It's in the news today, but it was actually on TV Reload, the podcast last week thatirline. Welcome guys to TV Reload. My name is Benjamin Norris, and this is your podcast to get all the inside goss on the popular TV shows you may be watching from around the world. Undeniably, our TV sets are a major part of our home entertainment and very little is known about how our favorite
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in the production of the show. This episode marks the official start of twenty twenty three season of TV Reload, and I'm kicking off with Network ten's Australian Survivor Castaway, Benjamin Law. Benjamin Law is an Australian author and journalist. He is best known for his book The Family Law and the TV series of the same name. He is an activist and an LGBTI hero, and I'm so excited
to have a chat with him today. Benjamin Law is certainly the unlikely casting we did not see coming, and today we will find out why and how he said yes to Australian Survivor.
I've been a fan of the show, both the American and the Australian version, for a very very long time.
Was he worried to lose control of his narrative and let produces show an unfiltered side of him?
Whatever edit I get, there's a very easy path for them to give me a villains edit.
Is he worried that Australia's opinion might change after the show.
There will be moments where we're like, oh my god, just let the earth swallow me whole right now.
We will find out what he thinks of Australian reality TV in general.
There's really bad reality TV out there, and there's really good reality TV, and I think Survivor is the cream of the crop.
I will also ask if he would ever do this kind of reality TV again.
Look give Australian Survivor called again, I would I would consider it.
We will also get some pretty exclusive stories from Benjamin Law, and I feel like this chat it's the perfect way to kick off the twenty twenty three season of endemol Shine Australia's Australian Survivor. However, we should probably get started and bring Benjamin Laura into the podcast. And guys, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Hi, Benjamin Law, how are you?
I'm good. Benjamin Morris, how are you?
I'm very well. And I'm kind of laughing because this is a bit of a Benjamin Sandwich for us today, isn't it.
I think it's a ben Lasagne, given how many bends exist in our orbit. But that's another conversation for another time.
That's a different podcast. And you know, this is really something that I didn't see coming. You know, someone told me that Benjamin Law was doing Australian Survivor and I was shocked to my very foundation. I mean, it's brilliant, but honestly, it was a huge shock. Yeah.
When you say that sentence out loud, it doesn't sound correct, does it. Like? I had this conversation with it with a colleague early today in a meeting and she's like, am I right in seeing and saying that you are on the next season of Survivor because I've seen you post about it, I've seen the ads, but my brain still doesn't want to believe that's right. It feels like
a very elaborate prank. And I told her if that was a prank, it would be the most elaborate prank in history, flying me two small stage in the show. There's a lot of moving parts with this particular prank.
How much did you need a free holiday to Fiji to agree to doing something like this?
Well, previous seasons have been shot in Fiji, but this season we're going back to where it all began because Survivor officionados might remember that seasons one and two of Australian Survivor were shot in Samoa and hasn't actually been back there. And then the last two years, as we've been muddling our way through a pandemic, the last two seasons have been in the Australian Outback. So this is actually not just a return to an overseas location, but
a return to beautiful Samoa. So you've got someone from season one, Sammy Webb, who's like, I recognize that beach, I recognize where this challenge is it's quite nice that for this season, season eight, we've come full circle.
Are you happy of being that it's in wetter climates as opposed to being in one of those seasons that was in the desert.
Let's just say, I don't mind the wetness, but the wetness that you'll see us in Dua was not expected at least for how long that wetness lasted. Well, it really sounds like we're just, you know, going on about wetness a bit, which is really graphic, but we are talking about the weather. It does very early on affect our mood, our game, our ability to function. It's it's actually quite funny in retrospect, but you'll kind of see our brains and possibly our bodies rot as a result
of that weather, which is actually quite lovely. If you're in Samoa with you know, a hotel, if you're in a room, you don't get those things.
On Australians, how did this come about? I mean you have to tell me, so you're at home the phone calls? Did you apply? Everyone wants to know how does Benjamin Law end up on Australian Survivor.
