Welcome back to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris, and on this podcast, I'll be going behind the scenes with the biggest players in television. Some housekeeping right at the start. Please like and share the podcast. I love hearing your feedback, and that's a huge part of gaining a wider audience of people who also love juicy stories from behind the scenes of television. Speaking of juicy, I really love Heather McDonald's Juicy Scoops podcast. You really have to check her out.
She's a little nuts, but if you love Bravo and Housewives content, I think that podcast is right up your ally. This week has been a massive week in television. We saw the return of Celebrity Apprentice on Channel nine, and I have to admit I'm really liking Matha from Maths when I didn't actually watch that series of Maths she was in. But I also love David from Survivor on that show. Both of them are a little full of themselves, but I think that's part of the reason why it's
so much fun to watch. Then an exciting week on Binge with the Friends Reunion, and I also saw a sneak preview of the final episode of mayor of e Town. But I don't want to say too much about that except it's very good. Both were really good in very different ways. I wished some of those friends actors hadn't had so much plastic surgery because it was a tad creepy, But the reunion was worth the wait after a few delays. My favorite part was just seeing them all walk back
onto that really iconic set today's episode. As a cracker, I have Aaron Sedman. He is an American creator, developer, documentary filmmaker and television producer. He is known for a number of non fiction television series and documentary feature films. You would have seen a fair chunk of his work over the years. I very much remembered his work with the Leah Remoni Scientology in The Aftermath series, which was brilliant.
But a few of you would have seen Sedmund's work on the Paris Hilton documentary, which made a lot of noise last year in the media. This chat was arranged by Binge to support Selena plus Chef, which is a new cooking show on the network which has just launched series two. It's a really fun show with Selena Go as the host and for you fellow Australians. Curtistone is in episode one of series two and he is really awesome. On that episode, I felt very proud. So let's get started.
I'd like to welcome you and Aaron Siedman to the podcast.
Wow you went right for the controversial question. A program about our religion hosted by Miss Remony is doomed to be a cheap reality TV show. My producing partner thought I had totally ruined, like I was going to alienate Paris.
Feel like ral thinks they know me. That's all right, that's fine.
Who has an interesting story that maybe we don't know the totality of it.
The winner of American Idol.
This was the first time Selena appeared on camera in an unscripted television show. Hey it's Selena. As everyone probably knows by now, I'm not the best cook. It's really important to be ruthless in the development of your ideas.
A you mated you Well.
I'm doing good. Yeah. Happy. The world is reopening and getting back to normal. I'm not sure what it's like in Australia, but in the United States, people are generally speaking, getting their vaccinations and returning to life. Somewhat like it was before the pandemic.
Well, interesting enough, we're going into a lockdown, which starts today in Melbourne. So we're going into a snap lockdown because there's actually just been an outright here.
Wow, I didn't realize that the United States was doing so terribly, as you know, for so long. It's almost ironic that in the final endpoint of this pandemic, we're now emerging by getting all these shots and all these arms. I mean literally, that's just the story here. You wouldn't think that that would be our ending with such a terrible, disastrous experience really since the beginning of the pandemic. So
I'm sorry. You guys are going in the lockdown and it is very uneven depending on the country in terms of how they're responding to COVID.
Well, you know what is a good thing, though, I will just continue watching your work because I've been rewatching and watching you know, so much of your work, knowing I was going to have this interview with today. Of course, I watched Selena and Chef. I've watched both series. I rewatched because i'd seen it before Scientology in the aftermath, but I was able to go and watch Minefield to Classified,
the Pitch Nights Talk. I've just been watching so much of it, so what I haven't finished, I can now keep watching because I'm locked in my house.
There's the poster for the Pitch. That is amazing that you've had all the time to watch all of those shows. Thank you so much for doing that.
I just don't understand how you might feel about all of this, because you know, how do you comprehend looking back at such a masterclass of documentary filmmaking.
