CLICKBAIT SUCCESS FOR NETFLIX CREATOR TONY!

It's in the news today, but it was actually on TV Reloaded podcast last week.

I'm I, how would I describe a television set?

Oh Man from a headline grabbing point of view, the hack producer from me says one hundred percent put him in.

Welcome back guys to TV Reload. My name is Benjamin Norris and on this podcast, I go behind the scenes with the biggest players in television. This week mark's an amazing milestone for me as it's my fiftieth episode of the podcast. I've been super lucky with my guests, having people like Andy Lee.

Yeah, great questions, the show's about the.

Game, having Sonya Krueger.

There's a lot of great television out there in Australia.

Two of Australia's finest presenters. But I've also got to go behind the scenes with writers. The truth is when I started writing it, it wasn't had nothing to do with the news and casting agents.

They know from a casting point of view what they need.

And editors because that's what we do as editors where storytellers. Not to forget some incredible executive producers who are making some of the best TV content Australia.

I have been on the program since the beginning and it's kind of in my DNA.

So thanks for joining me each week, and I hope the podcast continues to give you real insight into the magic of television. A big shout out to Channel ten, Channel nine, Channel seven and ABC Australia. I'd also love to thank the streaming platforms Amazon Prime, Paramount Plus, Netflix, Stan and Binge for all of their continued support. I started out with this mission statement to tell factual stories about television, offering you the chance to get right up

From his work.

At Matchbox Pictures to starting his own company, Tap, you would have seen an enormous amount of his work in the industry. People speak so highly of Tony they all want to work with him and they all want to be his friend because of his generosity, his intelligence, but above all, his ability to tell stories so well. Today we'll be talking about the brand new series Clickbait, which is currently out on Netflix. The series is brilliant. It's

But I'll also get a.

Chance to talk to Tony about his passions and his inspirations, which he will unpack in true tonyas style. However, let's get started with today's guest. I'd like to welcome to the podcast. It's Tony Airs.

I had no idea that it would be so popular. Is a propulsive thriller told from the perspective of eight different characters. We have phenomenal people in Australia.

In every episode, you get to know a different side of him?

Or do you both in front of the camera and behind the camera?

What do you make the signs that he was holding I abuse women?

How'd you be a human being with all of those different versions of yourself? Way focus on five million hits I die. I was also interested in that there are other darker sides of ourselves, which are we're being given access to through the Internet?

Hey, Tony, how are you?

Hi?

Van? Congratulations on the success of Clickbait. Did you ever expect the show was going to take off like this?

Absolutely, no idea or you know, it was just you put something out into the world. I've put things out into the world before, and then you know, I had no idea that it would be so popular.

Yeah, well, I think it's just resonating at the right time. What would you say were the influencers when you were delving into this whole who done it? Style of storytelling? You know, what were your influences for.

That I have been an avid watcher of this genre for many years, but I've never actually made one before, So I guess in terms of influencers, I hate to sound self referential, but the Slab.

From one Little Slap ricochets off into this eight episode perspective of everyone's view on what happened.

Whether it's all or bad.

When I was making The Slap, I really loved the format, the idea of these revolving points to you, and I was always curious about how far you could push that format, like how much further you could go, Because in The Slap, we made a show about a misdemeanor really that happens that causes a ripple out effect, and Christian and I Christian White, my co creator, we were just kind of wanted to see what would happen if it was a much bigger event that then, rather than ripple out, just

This is a message for Nick Kinneffer. He's a husband, a father, a brother. He's kind, loving and gentle.

I love you.

So you made a terrible mistake.

Let him come home.

Yes, you don't find a missing person in the first forty eight hours, the chances of finding them alive drops by fifty percent.

There's a new video.

It's worse. Well, a very compelling story, you know, because it just keeps unraveling. And I think it's really funny that you mentioned the slap, because I was recommending this TV series to a friend of mine and I was like, do you know what it is a mixture of these three things. It's a mixture of the Slap, a really good episode of Inspector Morse and Mayor of Eastown. And they were like, great, I love all of those. So I don't know if you've ever seen Inspector Morse before.

Weirdly enough, I mean, I went to a period where I watched a few Midsummer Murders and Agatha Christie's and yeah, so this particular genre has its rules and it's ways of doing things, and I think, you know, I was clearly affected by it. We also talked about Scooby Doo in the writer's room, But.

