It's in the news today, but it was actually on TV Reload the podcast last week Airline. Welcome back guys to TV Reload. As you may know, my name is Benjamin Norris and this is your podcast to get all the inside goss on the popular TV shows you may be watching from around the world. Undeniably, our TV sets are a major part of our home entertainment, and yet very little is known about how our favorite shows get made.
So each episode, I've been finding guests the water to dive just that little bit deeper into the shows they're currently making, so that you can hear all their exclusive stories and gain access to the biggest names in Australian television. I want to thank you for downloading or subscribing to this podcast however you've found me. I love hearing your feedback, so make sure you leave a review or a comment
on your chosen podcast platform. On today's podcast, I have Deputy Intelligence Ben Owen, one of the Hunters from Network ten season two of the hit reality show Hunted, which starts this Monday at seven point thirty. Former British intelligence officer, Ben Owen is an internationally recognized expert in surveillance and covert operations. Returning to the second series of Hunted as
Deputy Intelligence. During his exemplary career, Ben has gathered intelligence for some of the most high profile man hunts in recent British history. Across a ten year intelligence career, Ben now works in cybersecurity and digital intelligence, advising organizations from around the globe on cyber safety and necessary protections in the increasingly volatile digital world. With many his experience in high pressure environments, Ben remains calm under fire and promises
to bring his laser focus to the Hunted investigation. I will talk about the ways in which the Hunters will track the Hunted and how this series has leveled up on technology. We will find out about how season two contestants chose to learn from series one and if being more familiar with the format will affect their chances. Ben will talk about the real life hackers affecting everyday Australians
and what your social media says about you. Plus we will get plenty of exclusives from behind the scenes of Hunted season two, which pray me as Monday, the twenty fourth of July at seven thirty on Network ten. And of course you can catch up on ten play. Anyway, let's bring Ben into the podcast, and I really hope you enjoy this fascinating episode of TV reload. Hey, how are you? I'm all right, Ben, you, I'm fabulous. I'm very excited to be talking to you.
Oh lightwise, Sorry, I'm not on camera. I'm just at an airport and I've found a little cuppy hole, so hopefully you can hear me.
Okay, I actually can. And I was pre warned that you may be like on the road, driving in the streets of Spain, and I was thinking, I don't know what I'm going to have to deal I don't know what I'm dealing with with this phone call.
So good? Where about so you, Ben?
Well, I'm coming to you from the EP center of the show. I'm in Melbourne, very close to the city. I'm in Turek, so I don't know whether or not I needed to tell you that you probably already knew.
Oh that's fantastic. Oh nice. I love Melbourne. I'm very fond of it and I miss it a lot.
Well. How excited I you for series two? Because last year the ratings were amazing and everyone was very excited about this show, and now it's back. I've seen episode one and it's bigger and better than ever.
Yeah, I'll be honest, I literally can't wait for it. I'm so I'm so excited for it because I just think. I mean, I'm not in TV production, I'm not a you know, I know nothing about that kind of stuff, but I just know from filming it as one of the on screen participants as a hunter, I just know the amount of effort that's gone in on season two
to make it bigger and better. And they're always looking for a new angle, something that the public have never seen before, and I think you're going to get that, not just on our side, but on every fugitive pair as well. There's just new things they're doing, new techniques that we're having to deal with, but also new hunting techniques that we've deployed that have not been seen yet. So I literally can't wait to put it on the TV.
Well, I'm going to ask you about some of these new techniques because I'm very interested in them. But I also wanted to start this interview really by asking you. I loved Hide and Seek as a child, what was your relationship with it? And as was that early signs of being interested in this type of work.
Do you know what, Ben, I'm exactly the same as you because this hunted is basically a grown up, high tech, fast paced game of hide and seek. And I was exactly the same And as a child growing up, certainly into my early teen years, I vividly remember so my dad was a school caretaker, so I basically had the entire school to play what we called it manhunt, and it would be in groups. It'd be like a group of three and a group of three, and we would hunt each other down around the school.
