Tory Hess - From Second Life to Wilderness Commune

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To you never If you think that one person has all the answers, don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two fantasizers who've actually experienced it.

I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

Today our guest is Tory, former member of a small rural group in upstate New York that she calls crazy Land. She's gonna tell us about how she always loved reading and fantasy growing up, never went to public school, and didn't connect easily with folks in real life when she was young, and how she found her human connection in the online community of the game Second Life, where she could act out her dream of having a family of her own until it began to consume her life.

She'll tell us how some of the friends she made on there eventually convinced her that she was spending too much time on the game and that she should come live with them in upstate New York.

In Crazyland.

We'll talk about how thirteen people were living in one trailer with extremely uncomfortable living conditions like one toilet for all those people, but how it also fulfilled her desire for a family to take care of.

At least at first.

We'll get into who the leader of Ron was, the financial and sexual abuse that he was committing, how he isolated her from her parents, and how she finally got out. Torri's story is amazing, she is. It's such a modern tale of how one can end up in a cult. It makes it super interesting for me personally, hopefully for y'all too. Before we jump in, what is your culture thing of the week.

Well, I've been watching the HBO docuseries Breath of Fire, which is about Kundalini yoga.

I'm not sure if you've seen it yet. Heavier you look a little like you not? Okay? Great?

So essentially it's about this woman whose name was Katie, but she became Gurujhaga and her rise to the top of Kundalini and Los Angeles and the world. And it hit super close to home because I lived with one of my really good friends who was taking her classes all over the time, who started studying Kundalini. A lot of the people I was hanging out with or some of the authors I liked, were getting certified to teach it, and I felt really lazy for not wanting to do it.

Cadalini yoga is like so hard.

You would sit for an hour and a half and these yoga classes that you know would have cool celebrities and stuff like that, and just have your hands above your head for the whole class.

I can barely lift a hand.

In general, and so I would be like, I don't want to do these classes. I don't really like it. But I always had this sense in the back of my head. I was like, well, because you're too lazy to do it. But now as it is exposed for the cult that it is, I'm like, damn, it sometimes comes in handy to not be an overachiever.

So true, because.

This shit got really crazy, it got really abusive. Spoiler alert, she is the Guru is dead. It's such a mess and it's heartbreaking, and I knew some of the people in the doc, and it just it's really unnerving because I was essentially kind of in it.

I thought it was.

Real and there is something about Kundlim like I believe in Chakras, So it was something that I was very close to and it's kind of freaking me out. The doc is really good and I recommend everybody watch it.

I will watch it. I'm so behind on all the docks. I really want to watch the Stanford prison experiment one too, which you know we kind of already I think have talked about on this podcast that that was debunked a bit, and it was the researcher was kind of misleading people as to what actually happened there. But I've not watched it yet, so I want to see all the tea and get all the details. But I have nothing to say about it because I haven't seen it yet.

Oh watch it. What about you?

What's the cultiest thing that happened to you this week?

Living in America?

Can you believe in America.

The election happened? Obviously, everyone's going to have really strong

To stay connected on topics that there's common ground on, and then you know, ask little questions here and there so you can understand where they're coming from. But if the relationship isn't hurting you, then try to keep it alive, right.

Yeah, Yeah, obviously it's different if somebody is verbally abusing you or like just crediting your existence in some way, but otherwise my understanding of the world. People might disagree, but is that everyone whose views we think are abhorrent from their perspective, given their experience, is given the information they've exposed to, makes sense to them as being reasonable. And most people, some people obviously we know are are

I couldn't agree more. Thanksgivings coming up. I know a lot of us are going home. So God's speed to all of us on every level of just you know, making it through and keeping connections alive despite our differences, because it's important.

Indeed, should we get to the interview.

Absolutely, let's talk to Tory.

Welcome Tori to trust me. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you for having me.

We have so many questions for you. It's such a unique story. Okay, So first, can you just tell us what your childhood was like and what kind of your understanding of community and religion and such was.

Sure I grew up in evangelical Christian home and everything. So community was definitely surrounded by church, and my church at that time was very small, so it was very inward us focused, not outward. So a lot of my childhood was friends from church. Homeschooled as well then like around third grade, much of a private Christian school, so church

What type of books were you reading, because for me, it was like Sweet Valley High.

Babysitters Club. Were you were you also there?

I was going to say Harry Potter.

I was. I'm a huge Harry Potter fan. Yeah, powder fan still for the day, okay Potter, Sweet Dot High of course, more Angles, wid Yeah, everything, It'sycopleedia Brown, the Treehouse Club.

The box Car Kids, the box Car Children.

Thank you.

Okay, now we're just naming every book.

Well, I really relate to that, and it set up some of your story later. So yeah, okay, yeah, you're like kind of living in your hat a little bit through some books.

What era was this, Like, what year did you graduate?

I graduated two thousand and nine. So I also grew up in late nineties early two thousands where the Internet was coming live. So because it was hard for me to relate face to face, the computer set up a lot of my relationships, right, like chat rooms, AOL and Semessenger for those. Yeah, you don't know that. Like grew up with that looking for my people because I felt like I have my people here in real life.

Oh this is okay. I'm so glad you're here talking to us, because this is such a particular type of isolation that I feel like we don't really get to hear about that much, but it's so so, so common, and I relate to it a lot. Like I was homeschooled for part of high school as well. I graduated from homeschool, and I spent all of my hours on the internet, all of them.

