It's in the news today, but it was actually on TV Reload the podcast last week Airline. Welcome TV Reload listeners. My name is Benjamin Norris and this is your podcast to get all the inside goss on the popular TV shows you may be watching from around the world. Undeniably, our TV sets are a major part of our home entertainment and very little is known about how our favorite
shows get made. Each episode, I find guests that want to dive just that little bit deeper into the shows they're currently making, so that you can hear all their exclusive stories and gain access to the biggest names in Australian television. I want to thank you for downloading or subscribing to this podcast. I love hearing your feedback, so make sure you leave a comment on your chosen podcast platform and I will make sure you feel as included in the production of this show as I possibly can.
As you would know, I am obsessed with Australian Survivor twenty twenty three and I'm doing the exit interview chats for Heroes versus Villains. So this episode we will be talking to the latest booted castaways from week four. First up, I have Jordi Hansen, who no secret is one of my favorite contestants in both seasons that I've seen him in.
Jordi re entered the Australian Survivor universe with the nickname firmly slated as the Joker, beautifully selected as a villain and one hundred percent a fan favorite for many Survivor enthusiasts. We will talk massive idle fails and whether you can ever play two sides successfully. We will discuss pieces to camera and if they actually mean anything to how your game is going. I really want to know if Simon can pop out from his current deputy Dewy Roll as
the second in charge, wanting to be in charge. Jordi will also share who he thinks could win and if he would ever return to the Australian format again interesting. We then have Benjamin Law, who was another journalist to be booted from the show, but he's also known for his popular writing on TV shows, novels and theater. I actually think of him as an LGBTI activist and his name being attached to this series was very exciting for me. We will find out why he thinks people thought he
was shifty. We will discuss making the fake idol and if he could have used his idle clue in a different advantage. Benjamin will also reveal why he probably won't return to the show and who most likely will be standing in his way. Plus, Benjamin and Jordie both will break down the fourth week of the series on Network ten, which will give you some pretty cool exclusives on what actually went down during their epic time on the show. However,
let's bring Jordan in now. I'm sure you're going to enjoy his banter.
Hi, Ben, it's disappointing. I can't see your face. You are always entertaining to be on a zoom win and you've got such a beautiful set. I feel like it's wasted.
Now, it's so wasted. And I've just been sitting here waiting to have this chat with you, and now you can't see it all. Anyway, I digress and we have to get into this chat with Survivor.
Go mate.
Okay, So you came back to Australian Survivor and for audiences it was really clear that you had changed in some way. Did you feel like something or has something changed quite significantly for us to have noticed that different?
That's an interesting question. Yeah, a couple of people who have said that to me, And you know, it seemed to me this whole, this constant thing saying, how is JORDI the voice of reason? I know I get it in some way, but also I feel like I was
always like that. Perhaps it's situational. This time I was surrounded by a different situation and different people, people that perhaps weren't so level headed and were acting on emotions and egos rather than being strategic and having fun and so automatically you, I guess you become the voice of reason when you see through that sort of rubbish. I don't know.
I mean, I loved you the first time round, so there was no real change for me. It was more my reading of it online. And then I guess you did get to play the word of reason in a really hectic situation at one point. You know, I guess sometimes if everyone's behaving badly, some people can look better.
But mate, I suppose so, Yeah, that was That was a funny night, A very disappointing night that tribal counsel in. You know, the way that they spoke to each other was uncalled for, and I sort of let them know that I.
Suppose, Well, some people have said Simon isn't doing anything different from his first run on Austrain and Survivor, where you have grown and evolved. You know, what does that statement mean to you? I mean, do you think there's some truth in that that Simon hasn't really changed his gameplay compared to you. I'm maybe trying something different.
Perhaps, Yeah, I guess so, Like I don't want to, you know, I don't want to speak too negatively about him. He does have a good heart. But I suppose him and George are in the same boat. You know, Simon didn't learn from not being the leader, and I took advantage of that. You know, everyone knows early days got the leader, and I saw he was more than willing to jump on that train. And then George as well, seems to forget that. In the end, your peers are
the people that vote for you on the jury. You know, they vote for you to win. You've got to play a social game, and for some reason, George also didn't learn from that. Here's me, though, sitting here at home while they're still out there. You know, So having said that, my advice really means nothing.
The moment that you said I'm going to play both sides. I was like, no, Jordy, like I and my partner's watching Survivor for the very first time, so like he's never watched it before, and he was like, why are you reacting like that? Why are you smacking your head? Why are you saying no to Jeordie? And I was like, I don't know whether or not players can play both
sides successfully. What do you think? Do you think that making that decision at that point to try and play everyone was maybe a bad idea.
Look, everyone's got their own opinions, so as a Survivor fan, you know there's there's a history of people not getting that right. But also if you do get it right, it plays off. You know, it pays off. And if it wasn't for that twist at that tribal council, it would have paid off. But you know, I don't have a crystal ball. I can't read the future. I did not predict that there would be an immunity challenge within a tribal you know, I didn't even know that was
a thing that existed. So if it wasn't for that twist, the plan would have worked.
