumb this is, like that I'm scratching my ear? Okay, good god, those teams did not go unnoticed.
I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. Can I just say thank you so much for your generosity with your time and talking to me this morning. I think it's fantastic and good luck with the games over there in Hong Kong. I think thank you. Could we have anyone better to represent Australia.
Ohang, I'm looking forward to it. Lovely to see you again.
Yeah, lovely to see you. Take care, I'll chat to you so