I've spent so many Saturday nights at the protests in Tel Aviv in solidarity with the hostages, and so many of them direct their appeals not to Netanyahu, but to President Trump. They're like going over his head. They're like, I want to speak to the head teacher in this situation. Basically, Sir, can you sort this mess out? Really interested in this split within the administration between the people who are kind of Israel 1st and those who
America first. In the end, it almost doesn't matter because Donald Trump doesn't listen to anyone. You know, it's, it's hard to get into the mind of President Trump is even harder, I would say, to get into the mind of a Prime Minister Netanyahu. Hi, I'm Anushka Astana, welcome to Trump World. You will notice that I am not
joined by Matt this week. He is having a well deserved break, although I would love to chat to him about the crazy amount of stuff that has once again happened this week in Trump World. It is, of course, the 2nd anniversary of the October 7th Hamas attacks. And I want to talk about Israel, Gaza, because it's feeling extremely positive at the moment. At least the possibility of a first stage deal, hostages perhaps being released and you know, detainees in Israel also
being released. They're being held without trial at the moment. Let's look at all of this. Let's see where we are. Both sides seem to have said to Donald Trump's 20 point peace plan. Yes. But the president really wants to seize on the yes and wants to run with that.
And for the first time in all of this, he is really exerting pressure on Benjamin Netanyahu. The perfect person to talk to about all of this is our foreign affairs correspondent, Sukunda Kamani. He has travelled to Israel a dozen times since October the 7th. He spent a lot of time reporting from the West Bank and he even was able to go into Gaza at the beginning of all of this with the IDF. He has a perspective on the region that goes very far and very deep.
And I want to talk to him about that relationship with the US, about how important it is and about whether Donald Trump is the man who is finally going to get some progress on all of this. Welcome Secunder to the podcast. So much has happened in the last two years. I just wonder if I could start by asking you to almost just take us back, remind us where we are right now. You know, starting with October the 7th itself.
Do you remember where you were when you found out about it and just what it meant to Israel and the world? Yeah, well, good to be with you, Anushka. And as, as you say, it's been a horrific 2 years. Let's see how things end and where we are right now. A great deal of optimism after so much horror going back to to
October the 7th. You know, I was here in London and received a message early morning on my phone from our local colleague in Gaza saying something, something massive, something very worrying is just happening.
We immediately realised as we saw the images coming in on, on our phones, on social media, that this was something on a scale that has we had never seen before, that Israel had never seen before, that the conflict had never seen before, certainly in, in terms of Israel being targeted by, by, by Palestinian
militants. And so as soon as possible, we got on a flight to Israel and, and within, you know, less than 24 hours, we were there on the ground reporting on Hamas attack, um, the, the civilians, 800 or so who were killed, Uh, particularly around, um, in, in the Kabut scene, the little communities right on the border with Gaza and at the music
festival. Um, and at that time, you know, I remember so many heartbreaking stories from, from Israelis there also getting a sense really of the, of the rage within Israel that we would see build and build and build and manifest in itself in the, in the brutal assault that, that Israel has carried out in, in Gaza with more than 65,067 thousand, I, I believe now Palestinians killed in Gaza, I don't think anyone expected things to go as far as they've
gone. And and you know, beyond Israel, Palestine, there's been huge repercussions right across the Middle East. You look at the defeat effectively of Hezbollah in Lebanon, long seen as, you know, a massive threat by the Israelis. You look at the direct conflict between Israel and and Iran. You know, a kind of shadow war had played out for many years between those two sides. We ended up seeing ballistic missiles being traded between them.
We really saw the destruction of Iran's so-called axis of resistance by Israel at the same time that Israel has achieved this massive military dominance within the region. At the same time, you've seen it's international standing absolutely decimated. I mean, it's incredible to think that, you know, the Prime Minister serving Prime Minister of Israel, the the the former defence minister, you have gallant they are indicted by the International Criminal Court on
war crimes. You have Aun Commission of inquiry that has described what's happening in Gaza as as a genocide. You know, Israel disputes that. But, but really you can see from certainly European countries, countries that have been traditional supporters of of Israel, there's a a great deal of of anger and frustration directed particularly from, from from public opinion also at
governmental level. Obviously, as we speak, the talks are taking place in Egypt. It's feeling quite positive for certainly the first stage of this. And I want to go through quite a lot of what you've said and try and unpack some of it. You know, that point about how isolated Israel is has really struck me recently.
