Welcome back to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris, and on this podcast, I'll be going behind the scenes with the biggest players in television. Thanks to all of those subscribers who sent me some amazing feedback on last week's episode with Big Brother winner Maali. He was a fantastic chat and it was an eye opener into the current landscape in reality television. If you missed it, you can flip back and catch up on that episode on all
of your podcast platforms, including my Heart Radio. As you know, I love to recommend other people's podcasts, and this week I've been listening to So Bad It's Good because one of my favorite podcasters, Jacques Peterson, guested on their pod. It's a must for all pop culture enthusiasts, so check that one out. This week, my partner and I have been watching Love Island UK as a precursor to the Love Island Australian series which is about to go into production.
It's really light entertainment and if you're into voyeurism and shameless flirting check it out. You won't want to miss those bikini lines and it's on Channel lines catch up Platform nine now if you want to have a look. Next week, I have Caitlin Shay on the podcast, who is an executive producer of Australian Story on the ABC. After twenty five years of working on the show, Caitlin
is ready to unpack one of Australia's most love programs. FYI, there is actually a back catalog of past episodes on ABC dot net dot Au and if you love stories told, well dip back into those past episodes. I'm sure you will end up as addicted to them as I have been. This week on the podcast, I have Venton Bailey and Randy Barbado, who are the founders of World Wonder. Both of these guys are as inspiring as you could ever imagine.
I personally have followed their work for years. They are a award winning Emmy winners who most would know are behind the global phenomenon of RuPaul's Drag Race. But at their core they are storytellers who have been giving voices to those who need a bigger platform, who deserve a bigger platform. Their documentary film work includes Carrie Fisher's Wishful Drinking, The Eyes of Tammy Fay Monika and Black and White
Gender Revolution with Katie Curic and The Last Beekeeper. They have a mission to tell the truth and to be honest, and their work is simply unbelievable. This week we will focus on their new series Catch and Kill the podcast tapes, which debuts on Binge here in Australia and HBO internationally on July thirteenth. The documentary follows the Harvey Weinstein investigation and explores the systems protecting powerful men accused of awful crimes.
We've never before seen footage from this culture shaking story book. This one into your calendar because the series is groundbreaking and it'll blow your mind in ways that you won't expect. I do want to offer a content warning at this point. There are general discussions of violence against minorities, specific discussions
of assault and rape that may upset some listeners. If you are triggered by some of this content, please contact Beyond Blue, who provides information and support to help everyday Australians. But let's get started with the boys who I chatted with in the US. Welcome to TV, Reload, Venton and Randy.
You know, in all fair we only make films about things we're passionate about.
We're living in a precarious moment when it comes to the free press.
It felt like a really important piece of work.
I said, Ronan Pharaoh has broken the code. He's got the good sound of wise there. And I think it's fair to say that everyone who has come forward, there are many many more who have not.
And there were some disturbing moments where I was kind of shocked by how much he expected things to go his way.
Trump was a bully who simply was never stopped. No one ever stood up to him putting new claims of sexual harassment, assault and rape. And if you don't stand up to a bully, they could well end up being the president.
Hi, guys, how are you both good?
Thanks today?
You know, it's funny with this podcast. I quite often say gooday when I'm talking to people overseas, But the last time I did it, they didn't understand what I was saying. I think they thought I was talking in a completely different language. So I've stopped saying gooday.
It Rue likes to say Ozzy OSSI I know.
And I loved that he did that, and he did it for every episode of RuPaul's Down Under, which I just thought was so fantastic.
Asiasiazzi.
He really did seem to embrace a lot of the Australian culture. But that's not what we're talking about today. We're talking about something else. And I want to say congratulations on this documentary series, Catch and Kill the podcast tapes. It is so compelling and it offers so much detail in such a compelling manner. Randy, are you proud of the finished product?
Oh, we're really proud of the finished product. I mean, it was a very It was a major passion project for Fenton and myself and everyone who worked on the team. I think we were all really moved by the participants and by Ronan's work on the book and on the podcast and on the series. So it felt like a really important piece of work for us.
This is the story of the efforts to uncover the truth about how powerful and predatory man for decades evated justice. It's the story of how media and law enforcement and the world of private espionage protected that man.
Oh I knew there's going.
To be retaliation.
I didn't think there's going to be such.
Collusion, and how in the end all of that wasn't enough in the face of a group of sources who risked everything to expose the truth.
Why did you decide to hone in on this particular story.
Well, HBO came to us and said that they had in the course of Ronan doing his podcast, he had taped the interviews and they were like, could we do something with them? And we took a look at them, and they were just so powerful.
You know.