I know you both had wild MySpace page.

Oh yeah, that's all I'm saying. Oh yeah, you were very glary.

Yeah your signature, that's all I'm going to say.

If I was mad at you. You're not my top eight friend.

Yes, yes, Oh.

My god, that is definitely so. How old were you I guess when you discovered Second life? And how did you discover second life?

So before I get into second life, I always also did online role playing through Zanga, the online journal blog. So I created these narratives for many different characters I would get a plot line from, like the Harry Potter series. I create a character to fit into the Harry Potter series. So really creating this fantasy mind setting that up in my head, continue that well into high school, early college change.

Okay. I played Second Life like a couple of times and I was like, oh. I was like, there's no way I can keep playing this because this will destroy my entire life.

Can you guys give me some I have not yet been on Second Life. I might join it now after this conversation, but.

Like, careful, yeah, I can sweep you in.

What's the draw?

Like you get to live the life that you're not living in your every whole life. Okay, So are the people you're interacting with? Are they real people or are they characters?

And both?

The real people behind this are these avatars. Some are very old, some are very young. The draw like the draw for me ever since I can remember, And I don't know if this was because my evangelical Christian background. What you're supposed to do? I'm doing air quotes for those who can't see or because this was my DNA. But I always wanted to be married, always wanted to have kids, always wanted to be a stay at home mom.

I had family air quotes again.

That were calling me mom, I have a husband. I was able to be a DJ on this game. I was a vampire on this game. Like everything I could do in this in this second life, I couldn't do my real world, and I just lived my full life revolving around the computer. Wow, so work came home right straight on a computer.

Yeah, it's it's like having an alter ego almost track. Yeah you think, yeah, you think I'm like a normal girl. Actually I'm a vampire. I have twenty children, and I am awesome.

Yeah yeah, I mean, I just want to hear a little bit more about that, like second life lifestyle, because I'm sure there will be plenty of people who've never played. Like how much time were you spending on there? And how much time is like your digital husband spending on there, Like how much actual interaction is happening?

Very much like every moment I was not working, I was not with the few face and face friends I had and family, it was all spent on this computer.

Wow.

He my second life husband and I were actually talking outside of it. So since we were all about the game, we would be calling each other. We were playing to meet each other each other in real life like, so it was an extension of this game. And these people I met on their air quote again met they Some of them had my phone number. I was calling them. There were people from all the way over on the

And what were you doing for work at that time.

I'm a medical assistant, so I was working at a primary care office, and so I was doing the real life thing making the money, but I woul kind of wait to get home to get back on my computer, back to my people.

Wow, I mean it makes so much sense. There have been a number of people in my life who've had a very similar lifestyle for a while, and fortunately it's eventually we're like, Okay, this is taking too much of my time. Correct. It's crazy how how seductive it is, because you would think you would think, like, well, it's just a game that's not your real life, so why would it be addictive like that? But it is, so it really is.

Especially for that core belief I had that I'm not enough. I am behind this computer. Who I am in real life is not enough. I felt like an outcast. I didn't fit in. I wasn't comfortable in my own skin at all, to be the nerd, the huge fantasy person, the person who is fearly into Harry Potter, all of that, I didn't feel like to be that because I wasn't into athletics. I was a musical Like the tangible things I thought were good in the world, the tangible gifts

It makes so much sense. And I have to mention that my friends and I would go on there because you can have a sexual life somewhat on Second Life as well, and for you know, like a little former Mormon girl, I was like, I can do what.

Yep much So yeah, what does what do you mean?

Lowo?

How old are you? I don't know this, I was probably nineteen or something.

Wow.

So like in theory, like this is a great opportunity for all kinds of people who can't connect us easily in real life or for whatever reason, just have this hobby to like act out some of their fantasies.

And act out disabilities.

There's nothing inherently wrong with spending a lot of time on a game, but you know, it's just maybe if it becomes consuming and diminishes your quality of life outside of the game, perhaps, although this will be a larger conversation we'll see as AI like as virtual reality becomes more prevalent, Like, we'll see how that evolves. So how did you finally decide like, Okay, I got to get off this game.

It's actually the people I ended up moving in with up to State, New York towards the end of my time on They're they're like, well, if you are super addicted to this game, you should not be on here. You need to take a break. This is really eating up all your time, it's eating up all your money. You need to get out.

The other people on the game are telling you this, whoa.

And do you have to pay for like per hour on?

Or it's like you buy food in the game or what what are you we're paying?

Like, if you want good clothes, if you want your avatar to look amazing, you got to put some money into it.

Got it? Okay? Okay.

So the other people playing the game with you are like, you're playing this game too much.

Okay, Okay, that's a little wake up call.

I see where you're where you're at Okay.

And these are people you trusted already and had a relationship with on there right.

Yes, I was starting to get to know them. I was starting we were having conversations of like, hey, let's meet outside of second life, let's meet face to face and everything. So we were starting to build that relationship outside a second life. And when it was immersing there, I trusted. I was like, oh you like me? I trust you, Like there is that false sense of intimacy behind me that I was like, Oh, okay, even though I've never met you, I don't know, I know you

Why not?

Yeah, and they're offering you a different side quest, so to speak, come meet us in person.