The thing that really struck me was when Benjamin Netanyahu flew from Israel to New York in the US to speak at the UN General Assembly, he actually had to avoid French and Spanish airspace because of that indictment by the International Criminal Court. I thought it was a real symbol of how isolated Israel has become.
Let's talk about this and I want to really focus in on the US Israel relationship, the importance of it and the extent to which Donald Trump himself is playing an important role in this. To the negotiations in in Egypt, the mood amongst everyone right now seems to be optimistic, certainly the most optimistic that we've seen in the last in the last two years. There seems to be real concerted pressure from President Trump. He's the one who's really
driving this. And we've seen that throughout the conflict that President Trump in particular, unlike Biden, has the ability to turn the screws on, on all sides, but particularly on on the Israelis, because that was something that was missing under the the previous administration, I think and and push forward deals. We saw that when President Trump was assuming office in, in, in, in in January and we had the
first ceasefire. So right now negotiations are taking place in direct negotiations between the Israelis and and Hamas in Egypt, brokered by the Egyptians and categories. We've got Steve Witkoff, US, the President Trump special envoy, Jared Kushner, Trump's son-in-law. They've flown in Ron Derma, who's kind of Netanyahu's right hand man He's there. These are all promising signs because they say that that they tell us that the negotiations are making progress.
Wickoff is that I think explicitly said that he he was going to only arrive when, when and if progress was being made. At this stage. Right now, Hamas say that they've given a list of prisoners, detainees who they want to be released in exchange for the Israeli hostages. You know, there's talk that perhaps something could be agreed within the next couple of days. Let's wait and see. There are also, you know, major sticking points that that frankly, I'm not clear how we're
going to be resolved. For example, you know, Hamas still wants a full Israeli, Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in exchange for releasing the hostages. Israel still wants Hamas to, to completely disarm itself. Hamas does not want to to, to do that.
Now, I think it's quite possible that some of those issues are going to be somewhat kicked into the longer grass and you're going to, we're seeing a kind of first stage of an agreement being reached in which Israel commits to some kind of withdrawal in exchange for the hostages. And and then those even thornier issues around governance in Gaza, Hamas's future, a complete Israeli withdrawal are still,
are still, are still discussed. Hopefully whilst there's no, there's an end to, to the bombing right now, you know, there's still a degree of, of Israeli attacks going on, but nothing like what we've seen in, in the past where it's routine to see, you know, dozens, 5060, a hundred Palestinians in excess of that of their times killed on a, on a, on a daily basis. I just want to focus in on why Donald Trump is a person who's
able to do this. The relationship between America and Israel, a relationship that has, you know, existed and been unbelievably closed for decades. As Israel has become more isolated, that bipartisan relationship has not weakened, although Donald Trump is for the first time exerting pressure onto Israel. I mean, this goes right back.
And we don't have to go all the way back in this conversation, but, you know, to President Truman, you know, actually being the first, I think, leader in the world to recognise the state of Israel. And then after the 1967 war, America particularly associating itself with Israel, seeing Israel as its absolute key ally in in that region. Why? Why are these two countries as
close as they are? I mean, I'm sorry to say to our viewers and listeners in the UK that while I do get the impression since being here in the US, that they, the Americans, do consider U.S. special, that there is no other special relationship that tops Israel for Americans.
Why do you think that is? Yeah, You know, I was just looking at some data today and it's going it was saying that that since World War 2, I think there's been in excess of the equivalent contemporary equivalent of around $300 billion of aid supplied by by America to Israel. So it's been a huge, a huge support for for Israel continues to be a huge support. You know, there's a guarantee of around $3 billion of military aid that is supplied every year.
America wields huge political, cultural and, you know, economic influence over over as well as its largest trading partner. As well as you say, the relationship goes back to the founding of Israel the the creation of it in 1948. President Truman was actually somewhat his administration was somewhat split over whether to recognise Israel or not.