I think you can you can read a transcript, or you can listen to an audio clip, but when you actually see someone talking about being raped by Harvey Weinstein and the trauma of that experience, and you see them literally reliving it in front of your eyes, it's overwhelming.
When you say sexual assault, what do you mean except what did mister Weinstein do to you? He forced himself on me sexually when it was unwanted. Why are you speaking out about this today? Because I don't want anyone else to have to live with this.
And we just felt it was really important to tell that story. Even though I think people at large know the basic headlines, you know, and have seen bits and pieces of the story, we just felt this was a real opportunity to bring it home for people in a very real way. Harvey Weinstein may be a movie mogul, but he's as Rose McGowan says in one of our interviews, you know, I want the lawyers to look at this because this is something that happens to their daughters, to their mothers, to their sisters.
It's fact. Yeah, that's the end of the quote. Fact And there's nothing more compelling I think when you're telling a story than when you're talking about the truth. When did you guys know that the subject matter was worth a TV series and what did you guys personally want to add to the conversation.
I mean, I think that that you know, we were huge fans of the book, of the original article, the book and the podcast, so for us, the opportunity to amplify the message was kind of a no brainer. I mean, the challenge was how to do it, But I think you know, we we were fans from the get go
and we thought it was an extraordinary story. And the more you learn about it, the more you get beyond the headlines, the broader the story is, the more significant the story is because it's not just the Harvey Weinstein story. It's the story of how that story came to be. It's the story of the threat to investigative journalism that
is going on all over the world. So I think it was always the story that we're very interested in, and then to be presented with the opportunity to make a TV adaptation of the podcast was like.
Where, Yeah, Well, I think that that's what was so powerful about this was that, yes, we get the headline, we know that it's Ronan Parah, we know that it's Harvey Weinstein, but you know, I don't want to take anything away from the viewer, but there is very much that theme of protecting the journalist and in protecting the journalist's integrity, which I thought was so powerfully underwritten throughout the story. How would you describe the relationship that you
have with Ronan Parah now? And I guess what was your take home experience for the both of you.
I think the relationship with Ronan is really one of profound respect. I mean, I think it took an enormous amount of courage for him to do what he did, and also his producing partner at NBC, Rich McHugh, who actually lost his job over this. They put an awful lot on the line, as did the people who spoke to Ronan, the whistleblowers and it was by no means an easy, clear direct path from them coming to Ronan
to the story being published. Even Ambergerts Tiers, who the New York Police asked her to wear a wire and she did, and she got this amazing confession from Harvey Weinstein. You would have thought that would be the end of the story. They would arrest him, charges, trial, locked up, but it wasn't that at all, and in fact, she found herself on trial, sort of smeared in the press.
And you realize that the sort of path of getting this story out in front of the public was a really hard path with lots of twists and turns, and the outcome was never certain. So along answer to your question is just we have tremendous respect for Ronan and all the people he talked to and the people he worked with in getting this story out there, because you know, it's quite possible that perhaps one it might never have come out. You know, just one tiny detail, you know,
Amber Gutierrez wore that police wire. But the reason we heard that tape and Harvey Weinstein badgering her and harassing her is becau she on her own initiative, but her iPhone in her bag on record as well. Once you'd done the wine handed it over, she no longer had the tape, but she had had the presence of mind to make her own version. And it's only because of that that we have that It's extraordinary.
Really, When we told them we had a copy of the recording, Weinstein was shocked. I need to know a person.
I won't do a thing I want to think. Please, I swear, I won't just sit with me. Don't embarrass me in the hotel. I'm here all the time. Please, I'm not going to do anything.
I swear my children.
It's like a run of events. And I think the saddest thing about some of these realities is it's a breeding ground for depression and for ongoing personal issue when we're told not to feel a certain way, and the problem for a lot of these victims was that they were continuously made to feel like they weren't allowed to feel that way. And then in this documentary we get to see the reaction, We get to say see it
then play out over a period of time. Do you think that Harvey played an open game of chess with these players? I mean, you have Nicole Kidman and Kate Blanchette in the front as a diversion and as an attraction. But then he sort of repeatedly attacked or seemed to happen with people who didn't have a large voice or a global platform. Is that a deliberate and sociopathic game that he played on his behalf.
Well, he definitely prayed on vulnerable and innocent women. I mean he definitely was a sort of power play. And yeah, I think it was. You know, I'm not a doctor. I couldn't sort of diagnose it as sociopathic, but it was sick and twisted and exploitative. It happened over and over again. And I think, you know, going back to the courageous women who spoke out, they not only experienced this horrific trauma of either being attacked or harassed or exploited,
they had to live it over and over again. Coming out to speak about that is like reliving that trauma and inviting the media and people to sort of scrutinize. And you know, people aren't always kind.