Well, it's in some ways, I think our work has evolved with the genre itself. So you know, if you go back to the early days of unscripted television, was somewhat rudimentary and it didn't incorporate a lot of the filmmaking that we now come to expect with nonfiction projects. And so I like to look at my filmography with the sense of as the genre evolved and grew, my work and my colleagues work was able to kind of grow with it and hopefully elevate it and push the
genre to those heights that we're now at today. I mean, it is really remarkable the filmmaking that's happening in the
nonfiction space. Really is as good as most of the scripted work, I would argue in terms of the storytelling and the filmmaking tools, the direction, the shooting, really every aspect of it has come to a place where it's respected across the industry and major Hollywood stars A listers are pining to be a part of the nonfiction content business, and that you know, I'm the recipient of incoming calls from agents and managers of real bona fide celebrities who
want to be a part of what's happening in the nonfiction business. And that's really exciting and that opens up so many more opportunities than we could have imagined just five years ago.
I mean, you've really collected all of this storytelling and the artist storytelling at a point where we are absolutely there's more of a thirst for this type of content. You know, I can imagine if you were here in Australia, is there an Australian person that you would love to work with?
So we don't really think of it in terms of territory. We just think of like, what's the best story. And I've been pitched a couple of stories that are set in Australia or about particular Australian characters, and to us, it's is there a viable path to selling this? Is it a is it good? Is it a good story? Can we do a good job with it? Can we
be additive to the telling of that story? And so that's what's great is that sort of the borders are eroding on the types of stories that we can tell, because whether it's HBO, Max or Netflix or take your pick, all of the streamers really want to be everywhere in every territory. Incidentally, I did happen to see on TV the other night a movie called Breaker Morant, which is not known so well in the United States, but I imagine is known much better in Australia, and that is a fascinating story.
Breaker Morant, a tale of honor and injustice from the director of The Getting of Wisdom.
If these three Australians have to be sacrificed helping about a peace conference, small applies to pay. I can't imagine the Boer War being a hot topic for a documentary necessarily, but my point is every country has an amazingly comp lex rich fabric of stories and history that can be mined from for great documentaries.
I want to see Nicole Kidman documentary. It's so funny. I was watching The Glamour of Paris and her documentary and how well that was put together, and I just loved it. And then because I'm a huge Nicole Kidmen fan, I was like, oh, that'd be a good one.
You know. It's kind of a good point the celebrity documentaries, these sort of biopics, if you will, your brain does start start to go there. You start to think, like, who has an interesting story that maybe we don't know the totality of it, that would be worthy of a documentary treatment, And maybe Nicole Kidman is someone we should
really think about. You know. We did produce the Lea Remedy Scientology series and learned a fair amount about mister Tom Cruise, so maybe there is an interesting chapter of Nicole's story that we don't We're not completely to as of yet, but it does make you think about various celebrities and who might have a really good story to tell. I have found, incidentally, that not all celebrities make for
good documentaries. And what was special about Paris was precisely the conceit of you think you know everything there is to know about her. But actually you don't, and you need to watch this film in order to appreciate and realize that. And that's really exciting. When you can find that and capture that and bottle that and then deliver that to a mass audience, that's really special.
What does a day in the life of a continuous working producer executive producer look like for you? And like, how do you manage that?
Well, you know, you're I'm tired all the time. I your permanent bags under my eyes, probably grayer at this age than I should be. So that's the less glamorous side of it. It's NonStop, you know. I think working really hard is a big part of it. You know, there's virtue to that and not to be taken lightly. To make one show requires a tremendous amount of effort, and you have to put the right team together and
you have to rely and trust that team. And as you start to grow your slate and you're juggling multiple projects, you have to become a really good manager. So at a certain point, it's not just how creative can you be? Do you have a good idea, can you in a
compelling way explain that idea to others? It's also about assembling really talented artists and artisans and being able to manage that, and then hiring other people to help you manage that, because the infrastructure and the machine just you know, in success, it grows and grows. So it's a high class problem, but high class problems, I've learned, are still problems, and you have to be able to manage a large slate of shows and human beings. And the key for
us has always been quality control. So if you make twenty shows, if like eighteen of them are garbage, well it's not really worth it. Just make the two that are good. It's about making twenty shows really great and being able to deliver that consistently. Really requires a lot of stamina, a lot of patience, but a lot of teamwork. I depend and rely on lots of very, very talented colleagues.