Exactly exactly were those two things in the same breath. Was it like, hey, you, you spent so much time on there, why don't you get off and come to this place with us? Yeah?

It was.

They're so smart recruiting tegt Yeah yeah.

So I didn't help with them right away. The interesting fans, I can be very all of them, very black and white. So when I got off to this game, I was like culture getting rid of everyone, And it wasn't until like I was kind of creeping, like watching them from the sidelines to see what they're doing. But it wasn't until about a year or so later that they're like, Hey, we haven't talked to you forever. What I'm going to

I got to say, it's kind of brilliant going to games like Second Life to find people to recruit, because you're going to you're probably more likely to find an isolated or lonely population on their people who are in search of community and maybe haven't had as much of it in person and would be maybe excited at the opportunity to have that in person.

Exactly.

Yeah, those little fuckers.

Yea, yeah, and yeah, yeah, you can be surrounded by people, I mean, you were one of seven, but they're not satisfying relationships and so they know, you know, hey, people on Second Life might want to join us in real life.

Yep, yep.

Okay, when they started reaching back out, what made you decide? Hey, this place they're describing sounds like worth going to.

There was a guy involved and the kid. Yep, yep, there's a guy there. I started talking to and because I was craving a relationship and he had a daughter, Boom, my instant fantasy come true, right, fying sealed delivered. So when I traveled up there Labor Day weekend twenty sixteen and I saw him with this little girls, I was like, oh my gosh, this is it. This is where I need to be. I'm done. These are like my relationship, here's my family. I've been dying to have.

Find me up and you like a black mirror Hallmark movie.

Yes, yes, okay, what were you about to say, Lilo? Sorry, you knew them before you went, or you met them once you went.

I knew them before and when I reconnected with them, we started doing zoom call and that zoom skype calls. Zoom wasn't done, that skiped calls, faith timed, We were doing all that things. I started talking to them like every minute, every day when I was off work. Basically what I did in second life. Just now in real life, they started becoming the people. They started becoming the ones I filtered everything through.

Wow, how did they market this community that you now called Crazyland? How did they present this place to you?

We're all misfits too, We're all people who get it. We were outcasts in our family. We didn't sit in anywhere. We are just like you, and we all build our small community, this community together. We're a family that was very strong in there. That's the buzzword. We're a family. It might not be blood family, but we will be stronger than your blood family. We will care more for you than your blood family ever.

We will my God, sign me up. If I'm in your position, yep, one, why would I not go?

And they were like, you're you're not this because growing up also, I've always wanted to learn things like guys do, Like I want to know how to change the oil in a car. I want to know how to use carpentry tools, like I want to do that get my hands dirty. But no one ever taught me. And they're like, oh, we got you. We'll teach you how to do these tangible things that you won't have any guy. You don't need to rely on any guy, you'll be a strong and ended woman. Yeah.

Where was it? Where was crazy Land?

So this place was in upstate New York, about an hour north northeast something north of Albany. It's in just below the outer on the mountains, so you feel like up this mountain and it's ran between Glotterusgoe and Kroga Lake in it does gorgeous. New York State itself is gorgeous. I kind of get over driving back and forth seeing the fall foliage. I was there during the winter seeing the snow cap like mountains in the distant, gorgeous, gorgeous place.

And just to clarify something you mentioned in your conversation earlier as well, this was not Nexium, despite it being your Albany totally unrelated.

Not xim though. It's interesting because I was there at the same time Nexium was starting to be blown up. Oh it was in When I heard that on was like, oh my gosh, and I am convinced. The head guy of my group, because he lived in Renseleer, where Keith Vanieri is from, was like, I would not be surprised if he knew Keith or read some information about him, had some like somehow because there was very similar things. You would say, can.

That is so interesting because my my cult leader growing up, and Keith Ranieri also like would like observe each other because they knew about each other. It's so they like really do model. They like watch each other and like model their own ship after the other person, which is so fucking weird.

Yeah, it's terrible. Yeah, yeah. Watching the Bow was like, oh wait, what wow?

Interesting? Can you tell us what was actually happening there? Like physically, what were they doing on the property? Was a business?

Right, looked like too and it was this guy.

It was awful. So but even though I knew it was awful, I could see it. I want the audience to know. I was so captivated by having this family, having this guy and this kid, so the awful crap in the background. I was like, I can kind of make do with this because I have my family. That that was the big draw at that time. So at one point they are there thirteen of us living in a single wide trailer.

Whoa, yeah, how it happened.

It was insane, But that's why we call it crazy Land. Thank you mom.

Wow.

Towards the end, the head guy got a camper and some people were living in the camper and we also had about it seven kids from me and just a newborn, all the way up to seven living there too. Yeah, I see you all is fair. Yeah, so you're like family. Yeah, so it felt like it was a commune. It really was a little commune on painted plywood floors and walls. The bathrooms could only the toys might be flushed once a day, so very poor living conditions.

Yeah.

So one toilet for thirteen people that can only be flushed one time per day, I.

Like physically can't have you guys aren't pooping like how.

They There was, there was, and there will be times. I'm like, all right, I guess I'm going outside. I'm not going in that thing.

I was gonna say that at that point I would rather just do that. That's crazy pretty much.

Yea.

And the second system hadn't been pumped like two years or something like that, with the wanting the run, yeah, the running rope water, this is where the layers come.