I've been a fan of the show, both the American and the Australian version, for a very very long time, to the point where sometimes when I talk to fellow Survivor fans and I tell them the fact that I got into the show in the single digit seasons, like I'm talking, I think I got into it season four, they look at me and they ask, how old are you? That's a fair question, because, as it turns out, in the Heroes tribe, after Jerry Gielch, I was the second
oldest member of our tribe. It's a young person's game, and I'm not so young anymore. I was a huge fan of the Australian version, really really loved seasons that say, Pierre Miranda one and Haley Leek is obviously my queen. But I was actually having conversations about possibly being on a reality TV show and I was like, look, that's not really up my alley. Respect that show, but not
quite for me. But hey, if Australian Survivors on the table, I said, jokingly, get them to give me a call sometime. And I think word got out and people thought the idea was either so delicious or ridiculous or both that eventually I did get a call and said, hey, are you serious, because we might be able to make something happen. And then I went through the whole interview and vetting process that everyone goes through, and long story short, because
it was a long story. I had a few hiccups there along the way, but then it all became official, and I loved that I was able to do it first season back in a tropical paradise.
You know, interestingly enough, you are a massive hero of mine, and so this theme of heroes versus villains is just so perfect for you. Your advocacy for the LGBTI community, amongst other causes, is one hundred percent worthy of this hero this hero title.
That's really nice of you to say. I'm not sure if any of those skills necessarily translate to being on an island and building shelter and fires from scratch when you're doing really huge physical challenges up against elite athletes. But after I watched Brains Versus Braun, which was two seasons ago, also starring George and Haley, who are back for this season, I realized, actually, this isn't a game
that's just about brute strength. Australian survivor probably has a reputation for being more physical than say the American version of the show, But I think over time it has shown a way for people like your Pa. Miranda's like your Hailey leaks to win. Haley's very physically capable, strong, and has incredible endurance that you wouldn't expect as viewers
of her original season now know. But I do think there was a pathway to victory, and I just thought, I want to see what happens when you put someone like me in that environment, and by that environment, I mean a place that's completely not my natural habitat.
Do you think the Australian Survivor community is going to be surprised by your time on the show? Actually, will all communities and audiences be surprised by what you bring to this series?
I think there have been surprises all around, so say, from communities in which I inhabit. I work in the arts and the media. I have an academic past and history as well, and I think some people who haven't even really been exposed to that much reality TV in my orbit think, oh my god, I've never watched that show? Are you a part of that? I've seen the ads. This might be the first season I watch and I'm like,
do watch it? Because there's really bad reality TV out there, and there's really good reality TV, and I think Survivor is the cream of the crop. It's not just about physical prowess, although it does have a lot of that. It's about politics, it's about strategy, it's about personality, and it's about people and I love stuff like that. Then there have been other people from say the Survivor community, and I think they know that I've been a fan for a while, so I think there seems to be
a bit of warmth there. There's another dimension of surprise as well, which as I'm cast as a hero and like you say, I guess for the work that I've done with queer advocacy, people might see me in that way. But the last promo that's come out a grab of mine that's doing the rounds is I'll smile to your face and I'll burn your house down while you sleep.
And I don't think that some people who might be familiar with at least one aspect of my public persona know that there's a little bit of a mercenary aspect in me. But I think queer people know that in order to survive in a world not built for us. You do what you have to, don't you.
I'm really looking forward to watching you lean into that. I mean, I love people who give themselves up to this type of reality television. And you know, a good question to ask you about reality TV is what's your knowledge of it? I mean, are you a fan of survivor you've a fan of all of these shows? I mean, is this sort of pop culture something that you knew a lot about?
So I feel like it's almost bad manners to mention on this podcast that I co host a radio show for ABC that comes out as a podcast too, and that's about pop culture. It's called Stop Everything, and my co hosts, Beverly Wang and I we do everything from you know, an art house movie that's nominated for the Oscars, right through to season seventeen fifty four of RuPaul's Drag Race. And I think within the reality realm, there's stuff that is arguably a little bit mindless. And I don't mean
that in a bad or pejorative way. I mean that's it's light and you don't have to think too hard, and there's a place for that. And I also think there are reality TV shows that tell us about the world that we live in. Survivor is an obvious example. I mean, sometimes I think there's not that much difference between Australian Survivor and Australian Parliament. They're just wearing suits and ties.