He he went ahead with it. But but you know, particularly during the Cold War, you saw the the Americans ally themselves with the Israelis on the on the other side, the Palestinians, Yasser Arafat, the PLO, They were, they were left wing movements. They were, you know, they were not the, the Hamas of today, which are a religious organization. They were, they were secularists. They were part of the kind of the left wing, anti colonial post colonial movements all
around the world. And so, you know, the Americans, which were, you know, opposed to the the Soviet Union, saw their natural ally as as the Israelis. You've also seen American administrations, for example, Clinton playing key roles in trying to broker some kind of some kind of peace.
But you, you, you've seen, you know, consistent accusations and, and feelings from the Palestinian side that the Americans are, are, yes, they're, they're mediating and they're negotiating, but they're always favouring the favouring
the, the, the, the Israeli side. I mean, 11 American diplomat I was speaking to not long after October the 7th, You know, it gave me something of an insight into the personal connections that some, that some Americans, I think feel towards Israel, where he said, you know, I, I'm a Zionist in the same way that President Biden is a Zionist in that I don't believe Europe can be trusted with the Jews given their history. And so they need their own homeland.
And that, that was to me was very interesting because that's not the kind of language I'd ever really heard expressed by, by politicians in, in, in, in Europe, even those who are supportive of, of Israel and you know, who, who want to ensure Israel's security as, as well as, you know, a part of the statehood for the, for the Palestinians. So that was that was interesting to me.
And, and perhaps we can discuss it later, but there's also been, you know, a very strong Christian Zionist movement in, in the United States. And that has also been certainly for the, the Republican Party, a key factor, I think in their, in their support for, for Israel. Now what we're seeing, I think is, is, is perhaps some levels of declining support in, in America for, for, for, for Israel.
You know, 1 Israeli official I was speaking to last year who's very into, had a big presence on social media. He said, you know, we see what's happening. We see the protests in, in universities like Colombia. And we realize that perhaps there's, there's a generational shift and, and that this level of support that Israel has traditionally received from America is not always going to
last initially. I mean, you're there in DC and I wanted to ask you, I mean, how do you see all these competing influences on President Trump when when it comes to Israel policy on on the one hand, there's been, you know, this very traditionally strong pro Israel lobby within American politics. On the flip side, you know, he's got strong ties in this good relationship with the Qataris, with the Saudis. He wants to be a peacemaker.
What what's driving President Trump because it's something, you know, that I here in London or when I'm in the Middle East have, have, have always wandered and have never really been able to, to, to fathom. Well, what's driving President Trump is his own desires for what he wants. I said to a former negotiator who's worked for literally decades on Middle East negotiations within Republican and Democratic administrations about this.
And I said, really interested in this split within the administration between the people who are kind of Israel 1st and those who are America First. And his argument was that in the end, almost doesn't matter because Donald Trump doesn't listen to anyone. You know, it doesn't kind of really matter what they're saying to him because it's just what his desire is.
And clearly at the moment, and I don't mean to be facetious with this, but I think he really, really wants a Nobel Peace Prize. And this is the kind of ultimate point at which he knows he has the power to get it. And we'll come into why I think Donald Trump has this particular power at the moment. But in terms of those divides, you know, in 2019, Donald Trump said he was the most pro Israeli
president in history. And when we looked at the formation of his team initially that it really speaks to that. I mean, you talk about evangelical Christians. Mike Huckabee, who is the ambassador for America to Israel, is an evangelical Christian who I don't think can even bring himself to say the words. West Bank thinks that the West Bank is an area that by God's will belongs to Jewish people and is a really, really key
player in all of this. You've also got Marco Rubio as the Secretary of State who is really, you know, quite hawkish when it comes to the Israel situation. But we have a really interesting situation unfolding in the US where even on the right there are now big divides in this, including the rise of some anti-Semitism.