Honestly, I'm going to get back into this in a little bit, but I just wanted to ask you, why do you think that this series has been so amazing? I mean, you should see what people are saying online and that the ground swell that's happening. I mean, it is the most enjoyable series I've ever seen. But why has it leveled up in your mind?
That's a great question. I look for a lot of reasons, you know. I think that I'd like to think that the game players moving to a new level. I'd like to think that it's because of the players and the way that they've learned how the game works and they understand how the game should be played. I'd like to think that's the case, rather than production. I would like to think that's.
The case last night. This is my thoughts on this. I just think that you should have told the entire tribal council that you both had idols and this wasn't about your elimination. This was about which one one of them was going to go home. I think if you had been so convincing with that, you could have not played your idols, which is what you were wanting to do, but it would have been more of a clever tactic to try and get them to scramble.
I guess perhaps you're right, Yeah, perhaps you're right. For me, it was more so rather than holding someone over a barrel, it was more so about forming an alliance. You know that I was never going to play that idol. You know, I had assumed that the numbers were going to be split between Liz and I, and you know, that's what we were told, and that we would end up sending Sam home. Having gained new alliance members in Haley and Nina.
I would assume that those girls would have maybe wanted to start playing the game a bit harder, you know, and get out of the shadow of those fellas. You know, they were really hiding under the supervision of those lads. And I wanted to make a change, you know, changing the narrative. Let's do it, you know. But unfortunately, once again, you know, my opinions may not be correct. They're there and I'm here.
So well, so do you think if the moths were a little bit different, So that were definitely was Sam. So Sam in your mind was going to is Who's going to go home? That's what you were within.
I was pretty comfortable. I knew I was going to cop some votes. You know, it was fairly obvious Liz and I were the only two people that weren't jumping on the hero train. So yeah, I had assumed that the votes were going to be split between Liz and I. I also thought maybe we'd have Simon. I'd also been told that maybe Sean was interested as well, And as we saw, Sean was interested right up until the last minute.
I was fairly comfortable to take that risk. But for me, regardless of whether I took the risk or not, it was about creating an alliance. Sure, I could have woken up the next day on that beach, but then what you know, like I was still out numbered. You know, I had one alliance member. I was shafted anyway, for want of a better.
Term, well, Sean saying that he was looking forward to working with you, I thought, you know, maybe this is the tease to the deconstruction of the meat train.
Well, yeah, and I would have thought that once again, I don't want the guy. But every year I keep going, why would you not? You know, I feel like I'm saying sad thing I said last year. You know, why just make a move. Let's do it. Let's break this up, come on, like you know, but once again it's a snowsfest.
But they see That's where I think it comes down to the question I was asking you, and the reason why this show has leveled up is when the show first came on television, everyone was so scared to go home. They played safe and they played no big moves, and for the audience at home, it just meant that it wasn't as exciting where for you, you played big moves. And you know, I think had you been in season one doing this, you wouldn't have done that, you know what I mean, Like I think, yeah.
No, you're right, you are right, Yeah, one hundred percent, You're definitely right there. Yeah, it's changed completely. You know, people know that. I think to be I would like to think that people are making big moves and strategically and intelligently and measured moves to impress the jury at the end because they know what it takes. We've seen after year when goats arrive at jury at the final, at the final tribal, in front of the jury, they're
not impressed. You don't impress people just getting to the end. You impress people by being measured and making smart, striking decisions. And I think people know that, and I'd like to think that's why, rather than you know, people doing it to cause drama or you know, get attention. I hope people are, you know, maintaining the purity of survival when they make these decisions.
Well, Shoannie looked a little bit pissed that that idol was burnt. Did you owe her a more sensible plan? That's what I thought. I thought, you know, maybe easy come, easygo scenario where you just were like, oh, hold, we got these two idols, now, you know, let's just do whatever. You know, let's I don't know, I just I wondered whether or not you felt like you should have owed her a better play of the idol.
Sure. I think perhaps it's difficult for people to see the situation I was in. You know, there were quite literally moments where it was everyone talk and I'm just standing there going like, I know, you guys are talking about me, you know, and me and Liza just standing They're going, we're in trouble here. We got to do something, so you know, sensible would be sure, play an idol, send someone home. But then what you know, like then I'm just sitting there. The idol's gone, it's back in
play anyway. It's more so about rather than just having another morning on the beach, It's about creating in a line. I think if people have an understanding of the game, they'll know that just another day on the beach doesn't mean you're not snooked anymore.
But you know what's funny, though, is I love Simon by the way, I love both of you. Your two are so good in this season almost. I mean, people talking about George, but I feel like I've been talking about you and Simon Moore. And my only concern for Simon is I worry can he ever really shake this kind of Barney Fife Deputy Dufus connotation that he has going at the moment, you know where you get what
I'm saying here, right? You know, he obviously had gone to sleep every night with his line ready to use and gold, and he'd said it a thousand times, and then when he couldn't get it out, you could see the frustration in his eyes.