I mean that's the thing, is like you've got to let when you're watching other people's content, that'll wash over you, I'm assuming, and then you will always borrow things from different areas of your life. I'm really excited because I like Scooby Doo as well. Can I throw that in when I'm doing when I'm offering.

This to someone?

Absolutely?

What was the process like of getting Netflix behind making this series?

Well, originally the show was commissioned by Channel four and then it moved to Amazon, so we had a few sort of homes before then, and unfortunately it didn't stay at Amazon, and so I reset it in America and pitched it to a number of different players in America, and all of them were really interested in it, like it was just an idea that seemed to be of its time. And Netflix made us straight series offer, so was clear that that was the direction we would go to.

Right now, they're kicking themselves if I'm going to be really honest with you, But what were the hiccups with Amazon and Channel four?

Or there were some business issues around Channel four, but you know, like projects are championed by certain people, and sometimes those people leave, and it sort of happens all the time that you know, like, unless you have a champion, you know, really advocating for your show, it's you know, it's very hard to push it into actually being made. So unfortunately, our champions at Amazon left and work for another company, and we've found champions at Netflix.

My dad always used to say to me, never work for somebody who doesn't get you, you know, because then you'll spend way too much time trying to get them to get you instead of just getting the work done.

Exactly.

But do you think the True.

Crime has influenced this popularity in murder mysteries that we're seeing at the moment. I mean, I did mention Merivstown before, but did you think or was True Crime a bit of an influence into making this series.

When Christian and I were talking about the show, I asked Christian to go off and do some research and he opened up this Pandora's Box of real crimes that have been committed because of the invention of the Internet and its intrusion into our lives. And the research document is almost golden in just how eye opening it was how nixt you know, like how the Internet had affected the real world, and we kind of basically made up

I always think of the Internet like the ocean, you know, like being out in the ocean. It's really deep and you really just don't know what is underneath you and the complexities of it, the dangers of it, you know. So I think that the Internet is a really good source material when you're looking at terror, you know, in a way because as an audience and watching this show every episode, I experienced a level of terror. I think it's pretty impressive.

I think the Internet is one of those things where there are amazing things about it, you know, there's amazing things about connectivity, and there are benign things about it. There's so much information, so much learning that we can do. There's also probably just as much disinformation. And I think it's not only affecting our political culture, but I think it's also affecting our personal psyches. And I think that was what I was really interested in making this show.

I think as well, for different people like you said that might not be aware of stranger danger really needs to be applied to being on the Internet. I want to know beyond this particular story, and we'll go back into clickbait in the second, but was this a real opportunity for you to prove to international markets that Australia can make global content just as good as anyone else.

I guess. You know what was interesting about the show was we always designed it Christian and I always designed

Brought in for Clickbay were blown away by how good our Australian crews are. The reason we chose to film at Docklands was because having a world class studio makes it possible for us to replicate the bits that we needed to replicate, particularly around our interiors.

And it's those small details that although people don't notice it, that's what gives us its sense of authenticity.

Well, apart from the benefits for you being that you could film this show in your hometown, what are some of the benefits of making a story like this on Australian soil.

For a producer, I think that you get a more bang for your buck in Australia. Like, you know, we were relatively you know, small budget kind of show, but we made it go a long way. I think. I think for the local industry there are benefits in terms of work, in terms of international exposure, like I think there are those kinds of benefits. I think for Netflix and NBCU it's the possibility of a different way of making shows as well, and so you know, hopefully there

My partner's friend messaged me and said, guys, are you're watching Clickbait?

It's so amazing.

So I was like, great, yeah, I'm already watching it and said that I was going to be talking to you and I said, you know that it was partially, you know, filmed. I didn't know what percentage, but I said, you know a lot of it was made here in Melbourne. And she was like what, And so isn't that an Isn't that a coupe to think that an audience member being an Australian wouldn't even pick up on that.

I'm very happy to hear that because of well, you know, one of your anxieties at the beginning of this is, you know, can we do it convincingly? You know, we had this great American production designer, Lauren Crasco, who was so detailed in the way that she saw the show, made sure, you know, she policed anything that was like inauthentic, and you know, I love her dearly for it because I think that you know, sometimes it's just an accumulation of small details that give away you not being in

She must have been really good at like spot the difference growing up. You know, we you'd have to try and pick those things. Because I was doing that myself, because I mean I went straight. I went into this watching the show knowing that it was yours and knowing that it was made here, so I was really not distractingly, but I was still looking at car number plates and things in the background, you know, and there was never anything I could find.