I just was wondering if you were worried about losing control of your narrative because you're giving producers a lot and going on reality TV can be really scary because there is a lot of footage that's been shot and you don't really know what they're going to choose to show us. Were you worried about what we will see and could this change the way that Australia has been seeing you?
Yeah, you're absolutely right. You don't have the final say in what goes on the screen. And when the show broadcasts on January the thirtieth, episode one, that will be the first time that any of the contestants, that any of the survivors have seen the audience is seeing. We're all going to be seeing it at exactly the same time, and I'm pretty sure that for all of us, every single one of us, of the twenty four contestants, there will be moments where we're like, oh, my God, just
let the earth swallow me whole right now. And I've been joking with the others that I'm really looking forward to just cringing our way through this with you. Like the cringing that we're about to experience might be the ultimate insurance test. And I think that's a way to see it, because it might be karma coming back to me in a way. Ben, Because I am a TV screenwriter,
I've been working as an executive producer. I make TV, but usually on the scripted side of things, and I've always thought it's particularly cruel that the actors with whom we work are usually the last ones to see their performance. They are like us. They will see their performance when the rest of the audience see their performance. And I've always got terribly about that. And so I came into this TV Project's Australian Survivor knowing that you know, and
I thought, well, fair cop. Like they these people who make year after year of amazing Australian reality TV. They know what they're doing and we are here to give them good material. And whether whatever edit I get, there's a very easy path for them to give me a villains edit. There's a very easy path for them to give me A heroic edit, haarrassing edit, a hilarious edit. I was shooting this almost in the back of my mind, going oh that is so unhinged what just happened. But
you know what, that will be great TV. And I hope, I hope they use just what happened. So I'm not naive, but I am not relaxed either. But I am really looking forward to seeing what they've done with so much material, Ben, because they have cameras on us twenty four to seven that there is literally someone shooting us as we sleep, So yeah, you can make a lot of stories out of that, and we're all here for stories, right.
Can you give me, on a scale of one to ten, how nervous are you about what we are about to see?
Oh? It really depends on the day, and I think like some days I'm like super relaxed, but then I wonder, am I in denial? Am I gas lighting myself? And I'm just like I'm just also sometimes like, oh God, they are going to show that, aren't they. Like when I was doing terribly in some of the physical challenges, I'm like, yep, I would put that on TV because
that was embarrassingly hilarious, you know what I mean. But simultaneously, if you've been online long enough, and you and I have been, everyone will have their own opinions of you. And I'm not terribly you know. That is not an alien experience to me. So other people being in control over your narrative, affirming set opinions about you, that's something I'm used to. That's not me going through that for
the first time. I think for some of the other survivors it will it will be their first time, but of course half of the cast are returning players, and they know that once it goes to air, feelings change, and we're ready for that as well.
Well. I think that you are a trailblazer, and to be a trailblazer you have to be comfortable standing outside of the crowd and backing yourself. You know, you've witnessed public scrutiny before and you've been able to defend yourself. And I think if you do something that's kind of nutsa and people apolarized by your behavior, I think again you'll be able to defend yourself.
Hmmm. And I also think we contain multiple facets as well, Like I think when I look back at my game. There are heroic moments, there are villainous moments, and even though this is heroes versus villains, I can tell you right now we're going to see heroes doing villainous acts. We are going to see people from the villain tribe being absolutely heroic. And you know, the writer in me, Ben rejects the binary. We contain multitudes as human beings.
But it might be a cliche to say, but I think it's such a good theme this year because the expectations versus the realities of who we are going into this game are going to be toppled in very interesting and fascinatingly human ways.
Can I just quickly backtrack a little bit? I think audiences will be surprised. I didn't ask you this before, but what was the reality show that you were originally approached to be on? I mean allowed to tell me that.