This is yeah yeah wow.

But at the same time, I'm I'm with you, like you got the man you got the kid. I see, it's kind of like camping and there's l i'n't like camping, and I'm codependent.

So I can fix everything.

I have the money.

What we can change this. Sign me up. I can rescue all these people. I have the answers. We can change all of this. But we the running water, like we couldn't drink the water or anything like that. We had to actually go to like a stream to get actually water we could drink with and everything to cook with during the winters. We had. They called it the dragon. I'm doing air worlds. This is this huge like woodstove type thing that at times like everyone, I want people

What was kind of the reasoning of we need to be on assistance because we're so busy.

Our draw is the government owes us. We have worked so hard, we have this hard, crappy life. They owe us.

Yeah, I mean listen, get I get the logic. Yeah, yeah, A lot of people I know would probably feel the same way. But didn't you mention that there was some kind of machinery.

Yes, so they had they called they said they had a quote unquote landscaping snow plowing company. They really didn't. That was their way to get a little bit of money here and there when we were really like when the snap ran out, when everything ran out, we needed this money or when my money he ran out. That's the little income they had here and there to get

As Yeah, this is wild. So how many adults actually lived there at that time?

About thirteen of us? Six seven?

And can you tell us who the man will call Ron was?

Yes? Yes, so he and his wife all call her Nilly no one. Ever, they referred to everyone as either brother's sister or a daughter son, and only one child there was actually blood related. So when you came into this family and they set up the premise of everyone who came there, like I said the war was an outcast, they're like, oh the family, your family kicked you out, you don't have a place to go. Come here, we'll give you a place to stay, which, in and of

Oh weird, Yeah, okay, what do you think the reason for that distinction was.

That the like I said, the budget's word was the family, we are now your family, We are now the people you refer to that we are better than that.

And but here partner being his son, your boyfriend being his son, was that? So he was because he was needing to be below him, do you think versus his brother so.

Below him because he was there quite a few years before me and Jeremy. He's a sweetheart, but he was also a bit on the slower side, so he was taken advantage of in that way. And he was also very hard working and everything. And he had known Ron all his years, so he was kind of like that dad figure to him. Okay, and that's where the sun came along. But when I came along, it's like, oh, no, you're like my sister. I'm amaw you do. You're like

Yeah, yikes.

Were all of the people in this community were they also playing the game at some point and did any those relationships reflect what the relationships have been in the game.

Yeah, they were all playing the game, and a lot of the girls that were there were basically darters.

Yeahs and air quotes, got.

You yeah, daughter and air quotes yeah.

On the game they were daughters.

They were daughters. They were on hos of air quotes, darters. Everyone eventually had avatar in this game. The guys eventually like feeded out. They're like, we don't want we actually want to go out and do real life things. And when I say quote air quotes again real life, it's let's tinker around on the dump truck. Let's use this bacco to say we're doing stuff around the house, but we're really not. So everyone eventually had an avatar in this game.

Was there just one computer? I mean, I'm just like, how was their internet if there wasn't even Yeah.

Before I came along, I'm not sure where the money came in. I had my suspicions of who was a cash cow before me, But when I came in, I was. I had the role of the cash cow. I had the cash, I have the means. But when you were walking to the trailer, there was like a sixty and flat screen TV. So yeah, so they very much prided their things. There were two computers, one was Nelly's computer that that was hers. But then there was this other

New laptop, but not a toilet that you can flash more than exactly wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Second life was more important than first life.

Stuck exactly exactly.

Dad, Ron and Ron used second line too.

Yeah, he did when I was on there, use it wholeheartedly. But when I left, he didn't feel the need to anymore. And he was the one who reached out to me.

Oh I was yes.

Yeah, So Ron's kind of like going on here searching for people who have motivation, real jobs, caring and bringing them to this world.

I want to put it past them.

Yeah, but once you were there, you were not working anymore.

I told everyone back here in Pennsylvania that I was. I was part time because when I was planning to move up there, I was looking for a job. I was trying. I was trying to find that job, and there actually was a part time job around the town I was living in. I was going to be living in up there, and so I used that to my advantage, like, oh, I can say this is my job. I can say this is where I'm getting So my mom believed it,

This is so wrong. Were any of the other adults recruited from Second Life to come or was it just you? Just me, okay, okay, I've just never heard of this. I've just never heard. I mean, it must happen all the time, I've just never heard of it. It's wild.

I'm surprised they didn't keep you working to keep your more money flowing. But I also realized that they probably don't want you speaking to other people outside of the group exactly.

Like when I visited there September twenty sixteen, and I was planning to move at the beginning of the year in twenty seventeen. But going back and forth, I was there when was every weekend, driving from PA all the way up there every weekend. It was my escape from reality.

My mom.

There's like two parts of his story. It's my part, my mom's part. My mom's amazing. She was fighting for me so hard down here in PI. Love my mom so much that when she saw I left my apartment, she like broke down and started screaming and wailing in my apartment when she saw it. Just yeah, yeah, Mom was great. But they came up there, and I was trying so hard to get them on board with this, but we're like, we're not having it. That's a shit.

So that's some real isolating tactics trick. I'm surprised he let them come, But it also makes sense to me because it was so early. I feel like typically it takes time to truly convince someone to be fully isolated. From their loved ones, and if it was only two weeks and he wouldn't have earned that yet.