It feels like to me within that MAGA Make America Great movement again, we have very kind of high profile figures like Tucker Carlson who are now really, really critical about Israel. There are a lot of conspiracy theories about the death of Charlie Kirk that are doing the rounds that people are talking about. The podcasts in which some of these things are being discussed are the most listened to podcasts sack even more listeners than we've got right
now here. And and that is happening on the right. Meanwhile, we have an age divide where younger people are much less sympathetic to Israel than some older people, even within their own families, even within the Jewish community. I spent, you know, a recent day in New York with liberal Jewish communities who were really, really unhappy about what was happening in Gaza and were telling me about the difficult conversations they were actually having with their parents back home.
If you look at the polling, you know, sentiment has shifted that, you know, there's more sympathy towards Israel here than there, it towards Israelis here than there is towards Palestinians. But the gap has massively closed and the sympathy has actually dropped below 50%, which it has, I think in Gallup's polling done for the first time since they've been doing that polling. So there is a shift and Donald
Trump will be aware of that. But but I just want to ask you this, actually, Donald Trump's position that he's put himself out as, as the most pro Israeli president has in many ways, I think got us to where we are now. On the one hand, as someone was saying to me, America hasn't actually imposed a single cost or consequence on Israel throughout all of this. And I think it's really
important to remember that now. And even now he's talking about giving Benjamin Netanyahu the green light to obliterate Hamas if they don't agree to what he's putting forward. But, but is there also an argument that in Israel, in Israel, that relationship with the US is so important? The relationship with the US president is so important.
And it's even more important now when there is that massive isolation across the rest of the world and that has empowered Donald Trump to be stronger when it comes to this and to put much more pressure on Netanyahu, including, as we've seen, you know, he he does lose his tempo. You saw in June, he said that neither Iran nor Israel knew what the F they were doing. Some people say that was more hot air than substantive. I'm interested in your view on that.
But behind the scenes here, it looks like he's picked up the phone to Netanyahu, who said there was nothing to celebrate when Hamas said they were open to agreeing to the beginning of this and telling him to stop being so effing negative. I mean, is he the one man in the world who can actually influence Netanyahu? Yeah, I think you're.
You're absolutely right. I mean, I remember for example, when when the Trump administration was coming into office in, in in January and special envoy Steve Witkoff was going flying into to, to Israel to meet Prime Minister Netanyahu as part of negotiation to try and introduce a, a, a ceasefire. Just as as Trump was going to be sworn in.
And he was he wanted to meet Netanyahu on on Saturday, the Shabbat, the, the holy day for, for, for in Israel, for, for the Jewish people when people don't wouldn't normally work. And so Prime Minister Netanyahu said, I, you know, I can't meet you during the day. And, and Witkoff is reported to have said, look, I don't care. You're meeting me. Trump wants me to meet you. You're meeting me. And, and, and Netanyahu turned up and, and, and met him.
And I mean, the, the, I think the big difference is yes, there's, there's of course the, the relationship between Israel and, and, and America that's strong.
But you can see the difference in tone that Netanyahu talks with President Trump with compared to how we talked with, with, with Biden, you know, who's also president, Because I think the difference is that when, when Biden was in power, Netanyahu always had in the back of his mind, he's on his way out and Trump is coming and Trump is going to give us everything we want. He's going to.
And that was very much the tone within, within, within the Israeli, within the Israeli, particularly right wing political sphere where they thought, right, Trump is going to come in because on, on the back, as, as you said, in his first administration, he recognized Jerusalem as the, the capital of Israel. He, you know, put forward a. Deal of the century plan that would have recognised Israeli control over lots of settlements, for example.
So they thought right. And and all the noises from Trump on the campaign trail were also about about Biden is not strong enough on in supporting Israel. So I think Netanyahu was able to kind of bat off anything that that Biden tried to throw at him. Not that really Biden ever really tried to exert any pressure. We saw kind of tough words at times from people like Blinken 0 National, I think. Largely supplying billions pounds worth of weapons? No, rather than any actual pressure?
Exactly. Exactly. I mean, you saw words, right? You saw Blinken saying, OK, the level of killing is is unacceptable, but what does that mean if you're continuing to send all the weapons? And so where's now, where does Netanyahu go? He's got, he's got no one else other than Trump. I mean, even he's, as we've discussed, like his European allies have become increasingly frustrated.