It just was, Oh, how funny it was that, Oh, the poor bugger, the poor bugger, Like he's you know, his whole world is wrapped up in Survivor, and unfortunately, I think he's placing too much importance around his performance, you know, while the prize is life changing, I think that character beats strategy any day personally. And I think that, you know, because he's so wrapped up in it, he finds out hard to see. Clearly, he can't see. He doesn't have the perspective on the game that you need
to see. Pass. For example, Sean and Sam cooked up last night getting him to hand over what he thought was an idol, you know, like, mate, can you not see how you're just being worked over? Like take some control. And that's what I try and sell tell people, and that's sort of what I was preaching last night, was don't back someone into a corner and expect them to do what you tell them to do, you know, like, at least have a dig, have a crack, you know,
don't just bend over for the majority. At least try something.
I guess though, that Simon really only exists in the survival world, and I guess that can be quite dangerous in a way where for you, for some reason, the way you've played, and I guess the media profile that you've managed to create for yourself means that we could see you in any format, like you know, you could go on to something else and exist outside of that. So I guess the pressure for him might be a little bit stronger than you. I guess because you might be closer.
Really, that was lovely I mean to say about me, But yeah, I think that. Look to be honest, I haven't I've not done anything. I'm not in control of the way that the public perceives me. You and I both know that the general public can decide however they want to believe. They can believe anything they want to believe, you know, And it's not to do with me. I'm just I just put myself out there, you know, and I'm received how I am received. And Simon does it same.
He puts himself out there and he's received how however he has received, you know. And so in the end, I think true characters shine through and what's genuine comes through I think as well. And people see through, people see through it, people see through what you display, People see through you know, you know, the idealistic image that you portray. And so I think by just keeping it real and you know, perhaps not try not even trying to pretend don't even try and lie to the general public.
They can see what's going on.
I agree, I agree, But I also think you are in control of that. I think on reality TV, you know, there's a lot of variables you could you're so freely giving away your narrative and letting other people have that in their hands. But at the very core of who you are, no matter who you no matter how you play good or bad, the audience will see through. They will
connect to you. Yeah, and that currency is much more powerful and viable in a long game than just being a big character in one season of Survivor.
Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right, and I you know, I think that maybe for up and coming players, maybe that's a good lesson. You know, try and.
Though Geordie, it depends. Maybe you just want to be on Survivor. Maybe you just want to have the Survivor showbag, and you know you've got that for life, and you can go back and undo the Survivor showback and go through it and tell your friends. Maybe that's all.
You You're right. Everyone's different, everyone's got a different idea is about what they want from their life. But you know, I guess for me personally, I can only speak from personal experience and my own personal opinion. You know, there is much more going on in our world outside of Survivors, so you've got to think past it, you know. And sure that doesn't mean don't get involved and don't put your whole heart into Survivor. Like I gave everything I
had to the game. You know, when you're out there, you've got to you've got to rip in. But but that doesn't mean compromising who you are as a person. That doesn't mean Yeah, that doesn't mean saying lines or acting or playing your character. Don't play a character. Just go out there and be yourself and give it everything you've got.
You know.
And that's still living out a Survivor dream.
Well, it's because you know, if you are just playing lines and you are leaning into a character, you're only as good as the last line that you had.
So it's very true.
You may have a couple of episodes where you don't know that you haven't had time to script or something, or come out with something of a doozy. People go, ah, have you watched the vival last two episodes? Oh Simon, you know he's not as good as what he was,
you know, it dissipates very quickly. I was going to say, you know, there's a lot of idols again at play and if you read the commentary board, everyone's like, I hate that there's so many idols in Australia, where I actually think this season we've seen an amazing use of idols. But what are your thoughts with this? Do you enjoy a season of Survival with a lot of idols or do you think that we are using too many of them?
Oh? Look, I think it's great. Most of the time, there are two in play on each beach, you know, after a certain amount of time, they're both released into the wild, you know, And personally, I think that's a good thing. It's always been a part of the game and for me, they're an opportunity to enhance the game, not hinder. They're there to enhance, and I think they played a good, a positive role in this seat.
Yeah. I think in some seasons though, it felt like, oh, we can't lose this storyline, we can't lose this character, so we're just going to put an idol right in front of them and the audience goes, oh no and slaps the head and goes this is too orchestrated. We I feel like with this season, it's not the case. It's not like they're just being used to save certain characters. Man,
we've just lost you. You're like the Ricky Lee moment of survivor losing at this point, Ricky Lee, every episode, I have my non negotiables on people that you can't go home, you know. And I didn't even feel like you in the tribal. You were sitting there and you were like, I'm just here to enjoy myself, and I was like, I'm just here to enjoy myself. There's no
way Jeordie's going home. And then when you went home, I kept waiting for the camera to turn around and you to be shipped off to Hell Whole Island or wherever it was going to be. And the fact that you went home and it rolled into the promo for the next episode, I was like, what the fuck's going on now? Like the Ricky Lay moment.
Oh made I know, I know it's a bit like that, but you know, on the Idols thing and on people going home and people being saying, look, I'd like to think I'm a survivor purist, you know, I'd like to think that there's not too much of that going on, and a lot of it is, and i'd like to think that all of it is by chance, you know, and these things just happen. Yeah, I think that's as far as I'll take that.