I thought I was for an hour at a meeting, and then on the way out it turned into anatomy. Was this a sexual assault? Yes, this was a rape.
Yes, For me, I feel like our series is more about all these courageous people that took him down, and the series is a reminder that there can be hope and there are ways to combat these sorts of forces, and that there's there are ways for truth to trump power.
Absolutely. You know, in two thousand and seven, I was living in Las Angela's and a friend of mine caught up with Harvey Weinstein and he told her a story about a very famous actress that was currently working at Miramax. He told this Australian friend of mine, who is an actress, that this Hollywood film star gained her career by performing a sexual act in front of him. It was one hundred percent an offer and an assumption that a quid
pro quo was on the table. How many times that happened in real life prior to this expose a of Harvey we will never know. But my question to you both is do you think this type of documentary will make an impact on the culture of the cast and couch moving forward.
I think it will make a difference. I mean I think that yes. A couple of things really. One is that the extent of Harvey's predation. You're right, we probably never will know, because I think something that is examined by the people in the series is very much the pros and cons of coming forward and how they deliberated about whether to come forward or not, and the tremendous
anxiety about doing that. And I think it's fair to say that everyone who has come forward, there are many many more who have not, and that's no shade to them. I think it's it's an incredibly difficult thing to do,
takes great courage, and it's extremely risky. I don't think it's not all upside by any means, but I do think there is a rising tide and a sense that enough is enough, and there is a sea change, and I think that that's why you have the me Too movement, which I think has been largely triggered by this Harvey Weinstein scandal. But it's absolutely a current story. It doesn't mean that all the work is done and all the
bad guys have gone. I think the problem in America is that the bully type is tolerated, even lauded, and has been given a free pass for far too long, so to an extent that it's almost become institutionalized. And I think you can look for proof of that no further than the president we had for the last four years. I mean, Trump was a bully who simply was never stopped. No one ever stood up to him. And if you don't stand up to a bully, they could well end
up being the president. And the cost of that is inestimable. The number of lies lost, wrecked, destroyed. And let's not forget Trump is someone who's been accused by twenty five or twenty six women of rape and assault and harassment. So it's not just the hundreds of thousands of lies lost because of complete incompetence in the face of a pandemic. It's also sex crimes as well. And he's still out
there walking free. So I think there's a long way of saying I think there's a tremendous amount of work still to too here.
We just hope that this kind of work does highlight it, you know, that does start to draw a line under it. I mean, we never will ever erode or eradicate the villains in the world. It's very hard to do that. But to be a good documentary filmmaker. How much are you guys allowed to have a bias? I mean, no matter how guilty, do you try and restrict your presentation in any way.
You know, in this instance, for this series, we've made many documentaries. This series is based on some incredible reporting and some well sourced and well researched investigative journalism, so
we have no hesitations about the truths within it. So you know, in all fairness, we only make films about things we're passionate about, about things that we feel stories that we feel are important to share about people who either inspire us or who we feel need to be heard, and this is absolutely an example of all of those things.
Well, the success of true crime and unpacking criminal cases has a lot to do with making the audiences feel like that they are detectives, that they are the ones solving the crime. How did you plan and produce this story and what tactics did you try and use to keepe the view enthralled?
Well, you're right, it is a true crime story. But I think sometimes true crime gives too much space to the criminal and sort of inevitably puts them on a platform. And I think, funnily enough, in this story, the least important person is Harvey Weinstein, and our approach was very much to focus on the victims, and so each episode is very much about a different person, whether it's Amber Gutierrez in the first episode who wore that wire, or Rowena Chu who was an assistant to Harvey Weinstein who
he assaulted. These are all individual episodes in the series. Another episode is the reporters ken A Ladder and Kim Masters, who tried to break this story for many years. So I think that that was our approach is a sort of really, we're telling the story of the story, how the story came out, and yes there's a true crime perspective, but we're not really interested in giving space to the criminal.
We're inspired by all of these whistleblowers and journalists and Rich Mchue, the producer who worked with rown In. They're the heroes of the story and they're you know, the hope is that they will inspire others. The hope is that their strength and their voices will inspire people to either support other whistleblowers or to speak truth that they may have been anxious about speaking in the pasts.
Interestingly enough, you know, watching this documentary series after it finished, it bled into my life in so many different ways. I did watch it twice, and I had the same reaction both times as I finished it, and it made me want to be a better person. I don't know how that is possible when the subject matter is sometimes so bleak, but the ability for these courageous people to share their stories was just so palpable, Like it was
just so courageous. I don't know. I just walked out of it afterwards, being like, I want to prepare my interviews better, I want to cook my dinner better. And I think that's such a strange response, don't you think to watching something like this, I.
