Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. The Golden Age of America begins right now. I will very simply put America first.
Welcome to trump Andomics, the Bloomberg podcast that looks at the economic world of Donald Trump, how he's already shaped the global economy and what on earth is going to happen next. I'm Stephanie Flanners, head of Government and Economics at Bloomberg, and this week we're recording Trump Andomics in the Swiss Alps, in the Bloomberg DeVos House at the World Economic Forum, And as we speak, we're looking at pictures from Washington. We're recording on Monday, and the second
inauguration of Donald Trump is getting underway. So we did I think it was fitting given the timing that in this episode we asked the question, is Davos learning the art of the deal? You know, not so long ago, the billionaires, the heads of state, the tech moguls who come here every January for the World Economic Forum, they thought they were done with Donald Trump, and now they seem to be pretty meekly falling into line.
I'm super fired up for the future. It's going to be very exciting.
As the President said, We're going to have a golden age. I'm actually very optimistic this time. He seems to have a lot of energy around.
Reducing regulation, and if I can help him do that, I'm going to help him. I mean, seeing Donald Trump get get up after getting shot.
In the face and pump his fist in.
The air with the American flag, it's like hard to not get kind of emotional about that spirit.
And I'm wondering what the implications are for everyone else and for markets, for money, for investors, for the broader world. And I've got a stellar cast here to discuss these issues, Bloomberg's editor in chief, John Micklethwaite, and I'm very glad that you made it this year. You were human ill last year and lots of us had to pretend to
be you, which didn't go well at all. We have Jenny Leonard white House reporter who focuses on international economic issues and has been the first to an awful lot of trade stories and policies ever since she came to Bloomberg.
And Bradstone, who's now editor of Bloomberg business Week, but before that was Senior Executive editor for Global Technology at Bloomberg News and the author of four books very relevant to our discussions today, including Amazon Unbound, Jeff Bezos and The Invention of a Global Empire Looking Around, and it was written up rather nicely in an introductory story that Bloomberg News wrote, You'd have to say the movers and shakers descending on the World Economic Forum here in Devils
this week have already been paying their dues to the new president, realigning their priorities to better fit his somewhat unreconstructed America First Agenda. We had a great quote from Lloyd Blankvine, the former head of Goldman Sachs. He said he was reminded of what happened when Napoleon escaped from Elba, and the French newspapers changed their tune pretty dramatically in
eighteen fifteen. They started off, in fact, the Monitor started off characterizing Napoleon as a monster, but by the time he got close to Paris, they announced that his Majesty was arriving. And it definitely has sort of felt a bit like that, And of course Donald Trump himself would
love the comparison with Napoleon. So let me start with you, Brad, because there has been so much focus on how Silicon Valley has sort of turned on a dime with this president and some of the key figures like Mark Zuckerberg in particular. But maybe what's changed it is just they've been able to show their true colors.
Everything has changed.
Let's go about eight years ago and all the CEOs in to the White House looking like they had some bad fish the night before, and there was Tim Cook and Jeff Bezos and Cheryl Sandberg.
Zuckerberg didn't even go.
Elon didn't go, and then withdrew from the Presidential Council a couple of weeks later when Trump withdrew from the Paris Climate Accords, and so what happened? I mean, they felt unjustly persecuted during the Biden years, either through the anti trust agenda or the regulation of crypto, maybe a little bit of the anti tech mood in the media. And they have come out of the last four years in some ways you know, maga and it's startling.
But look, credit Trump a little bit.
He opened the tent large enough to make room for all the tech leaders and they see a kind of common cause with Trump on crypto, on anti trust, on Mark and Dreesen calls it raising the tech flag building acquiring investing, and I think you know, there's optimism, but there's also opportunity.
And they know that by closing up.
To Trump and contributing to the inauguration and being up there.
In the day is today, that that is good for business.
I mean, you make the point though, that you know they have shifted in the last eight years. It's not just that they're sort of suddenly waking up to the reality of a second Trump term. So how much were you surprised by any of what's happened in the last time.