And I literally fell in love with it.
If I wasn't playing football, I wanted to be playing manhunt. And I just guess I never grew out of that, and I sort of carved my career into it through the military. It joined at age seventeen, so a very young age, and sort of started to get into it that way, I guess. But yeah, exactly the same as you. But I never grew out of that excitement of the thrill of the chase, so to speak.
Were you good at hide and seek or were you acceptionally bad at it which made you want to get in your career later on?
Well, I love that it's maybe laugh but I'm not trying to come across as arrogant or blowing smoke somewhere. But I was actually really good at it, and I think that's because I even right. I even took a bag with me with different colored clothing because I thought, well, if I'm indifferent. So I didn't really understand the military, the sniper the camouflage of concealment stuff at the age of twelve, but I guess it was just embedded in
my brain somewhere. So I took different colored clothing and I would change it as I went around the school and tried to hide. And I remember once there was building works at one of the schools and they had like this orange plastic sheeting and I literally changed into the closest color I could find and just laid there for hours and no one found me. So I took it really, probably too seriously, and I think that's probably why I never sort of shook it.
Off, and I guess why.
I then joined the military, and then I passed my sniper selection and training, and I was a sniper for for years.
Sorry, there's a long winded answer to your life.
It's not a long winded answer you're giving me like young Shelden vibes, you know, like maybe there's enough show that we can do in years to come where we go back.
I think he's far Yeah, he's far more intelligent than I am. Young Sheldon love that show.
You know, you guys have really been able to up the anti from last year in terms of the technology and how you can track these fugitives. Are you sometimes even surprised at how far we've come in twenty twenty three and how hard it is to really disappear?
Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm not surprised because I just I've just sort of known how technology is advancing, not every year, but literally every week. If we're now looking at you know, artificial intelligence and what that might look like in one year, two years down the line.
But I'm not surprised about the technological advances. But what I always stress, not just to myself and remind myself, but to my fellow hunters, certainly in the intelligence collection side of Hunted HQ, is always remember that the human being is the only consistent in this. So if we can tap into the human brain, regardless of technological advances, of what we might have at our disposal to catch them.
If we can get inside their brain and understand who they are as a person, what their ego might look like, what makes them tick, what makes them sad, what makes them excited, what's going to piss them off, then ultimately we're going to be able to catch them. So albeit all these technical advances that are happening and different bits of equipment that we might have next year that we don't even know about yet, it still does ball down
to understanding the human being themselves. And well, I think once you've done that, then you can deploy the correct equipment to be able to corner them off or let them or make them make a mistake, so to speak.
It's like, I think, in some way you're kind of telling me that studying behavior and understanding human behavior is a large part of this as well. So I mean, you could either be doing this as a job, or you could be a psychologist. I guess with the ability to read people.
One hundred percent.
And I think I give quite a lot of keynote speeches and some people just want me to talk about my upbringing and I always you know, I had a and there's always someone that's had it worse off. So this isn't a sort of sob story. But my mother died when I was four. She was an alcoholic. I grew up with my father. Money wasn't really there. We sort of cut our cloth, so to speak. I got three jobs by the time I was fourteen. One of them jobs I had to clean the school that I
studied in. So I was the school cleaner. So I would literally finish study and go home and get changed and then go and clean the school. And sometimes my fellow pupils would see me clean the toilets, that kind of stuff. And so I think I learned at a very young age how the human brain works. And I learned very again at a very young age that you know, not to be too bothered about what people think and opinions.
And I just think I've sort of carried that on along with my my skills for man hunting and playing around the school. But I've sort of carried into my adult life and the careers that I've had and always defaulted. Well, if we can understand the brain what makes that particular person tick, then we are at a huge advantage, regardless of anything else that we might have at our disposal.