Think it's very kind of you to say that. I also think, in a sense, I do think the story
connects to all of us. I don't think by any means all of us have been subjected necessarily to sexual harassment, but I do think we all know what a bully is, and I think that if anyone walks away strengthened and inspired to stand up to a bully, I think that's great, because I think there is no time like the present to stop a bully, and if you don't stop them, they're just going to go on and abuse more people and run for president.
Right.
Call them out, you know, call them out before it happens. I think that's the message. You know, how many times do you think that you or anyone can hear a story before it becomes true or in this case, becomes investigated.
Well, you know, it's an interesting situation, like just you know, Ronan's just written a new piece in The New Yorker all about Britney.
Spears and the the Conservativeship.
Yeah, conservativeship, which is what it's been thirteen years. And I do feel with her recent court appearance there's a sense in which she's being heard. But then on the other hand, you know, the judge ruled not to dissolve the conservatorship, and then you've got Bill Cosby who's just been you know, whose case was just overturned. You know, it doesn't change the fact that he drugged and raped multiple women.
And he admitted to it. You know, like that's the hard thing, you know, like there's a confession on the record at some point, and then you're trying to change the narrative. It's it's terrifying to think that these things can happen now, you know, people in positions of power have been protected by fear that they install into their victims. Do you think that people these days can't get away with as much because of the visibility allowed, you know,
or available due to the Internet. You know, here we are, I'm in Melbourne, Australia talking to you guys, which is kind of amazing. But do you think that now because of the Internet, that that is allowing people to be I don't know, to take away some of that private fear that gets installed into them because there are means to be able to share your story potentially.
Yes. At the same time, though, I think you've got to bear in mind that, you know, fear is still being used to control people and intimidate them into silence in all sorts of ways, you know, And and I think that's the thing again to fight back against and that you know, the Internet can be It's great that you and I can have this conversation, you know, But at the same time, the Internet can also spread lies and false and full stories and be used to intimidate people.
And I think that Trump demonstrated how you can pervert truth and corrupt truth actually quite easily using the Internet.
And you know, power and tyranny is like a virus, and there are variants, and it's incredibly adaptable and so that you know, while there may be different means to spread truths, there these same means are They are to spread untruths and to be used and corrupted by people who have, you know, whose goals are not in the best interest of anyone other than themselves.
I want to offer you guys a scenario that I would love your interpretation on. You know, there are two people in a room and they sort of both walk out, they both witness the same thing. How many truths are there? And how many ways can we interpret the truth?
Everyone? Everything is so subjective and two people can see the same thing and have a completely different perspective on it. I mean, you know, it's interesting because as documentary filmmakers, we've been making films for a very long time, and every single one of them is about an idea or a person or a group of people who we are passionate about, whether it was you know, the eyes of Tammy Fay or Monica Lewinsky in Black and White. And we never we never pretended that we were coming in
as these completely objective filmmakers. We've always been direct and upfront that you know, there is a point of view here and we're always open to the possibility of that point of view changing and the process of making the film. But we're documentary filmmakers. We don't consider ourselves an investigative journalists. Ronan is an investigative journalist, and this series is based
on his work. So our job was to represent his work, which we were very passionate about, and his work I believe is closer to representing objective truth than most documentaries are, because objectivity subjectivity. It's you know, you pick up the camera, whatever way you point it, you immediately have a point
of view. This project is precious because of the work it's based on, and because of Ronan himself, the conversations he's had with these people, his ability to combine compassion and empathy with you know, such a kind of incredible intellect. He's put together something incredible. And Fenton and myself, along with these incredible artists, we've worked with, editors and composers. I hope that we've been able to take the work
that he's done and amplify it. You know, we never had an agenda other than to kind of broaden the potential audience for it.
Well, your work consistently offers a crystal clear vision of the truth. I mean in everything I've ever watched of yours. And as I said to you at the start of this, I've been in your audience for so long and I love your work because it's simplictic. It has a simplistic but almost perfect tone to it, you know, a vision which you know so much clarity is given to the audience that sometimes we can feel drunk on the truth because you don't miss a beat. You know, it's actually
genius in so many ways. What kind of mission statement do you both work by? And you know how much scrutiny do you have over the over the fine edges of your storytelling?