Absolutely shocked, because you know, there did seem to be a sense of legitimate resistance eight years ago.
But the world has changed. And Trump, as you know, as I said, you know, to his credit, he's evolved. Now there's not a lot of consistency.
I mean, he was the one who raised the idea of banning TikTok and has just given it a reprieve. He was anti crypto and just launched the Trump coin and the Melennia coin to great enrichment of the family. So he's seeing some of the political and frankly the financial opportunities of being big Trump, being.
Big tech, big Trump. I think, well, that might be even more appropriate.
Obviously financially, and that's a big part of all the discussions around here. We have seen a lot of bedding on and moving of money in line with the Trump agenda, not just bitcoin, but price of oil, growth, stocks, the dollar.
They've all gone up there about eight percent. I was looking at it this morning, since Donald Trump was elected, and when I look at what the impact has already been on countries like the UK, the big increase in bond yield that's gone with this, you know, it feels like already before he's done anything, any country with underlying weaknesses, any government with underlying weaknesses, is having those exacerbated or highlighted just by the fact of the Trump agenda, and
they're on the back foot. How would you say the world has changed in particularly the sort of foreign policy and financial markets.
What Brad said about tech is actually quite true of business in general, and not just linked to Trump. I mean, I think if you look around the world, compared with say eight years ago, business people everywhere since both more fear and more opportunity in their relations with government. The idea when I first started coming to devoce that business was this wonderful thing that existed outside the realms of government, and it was all about kind of doing good and
all that sort of stuff. Now business people realize that you can both get clobbered by government, and that applies from Trump, but it also applies to the European Union and lots of other places. But also it's a chance for enrichment, as you know, TikTok is suddenly discovering and lots of other people that people in the Midwest now will be thinking, well, maybe we can make money out
of tariffs if they come our way. There'll be people you know around here thinking about different things that they might be able together if Europe puts up bigger barriers and so on. So there's both kind of fear and greed are driving business and government together, I think generally. But on this specific question you said, you can see it everywhere. You know, Britain has suddenly got somewhat sort of freaked out by a kind of semi Liz Trust moment.
You can argue how much of this is Rachel We've spoilt also, you know, and how much of it is just the simple fact that Trump has arrived and everything has been thrown into greater kind of impact either good or bad. And I think that's almost almost a way to look at Trump at the moment. He's sort of throw every weakness or every strength is somehow being massively exaggerated. Trump is always about exaggerating.
And when it comes to the UK, I mean if you look at actually the sort of gap in borrowing costs between the UK and the US has barely moved, and yet all of the pressure, none of the pressure in the UK has all been on the chancellor for reasons that sort of pre date that change. Well, I
want it in a little bit good defense. I'm just looking at the spread on as you'd expect any Bloomberg imparted, we will get onto some of these kind of broader packs of basic things like the cost of money actually going up along.
With all good news.
But Jenny, obviously a lot of the big news we've seen have been trying to game out how serious Donald Trump is on his agenda for tariffs, what it will mean for different aspects of the global economy and different companies. So, since you're usually the first to find out these things, what's your sense so far?
Well, I would also say Washington has seen a big shift since the last strund term on this. First of all, they're all accepting the outcome that he's president again. But we also see both parties coming together wanting to do things together, which I think eight years ago we wouldn't have imagined them talking about, oh, we need to actually do something on the border, because that played into the election outcome. Maybe Trump has a point here on trade,
on tariffs. They're talking about tariffs in a very different way than eight years ago. The GOP that's in the Congress right now, I think has many more Trump allies than they did traditional free trade republicans eight years ago. You know, we see TikTok is a massive shift from a bipartisan, massively bipartisan legislation that passed saying this is a national security threat, it has to be banned. All of a sudden. Mike Walls, the incoming National Security Advisor, says,
this is a great app. I think I wish I had it on my phone. That kind of shift is what we're seeing right now. Doge is another example. This is all things that we're seeing right now, and I think when the rubber meets the road, we're going to see if this actually sticks. I am a little bit skeptical that everyone in the Republican Party will go along with broad global tariffs hitting every country, every import. I also think we've seen this from spending discussions in Washington.