They've, you know, they're backing the idea of A2 state solution, something that he's become increasingly vocal and in, in, in opposing. So that has a, a kind of a bit,
a big weight. You know, I think it's, it's interesting when you're in Israel, I've, you know, I've spent so many Saturday nights at the, the, the protests in Tel Aviv in solidarity with the, with the, with the hostages where, you know, large numbers of people there are anti government, fed up with the, with the Netanyahu government, frustrated by the fact that he hasn't signed a deal that would
bring the hostages back. And so many of them direct their appeals not to Netanyahu, but to President Trump. They're like going over his head. They're like, I want to speak to the head teacher in this situation. Basically, Sir, can you sort this mess out? Because we want our hostages back and, and, and we have no trust in our own leadership to do it. You're the one who can do it.
And, you know, I saw videos of hostages once they've been released, going and meeting President Trump in, in the Oval Office and they're all praising him, lavishing him with these, you know, words of Sir, you're the only one who could do this. As soon as you came to office, we knew that you would be able to get things moving again. Everyone wants to say yes. No one wants to say no. That includes Hamas, right?
I mean, you look at the statement that Hamas gave that that in relation to this, this US plan, it was, it was a yes, but but it was, it was framed in very positive language. And that allowed Trump, I think, to latch onto it with a as being a yes, rather than focusing on the on the but, which is definitely what Prime Minister Netanyahu was hoping to do, I think. Yeah, it is it. Is fascinating, 1 Middle East analyst said to me yesterday.
And I wasn't completely convinced by this, but interested in your opinion that maybe Netanyahu doesn't mind some of this pressure from Donald Trump because it gives him something to play against those who are even further to the right of him in the cabinet. I mean, it was quite telling that when he was here at the White House 4th visit this year, you know, by far, I think the the person who's been here the most since Trump's second presidency began.
And he had to do obviously the theatrics of what Donald Trump likes, call the Qatari Prime Minister on the phone and apologise for the strike in on Doha that immediately the those to the right of him in the cabinet were criticising what he was doing, were really unhappy with it. Do you think it almost gives Netanyahu a tiny bit of cover or do you think he's probably quite frustrated with how far Donald Trump has now gone? You know it's it's. Hard to get into the mind of President Trump.
It's even harder, I would say, to get into the mind of of Prime Minister Netanyahu and, and what exactly he wants. He was always being described certainly to me as someone who's, you know, a master strategist and someone who's not necessarily really particularly ideologically driven, but just someone who is interested in maintain maintaining power.
Certainly that and that's the critique you get from lots of his opponents within Israel who say that he's prolonged the war for his own political gain to keep his, his coalition with those far right Israeli, frankly, extremist parties keep to keep that alive, to keep that going. Also keeping an eye on the fact that he's got a, a trial ongoing. And and, you know, more focus will inevitably fall on that if and when the war, the war ends.
And and certainly if there's new elections, it, it seems unlikely at the moment that he would, he would, he would win those, those elections. I mean, going back to Trump as well, though, I mean, what what's interesting to me is the way he's kind of oscillated. So January, he pushes through a ceasefire and the far right in Israel was shocked.
I mean, I remember like the settler leader, Daniella Weiss, who's like the godmother, the settler movement saying, you know, he came into power saying he was going to give Hamas hell. He's giving us hell. And they were, they were rattled. Then just a few weeks later, you have Trump saying, actually, there's going to be a plan that's going to basically ethnic cleanse Gaza and take it over. And Netanyahu was sitting there next to him and you could see
Netanyahu thinking, wow. I mean, this is language that I haven't used that this is this is very much the language that my far right partners, Smotrich and and Ben Gavir are on board with. And and then kind of the Israeli government caught up with with Trump.
And you know, similarly, when, when Israel blocked off all humanitarian aid for, for like 2 months, you know, the situation that led to basically the declaration of famine that we, that we've had in, in Gaza, who had not a like, not a squeak out of Trump, right? There was no pressure really, it seemed to to resume humanitarian aid.
By contrast, Biden did. I mean, that's one of the few instances where I think he managed to exert some pressure on on Netanyahu. And straight after October the 7th, they put a lot of pressure on them to to resume supplies to, you know, inadequate levels of supplies, but some supplies back into Gaza after they had been initially completely, completely cut off. But I think right now Netanyahu definitely feels under pressure from Trump. He feels like he has nowhere else to turn.