What is your thoughts on you just us as the everyday people with their Instagram and facebooks and Twitter and all of that being hacked by people of overseas and losing our access to those sorts of things. Is that a bit of a strange phenomenon at the moment. Is that a phase we're going through.
I think what we're seeing a significant increase in all that kind of stuff, And it's a legacy from I guess the pandemic and lockdowns and financial stresses and strains people having more time to sit at home and perhaps learn the criminal side of hacking. But once again, I think it goes down to understanding how much information we all put online every single day. And that's exactly what we're doing in Hunting HQ. When we're doing the show.
One of the first things is the sort of intel lead in headquarters and reporting to the the chief is I ask my intel team. The first thing is generally go on open source, find their social media accounts, find out who they're banking with, find out their friends, their associates, their networks, their mum, dad, wives, whatever that might look like, and provide me with a picture of this person and
honestly Ben. You could do that on an individual now who even has an average, not a high, but an average online presence, I would be able to tell you within half an hour forty minutes the ins and outs of this person's life, literally where they live, the cars they drive, their partners, who they bank with, probably their route to work every single day, the gym that they go to, the restaurants that they've been to, literally everything, everything is available at the click of a button. And
I think that's what hackers are getting good at. And once again, although this is digital reconnaissance, it is actually going into that human being's mind because you're understanding all these things about them. And you could be on the other side of the world conducting this reconnaissance on someone else. So I could sit here and do it on someone in Australia and I could tell you quite a bit about how their mind work. And I think that's all
it is. It's that drawer and that's what hackers are doing. They're understanding you and they're saying right now, I've had a look at Ben's online presence. I know that sending Ben an SMS at five point thirty on a Thursday, when he finishes the gym and his pheromones are high and they're happy. That's the best possible chance I've got for him to click on that link, and obviously that's the hack and the malware is deployed.
You know what's really strange about you saying that was when my Instagram was hacked. It was at the routine
time of me finishing my run. I run the Tan in Melbourne, and it was just as I was finishing that and someone pretended to be someone I knew who was young and probably someone that you might reach out for my help and said, you know, I can't access my Instagram if I need my Instagram verified, if you just click this link, it means that it'll get verified for me, and me being so gullible and maybe full of life from doing my run, feeling like I will do good. I did it.
Yeah, you're a natural high.
So your natural high after doing the exercise is to help people. So you're trying to be helpful and that's what they're leveraging is the human brain and for want of a better phrase, the weaknesses during your day and your patterns. So yeah, that is really really strange. Actually, it was just after a run that you mentioned.
That, Yeah, you said you laid it all out before you even knew that about me. It was very strange, but I mean that's obviously the key to that kind of success. I was also going to say, look, spoiler alert, I got my Instagram back, but that was after about a week of negotiating with this Nigerian guy who oh God, negotiated with me. And I eventually convinced him by saying, because I found out that he was, you know, needed
money and he worried about his mum's health. I convinced him by saying, does your mum know that you're doing this to people? And he was like, no, you should be so disappointed in me. And then I said, reversed it.
I an element, love it. You should work for us, Ben.
Is there a job going? I just I just really appreciate psychology. I love that phrase, and I'm going to get it wrong. But you know, people tell you who they are, and it's very interesting because if you listen to people, you can gather so much information about them, and if you're evil, you can use that against them, or yes, if you're you, you can use it against them for the greater good.
Exactly, right, Ben? Yeah, that's spot on.
You know what. I'm going to be really honest about this. When I watched the first season the whole way through, I really enjoyed it, But then I had concerns about a season two because I was thinking, how much of these people that are going to come and try it and take it on this challenge have watched the season before and have learnt too much.
That's a really good question, and I guess yes is the answer. Yes, we're always concerned about that because we don't want to run out of ideas and initiatives of how we might catch them. But once again, it goes down to real life, doesn't it. Every time a real life fugitive is caught and that person goes through court or those people go through the court and litigation process, all of the law enforcement and potentially intelligence services tactics
come out as part of that litigation process. So in the real world, fugitives are learning every single day. They have the Internet, you know, the click of a button, they can find this stuff out. So we're dealing with what we would have to deal with in the real world.