When it comes to cutting your base in your district or whatever project you care about, you know, they might throw a fit. And I think that we'll see when the rubber meets the road if they're actually that far along in their shrift.
Well, we have had and you've been involved with some of them. I mean, there have already been sort of competing narratives coming out of the administration, precisely on tariffs, because you have a sort of grown up view supposedly that says, oh, they're going to be targeted. There was a Washington Post story that talked about that, and then quite a lot of pushback that seems to have come from even from Donald Trump himself.
Yes, I will say we'll probably see a repeat of what we saw eight years ago on the economic front and the battle on the inside on tariffs. We have two camps. Largely, even though Scott Besson and Hard Lutnik I think are talking about tariffs now in a way that are a little bit more in line with the Hawks than Steven Mnuchan maybe did eight years ago as
his Treasury secretary. But we had reported that there is an effort under way to stage the tariffs, to not hit every country, every reimport with ten percent, twenty percent, you name it, at one time, but kind of go gradually. And the way it was described to us is this is a negotiating play. We open this up, countries will come to the table, we get something out of it, but we don't cause massive inflation by hitting every good
with twenty percent. We report it this morning that he's not going after China the way he promised on the campaign trail. Of all the executive orders he will sign today, there's not going to be anything on tariffs. There will be no day on tariffs, even though everyone who's been following his truth social posts, I think we're expecting China tariffs for fentanyl, China tariffs for trade, Mexico Canada tariffs. All that seems to have been put on pause for
we don't know how long. But that's the state of play right now. And if you follow his public comments but also privately, is what I'm told he has really shifted on China to a much less adversarial tone. He used to bring up in meetings with people his agrievances about Beijing, and now we see he hopped on the phone. He invited Chujingping to the inauguration. He's obviously not coming, but sent his vice president. He tweeted about world peace
and he wants to save TikTok. And we also know that nothing in Trump world really sticks for a very long time. So this could all change tomorrow. If the Hawks get in a room with the President and say, hey, you know what, you really let down some of your supporters who voted for you because you promised across the world tariffs and you did nothing on day one, this could sway him.
I mean what is funny is, of course, of all the things in Trump's agenda on which both parties he has united, it is an aggressive antipathy towards China. So if that's the one thing that he steps back from will be interesting. But I mean, sorry, Elon, they need for the need for pay Brad, this is this all, Elon. I mean, you have the you emphasize some of the things that the tech well will be quite happy to see the back of if they can like the competition
efforts to reign in tech. But both the control on immigration and indeed the measures against China stood to damage quite large parts of silicon value will certainly not be particularly in their interests. Are they Are they betting that Elon's going to be the Trump whisperer.
And I think we don't know.
And I think you've put your finger on what will be probably the most significant divide within the Trump rule and coalition, and that's the line of thought represented by Elon and his group of tech CEOs who are now in government or advising government. And then I guess traditional maga Steve Bannon and the like. And we're already seeing clashes on issues like deportation and a T one B visas, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
But I mean, you know, if you go back eight years ago, what we know about Trump is that he is he is, he can be influenced, and he's quite transactional.
And so when you saw.
The parade of CEOs like Tim Cook to the White House to carve out relief for companies like Apple, I think I think it often comes down to who is the loudest voice in his ear and who has he talked to most recently.
So it's a big big tech will be fine. Potentially big tech is betting they're fine. Small and medium sized tech and other businesses, and probably, I.
Mean, it really depends, you know. He said at one point that he thought Mark Zuckerberg should spend the rest of his life in jail. And now zuck Is is at the inauguration.
Today, will the attitude change?
You know, Elon's interests are in some ways quite opposed to Marx, and so if Elon does have the loudest voice in the room, maybe Mark's on a little bit of trouble.