I'm exhausted just looking at your imdbaate, Like you know, when I was doing the research for this, and I just was thinking, it's amazing. I mean, you're known for making so many different shows, and then there's some complexity and some diversity in the way in which you find different stories, and it just made me wonder what is the hook for you? You know, like what makes you want to explore different subject matter?
That's a great question, you know. The one thing if you've looked at my body of work or what our company does, there's a lot of different kinds of shows. You know, there's like a little bit of true crime. Then there's a hard hitting show about the mass shooting epidemic. But there's also hey, we're going to do a cooking show with Selena Gomez, right so you have or a
documentary feature about Paris Hilton. So I love that. I love the diversity of programming and being able to explore all these different avenues, and I think that starts with a healthy intellectual curiosity. I try to explain this to people not in the business all the time. We have to become amateur experts about every single topic that we make a show about. So I then might not known all that much about cooking prior to Selena plus Chef, but I have a much better understanding of it now
as a result of working on it. Otherwise it wouldn't be possible to make that show entertaining. You really do need to know what you're talking about, and documentaries are unscripted programming. That's a vehicle to learn something and you package it in an entertaining way. But at the end
of the day, you're imparting information to a viewer. It could be a crazy true crime caper, but whatever it is, they're learning about a true story that they theoretically didn't know about before they turned on the television, and so you have a duty of care to get that right. But I think it starts with passion and an intellectual curiosity, and I kind of I just go with my gut instinct on what excites me.
What do you think of out the documentary filmmakers. I mean, one of the last documentaries I watched in its entirety in one go was the Alan versus Farrow. When you're watching other people's documentaries, are you seeing a certain storytelling? And I mean, on that particular documentary, did you think that they had an agenda or do you think that they were just trying to gather the facts?
Well, you went right for the controversial question. You know, when I'm watching other people's work, I'm hopefully just getting swept up in this story and I'm as entertained as any other viewer would be. I'm also watching for the filmmaking and how they're constructing it and how they're putting it together, and seeing what ideas they might have thought of that I hadn't thought of, or what ideas I
thought of that maybe they borrowed from. And I think there's a lot of fun from our colleagues within the industry to sort of learn and admire each other in that way. That particular documentary, it seemed like the filmmakers had an agenda.
This is the story of two of the biggest stars in the world. The father is Woody Allen, writer, director, actor. The mother is Mia Farrow, his co star and mother of his three children.
They my family was really close. It was an amazing childhood. But no matter what you think, you know, it's just the tip of the iceberg. I mean to be honest. And to their credit, they've been in the press saying, yeah, we were really only interested in telling one side of
this story. They've said that about some of their previous work as well, and so I think if you're upfront about it, I don't necessarily begrudg if you're honest about the fact that you have an agenda and you're really out there to tell I'm telling this one side of this controversial, contentious story. Okay, that's not the approach that
I adopt. I think it's to me, it's a little bit less interesting, and I think when something is I'm not saying every story has to be balanced, but I think the other side of every story helps the viewer sort it out for themselves in a way. And so again it's not my favored approach, but the fact that they've been really upfront about the fact that they're on agenda to tell one side of the story. Okay, they're being transparent about it.
You know, you really capture women particularly well. I think when you're like myself and you're digesting a whole lot of your content in one stretch, you can see it more apparent, probably than what you might have noticed or what you set out to do. Well, why do you think that you're so good at being able to work with strong women and you know, managing to unearth their story.