So it's completely realistic. But once again, I think it goes down to being mentally resilient and thinking of new and inventive ideas, even ones that we perhaps have never deployed before in our professional capacity, you know, thinking about really off the wall ideas that we can deploy as long as it's legal, as long as it's proportionate, and it's in the realms of the rules, in the parameters of the rules of the hunt, you know, we can do it. So it's also on us to be more inventive.
So we've always got to look at ways of doing that as well.
Did people return and do very similar things to last year or do you think that they all we had already worked out a plan that was sort of leveling up.
I think the latter.
I think people worked out a plan because they had watched the first season and potentially they've watched many seasons across the world of Hunted and worked out what the general mistakes are, what the patterns are. But once again, it goes back down to humans are creatures of habit. So whilst you might have what you think is the best plan possible, you can't account for being paranoid, tired, annoyed, hungry.
You know, once you get to that mental state, the plan might go out the window, and most of the time it does, and you're dealing with stuff that you didn't know that you had to deal with, So your plan has to change, which makes you default to some of the tactics that have been happening forever. And that's
just the fact of going on the run. You never know what you're going to come up against, and you never ever know when bad luck is going to slap you right in the face, and it's how you deal with it as you go through that.
So you know, it's completely it's completely fair.
It's so exciting because we literally don't know what we're going to walk into every single day, and neither do the fugitives.
Well, I kind of felt, you know, straight away, and I think audiences around Australia will feel the same. But the contestants do seem more ambitious this year. They seem like they might be a little bit more hungrier. You know, you've been evolved with other, you know, international versions of this show. A good question to ask you from the comparison is what makes Australians different in the way that they try and take on this competition.
I think the Australian fugitives have been hands down the toughest fugitives that I've ever had to deal with in doing the show in the British, the US versions, and obviously now the Aussie version. And I think that honestly comes down to the way the ossies are brought up, the way that they're parented, the way that the country encourage outdoor, hands on practical living. You've got the I guess,
the the temperature, the environment for it. The country lends itself for you to get out and explore and be adventurous. And I think just having that in your experience as a child and into your teen years and into your adult life, being really sort of practically hands on and resilient has really helped them with being fugitives on this TV his show, which is annoying for us as hunters, because obviously we don't want all fugitives to be good,
because our work will be a lot tougher. But yeah, I honestly think and I'm not just saying that the Aussie fugitives are the best I've ever dealt with because I'm doing the Aussie version. It is because I mean it, and they actually are. And I just think, yeah, your background and being able to be practical and mentally resilient. Gives you that confidence as well as a nation. So ultimately that's why I think they're the toughest fugitives I've ever had to deal with.
It's interesting as well, Like you know, for me growing up, my parents both they were separated, but you know, whoever was looking after us, they encouraged us to be outside exactly A lot of our child a lot of my growing up was always encouraged to be socializing with all the other kids in the street and making up our own entertainment. And I now can see that they're large part of my creativity was sort of probably fostered in
that way right at the start. So maybe it does lend itself to being able to think outside the box.
I think so massively. And like you said, Ben, when you're you know, a child, and you're growing up and you're being a you're able to go over to another group of children and ingratiate yourself and learn about the different nuances in how different people live. You know, we've all got we all think inherently different, every single human being. We brought up with different parents with different influences, you know, some parents together. I was the same as you, Ben.
My parents were divorced and I spent time at either side, and you know, so we all think different, we have different experiences. But once you learn that from other people, and the only way you're going to do that is is if you get out and about and do it, you're going to be a better rounded person. And I think naturally that lends itself to aliens as a general population of people.
That absolutely is the case.
Well, I feel like this is a really good compliment and I'm going to take.
It so great. Take it. I mean it.