Well, look, we can rule out Real Housewives of Melbourne. I wouldn't have been cast on the same show as Angelie Row for instance. I don't qualify for many reasons, and that's just not coming from a place of low self esteem people. But I am mindful that I don't want to say the other show because it's a really good show that a lot of my friends have actually been on. It's a show I respect, but it's not the kind of show that I would necessarily watch. And
that's kind of my rule nowadays. I say yes to things that I'm already a fan of, which is why I said yes, yes, that, yes to this thing that has horrified a lot of people in my life. They're like, what I did, just so he yes to that, especially when I came back having lost a lot of weight and dignity.
Did everyone in the cast know who you were? Because to me, you're the biggest name in the cast, But did all of the people know who you were? And did that affect your gameplay?
Absolutely not? And this isn't coming from a place of modesty or false modesty. Even I didn't expect them to either. You know, Survivor always has its share of athletes and jocks and people from a realm that I'm not necessarily familiar with. So one of the biggest players this season is David's a Hirakas who is you know, a god on the AFL field. And I don't provoke my citizenship people, but I don't watch that much AFL, So it was a learning experience for me to be in David's orbit
and to learn about his realm. I stopped watching Home and Away when I was a teenager, so I wasn't familiar with Shannie Vincent and her work. Like she's really well known here and abroad as well, not just for her work on Home and Away but elsewhere, and I wouldn't expect her to know my work. I mean, you
probably know me through my queer advocacy. But if you're not really part of the queer community, if you're not tapped into the Asian Australian community, if you're not you know, a huge reader necessarily, or you haven't watched you know, the family law on SBS like I have, I have my thing gives him many pies, but that's not necessarily always a mainstream pie. As I'm saying these words, they're quite disgusting. Mainstream pie. What a disgusting phrase. But do
you know what I mean? Like everyone's everyone's a kind of a fish in their own separate ponds. And I think that's why the casting this year in particular has been so good, which is what happens when you throw a Jillarou, who has to drive two and a half hours to her nearest grocery store, who lives in central Queensland, alongside this inner city tertiary educated homosexual with a PhD, who literally lives above a grocery store in the middle of the city. And you know, I'm referring to Page there,
who's just the most remarkable human being. I've never met anyone like her. When you see her, you would just think, as we thought on the island constantly, a star is born because there is no one else like Page. But what happens when you put those two people together. We have very few opportunities in life to be thrust into a situation where we have to spend time with people who are not people would necessarily choose to spend time with.
And what I love about Survivor is being surprised, both as a viewer and now as a contestant as to what happens when you throw these different creatures into a very very stressful situation in intimate confines, you know, like we were spooning each other strangers on night one, Like what other situation compels you to do such a thing?
I love watching people from all walks of life, being forced to be together and then seeing how they get along. I mean, reality TV has been in Australia for over two decades and when it started it was more of a social experiment type of format. I think Australian Survivor, in my mind, is one of the only few shows that is still very much the human experiment, you know, the real fly on the wall type of entertainment.
And I think you're absolutely on the money, because there are some shows I watch sometimes on reality TV that are so samy, not just in terms of you know, backgrounds, but also in terms of temperament as well. You're casting for the demographic that's just watching, so you can see the kind of cogs turn. But when I think of the casting on this show, We've got a former Real Housewife of Melbourne. We've got a pilot who has saved people's lives and has endured kind of, you know, many
many instances of personal tragedy. We've got a Golden Boy surf life saver. This is very reductive, of course, because you know, as even as I point out these people's traits and perhaps their public brands, they almost seem cartoonish. But it is a kind of a delicious entry into people who are very complex, very surprising and when push comes to shove, behave in very surprising ways.
What sort of physical training did you do? I mean, if I was going to be doing and survivor, I would be getting a personal trainer, I'd be beefing up. Did you do that or did you want to go in there just as you know yourself, like you've just been plucked out of the everyday, you know world that you live in.