Well, thank you for saying that. My mother and older sister who raised me will be thrilled to hear that, and maybe that is part of it. Maybe being raised by my mother and older sister is part of it. My parents got divorced when I was nine years old. You know, my mom had to go back out into the workforce, and my older sister would cook dinner for me, and those were my formative experiences growing up. So and
they're both amazing, complex, brilliant, wonderful women. So, you know, i'd like to think and it would be logical to assume that that's a big part of it. But I also think that we're in a moment right now in society, especially in the sort of post Me Too era, where there's a hunger for those sorts of stories and for those sorts of strong women to be out in front of those stories. Audiences are interested, women are coming forward wanting to tell those stories, and there's been an imbalance
prior to that. There's been a lot of misogyny, and there's been a reckoning about the fact that there's been a lot of misogyny. And I think that it's a wonderful time to unearth these stories and to bring them to audiences. They're as important as ever, and I do think that hopefully our work and others work will inspire those stories to keep getting told. You know, if you think of the whole sweep of human history dominated by
male centric, male driven stories. There's a lot of catching up for women to do in terms of storytelling and being featured in that sort of prominent way, and I look forward to helping correct that curve of history.
I wanted to ask you, you know, what's been the biggest learn for you starting out with storytelling and then coming to this point. Now, Oh, that is all.
That's a really great question. I think one of the things you know I've learned, other than growing a thick skin, is it's really important to be ruthless in the development of your ideas. You know, every time you think of something you know, you're oh, I'm a genius. I've just come up with this great idea. When you first come up with an idea, it's perfect, right, no one's heard
it yet, no one's poked any holes in it. It's this utopian canvas upon which you paint your perfect idea, and the more you work with it, you're like, well, that's an issue. How am I going to get around that? Oh? Well, we might not have access there. I'm not sure the archival footage really exists in the right quantity to tell this story. Oh, that contributor won't participate the guy I really need to sit in the chair to tell me that story. He died three years ago, so he's obviously
not available for the interview. As you start to develop it, you start to learn of all of its flaws, and sometimes it's not makeable. You know, One thing I learned in nonfiction is that if it's not makeable, it's actually not a good idea. Right, If it's not producible, it's not a good idea. You know, in scripted you can make up a story, and if you're a good writer and you can write a good script, okay, fine, there's
a path. But in nonfiction you have to be able to make it, especially when it comes to unscripted formats like Undercover Boss. If that format doesn't work, it's actually not a good idea for a show. So it's got to be producible. It's got to be makeable. It's got to be something you can actually pull off when you show up in the field with the cameras and the crew.
That's an important lesson, and I think you got to be really Therefore, it requires a certain ruthlessness in the development of that idea to make sure that you can really pull it off.
I have to ask, was Paris Hilton really talking with three different voices in that documentary? And I wondered when she sort of revealed that, was that something that you guys, as storytellers sort of following her, had noticed before she'd revealed that, or was that just something that she came forward with right at the start of it.
Well, I will tell you a story that I haven't really told anyone, because you've teed it up with the perfect question. When we were courting Paris, I had seen this article about her from several years ago. It sort of intrigued me, sort of a recap of her influence,
whether it was unwitting or by design. And I went down a rabbit hole of just reading a lot of press about Paris Hilton over the years, and I had this instinct that that would be a great idea for a feature documentary because I felt like we've all been obsessing about the Hiltons, and we've been talking about the Hiltons for twenty years. But if you looked really carefully, this was a few years ago. They didn't really talk
about themselves. You know, they would have their pr person say something and they'd sort of circle the wagons or
declined to comment or do damage control. But when a scandal broke, so we were talking about them, but they weren't really talking about them, And so I thought that there's an opportunity for Paris to own her own truth and talk about some of this traumatic stuff that's happened in her past that quite frankly, we obsessed over as a society, And wouldn't that be entertaining if we could get her to tell us authentically what was really going on at the time.
