ASHER KEDDIE & DAVID WENHAM - FAKE - PARAMOUNT +

It's in the news today, but it was actually on TV Reload.

The podcast last week They're Life.

Hey guys, welcome back to TV Reload. I want to thank you for clicking and downloading on today's episode with Asher Ketty and David Wenham, who are both featured in the new Paramount Plus series Fake. The eight part limited series is based on a true story when magazine feature writer Bertie Bell meets success for grazier Joe Bert on a dating app and believes that she has found her

Thank you, guys.

I have a friend of mine who works in the media and he rang me one afternoon and said that he needed to write a feature the next day and was looking for ideas. And I said to him, You've got to write about Fake because I'd watched the screeners. I watched it all in one go, all eight episodes in one sitting, and I said, you have to watch it. It is so compelling. Everyone in Australia is going to be talking about it. Get on board, get ahead of the story. And he said, could I say that it's

Go oh gosh, that's good.

So people need to cancel all of their subscriptions. I need to get Paramour Plus.

That's right, and put aside one night where they don't sleep and just watch it all.

Yes, how did you both find watching the show? You guys were there creating these characters and reading these lines. But then have you were you able to watch it as a viewer? What was that like?

Well, I don't know if Day's watched it.

No, I don't. I hardly ever watch my own work. I don't watch stuff. Unfortunately. I wish I could, because I'm hypercritical and so I can't be completely objective and just watch something and enjoy it for what it is. Yeah, I've always have my critical faculties on, so I'm not a consumer. I don't watch anything. Really. I read. I know that it's sort of bamboozles people, but yeah, that's just me. I'm a book weirder.

Well, I read mostly too, that's my entertainment.

I think we are actually very similar in our process doing the actual work.

That's a bit that we like doing it.

It is the true thing, that's the process being enjoyed the most, right, So, and this says was incredible together was creatively it was just so so satisfying, wonderful. But we are a little different in that spect in post production. So I'm quite okay to watch something I didn't used to be. I used to be very much like David. Oh god, no, I the thought of watching myself was mortifying. I would just pull myself apart, and I want to go back and do it again, and what would be

Bit more objective.

I mean, frankly, I just got you know you're watching if you're in every scene and you're sort of.

A part of well. I wasn't a producer on that show.

I was really involved in you know, early cuts, and it was important to me to watch it. I think I became a little more relaxed about it, which is kind of good because I'm with the show like Fate I was producing, and I really do need to watch it. I need to sit in the carts and need to do in the sound mixes. And I was able to see this story in particular a lot more holistically than you know, pull myself about.

For me, the reason why I don't watch myself is Ash is a producer on this, which is fantastic, is I have no control over what goes on the screen. I have no control over the performance. So I have control on the day, but in terms of the construction of the piece, I have no controller. Obviously, very very frustrating sometimes and annoying when you know that, well, actually, if only they've done that, that would have belong. So that's why I don't watch. It's better not to stay away.

I was going to say, is that a fear of the lack of control because you're going to see something and you're going to go I need that to be changed. You do want to enter that space because I guess you.

Can consider the opportunity to make things better.

Yeah, it's a drive for perfection and I understand that, and certainly for me with anything i'm not producing, I don't really have the desire to watch it either, because we've done it.

We've completed the world. Really, you know, that's the bit for us. And it's just true.

We have to say that I just only was curious about this, and I don't feel like I've ever asked that. This is episode like four hundred and forty of this podcast, and I don't think I've ever asked one question to anyone, because I can't imagine that it would be a comfortable experience.

It's incredible, very but honestly, it's like, yeah, iys, I always look forward, So yeah, the thing that I'm involved in it, you know, at any point in time, that's where I'm focusing. Yeah, But honestly, it's the action of creating that's the thing that really fires me.

Actually, you managed to work alongside some a lot of the people that created Safe Home SBS last year, which was like another series that very similar to this, was very it was psychological thriller in a way because of what's going on. Did you watch Safe Home last year?

And I did? Yeah, I thought it was brilliant. It's another image in banks produce that well.

Yeah, of course, yeah.