Yes, I didn't make trips back down to during my time up there, like for Christmas. My grandfather died during the time that I was up there, and he was constantly messaging me like he I was on his radar that He's like, okay, I know that she comes. She's very knowledgeable, like she I'm not fully at that time fully streak smart smart, but because I had therapy, I had years therapy before this, It's like she knows, she is very easily her My brain is bleaking.

Critical thinking thinking.

Would eventually come back, and he did not want that to so he was constantly like, we missed you up here. It's not the same without you here, lost without you here. Jeremy's lost without you here. You're a huge part of this family. We need you back, Like anytime I was away, constantly messaging me, make how much it's still attached.

How much older than you was he.

Probably between ten and fifteen years. He was late thirties at the time I was up there, got you forties.

So there's an authority dynamic between you two. I feel like we were just talking about this with our guest who was on one tree Hill. Why am I blanking on her name? Meg? And what is her name?

Book?

It was amazing, right, yeah, so much so yeah, so good. But it just that same thing of like when she left and she was away, they're just constantly trying to talk to her, keeping her brain in the group at all times, because God forbid she would start questioning or thinking critically.

You know, yes, yeah, yeah, I related that.

I was gonna say.

The story reminds me besides the fact that they were using her as keep working, don't do Broadway, keep on these like shows that pay more money, money, money, money, money, So what was like their what was their ultimate want from you? Like, what was their purpose with you?

It was that money, Yeah, and to like do up the house better, do a little bit things better. But they didn't want me to go out and get a job because they didn't want me to leave. So once I also when my bank account was running low, I got a credit card and he was the co signer on it. So that was the other thing too, that we could use up all this credit card line and everything. By it, I was racking up the debt. So even

Oh god, which just sigh. Yeah, why are they all the same? I know, I want to know a little bit more about your understanding now of Ron's psychology. I mean, it sounds like he had everybody pretty tightly controlled. Was the control part of the appeal for him? Or was it all of the appeal for him? You think being able to control people?

I think it was all the appeal. Yeah, having people to do various little things. He had Nelly, who was a quote unquote wife taking care of the house, even though there was a lot of discontentment in their marriage. He had the air quotes again, family. He wanted. He had someone to do the work for him. That was Jeremy. He was the one doing like he would be up

Got you would he be staying up that late playing the game?

No, he wasn't playing the game. He was just on TV. God.

Yeah, so he's just a lazy little fucker who just wants to be a prince and have everyone do everything for him.

Yep.

And what were you Did you feel like in love with Jeremy at this time or like.

What I was? I was very much in love, which is why when I my critical thinking started kicking in, I didn't want to come running back with the tail between my legs. I had so much pride. My pride really got into the way that I was like, I love him and these kids, the kids that were there. If there wasn't these kids there, I pretty much probably

Did you try to find that happy medium?

I did? I love and apartments. I started looking for jobs and he was not happy. He would say, he was like, oh, yeah, you're not happy. You need to go on work. You need to do some work. Who knows when we'll get our landscaped, be company up in the spring or whatever. Yeah, go out and find a part of time job. But when I would be like, oh, look at this place, He's like, Oh, I don't know about the place for you guys. I don't know if the daughter she would really like that there?

You know, like, yeah, whose kids were they other than Jeremy's kid? Who did they belong to?

And this is why I say, is that ongoing Jerry's Springer episode. These kids were two of the girls there had had kids one because the girl, I'm just gonna gonna say, they were both Jeremy's exes living in this place. He brought them in and they stayed.

Oh shit, yeah, okay, Yeah, that's fun for you.

Ongoing Jerry Springer episode. And they are also people who they're not fully with it. There are more on the slower side. Again, you to manipulate them and what happened. So they very much trusted me to act like a parental role to these kids. So those two girls had two kids of their own there, and then we brought in another fam Another girl had three kids there too, So we were bringing in people as we as I was living there.

Yeah, whoa, who is the new one? Who was the new woman?

She was just somebody who knew one of the girls in the group, okay, And she's like, I need a place to stay. I'm getting kicked out. I can't let my kids starve and go cold, and we're like.

Yeah, come on in, none of you guys better go to the bathroom.

Yeah. It was insane. Yeah, basically going outside during the winter to was like yeah.

Oh my god, Yeah, I have to know what the sleeping arrangements were, because how I cannot I still can't process how you all would fit in that.

It was impressive. I will say this. Ron was a really smart dude. He knew his shit, he knew he knew, and he was able to look at a space and be like, how can we make people fit in there? So they added on a little room for me and Jeremy. There were three rooms. There was a three rooms along the hallway and like the masterroom air quoting that in

Wow yeah yeah.

And then there's a third room in the back that a couple slept there, and then Nally slept in the back while Ron slept in the living room most of the time. Okay, and when people came along with the new girl came along with her kids, that's when the camper came along, got you and went to gotcha?

Yeah, okay, okay, And I have to ask this question because this is just what inevitably comes up with these situations. Was Ron sexually abusing anybody?

Yes? I found out later, Yes, he didn't me for there was definitely if it wasn't for Jeremy, he definitely would have. He definitely would have gaus. Looking back, there were sexual conversations between him and I. That's why I said he didn't treat me like it's just cure because of the conversation. But he was actually abusing.