What about I know, you can't really say too much without making it sound like you know, you're big noting yourself or anything like I can't of get it. But you know, there's also so much commentary about, you know, the camera time and the pieces to camera that everyone gets. I mean, you had a bunch of camera times throughout
the season, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're safe. Is there any methodology behind the process of you know, how much screen time people a get and those pieces to cameras.
That's interesting, to be honest. It becomes about the storyline, and so it's not necessarily about who's going home who's staying. Like, there are a lot of people who have made it this far and haven't had a lot on camera, and you know, that's not necessarily down to how far they make it or how influential they are in the game. It comes down to the storyline and how they want that to be shaped. You know that comes down to the editing and production, and they do a good job
of it. I think they do a good job of it, trying to accurately as best they can and also simplify it. What a lot of people don't understand is there are a lot more complexities, a lot more details that get left out, a lot of conversations that aren't shown because it has to be kept simple and keep the storyline down the straight and narrow so that people can follow and understand. While there are a lot of people that I'm sure we go, oh, give us the complexities, give
us the detail. For the average Joe Blow might go, oh, this is too confusing, I don't know, switch it over to maps.
The best producers that I know are so good at this sort of stuff, and one of them said to me recently, it always has to speak to clarity of the storyline, you know, and if you can speak to clarity, it helps the audience. So as a player, if anyone's listening to this and they're going to go into a show, if you've signed up to survivor, speak to clarity of the storyline that you're there, because that's how you're going
to be seen. You could have an amazing conversation about something personal that happened to you in your life off the side of the beach and it do you know what I mean?
Like, yeah, that's right.
Whoop? Do you do? Your audience is, you know, only the cast survivor on the beach and a couple of camera crew, But you are talking to the show. If you are talking to the narratives anyway, I'm getting You're right, You.
Are right, you bang on. Yeah, you've got to be clear and if you're up to date with what's happening in the game at that time. If you if you are on top of it and you can clearly convey and portray what is happening, they're going to want to ask you more questions.
Yeah, well we're going to struggle. Now, we will struggle. Just before I let you go, one quick question was your relationship with George? You know, would you have been able to salvage that relationship with George because what he did to you at that tribal council was fucked? But how would that have played it? We've been robbed of the end of that story. How would that have played out in your mind?
Yeah? Look, it was a tricky one at that point in time. You know, even after that tribal council, they were they were being a bit of hard work around the camp. So I think if it was to come to another tribal council before tribeslop, it would have been interesting to see those two go head to head. They were still having at it, but you know, having the tribes swap play out. George and I had maintained a relationship.
We'd realize that moving forward, because of the numbers, we were going to have to work together, and I think that showed in George and Shanee. There is no way Shanne would have handed that idle over without George's permission. True, you know, so we would have always come back together at some point. But he can do anything at any time. He doesn't always think through things fully.
I don't think as much as people realize. Everyone that's come on the podcast normally asked them are behind the scenes secret which you know we're not allowed to really do, even though I've kind of dipped into that a little bit today. But I was going to ask you when you left the competition, who did you think was the most likely to win? Not what you know now, but as you walk out of the tribal council.
Likely to win, it's a tricky one of the returnees. I would have thought Seannie would have had a good shot. I think she's super intelligent and she makes great decisions.
And then everyone, instead of asking some other questions, I've just been saying would you come back again? Of course you would, because everyone would. But I feel like for you, it wouldn't be another season of Heroes versus Villain or a tagline like that. I feel like the only time we would see you come back to Survivor was if it was a World Challenge, you know, it was that.
Huge Yeah, yeah, yeah, it'd have to be a big deal. It would have to be a big deal.
We couldn't see it come back with another We couldn't see another promo for the Joker, just in another series, you know, which is like, I don't know, Underdogs versus you know, the Deck of Cards whatever, you know what I mean?
Everyone wants to see that. You don't want to see that. I don't want to see that. The audience doesn't want to see that. I think you're right, I think it would be it would be something pretty cool, you know, any opportunity is a great opportunity with Survivor, and I'm very grateful and I would of course be honored. I'd be honored.
Yeah, well, I have the Jordi show bag, and I think so fantastic on the show. I look forward to following your story.
That's lovely. Thank you, Ben. I appreciate that, you know, And in the end, I guess that's what matters, doesn't it. You know, Sure, money, money is great, but I think yeah, character beats strategy any day.
A great chat with Jordy and a good warm up for things to come. With my next guest, let's bring Benjamin Law into the pod. I hope you get some really fun exclusives in this chat, and I hope you enjoyed this episode. Hi, Benjamin Law. I'm very excited to be unpacking this season of Survivor with you.
I'm stokes that I get to do this with you, Benjamin Lorris, because I feel like you caught me at birth and death right like before everything started, and now that I'm the shriveled husk on the other side of my tribal council, You've seen my whole journey.
I really have it. It was amazing to have that chat with you before to sort of get your ideas on how the experience must have been versus how you've watched it on television. I mean, they're very different experiences. So we're gonna get something different from you today. If people have listened to that first chat, I'm sure.