You're saying the documentary that the whole world thinks they know me, but they really don't.
So who is the real Paris Hilton? Well, this entire time, I have been playing a character, so the world has never really truly known who I am. And she wouldn't even take the meeting with me for a while. I sort of had to be terribly persistent just to get in the room with her, and finally got in the room with her. And Parris's natural voice is kind of
is this deep, sexy sort of baritone. When she's sort of like calm and not nervous, it's this really great, a deeper voice, and it's totally different than the baby voice. You hear, and I asked Paris really almost sort of a test, but I said, hey, Paris, if we go forward and make this project, are you going to use the baby voice or are you gonna drop that sort of veneer and just talk to us like you are right now? You could hear a pin drop in that room.
My producing partner thought I had totally ruined, like I was going to alienate Paris and I had tanked the whole project, Like how could you ask such an incendiary, controversial question. Everyone's agent and manager around the table looked nervous and like they were afraid to say anything. It was a pregnant silence seemed to have gone on forever, and then finally Paris said, you know, good question. That's
like a persona that I adopted early on. And the truth is I slip into it when I get a little bit nervous or uns or of myself, but it's not my real voice, and no, I won't be doing the whole documentary in that voice. And for me it was a risk. It was a little bit of a test balloon, like what Paris Hilton, are we going to get when we try to make this incredibly authentic film about her. You know, it takes two years, roughly speaking,
to make a documentary feature. Sometimes it takes much longer than that, but it's usually a minimum of one to two years, and so I didn't want to go down that road and do all that work and not have something authentic on the other side. And so that was just a little test balloon into Paris's credit. She totally owned it and she was real about it, and she said, no, I'm not going to do that, and this is where
it comes from. And I thought to myself, boy, we better talk about that in the film, because audiences are going to have the same question, They're going to want to know the same answer. And so that's why it became an important thing to bring out in the documentary itself.
Yeah, it really resonated with me, Like there was other truth bombs that she dropped in that documentary, but to me, that was such a really good It was like the key into that documentary that she said that at the start, and then it allowed us as a viewer to trust her and go further and go deeper. And without that key at the start, could that documentary have really have lifted the way that it did.
You know, well, you're making a really good point, because what you're saying as a viewer was the experience I had as a producer. I needed to hear that from Paris in order to trust her to kind of like, Okay, we're going to hold hands now and jump off the There wasn't a director on board at the time. It was just us in Paris. I needed to trust her in that same way that you're describing the viewer needed. I needed that before we ever started making it, and once I got that, I knew we were going to
have something. I mean, she was so gracious and magnanimous with her truth by revealing the full comprehensive nature of her experiences, and I think that comes across in the film, and it's funny that it worked the same way for the viewer, that sort of that need and that capacity to trust her as a way of then going on the rest of the journey.
For the rest of it, it's what makes you great, my friend. You know, that's what you've got to be is you've got to be in the driver's seat. I also love obsessed with American Idol, which you've worked on as well, and I wanted to ask you just as a shorter question, you know, what do you think of singing competition shows these days? Do you think that they still have a place on Telly?
I do, and I'm biased, so I'm going to own my bias. But you know, American Idol is the real deal. That really is a show about the contestants, the artists that have a particular dream, and it's a great format that allows really talented folks to come on and really share with America and the world those voices and what they want to do as musicians and recording artists. There are other singing competition shows, some of them are more about the judges, you know, than they are about the contestants.
What I love about American Idol is it's about the contestants, It's about that dream, it's about the artist journey. And I definitely think there's and will always be a place for that sort of entertainment on television, and I think the viewers have validated that.
Just let you know, we have American Idol. Knots here at my place. Here you're not allowed to talk during the performances because my best mate Ed Pitts comes round and watch it with me, and we've had thoughts in the house for anyone that spakes during an American Idol performance.
Well, I like the house rules that you have a di I'm a strong supporter of not talking during American Idol. That's those are good house rules. Would I would feel very wealthy?