To the girls there. Yeah, the adult girl's adults, and.

I fully I fully believe the kids too. I cannot prove it. But with things, and I can't get too much into this because there's a trial going on with my ex regarding some stuff. I would not be surprised, like just looking back kindstinks always twenty twenty that I'm like, he has to be too, he has to be. How can he not be?

Yeah, oh my gosh, what a nightmare.

Yeah, very, this is awful.

Very, I'm very sorry, which is why those kids I felt, even though I wasn't able to protect them. There's all this crap going on that I didn't know until later. I felt like I had to protect them. I was the most sane of this insane place. Yeah, want to get some structure to these kids.

That in stig makes so much sense to me, And yeah, it is such a useful tool on his part, which is not like, yeah, anyone who comes in and see these kids in this situation is going to be like, well, fuck, now I have to take care of these kids. Now I have to make sure that these kids are safe.

Like it's just playing on your instincts and yeah, making you take care of them. I'm wondering how, like, how did your thought process begin to change when you're in the deepest part of it, Like, how are you reconciling? Yeah, how are you reconciling what's happening?

It was very much pride, very prideful, because deep deep down, I mean, there's no when you go to use a bathroom full of poop, you that's it. That's the like visual like, Okay, this is really no pun intended crappy situation, like, there's no But I was just like, okay, how I

Yeah.

Yeah, probably, like not wanting the people who had been like this is kind of weird to be right.

Yeah, it sounds to me like, you know, you were describing earlier how you want to learn how to do the things that the men can do, and it sounds like you have this really like figure it out, can do attitude, which.

Oh, if I had a cult, you'd be the first person I would have joint. And you're like, you know, hard working, smart, Like it sounds like your hands were really getting dirty, but you were enjoying it.

Yeah, I mean I was learning things that like I was learning carpentry, skilled I wrote a snowmobile, I wrote, I learned how to drive a bacco. We were tearing down trailers and everything. So I was doing stuff that i've around here were in the county I live, There's no way I could get that. So I was learning useful tools. I'm like, oh, this is so cool. I can do this. It was giving me the strength to go, I can do this. I'm not a helpless woman. I can use a drill. Now I write all this, I

So did that kind of make you feel as though like now your first life was where the real magic and like stuff was and you didn't need the second life anymore because your first life was like meeting your needs.

Yeah, very much, so very much. So I did not go on that game at all when I was up there, So yeah, they were all on it. I was like, I'm going to be outside with the boys, show me how to use the oil, like I was.

Doing all that. So how long were you did You actually live there for a year and a half And you know, your parents obviously were suspicious in the beginning, and that came early on. What about like a little bit further in like six months a year in like what was your relationship with them? Like I so I.

Actually cut when I When was it that I cut them off? I did eventually cut them off, very much like I would say Happy Birthday to my mom, I would say Happy Mother's Day, like do the nice daughter stuff. But there was definitely I did not want to hear it. My head was in the sand, like Ostrich, I'm like, nope, didn't leave me alone. I'm doing what I'm doing and everything. And they I did not know this at the time, but they were doing investigators on their side just to

I was gonna say, yeah.

Build that relationship my mom, my dear amazing mom. She's one who can kind of have no filter and when it comes to me, she's like, I'm not going to lie to you, like I'm not going to hold back. This is grap I just got to get it out. Then you do with it. What you will. So my mom was definitely the powerhouse of like we like she was praying, she was like this is awful. We need to get you out of this, and everything, well, my

How did when did it start to collapse?

So I came down for my birthday November twenty seventeen and actually today's my birthday, Actually today's my birthday birthday, and my dad took me off to to eat. I forget what was lunch for dinner, and we were talking doing the nice to be things, and he goes and my family knows, calls me Victoria. So he's like, Victoria, here's what I want you to do. I just want you to start asking questions and observe. That's all.

I want you to smart, smart to start asking questions and observe.

Yep, ask me. And at that time there were things slowly I was like, wait a minut, does that add up? Does that add up? And that was like the affirmation I needed to go, Okay, maybe I should. Dad is my and my dad is one who when he's very quiet, like everyone just hushed because he has the wealth of knowledge. He has so much wisdom. It's like, okay, dad, Like mom's always saying this, and of course I do like my mom, like you know, it's a fair and s now.

Was like Ron would start to listen to someone knew who had her outd yep. Oh interesting, yep.

And I was like, hmm hmm, this isn't because I think he was having sexual relations with her.

Mm yeah, what were some of the other things, Like prior to your dad saying that, were there moments where you'd be like, huh, that doesn't seem like it's true, or like did anything come up for you like that?

He is very good at the fantasy world do He would say all these things about his family where he's like, I have this aunt who's in the circus, and at that time I was making I was taking plastic bags and making actual like toape bags out of them. It's called porning, like reuse and recycle. It's very cool. So anyone who likes croucheting look it up. It's very helpful. And he's like, I can get all these plastic bags so you can make all these toads and sell them.

No, never moved back when in the circus bringing me the plastic bags, right, Like.

Do you have a brother in the mafia? Like how many brothers do you have?

Oh?

I only have one brother? Oh, and I'm thinking about I was told you had like five oh, things like that. Little things like that.

I was like, hmm, and how would your brain explain them away?

Would it just be like, well, if you have a brother in the mafia, of course they're not going to like say it or.