I had her on the podcast to talk about it. I remember saying to her again, we're drinking, but we're not boozounds. By the way, but I remember saying to Imagen, I was like, I felt kind of bad that I was drinking red wine while watching this show is entertainment because the subject matter was so dark but yet so compelling. And it feels kind of strange that these days, here we are with our popcorn, you know, a glass of wine, watching true crime like this, digesting true crime like this.

Well, I think people, I think people are leaning into watching really smart drama. And I don't think that the content, even if the content's brutal or it's uncomfortable or confronting or however you want to describe it, if it's emotionally

Think for some reason we sort of feel maybe it's just me, but I feel compelled to find out more about people. I love people watching people, and I think that this particular series is almost like a character study on the psychological fantastica, which you know, like gas lighting and all of these new terms that are coming about are all things we're kind of fascinated with because we see them in our real world. We recognize them in people. David,

That's an interesting question. Actually, did he believe his own lies? Yeah? As ashually said, he he's a classic fantasist, and the thing with him, I believe this is how I approach

I had a girlfriend that went out with a guy very similar to this, not as drawn out, and it was sort of It's interesting because like this, this show sort of has it beginning in the middle and an end, and it's based on a true story. My girlfriend only really had a small situation with this man, and she

With this person, you felt it something.

Yeah, it was bubbling away behind the surface. And no one could say that to my friend and she knew it as well. But it's you know, you felt like it's rude to pull your friend aside and says, this man you're in love with or spending time is he a liar? And that's what's interesting about this as well, is watching Birdie struggle with what she can probably sense the whole time is happening, but she is pushing it away as hard as she can. She doesn't want.

She's also questioning herself, you see, because you know her self esteem is low, she's lacking in confidence.

That's this time in her life.

So not that that means that that That's why Joe was able to get her to believe his narrative because I.

Think it can happen to anyone. I really do, and I love when.

David talks about this. There's we we inherently trust people. We want to believe what they say.

I met a gentleman who is an ex federal policeman who now is a private investigator and he gets hired by people to basically to investigate if people are having affairs. That's one of the things he does. And the first thing he'll do is ask the client, Okay, tell me what you know about this gentleman. And the client will say, well, he's told me he's a blah blah blah. Then he told me he got that, and then he told me what he would do. And the investigator always say, Okay,

That's human nature. We want to trust people and we want to be we want to feel good and swept up and connected to other people emotionally and physically.

And you can see how easily this can happen.

I like to think about it as in as we as human loves to fill the dots. We can all go into the room and see something. We can all see the same thing and come out and interpret it. Differently, and it usually is because of the way in which we want to interpret that situation. The lens that we put over the top of it, I find is really fascinating and it's something that we all struggle to really admit that we've done.

Yeah, and we all do it, and we're.

All doing it all of the time, which is like, is crazy? So fake is inspired by Stephanie Wood's memoir, and I have to say, I am such a big fan of Mom and Mere podcast Maya Freeman Friedman and Asha obviously you are too, because you basically are her and another series that you're filming at.

The moment, very inspired by her.

But had you listened to that episode of her podcast when she had Stephanie on there, Because I listened to it in twenty nineteen and I was completely riveted by her bravery to share that story.

Yes, I know, right, listen to the podcast. I just I read the book, and of course it is our drama is inspired by her experience, but it is very much also our own interpretation of it. I guess I just wanted to stick with the I only read the book once too. I didn't refer to it again. I just I read it I felt very compelled by it. I wanted to be involved in developing a TV show with Imagen, and we were inspired by the themes that Stephanie explores in her book as opposed to the specifics

And that's what we did with this show.

So it's very much, you know, a fictional show about these two people, but yet that many, many, many people globally have experienced. So I guess that you know, what we set out to do was to make it the most experiential journey we could, mean inside the point of view of Bertie and then of Joe as well.

Yeah, it was interesting. I went back and listened to the podcast this morning, just coincidentally with having a little bit more time before chatting to you, and I shocked at how much of her dialogue you say exactly the same way.

Oh do you think?

And it must be coincidental you're not mimicking her tones, as in your not trying to well.