Well, we need to talk about Selena. You know, how did Selena and Chef come about?
Selena and Chef came about in some ways because of COVID and the sort of stay at home orders that we were under here in the United States at that time, and Selena found herself, like the rest of us, at home a lot in their kit you know, needing to cook more than maybe they thought they would ever have to cook, and in her case, not necessarily. Selena is very, very talented at many many things, but I think it's not controversial to say that cooking isn't necessarily one of them.
It certainly wasn't in the beginning of season one. Hi, I'm Selena Gomez and I really loved team.
But I'm not the best cooked.
I've asked some of the best chefs to school meets.
I'm so excited to learn from the legend.
I'm so happy you're at home I'm at home, and we're going to see if we can make a meal together apart to the dinner. And so she found herself wanting to be better in the kitchen and wanted to gain some culinary skills so she could make better meals that were delicious or healthy or both. And it really came from that desire, and I think that was very relatable to what a lot of the rest of us were going through. You know, you can't go to a restaurant,
You're getting all your food delivered. Takeout gets old after a while, and so I think that's really where it started. We had a pre existing relationship with Selena Gomez because we had partnered on a documentary series about undocumented immigrants facing deportation. So we had been partners with her on a previous show, and we had developed a relationship and
a trust. And it was the only reason I'm underscoring that is this was the first time Selena appeared on camera in an unscripted television show, and so that was a big deal. Daunting a watershed moment, yeah, and so that was something that was really special. But I think that pre existing relationship was important in order to make her feel comfortable doing that with us.
What about those rainbow knives in that kitchen.
I mean the rainbow knives get get a lot of talk. And by the way her knife scales, I'm always nervous she's about to cut off one of her fingers. So I'm like, I'm like, pleat, I'm slow down. I hope the other chefs stop. I sometimes I want the producer to interrupt and make sure she doesn't cut off her finger.
But she does this thing, which is not good for a podcast, by the way, but she does this little thing with a hand, and you know, a couple of times other chefs say to her, I'm really nervous about the way you're cutting right now, and she says, no, no, no, it's fine, and she shows them like this little clawhand.
Because that's what you're taught is unique, this little claw, and that's how you avoid cutting off your fingers. But you got to do that though, right every kind of chef says it. We're all at the monitors thinking it, and the viewers at home are probably thinging it. But I would say, knock on wood. As long as she doesn't cut off the finger, we can survive those moments of high anxiety.
You know, what's interesting about the series as well is her ability to connect with these people through screens, you know, which I think we're getting better at doing. But you know, she never seems to get cross when the chef's stup to be a little bit controlling over her. Is that how it happened in real time? Was she that placid the whole time?
Well, she's very charming and very disarming in real life, and I think that comes across on the show. So you know, Ludo Lefev gets you know, there's a French chef here in America. He got quite animated. And sometimes certain chefs might get a little frustrated or a little impatient. But you know, Selena, she gets stressed in the kitchen. I'm not saying she's unflappable, but she's a really good sport and she wants to learn, and she's comfortable in
her own skin. You can tell from the show that like she's okay that she doesn't know all these things, and she'll be funny and self deprecating about it to the point where you're worried she's about to slice off one of her fingers. So I think that that charm comes through and I think that disarms a lot of the chefs, even when they get a little hot under the top.
I've noticed a carefully place dialogue some of Selena's I'm a big Selena Gomez fan, By the way, I should probably just full disclaimer, you know, was the Selena lyrics just kept appearing just as normal conversation. Was that on purpose?
Not necessarily? It was? I mean the songs we used, obviously, that was purposeful. But you're referring to casual dialogue. Yeah, no, I swear that's not on purpose. I mean, she might have those lyrics in her brain right because she's a massive recording superstar, so it's possible that somewhere in her subconscious and always on the tip of her tongue. But I promise you those that casual, inadvertent dialogue that may or may not sound like lyrics from her music was not intentional.