Joe mentioned it at the beginning. It is kind of breathtaking the one eighty that corporate leaders seem to be doing on ESG on a lot of their net zero goals. We just saw the six largest US banks all quitting the UN sponsored net zero alliance and McDonald's, Walmart. They're rolling back all their DEI initiatives. Did they not mean it ever? Or is this the thing that's performative?
It is incredible. I will I'm slightly crossed with Lloyd blank Vine for using the monitor thing, which I've used countless times, but I advise everyone in this room to go look at it. It is the most incredible series of headlines that begin with the cannibal as escape from his hideout, he will never escape the mountains, and then it ends with the Emperor has arrived in Fontaine Lower with I
think this is imperial match just in fourteen days. But that is pretty much what has happened with Suddenly CEOs have jumped almost a medling and you can see it just in terms of the sort of things they talk about. They are moving back from things. I mean a lot that some of this is posturing. It's just in the same way as some of the diversity stuff maybe was posturing in one way. Now some of the retreat is
the same thing. They don't want to get called out for not taking profits as seriously as their rivals, and a lot of these things they can fiddle with just by changing the language a bit.
But globally, is there going to be a divide though, because I mean you've already seen it. We learned today actually the mess is not taking away all of the sort of moderating that it had outside of the US. How a big company is going to navigate that? Oh, I'm very green for the rest of the world, but I've given up on all my climate things in the.
I don't know what Brad. Brad may have different views on this, but I tend to think there are two different sort of things going on. One is the stuff to do with tech and this enormous increase in wealth, And if you look at throughout the history of commerce, there's always been times where industries shoot from being the people who everyone wants to be, whether you're Rockefeller and Morgan one hundred years ago, to suddenly being the malefactors
of great wealth. And notwithstanding the recent love in I think there is a real push to get the tech companies, which is most obvious in Europe because they're all American, but I think is generally there and it's going to have touch points. We've got a film coming out on the number of children who died because they'd be pushed towards suicide videos and things like that. There is a lot of nasty stuff around the tech companies per se, and that's one issue, and we'll see what happens on that,
and that's obviously slightly altered by Elon's presence. But the other one, more generally is business. I think on the whole. You know, most business people, there's quite a lot to gain from Trump if he does deregulate. Two big things they don't like is one the idea of immigration taking taking away workers they would need. And as Jenny was saying,
on tariffs, and that will be the area. But I do, yes, I do think there is a there are divides there and there will be a big divide between Europe and America. I think that's very difficult to avoid.
Have you seen, Jenny, have you seen sort of in the in Washington and elsewhere, anyone kind of standing up for DEI or well in climate I mean, there's a lot of support in Congress for still continuing to come up climate change.
Yeah, but there's only so much you can do when you're in the minority in both houses, so everything they say kind of goes into avoid. I don't see anything coming together as an actual initiative, you know, legislation they can't really pass without any Republicans, So it's sort of statements.
Yeah, And can I just add, I mean, for at least for tech CEOs, they have seen, they have watched as both the legal and the political environment shifted. So the Supreme Court struck down race based admissions at Harvard, you know, in terms of the political environment, just what seems to be like a full shift away from the principles of DEI. For a long time, they were criticized for creating a discriminatory environment.
They you know, did these.
Annual transparency reports around the makeup of their workforces and essentially showed no progress and got clobbered year after year. And so I do think there's a feeling of like genuine relief that they can, with political safety kind of retreat from some of these commitments.
And I think at least in the US, there's a realization that the population is.
A lot more conservative than what was if you look at poles surrounding like mass deportation. You know, generally it feels like, and the election demonstrated it, that the country is supporting some of.
These Trump ideals.
And so with that cover, the tech CEOs at least feel they're on safe ground to retreat from some of these things that always made them feel uncomfortable.
There had been a lot of hand ringing around the development of AI and how the training of the large language models and others on data was inherently biasing them in favor of you know, stereotypes that came alongside the DEI agenda, you know, concern about that. Do you think that's going to stay or do will companies now feel that I have to work about.