We know this is a podcast, so it's not a visual medium, but anyone who has seen me knows that I am not the biggest guy in real life, Like I'm short, Asian, pretty skinny, and compared to like Sammy Webb, Matt Sharp, David Taharraka, Sean Hamson, especially these absolute gods of physical prowess, the let's just say, the visual contrast
will be very, very funny. So coming into the show, Yeah, there's a total montage sequence that exists of me getting up at six am every morning working with a trainer who is also my physical who's also my physiotherapist, and he was I initially brought him on to help me train in a way that didn't aggravate an inn injury, but he got the sense that I was training for something and got really really involved, and over that time I put on a lot of weight. I was doing
protein shakes. My god, my trainer said, look, I'm going to train you like an earlly athlete. My body's not built for that stuff. But I did all the stuff that athletes are supposed to, you know, put on good weight because I knew I would lose it really fast on the island. And what I discovered then is like that life is not for me. But I went into the show the biggest I've ever been, which when you see me on screen you'll laugh because you're like, that's big,
What the hell? But it had afforded me to starve a bit, which is what the show puts you through, because we're only eating rice and beans and anything we can forage off the island, which, as it turns out, is not a huge light, although we were very lucky to have coconuts out there.
I want people who are listening to this, who may not necessarily know you, to get a bit of an understanding of the magnitude of Benjamin Law. So I thought I would ask you this question. You know, you've given a voice to the LGBTI community for so long. What do you think needs our attention the most at this point, you know, looking off the back of say, the same sex marriage equality.
Debate right now, I do get this sense that there are people within and without the queer communities that think, oh, same sex marriage was achieved, ding ding ding boss level. Fight for LGBT rights is over, victory daylight comes in, and everything's fine in the world of queer people and queer rights. And when you talk to young people especially, that's really not the case, and especially for young gender
diverse people. I think it's getting better for say, same sex attracted young people, but even then, there are still a lot of stories of non acceptance from families and even schools. You know, there is still legislation state by state that allows institutions like schools and for older people, you know, hospitals and nursing homes to actually discriminate on
the basis of sexuality and gender. It even allows you to discriminate on the basis of whether you're an employee or not on the basis of your sexuality and gender. I also worry about the culture wars that are swarming around gender diverse, gender questioning, and transgender and non binary kids and teenagers as well. Like one, I think it's a little bit creepy for grown adults to be like, oh, like, what's going on underneath their skirts and pants? Like their
kids and teenagers just leave them alone. I think what we need to do is really support those people, and I do feel hopeful that this country at least hasn't fallen in a total trap like it has in the US and the UK, where the wars over this sort of stuff are really frothing. At the same time, you know Minus eighteen, which is an amazing lgbtiq A plus charity that really aims to support teenagers and kids from
quick communities. They had to shut down a social event recently at the end of last year because it was literally targeted by neo Nazis. So sometimes I think we might want to think we're allowed to be relaxed, but the twin of being relaxed is complacency. And if you're complacent about the young people of our community, I think that really really puts them at risk of damage. Those are the people I worry about.
I think that's true. I think that's very true. And I thought that you and Sally Rugg did an amazing job during the plebiscite. Do you think that there was any fatigue after that battle, you know, was finally won.
Well, first of all, Sally's such a dear friend of mine and I wouldn't even put myself in the same level of her. And again this isn't out of modesty, but Sally was there actually agitating politicians and agitating for legislative change as her job in her spare hours, whereas I found myself kind of thrust into the spotlight. And to be honest, on a personal level, coming into that campaign, I was like, well, same sex marriage, I don't think it's really for me, so maybe this isn't really my fight.
But as that debate raged and roared, I just found myself so infuriated by the stuff that people were allowed to say that they wouldn't have been able to say if that debate didn't exist in the first place. And you find yourself on the back foot, you find yourself in a situation where you don't want to say anything wrong. You know, you don't want to represent the community poorly.
It was a period where so many queer people were stepping on eggshells, and at the same time I found it really disheartening that the queer community couldn't represent ourselves in the myriad ways in which we are. You know, some people are polyamorous, some people are trans, some people
have relationships outside of same sex marriage. That it felt like no one was allowed to talk about those things because you had to put on the hat of respectability so the straits and the cisgender people would accept you, and I think that costs everyone.
I was kind of leading you to that question because I wanted to ask you if we had that playbiscite again, what do you think the public vote would look like. Do you think the numbers would be up or do you think they'd be down?