Her nana did it. At one point, her nana came in and used a full line of dialogue, which is just her being authentic. But she says this, and I'm going to edit this into the podcast so that as long as she twisted Aman, they won't come out.
Come on, man, help her out. I'm trying.
I'm trying.
Did Nana know that, I'm trying to remember the moment. Did Nana know that?
She? No, she did not, and it didn't play out that way like for the viewer. She just said it, and I was like, are these easter eggs for the diehard Gomez fans or are these people I like.
The rumor you're I want it now. I want to do it on purpose. Now. I want to put these easter eggs into the show so people like you can have some fun with you.
I was having the rose with her every time she did the.
Oh, so you need to separate four eggs, We're just going to use the rights.
And she did that a few times, which is you know, it's a common lyric. But anyway, look, last night I cooked one of the best steaks of my entire life and it was all because of Curdistone and Selena Gomez. I just need to ask you.
I was gonna say, did you do the steak sandwiches or did you just just do I did.
The whole thing without the I was so nervous after watching Selena's attempt at the Sultan Vinega Chips that I didn't go anywhere near the salt Vinea chips. But I did everything else and it just made me want to ask you, you know, what is the meal that you've watched being created that you've actually made yourself.
Oh, that's a good one. My girlfriend and I did the Nancy Silverton kind of vegetable medley the Italian party buffet, so which was just a crazy number of vegetables. And I'm a big sort of meat eater, so I wasn't. I was like a little skeptical, like then we're gonna get some burgers, or like when is the meat portion
of this meal? But honestly, it was delicious. Nancy is so talented, and that was an interesting episode where everything seemed to go wrong, and I think the sheer volume of dishes that Selena had to make in that episode was part of the stress. But that's one I remember really fondly, like we actually pulled it off. My girlfriend deserves honestly, most of the credit, maybe all of it. Maybe I just gote none of the credit now that I'm really thinking the thrill but I ate it all.
I was the caster, and I think I did an excellent job.
But you know, interestingly enough about this whole format. This format is so different to any other cooking show that you've ever seen before, and I think it is accessible for younger audiences. And younger audiences are harder to connect with these days with content. You know, they're on TikTok and they're creating their own content. But how do you feel about that? Is it harder to engage in your mind with younger audiences? And was this specifically made in a way for them?
You know, I can't say that it was specifically made for a particular demographic. You're always mindful of who you're making this show for, and so that is still true. You know, we were in this case, we were making it for HBO Max, but we were making it for HBO Max at a time where that platform was just emerging. So I'm not sure it was even possible for us to know exactly who their audience was back then, because
they were still figuring it out. We were figuring it out together, and so I can't say that we were purposely making it for a particular demo. Like you know, Look, the secret is I like to make stuff that I like to watch, and I have my own taste to rely on and hopefully that is shared by millions and millions of people, but it isn't always. I've made some shows that I've loved that have had very tiny, small audiences,
so you just kind of do your best. I think in that show, really, I think what's so special and different about it is she's receiving instruction as opposed to the expert telling the viewer what to do it, So the viewer gets to learn with the celebrity and the other kind of great thing about it, and this is sort of I don't know, necessity is the mother of invention. Because of COVID, these chefs were all cooking remotely in their own homes, and as you say, we were beaming
them into Celina's kitchen. It's something really interesting happens. Selena is by herself in the kitchen, and on a lot of other shows, when the chef is next to you and they see you struggling right to cut with a knife or to do something complicated, they have a tendency to take over, and the person learning has a tendency to step back and just watch them. But in this case,
Selena can't do that. She's got to go through all the steps, and she's got to do it in real time as the chef does it, and there was something magical about her kind of being. I mean, she has her friends and her nana and her papa, but really it's Selena Gomez alone having to figure it out. And that was a magical thing that made the whole experience so compelling and entertaining that you know, probably wouldn't have happened if we didn't have to abide by some of
these COVID restrictions. And so I think that's like a wonderful byproduct of having to be creative within the constraints of how we had to produce that show.