Stuff like that.

Yeah.

Yeah, just was like, Okay, I'm not going to question that. I don't want to die, right, I don't want to do that. Or like he was like, we're in the Freemasons, and I don't know that much about the Freemasons, right, I was like, Okay, it's that's a secret group. I don't want to like, I don't want people come out of the woods and attack me.

Right of course he's saying, yeah, of course he's saying things that have some like an air of secrecy around them. So exactly plausible.

Yeah, exactly.

Did he present himself as like a some kind of special authority of some kind on life or spiritually or anything like that.

It was he was spiritually No, because his birthday was on October thirty first, so he always said he was part of the devil. He was like the double spawn. Okay, lovely, more like I know so much about history and everything, and I have all this like like I said, it's survivalists. I have all these things that help you survive in the world that people cast decide that people don't know. How good at a mechanic I am, at a landscaper I am. I have all these tricks that can help

Was there this sense of like an impending apocalypse or was there a prepper element to all of it.

There wasn't a prepper element, they didn't have the money, but it was definitely like we are going to protect our own though, like I'm going to teach you guys how to survive that if, like it wasn't preppy, but if something were to happen, you know how or if if you ever do leave but don't you can survive out there. Right, It's a fun way to survive. And we're and one of the big things that we're going to take this off the grid and we're going to live on our own where no one can touch.

This type of thing. Right, that would get me. I've talked about this before, but my boyfriend and I we like started getting into like learning how to like we suck at it. We don't we would not survive currently, but we took one class and like, oh, this is maybe gonna be our personalities now. Like I totally understand the appeal of that also as someone who's like I want to do what we always do, you know, yeah.

And like the government, who was like the governments into everything, so we need to avoid the government, even.

Though we're saying less and you're getting paid from the gun.

Yeah right, right, that's one of I remember after the time my dad asked told me to do that. That was one of things I came back. I was like, wait, what this doesn't make We're going and then the government isn't everything, but yeah, we're going to take money for okay, make it make sense.

It doesn't right right right?

Wow, So you're in deep you like you now are caring for these people like they are your family, and in some ways the children are what's kind of the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Honestly, it was when that the new girl came in and just how she was treating these kids and there was so much chaos going on and everything, and that like the whole structure was starting to shift, and once again I felt like I don't fit in here, and I'm trying to voice these things and he's not listening, Like I don't feel safe anymore, and I don't see

And what did that look like.

I wouldn't be like an apartment, my own job, an apartment nearby that it was this place to be like, hey, we'll take them for the weekend, We'll take them for a few days or anything, and they can stay here for a little bit, to set up a good structure for these kids, like, hey, this is well running water looks like Look, it's amazing, flashing the toilet looks like phenomenal things like that. That's like, these are decent human things we need. Right.

Was Ron upset, like how did he react when you got a place?

Well, I didn't get a place.

Oh you didn't.

I didn't. That's what I wanted, and that's why I started looking forward. That's where he was like, Oh, that's a good idea. But then an hour later or so, or maybe the next day, he's like that place isn't good.

Not that place, not that pay Yeah.

And I wanted to get back into the medical field and Abo. I was like, you know what, I'll take any job. He goes, Oh, you're not good enough for that job. You're not good enough. You don't let your skills of being a medical assistant sit here at McDonald's or a factory where I'm thinking start low and work my way up. Let me just get out there again. And he's like, oh no, no, no, no, you need something that.

Oh. He was like, you're you're too good for that job. Yes, yeah, okay, okay. What was the thing that actually got you out?

So I remember one morning I was putting a crap ris of may out to different places in indeed in New York, and I was like, Okay, if I'm meant to come back home to PA, I'm going to apply for a job down here that if I'm meant to have this job, then I'm meant to leave and everything. And so that was in the back of my mind. And the thing that I really solidified it is one night I was couldn't sleep and I'll let people know I was popping nine ten minut drill Night Justice sleep

My god, what a creep.

Yeah, and that I was like, I need to get out. I need to get out. I don't know how. I am terrified, but I need to get out. And for me getting out was still, Let's find an apartment, let's find a job, let's do still okay, I still want to pease them and have Jeremy be close enough and everything, but I need to get out and now.

And did you find I mean you, It sounds like you got the job in PA maybe and then ended up.

So that's an interesting story. I came down for my best friend's engagement party, and people knew down here in PA life wasn't great, that I was not happy. But that weekend I started letting the truth out, telling people how awful it was, telling my parents how awful it was that I am thirteen thousand dollars now in debt. This is all the crap, like there's no running it look like I can't flush the toilet. They're the running

Wow.

Yeah, yeah.

And it was in PA And did you ever see any of these people again or was it that this was kind of hard face?

I still saw them a little bit over Skype because even though I knew I was safe, I knew this is where I need to be. I that fall was still there, the work souid, the brain mush and everything that was still there. So it was slowly coming out of that and being like switching wrong voice to my voice again because every time I would hear Ron's voice, hear him in the back of my mind and I

Wow, yeah, and did you still feel like you loved Jeremy? Like what was how did that resolve?

So that I did? I very much did, and no one knew that I were in the long half. It wasn't until the day someone drove up there to get some of my stuff that I finally had the guts to tell them I'm not coming back. And it was the family yeah, and it was yeah, and create the people with in crazing Land. And it was under the guides of I'm not happy. My mind like, my mind's breaking down. I didn't have the terminology to say, I'm in a high control group. This is wrong, this is

Wow, I mean huge, hugely for you.