Well, Zuckerberg just promised a lot more masculine energy and the Facebook, so I don't look, I mean, I think we're going to still hear those critiques level at the tech companies, and I don't know if in this environment they will have as much traction as they once did.
So, Jenny, we have already talked implicitly about this, but I'm interested in how it feels as a reporter on
the ground. There's always been a lot of corporate interests behind the scenes, particularly in US politics and policy making, but a lot of people have been sort of taken aback by or found it jarring that just the very explicit corporate interests literally sitting behind the president as he gets inaugurated, the idea that policy is potentially being as affected by Elon Musk and his interests as any kind
of broader ideological agendas. How does that affect the way you're reporting and where the team's reporting.
Well, first of all, what was very different this time around was trum Ran his entire transition out of mar Lago, which obviously there's no access for press, so it was very hard to find out which CEOs he was dining with, and that matters to the policymaking or jobs. You know, everyone's there for a reason or an agenda, so that
was really different. It feels more explicit than it did eight years ago because he came out of the gate starting trade wars, and I remember talking to companies or their lobbyists in DC and everyone was terrified to be named in a tweet. So if you could just lay low and deal with him behind the scenes, that was sort of how big companies were approaching it last time around. This time around, it seems like everyone is explicitly kissing
the rank. The story you mentioned also had the good anecdote about the Coca Cola bottle in the end, they're made a special inauguration edition. So everyone is out there now on whatever truth, social X, any platform they can say I am meeting with Trump, I am close to Trump. That is much more explicit this time around. It obviously will create I think instability in the way that every single person that can go into the White House or
to mar A Lago to spend the weekend. There can't shift policy on the fly, so it might be for US reporters we might actually have a solid story but are unaware that the president is having dinner in mar A Lago with you name it and then completely shift his policies. So I think the pace was already very fast last time around, but the mar A Lago addition, I think an access to this time around will be could be more challenging and more interesting to figure out how we well.
It's true that we'd had an economic statecraft team pretty much since Trump got elected the first time, and this time is very much or at least alongside that, we also have the corporate statecraft team, and I guess we'll see how they both do. I mean, John I said at the start that in a sense, this was many people on the outside of the US to say, well,
this is nothing new. There's always been a lot of business interests involved in US policy, and there's plenty of people I've spoken to international policy makers, particularly, I would say, in what you might call the global South, who say, thank goodness, we now have a nakedly transactional president. You know, in America is on the world stage admitting that it's totally self interested and it's just out for its own interest, just like every other country, and it's not pretending to
have all these high ideals. You know, this is a government I can do business with.
I think there is a degree of that, definitely, you can feel it. The only thing is on that I sort of be careful what you wish for, because in general, that world of free trade and globalization which people like me supported and which I think Donald Trump said I was wrong about everything all my life, specially tariff, especially tarist, but that was a world that enriched the poorer world, and I think from that point of view, the global
South would be ill advised to celebrate this thing. I can see why that if you are a copper magnate in some place, this might sound great in the short term. And yes, it is perhaps more honest than some of the talk about talking about freedom and then coming in to beat people up behind it. But I think you have to be careful what you wish for. I did listen to Jenny and a bit. It did strike me that some of this stuff could reverse relatively quickly. On Trump,
you know, he does deeply believe in tariffs. I think it's always been a been a constancy of his. So at some point there is going to be an argument with the tech people on Trump and Elon at some point that could come apart, and more generally, I think on things like DEI and greenery without signing too sort of bled about it, there are other forces that will keep pushing it forward. One is just the pressure from investors, which I don't think will change that much in terms
of different categories. Secondly, it is on climate change. You just have the fact that we have to deal with the climate, and I think lots of people see that. I think at the end, yes, you might see changes, but I think I would still expect corporations will retreat from some of the more publicly extreme versions of DEIS you might put it. But I don't think that's going
to be. It's not going to go all the way back to how it was in the nineteen fifties, where a group of white men sat and decided everything.