Well, I think Renn and I like we are very passionate about what we do, and I think that we only do things that we really care about. And and I think, you know, sometimes we wondered, gosh, what does connect you know, Timmy Fay with Monarcher in Black and White, with Catch and Kill podcast tapes? And I think it is that sense of outside of voices or voices that
are marginalized or ignored. And I think that you know, as a couple of gay guys, is we feel that you know, have grown up feeling that marginalization, and I think that that feeling of being an outsider, and I think we just want to tell the stories that don't get told. And I think that.
Giving the minority a voice, you know, I think that that's something that I can see in so much of your work is I can feel that understanding. I can feel that under I can I can feel the knowing or your own journey in the fact that you are giving a voice to the minority and then letting the
majority sort of digest it. I mean, you both have brought the LGBTI community space just so much joy with RuPaul's drag race And a question that I have personally, and I just would be remissive me not to ask you one question about RuPaul is how much has this phenomenon exceeded your expectations.
It's crazy, the phenomenon of the show has exceeded expectations. Nomanon of Rue Paul has not, because at the heart of the show is Rue and his message, and everybody say love and that spirituality and that curiosity is real, and so are the looks and the hair and everything else. But it's the combination they say they want to do all this stuff in life, but they want to hold on.
To all of the baggage. But to be able to move forward, you've got to be willing to let someone.
You've got to be willing to let all of it go, really, you know, And so.
Did Rand and Fenton help you do that?
Absolutely?
Yeah. I don't want to compare a Ronan with Rue, but there is a similarity in like, these people who are incredibly compassionate and empathetic on the one hand, but have this also have this intellect. So I do think that that the show, the phenomen of the show has been surprising, but the success of the show there's room at the heart and then it's all about these queens,
these queens you fall in love with. That's why it's gone on and on and on and will probably for a while because there's planning more out there, and well.
You've come to Australia, you know, like it's in you know. The interesting thing about the story is globally expanding it. But then also it's so interesting now that it came to Australia. And I understood because I'd met some of the queens on the show before that it's interesting that you're going down these roads and finding people from rough track, you know, like it's in people who have had it hard and then elevating them and putting them on a platform.
That's powerful, you know, you know, that's actually going beyond just going to a country and retelling the story, you know, just keep going down those parts and allowing people that probably never thought they could be on television to be on television. That's powerful.
People who've always deserved to be on televison. Exact, they are talented, if not more than any movie star or pop star or TV star. We've always felt that way. We've always you know, we'd rather be at the local drag club than on a red carpet in Hollywood.
Yeah, that talent in our street is phenomenal, and it's you know, it's just been the factor that has been ignored for so long, is the opportunity that drag race has been able to take advantage of. But it's you know, look, it's the same thing in a way. It's like, you know, a drag queen. No one becomes a drag queen accidentally and finds themselves on a stage. It takes courage and guts and real determination, often to the extent of you know, you are rejected by your family, you know, you're kicked
out it. So many of those queens have been through so much to be who they are, and I think that's what Renn and I respond to, is that that authenticity and that that determination to be themselves and not to be bullied by other people into one thing or another.
You know, I think it's a message of being true to yourself because I mean, even if you go through a lot of your work, you know, with wishful drinking with Carrie Fisher, you know, there's just actually just so many I could list, I could list to so many of them, but these people that are undeniable truth tellers and that are not going to apologize for it, which you know, I think is some of the strongest messages that we can give young people.
They inspire us. I mean, those people is I think that's why Ranny and I do this, is because you know, we've learned so much Tammy fay ord Us so much, Carry Fisher sort of so much, Monica Lewinski. I mean, they are truth tellers and they're inspiring and we are so grateful to them because in telling their story to some extent, we've been able to learn from them.
Well, one question I have which I ask all my guests before they go, and that is, what's an amazing story from behind the scenes that we as an audience would appreciate that we may not have seen.
That's a really good question. It was an unusual project though, because it was all done so remotely. No, it's hard to think of a behind the scenes moment because as a group, we've never really been together. We've all been like in our different spaces.
We did film, There was a lot of filming. Most of it was in the basement of World of Wonder, with everybody masked up, and a lot of experimentation ink drops into water and ice cubes into glasses and you know stuff that I mean, we love doing that kind of stuff.
I mean, it is so strange. We have not met a single person in the series other than Rona, right, I mean face to face Brandy. I met Harvey Weinstein once and in passing and it wasn't it's so weird, like nothing to do with this project. But even we were at Sundance and was barreling down Main Street and you just the ck factor was I don't know, I just just I personally always thought he was a repulsive person.
I've been in your audience for so long, and I could all continue to be and thank you for telling such amazing stories, and I will all forever be in your audience.
I hear you, thank you for watching it. That's so touching.
Thank you,