Yeah, absolutely, no, well observed it is. It is a very different experience, and you've probably experienced this as well, which is like your experience of being in there versus the narrative that comes out. But I have to say in a good way, like obviously the show's edited, you know where, we've got cameras on us twenty four hours a day, So to actually craft something like the Shakespearean Greek tragedy level like myth that we saw last night at my tribal, it's like props to the editors because
obviously I had my own experience. But to see that, you know, the cookie idols shoved in Simon's lovely but to Sean's hands, to Flick's hands, then her her use it and for me to see it, and I'm the only one who who could have told her what it actually is except Flick, for whatever inexplicable reason doesn't trust me. It's just claw face inducing TV in the most delicious way. So yeah, I'm a comedy writer and what I saw last night was pure comedy.
I'm happy that you're laughing at it, because that's the better way to see it. But you know, in relation to how you thought this would go versus how it went, how do you feel?
It's really interesting to talk about expectations versus reality, especially when you're going into something that you've never done before and into a habitat to which you don't ostensibly belong. You know, like I'm an inner city kind of person involved in arts and media to uses my brain, like to put me out outdoors for this law, and like, obviously I was reticent, but one of the things I didn't expect was how how much I kind of loved that aspect of it. Like I kind of loved being
outdoors and getting kind of gross. I mean, I didn't love the mosquitoes. I didn't love the fact that my flesh started rotting. Other than that that was quite fine. When I went in there and I clocked my fellow tribe mates, especially on the heroes, and like, wow, that's an asset in a way. These jacked dudes who are going to push through all of these challenges. That's going
to keep me safe for quite a while. But your assets also your liabilities, and I'm like, it also means that I'm on the outer in my own tribe and that's really really tough. And when I clocked that, I thought, Look, if I make it through this show and I'm not say first boot, you know, the first one voted out,
then everything else is a bonus. And then when I think of everything that I've gone through, like winning to puzzle challenges, introducing Osland to Survivor with page and using Australian sign language between a challenge, they have been really like wonderful moments in a series of admittedly muliation after humiliation, but other than that, I'm really stoked at how things have panned out. You can't go into this game with too many expectations. You need to be surprised.
Well, your analogy of the meat tray is iconic and we'll go down in Australian Survivor history. I mean, you'd have to be happy with that contribution to this series because it's the footnote that just keeps being used.
Well, finally, you mentioned that Ben because obviously the meat train, you though, I've been called the meat tray, but they didn't know that I had given them cuts of meat as well. That has now taken off to the point where it's actually David Zach Zacharakis's birthday today, So Zach's birthday. And what I've discovered through Zaka and his girlfriend who have now hung out with, is that the name, at
least for him, has stuck. Like he is known as Backstrap to his mates, to his lovely partner Amy, like the fact that I have introduced a nickname into his domestic relationship and his friendship circle. Like, I'm pretty proud of it.
I yelled that one out before you said it, and I was sitting next to my partner and he was like, how did you know? And I'm like, come on, look at him. He is bad the lamb Backstrap, Like it's just that's who he is, you know, He's all that bad delicious.
Yeah. Favorite.
You know you said to me before the show started that you thought that, you know, heroes may do villainous things. Were there times that you felt like you behaved villainous or maybe in a way that you might not in the real world.
Are you kidding? Did you see me throw Shany under the bus with no regrets or no hesitation whatsoever. I'm just like, ah, Shani, forgive me, but today you're low hanging fruit, and I know I'm at the bottom. But at the same time, I do think that the narrative that Shani was like a complete victim who didn't know what was going on at that tribal is kind of unfair towards Shanny because she was playing in the She was playing the game out there in a way that
I actually really respect. So two of my favorite Shiny memories. One, We're on a hammock together and I was like, dude, there are five of us on the bottom. It's going to be me next, but soon after it will be you, Jerry, Haley, and Nina. Right, and you've got these four strong meat tray. And one of the things that doesn't translate well enough into TV, I think, is how close Flick and Page are to each other and to the meat tray. Page
and Flick are already talking about getting matching tattoos. By this stage, I'm pretty sure Page has been invited to Flick's wedding. The meat tray are absolutely enamored with Page, and Page is absolutely worshiping of the meatray in, you know, for reasons that are quite obvious. So that tight six versus US five. I was collaborating with Shiny, saying, hey, we need to make a move, like, are you in on this? Also, people are watching us talk now just laugh.
You're an amazing actor. Laugh like I've said something funny. And she was bringing it in a way. I was like, oh my god, you were really good at this. But then when it was clear that Shiny probably wasn't worth working with me for several reasons, I got that instinct.
My second favorite memory of her is we're just about to go into that tribal and she's standing in front of me with her torch and I'm standing behind her with my torch, and she just looks to me and she just grabs my arm and she gives it a lovely squeeze, as if to say everything's going to be okay, Ben, beautiful, meaningful look, and I give her squeeze back, you know, conveying exactly the same thing. Each of us in that moment privately planning to write down the other person's name
and annihilate the living hell out of them. And in that way, I say respect to Shanny, because you know, there was a part of me that felt really, really bad. I'm just like, oh my god, I'm just throwing this poor innocent victim under the bus. Shani is not a victim, and she is not not playing. She is playing out there, and I was just like, yeah, you wrote my name down. Props Todio, but also sorry, here comes on going traffic.