You know, I might be reading into this differently, but you know, I thought that your relationships inside your surroundings seemed a little bit more intense. I must have been. I didn't notice if there was this change to too much of the people working with you, but it or maybe it's you know, we've evolved and the magic of TV looks like it's coming across better. But that intensity of how you are trying to track them does seem very intense compared to last year.
I think you're right. I think it is.
And again with the TV side, we're always trying to make it fast paced and lots of adrenaline I think that the rise in fugitives. So last year there was eighteen fugitives. This year we've got another two to deal with, so we've got more fugitives in a very short space of time. And again to put this in context, the UK version, generally speaking on the not the celebrity version, but the normal members of the public, we had around fourteen fugitives and we had twenty eight days to catch them.
The Australian version we had twenty fugitives, so six more and seven days less to catch them. So I mean that's probably in part as to why you're seeing that intense,
frantic nature and headquarters and out of the ground. It's just because we've got a lot of spinning plates, lots to deal with, and we never want to miss that low hanging fruit at the start of the process, because we know if we catch people at the very start of the process in the first twenty four to forty eight hours, we know what benefit that gives us as a hunter team one week, two weeks down the line with resources and brain power and you know, being able
to spread our resources a bit better. So that's probably why you're seeing much more intense nature in headquarters because naturally we've just got a lot more to deal with at that point.
You know. Also, the if I was to be doing this type of a show, I wouldn't get anyone involved. I know that there's some people that have pre arranged for and family to help them. I feel like, you know, you're getting other people involved is just too much, almost like a paper trail that you just don't need. I personally would not be wanting to get other people to
help drive me or house me. What about you? Do you think that you would try and isolate yourself as much as possible and try not to involve others, or do you think it's important to use those techniques.
I think it really depends on the situation, the geographical location, and what part of the process you're in, because you could use your associates to your advantage if you're using them correctly. And the way I would probably use them is not to physically go to them, but maybe use them as decoys or to drag hunters into certain areas of the state. And I'm going to be the other
side of it kind of thing. So there's obviously huge disadvantages to doing that because you've got to make contact and that contact might be the bit that hunters find out about.
But if you're doing it correctly.
With covert methods of communication, and you're deploying your associates to your advantage, it's actually massively tages if it works. If it doesn't, it could bite you on the backside. So my answer to that is it depends on several variables on that. So sorry to sit on the fence.
I love it. I've just that these are all the questions that you know. I've spent twelve months thinking about what i'd ask. You know, I need to ask spend these questions. I reckon here to have the answers. You know, how long I mean you personally? How long could you do you think you could possibly spend? Keep three hundred dollars? I mean three hundred dollars is the budget that these guys have got. How long could three hundred dollars last year?
It's a tough question.
I think I think it would probably last quite a while.
I would use it to best effect.
I would probably be leveraging, and I don't want to give too much away for future fugitives as we go on, but I would certainly be leveraging. Maybe the homeless community. I'd be leveraging anything, maybe the religious community in any way, shape or form.
And getting some assistance there. Yeah.
So I it's a difficult one to answer, but I guess the overarching question is could I go on the run and win?
And I think as much as I would like to.
Say yes, because I have the experience of catching people, and in reverse, I would know how not to be caught. However, what I would always say is you can never account for bad luck. It doesn't matter how experienced you are. You never know when bad luck is around the corner. You turn the corner and it punches you straight in the face and you don't know how to deal with it. So you can never say yes. But I would like to think i'd give it a very good run.
Maybe. Well, let's just let's workshop this because we had seen in the UK that you know, after a couple of seasons, you did a celebrity version. So if we do a celebrity version here in Australia, would you be interested in being one of the celebrities on that show.
That's a good question. I thought he was going to say, what celebrity? Why do I want to track down and my answer to that would be Kylie Minogue.
Of course, she's already p dumb and spinning around. Should be too hard to find, my friend. I think it sounds good in theory, but I don't know if you'd be able to catch Carlim. And you know, no man has really been able to catch Calm. So there you go.