I didn't speak to her before throughout the shoot. No, I met her at the end. I think we met her at the end.

Yet that is so unbelievable to hear because like, oh, granted, I listened to that podcast in twenty nineteen, so I'd had a long disconnect from it and then watched the series, and it was so interesting then to listen to that podcast and hears Stephanie's words and for her to say very clear piece of dialogue that you had in the series.

I think Annye did take from the book in some ways, like actual instances, you know, the events that it had occurred for her. We certainly did that. But I think that's the point is that this can happen to anybody, and has happened to many people. An involvement like this that unfortunately can push you someone into kind of losing their identity as they know it. It's very common, so we all kind of speak about it similarly, do you know.

What I mean?

Yeah, Well, it was interesting. I'll just say, like tonally, you weren't sounding like her, but the emotion of what she was saying was what you captured and what was there Again, of course that's how you're going to sort of use the nuances to say those words, Do you know what I mean? Because it's so emotional. You know, there's a podcast who the Hell is Hamish or Who the Fuck is Hamish that's out at the moment, and

I think I think there's a few different categories here. There's you know, there was a show on Netflix, Tinderswindler that was a specific example of a guy who obviously was motivated by you know, he wanted, he wanted He screwed women for sex and money and what There was a very clear motivation. This guy in Fake Joe Burt is not that person. He for me, for my mind,

That's urinating but confounding.

You know, obviously her psychological condition without a doubt, and he's not. I would contend that he's not really aware of the extent of damage, psychological damage that he is actually causing on women.

Agree my family, I reckon have this in our DNA. Now, this is a big thing to sort of say, because I really, yeah, it's in our DNA, and I have to try really hard not to do it. I'm sure people listening to my podcast over the four years probably find it quite disturbing that I'm even admitting to this, But I was brought up around fantastic storytellers people men that were in our family, women that were in our family that were very good at telling story. There was

In complete conviction, with complete.

And utter conviction. And that was all my mom's side of the family, but my dad had it as well. Dad would just be there freely telling people stories that I would as a child would be sitting there.

Going on everywhere.

But I also would be thinking I was there for that. That's not how it happened. Yes, right, Dad worked at three W and I remember he picked me up from school and they're at the Botanical which was like a water hole for people in the media, and I would have been like twelve at the box, I would have been like twelve, and he was holding court with these people telling these stories, and I remember thinking none of

Why do you think he did it and your grandfather?

I think they wanted to be compelling.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, when it's.

Not malicious and you're not trying to steal money from someone, you're not trying to hurt someone. Where is the responsibility or the integrity that's being lost in a story by a person doing that? Is it bad?

It's a very interesting sort of conversation you've taken out there. I'm thinking about it, think, yeah, I think maybe just at the roots of it, there's a need to be loved, and he's doing it a need to be loved. Yes, at its simplest essence.

I found that within myself. I found like, I'm in what he is now and I don't do it. But it had to be a really conscious decision. When I thought about having this conversation with you two today and being so vulnerable with just revealing all of this, I just got to a point where I didn't want someone to say I was a liar. I felt disgusted by that, and amazing things had happened in my life that I didn't need to lie as well, which you know.

That is interesting point. We spoke about this every now and again. Actually, Joe, if he's like he's obviously, you know, a very smart individual. You know, he has energy whatever, and you just thought if he put all of those talents and energies into just one person or to one job and we're it'd be an extremely successful person.

Yeah yeah, yeah, Why isn't he doing that? Do you know what I mean? Like in this scenario with him with Joe, you know, look, he's wanting to do this on me.

I just don't think he can be satiated.

Essentially, this could even have a series too. I don't know if you could do a series too, whether that's even a conversation or whether you're allowed to talk about it, but the after effects of how this story ends. There's still so much more that we could talk about, because I know when I was reading some of Stephanie's work that you know he continued to contact her after she outed him. She changed his name and protected him that way, but his friends and family knew it was him, and

No, not really. We were kind of very much in the NO.

I joked about it that, you know, the next series should be called Real through Joe's perspective, an experiential trip through Joe. I don't think we're going to I don't think.