He's the apology. Now, you know, the Idle clue was interesting because you never thought it was a real idol, while Simon immediately did you know, what did you think of Simon's Adam and c that that disc was an idol?
I watched that and I thought, there, but for the grace of God, go I because you know that it's something, but you don't know what it is. And I guess the only way I got out of that Scott Free was I treated it almost like a maths exam in high school. You know, like in math exams you need to show you're working out. And so when I'm like, I've got this thing, and then I'm like what is it? And I'm like, I think it's an idol, but maybe it's not. It doesn't come with instruct Idols have always
come with instructions. Maybe this is a trick, Maybe this is a cause you need to start voicing out things because you know the game's there to trick you along the way. It's never going to be straightforward. And coming from the bottom of my tribe and knowing that everyone's out to get me, I don't assume that easy breaks are coming my way. I know there are booby traps throughout this entire game, and I'm like, I just don't think this is an idol, because if it is, that
came way too easily. Do you know what I mean?
I think it was clever of you. I mean, I didn't think it was an idol when I saw him get that out. I didn't see the letter. I mean, I'm pretty what.
Did you know it was? Or do you have any theories? At that stage, I.
Thought it would be that people would well for some reason, my brain lied to me, and I thought someone else had already found it before you did, or before Simon did. And I thought there might have been three of them that had surfaced somehow, and I thought maybe the three of them will put together. It may lead to you getting a you know, a fast pass to the final three.
Oh interesting.
You know, I thought that there was something more to it, but I certainly did not think it was an idol. And that's why, even when Flick had it, I thought, you know, she could have burnt that idol in front of everyone in that final and the tribal counsel that you went home, and everyone wouldn't have had the chance for j LP to say it wasn't real. She would have just burnt it and done that on good authority.
And you could have also then followed her and thrown it in the fire in good authority, and then maybe Matt, you know, God bless you, and Turf would have gone home. So I thought that, you know, I mean, when you're a viewer at home, and you would know this because now you've been a viewer and now you've been in the show. These two things have very different relationships. But that's how I thought could have played out and would have made good television.
Yeah, well, look, I think the outcome that did pan out with Flick playing the fake idol and me knowing that it wasn't and I'm the only person who could have told her, like I thought that was just deliciously yetted it like, of course it wasn't plotted because we were just muddling our way through it. But I'm like, you can not engineer a more hilarious plot line over Like I think four or five episodes like that, that butt crack idol traveled far.
How hot was that butt crack? By the way, at that particular point, just that bit there, I was like, no, wonder They put it on the ad for the next episode, so we got to watch it three times I think by the time it was all over. But it's very attractive.
But some people.
ASTI Survivor is the gayest show on TV, even if it is coded gay. That moment between Jeordi and Simon is the most hilariously homo erotic thing I've seen TV in a really long time.
You're an Australian Survivor fan, and you have obviously watched the show and would have seen a lot of these players before. Who were you the most shocked to be playing with that they were different to how you expected.
Oh, that's such an interesting question. Look, Shannon Guss, who is like a Survivor expert, she often says, you can't play the game as anyone as yourself. And I remember George. We had a bit of an exchange out there. There was interesting tension between George and I that didn't quite convey to the TV, but George did sit me down and he said, Ben, one of the things you've got to realize is who you are in the game is
who you are in real life. And I actually do think he's got a really strong point there, because you can't keep a mask up for very long out there. And even George, who's such a big character, that is him on the island, and you know, I've hung out with Georgian in real life. That's kind of him in real life, Like he is a big, bold character who's full of gameplay, big declarations, and an incredible political mind.
And so I think, if anything, I was probably more surprised by the fact that who I expected them to be kind of matched my reality when I actually interacted with them. I was really looking forward to playing with Haley. We were really tired out there on the island, really looking forward to playing with Nina. We remain close outside of the game, even though she tried to murder me several times, which is just hilarious. We both understand it's
a game. But Nina also fed me key bits of intel at key moments so I could help save myself, which was really appreciated.
But the one thing I felt was that I felt like we didn't get enough of an explanation as to why the Heroes tribe didn't seem to bond with you.
It's interesting there's been a few theories as to why, because I think a lot of audience members share a little bit of your battlement around that. So one is obviously making a fake idol in front of everyone, and by that stage, I realized my stocks were so low. But Page had found this animal skull in the woods. Shanni, I noticed, was really good at braiding. The three of us kind of like started this fake idol project together, And my recollection of Island time was we were like,
oh my god, let's do this thing together. How can we make it better? How can we make it better? Once we get to tribe swap, I'm so hero strong. Let's pass it to whoever has the fewest tribe members original hero tribe members and use this thing as a weapon. And so I'm not sure if that actually made people genuinely scared of me, or whether they were seeking something to confirm biases or hunches they already had about me.