And in short term, I think the biggest thing internationally that people will be dealing with is the global financial side effects of everyone betting on a sort of super sore away America that potentially has unsustainable growth but certainly inflicts higher costs of borrowing.
You already see the bond rate, the bomb market. I think I've put a Trump in the bond market will police you, and that seems to be what's happening. Seems to be the one thing he's frightened of is if the bomb market turns on you. That that's something that people can see. And so far Trump has always focused We had a very good bit and the last edition of Trump andomics on this. Trump is always focused on
the stock market. If you're running a government to the end, it's the bomb market, which probably matters more.
Jenny, I can't help mentioning we've sort of got you mid Atlantic almost because although you're still technically in DC, you will be moving to Berlin. And I've sort of intrigued how you think reporting this story from Europe. I mean, I've said you have to still be on the phone to Washington a lot. You'll be kind of covering both sides. But how do you think the Europeans will be dealing with this agenda?
From my reporting right now, I would say they're not as prepared as they should be. This is a little wonky, but there is a big trade case that the Europeans brought against China. You might remember China used economic version against Lithuania. It was about them opening a Taiwan trade office.
This has been in the works the entire Biden administration, with lots of support from the Biden administration, and they are seems set to withdrawa case which we reported last week was angering the Trump team because it reinforces their belief that the Europeans are weak and they're not willing to stand up to China, and Brussels is not willing to defend one of its member states, and arguably a smaller one. So I will be on the phone with
people in Washington. I think I will be on the phone with people in different capitals and the people that Trump sens there.
On this sort of transactionalism. I mean, if there's goment, there are some governments around the world who think, okay, this is quite a straightforward thing. We just have to work out how to sell something to Trump, how could make it be in his interest. Europeans maybe they're a lot that they're not so good.
At being transactional.
They're a little bit slow compared to the Trump timeline, So I think if something gels and Brussels, Trump has moved on to a new demand. So the transactional nature I think really works well with countries one on one. I think Trump obviously seems really close to Jorgo Maloney, so he will find an ally and her and Victor orban. But once you actually have to respond as a body in Brussels, I don't know how well that's going to work with the transactional So I could foresee a bunch
of fights in Europe on how to respond. Do you stand up to him if he threatens tariffs or can you work out something else that's good for your country.
I mean John has been an orgy of sort of talking Europe down, one could say, in response to the to the Donald Trump's victory, and also what's happened in financial markets, and just an enormous spotlight on whether it's the lack of defense spending, just the lack of speed and coming up to coming up with anything. Lack of speed when it comes to the economy for sure, any.
Positive opportunities and there maybe if I was an investor, I would be a lot richer than I am. But there may be a kind of buying opportunity to the extent that Europe is so written down, but it's on the face of it, it's hard not to see all these pessimistic things about Europe and not add more because I think you look at it for exactly the reasons Jenny said. They're going to have this question about whether they deal within through the European Union, which they are
supposed to do on trade things. But you know he will start the way he acts the where you talked to him. He will immediately start ringing Macrol rather than particularly going to Brussels. He's not going to pay much
attention to that. But to me, I went to a meeting the other day where a group of bradslot came across to see European politicians, and the message they basically said is you have no idea about Trump, but you are comparatively well informed about Trump compared with AI, because you have no idea what AI is going to do to the economy, you have no companies that are involved in this, You have nothing that you can really show
the world in this. There isn't anything in continental Europe that we even think about, and so I think that is almost small friendly. I'm slightly setting bread up to say how great Europe is. I certainly yeah.
My effort to get anything out of you, but it was positive on your is completely failed.
I don't know.
I look hopefully towards Brad, but I'm not sure i'll get a better answer.
Well, I mean, Europe does have a couple of interesting AI companies, including.
Which is great, but it is very, very small compared with ending in America.
But it is interesting that a lot of the leaders of these AI companies are predicting that will we will achieve the next benchmark superintelligence or AGI in the next four years and so that you know, monumental economic and social change. And we can debate what it is will happen on Trump's watch.
And does it matter in your world that money is much more expensive because it's going to get the cost of finances going up.