We're I think episode six is enough, utterly how over when I saw it, I think episode six in series ones enough. When it ships me OV two, Joe, he's very busy. He's so busy. It was exhausting.

I just I turned to my partner and said, I was hoping that they were going to do this, but I felt like this would be the final episode, do you know what I mean? Like, when we got to see the switch of POV, I was like isn't that fascinating kind of like skin crawling in a way, we think, so, do you think that there should be This is where my friends who have watched this are starting to talk about, do you think we need to create laws around social media?

I wonder whether it actually just will start to evolve in that way and go down that path of things being legalized.

And I just don't know how on earth because of so much how would you please that this is the thing?

I mean, that's the same thing with social media, radio age restriction as well. I'm thinking about that a lot at the moment. Of course, I've got a fourteen year old and a nine year old, and the parent in me instinctively goes, oh my gosh, yes, absolutely not to sixteen. You know, every part of me screams that because I'm really worried about it. But then then you think further about it, though, and you think, how on earth are they going to police that?

How is that going to work? It raises so many questions.

I mean, I guess things will be put to the public eventually, but I can't work out in my mind how that will work. So I wonder about is this the same a similar thing?

You know, child like to find it? So that's what I found with my girlfriends that have got children now that they swore, you know, my children will not be on Facebook until they're sixteen. They found that these are That's.

What I'm saying, like, how are they going to police it? How are they going to enforce this?

But then when do you actually, like, when do you start having that conversation with your children because you kind of need to start arming them with that information before they're tempted to get into that space. Do you know what I mean?

Oh, I'm always having that conversation with the big boy that started a few years ago, you know, when he wanted to jump on TikTok and all the things that his friends were looking at and yeah, the little one is not there yet, but he's already aware of the conversation.

And it's a tricky one. But I think it's similar.

Though, perhaps to how on earth will that be policed if there were restrictions online dating apps and on behavior.

Basically, I'm not.

Sure because like, the interesting thing about getting yourself involved in these spaces I always think is that no one thinks it all happened to them. And I remember years ago. I've been in a relationship now for fifteen years, but I was with a man beforehand, and I'd stopped talking to my friends and my family. It was really weird, and it wasn't until someone said to me that I was in a almost like a domestic violent scenario. And I just always grew up thinking that would never be me,

And then they visit, oh that's me, I'm in it.

Red flags. I feel like it's a good time to ask you about this. You've both been in the dating world at some points of your life. Did you both have red flags that you would look out for when it came to the type of people you chose to be in relationships with.

Well, thankfully David and I skipped we by past the whole old life digital dating world, which were very grateful for, I have to say so. Yeah, I mean, of course, you know, everyone sees red Everyone's encountered red flags meeting new people, and whether they're friendships or you know, more intimate relationships whatever. Yeah, of course along the way, I've seen red flags. I mean, I don't know specifically what my red got so long ago that I was.

I've never really dated. I don't know that my.

Only equivalent one was. And it's not a dating situation. It was I became sort of sort of friendly with the man who was a poet and he was trying to get me involved in a film that he had a script that was being written and whatever, and I

But do you pick them up along the way and there I think anybody we now have all of that red flags are something we didn't have before. Like when I was started out dating, no one talked about red flags be a different term for them. No one talked about gasoline.

Great flags are instinct, don't they. I mean, that's what it is.

It's your instinct and whether you acknowledge it or not is a choice, I guess, isn't it. And it's easy to not acknowledge your instinct that's telling you that there's something wrong and that you don't feel comfortable with somebody. It's easy to push that. It can be easy to push that down when the person that you're involved with has a certain amount of control. And I think that's true of the relationship between John Birdie too.

Society is reliant on trust, the fact that we trust each other. The moment that all that trust goes out and we turn into a bunch of paralleled people going around the place, I think society would absolutely crumble. So I think we're hardwired to trust out the better aspects of people.

I have these other questions for you both about it and Asha, you mentioned that you didn't you only saw Stephanie after you'd finished the show. Is that right, so you'd shot it.

I think we were about three quarters of the way through and she came to visit day said visit.

Yeah, we said hello at lunchtime. Yeah.