You know what. You're right, Ben, You're right. I might have to rethink that one won't.
But I guess to answer your question, well, I wouldn't think i'd class as a celebrity anyway.
However, I don't know. I don't know.
I would always rather stay team Hunter. So if I could dabble and try it and then go back to Hunters, yes, if it meant I had to be fugitive forever, then definitely not. I'm definitely team Hunter all the way.
I just think we'll do the one. So when we do our celebrity version here in Australia, we're going to hit you up for it. I reckon you'd be great.
Go for it, a big good laugh, won and never say never say no, just say yes and deal with it later.
This is this show now, I mean you're in different versions around you know the globe, So you know, has this taken over your life? I mean you still able to do the work that you were originally trained and trained in. Do you do you'll still do that or or has your life become more about taking part of this show? Yeah?
I mean Hunted is a huge part of my calendar.
I only do the Australian version now, so I'm very loyal to the Aussie so I just I just do the Australian version, okay, And I absolutely adore coming over to your beautiful country. I spent a good few months over there filming the show. But yeah, most of my most of my year is dealing with my day to day job, which is in cybersecurity, so lots of travel, lots of talking, but ultimately people always want to get down to the nitty gritty and ask me about the show.
So I spent a lot of my talking about it and a small part of it filming it.
I just love because you can hear how much you love this show. And you know, I spoke to at last year while the show was on, and you know, it was very rare that you could tweet somebody who is a part of a show and have them tweet bag.
Then I'm so humbled and fortunate to be to have been asked to come over to your wonderful country and do your version. Like, honestly, I have to pinch myself sometimes, I'm so lucky to be the only, for want of a better word, outsider if you like the non ossie. So I'm so happy to be doing it. And yeah, honestly, we've always tried to converse as much as possible in line with the people that love the show, because without people watching it, we wouldn't be doing it. So you know,
why wouldn't we do that? And that will always be the same. We'll always talk to you guys and have some fun along the way.
Well, that's certainly what it is, you know, before you go. My last question, what is something from behind the scenes of this show that you could possibly reveal? Now, I don't want to give away too many secrets because this show works, I think with some of that magic that we kind of need to leave to the side, But is there anything that you can share with us, something that we won't see on the show, Like, did anything unusual happen in the production when you were trying to
track people down? Was there a funny anecdote that happened throughout filming this season of season two.
Well, I was on an interview before this, and it was made aware to me that I keep saying these phrases that at the time I completely forget i've said.
I don't even realize I've set them. So season one, for example, I was just chatting away to a fellow hunter in HQ and said, oh, I've got my capture pants on, and that was one of the you know, one of the biggest punchlines on the show, and I didn't I don't even remember saying it, because, honestly, in headquarters, the camera operators are so good, they're so professional, you don't even realize they're there. They're just hoovering up all
of what's going on in headquarters. And apparently one of my phrases this year is I have a warm and fuzzy feeling in my pants or words to that effect, which I honestly then I don't remember saying at all. So I'm not sure what episode that might come out in. I don't know if it's one two or whatever.
But also I want to know what was going on that day. I don't want to know it like it's really hard to read.
God knows, God knows, that's what I mean.
I don't even remember saying I probably would have reworded it if I'd thought about it, but it was a fun fact for It was my fortieth birthday whilst filming the show, so it was in the heat of the hunt. We had a lovely dinner to celebrate my FORTI if on season two filming.
Wow, oh my gosh, Well I can't believe. Sorry, I had no idea that you were forty. You look very young, look very youthful. Maybe you've been indulging in some of the spars that we have here in Australia.
People wish I had time.
I just want to say thank you so much for your generosity with chatting with me. I've had such a fun time talking to you. I almost knew that I would because I kind of have that weird brain of being fascinated by this sort of stuff. So thank you for taking the time to chat with me.
You're very welcome, Ben, It's been absolute pleasure. And thanks to everyone for listening to your podcast and watching the show and appreciate it.