And the thing that really that's great that makes me happy.

I mean I definitely could say that's the Convention Center, or I you know, could pick up on Melbourne places of significance. You know, I definitely picked up on that kind of stuff. But even the Australian actors that were

I just met with Michael Hasting's father.

He wants to press charges against Kai.

He's just a child.

I am so.

Sorry, Sophie, but it looks like Michael needs surgery. Well that is completely unfair. Can't you do something?

Did you send out to the casting people that the accents had to be top notch? Like you didn't want to go just with anyone who could try and do it? Did you wisit a must?

We had an amazing dialect coach, and we had an amazing sound sound designer. We had really great people who could help us really make sure that every word was as close to American in accents as possible. So you know, we worked really really hard.

Well paid off. And then you have Euro American actors that are in it. You know that we're all brilliant. What was Adrian Grenie like to work with? You know, had you seen his work in Entourage, Like, was there a specific reach out to him.

I mean, I'm a huge fan of Entourage. I think it's one of the you know, iconic TV series. Yeah, Adrian was great. He's a lovely, charming, smart man. He's very handsome, but he's also you know, like very kind of human and you know, we got on really well and we talked about a lot of things. We agree about a lot of things in the world at the moment, how the world is, and we just we connected. So

Guy one hundred percent.

And I think that that is the fiber of this entire production. Is is he a good guy or is he a bad guy?

You know?

And as an audience, when you wrestle with something like that continuously through the show, it's like a pull through and I think he just managed to execute that so well.

My character Nick is not what he seems. In every episode you get to know a different side of him, or do you. So that's up to the audience to try and figure out who exactly is this guy?

How did COVID interfere with the production though, because I know you went into production and then there was an issue.

So what happened?

We shot six episodes and then we were the first Australian production to be shut down by COVID the day before all of these you know, because we're an NBC unit, international production, international studio production, we're sort of part of the American system and there were all these shows shutting

And then how long were you shut down for?

I think about eight months something like that. A long time, and particularly given the nature of this show, given that it's a kind of hybrid. You know, we had people coming in from the UK, we had people coming in from all parts of America, and you know, we were trying to work out whether one whether we could finish the show and two when we could do it if it was possible.

Big budget blockbusters and small screen series are on hold around the world. As Australia moves through each phase on the road to recovery, the film industry is hoping productions can restart.

And the producers were amazing, you know, like Matchbox and Tom Hoffey and Joe Werner and Michael McMahon or the producers. They kind of met three times a week trying to just nut out the logistics and in the end it was kind of a roll of the dice. We decided we're going to give it a go. And at that stage, Melbourne was in stage four lockdown and we were still trying to work out can we do this. We were really lucky because we came out of LoDown lockdown at

And was Adrian available to come back as soon as you needed him or did you tell him to quit all of his other jobs, like, you know, how.

Do you how do you get it? Well, the lead actor to return.

Well, the thing is, there wasn't a lot of work happening anywhere in the world, you know, you know everywhere everyone was affected, but you know, by this pandemic. So as it turned out, when we started filming again, Australia became probably one of one of the two or three safe places in the world to film. And that's when you saw a whole glut of production come to Australia.

Did you have to replace any character actors? Well, any actors were playing characters. No, you've got everyone back.

We got everyone back.

Unbelievable.

It was fantastic, it was and you know, the cast were very loyal to the show. They really wanted to finish the job. They really wanted it to you know. They were great people. You know, we were lucky. We had really really great.

People beyond COVID. Do you think that there will be more shows with American Australian production collaborations now that we've seen that not only can we make it, but people watch it and it's cost effective, Like, do you think we will see a rise in that?

Listen? I think that there will be some ongoing production in that vein. I think absolutely. I think that the American industry is starting up again, and the UK industry is starting up again, and so you know, like I don't think we'll have a glut of those kinds of shows, but I think that we will definitely have occasional shows that do that.

We've had this really amazing and promising reputation for Australian actors globally, and I was thinking, this is a really great opportunity for maybe for us to get that same kind of reputation for our crews, who are just as hardworking and have that similar work ethic. Do you think that we will see some of our most talented content makers being used around the world more frequently now?

I think you know, if you're connected to a show that's considered a hit, I think it really raises your credibility within the industry. Certainly, we have phenomenal people in Australia both in front of the camera and behind the camera.