It is interesting. I know, Nina on the other side of the game told me, dude, we were just really scared of you, like we were paranoid around you because you seemed smart. And I have to laugh at that, because I guess I am smart in some ways. But I felt like on the island, I was the most basic bitch, you know. I was just like, please don't hurt me. I just really want to help win challenges. I don't want to be a liability to this tribe. You want some rice, you want some coconut? Here, it
is here, it is. You want me to feel your water bottles like there.
Was Maybe it was too in your face though, Ben like maybe it was two may Well put together. You know, look, I think, I mean, I still think of those sorts of things in all reality shows. You know, you have to be able to help people improve that you have a worth in the game without making it look like you're doing it just to have people like you. Yeah,
it could be hard. I assume there might have been sorts of conversations that you're having with them that was unsettling them, you know, I mean maybe putting out out there or talking about what it is that you do might have been intimidating to them because of your intelligence.
I also think I'm just a really different proposition to a lot of people on the island as well, like you know, race, size, sexuality, Like there are a lot of people in my tribe who are very similar and you see them ban to each other, and I think in extreme circumstances, you do flock to safety and familiarity, and I'm a bit more of an unfa familiar, untested presence to probably a lot of people on the tribe. And I'm not saying that accounts to everything, but I
know that even with myself. You know, I got really tight with Hailey because we come from an academic background. We read some like we not just read similar books, we'd read exactly the same novel in the lead up to shooting the show, like that's just spooky. So of course we had a lot to talk about, and we're not massive physical threats, so we kind of bonded together there. But when you are playing as a bit of an outsider, it's a bit of catch twenty two because you don't
want to emphasize the things that make you different. You want to go that extra mile to prove that you are like them. And the way that I tried to bridge that was through helpfulness and through humor. But obviously that didn't work. But that's usually how I approach things in life, and like I said before, you can't really play the game as anyone but yourself.
One of the interesting things that was said online, though, was that if one of the Meat Trait had made that idol, had been making a fake idol themselves, it would have been celebrated. It may have come across differently. I'm not sure if you saw any of that conversation, but do you think that it would have been celebrated differently and looked at differently if it was one of the meat Tray.
Oh look, we'll never know. But what I do know is things like, look, I overbid at the ouction. I don't even remember overbidding. I think that's less strategic and more about me being bad at maths, but that immediately caused suspicion for me, Whereas I think at least one person on the New Villains tribe one of the meat Tray overbid on their reward and that was celebrated. So I think, you know, none of us go into the game neutral. All of us go with different kinds of
social currency in the game. And I guess I could go into the game, you know, knowing how to start a conversation with anyone. Being an interviewer like yourself, you have to bring that to the game. But other people have the advantages of being, you know, immediately someone you look up to, like I don't have much hype, But if you've got hype, people are literally looking up to like immediately they see you like a leader and do
not want to play against you. And also you flock to where the strength is, like I don't have that physical strength. My whole thing, especially in that phase of the game, is please do not be a liability to these athletes, like, do not be the one who stacks it. Don't be the one who gets hospitalized poor Jackie and George. Just be the one who can be helpful and funny out there while also hopefully proving your worth with the challenges which I think you know two puzzle challenges and
being instrumental to solving them. I was just like, well, hopefully have proven my worth. Hopefully I have proved my worth, but no dice.
Well, just quickly before we move off that though, how did you know that?
The Like?
That was interesting that someone was like he knew that what an idol looked like, you know, he knew that it was green this year, Meena, I said that, yeah, And I thought that was a really interesting thing for her to say at that point, because how did you know that that? I mean, you were building an idol that looked exactly the same as the others.
How did that happen? Is I genuinely didn't know what an idol looked like because every season the looks of the idle change.
They do.
All I knew was like, if we make something that looks convincingly like an idol, and we just happened to have this green stone on our bag, and like, rip off that stone, turn it into the idol, wrap it up with a skull. I know how to do arts and crafts, shiny braid, give me the skull flick. You found something in the woods, let's add it to it. Like, I didn't know what an idol looked like at that stage, So it's interesting that they leapt to that conclusion that I did.
I thought it was clever. I thought it was clever that they did. When you do a social experiment like this, you do you do hear contestants say, you know, this feels a lot like high school? You know? Was that the case for you? And? Well, I guess how did it feel being back at school as an LGBTO warrior like yourself in twenty twenty three, Because no offense to you and I, but we went to school many years ago.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, many many years ago. Well look, and to that point, I think after Jerry, I might have been the second oldest person on the heroes tribe. So it does show you, like I also had an age gap that I needed to bridge with the other contestants too.
But was it like high school? And did the LGBTI factor come into play?
I don't think the queenness necessarily came into play. I mean, certainly the talk there was pretty heterosexual, and you want to be able to talk about sex, but you're also aware that your conversations of sex are going to be pretty confronting, like queer sex is just confronting to a lot of straight people. You don't get to have those conversations like the way the men talked about women out there is something that I haven't encountered since high school actually,
and so I couldn't quite find a foothold. It's like, yeah, tits like I'm not like I can't do that. I'm not that person. So that was challenging. But I don't think it's like sexuality was like necessarily the main.