Well, before I ask you the last question, I just want to ask you, for audiences that are listening to this podcast right now, why do you think people should watch this show?
Oh? Well, it's just really entertaining, honestly. I mean, I do think that you can learn how to make some of these dishes. I mean, you can replay the episodes almost as a cook a long video and follow all the steps and pull down all the recipes and definitely
learn how to cook. But I think there's something really escapist about watching Selena and her friends fumble their way through the kitchen while you know, very gracious but sometimes slightly frustrated and entertaining expert chef right on the other side tries to teach her how to do it all. And there's something very fun and very escapist and honestly, it's just cool to get to hang out with Selena
Gomez in her actual kitchen. I mean, that's the other thing, you know, not to before we wrap this up, not to gloss over this, but there's something really intimate about being in her home, I know, in her actual kitchen where she makes your food. And I think that ability to eavesdrop, you know, is to be in a room that you would normally never get to be in as
a viewer. That's really cool. That's lightning in a bottle, and that really speaks to how wonderful and inviting Selena is as a person, not to mention as the star of this cooking show.
It's amazing. It's actually quite addictive. So for my two cents with that is for people watching it, watch the first episode, because I guarantee audiences will go down the rabbit hole and keep watching them and it becomes addictive and you'll find yourself being Selena Gomez and who doesn't
want to be Selena Gomez. My last question I have for you is the question I ask all of my guests, what is an amazing story from behind the scene that we as an audience would appreciate that we might not have got to see.
I need a documentary feature called Operation Odessa, And in that film, we were attempting to locate this huge sort of narco drug trafficker who was on the run from Interpol, was wanted by the Feds here in the United States, and no one could find him. We were warned not to go and look for him. We were warned that if we did, we wouldn't find him, so don't even bother. But he was an important element to the story. He was one of the sort of the three main characters
of this particular tale. And our director and our crew, they were in Europe shooting part of the documentary and the director got a phone call on his cell phone, didn't recognize the number. He picks up the phone and the guy on the line said, you've talked to all the waiters. Now it's time for you to come meet
the chef. So it was that guy that we were looking for that is there was literally an internationally wanted fugitive from the law and and he said, come to South Africa, come to Johannesburg tomorrow and we can have a coffee and we could talk about whether I will participate in this documentary. And so the director called us and said, hey, it's going to cost like tens of thousands of dollars to leave Europe flight to starth Africa just for a coffee, just to understand and maybe persuade
this guy to participate. But once he told us the whole waiter come now meet the chef story, we were sort of all we were like, you gotta do it. You got to go for it. It's worth the risks, it's worth the thirty grand And sure enough he becomes a huge and a fascinating and amazing character in our documentary Operation Odessa. So you can if you watch that, you'll know who we're talking about when it gets to that point.
That's a good one. And I just want to say that I got an email asking whether or not I was interested in doing this interview today and I wrote back within about one second yes, because I am absolutely fascinated by your work. I have been in your audience for so long, so I wait to say what more shows you work on and what stories you want to earth and thank you for being such a great storyteller and keep doing it.
Ben, Thank you so much. It's incredibly kind of you, and I'm flattered and humbled and I really appreciate the kind words, and I just want to say it's not just me. I have lots of lots of talented colleagues and a producing partner and network partners who all contribute to the wonderful production of these shows and in the case of Selena Plus yet incredibly indebted to our wonderful partners at HBO Max, and I would be remiss if I didn't say that. But thank you so much for the kind of list.
Well, hopefully HBO Max hasn't crashed today with the Friends Reunion being on Binge and HBO Max. I know that's so cool that the whole thing just crashes today with half the world tuning into that. But I just want to say, thanks.
Ben, are awesome. I've really enjoyed this and I really appreciate it, and you are way too kind, But thank you so much.