Yeah, I loved it when you know, you look back at history and you see Jeffrey Rush doing Shine and then he's in all of these you know, blockbusters and he's getting lots of work. Or Jackie Weaver the same, you know, got an Academy Award nomination for one of her roles, and then we get to see her telling global stories, which I think is you know, really great to see and it'd be great for you to see these work colleagues of yours being rewarded like that, I

I think the thing that interested me thematically was the idea of the fractured self, like that we have all these different bits of ourselves, we have all these different identities that you know that we kind of put on like hats or cluck garments or you know, like the true self underneath that is can be broken by all of the different kind of It's like a refractions through mirrors. And I was kind of really interested in the way

One hundred percent?

I think, you know, that's one of the things is when our minds lie to us, we all see the one thing and we all walk away with this piece of information. We all think we know the truth, but it's just our version of the truth. And I think that was the magic as well, which just kept unraveling with this whole story as it kept going on. And I remember having a conversation with my partner about him being on the phone and having a work persona and I was like, I don't I was really allergic to it.

I hope. So you know, you just make work to try to contribute to a cultural conversation and to you know, try to get people to see what you see, or it's a bit of a provocation. The show's also has a morality tale element to it, and it's a bit of a it's a warning that you know, we can't take the information that we receive at face value all the time, and you know we should be aware of that. So, you know, I hope that it does trigger those conversations.

I think it will.

Being in your audience for as long as I have been watching pretty I think I've seen every single thing you've done. You probably need a restraining order against me. But I was going to ask what your favorite shows to watch another TV series over the last twelve months.

I'm sort of a bit of a cliche, really. I think I like the things that everyone else has liked. I particularly loved Mayor of Easttown. I thought that was just a great deep dive into character with such a sophisticated understanding of the genre elements. I thought that they were combined incredibly well, very different from the way we did we tried to do it, but you know, it's very rewarding. And my partner and I just watched The

I missed out and watching that. My partner started watching it without me, and it's his favorite show of twenty twenty one, so he's telling.

Me that it's incredible.

He's like, I'm.

Happy to dip back in and rewatch that whole thing again. Have to check out The Serpent. But yeah, I think that there, I think we must watch similar things. Sandra O's amazing, and I thought, you know, the thing with Mayor of Eastown that really blew me away as well, was I didn't really know too much about it going in,

I think it's it's a testimony to the significance of the arts and culture to you know, how we keep our society sane and stable. And you know, I kind of hope that that's recognized as well at a sort of deeper level that actually, you know that we you know, we just occupy our time on this earth with stories. You know, that's that's actually how we deal with time a lot of the time. I think that that's important that we respect that.

As such an impressive point of your career. You know, I love to know who's still influencing you. Who are your influencers. Is it the executive producers that you work with, Is that the writers? Is it what you're watching yourself? Like, I'd love to know what's influencing your content at the moment.

I am influenced by the world. I sort of, you know, like I'm the kind of person who doesn't take many selfies. I do do it very occasionally, but I sort of am more interested in looking out than in so I kind of whenever I see something in the world that kind of moves or inspires or terrifies me, you know, my automatic instinct is to kind of turn it into a narrative to help me understand it, help me kind

The main road remains closed and there is now no way in or out. Assembly areas are established at the wharf. You are in danger and need to act immediately in order to survive.

So that's kind of an example of how I kind of work.

I loved the word urgent. I think it's really clever. I noticed Michael lucas he retweeted the trailer on Twitter and he used, Wow, this is powerful stuff. You know, it's so urgent to start off with that word didn't sit with me and didn't make them right amount of sense until it did, you know. And I think it is a really clever way of talking about something that

Well, we just felt that it was something that we kind of have to talk about. You know. It's not the kind of subject matter that we can wait for ten years to then sort of look back, reflect back upon, and then sort of unpack. I think that, you know, we haven't got ten minutes. We've got to talk about it today soon as soon as possible.

Well, it looks pretty good. What makes a good writer in your mind, because you know, obviously you're often reaching out and working with all these different people. But what draws you to someone's writing ability?

I think having a distinctive voice and an ability to dramatize the truth, you know, things that are kind of real and or that speak to me as truthful. It also requires a high degree of skill, because to dramatize is very different to expositing. So how do you say something without saying it? How do you create meaning through the things that are unspoken? And how do you create

You know?