It just was more curious, Ben, because I was thinking about it in the sense of this is a real social experiment and you are putting people back into a situation where we as humans fall into line like we you know, we mimic things that have happened in our lie before. And I wondered whether or not Survivor in twenty twenty three represents what it would be like to be in school in twenty twenty three.
Well, it reminded me what it was like to be in high school in nineteen ninety nine, which is to say, you know, jock's rule, and these are lovely jocks by the way, I love them and I get along with them outside of the game, but it does mean that you are on the outer and you need to find other crafty or as others would say, shifty ways of making sure that you survive another another day. And sometimes desperate,
desperate situations call for desperate means. And I was just like, well, if you think I'm shifty, I'll give you something to really think that I'm shifty about. But to that point, I hadn't I hadn't actually done anything that should have portrayed trust or made me question made them question my judgment.
But I do think when you're so conspicuously different, you know, I'm obviously such a different person, it's natural and expected and it's not an unfamiliar John to me to have people immediately be a little bit more cautious around you.
If there was more series of the Family Law, we could easily see you and survivor.
Family Law season seventeen.
Yeah, and how do you write that on how.
Well, there's way more material than what we saw on the screen. So and that's it's all here.
I'll catch up with you for a drink for that because I want to know. But we're talking very PG exit interview style of conversation. You know, you would have brought a lot of new viewers to this series, and I saw that a lot online, people saying they came to the show because of you, you know, But I wanted to know about your inner circle and what they thought, because I imagine that a lot of you're in a circle,
you know, reality TV is outside of their bubble. What did they think of Australian Survivor.
It's so interesting, you say. That's quite perceptive because a lot of people in my life are either like me who love pop culture and actually take it quite seriously, you know. In a way my PhD thesis, which sounds so lofty phg theisis but it was kind of about pop culture really and representation. So I love marrying those two things. I love to think deeply about shows like Survivor because I think, like you say, they represent aspects of the real world, like high school or the work
or the modern workplace or your neighborhood. And I think Survivors also a deeply intellectual game. It's about politics and striking deals and strategy and maths, and so a lot of my friends who are watching it with me for the first time. In fact, the bunch of friends I was watching it with last night, which is my my tribal episode, most of them had never seen an episode before and they were completely fascinated by it drew really
strong kind of conclusions, had very strong opinions. I ran into another friend recently, Jared, who said he'd never watched an episode of Survivor before and very hilariously equipped, and now it's become my entire personality. I think people are surprised that a reality TV, a reality competition TV show can be so smart. And for my screen in writing friends who might not work in reality TV, but they work in drama in comedy, they're like, Wow, the drama
in this is incredible. And I think that's testament to the producers and the editors of Survivor. They are the heroes, the real heroes of this show in finding out. Okay, this is a really good thread this week, let's follow this thread hard. We've got a protagonist, we've got an obstacle, and we've got an enemy, and we've got complications around them. If you saw everything that happened out there on the island, it would be like how I experienced it, which is
an absolute hot mess all about hot messes. But you know, that's that's not a TV show. That's just you know, CCTV footage.
You know. But that's the interesting thing. If you're going to be on television these days and have a show as good as this, You've got to be really smart. You've got to make this tight. You know, you go back to seeing what reality TV look like two decades ago in the You need to be fast, you need to be sharp, and you need to take people on a much faster journey than just allowing people to be in a glass box.
Yeah, this isn't as epic for a reason. You script epic stories, and this is what we've got for heroes versus villains.
Well, the casting is brain just before you go, I've been asking people, We're not what you know now, but you know, when you left the tribal council that night, who did you think was going to win Survivor twenty twenty three?
Oh well, who I think will win and who I hope will win might be two different answers, but we'll take it.
Well.
Actually, in some ways I could see Nina winning, and I would love for her to win too. She's got a great story to tell her mother one as a villain in Samoa. Nina's now at twenty two days, which is when she was injured and out of the challenge, and I'm a big fan of Nina.
Okay, I'll take that. I love that. And then would you ever go back? And if you did go back, is there a way in which you would see a theme suitable enough for you to return?
So come back, I'd have to get it past my mother and my boyfriend, who both don't want the hospital and think I was very lucky to get through this season without having done so.
So that's a negative ghost writer.
They may look. I'm very persuasive, especially if I've got an idol around my neck.
That's the closest I've ever had to know, though. I've been asking everyone as they've come out, and you know, everyone's like, dude's got me back on there, and I'm like, wow, so I was like crack cocaine. But yeah, I think that's the closest for someone saying no.
No, oh, it's just I need to think about it. Love the game. Though I love the game. My immediate instinct is, what.
If the personal trainer said to you when we first chatted, you said that the personal trainer didn't know you were going into Survivor, but trained you like an athlete. Do they have any what's the word for it that Were they proud of you in there, thinking that they trained you? What was What do they think of your time in there? Oh?
I think they're just very pleased that my rotator cuff is still attacked.
You were fantastic. I'm sure I'll see you.
Take good care, let's later