I don't know that it matters.
I think I think that's a that's an industry that is, you know, focused on creating the next thing, and you know, to them and we'll see if it's true and overly optimistic, but they believe that, you know, Trump is making it safe again for business.
So in a year's time. I mean hopefully no one here will remember what you said, and you know things it will just go on the internet.
I mean, you know no one will listen to it.
What do you think will be Brad, What do you first, what do you think we'll be talking about?
Well, we'll be talking about Trump, right, because first role of Trump is that you must always talk about Donald Trump. I think in one year, this honeymoon period where he has assembled a very broad coalition of supporters and partners.
And allies, I think that will end.
You know that that may not even last the next few weeks or is as long as the first you know, truly ambitious and.
Aggressive executive action.
I think you know, we've had the hottest year on record now for the past few years, so we we will almost undoubtedly still be talking about climate change and whether AI and the requirements data center usage or making the problems worse rather than better. And then knock on wood, last thing I think we might you know, be talking about global conflict. I mean, in the short term, we're seeing the sunsetting of the of the war in Gaza,
maybe some prospects for the war in Ukraine. But if we're talking about a deglobalized world, where America is pulling back as the world's policeman. Then you know, power uphoors a vacuum, and I worry what the next four years brings in that.
Regard, Jenny, that's taken a quite a lot of ground for what we'll talk about nam certainly that's the classic, well.
All the all the hopefully not a virus. I think tariffs, tariffs will be Trump's going to be tariff man again. I think in the year's time we see him probably shift on China or his global tariff. He's probably going to do something with the Canada Mexico agreement, rip that up, which that will cause a lot of instability. So yeah, I think tariffs will be on everyone's mind.
Again.
Jenny doesn't always like me quoting her back on this, but I am struck by your answer. And when You've got one of your many scoops a few years ago, and I said, quite early in Trump's term, and I've complimented you, and you came back saying, never a dull moment in national trade policy, which I had to reply, oh, there really have been, but you came into it at a very good time exactly, John, what will we be talking about.
Well, basically, I think Jenny and Brad has said all the main ones. I sort of agree with Jenny that I think that the trade thing will come back in because Trump cares about that. And I think also the China thing will heat up again. It has to, because I think it is the one thing where you can unite America. You might be able to unite America and Europe, and that by definition brings in both of those sides. I think the main thing, and it's a very bad
cop out, is all the unexpected things. If you went back a month ago, whoever thought that South Korea would go crazy or that we'd all be looking at pictures of Pacific palisades? And the element about being president and Trump discovered it in the first Its first rain with COVID is that you get surprised by things that come at you from the other side of the world Greenland Greenland exactly, or places you decide to invade just for the hell of it. Those but it will be that
kind of thing. And you add in on top of it all the difficulties of Trump that Trump causes anyone who tries to predict things. If you go to China, and you meet some very bright people whose job it is to try and explain what's happening in America to Xijingping. I think for them, the first Trump presidency was a complete nightmare because every morning they woke up to discover these tweets landing on them with places that they had
never ever thought of. It's hard to imagine that Jijingping was thinking about the Panamaketer Canal and Greenland just a few weeks ago, but now someone in Beijing is having to muster on that. The obvious answers, what do you think?
You've said it so well, John, and we've run out of time.
It's such a shame.
But we have been at various times while we record this, I should say that we've been watching footage from Washington, the both the outgoing and the incoming president getting into the motorcade and heading heading for the inauguration, people people filing in, and you kind of get the sense that people will be watching DC in various ways throughout this World Economic Forum because his return casts such a shadow or a spotlight on this, depending on what you think.
But thank you very much to all of you, to Brad, to Jenny, to John and all of you in the audience for joining us for this only second ever episode of trump Andomics from Bloomberg. We hope all of you here enjoyed it and those of you listening raped it very highly and review it. It was hosted by me, Stephanie Flanders, and I was joined by Bradstone, Jenny Leonard and John Wikelthwaite. Thanks very much, Thank you.