I was curious about what her thoughts are on your performance, Like did she call you after? I haven't spoken to her.

I don't want to know what I don't know what anyone thinks of my performance, of my business performance.

If you ever feel insecure about yourself, feel free to give me a call. I could probably be one of your biggest fans all of your shows, like Love My Way. Someone gave that to me. I was working in radio at the time and it hadn't come out, and I watched the first season of Love My Way and it was like someone. Yeah, it was. It was like someone had lifted my my skull.

I was like, it was a special show, wasn't it.

Nothing had ever been made that felt as close to being real as that.

It was special. The great group of people.

And all the characters were incredibly flawed, and we hadn't seen that, you know, and we always had to have like a story, yeah.

Not a no ensemble as a whole like that. I guess. Yeah. It was fairly daring, wasn't it in that way?

And you were incredible as Julia. And I still mimic a lot of your lines from that show to my partner. And I told Claudia Carvn this story and she was disturbed. But whenever I put myself into a situation where I'm like, feel a bit uncomfortable and I need a little bit bit of extra confidence, I would pretend to be you. I would be like if I was at the doctors and I'd just sort of be worried about, you know, what I have to tell because I'd be scared of

What's your favorit line?

At Nash I can't even take my kids to the park, which is tom but we've got to go to the cross and get some pills. I kind of I kind of take my kids to.

Talk about love my way because I recognize the lines from twenty years ago.

Oh my god, we've got to.

That is just too.

Much that you remember that. I love it just so.

But I say that all the time because my partner will come home it's my job to take the dog, our dog to the park at the end of the day, and he'll be like, what have you done all day? Like, you know, because I've obviously been podcasting and googling myself, I don't know, And he'd be like, why haven't you taken the dog to the park And I'd be like, I can't even take my dog to the park. I'm just so busy, and it's just very, very bad.

They were great characters, aren't they.

Yeah, cross to get my pills.

Yeah. I just so bizarre that so relatable content. I think when I watch some of the things that has been said on TV that have come out of your mouth, Fasher, I just think I just feel it's so relatable, like what about him?

My gosh, Yeah, they come on, come on, we're all looking forward to seeing a.

Bit though, David. I mean, there's so many of your movies. The Boys is one of them that I remember being in the cinema being that little bit too young, and I was frightened by that performance. Same that movie was frightening. I don't think I was. I was probably old enough, but I wasn't mentally old enough to watch. I think it came out in ninety seven or anyway, I would

I sho watch the Boys and scare himself. That's what I reckon.

Oh my god, Yeah, go back and watch that. Actually, I'd love this. That's a separate podcast, just just you being forced to go back and unpack all of your all of your.

Work that'd been interesting, like woulds it show Google books or whatever? Got Of course we have watched the reactions of us watching our own work and then having to talk about it. Yes, idiots, Yeah, yeah.

Shocking, David. I was going to say that my dad really wanted me to be an actor for a while and I was terrible, Like he took me to audition for a country practice, couldn't remember the lines.

And then you couldn't country breakfast.

I'm forty four. I just looked good for my age.

Wow wow, And did what happened?

Well? I went in and read for the show, read for a country practice. I was to play a small kid who got sick from drinking contaminated water. Anyway, I definitely didn't get a call back, didn't get asked to do it, and through the idea of being an actor out the window for many years until I saw you in the movie Cozy, which was a film of yours at the cinemas in nineteen ninety six. After watching that film, I was like, I want to be an actor. It didn't well spoiler alert, that was great.

Love that.

Anyway, I am running out of time very quickly. And I have one question that I finished all of my podcasts with also was curious to know, Asha, what are your thoughts on Nicole Kidman doing the next season of Nine Perfect Strangers. I'm surprised there's a second series of that, and I don't know if you're involved in it. I don't know.

No, No, I'm not. No, it's a whole new set of guests. Well, I mean, I don't think it's surprising. I think it's it lends itself that the set, you know, the environment of the show. What am I trying to say? It lends itself to a second series, absolutely, because you get a whole new raft of characters to explore.

As the guests of Marsha Nicole's character.

Could I be a guest? You could?

You should be. They've already finished filming, David still.