How do you make people make sense and still be unpredictable and surprising? And for me, probably the at the pinnacle of all of that is the ability to dramatize or show aspects of human behavior, of being a human being, which I once feel original and surprising but also recognizable. So it's about, you know, unpacking a kind of common truth that we all understand. Like the perfect example is

I remember reading in The New Yorker a story about Meryl Streep and she said that so much of what she would do with acting was to study the nuances the people do in their everyday life and then put them into her performances because people could see themselves reflected back. And I think when writing has done really well and you, as in the audience, feel like you are being reflected back, there's a kinship. There's a connection that happens that elevates

I think good writing is compassionate, and that's what I kind of love about this medium the most. That because compassion is baked into the medium, because we have to see the world from other people's points of view, you know, unless you're doing a monologue. You know, you have to create characters who see things in a particular way, and then because drama is conflict, you have to create characters

What about producers, because I mean, obviously you're aligning yourself with different producers, executive producers in different capacities. You know, do you look for a particular relationship when partnering with executive producers and producers in general?

I think you have to feel a kind of kindredness to the people, like, you know, Like, I think I've reached a point in my career now where you know, like, I have a rule if if you wouldn't want to sit down and share a meal with that person, you shouldn't be working with them. I think that that's I think that's a reasonably good rule of thumb.

I lost a lot of friends by working out, in my mind, not lost them. I stopped sort of catching up with certain people if I couldn't finish a beer while having a catch up with them without thinking I wish that I was at home watching this.

And I was like, that's it.

I'm not catching up with that person ever again, you know, which is a bit cruel, But hey, I.

Think you you know, you have to try to create the sort of space where you can do your best work. You know, so you need to you need to understand yourself well enough to sort of think, well, you know, these are the under these conditions, I can do the best job that I can do. And then then you have to expand that so that other people also have that. So, you know, like and that's my role often in a show. It's to allow people to do their best possible work.

I think you you know, put finding yourself in this space here, you know, being that you're from Melbourne and making global stories. You know, what would you like to see as a next step for Australian television and film, you know, over the next couple of years.

I think we're in a precarious time. Actually, even though there are all these great things happening and we've got so much talent here, we are a small country, you know, where government subsidized country, and we will always be because

And you know, there's all this new generation as well. Absolutely, I've seen two pieces of work just recently of Anatove and I'm just like, how amazing is this woman, like the news reader.

She's just so good in this show.

So I think, you know, we do have all of those people like Nicole Kidman bringing work here, but it'll be interesting to see what the other generation will do on top of that. And then looking for diversity in.

Story, well, you know, in Fires we have Eliza Scanlon and Hunter Page lock Art. You know, like they're both brilliant and they're the two central actors in the whole series.

My last question that I ask all of my guests before they go is what's an amazing story from behind the scenes in some of the shows that you've made or one of the shows you've made that we're as an audience might appreciate.

Well, this is a COVID story, and I feel a little bit awkward about saying it, but I will anyway because it's you than we had an actor six inches between inch, not only between episodes, between scenes, because we shot some of the scenes before our break, and then we had the break, and in that time it came back and he was six inches taller. So he goes up the stairs, he's six inches shorter, comes down the stairs, he's six inches taller, and he goes back up the

I'm living for all of that stuff.

I always think it's so funny, and you know, as creators, you always worry about this stuff that happens behind the scenes and hope that no one ever notices it.

And most of the time they don't.

Also, you know, to a good thing if people don't know, if people don't notice that, if the people do notice it, then there's probably because they've got other things on their mind.

Well, I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to talk about clickbait on Netflix. I hope that if people are listening to this and they haven't seen it, that they decide to go and watch it because there's so much to unpack. It's one of those shows that I think people be talking about for quite some time. And I want to thank you for the diversity in the work that you have been

I hope so I hope people respond to it and like it. That's really all you can just make an offer and if people either accept the offer or they don't, so you know, we've been thrilled with how this show has been received. Honestly, it's kind of mind blowing.

I love thanks so much again. It's been fantastic to be able to talk.

To you, lovely to see you a man.

Thanks guys for sticking around. I absolutely love talking to Tony Yes, and I hope that you guys can let me know what you think in the Fiel feedback. This week on the Box, though, I was lucky enough to chat with Josh and Luke from the Block. I've already posted that episode as my spinoff podcast during the week, and I really would appreciate the feedback on that chat with the boys. Fans versus favorite is really heating up and I really noticed the popularity of the block based