So whatever Trump dictates, he's going to have to go along with. We saw him like being able to play, I think Trump, certainly Biden in the past by coming up with new demands, framing acceptances, framing de facto refusals of of agreements as acceptances. Right now, there seems to be a momentum that seems to be sweeping him away. But there's still, there's still a long way to go.
And you know what, what, what, what I'm wondering is how long will this conflict sustain President Trump's interest, especially if we we only reach some kind of initial phase of a deal where all the hostages are out. You know, Hamas has a big fear that we give away all our leverage. What's to stop Israel resuming the war, The Qataris and the Saudis and Egyptians obviously pressuring the Americans to give some kind of guarantees around that. But I mean, how do you use it?
Do you think that that that Trump wants to see a lasting peace? I mean, he, he doesn't, he's been very critical of the Europeans for recognising Palestine as a, as a state or, or is he focused on a more short term win? It's really hard to know. Because of the the isolation that you talk about and you know, just to give another example of it, you talk about the Ukraine. We talked a lot about the Ukraine situation, about Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
You know, in the summer, Donald Trump was talking about Ukraine will have to cede land in order for that to end. Then suddenly he was talking about the idea that Ukraine could win back all the land that has already been taken. I mean, these two positions are so far apart, it's hard to understand how the same person could mutter those words. And I think we have a similar situation here with Israel and
Gaza that you've just set out. I think the kind of the drive for him, and you've mentioned it when you've mentioned the other Arab countries that involved in these talks, is that, you know, he wants to, in the long term, try to normalise relations between Israel and Arab countries, in particular between Israel and Saudi Arabia. In reality, that's quite a long way away because of the butts in the yes, butts. And I just want to come to those in a minute.
But, you know, just remember, this is a president who travelled to Qatar, a country that he's been so critical of in the past and had a absolutely lavish, you know, trip there. You know, I was speaking to some of the Qataris, they were saying the first time they've ever actually had an official visit from AUS president, although US presidents have been there before because of the American base that is there. How furious or not he really was when Israel struck Doha.
He wants the world to think he's furious about that because he sees those relationships with Arab countries as incredibly important. And, you know, I wouldn't say on the same level as his relationship with Israel, but not so far off. And so for him, actually there is a kind of personal desire in terms of the long term Middle East policy for America, which has actually crossed through Biden and back to Donald Trump, which is that normalisation if they can get to it between those.
At one point he was talking about the idea of actually having a security pact between those countries, but then he has the issue with with especially with the Doha strike, those countries are increasingly seeing Israel as a pariah in all of this. Now, as much as he's pressuring Israel, they're obviously pressuring Hamas.
As you say, the Qataris really pushing hard for written guarantees from Israel. Now, in terms of what happens, you know, after the hostages were released, then Hamas have no leverage over Israel. How do we then guarantee what comes next? And let's just talk about that because, you know, I sat and watched Benjamin Netanyahu at the UN General Assembly. He couldn't have been clearer. He does not want a Palestinian state.
He stood there and he said giving the Palestinians and he said Palestinians, not Hamas, Palestinians, a state a mile from Jerusalem is like giving Al Qaeda a state a mile from New York. He then travelled to the White House. He had a six hour meeting where he insisted on a number of edits to the 20 point peace plan, some of which are pretty significant around the timetable of the Israeli withdrawal. He made changes that apparently made some of the Arab officials furious.