Have to do it.

You'd be a great guest. Yeah, I'm excited to see it. No, I have nothing to do with it. It's all new folks except for Nicole of course.

Wow.

And she was Marshall. I found her so repulsive the whole way through people.

In the best possible way, she's like the least. Yeah, she's the opposite of that. She's gorgeous.

Absolutely. Well, Before you go, I'll ask you both a question that I ask everyone who joins the podcast. What's something from behind the scenes, something that the audience who have watched fake wouldn't get to know, kind of like a funny anecdote that might have happened along the way into.

While in making it.

You know, this is one of the trickiest questions to answer.

Do you put this to all your kids?

And is you're a longboard after you?

Yeah, I'll tell you. I'll tell you a funny thing. The reason why it's there is because the very first guest I had was an executive producer from a television show, and I asked him that question just because I put it in the rundown and it was interesting. He answered the question and it got repeated all around the world. It literally was in I think it was something like one hundred and eighty articles were created. Did answer? Well. He was the executive producer of I'm a Celebrity, Get

You know, oh my gosh.

So he'd run out of the set of the show like just like a madman, like you know'd been in that jungle, and that confines with that jungle really just talking about all this stuff, and then he thought, hang on a zank, No, I was married when.

That had running out to tell them that he could don't play it.

And what happened?

Did?

They didn't?

They they did. They changed it. And the interesting thing about that, producer Alex Madverttichers, was that he he didn't say in the podcast who it was. But what was really interesting about it was that it spawned the listeners to try and work out who they thought it was. So people thought it was Shane Warn, people thought it was all of these different people. In England, it got picked up and it was in the press over there. I launched this TV podcast episode.

Wow, I don't think anywhere. No, nothing juicy. I mean, I don't know.

Do we have a shared anecdote? What anecdotes are not my strong point.

I had to say no, not when you're just yeah, they come into spontaneously memories very difficult.

I think that happened. Did anything happen? That was kind of.

What I would like to know is clearly the two of you don't audition for these things and actually are a producer of But did you both get together to see what the chemistry was like between the two of you, because these two, these two characters, like from the moment you two meet in that very first scene, you then build and build and build with the relationship between the two of you. How did you create that the tension and the spark between the two of you.

Well, I guess that's what actors do, you know. I mean, this sort of strange thing about chemistry were actors.

This is what actors do.

And luckily, you know, it's great when you work with someone and you share a similar process and you have perhaps a similar sense of humor and you there is an ease and a relaxation between you, And certainly that's true of David to Night. You know that that's kind of wonderful when that happens. But if it's not there in any given partnership on screen, you create it.

That's what we do.

It's interesting, do you remember that quote from I think it's Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins and they both filmed The Science of the Lamps and they both there together, you know, the whole way through the film. And to create that they you know, just their actors. They both tell the story. They just that was the role they had to play. But they bore best to each other later on that they were scared of each other. Anthony was scared of her as Clarice and she was scared

Oh.

There were plenty of times where I felt very affected by it, and a lot of the time I wasn't entire Even though we are very much like to interrogate the words on the page, I suppose and make sure that the scene we're going to deliver is what we wanted to be, there's also plenty of surprise in performance, you know, and with David there was all the time I wasn't quite sure what I was going to get, and I was, you know, did feel like on a

So I think there were plenty of surprises along the way.

I mean there were for me as we were performing together, wasn't always sure what was going to come next.

But I love that. That's the fun.

That's why you do it, hey, That's why we do it.

Yeah, the story that you know there's many different ways to tell a story, and it's fun.

To do that.

I'm just so in awe of you both as actors people, and what a joy to be able to talk to you to both today, particularly about this show, which I think is just got legs. I think it's going to get up and run away because very much like Baby Reindeer, everything about this is compelling. You could come at this story from so many different angles. So for anyone listening to us talking about this today, subscribe to Paramount Plus and disappear into this world. It's compelling and brilliant work

Thanks, thanks so much.

Yeah, good chalk, thank you, really good.

Thank you anyway, enjoy chatting. I'll let you both go, but.

You liked it.

What's love to you both.

Sayd bye