And about your draw to like, uh second life games, did that ever come back or.

A little bit? I shook my head there, but I was like a little bit. I mean I still have a draw out to fantasy. But this is why, like I'm out on aish social media. I won't ever get back on social media because even though like Facebook is great and of itself, I compare myself to there's way much. Yeah, that's what starts the discontentment. So instead I am putting like like I said, I'll always be into fantasy, but putting that drive into writing into like I now play

Yeah.

I was gonna say, if Ron would just take all this energy of like my aunts in the circus and write a fucking book.

Maybe instead of controlling people.

It's like wild.

Yeah, it is interesting how many cult leaders do actually write, that's true, write a.

Fantasy novel or I mean he sounds like he's a This is all like a sexual predator game at the end of the day, and Harry Potter is not going to fix any of it. But you know, really there has to be more outlets than yeah, just controlling a group of people with one toilet.

Like when I came out, I did blow off the roof of that place, because eventually a year later I called CPS on these people. I was like, if even though I'm not in contact those kids, I want to know at least I tried to do something for these kids. Yeah, so I did call in everything, and at that time I still was kind of connected to people on the outside who weren't in that group, who lived around that area, and they're like, oh yeah, they came. CCS came and

Right, yep. Wow. I mean I'm glad that the kids that were there hopefully moved somewhere a little bit better, but that that's so sad that more ended up with him. So okay, I just I want to just go back to what we were talking about a second ago, because you're talking about the difference between engaging with fantasy in a way that's like constructive and healthy versus not, And I wonder how you would articulate what that difference is.

So for me, it's when I start getting so sucked in. I start and I mean, I'm sure people have a vision who have an active imagination have this that they when they read a book, Like when I read a book, I see everything, I feel what the characters feel. But when I start going off the deep end of reading plotline, like oh if I made this character to fit in here, and I am so immersed that I realize, oh, I'm

What's the answer.

Usually at usually i find I'm like, well, one I the seasonal depression bad gets sense of this time I really got to be mindful, and it's realizing I haven't reached out. I've been so focused on me and what's going on in my life, which is that it's good to be aware and I want people to know there is the aspect that you've got to be emotionally aware

Yeah, amen, A community that's healthy, that does not feed the ego of one person exactly.

There's not one soul leader who makes all of the decisions exactly.

And I realized that a lot of people struggle with the same thing I do, and they're just looking to voice it too. It's just that person coming along saying I see you and man, today stuck, this was hard. Yeah, let me help you in the stuckiness. Let's sit in this, let's talk about it, Let's let the emotions out the

Damn, I'm so impressed you've you've been on the hero's journey.

It's therapy, it's I'm so grateful to my therapist long for the depailing she has allowed pushed me to do. And it's been hard. I don't want people to think like every day is great. I still I'm still shocked about how I run into some things I can. I'm like, whoa, whoa, that really landed heavy, that triggered something? Why? And there's another layer, there's another layer, like I'm sure you guys

Yeah, do you have any final thoughts, lessons, words of wisdom.

My words, oh, wisdom would be just what my dad said, if you're if for anyone who's listening out there, who's like, this doesn't feel right, and it doesn't have to be a high control group, it doesn't have to be a cult. If you're in relationship, whatever it might be, just stop ask questions and listen and observe. Yes, just observe, and be willing to go out and just say. And it takes a lot of courage and give yourself grace as

Yeah. I love that. I'm so glad you mentioned the questions thing again because I because I did mean to bring that up and I forgot. It's just just that simple thing of allowing yourself to think the unthinkable or ask a question that you know maybe you're not supposed to getting curious. Like we just see over and over and over again, that really is the difference between someone

Yeah, that you need.

Thank you so much for talking to us and for reaching out to us. I'm so grateful that you shared this story with us. It's so unique and I think people will relate to it in a new way, which is amazing.

Thank you so much for having me on here if I feel honor to be on here.

Major thanks to Tori, who is a listener of the show, for calling in with that story. I am so glad that she did. Other fellow listeners, we'd love to hear from you as well. Megan, what is your big takeaway from Tory's story? Which is really fun phrase to say.

I think that it's mostly just how we live in a society that is not meeting our needs to the extent that things such as these and are not cults, are second life or all these multitude of apps, games, whatever, are able to kind of take a hold of us.

And it makes perfect sense.

Yeah, I mean, we we're in the midst of a loneliness crisis since everyone is you know, well aware on technology and looking to technolo, which can be great for helping but also can be even more isolating. And I know we've talked about loneliness before and how we've experienced it, and it is amazing how you can really like, you can have people in your life, you can have friends, you can have a partner, and you can still feel

Yeah, yeah, I know.

They can be really meaningful and they are for so many people. It's just also important to make sure we're connecting with ourselves, with our bodies, with people in real life as much as we can, because it's just a different.

Experience, yea being in nature, Yeah, it's important. She seems like she's really found a happy medium, middle ground where yeah, yeah, it was impressed.

A healthy way of engaging in fantasy and yeah.

Totally, well thanks Tory, Thank you Toy, and thank you listeners for spending another week with us.

If you want to.

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And never ever trust me. Bye. Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

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