Oh, I think it would absolutely increase. And I think the numbers I don't have them on top of hand,
have probably bear that out. Like now that same sex marriage is legalized and the world didn't end, and the world didn't end, and people didn't marry the Sydney Harbor Bridge and you know, Tony Abbott didn't marry his bike mates or whatever Kevin Andrews said was going to happen, Like those absolutely ridiculous arguments proposed by Abbott and Abets and Kevin Andrews, like they just haven't come to pass right, And so I think people have moved on with their
lives if not attended same sex weddings or been ambiently aware of same sex wedding and know that it's not a big deal.
I think that we need a reality show about gay weddings. They are just two fabulous and I feel like there's just too much gold content to mine, you know, speaking of reality television and shows in the future, after doing Australian Survivor, would you ever think about doing another reality show? Like you're addicted?
Oh look, if Australian Survivor called again, I would consider it, even though my forty something bones have been wearied by time and that experience. But it was the experience of a lifetime and I have no regrets whatsoever. I think the fun that we had on the island will will definitely be on screen, the fun and the horror together.
And as for other reality TV shows, I think it's less about the genre and more about the fact that this was Australian Survivor, Like I really hold this particular show close to my heart, so I'll go where my heart wanders been.
I've heard people and producers say that reality television is like crack cocaine, and you know, people can easily get very addicted to it, even if the experience can be quite painful.
I do wonder whether it's like childbirth. I'll never birth a child myself, but you know, sometimes I've spoken to my friends who had children. They were like, yeah, that was an absolutely traumatizing experience. I've never been in so much pain in my entire life. I'm considering having another one,
and it's like, where is this coming from. So as I've come back and I'm telling my partner and my family about stuff that happened to me and what it put my body through, and then I'm like, yeah, and if the opportunity came up again, I might consider it. They're like, what are you talking about? Did you not hear the story you just told about the time that mosquitos attacked you to the point where you could basically not function mentally anymore? Like horror, horror, horror, But there's
something about it. When you've been through such deprivation, you've pushed yourself to the physical limit that is euphoric. I'm actually doing a two kilometer chart pread swim for minus eighteen soon and if anyone wants to donate to that, just find the links on my Instagram account, mister Benjamin Law. We'd love your donations. And I'm not a naturally great swimmer. I was actually the worst swimmer in my entire year level of two hundred and fifty when I was growing up.
But there is something euphoric about being able to push your body to another limit that you didn't know it was able to was able to do. And I think Survivors similar you come out on a rush. As much as you're traumatized, depleted and kind of violated, you do come out on well, at least for me, a bit of a high as well.
I'm so excited to watch you in this out. I think this chat has only made me more excited. So before you go, everyone who joins the podcast gets asked this question, what is something from behind the scenes, something that we won't see that's kind of like a behind the scenes secret from filming Australian Survival.
What can I tell you about the production secrets of Survivor without actually letting you know the production Secrets of Survivor. Yeah, what I found interesting was like all the stills that you see of us when they were taken, Like, there are scenes of us that are quite dirty, that's oil and dirt. And then later on I was just like, Wow, they really didn't need to stage that, because we are the filthiest we've ever been in our lives.
What about the heroes versus villains poses? I mean, I can imagine being a villain would be easy because all you need to do is look angry, But what about the heroes posts did they say pretend to be Thor or some other Marvel superhero.
No, we all have to like have what they call game face on, and that's both for the stills cameras and the moving cameras game face on. But to be honest, we don't have to really stretch ourselves because our game face is just constantly on. Once the game has started, you were like, I have to get through this challenge to the end. Alive would be a good bare minimum, but winning would be really good as well. So I'm not sure if I'm always expressing game face or deep constipation.
But if you sense constipation in some of the shots of me on the show. It's probably because I am Rice and Beans. It does a lot tepper guys.
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, and I think this has been the perfect tease for the Australian Survivor that twenty twenty three series. I hope audiences love watching my special guest today, Benjamin, as he takes center stage on the twenty twenty three series on Network ten. Ben, thank you so much. I cannot wait to watch and I will hopefully get a chance to chat to on the other side of this.
Enjoy what is going to be the most chaotic, hectic and hilarious season. I can say that with some authority. Thanks mate, Thanks Ben.