He then stood up in the White House. He agreed to this plan. He didn't take a single question from journalists and and .19 of the plan talks about a path towards Palestinian statehood. It has lots of caveats set, but it talks about a plan to Palestinian statehood. And then within no time at all, Benjamin Netanyahu makes a video message saying there will not be a Palestinian state for the Arab
countries. When I talk to sources who are working with the Arab countries, there will never be a normalisation for them with Israel until it is very clear what that path to a Palestinian state is. So as as positive as we are at the moment about the hope of a hostage exchange with all these detainees in Israel who have been held without any sense of a trial, the butts are quite
important, aren't they? Like how likely is it that whatever we get this week actually leads to a position where we are moving towards a 2 state solution or or do you see that as impossible with this Israeli government? Yeah. Look, it's, it's an interesting question in this game. I mean, I mean, so many people I've, I've, I've read and talked to have said that what we're looking at now, you know, is, is really a, a, a ceasefire rather
than an end to the conflict. And, and, you know, let's not denigrate the importance of a ceasefire, you know, particularly when you have famine that 10s of thousands of Palestinians killed. I mean, you know, the worst humanitarian disaster taking place under it in front of our eyes right now in, in, in, in Gaza. You know, that's clearly, that is clearly the immediate
priority. But yes, I mean, the, the idea of a longer lasting just solution for, for, for everyone in the region looks to be a very distant prospect. I mean, what's interesting to me is, is being in Israel, you know, when so many of those Western countries were were recognizing A Palestinian state, it wasn't just Prime Minister Netanyahu who came out in opposition to it. It was right across the political spectrum.
You know, it was the head of the opposition, it was the Yaya Lapid, it was Yaya Galan who's the head of the Democrats, the kind of the main, you know, further to the left party. Certainly. You know, the person who's perhaps if he, if he, if he ends up formally running Naftali Bennett, who, who, who might become the new Prime Minister. He's he's, you know, another right wing figure. He's absolutely viscerally opposed to, to, to, to A2 state
solution. So, you know, it's not just necessarily a question of right, this government is voted out, which is, is quite likely to happen when there are elections next year. And you know, we might see a new attitude. At the moment there is no appetite at all. In fact, there's absolute determination not to allow a Palestinian state to, to, to be created. Of course things can change.
And you know, you are like I, I was speaking to a Palestinian official from, from the Palestinian Authority, you know, who, who it's hoped would have a role in, in, in governing Gaza instead of Hamas in the future. And I said to him, you know, actually prior to October the 7th, all the polls in in the West Bank, and probably, I think polls still now certainly in the West Bank would show that if there were democratic elections which have not taken place for around 2 decades there, then
Hamas would be elected. So how do you deal with that like that? That's the reality of what people feel on the ground. And he said the problem is like, we can't, you can't polling now. People's emotions are so inflamed that there's no point. There's no point or there's a limited value in in asking them their views right now. Ask after everything as as the dust has settled somewhat and then and when we have results to show people. So perhaps the same could happen in Israel.
Perhaps we'll see, you know, in a year's time, six months time, perhaps we'll see a a greater mood of reflection. I mean, we've seen a kind of a small but growing vocal left wing movement on the on the ground in Israel that that's kind of more opposed to, to, to Israeli actions.
But I mean, when you look at the reality, particularly in the in the occupied West Bank, which is a place where I spend a lot of time, because as you know, foreign journalists are, are banned from getting into Gaza by the Israelis. You know, the way that you have 500,000 settlers, Israeli settlers now living there, carving up the territory.
It seems on the face of it to make any kind of future Palestinian state extremely, extremely, extremely difficult, if not impossible, certainly without visionary, very motivated leadership on, on on all sides, particularly on the Israeli side. And and that doesn't seem to be something that's on the cards and just a. Final thought from me on that and then we'll wrap up. But the question you asked me about what where does America stand on the long term? Does it want a lasting peace?
I was in the White House briefing room this week listening to Press Secretary Caroline Leavitt and and the absolute focus was on getting this first stage done, getting security guarantees for Israel in particular and getting to a ceasefire as fast as they can. When she was asked by an American journalist, do you then, you know, if there is then a technocratic Palestinian leadership in Gaza, do you then support the idea of a Palestinian state?
She wouldn't be drawn on it at all and basically said, let's not get ahead of ourselves. So for all the pressure Trump is exerting right now, I don't think we should kid ourselves that America is going to come all out in terms of completing the plan. And support for Israel remains very strong within this administration. Seth, thank you so much for your time and for being with us today. I really, really appreciate it.
Good to be with you. That was Sakanda Kamani, our foreign affairs correspondent here at Channel 4 News. Do watch all of his amazing content. That's it for this week at Trump WORLD. Next week, I'll be back with Matt when he returns from holiday. See you then.